are you really arguing over a .4% difference...
:(god what the hell is the opposite of a luvdisc can we begin voting on most frustrating and bad thread of all time yet or what
you say "mindless counter" but all you mean is hard counter or check. seriously, a pokemon that doesn't have anything that can simply switch into it and either force it out or beat it, IS overpowered, because it doesn't have a "counter." your idea that a pokemon that has no counters isn't necessarily "overpowered" makes no sense, because a counter shouldn't need "skill" to switch in and force out a pokemon, which is what a counter exactly does. wrap doesn't counter mewtwo because no wrapper can simply switch into mewtwo and force it out on its own. tauros is the best ou pokemon and it has counters insofar as it has something that can switch directly into it and force it out or beat it straight up. so does chansey, so snorlax, so does everything. mewtwo does not. the best you can do is pp stall it or freeze it or get lucky against it. what you are talking about is not just wrappers beating mewtwo but a whole strategy working correctly. if you have skill AND luck you can beat mewtwo with this wrap + explosion strategy, but you may have to sacrifice one or more pokemon in the process. if you have to do all of that to even have a chance to beat mewtwo, it is overpowered. mewtwo has no checks or hard counters. it has no single pokemon that can come directly in and scare it off at least once or beat it. and the presence of wrap doesn't mean anything with paralysis is a counter to mewtwo given that mewtwo is less likely to stay in and get paralyzed, because it isn't the paralyzer mewtwo is worried about; mewtwo can take paralysis and still KO the paralyzer. it is how paralysis will limit its ability to deal with OTHER pokemon that mewtwo is worried about. but mewtwo can stay in and take paralysis and still KO one or more pokemon, and all you have accomplished in paralyzing mewtwo is you've made it slightly more manageable but still incredibly hard to switch into. mewtwo is broken and neither wrap as a complex multi-part strategy nor any individual wrapper is a RELIABLE COUNTER to it. which you even admit when you say "I also never said wrap outright beats M2, I just said it makes it more manageable." if nothing can outright beat it, it doesn't have a counter. referring to that type of counter as "mindless" is superfluous because that is simply how countering works, whether you think it is mindless or not, and the pervasiveness of that type of countering in the game doesn't mean there is no strategy or staleness in the game or anything like that, because the game has always been about finding weaknesses and breaking through hard counters before your opponent. and having at least one of that type of counter is requisite for something to be allowed in OU. your current idea of what "broken" entails is really not something anyone is going to agree with. you're making a distinction between something being beaten by a counter and something being beaten with "skill" that doesn't need to be made. it isn't like since something has a hard counter it takes no skill to beat it, or because something requires skill to beat it has no hard counters. these aren't mutually exclusive notions.Mr E.- Skill beats wrap. Wrap only 'beats' M2 on occasion if it just sits there just hoping for a miss. If you think something is OP because you can't beat without having a mindless counter then we have very different opinions on what being OP is.
I also never said wrap outright beats M2, I just said it makes it more manageable.
Tauros has no counters, although Starmie/Slowbro/Zapdos can switch into it and Thunder Wave it. On the other hand, it can't counter many things itself either.you say "mindless counter" but all you mean is hard counter or check. seriously, a pokemon that doesn't have anything that can simply switch into it and either force it out or beat it, IS overpowered, because it doesn't have a "counter."
And it ignores stuff that can be played around without having a definite "counter". I mean, Reflect Alakazam has no OU counter apart from Slowbro (and maybe Light Screen Chansey), but Slowbro's still not a staple because you can play around Alakazam without using it.I never was a fan of the "it doesn't have a counter" justification for broken-ness because it places too much emphasis on face-smashing offense as being the defining factor of a broken mon. Granted, it's probably a good way to look at it for newer gens given the speed at which those games are played, but for older, slower gens that line of reasoning is questionable. It can lead to glass cannons being considered suspect-worthy and questionable defensive mons being ignored.
snorlax and tauros can both be switched in on by lapras, cloyster, slowbro, exeggutor, and a few other things and get beaten one on one. tauros CAN beat its counters with luck but that is often the case with pokemon and their counters; it just so happens that in rby luck has a larger impact especially where tauros is concerned because of its high crit rate and para rate. but "on average" those pokemon make good counters for tauros. the fact that snorlax can use multiple sets doesnt mean anything because all of its sets have something that can come in and beat it or force it out (or in other words, counter the sets). mewtwo is not beaten by wrap because no wrapper can switch in on it. it is also clearly not "beaten" by para and you probably have to sack something to set up para and get in anything in an attempt to take advantage of its decreased speed. dragonite is an odd case and is exactly why wrap is so controversial, but the fact of the matter is, dragonite is also relying on "luck" to beat its counters because it is unlikely that dragonite is going to wear down and beat anything on its own without missing unless its had some help wearing its counters down by supporting team mates earlier in the game. hence, the water types make good switch ins for it and it isn't easy to set up agility for free anyway. that there ARE good switchins for those pokemon is important. mewtwo has a few decent switchins, but something like slowbro or chansey or starmie is probably your best bet. they can come in and try to pp stall it or freeze it or in slowbro's case you can get lucky with crits. on the other hand, you can try some convoluted wrap strategy that will often cost you one or two pokemon before you can put yourself in a position to force it out. what i'm really saying here is that if mewtwo DOES have a counter, "wrap" isn't the best place to look. but mewtwo doesn't really have good counters which is why it is THE goddamn uber.Tauros has no counters, although Starmie/Slowbro/Zapdos can switch into it and Thunder Wave it. On the other hand, it can't counter many things itself either.
Dragonite has no sure counters, because anything switching into it is switching in as it uses Agility and is thus vulnerable to Wrap (and Gengar risks 4HKO from Blizzard before it can 4HKO with Night Shade).
Snorlax has no sure counters, because it's got a ton of viable sets and a crapload of bulk. Any non-Amnesia Snorlax is forced to Selfdestruct by Withdraw Slowbro, but Amnesialax can boost alongside it and either try to freeze it with Ice Beam or directly kill it with Thunderbolt. Amnesialax will always have issues getting past something, and Alakazam's crits make it cry, but honestly getting better than a 1-for-1 trade is pretty hard.
None of these are anywhere near as powerful as Mewtwo.
Cloyster can't 2HKO Tauros, while Lapras only does with max damage rolls, and it 4HKOs and outspeeds them. So no, they don't counter it. Cloyster counters physical Snorlax with Clamp if and only if it's not paraslammed before it gets Clamp off (35%), and Lapras is 3HKOed by Snorlax more often than not even discounting the possibility of paraslams.snorlax and tauros can both be switched in on by lapras, cloyster, slowbro, exeggutor, and a few other things and get beaten one on one.
Because you can totally tell by looking at the words "magic9mushroom sent out Snorlax" what moves it has? The correct "counters" for some sets (e.g. Rest Rhydon for Body Slam Tanklax) are complete suicide against others (in the case above, Blizzard Amnesialax would OHKO and Fishlax would usually OHKO after a Body Slam).the fact that snorlax can use multiple sets doesnt mean anything because all of its sets have something that can come in and beat it or force it out (or in other words, counter the sets).
Mostly correct. Basically everything in RBY OU can potentially paralyse it (except Cloyster, and Tauros isn't switching into Cloyster) and most things with STAB attacks will 3HKO it. Its existence does make Rest a whole lot less attractive, but in all honesty most teams hold up pretty well to Tauros.Isn't the idea of a good OU team to not counter Tauros but instead have all the Pokemon check it if it tries to attack them? That way Tauros doesn't weaken off your team for a sweep and instead at the worst you cripple it and lose a Pokemon, and a crippled Tauros is basically dead. Even Chansey can paralyze it or threaten with Counter. The only Pokemon that might have to switch are a weakened Golem or Rhydon, as they can be finished off with Blizzard, and at that point, the predicted attack... becomes rather predictable.
idk that's just my experience, I am kind of new at RBY
Lax's 4HKO is guaranteed, though, so it can just keep going until a paraslam-fullpara or crit after which Cloyster dies.Magic- A healthy cloyster switches into lax pretty comfortably. If it gets paralysed it can comfortably rest loop lax. It can technically rest loop tauros too, but tauros is likely to crit through it.
Dragonite is 'countered' by a specific strategy rather than a specific pokemon, so it's manageable.
I just explained that this is not the case... it has a lot of good switch ins, and it has to rely on not missing with wrap to beat them. and there's also gengar, just to top it all off. switching back and forth between multiple checks isn't really "strategy" and it's certainly not a "strategy" that will almost guarantee that you have to sack something before you beat dragonite, like this "use para and use or bluff explosion and use wrap to beat mewtwo" strategy will.
Also Shrapn3l, by your logic Zapdos would be Uber against teams that don't run rocks. Nothing other than rocks really force it out, and it has a chance to beat anything 1v1. So according to you, it'd be Uber without rocks, but that's rubbish because I constantly beat Zapdoses with my non-rock team. Apart from rocks, Zapdos doesn't have a definitive counter, but can be played around and beaten with skill.
this is not true. zapdos can't beat electric types easily either, or reflect zam, or chansey, or amnesialax, and has difficulty getting in with strong blizzards and psychics and paraslams flying around. and regardless, rock types are very useful and common in OU and they can switch directly into zapdos. again, wrappers cannot get in on mewtwo directly, and they need para support to threaten it at all. this is not true of zapdos or any other ou pokemon, all of which have checks or counters that can switch directly into them and threaten them immediately. mewtwo is also not particularly afraid of any attack. it is much more threatening and durable than zapdos, and even tauros and snorlax as you have agreed. you need skill to beat any pokemon regardless of whether or not you have a hard counter for it on your team. frivolous comparison and pretty null point.
Also, stop assuming all I'm going to do is wrap-boom and be as predictable as someone who has never played the game before. The point is you pressure the M2, and it has to decide whether it wants to stay in or not. Saying stuff like 'well if it switches out when you boom you just lost a pokemon for nothing' is pointless theorycraft because that's player dependent.
you started it, and that's what you explained you'd do. also if mewtwo stays in and smashes you with +2 psychic because you felt like bluffing with an explosion that wouldn't kill mewtwo anyway then what have you accomplished? just like you're capable of playing "unpredictably" so is your opponent.
The reality is, on pure mechanics, M2 has a good chance to lose to a wrap team if it's just going to sit there and rely on its uberness to try and win.
mewtwo doesn't have to start the game off and 6-0 a team to be an uber. but there's a good chance that it'll take out half of your team if it just sits there and relies on its uberness and you try to para it and wrap it or explode until it dies.
about "countering" the normal types: okay, fine. i admit that i don't have these matchups and damage exchanges memorized, but forgive me, they have never in my pkmn career really struck me as that important. the point is, although they don't all easily beat tauros and lax one on one, they always switch into them without thought if in good condition/full health in essentially every OU battle. it happens ALL THE TIME. and pretty much always, unless there is some luck involved, tauros and standard lax will switch out, because nobody wants to waste their tauros or lax on a one on one. these pokemon make GOOD checks, because even if they dont beat tauros and lax they are going to severely neuter them, and tauros and lax can't just easily recover off the damage from the exchange and then immediately roll over something else like it never happened like mewtwo can. they run out of steam, mewtwo doesn't really. perhaps with para support a wrapper could severely neuter mewtwo, but you need that para support and you need to not miss and you still somehow need to switch the wrapper in. they can't switch in and force it out. very little can. that's all there is to it.Cloyster can't 2HKO Tauros, while Lapras only does with max damage rolls, and it 4HKOs and outspeeds them. So no, they don't counter it. Cloyster counters physical Snorlax with Clamp if and only if it's not paraslammed before it gets Clamp off (35%), and Lapras is 3HKOed by Snorlax more often than not even discounting the possibility of paraslams.
Exeggutor 3HKOs Tauros and 4HKOs Snorlax while they both 3HKO it, so no, it doesn't counter them either.
this doesn't really matter that much and i will explain why later.
Slowbro beats Tauros straight up with little difficulty, but switching into it is almost a coin-flip. Slowbro has to switch in, use Thunder Wave/Reflect/Withdraw, and then successfully Rest in order to defeat Tauros (due to Tauros's guaranteed 4HKO on unboosted Slowbro allowing it to fish for a crit otherwise), and even then it's not guaranteed. Also, Tauros can use Thunderbolt, which will break Slowbro's Rest with a 3HKO unless it somehow managed to set up Amnesia before Resting.
Slowbro cannot switch into all Laxen and win - it beats physical Lax but not Amnesialax.
Because you can totally tell by looking at the words "magic9mushroom sent out Snorlax" what moves it has? The correct "counters" for some sets (e.g. Rest Rhydon for Body Slam Tanklax) are complete suicide against others (in the case above, Blizzard Amnesialax would OHKO and Fishlax would usually OHKO after a Body Slam).
you don't have to know what set it has. it isn't going to kill anything before you find out what set it has unless you for instance leave rhydon in to get surfed or something. meanwhile, mewtwo has one set and smashes almost every pokemon you throw at it.
(Besides, the most common Lax set - Slam/Beam/Quake/SD - has only two OU counters, and they're both hilariously shaky because Cloyster has to not get paraslammed and Snorlax will just blow up Slowbro.)
What Mewtwo has that Tauros/Snorlax/Dragonite all don't is the combination of brute power (Amnesia + STAB Psychic + 154 base Special + 130 base Speed = ZOMG), durability (no weaknesses, physical bulk approaching Snorlax's, special bulk second only to Chansey even before Amnesia, and of course Recover) and versatility (epic movepool by RBY standards, and it switches into any unboosted special attacker for free while not being at all vulnerable to a double-switch). Compared to Mewtwo, Snorlax is lacking in the power department, Tauros is somewhat lacking in both the power and durability departments, and Dragonite is extremely lacking in durability and somewhat limited in versatility (because it 100% needs AgiliWrap, and Wrap is a lock-in move).
correct, this is what i just said in my last post. it is too threatening and too durable, and nothing in OU has comparable capabilities in either of those categories, never mind in both
What you said was that "not having a counter" is a demonstration of something being OP. Tauros/Snorlax/Dragonite have "no counters", but are not OP. Mewtwo has "no counters", and is very OP. It's not "having no counters" that breaks Mewtwo, it's "defeating almost everything with trivial ease, walling and setting up on every single specialist not named Slowbro or Mewtwo, not being vulnerable to attrition, AND having no counters" that breaks it and makes it Uber.snip
And neither have you. I would suggest that you put your money where your mouth is, build a RBY Ubers team with Wrappers, and demonstrate this alleged balance of Mewtwo.Saying that you've played Ubers for years is pointless here because I know people didn't play with wrap all that time. It's a different meta.