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BW2 In-Game Tier List Discussion [Updated 7/24]
- Thread starter Stellar
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IIRC there were separate entries for trade and non-trade, but generally the differences aren't too significant (BW Gurdurr, RB Kadabra, etc.).
Timburr is still a solid pick because he gets a gym to destroy with Rock Throw, and Fighting + Rock is still pretty good. If you want to, you can grab one of the Elemental Punches for him at Driftveil (though it comes at the cost of not being able to do other fun stuff like Signal Beam Volcarona).
BW1 Gurdurr was still one of the best Pokemon, and it's not really screwed badly as say, Sawk (>.<)
onix was never good
and the next three gyms (with the exception of drayden) don't give it an easy time either: skyla has swanna, and marlon is self-explanatory.
For Magby/Elekid, they're ok but they don't really provide anything to the table aside from weak coverage. I guess Electivire may be useful with Motor Drive... somehow... but Magmortar is kind of iffy. You probably shouldn't evolve Magmar.
Right, so. I play too much Pokemon for my own good. *cracks knuckles* let's do it (gonna add a "T" to every theory vote).
Absol - can set up and sweep on Shauntal and Caitlin (as long as you're willing to use full restores), and that's where his usefulness ends. Still, not Bottom, but rather Low, because he's usable as soon as you get him (albeit for random trainers mostly).
Audino - yeah, no, I'm not that hardcore (despite having to use this crap in my nuzlocke geez). Theorymoning Bottom. (T)
Banette - good moveset (with TMs at least), but has very weak defenses and speed. It managed to kill Caitlin's Musharna somehow. That's the best I got out of him. Bottom.
Basculin - this thing has great coverage, with above average attack and speed to back it up. Kind of usable special too. The problem is that if it doesn't manage to get OHKO, it will get destroyed, as it has pretty much non-existant defenses. It can be useful however, as it has enough power to OHKO frail pokes due to good coverage (I was running double edge, superpower, aqua tail and crunch). Low.
Bouffalant - not only you get him extremely late, but it's very possible that you won't even have Swords Dance when you do E4. Bottom. (T)
Buizel - lighting fast, high attack, has very nice coverage with crunch/aqua tail/ice punch. It would be strong High, but sadly, it has issues. Very bad bulk, coupled with lack of proper stat boosting move until post game, means it needs to score OHKO or face serious retaliation. For that reason you're pretty much forced to hunt for Buizel without -Atk Nature. If you can do it however, he's great vs Skyla, Drayden, Shauntal, Caitlin (50/50, because you know, Reflect) and Iris. I'd go for Mid.
Buneary - it's not completely useless as it has nice speed and Jump Kick. He can run all elemental punches if you're willing to spend shards on those. What that basically means most of the time is that he comes in, kills something in two or three hits, then needs to be switched out as he's almost dead. Bottom.
Castform - yeah, no, I'm not that crazy.
Cleafairy - great moveset. Of course, you're better off just using Metronome and hoping for Aeroblast or something, lol. Bottom.
Combee - can be pretty good with Quick Claw and Defend Order set-up. Of course that requires setting up on nearly every stronger trainer, praying for luck and not using Lucky Egg. Bottom.
Cottonee - high, because you can trade it for a Petlil ;D Bottom otherwise. (T)
Cubchoo - it's possible to have Beartic before Skylla without too much grinding, and then fun begins. He's also very capable against Drayden's Haxorus, but his other pokes are a gamble (Druddigon carries Revenge, while Flygon has Rock Slide). He can more or less clear the gym for you though. And.. that's pretty much it. Also Cubchoo needs exp share before evolving as he's weak and has crap moves. Low.
Deerling - pretty good actually. Kind of like Buizel (fast, strong, good moveset) but more bulky. Clay and Marlon are his bitches. Very useful against Corless too, not to mention about half of normal Team Plasma trainers. Can take out Grimsley also, however it's not guaranteed. He can also take Caitlin's Musharna and Gothilette rather easily, but Reflect can prove problematic. Not high, because after Clay he will not shine too much until Seigaha and Plasma Frigate. Mid.
To be continued :P
Absol - can set up and sweep on Shauntal and Caitlin (as long as you're willing to use full restores), and that's where his usefulness ends. Still, not Bottom, but rather Low, because he's usable as soon as you get him (albeit for random trainers mostly).
Audino - yeah, no, I'm not that hardcore (despite having to use this crap in my nuzlocke geez). Theorymoning Bottom. (T)
Banette - good moveset (with TMs at least), but has very weak defenses and speed. It managed to kill Caitlin's Musharna somehow. That's the best I got out of him. Bottom.
Basculin - this thing has great coverage, with above average attack and speed to back it up. Kind of usable special too. The problem is that if it doesn't manage to get OHKO, it will get destroyed, as it has pretty much non-existant defenses. It can be useful however, as it has enough power to OHKO frail pokes due to good coverage (I was running double edge, superpower, aqua tail and crunch). Low.
Bouffalant - not only you get him extremely late, but it's very possible that you won't even have Swords Dance when you do E4. Bottom. (T)
Buizel - lighting fast, high attack, has very nice coverage with crunch/aqua tail/ice punch. It would be strong High, but sadly, it has issues. Very bad bulk, coupled with lack of proper stat boosting move until post game, means it needs to score OHKO or face serious retaliation. For that reason you're pretty much forced to hunt for Buizel without -Atk Nature. If you can do it however, he's great vs Skyla, Drayden, Shauntal, Caitlin (50/50, because you know, Reflect) and Iris. I'd go for Mid.
Buneary - it's not completely useless as it has nice speed and Jump Kick. He can run all elemental punches if you're willing to spend shards on those. What that basically means most of the time is that he comes in, kills something in two or three hits, then needs to be switched out as he's almost dead. Bottom.
Castform - yeah, no, I'm not that crazy.
Cleafairy - great moveset. Of course, you're better off just using Metronome and hoping for Aeroblast or something, lol. Bottom.
Combee - can be pretty good with Quick Claw and Defend Order set-up. Of course that requires setting up on nearly every stronger trainer, praying for luck and not using Lucky Egg. Bottom.
Cottonee - high, because you can trade it for a Petlil ;D Bottom otherwise. (T)
Cubchoo - it's possible to have Beartic before Skylla without too much grinding, and then fun begins. He's also very capable against Drayden's Haxorus, but his other pokes are a gamble (Druddigon carries Revenge, while Flygon has Rock Slide). He can more or less clear the gym for you though. And.. that's pretty much it. Also Cubchoo needs exp share before evolving as he's weak and has crap moves. Low.
Deerling - pretty good actually. Kind of like Buizel (fast, strong, good moveset) but more bulky. Clay and Marlon are his bitches. Very useful against Corless too, not to mention about half of normal Team Plasma trainers. Can take out Grimsley also, however it's not guaranteed. He can also take Caitlin's Musharna and Gothilette rather easily, but Reflect can prove problematic. Not high, because after Clay he will not shine too much until Seigaha and Plasma Frigate. Mid.
To be continued :P
Manveru, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with Clefairy, Absol, Banette, Bouffalant, Buneary, and Cottonee.
Clefairy has the ever wonderful Stored Power + Cosmic Power meaning that it can sweep with relative ease if it so desires, Absol has a wonderful base Attack supplemented by good STAB moves, Banette is bad but not that bad given its high base Attack and ability to learn Will-o-wisp, Bouffalant is at a whopping level 56 in the wild, which means it's a few levels over most of the Elite Four to begin with, Buneary has strong STAB initially with Return and has nice coverage with Jump Kick, and the traded Cottonee is actually quite strong due to the superior SpA IV (I'd assume the normal ones are ok, at least).
Clefairy has the ever wonderful Stored Power + Cosmic Power meaning that it can sweep with relative ease if it so desires, Absol has a wonderful base Attack supplemented by good STAB moves, Banette is bad but not that bad given its high base Attack and ability to learn Will-o-wisp, Bouffalant is at a whopping level 56 in the wild, which means it's a few levels over most of the Elite Four to begin with, Buneary has strong STAB initially with Return and has nice coverage with Jump Kick, and the traded Cottonee is actually quite strong due to the superior SpA IV (I'd assume the normal ones are ok, at least).
So this is going to sound weird, but I keep seeing "Means they can't have lucky egg"
Which....there's only one of the things. You're going to be shuffling it around assuming you are dead-set on constantly using it through the entire second half of the game. What's wrong with just switching your held item until you reach whatever level you were going for.
Which....there's only one of the things. You're going to be shuffling it around assuming you are dead-set on constantly using it through the entire second half of the game. What's wrong with just switching your held item until you reach whatever level you were going for.
Hello, we're talking about in game here, remember?
Stored Power + Cosmic Power is pointless, you're just wasting time setting this up every single fight. How is that efficient? Every pokemon with stat boosting moves can "sweep with relative ease if it so desires". That does not suddenly make them viable.
Absol has high attack with good stab moves, yet he still needs swords dance to get OHKOS, especially since only TWO serious trainers in the game are weak to his STAB. Setting up, read above.
Banette has "high" attack, yet is slow as hell, and has poor defensive stats. And Will'O'Wisp in game? Are you really not trolling?
Buneary can't utilize stab and jump kick well because it has poor offensive stats. There is not a single reason to use an inferior pokemon like that, other than, well, tiering purposes.
Also, about Cottonee, are you REALLY not trolling? Have you SEEN its stats as Whimsicott? 67 atk, 77 special? It's fast and that's it. Lilligant is better at everything by a huge margin.
And Bouffalant is only useable vs E4, where he gets absolutely no advantage offensively or defensively. There's always a better pokemon to use against every E4 member.
And you, just like everyone else, are encouraged to play through the game with these pokes and rate them. It's far from fun forcing yourself to use something that plain sucks, but hey, some people do that. If only to get a first hand experience before tiering (where it makes sense at least).
@up
Because Lucky Egg is a big deal. Shuffling it around is not a problem as it takes what, 3 seconds to do? The benefit it gives is huge.
Stored Power Clefairy comes at level 50 and pretty much levels up about three times in the whole of the game. Throughout those levels, you can use Body Slam pretty easily or (if you so desire) even use Hyper Voice by tutor. Cosmic Power / Stored Power allows you to cheese every major boss fight that follows, excluding Marshal. I think that's significant.
Absol does not need Swords Dance to achieve OHKOes given its huge attack stat and high critrate. Swords Dance is icing on the cake.
Banette can't be that bad; I would put it in Low, but I guess I could see Bottom.
Buneary has 76 base Attack. I was able to get through one run with the traded Whimsicott, and that has 77 base and runs the weaker Giga Drain. Lopunny can't be that terrible of an attacker.
Again, the traded Cottonee levels like crazy, has a 31 IV + boosting nature, and comes with Giga Drain a few levels away. It's not the best Pokemon, but it's far from useless in any sense. You're exaggerating the how bad 77 base is.
Bouffalant gets no advantage, but it outlevels most of the Elite Four and is one of the few Pokemon that exists that can take a hit from Hydreigon without dying to it and OHKO. That's pretty special, IMO.
Absol does not need Swords Dance to achieve OHKOes given its huge attack stat and high critrate. Swords Dance is icing on the cake.
Banette can't be that bad; I would put it in Low, but I guess I could see Bottom.
Buneary has 76 base Attack. I was able to get through one run with the traded Whimsicott, and that has 77 base and runs the weaker Giga Drain. Lopunny can't be that terrible of an attacker.
Again, the traded Cottonee levels like crazy, has a 31 IV + boosting nature, and comes with Giga Drain a few levels away. It's not the best Pokemon, but it's far from useless in any sense. You're exaggerating the how bad 77 base is.
Bouffalant gets no advantage, but it outlevels most of the Elite Four and is one of the few Pokemon that exists that can take a hit from Hydreigon without dying to it and OHKO. That's pretty special, IMO.
You could also use Dunsparce with Coil to achieve a similar result. Does that mean Dunsparce should be highly rated? I know setting up can cheese the game, but the reason some pokes are rated high/top is because they can achieve same results without the need to set up. I'm rating by comparing pokemon by their raw power, and I believe I'm reasonably accurate. Remember this is all about efficiency: if a pokemon needs to set up to be viable, it's pretty much never going to be rated higher than bottom or low, because even mid pokes can handle themselves reasonably well (like Buizel, to use a recent example). If a pokemon can just "get by", then yeah, he's bottom or low and that's that.
You're also overestimating Absol's power. A normal Absol from in game (meaning with a random nature and random EVs) will miss OHKOs against some E4 pokes even with stab super effective attacks. And I'm speaking from experience here. Night Slash is only 70 BP and believe me when I say that it shows.
Ultimately we're not required to agree either way, as the rank is an average of votes.
I'm not gonna say an overwhelming amount (both to tiredness and that a lot of the stuff you said is accurate), but 2 things:
1: Regarding Cottonee, I remember back with the B/W1 ingame tiers he was considered Lower-Midish by a few peeps if solely because of Prankster Leech Seed and Stun Spore helping to cripple certain opponents, thus giving it a tiny niche that isn't entirely offensive. I doubt you'll agree, but I'm just throwing it out that Cottonee, virtually offenseless as it is, isn't absolute dead weight.
2: Not to be rude, but I kinda think you may be being a little too harsh with some of the ratings. I remember back with the B/W1 ingame tiers we had argued for an Upper-Mid and a Lower-Mid to help better rank certain mons due to the sheer amount of options they were as well as to help give the most accurate possible rankings. I think Bottom should only really be reserved to things like Purrloin, Onix, Corsola, Castform and Ditto which are absolute gutter trash with no uses when you first obtain them and have absolutely no possible hope in any way for redemption later on. Stuff like Clefairy and Buneary I feel are more Low than Bottom, as they are at points theoretically useful (Buneary with Frustration I imagine could wreck house early on due to low happiness), but that's just imo. Sorry if this is like a pointless rant or whatever, just felt like putting it out here.
On a tiering note, since I mentioned Bottom Tier...
Skitty for GUTTER TRASH TIER. This thing is Buneary, a Pokemon which is already Low in the ingame tiers according to many of us, only worse in every concievable way. ALL of its stats are lower than Bunearys (except Defense, higher by ONE point and mitigated by lower HP), only learns Normal type attacks by level up save for the weak Wake Up Slap and Faint Attack (meanwhile Buneary gets JUMP KICK AT LEVEL 22) and to make this crippling thing worse is that one of its abilities can be Normalise, meaning even if for some conceivable reason you want to use this, you have to search for a specific one just to ensure it gets TYPE COVERAGE. Oh, and as a Delcatty, an unevolved Buneary hits harder and is faster than it, and it suffers the same problem all stone evolution Pokes do with regards to level up moves. And we thought cats couldn't get worse than Purrloin... Skitty is just BEYOND USELESS.
Pokes who are an ABSOLUTE dead weight and have NO uses whatsoever are extremely rare. You can in theory make almost anything work. Some of my ratings would be Bottom-Low if such tier existed for sure. However I'll try to be less harsh in the future (should be done with second part in the evening) and we'll see how that goes.
Actually, i've used Absol and found it quite useful. I was lucky enough to find an adamant one at the third or fourth try, though. Anyway, it was pretty powerful and didn't get outsped but by the fastest pokemon, plus critical hits landed just when i needed them and SD is so useful in E4 and other late bosses. All in all, I'd say Mid because of its late availability and it not having the sheer power other pokemon have.
I'd rate both Minccino and Roselia for high. Both are found quite early and have sufficient speed and power. You get 2 shiny stones in game, right when you need them to evolve and in time for roselia to learn petal dance. Minccino has good coverage and is very fun to use, especially the hidden hollow one, while roselia can run support moves and the situational but fun weather ball.
Growlithe for mid. I actually used two o f them, one completely physical and unevolved until flareblitz, while the other running a mixed set and evolving at level 34, getting flamethrower as a grolithe and extremspeed as an arcanine at one time. I feel that using an unevolved pokemon until level43 isnt worth it, even though eventually you get a very powerful pokemon. On the other hand, the mixed arcanine was much more powerful throughout the game, it could actually outspeed, OHKO or 2HKO and didn't get KOed every 2 fights, but i guess its overshadowed in the very late game and post E4. Both options are good, but i think evolving it ASAP is more efficient, and you can just breed a good one post game and EV it.
Oshawott for high. Kind of speedy, strong in both side of the spectrum, blessed with a good moveset and the best starter for sure. Not much has changed for it from the original BW, i guess.
As rare as they may be, they still exist (Delibird for example), and that's what the tier is for.
Cottonee being low-mid in bw1 was already kind of pushing it, but Prankster Stun Spore does help to cheese certain enemies in BW1 that're probably difficult aka Hydreigon. this wasn't really much of a big deal though considering there are like faster guys who get twave (zebstrika, cobalion)
I guess it can help a bit as well, but considering that Iris is a lot easier compared to Ghetsis imo (Iris has 4 pokemon of the same type and 1 of the remaining two being able to be easily taken out by whoever is your ice beam user, generally a water-type, while Ghetsis doesn't specialise and Hydreigon has ridiculous coverage, etc) and Haxorus actually has a sash, I'd actually prefer something like Boldore only because it can setup SR to make it easier for some ppl to nab ohkos.
Cottonee is probably Bottom, considering that his job is done by others better (or they just kill the guy outright). Be glad that at least, its not as useless as the amazing Sunkern.
I guess it can help a bit as well, but considering that Iris is a lot easier compared to Ghetsis imo (Iris has 4 pokemon of the same type and 1 of the remaining two being able to be easily taken out by whoever is your ice beam user, generally a water-type, while Ghetsis doesn't specialise and Hydreigon has ridiculous coverage, etc) and Haxorus actually has a sash, I'd actually prefer something like Boldore only because it can setup SR to make it easier for some ppl to nab ohkos.
Cottonee is probably Bottom, considering that his job is done by others better (or they just kill the guy outright). Be glad that at least, its not as useless as the amazing Sunkern.
Ditto - Bottom. Explanation needed? Yeah didn't think so.
Drifblim - suberb bulk, but only learns a few useful moves, and only one of them through level up. Great against Marshal (can actually take a non crit rock attack), useful against Shauntal and Caitlin too. You're forced to use Acrobatics as a flying STAB (or Fly, but that's just meh). Thunderbolt TM comes too late to be of use. It has however set up potential - while CM comes in post game, it has access to Amnesia and Stockpile. Mid.
Druddigon - only useable vs E4, so most likely will be untrained. No sweeping potential, as it's too slow and will keep eating hits. It is however very strong, and gets good moves from both tutors and level up. Low.
Dunsparce - a pain to find (especially if you're set on Serene Grace), but despite being a derpy snake thing, he's not bad. Early game, he can handle his own reasonably well due to decent stats, but sooner or later he will start falling behind (no evolution blows). Good level up moveset, can learn a bunch of coverage moves from tutors and TMs. To keep up with everyone else, you're basically forced to Coil almost every battle. Low, because coiling for random trainers is not acceptable.
Dwebble - superb. Can take Elesa (TM Dig), Skyla and Caitlin right off the bat. But the best part is that he gets Shell Smash, eliminating his speed problem and allowing him to hit pretty damn hard. If you get one with Sturdy, you're guaranteed a Shell Smash vs pretty much anyone, and that's huge. Without it, he is kind of slow, but great defense, above average attack and only 3 weaknesses (one of them being Steel lol) means that he can hold his own well against normal trainers without having to rely on boosts. High.
Elgyem - great special, below average bulk and horrible speed. Learns Psychic and Calm Mind through level up, but needs TMs/tutors to have any sort of coverage. Not particularly useful at any point, as his speed proves to be very problematic. Low.
Emolga - fast, good ability, only two weaknesses. Everything else, sucks. Poor stats other than speed, especially paper defenses. Dies to everything. Needs to use Acrobatics for STAB or lose Lucky Egg, also stuck with Electro Ball until 50 or Thunderbolt TM (albeit that's not TOO bad, as she has good synergy with Electro Ball thanks to her speed). Can only learn Bug coverage moves, but Signal Beam requires shards, and that's a huge waste. Useless. Bottom.
Espeon - happines evolution sucks, but it's worth it. He doesn't mind having poor bulk, as 130 special with 110 speed is just amazing. Learns Psychic at 37, which is quite early. Sadly the only other two worthwhile special moves it can learn are Shadow Ball and Signal Beam, so it doesn't really have an amazing super effective coverage. Because of his poor defenses, Shauntal, Caitlin and even Marshal (god that Sawk) are capable of revenge killing him. He's very strong against Team Plasma grunts at least :P Mid.
Drifblim - suberb bulk, but only learns a few useful moves, and only one of them through level up. Great against Marshal (can actually take a non crit rock attack), useful against Shauntal and Caitlin too. You're forced to use Acrobatics as a flying STAB (or Fly, but that's just meh). Thunderbolt TM comes too late to be of use. It has however set up potential - while CM comes in post game, it has access to Amnesia and Stockpile. Mid.
Druddigon - only useable vs E4, so most likely will be untrained. No sweeping potential, as it's too slow and will keep eating hits. It is however very strong, and gets good moves from both tutors and level up. Low.
Dunsparce - a pain to find (especially if you're set on Serene Grace), but despite being a derpy snake thing, he's not bad. Early game, he can handle his own reasonably well due to decent stats, but sooner or later he will start falling behind (no evolution blows). Good level up moveset, can learn a bunch of coverage moves from tutors and TMs. To keep up with everyone else, you're basically forced to Coil almost every battle. Low, because coiling for random trainers is not acceptable.
Dwebble - superb. Can take Elesa (TM Dig), Skyla and Caitlin right off the bat. But the best part is that he gets Shell Smash, eliminating his speed problem and allowing him to hit pretty damn hard. If you get one with Sturdy, you're guaranteed a Shell Smash vs pretty much anyone, and that's huge. Without it, he is kind of slow, but great defense, above average attack and only 3 weaknesses (one of them being Steel lol) means that he can hold his own well against normal trainers without having to rely on boosts. High.
Elgyem - great special, below average bulk and horrible speed. Learns Psychic and Calm Mind through level up, but needs TMs/tutors to have any sort of coverage. Not particularly useful at any point, as his speed proves to be very problematic. Low.
Emolga - fast, good ability, only two weaknesses. Everything else, sucks. Poor stats other than speed, especially paper defenses. Dies to everything. Needs to use Acrobatics for STAB or lose Lucky Egg, also stuck with Electro Ball until 50 or Thunderbolt TM (albeit that's not TOO bad, as she has good synergy with Electro Ball thanks to her speed). Can only learn Bug coverage moves, but Signal Beam requires shards, and that's a huge waste. Useless. Bottom.
Espeon - happines evolution sucks, but it's worth it. He doesn't mind having poor bulk, as 130 special with 110 speed is just amazing. Learns Psychic at 37, which is quite early. Sadly the only other two worthwhile special moves it can learn are Shadow Ball and Signal Beam, so it doesn't really have an amazing super effective coverage. Because of his poor defenses, Shauntal, Caitlin and even Marshal (god that Sawk) are capable of revenge killing him. He's very strong against Team Plasma grunts at least :P Mid.
I haven't updated this thread in a while because the number of votes trickling in has been very small. Things seem to be picking up lately, so I'll update in another week or so. Remember: you can submit votes based purely on theory as long as you back up your vote logically and clearly mark the your vote with the words "Theory Vote"!
I really like the discussion that has been occurring lately, it is very entertaining to read. Keep it up guys, but remember to keep the arguments civil!
I really like the discussion that has been occurring lately, it is very entertaining to read. Keep it up guys, but remember to keep the arguments civil!
And yet, you have only one of those. I'm sure you don't need to have your whole team hold Lucky Egg 100% of the time, specially because it's impossible (and frankly, not even that necessary).
For me it's a difference between having to grind and not having to grind. That's pure efficiency, not a requirement, same as it's not required to go through the game with only top/high rated pokes. And the alternative items quite frankly suck ass, as I don't think you'll be rocking Life Orbs and Choice stuff. It's very possible to have close to 100% uptime with lucky egg unless it's like your first or second playthrough and you switch pokemon a lot during battles.
Ferroseed - a mixed bag so to speak. Phenomenal typing, great bulk, above average attack, learns powerful STAB moves by level, and is able to work his way around every single trainer in the game, as long as he does not have fire or fighting moves. On the other hand, he's a potion hog due to very poor speed, grass/steel is not the best coverage ever (albeit he's a very good user of Payback too), and his Ferroseed phase lasts for 13 levels, during which he requires serious babying. I believe Mid is fair, although I was strongly leaning towards High.
Foongus - imagine Ferroseed with worse typing, less power, less bulk, poor offensive moves other than STAB, and almost as slow. However, his attacking stats are not horrible, effect spore is a cool ability, Giga Drain offsets his poor speed somewhat, and he's a very good user of Venoshock. Also not completely useless when you catch it, as it has an advantage over Clay's gym (just keep him away from Excadrill). Low-mid, but more Low than Mid.
Frillish - nice bulk (especially special), powerful abilities, great STAB options (albeit by TM/HM usage). But he's slow and his special is only "good". Also there's no reason whatsoever to use him over Buizel, who you can get at the same time. Low.
Golurk - comes extremely late and is pretty much useless vs E4. Bottom.
Gothita - poor ability, slow, above average bulk and special attack. But Psychic STAB is only good vs Team Plasma grunts and Marshall (and Sawk has Sturdy+Payback). You can however tutor Signal Beam on her if you really want, after that it's a wait until Shadow Ball, Energy Ball and Thunderbolt. Ends up with nice coverage but doesn't have enough offensive stats to fully utilize it. Leaning towards Low, but I can see how decent bulk and only three weaknesses (lol bug) can be useful, so Mid. (T)
Grimer - the only way for this guy to do anything at all is to hoard shards so you can tutor elemental punches on him. He's a physical attacker who learns a lot of special moves (well there's Pound and Fling too, wooot!), best STAB comes late and has 70% accuracy, TM coverage options top out at 80 BP (and it's a two turn Dig). He is however quite bulky and has only two weaknesses, so in theory he's usable if you feel like Pounding things to death. Literally. Bottom.
Jolteon - Thunderstone awaits you right before Mistralon City, so perfect timing, and RIGHT on time for Discharge at 37. Phenomenal speed, very good special, but paper defenses. Easily beats Skyla and Marlon, is very capable vs Shauntal and Caitlin, also useful vs Iris. Sadly he's not great vs Team Plasma and sucks bad vs their leaders. Obviously Drayden is also out of his league. Mid.
Foongus - imagine Ferroseed with worse typing, less power, less bulk, poor offensive moves other than STAB, and almost as slow. However, his attacking stats are not horrible, effect spore is a cool ability, Giga Drain offsets his poor speed somewhat, and he's a very good user of Venoshock. Also not completely useless when you catch it, as it has an advantage over Clay's gym (just keep him away from Excadrill). Low-mid, but more Low than Mid.
Frillish - nice bulk (especially special), powerful abilities, great STAB options (albeit by TM/HM usage). But he's slow and his special is only "good". Also there's no reason whatsoever to use him over Buizel, who you can get at the same time. Low.
Golurk - comes extremely late and is pretty much useless vs E4. Bottom.
Gothita - poor ability, slow, above average bulk and special attack. But Psychic STAB is only good vs Team Plasma grunts and Marshall (and Sawk has Sturdy+Payback). You can however tutor Signal Beam on her if you really want, after that it's a wait until Shadow Ball, Energy Ball and Thunderbolt. Ends up with nice coverage but doesn't have enough offensive stats to fully utilize it. Leaning towards Low, but I can see how decent bulk and only three weaknesses (lol bug) can be useful, so Mid. (T)
Grimer - the only way for this guy to do anything at all is to hoard shards so you can tutor elemental punches on him. He's a physical attacker who learns a lot of special moves (well there's Pound and Fling too, wooot!), best STAB comes late and has 70% accuracy, TM coverage options top out at 80 BP (and it's a two turn Dig). He is however quite bulky and has only two weaknesses, so in theory he's usable if you feel like Pounding things to death. Literally. Bottom.
Jolteon - Thunderstone awaits you right before Mistralon City, so perfect timing, and RIGHT on time for Discharge at 37. Phenomenal speed, very good special, but paper defenses. Easily beats Skyla and Marlon, is very capable vs Shauntal and Caitlin, also useful vs Iris. Sadly he's not great vs Team Plasma and sucks bad vs their leaders. Obviously Drayden is also out of his league. Mid.
(These are all theory votes, but I feel they're pretty damn well thought out)
All 3 monkeys for Bottom. Now that you're no longer given one for free, it's a nightmare to actually be able to find one of these fuckers, let alone get them to have a usable nature. They're also all sorely outclassed from the get-go by alternative options at this point due to their terrible stats in their pre-evolved forms, as well as the presence of good Grass types RIGHT WHERE YOU GET THEM (Roselia and Petilil particularly, hell even Swadloon would be a better pick than Pansage). The only real plus to having them is that they come with Flame Burst/Scald/Seed Bomb, so you can evolve them right away, but really they're not worth the effort at ALL. Panpour's the best of a bad bunch, but imo still isn't worth it.
Zubat for Mid (Lower-Mid if you get a Mid split again). This may seem surprising, but I'd argue Zubat's not really that terrible. You get a powerful Wing Attack as soon as you get it as well as a Gym for it to solo for free (except Dwebble), at which point it'll likely evolve into Golbat, which at that point is a pretty damn good 'Mon. You have Venoshock for immediate Poison coverage which although not amazing can still get the job done, and although you suck VS. Elesa, Clay is another free victory. Early Acrobatics (Level 33, right after Clay pretty much) also helps make up later on, and friendship evolution can easily be manipulated to your own ends to get a Crobat aroundabout the late 20s-early 30s. When it evolves you also get far better move access, including Cross Poison and X-Scissor, as well as Giga Drain and Heat Wave via Move Tutor if you really want to, although the latter 2 don't come till Seigaiha. It's not amazingly effective against most of the strong trainers afterwards (I'd say it particularly struggles VS. the many Plasma Poison types) and isn't quite as strong as you'd want it to be, but it's pretty damn well rounded (especially as Crobat), and I'm not exactly arguing it for Top tier, just Mid, which I feel it fits the bill for.
Braviary for High. I'd expect this thing is an absolute BEAST early on thanks to its sheer strength, and it even has a fair degree of bulk thanks to 100/75/75 defenses, which though not amazing definitely allow it to take a hit, maybe even 2 sometimes. You can level it up a little bit so it gets Slash (or you could eventually teach it Return), at which point you're ready to go to town on a lot of things. You could even make a case for it beating most of Nimbasa Gym despite the weakness, thanks to its power and a little bit of bulk, although Elesa is another story due to Volt Switch. You can plough through a lot of areas in the game thanks to its sheer strength, and when you get to Yamaji Town you can tutor it Superpower early on to give it some coverage beyond mono-Flying. It's biggest problems imo are its mediocre speed (not so much early but definitely shows later on) and that it doesn't really learn too many powerful moves, it doesn't get Brave Bird unless you grind severely, leaving its best Flying move as Fly, but seeing how powerful it is, and how you get this beast of a mon only right after Burgh, I'd say it definitely warrants High. DESTROYS mid-game, but later on falters only a teeny bit.
Sandshrew for Low. Gets a free gym (save Emolgas) to gain experience, has pretty damn high Physical stats, and the pretty powerful (albeit unreliable) Magnitude at level 17. So why Low? Simple, awful offensive movepool, KOed by most Special attacks, and pretty damn slow, meaning you'll take a lot of hits and if it's against the wrong thing, you're weakened, if not dead. Also does barely anything against the major trainers of the game. Does pretty good against Plasma though, albeit only if you get Rock Slide from Mistralton Cave, otherwise I'd say it's bad, but not without its minor uses.
Combee for Bottom. It's fucking Combee, you have to work to find one that can EVOLVE, and Vespiquen's pretty awful as well thanks to its awful typing and even worse movepool. I don't think this needs much more explanation.
Karrablast for Bottom. This thing did admittedly get helped a little bit thanks to Shelmet being far earlier, as well as getting a Bug Bite tutor to help give it STAB (although it is bad), but it still lacks a movepool, is still shockingly slow, and none of its other problems were fixed whatsoever. Gets SLIGHTLY better later on as it gains X-Scissor instead of Bug Bite in addition to Iron Head, but it gets NO moves to use its great typing and attack with, which is quite depressing.
Nosepass for Low. You may think I'm trolling by not putting it in outright Bottom, but funnily enough, this thing does have its (rather niche) uses. You can evolve it into Probopass immediately by killing a bunch of Joltik or something and then you gain the AMAZING for in-game Steel type to work with. It pairs up incredibly well VS. 2 of the 3 gyms it faces (although watch out for Swanna and Flygon), and can almost solo both of them. It's incredible bulk and Steel typing ensures that unless it's hit by a 4X super-effective move, it's not gonna be knocked out easily, and you can remedy that further by getting one with Sturdy so it can least do something to those foes. It lacks offense and Speed sure, but it could do surprisingly well considering all these factors. It also gains Earth Power and Discharge not too later on, so it can actually easily beat the Plasma goons plaguing you. Not absolutely godly, but not total garbage either.
May have more coming up tomorrow, if any opinions differ please don't hesitate to argue your case. :)
All 3 monkeys for Bottom. Now that you're no longer given one for free, it's a nightmare to actually be able to find one of these fuckers, let alone get them to have a usable nature. They're also all sorely outclassed from the get-go by alternative options at this point due to their terrible stats in their pre-evolved forms, as well as the presence of good Grass types RIGHT WHERE YOU GET THEM (Roselia and Petilil particularly, hell even Swadloon would be a better pick than Pansage). The only real plus to having them is that they come with Flame Burst/Scald/Seed Bomb, so you can evolve them right away, but really they're not worth the effort at ALL. Panpour's the best of a bad bunch, but imo still isn't worth it.
Zubat for Mid (Lower-Mid if you get a Mid split again). This may seem surprising, but I'd argue Zubat's not really that terrible. You get a powerful Wing Attack as soon as you get it as well as a Gym for it to solo for free (except Dwebble), at which point it'll likely evolve into Golbat, which at that point is a pretty damn good 'Mon. You have Venoshock for immediate Poison coverage which although not amazing can still get the job done, and although you suck VS. Elesa, Clay is another free victory. Early Acrobatics (Level 33, right after Clay pretty much) also helps make up later on, and friendship evolution can easily be manipulated to your own ends to get a Crobat aroundabout the late 20s-early 30s. When it evolves you also get far better move access, including Cross Poison and X-Scissor, as well as Giga Drain and Heat Wave via Move Tutor if you really want to, although the latter 2 don't come till Seigaiha. It's not amazingly effective against most of the strong trainers afterwards (I'd say it particularly struggles VS. the many Plasma Poison types) and isn't quite as strong as you'd want it to be, but it's pretty damn well rounded (especially as Crobat), and I'm not exactly arguing it for Top tier, just Mid, which I feel it fits the bill for.
Braviary for High. I'd expect this thing is an absolute BEAST early on thanks to its sheer strength, and it even has a fair degree of bulk thanks to 100/75/75 defenses, which though not amazing definitely allow it to take a hit, maybe even 2 sometimes. You can level it up a little bit so it gets Slash (or you could eventually teach it Return), at which point you're ready to go to town on a lot of things. You could even make a case for it beating most of Nimbasa Gym despite the weakness, thanks to its power and a little bit of bulk, although Elesa is another story due to Volt Switch. You can plough through a lot of areas in the game thanks to its sheer strength, and when you get to Yamaji Town you can tutor it Superpower early on to give it some coverage beyond mono-Flying. It's biggest problems imo are its mediocre speed (not so much early but definitely shows later on) and that it doesn't really learn too many powerful moves, it doesn't get Brave Bird unless you grind severely, leaving its best Flying move as Fly, but seeing how powerful it is, and how you get this beast of a mon only right after Burgh, I'd say it definitely warrants High. DESTROYS mid-game, but later on falters only a teeny bit.
Sandshrew for Low. Gets a free gym (save Emolgas) to gain experience, has pretty damn high Physical stats, and the pretty powerful (albeit unreliable) Magnitude at level 17. So why Low? Simple, awful offensive movepool, KOed by most Special attacks, and pretty damn slow, meaning you'll take a lot of hits and if it's against the wrong thing, you're weakened, if not dead. Also does barely anything against the major trainers of the game. Does pretty good against Plasma though, albeit only if you get Rock Slide from Mistralton Cave, otherwise I'd say it's bad, but not without its minor uses.
Combee for Bottom. It's fucking Combee, you have to work to find one that can EVOLVE, and Vespiquen's pretty awful as well thanks to its awful typing and even worse movepool. I don't think this needs much more explanation.
Karrablast for Bottom. This thing did admittedly get helped a little bit thanks to Shelmet being far earlier, as well as getting a Bug Bite tutor to help give it STAB (although it is bad), but it still lacks a movepool, is still shockingly slow, and none of its other problems were fixed whatsoever. Gets SLIGHTLY better later on as it gains X-Scissor instead of Bug Bite in addition to Iron Head, but it gets NO moves to use its great typing and attack with, which is quite depressing.
Nosepass for Low. You may think I'm trolling by not putting it in outright Bottom, but funnily enough, this thing does have its (rather niche) uses. You can evolve it into Probopass immediately by killing a bunch of Joltik or something and then you gain the AMAZING for in-game Steel type to work with. It pairs up incredibly well VS. 2 of the 3 gyms it faces (although watch out for Swanna and Flygon), and can almost solo both of them. It's incredible bulk and Steel typing ensures that unless it's hit by a 4X super-effective move, it's not gonna be knocked out easily, and you can remedy that further by getting one with Sturdy so it can least do something to those foes. It lacks offense and Speed sure, but it could do surprisingly well considering all these factors. It also gains Earth Power and Discharge not too later on, so it can actually easily beat the Plasma goons plaguing you. Not absolutely godly, but not total garbage either.
May have more coming up tomorrow, if any opinions differ please don't hesitate to argue your case. :)
IMO Ferroseed should be mid. He has to suffer from ~15 levels of shittiness to become good, which is a shame considering Ferrothorn literally walls like 90% of the remaining boss fights (yeah there's only like chandelure and marshall, ferro walls the 3 remaining leaders, shits all over kyurem and ghetsis, and pretty much shits on anything that isn't a fire type) you can also dump rocky helmet to increase damage from iron barbs.
ferro's only drawback is having to deal with a shitty stage of ferroseed and having shit speed meaning it has to get hit every time to fight. at the very least though you're rewarded with something that can literally wall the shit out of whatever else you're probably going to face.
also imo scald might be something that can help panpour get into low or something since random burn-spreading is pretty good, plus tm55 is pretty late in bw2
ferro's only drawback is having to deal with a shitty stage of ferroseed and having shit speed meaning it has to get hit every time to fight. at the very least though you're rewarded with something that can literally wall the shit out of whatever else you're probably going to face.
also imo scald might be something that can help panpour get into low or something since random burn-spreading is pretty good, plus tm55 is pretty late in bw2
I completely forgot about that one! Does not change anything though as Jolteon is.. well not exactly great before Skyla :P
And Simipour is faster than Haxorus, has above average both special and physical attack, and access to A LOT of moves through TMs and move tutors (most notable being Superpower, Ice Beam, Blizzard, Acrobatics). That thing is Mid. Although I think I've said so a few pages back.
Doesn't change the fact that it is a nightmare to obtain, so no, keep it Low at best.
I'd definitely appreciate an electric immunity to tank Elesa's volt switches :O
I'm not sure about Simipour tbh. I feel it does have a case because it basically has exclusive Scald for a long time, but it's not exactly something game-breaking when Surf exists. And as far as water-types go it has even more competition than before... Low imo. He's got quite a bit going for him that makes him not bottom...
Come on guys Panpour wasn't the only thing I nominated c:
Anyways, suppose I might as well put forward some more theory votes while I'm here, discussion is always amazing~
Panpour (since y'all mentioned it): Low, better typing and Scald give it a LITTLE edge over the other 2 monkeys, but at the same time make it dead weight against Elesa, and it's still a bitch to find and imo not really worth the effort. Slightly better, but much better options to be using here imo.
Roggenrola for Low. It comes a lot later than in B/W1 and at that point imo isn't really worth the effort, it's a lot more "meh" in B/W2, and you'd think it'd be able to train against Burghs gym, but the abundance of Sewaddle line mons make it VERY difficult to do so. Being slow as molasses and having an AWFUL offensive movepool (Earthquake's postgame now so it runs on mono-Rock essentially unless you tutor it Iron Head and Superpower, the former gives you pretty much zero coverage and the latter isn't until Yamaji, oh and did I mention you need to have Gigalith to even be able to LEARN THESE MOVES) also hurts it considerably. I'd say Low for Gigalith access, Bottom for Boldore, as Boldore can't even learn Iron Head and Superpower ._.
Darumaka for Top. Literally nothing has changed for it except for it being marginally worse off with regards to gyms (Water instead of Ice), it's still an absolute beast and perhaps one of the most broken mons for an ingame run. The only actual addition it got was Zen Headbutt, which it really doesn't need but if Poison and Fighting types are giving you problems... Yeah, it's fucking Darumaka.
Heracross for High/Top. Base 125 attack by the 4th Gym and Close Combat at level 34. Not quite as broken as Darumaka but it's still STUPIDLY good in theory. You can Heart Scale to give it Night Slash and tutor it Bug Bite to give it Bug STAB until it gets Megahorn (Level 46, not that bad), and you're pretty much set for the whole game, including the Elite 4. If you really wanna make it broke, you could give it Rock Slide or Dig for a 4th coverage move, but this thing seems like the new go-to for a Fighting type. I'm on the fence as to whether to put it as Top, as having to contend with Bug Bite until the late 40s is a little bad, but it gets ridiculously early Close Combat at the same time, so at the VERY least it's High, I'd make a case for Top.
Pinsir for Mid. Obviously not quite as broke as Heracross due to slightly worse moves and the lack of Fighting STAB, but still a very capable 'mon for ingame. It gets powerful Fighting moves in Brick Break and Submission early on, and similarly to Heracross, you can tutor it Bug Bite to give it STAB. The big difference being that unlike Heracross you don't have to contend with it for long as you gain the far superior X-Scissor at Level 29. Unlike Heracross, Pinsir doesn't have QUITE as much noticeable power and it's a fair bit slow and specially frail, but it has good physical Defense and damn is it a strong ass mofo nonetheless. Also does well against Nimbasa thanks to Dig (although watch out for Emolga if you don't have Rock Tomb) and Driftveil due to a lot of Dark types, but doesn't really make much Gym contribution elsewhere. Beats 2/4 of the E4 solely due to typing too, so it ain't all bad for this badass Pokemon.
Skorupi for Low. This guy seems quite interesting at first glance, but a really late evolution, mediocre stats, overreliance on set-up (on a move which itself is unreliable, Acupressure, and you need a Heart Scale to get that back) and how it doesn't really do anything for your team to help against trainers or Gym Leaders make it quite a waste sadly. A real shame, Drapion's a really badass Pokemon too.
EDIT: Oh, and I request the following things go into Postgame, so people don't try and tier them, damn Unova Dex misleading us c:
Munna
Eevee (Leafeon and Glaceon)
Tirtouga
Archen (thank god)
Heatmor
Durant
Cryogonal
Tympole
Stunfisk
Vigoroth
Corphish
Jigglypuff
Lickitung
Yanma
Tropius
Carnivine
Croagunk
Pupitar
Anyways, suppose I might as well put forward some more theory votes while I'm here, discussion is always amazing~
Panpour (since y'all mentioned it): Low, better typing and Scald give it a LITTLE edge over the other 2 monkeys, but at the same time make it dead weight against Elesa, and it's still a bitch to find and imo not really worth the effort. Slightly better, but much better options to be using here imo.
Roggenrola for Low. It comes a lot later than in B/W1 and at that point imo isn't really worth the effort, it's a lot more "meh" in B/W2, and you'd think it'd be able to train against Burghs gym, but the abundance of Sewaddle line mons make it VERY difficult to do so. Being slow as molasses and having an AWFUL offensive movepool (Earthquake's postgame now so it runs on mono-Rock essentially unless you tutor it Iron Head and Superpower, the former gives you pretty much zero coverage and the latter isn't until Yamaji, oh and did I mention you need to have Gigalith to even be able to LEARN THESE MOVES) also hurts it considerably. I'd say Low for Gigalith access, Bottom for Boldore, as Boldore can't even learn Iron Head and Superpower ._.
Darumaka for Top. Literally nothing has changed for it except for it being marginally worse off with regards to gyms (Water instead of Ice), it's still an absolute beast and perhaps one of the most broken mons for an ingame run. The only actual addition it got was Zen Headbutt, which it really doesn't need but if Poison and Fighting types are giving you problems... Yeah, it's fucking Darumaka.
Heracross for High/Top. Base 125 attack by the 4th Gym and Close Combat at level 34. Not quite as broken as Darumaka but it's still STUPIDLY good in theory. You can Heart Scale to give it Night Slash and tutor it Bug Bite to give it Bug STAB until it gets Megahorn (Level 46, not that bad), and you're pretty much set for the whole game, including the Elite 4. If you really wanna make it broke, you could give it Rock Slide or Dig for a 4th coverage move, but this thing seems like the new go-to for a Fighting type. I'm on the fence as to whether to put it as Top, as having to contend with Bug Bite until the late 40s is a little bad, but it gets ridiculously early Close Combat at the same time, so at the VERY least it's High, I'd make a case for Top.
Pinsir for Mid. Obviously not quite as broke as Heracross due to slightly worse moves and the lack of Fighting STAB, but still a very capable 'mon for ingame. It gets powerful Fighting moves in Brick Break and Submission early on, and similarly to Heracross, you can tutor it Bug Bite to give it STAB. The big difference being that unlike Heracross you don't have to contend with it for long as you gain the far superior X-Scissor at Level 29. Unlike Heracross, Pinsir doesn't have QUITE as much noticeable power and it's a fair bit slow and specially frail, but it has good physical Defense and damn is it a strong ass mofo nonetheless. Also does well against Nimbasa thanks to Dig (although watch out for Emolga if you don't have Rock Tomb) and Driftveil due to a lot of Dark types, but doesn't really make much Gym contribution elsewhere. Beats 2/4 of the E4 solely due to typing too, so it ain't all bad for this badass Pokemon.
Skorupi for Low. This guy seems quite interesting at first glance, but a really late evolution, mediocre stats, overreliance on set-up (on a move which itself is unreliable, Acupressure, and you need a Heart Scale to get that back) and how it doesn't really do anything for your team to help against trainers or Gym Leaders make it quite a waste sadly. A real shame, Drapion's a really badass Pokemon too.
EDIT: Oh, and I request the following things go into Postgame, so people don't try and tier them, damn Unova Dex misleading us c:
Munna
Eevee (Leafeon and Glaceon)
Tirtouga
Archen (thank god)
Heatmor
Durant
Cryogonal
Tympole
Stunfisk
Vigoroth
Corphish
Jigglypuff
Lickitung
Yanma
Tropius
Carnivine
Croagunk
Pupitar
- Status