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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
Anyone see Heracross coming in to give Terrakion some competition this meta game around? Yes, there are differences Moxie>Justified, but the Choice sets are common in move sets so what they check is their similiar point. Aslo the item being used.
Heracross doesn't have Terrakion's excellent combination of Speed and Attack. Sure, Heracross can use a Scarf set with Moxie, but Terrakion can also use a Scarf set that's much harder to revenge kill (85 Speed or whatever isn't doing Cross any favors). Heracross doesn't have excellent STAB coverage like Terrakion does, since Megahorn is resisted by many common walls. GutsCross is worn down incredibly easily.
Basically, Heracross can't compete with Terrakion.
Basically, Heracross can't compete with Terrakion.
lol Genesect and Scizor are completely comparable to each other. At the end of the day, both of them are Bug/Steel type Pokemon who are used to obtain switch advantage. A very good indication of their compatibility is the Pokemon they are partnered with. Those little advantages/deviations is what makes you to be able to compare them.
Yeah I completely agree with Pillsbury. At the end of the day, using both Genesect and Scizor on the same team is terrible, because their roles are incredibly similar (no matter how many times people point out the objective differences between them). So, people have to choose one of them, and most of the time Genesect is going to be the better choice. Note I'm just comparing CB to CS here.
I would say that they aren't so similar. Genesect doesn't have the same priority, trapping and boosting that Scizor has. Genesect will be using coverage elemental moves while Scizor will be using it's STABs to muscle its way around the opposition.
But I am not going to say that they are similar only because of tipying. Both Forretress and Scizor are Bug/Steel, but they have completely different roles. Forretress is a wall, spinner and hazard setter, while Scizor is a sweeper, trapper and revenge killer. Conversely, Ferrothorn and Forretress shouldn't be used on the same team; Forretress is Grass, not Bug. But then we have two pokémons with similar roles.
But I also don't like using two pokés with the same tipying on the same team. You would need to seriously cover their weakness.
But I am not going to say that they are similar only because of tipying. Both Forretress and Scizor are Bug/Steel, but they have completely different roles. Forretress is a wall, spinner and hazard setter, while Scizor is a sweeper, trapper and revenge killer. Conversely, Ferrothorn and Forretress shouldn't be used on the same team; Forretress is Grass, not Bug. But then we have two pokémons with similar roles.
But I also don't like using two pokés with the same tipying on the same team. You would need to seriously cover their weakness.
Having both your U-Turners share similar defenses and the same typing on one team is simply a terrible idea. They are not Dragons. The Utility of having both on one team is non-existent unless you're running like Mono Bug.
Their roles aren't the same. But they have overlap. That overlap isn't something like being a Dragon where you can just really ignore if you have team synergy. Don't run the two on one team, use another U-Turner or Volt Switcher rather than both.
Their roles aren't the same. But they have overlap. That overlap isn't something like being a Dragon where you can just really ignore if you have team synergy. Don't run the two on one team, use another U-Turner or Volt Switcher rather than both.
k internet is acting up on me, so apologies if i double post
basically, what ultimario said. I've made my feelings on this matter clear already - other than u-turn and typing, I don't see much overlap between scizor and genesect, if any at all. But regardless of my opinion of Scizor, that typing overlap kind of matters a lot if you're going to use them on the same team. using two mons on your team that are both 4x weak to a single type is generally a terrible idea, no matter what mons they are. Dragons can sometimes get away with it because very few mons are solid counters to dragons and you're unlikely to see multiple of those mons on the same team because that stacks up steel typings. This is a time-honored strategy. But even so, it must be recognized when running double dragons that you're making your team pretty ice-weak, and dragon-weak as well. It's the same for Scizor and Genesect. Running a double 4x fire weakness leaves a hole in your team's type synergy.
The fact that Genesect and Scizor have some role overlap as u-turners is not a problem for me - in fact, if they didn't have the same typing, I'd gladly run them both on the same team, assuming I had a team that called for two u-turners. That's what volt-turn is about, after all - it's about running multiple mons that learn volt switch and u-turn on the same team. However, volt-turn is also about countering one another's counters, and taking out each other's checks. Genesect and Scizor definitely do not counter one another's counters since they both have a huge weakness to fire, so that volt-turn synergy that's so famous between rotom-w and scizor is kind of missing here. it's suicidal to run u-turners/voltswitchers that share weaknesses. And on any team, stacking up weaknesses is kind of a terrible idea. I don't see it having much to do with the role similarities, however many there may be, between them.
and lol @ "end of the day". There is no "end of the day" in pokemon. There is no point at which Scizor and Genesect "boil down" to being u-turners. In that case Mienshao probably beats them both because it also gets u-turn, and it has regenerator so it can abuse it for way longer. After all, at the end of the day it's just switching advantage! But any player would know that that's hardly true - even if they disagreed with my opinion of mienshao, we have objective evidence that mienshao is not superior to or comparable to Scizor, since it just dropped to UU.
Genesect and Scizor both do other jobs - plenty of them. We keep strategizing and experimenting with the roles a mon can play, the jobs it does, until it either finds that all its relevant roles are outclassed (tier drop, repeat until it finds a tier where it isn't outclassed anymore. cmon guys, PU for officially implemented tier gogo!) or it finds one that it can hold, and damn does it hold on. Genesect and Scizor both have their places, and damn do they hold on. There's more than enough room in this town for the two of them. We can compare Genesect and Scizor as u-turners, yes, because they both happen to learn u-turn. So do many other mons. But a straight comparison of Scizor to Genesect as pokemon involves a lot more than u-turn. It might just be semantics in how I'm reading your post, pillsbury, but I definitely don't agree. I think it's high time I dropped this argument though, because now I think I'm arguing more about the meaning of words than the meanings of pokemon.
basically, what ultimario said. I've made my feelings on this matter clear already - other than u-turn and typing, I don't see much overlap between scizor and genesect, if any at all. But regardless of my opinion of Scizor, that typing overlap kind of matters a lot if you're going to use them on the same team. using two mons on your team that are both 4x weak to a single type is generally a terrible idea, no matter what mons they are. Dragons can sometimes get away with it because very few mons are solid counters to dragons and you're unlikely to see multiple of those mons on the same team because that stacks up steel typings. This is a time-honored strategy. But even so, it must be recognized when running double dragons that you're making your team pretty ice-weak, and dragon-weak as well. It's the same for Scizor and Genesect. Running a double 4x fire weakness leaves a hole in your team's type synergy.
The fact that Genesect and Scizor have some role overlap as u-turners is not a problem for me - in fact, if they didn't have the same typing, I'd gladly run them both on the same team, assuming I had a team that called for two u-turners. That's what volt-turn is about, after all - it's about running multiple mons that learn volt switch and u-turn on the same team. However, volt-turn is also about countering one another's counters, and taking out each other's checks. Genesect and Scizor definitely do not counter one another's counters since they both have a huge weakness to fire, so that volt-turn synergy that's so famous between rotom-w and scizor is kind of missing here. it's suicidal to run u-turners/voltswitchers that share weaknesses. And on any team, stacking up weaknesses is kind of a terrible idea. I don't see it having much to do with the role similarities, however many there may be, between them.
and lol @ "end of the day". There is no "end of the day" in pokemon. There is no point at which Scizor and Genesect "boil down" to being u-turners. In that case Mienshao probably beats them both because it also gets u-turn, and it has regenerator so it can abuse it for way longer. After all, at the end of the day it's just switching advantage! But any player would know that that's hardly true - even if they disagreed with my opinion of mienshao, we have objective evidence that mienshao is not superior to or comparable to Scizor, since it just dropped to UU.
Genesect and Scizor both do other jobs - plenty of them. We keep strategizing and experimenting with the roles a mon can play, the jobs it does, until it either finds that all its relevant roles are outclassed (tier drop, repeat until it finds a tier where it isn't outclassed anymore. cmon guys, PU for officially implemented tier gogo!) or it finds one that it can hold, and damn does it hold on. Genesect and Scizor both have their places, and damn do they hold on. There's more than enough room in this town for the two of them. We can compare Genesect and Scizor as u-turners, yes, because they both happen to learn u-turn. So do many other mons. But a straight comparison of Scizor to Genesect as pokemon involves a lot more than u-turn. It might just be semantics in how I'm reading your post, pillsbury, but I definitely don't agree. I think it's high time I dropped this argument though, because now I think I'm arguing more about the meaning of words than the meanings of pokemon.
I had been thinking (it might be a crazy idea) about how a bulky Genesect would fare in the metagame. Timid 252 HP 4 SpAtk 252 Speed is still highly threatening because of Download, sporting 372 Attack on an Atk Boost and 415 SpAtk on a SpAtk boost. It'd be really bulky, but still have plenty of power to kill stuff with, and it's utility with U-Turn would be unaffected.
Do you realize that after a Download Boost, Timid uninvested Genesect has a respectable 372 attack? If my calculations are correct, Genesect's boosted Attack is just 37% lower than CB Scizor, and only 5% lower than +0 Scizor. According to the calculator I'm using, Scizor's CB U-Turn does 35.51% - 41.9% to standard Chansey. Timid no investment Download boosted Genesect's U-Turn does 22.3% - 26.42% to the same Chansey. Both do significant damage, though neither can reliably 2HKO (not that it even matters, since it's U-Turn). Clearly, Genesect's U-Turn will KO lot's of things that are KOed by Scizor's U-Turn. I see a loss in damage but not a loss in momentum.
Genesect hits with U-Turn for good damage and creates a good match up (e.g. Chansey vs Mienshao). Genesect does so with a much higher speed than Scizor while still doing significant damage, and packing it's elemental attacks. Lots of things that can switch in on Scizor can't switch in on Genesect. Skarmory can chip Scizor all day with a Rocky Helmet. It can't switch in on Genesect. Same goes for Gliscor and it's ilk. The only thing I can think of that can switch in on Genesect and not Scizor is Heatran, due to it's fear of Superpower.
There are several reasons to choose either for your team, but choosing Scizor for your U-Turner because of Chansey (or even worse, Blissey) is not a good reason.
Edit 2:
I just thought I'd add that I think this is a good point. Even Genesects that don't use U-Turn like Rock Polish sets will affect Scizor's usage, simply because of the typing. Teams that use Genesect will be unlikely to also use Scizor (and vice versa) for synergy reasons.
They don't really "hit from opposite sides". U-Turn is a physical move.
Do you realize that after a Download Boost, Timid uninvested Genesect has a respectable 372 attack? If my calculations are correct, Genesect's boosted Attack is just 37% lower than CB Scizor, and only 5% lower than +0 Scizor. According to the calculator I'm using, Scizor's CB U-Turn does 35.51% - 41.9% to standard Chansey. Timid no investment Download boosted Genesect's U-Turn does 22.3% - 26.42% to the same Chansey. Both do significant damage, though neither can reliably 2HKO (not that it even matters, since it's U-Turn). Clearly, Genesect's U-Turn will KO lot's of things that are KOed by Scizor's U-Turn. I see a loss in damage but not a loss in momentum.
Genesect hits with U-Turn for good damage and creates a good match up (e.g. Chansey vs Mienshao). Genesect does so with a much higher speed than Scizor while still doing significant damage, and packing it's elemental attacks. Lots of things that can switch in on Scizor can't switch in on Genesect. Skarmory can chip Scizor all day with a Rocky Helmet. It can't switch in on Genesect. Same goes for Gliscor and it's ilk. The only thing I can think of that can switch in on Genesect and not Scizor is Heatran, due to it's fear of Superpower.
There are several reasons to choose either for your team, but choosing Scizor for your U-Turner because of Chansey (or even worse, Blissey) is not a good reason.
Forretress doesn't learn U-Turn, so it can't perform the same role as Scizor. Edit: I just realized it gets Volt Switch, but meh.
Edit 2:
I just thought I'd add that I think this is a good point. Even Genesects that don't use U-Turn like Rock Polish sets will affect Scizor's usage, simply because of the typing. Teams that use Genesect will be unlikely to also use Scizor (and vice versa) for synergy reasons.
414, because Genesect in DW is used Naive or Hasty. Timid is used on Rock Polish sets with 3 special attacks.
I see using both Scizor and Genesect in the same team viable. Just cover it with 3 fire resistors, also, fire is pretty easy to cover or like a guy said
in this topic, in a rain team. Rotom-W would appreciate the rain too.
I thought it does, I didn't have time to check it, because 99% (if not 100%) of the things that learn Flamethrower learn Fire Blast xd
Since the gothic loli girl mon is released, I am thinking ways to use Double Trap offensively.
I am thinking something like this:
Gothitelle @ Leftovers
252 HP / 48 Spd ....
- HP Fighting/Grass Knot/Charm
- Psychic/Psyshock
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave/HP Fire
The set takes with Dugtrio all(or almost, if dropping HP Fire for Abomasnow) weather inducers. The gothic is somewhat bulky, because that it is "easier" to switch into weather inducers bar Specs Politoed and Ninetales, unlike Dugtrio(I have to do calcs about the hippo)
Slow U-turn is recomended.
Grass Knot has 120 base power against Tyranitar and Dugtrio.
The idea is to attack weather inducers, likely the gothic will die, but next, send Dugtrio and kill the weather inducer.
The idea is not that good against teams with Tyranitar+Hippowdon or if the weather inducer holds a Shed Shell.
Against weatherless teams, it provides paralysis support, and can trap few pokes, such as Conkeldurr or Magnezone/Ferrothorn[HP Fire in case of Ferrothorn]
48 Spd gives to the gothic the ability to outspeed Defensive Politoed with 4 Ev's in Spd. There is nothing more to outspeed since the gothic is pretty slow and there shouldn't give up Ev's from HP and defenses.
With 252 HP, 208 Sp Def +Sp Def Hydro Pump Scarf Modest Politoed does 60%. The gothic loli isn't a counter. With slow U-turn/Volt Switch or with Revenge kill, Thunder Waves it.
With the same evs, with slow U-turn/Volt Switch survives to Specs Modest Politoed, because Lefties recovers about the half of HP lost by SR.
Physically defensive Politoed is 2KO'ed by Thunderbolt.
This Politoed does 20% of damage with Scald to the Gothic.
30% to Ninetales with Psyshock to Sp Def Ninetales. Ninetales Sp Defensive does 46% maximum to the Gothic with Fire Blast.
32-38% to Sp Def Tyranitar with HP Fighting.
68-80% does this Tyranitar against the gothic with Crunch. Not an issue, because Dug can finish the job.
AntiStall
Gothitelle @ Leftovers/No Item
252 HP /...
- Taunt/Torment/Protect
- Substitute/Torment/Protect
- Toxic
- Torment/Covet/Protect
Nothing more to say. The best at this job, almost like a Wobbuffet without relying in Tickle+Pursuiter and less harmed by Burn/Poison.
Traps a wall and kills it.
ResTalk could be useful too. Foul Play hurts strong physical attackers, but since the gothic shouldn't be used against them.
With Protect+Torment has a utility of ruining Choiced mons.
Heal Bell could be useful but has a 4MSS, like Snatch.
The gothic learns Trick, so can be used against things like Blissey and trap her in a move and use Torment, maybe the best Torment user after Heatran.
Magic Coat lets her to Toxic and Taunt fast Taunters, like Deoxys-D and Sableye/Whimsicott
Recycle with Sitrus Berry can be used too.
Im pretty sure most Scarf sets also run something like 74(76?) attack EV's so U-turn actually does alot of damage with a download boast.
This whole Genesect V. Scizor thing has me feeling a bit... eh. I mean, I see that they have the same type + U-turn, but other than that, they're actually surprisingly different pokemon. For example, think of the kinds of pokemon that Scizor can threaten: Terrakion with Bullet Punch, Heatran and Blissey with Superpower and Lati@s with Pursuit (Genesect cannot trap the Lati twins) - these are just a few. Now, contrast that with things that Genesect can threaten, and the list is pretty different - i.e., with Thunderbolt, Genesect makes Jellicent and Tentacruel a hell of a lot more scared than they are v. Scizor. Additionally, Ice beam + Scarf allows Genesect to be a reliable dragon-slayer (Salamence, Dragonite sans Fire Punch) while Scarf U-turn makes Genesect far more threatening against Celebi, who can otherwise annihilate both Scizor and Genesect with HP [Fire].
I guess my point is this: both Genesect and Scizor, while being very similar, actually have different uses, and check different things. Which one you have on your team will largely depend on what your team needs (i.e., you may lack priority/ have a Terrakion weakness or you may need the general utility of a strong Scarfer).
Brief last point. Somewhere in this thread I read some post (can't remember where) that said Genesect is 'bulkier than Scizor'. Not completely true:
Defensive stats (HP/Def/Sp.Def)
Scizor: 70/100/80
Genesect:71/95/95
As you can see, Scizor actually has *marginally* better Physical bulk, though Genesect does have a fair bit better Special bulk. I just thought this needed pointing out, because the difference isn't actually that great.
EDIT: Just remembered. Standard CB Scizor runs 248HP EVs, so actually, if you're running a 252 Sp.Atk/ 252 Spe Genesect (which you would) then Scizor actually has better bulk overall. That's important, because Genesect relies on it's Speed stat to outspeed things, but it'll get smacked that much harder if it has to switch in. Scizor, however, can fall back on Technician Bullet Punch. Just some food for thought.
I guess my point is this: both Genesect and Scizor, while being very similar, actually have different uses, and check different things. Which one you have on your team will largely depend on what your team needs (i.e., you may lack priority/ have a Terrakion weakness or you may need the general utility of a strong Scarfer).
Brief last point. Somewhere in this thread I read some post (can't remember where) that said Genesect is 'bulkier than Scizor'. Not completely true:
Defensive stats (HP/Def/Sp.Def)
Scizor: 70/100/80
Genesect:71/95/95
As you can see, Scizor actually has *marginally* better Physical bulk, though Genesect does have a fair bit better Special bulk. I just thought this needed pointing out, because the difference isn't actually that great.
EDIT: Just remembered. Standard CB Scizor runs 248HP EVs, so actually, if you're running a 252 Sp.Atk/ 252 Spe Genesect (which you would) then Scizor actually has better bulk overall. That's important, because Genesect relies on it's Speed stat to outspeed things, but it'll get smacked that much harder if it has to switch in. Scizor, however, can fall back on Technician Bullet Punch. Just some food for thought.
I actually said that, thinking about base stats and possibilities rather than the actual sets that are used. In terms of base stats, Genesects defenses are marginally better, though he rarely invests in them. Also, I said earlier, Genesect could conceivably run Max HP and Speed to serve as a bulky pivot (note that I've never actually seen anyone do so) and rely on Download for power.
I'm not sure if Genesect is better at handling Salamence just because of Ice Beam, as Scarf Genesect is outsped by Scarf Moxiemence. He can probably tank an Outrage, but I'd rather take Salamence down with a Bullet Punch than get outsped and lose a big chunk of HP. The list of things Scizor handles well that Genesect doesn't is enough to differentiate the two, but they're definitely comparable and in competition with one another.
SubRoost Kyurem is pretty anti-meta right now. Checks/counters most Politoed, Starmie, Thundurus-T, Tentacruel, Ferrothorn and Rotom-W. Which is a big fuck you to rain teams! Just run Rapid Spin and T-Spikes support (hint: Tentacruel) and you are set!
You can run either Offensive or Defensive SubRoost(LO or Lefties), and both have their merits. The best 2 attacks so far for me have been Ice Beam + Earth Power. Ground + Ice has perfect coverage in OU except from Rotom-W (which is set-up bait) and Bronzing (which is non-existent and can be stalled out of Gyro Balls). Also even the things that wall this combo, such as Chansey/Blissey and Tyranitar, can get pp stalled and/or Toxic stalled, so you have a very deadly mon in your hands.
Pursuit support wouldn't be bad either, as Starmie can spin against Kyurem if you don't run Dragon Pulse, and weakening/killing CM Reuniclus helps a lot, as it can beat Kyurem 1v1.
You can run either Offensive or Defensive SubRoost(LO or Lefties), and both have their merits. The best 2 attacks so far for me have been Ice Beam + Earth Power. Ground + Ice has perfect coverage in OU except from Rotom-W (which is set-up bait) and Bronzing (which is non-existent and can be stalled out of Gyro Balls). Also even the things that wall this combo, such as Chansey/Blissey and Tyranitar, can get pp stalled and/or Toxic stalled, so you have a very deadly mon in your hands.
Pursuit support wouldn't be bad either, as Starmie can spin against Kyurem if you don't run Dragon Pulse, and weakening/killing CM Reuniclus helps a lot, as it can beat Kyurem 1v1.
Those listed are so right. In fact, one of my more offensive rain teams run 4/5 (CB Azurmarill & CM Jirachi). Poli's an almost must for rain teams, Starmie's THE choice spinner for rain sides, then people generally look at the therian's as they can abuse rain without being water type well, and then Mamo goes hand in hand with protecting Tornadus killing other flying animals.
I usually run rocks, but whether I use it or not is another matter. I think this metagame is at such a faster yet different pace than 4th Gen, where leads where so important and almost defined your team, where as now, most of the time I need that turn to keep the pressure on/sway it in my advantage.
Personally i think they arn't as important as they use to be. I carry them on a poke, but unless they will really help my side (team preview) I won't bother. Dragonite scares me into action often. if they have a spinner I usually never bother, as I rarely carry a ghost type.
That's my point, but even if Forretress learned U-Turn, I am sure that nobody would use U-Turn this way on Forretress. You would use by the same reason that you use Volt Switch: To gain momentum, after you already did your work of setting hazards or spinning them. The only difference is that U-Turn would receive STAB and the fact that it is a physical move, thus making use of its stronger physical Attack.
Unless you want to abuse Swift Swim, using a rain team without Politoed is pointless.
Even in such fast metagame, entry hazards are still important, while they are seeing less usage. Most people are only using Stealth Rock; they don't bother with (Toxic) Spikes. This maybe because Stealth Rock is the only hazard that can affect all Pokémon with the exception of those that have Magic Guard (and they are rare). Not to mention that it is the easiest hazard to setup. The metagame is so fast that you don't have time to setup Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and even deal with the fact that they don't affect Flying-types and levitators that are so common (and the latter also don't affect the common Steel-types). And Starmie is so common that you want to eliminate him before setting up Spikes and Toxic Spikes, or see your hard work being spun away. But entry hazards are still important to break Multiscale, Focus Sash and to discourage Flying-type switch-ins. That's why Stealth Rock is most of time the only hazard that is worth using.
In my Ferrothorn, I am not even using Spikes; I am using Stealth Rock and Leech Seed. This may appear to be a waste, as Ferrothorn is one of the few good Pokémon that can use Spikes. But Ferrothorn does very well with only Stealth Rock and you are even free to use other options like Leech Seed and Thunder Wave. Even now that Ferrothorn can use Spikes, Stealth Rock and Leech Seed on the same set, I doubt that people could succeed using this combination.
On the subject of Genesect vs Scizor: yes they both will be used for different things, but having both on one team does not seem like a good idea due to having the same typing. Because of this, I think Scizor might hold onto his title, unless there happens to be no acceptable substitute for a special attack Genesect, at which point it gets interesting. Part of what makes Scizor so omnipresent is how effective he is at what he does. Techniloom may be close, and could dig into Scizor's usage, but it is still fire weak, and that would be a consideration when using Genesect.
Basically what I am saying is: comparing the two won't settle any debate on which is better, you need to look at the meta as a whole.
Basically what I am saying is: comparing the two won't settle any debate on which is better, you need to look at the meta as a whole.
I think the main impact of Genesect will be this: Scizor will no longer be #1 in OU, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Very few people will opt to run both, and both are pretty awesome, so both will see heavy use. Scizor and Gensect will both be high in usage (IMHO), but Genesect won't cause Scizor to plunge to low OU or anything like that. However, to say that Genesect won't hurt Scizor's usage at all is refusing to look at the truth: even though they fulfill different roles, you still won't use them both on the same team (unless you are very brave), and that will hurt Scizor's usage. It doesn't mean he will be replaced, drop out of OU, or become obsolete...he just won't be #1 anymore. I welcome that. The metagame becomes stale when one pokemon sits on top of the usage stats all the time.
I tested out Choice Band Skill Link Cinccino. It hits a lot harder and can OHKO a lot of things with STAB Tail Slap (especially after Stealth Rock). But it's not reliable due to shaky accuracy and poor coverage, and Cinccino still dies to almost any attack. Not to mention it gets locked into the attack with Choice Band, meaning it will need to switch out.
Yeah that was my point, I've seen some Swift swim sides, seems weird to use rain dance with the amount of instance starters around, even with the advent of prankster. Even though SS is amazing, it becomes predictable and easily countered by other weathers.
Toxic spikes seem pointless now. So many steels, levitate's & flying as you said, plus Amoongus is floating around the place, Tentacruel etc, they seem less effective. Like I said, one of the only occasions I almost have to set up rocks is against Dragonite. I did play someone with all 4 or 5 of his pokes with sashes, and I had no rocks, which did make me slap it on my Mamo. But compared to 4th Gen, they don't see half the usage they use to. 95% of matches you'd see Stealth rocks from an opponent, it's more like 50% now (from my experience).
Ferro's brilliant, a rain team's arch nemisis. I think he's one of the biggest impacts on OU from BW, mainly because he resists the Water & Electric used so commonly to hit steels, and which are the prominant types in rain. Also neutral to EQ, which is nuts. I've stopped using rain simply because this guy causes so many problems for me D:
Ferro is a pain for rain teams to face, but I find that it is actually hindered by opposing Ferrothorn (bear with me a minute) Let's think about Ferrothorn for a minute. It has a superb defensive typing, decent Attack, great defenses, and a terrible Speed stat that Gyro Ball takes advantage of.
So what's the main problem it has? Opposing Grass types. They cut off its main form of recovery (Leech Seed) and some don't even care about paralysis (think Celebi and Ferrothorn) I find that as long as you can keep hitting Ferrothorn hard on the switch and just quickly bringing in a Grass type to face it, then you can slowly defeat it without too many problems. Even if it's a resisted hit, it'll do damage coming from offensive Pokemon.
For rain teams, things like Thundurus-T, Politoed, Haxorus, and Keldeo come to mind as strong offensive forces that Ferrothorn might think about coming in on. Repeated hits from them without Leech Seed recovery will eventually wear down Ferrothorn and allow one of those offensive forces to get going without having to worry about predicting a Ferrothorn switch-in as it'll be too weak to endure their hits anymore.
So what's the main problem it has? Opposing Grass types. They cut off its main form of recovery (Leech Seed) and some don't even care about paralysis (think Celebi and Ferrothorn) I find that as long as you can keep hitting Ferrothorn hard on the switch and just quickly bringing in a Grass type to face it, then you can slowly defeat it without too many problems. Even if it's a resisted hit, it'll do damage coming from offensive Pokemon.
For rain teams, things like Thundurus-T, Politoed, Haxorus, and Keldeo come to mind as strong offensive forces that Ferrothorn might think about coming in on. Repeated hits from them without Leech Seed recovery will eventually wear down Ferrothorn and allow one of those offensive forces to get going without having to worry about predicting a Ferrothorn switch-in as it'll be too weak to endure their hits anymore.
Honestly, Ferrothorn has trouble with powerful fighting STAB too. Pretty much any fighting type in OU will outrun Ferro and threaten a OHKO or 2HKO. It's also worth mentioning that even in rain, Ferrothorn can barely survive Hydreigon's fire blast (and may even be OHKO'd), and certainly won't survive if there's any prior damage. Ferrothorn is very annoying to deal with if you're unprepared, but there are several good pokes in OU that absolutely destroy it no problem.
There's several fighting type Pokemon that benefit from rain, Keldeo being most note worthy in this current meta. There's plenty overall ways for rain teams to handle Ferro;although it is indeed a minor annoyance...
I'm glad your opponent isn't smart enough to set up Spikes on those free switchin's. All those hazards Ferrothorn sets up would limit that strategy signifigantly. The challenge for facing Ferrothorn is making repeated switchins. I have found those Pokemon who are rather resistant are the best Pokes to take Ferrothorn out like Gengar.
Gengar can't repeatedly switch into Ferrothorn either. He hates getting paralyzed and can't really take a Gyro Ball. I mean, I guess he can if your opponent is stupid and can't predict, but good battlers will pick up on your strategy quickly. The best switch-in to Ferrothorn is easily Skarmory. He resists both STABs, can force Ferrothorn out with Whirlwind, can Roost off Leech Seed Damage, and can set his own hazards if they're foolish enough to stay in. Some even carry Taunt, which completely shuts Ferro down.
Has anyone tried standard Rotom in OU? I haven't used it extensively (I've tried it out), but it's pretty anti-meta since it can shut down the Therian forms, Keldeo, and blocks Rapid Spin easily. Does anyone think he's viable?