BW2 In-Game Tier List Discussion [Updated 7/24]

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crashandcortex said:
Roggenrola for Low. It comes a lot later than in B/W1 and at that point imo isn't really worth the effort, it's a lot more "meh" in B/W2, and you'd think it'd be able to train against Burghs gym, but the abundance of Sewaddle line mons make it VERY difficult to do so. Being slow as molasses and having an AWFUL offensive movepool (Earthquake's postgame now so it runs on mono-Rock essentially unless you tutor it Iron Head and Superpower, the former gives you pretty much zero coverage and the latter isn't until Yamaji, oh and did I mention you need to have Gigalith to even be able to LEARN THESE MOVES) also hurts it considerably. I'd say Low for Gigalith access, Bottom for Boldore, as Boldore can't even learn Iron Head and Superpower ._.
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A lot later? It comes roughly one gym later. Actually, since the first and second gyms in BW2 are so close together, I'd almost argue that it comes at roughly the same point.

Roggenrola also has the Dig TM as an option, which you conveniently remembered for Heracross and Pinsir, yet for some reason left out here.
 
crashandcortex, I don't mean to sound like an ass, but Pinsir & Heracross share the exact same speed and attack. Your post made it seem like Pinisr had lower stats.

Although you might mean that Pinsir has less notibale attack due to level up moves and STAB (specifically Close Combat).
I wholeheartedly believe that X-Scissor > Megahorn in-game. I've taught Megahorn to Samurott and Sawsbuck and it misses in-game way more often than you'd like to think.
 
Pinsir has only one STAB as opposed to two while still having the same number of weaknesses, Superpower even not counting stab is inferior to Close Combat, and I'm sorry but just because you're unlucky with Megahorn doesn't make it worse than X-Scissor. Less reliable, yeah, but 40 BP is pretty damn noticeable when you miss an OHKO on some bulky Musharna or something. Heracross also has a better level up movepool, with the exception of Swords Dance, which Heracross doesn't really need considering he has two 120 BP stabs and (possibly) Guts.
 
IOS said:
A lot later? It comes roughly one gym later. Actually, since the first and second gyms in BW2 are so close together, I'd almost argue that it comes at roughly the same point.

Roggenrola also has the Dig TM as an option, which you conveniently remembered for Heracross and Pinsir, yet for some reason left out here.
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Roggenrola line cannot learn Dig. I thought I made a REALLY dumb error when you mentioned it (I was pretty tired when I posted), but I checked Serebii and Bulbapedia, and the only Ground type moves it gets by TM are Earthquake (Postgame) and Bulldoze (which sucks but I guess gives it pseudo QuakeEdge? Better than mono-Rock at least) Honestly I'd still consider it Low seeing its terrible Speed, rather poor gym matchups (It'd solo Burgh and Skyla if it weren't for the Water and Grass types you encounter X.X) and absolutely atrocious movepool, though I may lean towards Lower Mid (Gigalith) if the split's ever made. Boldore on its own however is full on Gutter Trash, no matter how you put it.

As for me making out Pinsir to be inferior, it's mainly due to the lack of Fighting STAB it has, and it really does show, since it hits quite a bit weaker than Heracross does with its Fighting attacks. As for me exaggerating its speed, that was a mistake on my half, I didn't actually look at its base Speed and always assumed it had base 70 or 75 when it's actually the same as Heracross' (85). I still think Pinsir's really good and stuff, but it doesn't break High simply because Heracross exists, that and it's pretty rare too.
 
What about the mareep line ? I know he has bad speed but he also has passable defenses, evolves fairly early at 15 and again at 30. Magnemite totally out classes him, but later on at 35 he does gain access to power gem (if you wait to evolve 29 for mareep, 34 for flaaffy), with 70 BP. If you can get your hands on a heart scale he can gain fire punch although his attack is lacking it is another option.
 
Chill, I just wanted to point out that they both share the same speed in case someone wanted to use one over the other, I'm not saying that crashandcortex is mistaken in his tiering.

Speaking about Megahorn specifically, I'd still teach my Heracross X-Scissor instead if it could learn it (which it can't). Personally, I'd rather deal a strong hit and let a team mate finish off the opponent than miss against a Psychic type and take a killer SE attack. I usually don't trust anything less tan 90 acc in-game XD


-EDIT:
Burgba, the tier list is pretty accurate in accordance to Mareep IMO. I've used it (I love that evo line), while it's not great, it's not terrible either. You're gonna be stuck with Electro Ball on a slow sheep for a long while but it's honestly not that bad. You either 2HKO with Electro Ball, or T-wave/Charge then Electro Ball
: |
It's coverage options are Signal Beam and Power Gem. Nothing really game-defining. If you like Ampharos more than Magnezone go ahead and use it. It won't make you rage-quit the game or anything :p
 
I've noticed something in BW that might be helpful in BW2:

In BW, right before each gym, you find a pokemon that has potential to completely destroy it, for example:

1-Trio: Respective monkey
2-Normal: Sawk/Throh/Timburr
3-Bug: Darumakka
4-Electric: Sandile
5-Ground: ...Deerling?
6-Flying: Joltik
7-Ice: Mienfoo
8-Dragon: Nothing really but I remember having a Beartic by the time I reached here

Then there's Durant right before the Pokemon League. It can own half of the E4 and handle most of Ghetsis (usually the hardest fight in the game, that Hydreigon! And steel Durant doesn't get Toxic'd by Cofagrigus)


But what about BW2?
Making a quick list like this might help in tiering some pokemon or maybe help in a nuzlock challenge. It might even spark up a discussion.
I'm not exactly sure HOW helpful this might be but I just didn't want it to go unnoticed.
 
1 - Cheren: Technically Riolu, although anything you have should be able to kill him anyway (and rofl lv15 force palm)
2 - Roxie: Magnemite
3 - Bug: Darumaka, Zubat
4 - Electric: Sandile, to an extent: Jolteon
5 - Ground: None really imo (BW1 should be Basculin, specifically the ingame trade one)
6 - Flying: Joltik
7 - Dragon: Again, none. I guess... Cobalion? lol at least it no longer requires a stupid detour
8 - Water: None as well, but it should be kind of expected that you have a Grass type by this point.

For the Pokemon League, there isn't any as well (Durant doesn't exist!) Regardless, it should still be manageable.
 
A few ideas that haven't been mentioned:

4-Sandshrew (Dig, and even has Rollout for Emolga)
5-Roselia (although it'd only be neutral vs. Excadrill) and I get the feeling that the trade Cottonee would have a field day leveling up in this gym; even if you haven't leveled it yet. Maybe even Ducklett would do well here?
6-Nosepass, Tynamo, Aron, the trade Gigalith
7-Cubchoo?
 
I just noticed that Beartic does well against the next two gyms it faces: Flying and Dragon. Great moveset too: Icicle Crash/Superpower/Bulk Up/Dig/Dive/Rock Slide/Shadow Claw are all available to it before the 7th gym. Its speed is on the low side, but maybe an interesting Pokemon to test out in the future.
 
IOS said:
I just noticed that Beartic does well against the next two gyms it faces: Flying and Dragon. Great moveset too: Icicle Crash/Superpower/Bulk Up/Dig/Dive/Rock Slide/Shadow Claw are all available to it before the 7th gym. Its speed is on the low side, but maybe an interesting Pokemon to test out in the future.
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Cubchoo's an interesting case. It's got low initial stats prior to evolving it into Beartic, but it's infinitely better than it's B/W1 counterpart as it can get Ice Punch and Superpower as soon as you get it, meaning it actually gets physical Ice STAB before Beartic. I have 2 large problems with Beartic however, namely its terrible Speed and how it doesn't help much outside from those 2 gyms. I'm actually at a bit of a loss of what to theory vote it as, though if anything I'll probably stick by Lower Mid, as it helps VS those gyms but seems to do little elsewhere (though beating the Plasma bats and crocodiles is pretty sweet I suppose).
 
Klink - steel is a nice defensive typing. Everything else sucks. The biggest troll is that he learns only special electric moves despite having higher attack :/ And Wild Charge comes at Victory Road. Coverage? Sure, here's Signal Beam from 70 base SpA. Bottom.

Koffing - obviously Top because Dogars song is the greatest thing ever since RSE champion music theme. Right? No? Aw. Poison typing plus Levitate is a great defensive combo giving him only one weakness. He also boasts nice physical bulk. Sadly he's slow, can't really take special hits well, poison STAB is about as useless as steel, and his level up moveset is horrible. He has average attacking stats and can actually run a very good coverage set, albeit he needs TMs desperately. Low.

Lapras - huge pain in the ass to catch, also comes late. But in my book he's the only water type who can hold a candle to Starmie in this game. Great bulk, capable of surviving super effective hits, powerful STABs, and a lot of good tutoring/TM options (lol Outrage). He's too slow to sweep most of the time but does a good job otherwise. Low-mid, but more mid than low.

Litwick - phenomenal special with mostly decent other stats too and strong STABs. Sadly ghost/fire coverage is not very good in this game, as he's only capable of easily beating plasma sage, Corless and Caitlin. However 145 SpA means that even his neutral hits pack a wallop. Mid.

Lunatone - average stats, six weaknesses and comes at a point where his stabs are useless for the most part. Bottom.

Metang - incredibly strong and durable but comes far too late. Also very annoying to catch. He's an incredible asset vs E4 though, just for that he deserves at least Mid.
 
Manveru123 said:
Litwick - phenomenal special with mostly decent other stats too and strong STABs. Sadly ghost/fire coverage is not very good in this game, as he's only capable of easily beating plasma sage, Corless and Caitlin. However 145 SpA means that even his neutral hits pack a wallop. Mid.
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Personally I think your not doing Litwick enough justice in just how much this thing can achieve and do. The fact that it can obtain Psychic and Energy Ball, two reasonably good moves to add coverage to the moveset fairly soon after you obtain it, allow it to tackle Plasma Grunts with relative impunity (save for Scraggy line to my best knowledge) and the Dusk Stone is obtained in the Stranger's House allowing an almost immediate transition from Litwick to Chandelure in most cases. It could tackle Marlon and Shauntal albeit with risk, but with the offensive stat it has it should blast through the majority of both of their teams. Regular trainers though are cannon fodder though. I'd seriously consider it just in the High tier concerning the running thus far I have had with it, the fact that it comes late game and does require some attention at the base stage being the main restirctions in my opinion. I will concede it's sort of on the Mid-High cutoff. Saying that though, I've had it some seven levels below stuff and it still manages to blow everything apart.
 
Manveru123 said:
I don't see a pokemon with FIVE weaknesses, lackluster bulk and average speed as a high material sorry.
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Sandile, Petilil and Sigilyph are in high tier and have five weaknesses.

60/90/90 defensive bases is actually pretty good. Using the three above Pokemon as examples, Krookodile has 95/70/70, Lilligant 70/75/75 and Sigilyph 72/80/80. Unless you're talking purely about the Litwick stage.

Average speed? I would call somewhere between 60 and 70 average. Not 80.

I mean I don't see Litwick as high tier either, but that's due to coming late and still having a babying period before it stops being a liability. All I'm asking for is some consistency.
 
You can't have consistency when every vote is subjective, don't you think? You can only be consistent with your own ratings really. For example I haven't rated any of the pokes you mentioned. They do however have clear advantages (except Sigilyph, what's that doing in High) over Chandelure. Krookodile is quite fast, which lets him utilize Moxie well, learns 120 BP moves by tutoring, and gets Earthquake by level. With above average power, Moxie and access to extremely strong moves he can easily do full sweeps without setting up. Petlil has Petal Dance + Own Tempo combo which is phenomenal, and it also gets Quiver Dance. And they're both available early.
 
Manveru123 said:
You can't have consistency when every vote is subjective, don't you think? You can only be consistent with your own ratings really. For example I haven't rated any of the pokes you mentioned. They do however have clear advantages (except Sigilyph, what's that doing in High) over Chandelure. Krookodile is quite fast, which lets him utilize Moxie well, learns 120 BP moves by tutoring, and gets Earthquake by level. With above average power, Moxie and access to extremely strong moves he can easily do full sweeps without setting up. Petlil has Petal Dance + Own Tempo combo which is phenomenal, and it also gets Quiver Dance. And they're both available early.
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I assume the aim of this tier list is to be as close as possible to objective. A subjective tier list is essentially useless. Perhaps the guidelines for tiering a Pokemon should be clarified in the OP.

I realize that those Pokemon in high tier have advantages that put them a tier ahead of Litwick. I just wasn't buying your reasoning.
 
Manveru123 said:
Ice Beam TM is in Giant Chasm.

I suppose there's Blizzard too.
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/fp

derrrrrrp

on the subject of litwick, like volcarona it gets access to a ridiculously powerful fire blast just before drayden, which can basically one shot almost everything (i think it may one-shot even scraggy lol)

the only thing holding litwick back is the stupid evolution level, but other than that it's pretty solid imo
 
The problem with spamming random trainers and plasma grunts with attacks like Fire Blast is that not only it has shaky accuracy, but also low PP, and for some reason we're in 5th gen and still can't buy Ethers :(
 
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