BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[/B/utterfree]

Well, if PS! weren't down at the moment, I'd be making a Sun team to test the playstyle's merit in this apparently "new" metagame. I've already crafted a Hail team and will probably be playing with those two weathers, unless it's a replication of my Parasect Dark Horse team, in which Rain will obviously be played. Aside from that, I'll probably also be handling Sand at some point to see if I can reliably run Stoutland in OU like I had been doing back in pre-Excadrill ban OU (fuck yea Fire Fang). Along with Hippopowdon, too, just to be different and not have a bad Fighting-type weakness in my weather setter.

 

[alexwolf]

Ferro is a pain for rain teams to face, but I find that it is actually hindered by opposing Ferrothorn (bear with me a minute) Let's think about Ferrothorn for a minute. It has a superb defensive typing, decent Attack, great defenses, and a terrible Speed stat that Gyro Ball takes advantage of.

So what's the main problem it has? Opposing Grass types. They cut off its main form of recovery (Leech Seed) and some don't even care about paralysis (think Celebi and Ferrothorn) I find that as long as you can keep hitting Ferrothorn hard on the switch and just quickly bringing in a Grass type to face it, then you can slowly defeat it without too many problems. Even if it's a resisted hit, it'll do damage coming from offensive Pokemon.

For rain teams, things like Thundurus-T, Politoed, Haxorus, and Keldeo come to mind as strong offensive forces that Ferrothorn might think about coming in on. Repeated hits from them without Leech Seed recovery will eventually wear down Ferrothorn and allow one of those offensive forces to get going without having to worry about predicting a Ferrothorn switch-in as it'll be too weak to endure their hits anymore.

There is a problem with what you are saying. You assume that the Ferrothorn user will just attack or try to status you, which will indeed result as a free switch-in to said pokes. But if the Ferrothorn user instead spams hazards, then your own Ferrothorn will do nothing more than force you to forfeit any momentum you had, as no matter what you do your opponent will be one step ahead of you. Do you bring in your Ferrothorn to wall mine? Ok, i will set-up my hazards as you switch in, and then i have the upper hand, as your poke's main job (setting up hazards) isn't accomplished, while my poke's job is (in this case the same job), so i can act accordingly. Of 'course rain teams have their ways around Ferrothorn, and every damage done to Ferro matters, as he lacks reliable recovery, but this doesn't mean that every bit of damage you do to Ferro is for free. For every bit of damage you do to him, he gives you back a layer of hazards. And this is what makes him so hard to face for rain teams.

 

[shofly12]

Well, if PS! weren't down at the moment, I'd be making a Sun team to test the playstyle's merit in this apparently "new" metagame. I've already crafted a Hail team and will probably be playing with those two weathers, unless it's a replication of my Parasect Dark Horse team, in which Rain will obviously be played. Aside from that, I'll probably also be handling Sand at some point to see if I can reliably run Stoutland in OU like I had been doing back in pre-Excadrill ban OU (fuck yea Fire Fang). Along with Hippopowdon, too, just to be different and not have a bad Fighting-type weakness in my weather setter.

Sun is actually an awesome style to be playing. :D. im testing a sun team tight now and it works really well.

 

[DrDLO]

Has anyone though about the use of Toxicroak in this meta? It does have mediocre speed and suffers from 4MSS but it can handle a lot of the threats in the current meta. Running it at jolly allows it to outspeed and OHKO jolly 4/0 Mamoswine (edit: with cross chop even without rocks), 2HKO ferrothorn or threaten it out. With ice punch it can catch the therians on the switch and KO if they stay in with sucker punch...Just wondering. Used to use it early in BW but haven't tested it yet.

 

[Electrolyte]

Has anyone though about the use of Toxicroak in this meta? It does have mediocre speed and suffers from 4MSS but it can handle a lot of the threats in the current meta. Running it at jolly allows it to outspeed and OHKO jolly 4/0 Mamoswine (edit: with cross chop even without rocks), 2HKO ferrothorn or threaten it out. With ice punch it can catch the therians on the switch and KO if they stay in with sucker punch...Just wondering. Used to use it early in BW but haven't tested it yet.

Say hello to Tornadus-T. OHKO with Hurricane in Toxicroak's own domain, rain. Thunurus-T also OHKO's with specs Thunder in Croak's favorite weather. It's not that Toxicroak is not a useful pokemon; it's just the influx of new BW2 pokemon have given it new, extremely popular counters that make it's stand up on the usage list very low.

 

[Shouting]

For what it's worth, +2 Sucker Punch has a good chance of OHKOing both of them after Stealth Rock damage, so they are not completely safe. Tornadus-T also generally has no way of getting around it either (it runs all 4 attacking moves pretty much) Although Thundurus-T can get around it, it can only do Nasty Plot, as Life Orb Thunder from Agility sets will never OHKO.

You can also hit them on the switch with Ice Punch. They are checks but not very good ones. Toxicroak is pretty good right now. However I would not use it on a weatherless or sandstorm to "combat rain."

 

[wobbahax]

For what it's worth, +2 Sucker Punch has a good chance of OHKOing both of them after Stealth Rock damage, so they are not completely safe. Tornadus-T also generally has no way of getting around it either (it runs all 4 attacking moves pretty much) Although Thundurus-T can get around it, it can only do Nasty Plot, as Life Orb Thunder from Agility sets will never OHKO.

You can also hit them on the switch with Ice Punch. They are checks but not very good ones. Toxicroak is pretty good right now. However I would not use it on a weatherless or sandstorm to "combat rain."

It can OHKO... even skarmory's brave bird can OHKO. Also, you'll probably get OHKO'd before you can get the +2 by even neutral jolteon, also gliscor can completely wall this set (even with ice punch. and OHKO with earthquake. Why you would ice punch on the switch i don't know, because ice is an inferior offensive type; most of the time, you wouldn't. A hurrican 100% accuracy is always going to OHKO.

Also, toxicroak is like a speed bump for sun teams. Gets OHKO'd in sun by fire hits... dry skin. So yeah, unless you're really good at manipulating your weather, even then you still have to watch out for rain abusers- It's simply too hard to play and pokes like the therian formes, scizor, and keldeo's group are all used over such hard-to-play pokemon.

 

[R7Rules]

Has anyone though about the use of Toxicroak in this meta? It does have mediocre speed and suffers from 4MSS but it can handle a lot of the threats in the current meta. Running it at jolly allows it to outspeed and OHKO jolly 4/0 Mamoswine (edit: with cross chop even without rocks), 2HKO ferrothorn or threaten it out. With ice punch it can catch the therians on the switch and KO if they stay in with sucker punch...Just wondering. Used to use it early in BW but haven't tested it yet.

Toxicroak has completely lost its viability now and is incredibly hard to use. Although the Tornadus-T hype is dying down, it won't live through a Hurricane from Tornadus-T and considering Toxicroak is only used in the rain, you have a picture perfect Toxicroak counter.

Talking of Tornadus-T, its drop to special attack is very noticable, as people use Hurricane expecting the OHKO on Terrakion, like Normal Tornadus would but find it only scores A 2HKO on Terrakion, leaving Tornadus with a STAB Stone Edge to face up to... coming off its whopping 129 Attack stat. It also has Rotom-W on VoltTurn and Thundurus-T running around the tier, which it can't deal with. All in all, I think that Tornadus-T, will end up getting noticably outclassed by Tornadus-I, due to its higher Special Attack and Prankster, an ability that Tornadus-T solely misses, despite having Regenerator.

 

[Shouting]

It can OHKO... even skarmory's brave bird can OHKO. Also, you'll probably get OHKO'd before you can get the +2 by even neutral jolteon, also gliscor can completely wall this set (even with ice punch. and OHKO with earthquake. Why you would ice punch on the switch i don't know, because ice is an inferior offensive type; most of the time, you wouldn't. A hurrican 100% accuracy is always going to OHKO.

Also, toxicroak is like a speed bump for sun teams. Gets OHKO'd in sun by fire hits... dry skin. So yeah, unless you're really good at manipulating your weather, even then you still have to watch out for rain abusers- It's simply too hard to play and pokes like the therian formes, scizor, and keldeo's group are all used over such hard-to-play pokemon.

Well, ideally Sucker Punch would hit them before they hurricane / Thunder, etc. Jolteon always gets OHKO'd by Sucker Punch, Gliscor is OHKO'd by Ice Punch (even without Stealth Rock!) and is rarely faster than Toxicroak (unless it is offensive Acrobatics set.) Skarmory is also cleanly 2HKO'd by Cross Chop, although it is a little risky to stay in but it could pay off.

Toxicroak does not do very well against Sun of course, but it can at least come in on a grass move and finish something off with sucker punch. But, for the most part, Keldeo is destroyed by Sun yet that does not hurt it's popularity.

So, Toxicroak is not the best poke around right now, but if does a good job of switching in on powerful water moves that most offensive rain teams seem to be weak to.

 

[Electrolyte]

Toxicroak has completely lost its viability now and is incredibly hard to face. Although the Tornadus-T hype is dying down, it won't live through a Hurricane from Tornadus-T and considering Toxicroak is only used in the rain, you have a picture perfect Toxicroak counter.

Talking of Tornadus-T, its drop to special attack is very noticable, as people use Hurricane expecting the OHKO on Terrakion, like Normal Tornadus would but find it only scores A 2HKO on Terrakion, leaving Tornadus with a STAB Stone Edge to face up to... coming off its whopping 129 Attack stat. It also has Rotom-W on VoltTurn and Thundurus-T running around the tier, which it can't deal with. All in all, I think that Tornadus-T, will end up getting noticably outclassed by Tornadus-I, due to its higher Special Attack and Prankster, an ability that Tornadus-T solely misses, despite having Regenerator.

Tornadus-I and Tornadus-T are two very different pokemon that are used very differently. Tornadus-T can don specs, boosting its power beyond Tornadus-I, and it doesn't have to worry about being outsped too often.
Tornadus-I is more of a scarfer; it has enough power, however it's speed is a bit lacking, so many times it will sack Specs for a Scarf. Also, when not runnning choice, it heavily depends on Prankster, so it generally runs boosting sets more than Tornadus-T. Because of its high speed and access to U-turn, Tornadus-T does not usually stay in nearly as long as Tornadus-I does.
Both have their niches and are used very differently; I doubt either will have less usage because the other is "better".

 

[Tobes]

Substitute Toxicroak, whether it's a Bulk Up / Drain Punch / Ice Punch or a Focus Punch / Ice Punch / filler moveset, is still pretty viable imo, and I've seen it used to good effect in this meta. It can set up on the likes of Ferrothorn, Choice-locked Keldeo, Politoed (the fact that Scarf Toed is becoming more popular to combat Tornadus-T only helps this), etc., and Tornadus-T is a bit leery of taking on Toxicroak with a Sub up.

For example:

Adamant 252 Atk LO Toxicroak Ice Punch vs 0/4 Tornadus-T: 81.6% - 96.3% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252 Atk Toxicroak Ice Punch vs 0/4 Tornadus-T: 62.9% - 74.2%
252 Atk Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs 0/4 Tornadus-T: 33.4% - 39.5% (Nearly guaranteed follow-up KO)

 

[Skore]

Is it me or are people relying on Scald burns and Serene Grace para-hax as the main means of status these days?

I can't remember the last time someone actually used W-o-W or T-Wave on me.

You still get the occasional Toxic thrown out by walls but with the decline of Spikes and T-Spikes use it seems that Every Single Turn these days needs to be an offensive move to secure a win.

 

[Patolegend!]

Substitute Toxicroak, whether it's a Bulk Up / Drain Punch / Ice Punch or a Focus Punch / Ice Punch / filler moveset, is still pretty viable imo, and I've seen it used to good effect in this meta. It can set up on the likes of Ferrothorn, Choice-locked Keldeo, Politoed (the fact that Scarf Toed is becoming more popular to combat Tornadus-T only helps this), etc., and Tornadus-T is a bit leery of taking on Toxicroak with a Sub up.

For example:

Adamant 252 Atk LO Toxicroak Ice Punch vs 0/4 Tornadus-T: 81.6% - 96.3% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252 Atk Toxicroak Ice Punch vs 0/4 Tornadus-T: 62.9% - 74.2%
252 Atk Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs 0/4 Tornadus-T: 33.4% - 39.5% (Nearly guaranteed follow-up KO)

Just to back this up, I've been using Adamant LO SD croak, and he's a beast. With rocks up, Tornadus-T isn't getting past Sucker Punch:

Adamant 252 Atk +2 LO Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs 0/4 Tornadus-T 86.66 - 102.33%. Assuming the SD on the switch, Tornadus won't be hurricaning croak for 8 turns.

Croak is also ace against keldeo, while doing outspeeding and doing serious damage to Breloom and Amoonguss with Ice Punch, major offensive and defensive threats respectively.

He easily gets an SD up against Toad with toxic (in 3 turns of Perish Song, something's going down) Choice locked Rotom, Tentacruel (doesn't even fear scald burn), and ferrothorn/blissey/chansey, among others.

He also resists Terrakion's STAB moves, as a bonus, and SR.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Is it me or are people relying on Scald burns and Serene Grace para-hax as the main means of status these days?

I can't remember the last time someone actually used W-o-W or T-Wave on me.

You still get the occasional Toxic thrown out by walls but with the decline of Spikes and T-Spikes use it seems that Every Single Turn these days needs to be an offensive move to secure a win.

I am still using Will-O-Wisp on my Jellicent to stall the opponent with Taunt and Recover, and this is actually a very effective strategy even in such fast metagame, and even against special attackers. I am still also using Thunder Wave on my Ferrothorn.

I think that this is only you, because I still see many people using non-damaging moves to inflict status. You don't need to always use offensive moves, but it's hard to use a team with many non-offensive pokémons nowadays.

 

[Electrolyte]

Is it me or are people relying on Scald burns and Serene Grace para-hax as the main means of status these days?

I can't remember the last time someone actually used W-o-W or T-Wave on me.

You still get the occasional Toxic thrown out by walls but with the decline of Spikes and T-Spikes use it seems that Every Single Turn these days needs to be an offensive move to secure a win.

The fall of parahax might be because people are using SubCM Jirachi much more now; it's the main Jirachi set I've seen since BW2 was released.
Being super offensive like that is often a trainer's biggest mistake. Not all teams can handle just firing off shots every turn. I run a stall team to great effect; many players don't even know how to bypass Toxic/Protect/Wish Blissey anymore. This metagame is becoming so offensive. I run spikes on my team, and when +3 layers are up and my opponent's spinner is gone, I can just send in a bulky phazer and the match is basically mine.

 

[Buttobi]

I don't know if this was mentioned already but kyurem got some neat tutor moves too. He works much better now in OU thanks to moves like roost and earth power. The set I use the most on kyurem is a sub-roost set. It works really well on stall teams. But one thing I always have a hard time with choosing between is running ice beam on kyurem on an abti-weather team or running blizzard on him in a hail team.

 

[Bossness]

Ice beam is always the better choice on a subroost set. It has more pp and hits more pokemon super-effectively than dragon pulse. The only dragon that is neutral to ice in OU is Kingdra.

 

[Shouting]

If you're using Sub-Roost, you're probably better off using Dragon Pulse and Earth Power than Ice Beam and Earth Power. You aren't walled by Rotom-W, you get a much better hit on waters. The only thing you really lose out on is Amoongus, which isn't on Rain Teams to begin with and can't break the substitute anyway.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Now it's me that is wondering: It appears that people aren't remembering the new tutor moves that came with B2W2? I am saying this because it appears that people aren't aware that Conkeldurr, for example, learns Ice Punch, wich means that Gliscor is not the same threat that it used to be... Until now, I didn't saw any Conkeldurr with Ice Punch. I didn't even saw Haxorus with Aqua Tail, and people were talking a lot about Haxorus using Aqua Tail - I am still seeing the same old Haxorus with Outrage and Earthquake combination + Brick Break, but not Aqua Tail. The only thing that I saw, was a Simisage with Gunk Shot (lol).

I didn't saw Ferrothorn with the famous, but, until recently, impossible combination of Stealth Rock + Spikes + Leech Seed, but that's justifiable, as this combination isn't as effective as it sounds to be.

 

[superbadd]

I love sub-roost kyurem. I run it with a life orb set so that way it can dish out more damage. Its speed it still a major issue. Being out speed by shit lke hydreigon. -.- I'm aware that ice beam hits more pokes for super effective damage, but it is better to get more neutral coverage with dragon pulse? Being cockblockd by bulky waters is kinda annoying.

 

[Shouting]

Stealth Rock-Leech Seed-Spikes is too much for Ferrothorn I find. You really don't have the chance to lay them all down, and you're attempting to do too much with a single pokemon, when you miss out on a STAB move. If you go without Gyro Ball, it's walled by Dragons.

Fighting and Dark/Rock coverage is generally better than Fighting and Ice. You miss out on Psychics or Volcarona/Gyarados, meanwhile the only thing you really benefit from using Ice Punch is Gliscor and Landorus-T. It's really only good on Choice Band or something like that, since payback isn't as useful in that case. But I agree with you in that I haven't really seen any Super Power Hydregion or Dragonite yet though.

 

[wobbahax]

Well, ideally Sucker Punch would hit them before they hurricane / Thunder, etc. Jolteon always gets OHKO'd by Sucker Punch, Gliscor is OHKO'd by Ice Punch (even without Stealth Rock!) and is rarely faster than Toxicroak (unless it is offensive Acrobatics set.) Skarmory is also cleanly 2HKO'd by Cross Chop, although it is a little risky to stay in but it could pay off.

Toxicroak does not do very well against Sun of course, but it can at least come in on a grass move and finish something off with sucker punch. But, for the most part, Keldeo is destroyed by Sun yet that does not hurt it's popularity.

So, Toxicroak is not the best poke around right now, but if does a good job of switching in on powerful water moves that most offensive rain teams seem to be weak to.

No, Keldeo isn/t destroyed by sun, he doesnt take damage from the sun and fire moves don/t do extra damage.

Gliscor is NEVER OHKO'd by Ice punch. It does 28.81% max. Also, without stealth rock like you mentioned, it has a less then 1/3 chance to 2HKO. Following that, Gliscor has base 95 spe>85 for toxicroak. Toxicroak doesn/t even invest in speed for the bulk up and subPunch sets.

Jolteon never gets OHKO'd by sucker punch. 46.4%-54.9%.

Skarmory has a 0% chance to get 2HKO'd by a +2 Cross chop. In sandstorm and stealth rock, a 1.25% chance.
Following this:
0 Atk Gliscor vs 4/0 Toxicroak: 77-91%
0 Atk Skarmory vs 4/0 Toxicroak:79-94%
And according to the description on smogon, jolteon always OHKOs Toxicroak.

Please check your calculations.. if anything they are made up.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Stealth Rock-Leech Seed-Spikes is too much for Ferrothorn I find. You really don't have the chance to lay them all down, and you're attempting to do too much with a single pokemon, when you miss out on a STAB move. If you go without Gyro Ball, it's walled by Dragons.

Fighting and Dark/Rock coverage is generally better than Fighting and Ice. You miss out on Psychics or Volcarona/Gyarados, meanwhile the only thing you really benefit from using Ice Punch is Gliscor and Landorus-T. It's really only good on Choice Band or something like that, since payback isn't as useful in that case. But I agree with you in that I haven't really seen any Super Power Hydregion or Dragonite yet though.

I am saying that this combination is not effective, but I am actually not using neither Spikes nor Gyro Ball. Instead, I am using Stealth Rock/Thunder Wave/Leech Seed/Power Whip. This set is walled by many things, but it's still effective. Also, it doesn't always matter if the opponent resists Grass as with a combination of sandstorm damage and Leech Seed (and possible burn damage from Jellicent's Will-O-Wisp as well) I can slowy wear down the opponent while being healed. This combination is good, but it isn't meant to have a good coverage; it's going to be walled by many things.

After all, people were talking so much about Stealth Rock + Spikes + Leech Seed, and in the end, this combination showed to be bad.

On a Conkeldurr with Flame Orb, you could use Ice Punch instead of Facade to hit Gliscor harder, but that's about it, as you miss a hit on threats like Gyarados and Landorus-T.

Are people aware of the new moves? Or Smogon needs to update it's sets first before people are aware that Haxorus can learn Aqua Tail, Conkeldurr can learn Ice Punch, Dragonite can learn Superpower, and etc?

 

[G-Von]

No, Keldeo isn/t destroyed by sun, he doesnt take damage from the sun and fire moves don/t do extra damage.

Gliscor is NEVER OHKO'd by Ice punch. It does 28.81% max. Also, without stealth rock like you mentioned, it has a less then 1/3 chance to 2HKO. Following that, Gliscor has base 95 spe>85 for toxicroak. Toxicroak doesn/t even invest in speed for the bulk up and subPunch sets.

Jolteon never gets OHKO'd by sucker punch. 46.4%-54.9%.

Skarmory has a 0% chance to get 2HKO'd by a +2 Cross chop. In sandstorm and stealth rock, a 1.25% chance.
Following this:
0 Atk Gliscor vs 4/0 Toxicroak: 77-91%
0 Atk Skarmory vs 4/0 Toxicroak:79-94%
And according to the description on smogon, jolteon always OHKOs Toxicroak.

Please check your calculations.. if anything they are made up.

A neutral-natured, non-attack boosting item 252 attack toxicroak against a 252/252+ gliscor does 180 - 212 of 354 HP ALWAYS 2HKOing with no hazards.

I have no idea where you got that 28.81% max from (unless toxicroak was burned), but I would start using a different damage calculator if I were you.

EDIT: LMAO, thank you CrAZyMONkeYZ for going into more detail than i wanted to. Your 200th post was awesome.

 

[CrAZyMONkeYZ]

No, Keldeo isn/t destroyed by sun, he doesnt take damage from the sun and fire moves don/t do extra damage.

Gliscor is NEVER OHKO'd by Ice punch. It does 28.81% max. Also, without stealth rock like you mentioned, it has a less then 1/3 chance to 2HKO. Following that, Gliscor has base 95 spe>85 for toxicroak. Toxicroak doesn/t even invest in speed for the bulk up and subPunch sets.

Jolteon never gets OHKO'd by sucker punch. 46.4%-54.9%.

Skarmory has a 0% chance to get 2HKO'd by a +2 Cross chop. In sandstorm and stealth rock, a 1.25% chance.
Following this:
0 Atk Gliscor vs 4/0 Toxicroak: 77-91%
0 Atk Skarmory vs 4/0 Toxicroak:79-94%
And according to the description on smogon, jolteon always OHKOs Toxicroak.

Please check your calculations.. if anything they are made up.

Okay, usually I don't post but the stupidity of this post is too damn high.

I'm pretty sure you're the one with the messed up calcs or forgot to add ev's/natures/something.

Toxicroak (252 EVs, +Nature) Ice Punch vs Gliscor (252/252 EVs, +Nature): 55.3 ~ 65.5% (196 ~ 232 HP) 28.81% max? I think not.
Toxicroak (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) Ice Punch vs Gliscor (252/252 EVs, +Nature): 108.4 ~ 128.8% (384 ~ 456 HP) Always OHKO@+2
Toxicroak (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) Sucker Punch vs Jolteon (4/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 92.2 ~ 108.8% (251 ~ 296 HP) 57% to OHKO
Toxicroak (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) Cross Chop vs Skarmory (252/252 EVs, +Nature): 53.2 ~ 62.8% (178 ~ 210 HP) 0% to 2HKO? I don't think so
Also,
Gliscor (0 EVs, Neutral Nature) Acrobatics vs Toxicroak (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 52.7 ~ 62.5% (162 ~ 192 HP) This is at half power
Skarmory (0 EVs, Neutral Nature) Brave Bird vs Toxicroak (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 99.6 ~ 117.9% (306 ~ 362 HP)

CAN NONE OF YOUR CALCS BE CORRECT?