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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
Sand is about as easy as rain considering how easy it is to slap CBtar / Keld / RP lando onto a team and then just build around it. Sand and rain are usually about even in usage from my experience on the ladder, with sun being a little bit behind ( a lot of sun users on the ladder have no clue how to play it). I'm surprised if anything DragMag isn't used more on the ladder. It performs pretty well against most team style and is a nice and easy way to quickly climb the ladder. Its pretty consistent and doesn't generally have bad match ups to certain team types like the weathers tend to do (rain generally being weak to hail etc)
I've been seeing Analytic LO Starmie on the ladder lately. Murders Jellicent attempting to spinblock it. Nice to see people having to resort to actual anti-stall tactics lately instead of just naturally having enough power to plow through any defensive core they want.
Honestly I don't see why Haxorus and Reuniclus are so low. TR: Focus Miss beats Ttar. Psyshock beats Toed + Tales. Hippowdown can be dealt with otherwise, plus if either TR or CM setup, then Recover, kinda GG.
Haxorus, Lum DD, again why not used as much, Outrage + Low Kick + EQ is great even though it would like Fire Punch > EQ. Try some calcs at +1 with Both of them (except TR reuniclus)
Also to those saying things will drop, not everything under 7% will drop (this goes for all tiers)
Haxorus, Lum DD, again why not used as much, Outrage + Low Kick + EQ is great even though it would like Fire Punch > EQ. Try some calcs at +1 with Both of them (except TR reuniclus)
Also to those saying things will drop, not everything under 7% will drop (this goes for all tiers)
No doubt Haxorus is an offensive monster, but then you have Dragonite who has the exact role and has a much consistent set-up+sweep rate with better bulk and not to mention multiscale which just makes it so much better to use than hax. Plus it has a super-asset in Extremespeed. a +2 priority which haxorus doesn't have which makes it super easy to revenge kill.
put 2+2 together and you can easily see why Haxorus is overshadowed.
One of the main reasons you don't see Haxorus used at all because it's not appealing to many of the top players. It has many great offensive options (Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Earthquake, Superpower / Low Kick) an overkill attack stat, and it's brain dead easy to use, but a subpar speed and shockingly bad defensive stats makes it a worse choice than practically every offensive Dragon in the tier. That last point is actually pretty important. What's the point of having an awesome mono Dragon-typing when threats like Specs Hydro Pump are always OHKOing you in the rain. Haxorus can't survive a from +2 Jolly Mach Punch Breloom, +2 ExtremeSpeed from Lucario, and +2 Bullet Bunch from Scizor. (while Garchomp can) It can't switch into anything in BW OU, and it has to rely on double switches or revenge KOs which are pretty risky.
Dragonite has Multiscale, Garchomp's got hilarious durability and not too shabby offensive, Kyurem-B can actually switch into several Pokemon, and is mad powerful once it gets going. This doesn't mean that Haxorus is a bad Pokemon, but it finds itself in a position where it has no real reason to be used outside of "I kind of like this Pokemon." (that and DragSpam team, but fuck those teams).
I think it's pretty telling when top players AND regular players aren't experimenting with Haxorus at all.
I think of a couple reason why people don't use Reuniclus;
It's hard to do anything in a tier where you have to deal with Pokemon who do 300% with rain boosted Hydro Pumps or stupidly powerful Earth Powers. Jirachi & CB Tyranitar being everywhere doesn't help either.
Haxorus has an outdated role.. thats why it is not used. Its double dance role is outclassed by none but... there are very few if any stall/bulky teams that Haxorus would want to plough through that other powerful threats can't plough through anyway...
It's not as easy as you say it is to revenge it with scarfers because there are only so many that carry SE moves, even scarf Keldeo and scarf Terrakion (currently common scarfers) can't ohko haxorus after SR damage.
As for scarfed dragon/ice attacks, just pack a resist to set up on it (i.e. Lucario).
Whats left is an underwhelming dragon, despite having a clear cut role it isn't outclassed in, the other dragons are all most useful in other actually relevant roles!
It's not as easy as you say it is to revenge it with scarfers because there are only so many that carry SE moves, even scarf Keldeo and scarf Terrakion (currently common scarfers) can't ohko haxorus after SR damage.
As for scarfed dragon/ice attacks, just pack a resist to set up on it (i.e. Lucario).
Whats left is an underwhelming dragon, despite having a clear cut role it isn't outclassed in, the other dragons are all most useful in other actually relevant roles!
Guys, what are your opinions on Alakazam?
Over the past few months I have seen Zam climb steadily and surely up the usage stats. Starting in the beginning of this year, Alakazam started out at 8.8% at spot #23 in usage and now it has risen to #17 to 10.1% on the stats last month.
Alakazam has some cool traits that come together about it that few other Pokemon (if there are any) can really offer. First, Alakazam can really be custom tailored to a team needs and acts as a wildcard to the opponent. With Focus Sash + Magic Guard, you can assure yourself that a sweeper of your choice can never sweep your team and just be a huge block to opposing offensive teams. HP Ice? Say goodbye +6 DD Dragonites and Landorus-I's. You can do likewise for SD Scizor with HP Fire. HP Rock can sort of get the job done on Volcarona if you have a strong priority user to follow up on the attack. This is also not considering what just your normal moves net you such as a safety net against Double Dancing Terrakions and Calm Mind Keldeos with Psyshock. There is other annoying crap you can put on Sash Zam like Encore and Thunder Wave.
Life Orb offers the same wild-card nature as the Focus Sash set, but not as to great of a degree. Taunt can be devastating towards more defensive teams, Charge Beam can make a deadly powerful and fast threat, and it can run coverage moves like the HP's, Signal Beam, and Grass Knot (personal favorite to hit Tyranitar, Sp. Def Hippowdon, and Jellicent HARD without missing). The standard Substitute is also very deadly. Alakazam is one of the few very fast Pokemon with great power, so it can be a great asset against offense (especially against Starmie's trying to spin hazards). Lastly, Zam is pretty self-sufficient and requires very minimal support because of Magic Guard. All it really needs is some U-turn/Volt Switch support and you will be surprised on how much you get your frail little Zam in the game (Scizor is great). Hazards help a ton too especially with the aforementioned U-turn support.
Over the past few months I have seen Zam climb steadily and surely up the usage stats. Starting in the beginning of this year, Alakazam started out at 8.8% at spot #23 in usage and now it has risen to #17 to 10.1% on the stats last month.
Alakazam has some cool traits that come together about it that few other Pokemon (if there are any) can really offer. First, Alakazam can really be custom tailored to a team needs and acts as a wildcard to the opponent. With Focus Sash + Magic Guard, you can assure yourself that a sweeper of your choice can never sweep your team and just be a huge block to opposing offensive teams. HP Ice? Say goodbye +6 DD Dragonites and Landorus-I's. You can do likewise for SD Scizor with HP Fire. HP Rock can sort of get the job done on Volcarona if you have a strong priority user to follow up on the attack. This is also not considering what just your normal moves net you such as a safety net against Double Dancing Terrakions and Calm Mind Keldeos with Psyshock. There is other annoying crap you can put on Sash Zam like Encore and Thunder Wave.
Life Orb offers the same wild-card nature as the Focus Sash set, but not as to great of a degree. Taunt can be devastating towards more defensive teams, Charge Beam can make a deadly powerful and fast threat, and it can run coverage moves like the HP's, Signal Beam, and Grass Knot (personal favorite to hit Tyranitar, Sp. Def Hippowdon, and Jellicent HARD without missing). The standard Substitute is also very deadly. Alakazam is one of the few very fast Pokemon with great power, so it can be a great asset against offense (especially against Starmie's trying to spin hazards). Lastly, Zam is pretty self-sufficient and requires very minimal support because of Magic Guard. All it really needs is some U-turn/Volt Switch support and you will be surprised on how much you get your frail little Zam in the game (Scizor is great). Hazards help a ton too especially with the aforementioned U-turn support.
the only alakazam worth using right now is the focus sash 4 attacks set. it's an excellent catch-all for boosting sweepers, and has some nice coverage that lends it a very unique niche in the ou metagame. psychic hits really hard, focus blast can take out normally solid psychic-type checks like tyranitar and heatran, and access to signal beam makes it one of the few common special attackers that can bypass celebi. don't use shadow ball, it sucks. magic guard and focus sash together guarantee that it will tank at least one attack, unless the move in question is a multi-hit attack like icicle spear or bullet seed. i guess the problem with zam lies in the choice between hp ice and hp fire; whereas hp ice can ohko dnite after rocks, lando, gliscor, etc., hp fire is also really important for taking out one of hp ice zam's best checks, scizor. the choice between the two is pretty difficult, since whatever you choose leaves you open to something else. i usually go with hp ice since stopping sweepers like dragonite and landorus is what zam is all about, but anything works. the prevalence of both sdef and scarf jirachi also really hurts zam's viability, since it can't do anything to the former and gets brought down to its sash by the latter's faster u-turn. kinda disappointing that such a good pokemon is countered by one of the other best pokemon. overall i'd say alakazam is medium-level ou, i think it's pretty great for enabling more bulky hyper-offensive teams but some people just hate it and i think i understand why.
I think psyshock holds more value than psychic to get past CM Keldeo, the blobs, jelly to an extent, and tentacruel (I think terrakion can take one psychic in sand from zam). HP ice is probably more useful as the prevalance in rain makes HP fire somewhat a bad choice (Spdef ferro lives 1 hit from zam anyways), also the only thing scizor is gonna do is BP, so you dedicate zam to scizor only (they will often switch out till your sash is broken anyways). I think with zam you need to be going after things that are in reach if near OHKOing, or at least being very revengable.
Yea, with Keldeo, Sheer Force Landorus, and even Thundurus-T and Kyurem-Black, the power level just skyrocketed in OU. What used to be decent in OU have been bumped down a notch because of that. Kyurem-Black especially gives Haxorus competition, but I still believe Haxorus has things going for it, such as being one of the go-to DD Sweepers in a Dual Screen team (watch out for Scarf Latios, though), which are not as crazy popular as back in BW1 (which may explain the decline of Haxorus). There's always CB Haxorus, too, because Kyurem-Black is usually better off using a Substitute set, and Haxorus can take physical hits better than KyuB by virtue of its better typing. It does lose the title of having the strongest Outrage, though (even Jolly Kyurem-B has more Attack than Adamant Haxorus).
OTR Reuniclus is probably more effective now since people are starting to run less specially defensive Jirachi and this metagame focuses on Speed more than ever. However, it is definitely not meta anymore, being overshadowed by Keldeo, Landorus, and Thundurus.
OTR Reuniclus is probably more effective now since people are starting to run less specially defensive Jirachi and this metagame focuses on Speed more than ever. However, it is definitely not meta anymore, being overshadowed by Keldeo, Landorus, and Thundurus.
The issue with Psyshock is that Focus Sash Alakazam is already kind of weak, and Psyshock makes it harder for you to hurt physically orientated Pokemon. It doesn't have much utility worth noting against Chansey and Blissey (The former is 4HKOed, while the latter needs Stealth Rock, and 1 layer of Spikes to be 2HKOed)and Keldeo gets smashed by Psychic at +1 anyway. I think it's worth noting that Sash Alakazam is actually kind of weak offensively, it's true strength lies in its coverage, which lets it get the drop down on a ton of Pokemon. It's pretty much why I love HP Ice on zam. Sure beating down Scizor is nice, but OHKOing all of the 4X Ice-weaks is too good to pass up.
Well, when you try to think of something that psychic stab actually hits... you draw many blanks. So while psychic may hit harder than psyshock, what does it even hit, if not something that is for SE damage?. Forgot to mention Volc, but meh.
Like you said, its pretty much only there because of coverage moves.
Edit: List of things that matter for psychic over psyshock not covered by other moves:
Conkeldurr
Mamoswine (if you don't want to risk focus miss)
Cloyster (again, focus miss)
Politoed (if defensive)
most important on the list probably
Keldeo/Terrakion (assuming not in sand), 100% chance KO vs 50% chance KO.
Pretty much end list right there, everything else FB/Sigbeam/HP ice covers. And stealth rock/spikes/sand makes that bit irrelevant.
OK, so I'd like to start a discussion based on, save Smeargle, the most versatile Pokemon EVER: Mew
So guys, do you have any creative Mew sets you like to use?
This is my favorite on a Rain team:
Mew@Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Spe/4 HP
- Nasty Plot/Charge Beam
- Surf
- Aura Sphere
- Psychic
This set can actually sweep with the right assistance. After a Nasty Plot, anything not called Kingdra is taking BIG damage from Nasty Plot Life Orb Rain boosted Surf.
You don't believe this set can sweep?
Blissey (OU Support)Aura Sphere 41.87 - 49.38%
That means that after SR, 2HKO.
Alternatively, you can run HP Bug to beat Celebi or HP Ice to beat Celebi AS well as Dragonite.
Save Blissey, Chansey and the odd Pokemon that can wall your set(depends on coverage), almost every pokemon is beat after a Plot by Mew in the rain.
So guys, do you have any creative Mew sets you like to use?
This is my favorite on a Rain team:
Mew@Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Spe/4 HP
- Nasty Plot/Charge Beam
- Surf
- Aura Sphere
- Psychic
This set can actually sweep with the right assistance. After a Nasty Plot, anything not called Kingdra is taking BIG damage from Nasty Plot Life Orb Rain boosted Surf.
You don't believe this set can sweep?
Blissey (OU Support)Aura Sphere 41.87 - 49.38%
That means that after SR, 2HKO.
Alternatively, you can run HP Bug to beat Celebi or HP Ice to beat Celebi AS well as Dragonite.
Save Blissey, Chansey and the odd Pokemon that can wall your set(depends on coverage), almost every pokemon is beat after a Plot by Mew in the rain.
OK, so I'd like to start a discussion based on, save Smeargle, the most versatile Pokemon EVER: Mew
So guys, do you have any creative Mew sets you like to use?
This is my favorite on a Rain team:
Mew@Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Spe/4 HP
- Nasty Plot/Charge Beam
- Surf
- Aura Sphere
- Psychic
This set can actually sweep with the right assistance. After a Nasty Plot, anything not called Kingdra is taking BIG damage from Nasty Plot Life Orb Rain boosted Surf.
You don't believe this set can sweep?
Blissey (OU Support)Aura Sphere 41.87 - 49.38%
That means that after SR, 2HKO.
Alternatively, you can run HP Bug to beat Celebi or HP Ice to beat Celebi AS well as Dragonite.
Save Blissey, Chansey and the odd Pokemon that can wall your set(depends on coverage), almost every pokemon is beat after a Plot by Mew in the rain.
Scarf Keldeo used Hydro Pump!!!
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mew in rain: 294-346 (85.96 - 101.16%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
With SR, thats an 87.5% to be OHKOed. Sorry, this doesn't work as well in practice as it does on paper. Mew is a great pokemon, but for a sweeper, its slow and walled fairly easily depending on coverage moves.
SR Lead Mew aint so shabby, either. Granted it's not as fast as Terrakion, but it's probably better than Terrakion when facing against Spinners. It provides some nice momentum with Normal Gem Explosion + Tailwind support, too, a combination that Jimbonhttp://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3473211 introduced awhile back.
Cool Thundurus-T set, BKC ;d Seems like a perfect set for Volt-Turn teams. I am sure that you pair it with a Taunt SR lead or a Rapid Spinner, cuz otherwise SR would cause the strategy to backfire.
Cool Thundurus-T set, BKC ;d Seems like a perfect set for Volt-Turn teams. I am sure that you pair it with a Taunt SR lead or a Rapid Spinner, cuz otherwise SR would cause the strategy to backfire.
thund-t is good against stall, especially if youre a douchebag that pairs it with gothitelle so you can uturn out of hippo/gastro and grass knot their faces off, but against offense its not that great since it cant switch into shit and even when you do manage to come in everythings faster than it. the most you might do is catch latias with uturn.
^ I'm quite fond of partnering up that Thundurus-T with Breloom too. You lure in the aforementioned Hippowdon and Gastrodon (as well as Ferrothorn) for the easy Spore, as well as weaken Lati@s and Celebi with U-turn to the point where they can no longer check a +2 Breloom. I'm happy others are seeing the merits of U-turn over Volt Switch on Thundy!
I agree with using U-Turn on Thundurus-T, as it already has Thunderbolt/Thunder as a STAB move. However keep in mind that as long as Celebi can survive Mach Punch, it can destroy Breloom with Psychic. Overall, however, Thundurus-T + Breloom makes for a sound anti-Rain core, and it pairs very nicely with Tyranitar, who also provides Stealth Rocks for entry hazard damage, which will be plentiful with all the switching that the core causes. Here are the sets to be used together:
Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP/252 SpD/4 Spe
Nature: Careful/Sassy
-Stealth Rock
-Stone Edge
-Pursuit
-Superpower/Thunderpunch/Fire Blast/Ice Beam/Dragon Tail/Toxic (it really depends on the rest of the team; Tyranitar has tons of options)
Breloom (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Technician
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
-Spore
-Swords Dance
-Mach Punch
-Bullet Seed
Thundurus @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Atk/252 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Naive
-Thunderbolt
-U-turn
-Focus Blast
-HP Ice/Grass Knot (really Grass Knot is only for Gastrodon, but running it emphasizes this being an anti-rain core; still HP Ice is preferable in most cases for hitting Scarf Salamence, +1 Dragonite, Garchomp, Gliscor, and (Scarf) Landorus)
Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP/252 SpD/4 Spe
Nature: Careful/Sassy
-Stealth Rock
-Stone Edge
-Pursuit
-Superpower/Thunderpunch/Fire Blast/Ice Beam/Dragon Tail/Toxic (it really depends on the rest of the team; Tyranitar has tons of options)
Breloom (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Technician
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
-Spore
-Swords Dance
-Mach Punch
-Bullet Seed
Thundurus @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Atk/252 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Naive
-Thunderbolt
-U-turn
-Focus Blast
-HP Ice/Grass Knot (really Grass Knot is only for Gastrodon, but running it emphasizes this being an anti-rain core; still HP Ice is preferable in most cases for hitting Scarf Salamence, +1 Dragonite, Garchomp, Gliscor, and (Scarf) Landorus)
that thundurus set absolutely wrecks and i urge people to try it (just not on me cos i think my sand teams are weak vs it). u-turn owns celebi and superpower owns ttar and sort of heatran...not much else to say, with the huge spatk thun-t sports it can be really hard to wall this guy, the only way to really play vs it is to check it with faster offense, of which there is sadly quite a bit more than thundy enjoys. nonetheless it wrecks all the lame teams that bkc makes which is pretty ironic!
I've been using Lead Mew a lot lately, and although Tailwind is cool, I think that Magic Coat is more practical. It lets you beat all of the other common leads 1v1 without having to resort to Mental Herb. Since fast Taunt leads such as Terrakion/Azelf/Aerodactyl seem to be hot right now (possibly in response to the rise of Custap Skarmory), it can really give you an edge over other HO teams.
For reference, here's the set I use:
Mew @ Normal Gem
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Magic Coat
- Explosion
^ That is probably one of the best sets for HO teams nowadays. It's rather bulky and Magic Coat turns you to a solid anti-lead. I never really used it in a serious team (I use it as a dedicated lead against Taunt/hazard users for a SmashPass team xD) but the set does really well stopping a majority of other leads and tends to make a mark on the battlefield. I personally think a good idea to use this is to replace Normal Gem boom with something like Aura Sphere / Flamethrower in order to kill of Scizor/Tyranitar depending on what Pokemon your team would love to get rid of. Overall great set to use and is probably better than the TauntWisp BKC mentioned (That thing is baller tho)
I can see the logic in using an offensive move, though personally I'd still stick by Explosion as A) it gives you instant momentum and B) it stops your opponent from using Rapid Spin. Admittedly not outspeeding Starmie sucks, which Azelf has a chance to do (especially considering that most Starmie don't run max Speed these days). However, I guess I like the unpredictability and surprise value behind lead Mew, which is it why it works so well.
Also, on an unrelated note, QD Roost Volcarona is awesome right now. It provides so much utility with its unique typing that helps it check a large number of dangerous threats, and can clean up without breaking a sweat in the late-game once certain threats have been removed. What's really cool is how versatile it is; it can be fit onto pretty much any kind of team with a spinner, under any weather condition. I personally like it in the rain atm with Bug Buzz/Hurricane, but I've also used it to some success on sand teams as part of a FWG core.
Also, on an unrelated note, QD Roost Volcarona is awesome right now. It provides so much utility with its unique typing that helps it check a large number of dangerous threats, and can clean up without breaking a sweat in the late-game once certain threats have been removed. What's really cool is how versatile it is; it can be fit onto pretty much any kind of team with a spinner, under any weather condition. I personally like it in the rain atm with Bug Buzz/Hurricane, but I've also used it to some success on sand teams as part of a FWG core.