Contrary Serperior is one of the best offensive SubSeeders, if not the very best, but it has a serious case of a 4MSS because it would really like to have a moveset of Substitute/Leech Seed/Leaf Storm/Hidden Power of choice/Dragon Pulse, and even then Heatran is not even scared of it, regardless of which coverage move it chooses
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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
Contrary Serperior is one of the best offensive SubSeeders, if not the very best, but it has a serious case of a 4MSS because it would really like to have a moveset of Substitute/Leech Seed/Leaf Storm/Hidden Power of choice/Dragon Pulse, and even then Heatran is not even scared of it, regardless of which coverage move it chooses
I guess Sub-Seed works.... but Leaf Storm/Dragon Pulse/HP Fire/Giga Drain is a pretty good offensive set... Dragon Pulse/HP Fire gives him perfect Neutral coverage sans Heatran (who admitably utterly walls him) and has reliable recovery because after a few Contrary Boosts Giga Drain is going to hit pretty hard... but yes if left unchecked he's a monster... spammable 140BP moves are scary...
but I do say an EV Spread of 0/0/252/4/252/0 is the best since it maximizes his solid bulk and he's crazy fast even without investment... any other idea's for EV spread?
but I do say an EV Spread of 0/0/252/4/252/0 is the best since it maximizes his solid bulk and he's crazy fast even without investment... any other idea's for EV spread?
252 Sp Attack is necessary to get as much damage per hit possible. Serperior needs as much power as possible before it gets any real boosts, or else its not really that threatening.
232 Speed and a Timid nature allows him to outspeed positive 110s, which is an incredibly important benchmark. There really isn't much worth EVing for after that, I think, seeing as the only somewhat viable things that are quicker are Tornadus-I and Scolipede at 111 and 112, respectively.
The remaining 24 can go to bulk, since Serperior isn't doing anything else with them. Feel free to take 4 out and put them in a defense stat to give Genesect a certain boost, but he hits you hard anyways, so it might not actually do much.
He can actually do a lot of damage even without much investment in SpA... besides maxing out bulk allows him to survive a CB boosted U-Turn from Scizor...
and as for Genesect he can't switch in at will... he has to watch out for HP Fire... which even unboosted can 2-KO him... Serperior has little trouble getting a boost and once he gets one good luck...
Honestly I wouldn't even consider using Serp outside of its dream world ability, and that isn't even released yet. Standard mons used against rain work fine, and outclass serp if you want a water sponge. And if one was to run a moveset on contrary serp, I would personally run HP ground/Dragon pulse/Leafstorm/ then either sub or giga drain. I would leave taking out steels to either magneton or magnezone. Or it can be supplemented with the gene+trio core to take out tran. But to bring this back on topic, how are people doing with TR teams?
Scizor's CB U-Turn is a non-issue, seeing as Serperior should (imo) be packing HP Fire. Bullet Punch is more of an issue.
Regarding Genesect, you're right. Leaf Storm + HP Fire 2HKOs regardless of Sp Attack. However, you do get OHKOed without some bulk with the correct attack, ie Ice Beam and U-Turn, depending on the kind of boost you give it.
First, I expect HP Fire will be the most common option for Serperior, but not necessarily the best one. Depending on the usage of Dragons vs. Genesect and Scizor, Serperior may very well be seen running Hidden Power Ice instead, or my favorite option, HP Rock, which gives Serp the best overall coverage to sweep with (lets it beat Dragonite, Salamence, Volcarona, . Also, let's not forget Serp can just lay down a Sub for Scizor's U-Turn, and then Leaf Storm something else that comes in off the U-Turn for more SAtk boosts.
Finally, if Genesect gets banned like it should then it shouldn't be an issue for Serperior. However, if by some act of a higher power, Genesect is not banned from OU, then bulky Serperior is definitely something that people ought to be running. In fact, I can't imagine why someone would want to run a full-on offensive Serperior with 252/252 EVs. It has such great defenses, they shouldn't be put to waste. Besides, with every Leaf Storm giving a +2 SAtk boost, it's not like it's difficult to get a ton of stat boosts under your belt very easily, and at that point, whether you're running 252 SAtk EVs or a lot less than that, Leaf Storm is still going to be ridiculously powerful.
Really? I was under the impression that Substitute/Leech Seed/Leaf Storm/[insert move of choice here] was the generally accepted set for Serperior. That's interesting to know.
I can definitely see Contrary Serperior succeeding in this metagame, it's two perfect partners, Genesect and Dugtrio, can easily take care of it's Number.1 counter Heatran, opening up the opposing team too your sweep. It has a great base speed, enabling it to out-speed key threats that would have annoyed it otherwise, and it's natural bulk will, most likely, allow it to live a few hits from choice scarfers and retaliate with a +2 Giga Drain too heal off the damage. I really hope they will release it soon, I really like Serperior as a pokemon (as well as Sheer force Feraligatr :3).
Edit: btw, how does HP fire fare in rain? Does it hinder it in ohkoing certain threats? If it does, it might be smart to run a weather of your own to keep rain of the field.
Edit: btw, how does HP fire fare in rain? Does it hinder it in ohkoing certain threats? If it does, it might be smart to run a weather of your own to keep rain of the field.
I don't have any experience playing Dream World OU, but from theorymoning in regards to the current meta I think Taunt is going to be a very underrated option. It would perform really well against Deoxys-D teams since you could outpace Deoxys-D and Taunt, passively increase your Spa to beat Deoxys-D or to damage whatever comes in next. It's nice that you can break Dragoite's Multiscale and proceed to OHKO with +2 Dragon Pulse. You will also be able to prevent the pink blobs (really any special wall) from healing and prevent hazard set up for a lot of leads (Mew as an example).
edit for below: You do not have to use the third Leaf Storm, leaving you with 4 PP. The second one kills it and if you are not using Life Orb you could finish off with Dragon Pulse. But what Deoxys-D user won't let their precious hazards get set up while getting boosted in their face?
edit for below: You do not have to use the third Leaf Storm, leaving you with 4 PP. The second one kills it and if you are not using Life Orb you could finish off with Dragon Pulse. But what Deoxys-D user won't let their precious hazards get set up while getting boosted in their face?
Only problem there is that it could take 3 Leaf Storms to kill Deoxys-D, and since it has Pressure you'll only have 2 PP left after all of that...Leaf Storm's PP is actually an issue, Stall teams with a lot of Protect users can stall it out and then finish Serp off. I hate it when PP becomes an issue, but that's how it's looking for Serp. I know that happened a lot in DW OU.
Does anybody else want to try Eelektross out in BW2 OU? It got a lot of hand tricks this generation. Thunder Punch, Fire Punch, Superpower, Giga Drain, Drain Punch, Knock-Off, Aqua Tail, Sleep Talk, and Super Fang? I personally can't decide whether to go special, physical, or mixed! It just has such a giant movepool. You'd think there'd be a use for it somewhere.
^ sadly while its movepool and mixed attacking stats are fabulous (it even gets freaking coil), it has slightly subpar bulk for an offensive mon (80/80/80 - imo the benchmark for "reasonable bulk on an attacker" is hydreigon's 92/90/90) and on top of that an absolutely horrific speed tier (50 base) that means it will be taking a lot of neutral hits on that subpar bulk if it tries to attack or set up. it's nice to have levitate and all, since that means you have no weaknesses, but with defenses like that, you won't exactly be shaking off neutral hits from OU powerhouses.
tough to be a bulky sweeper, even with a move as good as coil, when your defenses are so thoroughly unremarkable. with no moves that boost its speed, i'm feeling like the best way to use it is trick room, and using TR on a team (since tross doesn't learn its own TR) just for the sake of facilitating one slow attacker is questionable. you'd end up playing full TR - not that it's impossible, but at that point you really have to wonder why you're still using eelektross.
the most appealing thing seems to be something along the lines of the NU specially defensive bulky coil set - even with that broad satking movepool, you can't really capitalize on it in a tier as fast as OU, with something as slow as eelektross. coil is really the only distinguishing edge eelektross has in OU, if any at all
tough to be a bulky sweeper, even with a move as good as coil, when your defenses are so thoroughly unremarkable. with no moves that boost its speed, i'm feeling like the best way to use it is trick room, and using TR on a team (since tross doesn't learn its own TR) just for the sake of facilitating one slow attacker is questionable. you'd end up playing full TR - not that it's impossible, but at that point you really have to wonder why you're still using eelektross.
the most appealing thing seems to be something along the lines of the NU specially defensive bulky coil set - even with that broad satking movepool, you can't really capitalize on it in a tier as fast as OU, with something as slow as eelektross. coil is really the only distinguishing edge eelektross has in OU, if any at all
@ Cipher
Outside (and inside really) elektross has no use in OU. Its too frail! I agree it has good typing but its bulk doesnt live up to that. As it cant just tank hits, and i dont think it gets any reliable form of recovery. I personally feel its a waste of a team slot and is competing aginst Jolteon (who struggles now as it is) and Rotom W for a team slot. (And Rotom is thriving in talent in this meta)
Outside (and inside really) elektross has no use in OU. Its too frail! I agree it has good typing but its bulk doesnt live up to that. As it cant just tank hits, and i dont think it gets any reliable form of recovery. I personally feel its a waste of a team slot and is competing aginst Jolteon (who struggles now as it is) and Rotom W for a team slot. (And Rotom is thriving in talent in this meta)
When his dream world ability is released after a stab leaf storm he can become a potent sweeper so that's why I said that. As of now Im sure you were right for him to be a subseeder but he will be a decent sweeper in his tier if revenge killers are gone
Sereprior @ Expert Belt
Trait: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid nature
- Leaf Storm
- HP Fire
- Dragon Pulse
- Giga Drain
I believe that this will be by far Serperior's most common set. Scarf Genesect is OHKOed on the switch with HP Fire after SR, and same for Scizor, which may want to come in to Bullet Punch you. Also Dragon Pulse does 65% min to Scarf Salamence, meaning it can't switch in at all. Expert Belt is chosen because you don't really need the extra power, and the LO recoil puts you easier into RK range from faster Pokemon or priority users. At +2 the only Pokemon that can wall you are: Chansey, Blissey, Amoonguss, SpD Celebi with T-Wave, Heatran, Tornadus-T, and Jirachi IF Body Slam paralyzes you. All of them can be revenge killed or at least crippled badly by Specs Gothitelle with Psychic, HP Ground, Signal Beam, and Trick. Serperior seems really awesome now that it has access to Dragon Pulse! I can't see the time he will be released. Scarf Serperior might be a terror too for offensive teams, after their Steel types are weakened/eliminated, and their Dragon types weakened.
Trait: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid nature
- Leaf Storm
- HP Fire
- Dragon Pulse
- Giga Drain
I believe that this will be by far Serperior's most common set. Scarf Genesect is OHKOed on the switch with HP Fire after SR, and same for Scizor, which may want to come in to Bullet Punch you. Also Dragon Pulse does 65% min to Scarf Salamence, meaning it can't switch in at all. Expert Belt is chosen because you don't really need the extra power, and the LO recoil puts you easier into RK range from faster Pokemon or priority users. At +2 the only Pokemon that can wall you are: Chansey, Blissey, Amoonguss, SpD Celebi with T-Wave, Heatran, Tornadus-T, and Jirachi IF Body Slam paralyzes you. All of them can be revenge killed or at least crippled badly by Specs Gothitelle with Psychic, HP Ground, Signal Beam, and Trick. Serperior seems really awesome now that it has access to Dragon Pulse! I can't see the time he will be released. Scarf Serperior might be a terror too for offensive teams, after their Steel types are weakened/eliminated, and their Dragon types weakened.
I asked about how good Heatran is at setting up rocks, and nobody spoke anything :(
Again, Heatran to me has been an unreliable SRer, because of the number of Water-types that force him out and Rain. I have to predict a switch or waste time using SR when I could defeat that threat easily. Also, a common spinner, Starmie, can put Heatran on a hard position, because it can both spin away the hazard that Heatran just setup-ed, or it can OHKO Heatran with Hydro Pump. That's why I've paired my Heatran with a Jellicent that has a specially defensive EV spread that let him survive Starmie's Thunderbolt and stall it out with a combination of Will-O-Wisp and Recover.
The fact that Dugtrio exists also doesn't help. Unless Heatran has a Shed Shell or an intact Air Balloon, the opponent can just trap my Heatran and then spin the hazards away later on battle. Or if it has a Magic Bouncer, it can predict me using hazards, and then U-Turn to Dugtrio, although most of time my opponent's don't know that I am using Stealth Rock, this lets me setup Stealth Rock with at least some insurance.
Again, Heatran to me has been an unreliable SRer, because of the number of Water-types that force him out and Rain. I have to predict a switch or waste time using SR when I could defeat that threat easily. Also, a common spinner, Starmie, can put Heatran on a hard position, because it can both spin away the hazard that Heatran just setup-ed, or it can OHKO Heatran with Hydro Pump. That's why I've paired my Heatran with a Jellicent that has a specially defensive EV spread that let him survive Starmie's Thunderbolt and stall it out with a combination of Will-O-Wisp and Recover.
The fact that Dugtrio exists also doesn't help. Unless Heatran has a Shed Shell or an intact Air Balloon, the opponent can just trap my Heatran and then spin the hazards away later on battle. Or if it has a Magic Bouncer, it can predict me using hazards, and then U-Turn to Dugtrio, although most of time my opponent's don't know that I am using Stealth Rock, this lets me setup Stealth Rock with at least some insurance.
Oh must remember that Politoed's and other bulky water's scalds are pathetically weak, even under the rain, so while Heatran doesn't enjoy taking them, he can certainly take a few in order to get rocks up if need be. For example, Politoed's scald does a max of 51% in the rain to spD Heatran. So if you keep Heatran around long enough to outlast their spinners, it has a good chance of stacking up, and if it lacks a spinner, then you can set them up right in front of Politoed's face.
If you want something that can set up in front of politoed, starmie, and tentacruel as long as it wants, use Blissey or Chansey with stealth rocks, Celebi also works.
If you want something that can set up in front of politoed, starmie, and tentacruel as long as it wants, use Blissey or Chansey with stealth rocks, Celebi also works.
Heatran has actually gotten better for me, in terms of a hazard setter. All it really needs is one turn of an easy resist, since there are so many for it to abuse. Dugtrio is indeed a problem but its usage has declined. Perhaps people came to there senses and realized that it is a skill-less strategy to use it with genesect. It doesn't have anything to check spinners, but it does have a scald of its own in lava plume. If you can keep heatran in, instead of bringing heatran in, I think it works a little more effectively.
Heatran was pretty bad at the start of BW2 with all the Rain and GeneSun running around, but now that all the madness has died down a bit I've found it to be worth using again. Rain is still a problem, but Sand does a decent job of checking it nowadays, and Dugtrio isn't nearly as common as it was back in August and September. Heatran is still the best check to Genesect, so it's worth using for that reason alone, but it's also still a premier special wall of the generation and a great Stealth Rock user. The SDef set is the only one worth bothering with in my opinion, as offensive Balloon just doesn't work anymore due to Heatran's disappointingly low Speed compared to the rest of the metagame. Protect is nice, since half of everything is Choiced these days, and Roar for phazing is an excellent move to partner with Stealth Rock, as most teams really hate hazards in BW2, and spreading the damage around is never a bad idea. Lava Plume is just as good as it's always been, and by good I mean annoying; people seem to forget it's the Fire-type equivalent of Scald, and that it burns just as often. Very useful in a pinch.
Overall, I don't think Heatran is nearly as good as it was in late BW1, but it certainly still has its niche in BW2. There's no compelling reason to stop using it yet.
I think that the offensive variants of Heatran with Air Balloon still are good, the low speed is not a problem, as Heatran has other advantages. It can check Dragons that lack a Fighting- or Water-type move and can defeat all them, except Kyurem(-B), with Hidden Power Ice. It has a Fire Blast powerful enough to 2HKO anything that doesn't resist it and has low Special Defense. With Air Balloon it also laughs at defensive Gliscor and can defeat him with HP Ice, and even if it pops Air Balloon, Heatran outspeeds and OHKOes. Despite what is said on the Smogon in-site analysis, a Timid nature is extremely helpful to outspeed defensive Gliscor and Adamant +0 Dragonite, and speed tie with other Heatran that pack HP Ice (it may not outspeed those that don't, but as long as it mantains its Air Balloon intact, Heatran shouldn't have a problem defeating them with Earth Power if they lack Air Balloon).
It is a bit harder to use, however, when you consider that is risky to switch-in on any non-Fire-, non-Poison-, and non-Ground-type attack and status moves since its Air Ballon will pop instantly. And if you want to escape from Dugtrio, it's much better to use Shed Shell. But on my opinion Air Balloon Heatran still has its merits, and I've used him properly and it is good.
It is a bit harder to use, however, when you consider that is risky to switch-in on any non-Fire-, non-Poison-, and non-Ground-type attack and status moves since its Air Ballon will pop instantly. And if you want to escape from Dugtrio, it's much better to use Shed Shell. But on my opinion Air Balloon Heatran still has its merits, and I've used him properly and it is good.
The only Dragons left that don't have Fighting on Water type moves are Dragonite and Salamence, neither of which are very common anymore. Salamence beats Heatran if its Balloon is broken, and that is very easy to do, considering all the Genesects running around. With Air Balloon it doesn't beat Gliscor, because most Gliscor run 281 Speed now to outspeed Heatran and Adamant Lucario, so you switch in and if they predict and Ice Fang then next turn you lose. The problem with Air Balloon Heatran is that it relies so much on its Balloon; once it is popped, Heatran comes crashing down to earth and is suddenly vulnerable to half the metagame. And let's not forget the overwhelming prevalence of Rain, Garchomp, Terrakion, Keldeo...all things that beat Heatran without even blinking an eye. No, offensive Heatran is far past its prime.
Heatran is one cool Pokemon, and I like it a lot. Even with the prevalence of Dugtrio and Rain it still works great! However as of recent I found something that plays similar to the Specially Defensive Heatran set, but is a different Pokemon altogether. I have been trying out the almighty SubToxic Jirachi who is really good in this metagame. The main switch ins to Jirachi are bulky waters and Heatran, and with Heatran taking a bit of a dive in popularity this set has the perfect openings to succeed. I use the set of Iron Head / Substitute / Toxic / Fire Punch to wreck havoc on many teams. When you see Jirachi you typically expect Flinching and Paralysis, but Toxic is a nasty surprise to Rotom-W / Politoed that switch in. The real success this set brings is the ability to basically Flinch anything to death + residual damage from poison to wear down opponents fast. I have literally destroyed Rotom-W and Politoed with ease. Plus, even if you don't go for the Iron Flinching Tactic, then a free Toxic on one of these guys is very valuable and appreciated in winning the weather war.
Onto the metagame itself, the whole game is starting to gear less towards Rain IMO, I actually have been seeing it less on the ladder, but it still is the most common weather.
Onto the metagame itself, the whole game is starting to gear less towards Rain IMO, I actually have been seeing it less on the ladder, but it still is the most common weather.