Metagame Camomons

Been playing this a lot in Camomons and ohhhhhh boy is it better than I expected~

Banette-Mega @ Banettite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Destiny Bond
- Return
- Taunt / Will-o-Wisp / Knock Off
- Shadow Sneak / Knock Off

This set is hellishly infuriating to deal with, able to pick off weakened opponents, break stall, disrupt momentum, and dispatch of problem threats all in one devious set. Destiny Bond alongside Prankster is the main draw of the set, allowing you to freely trade with another potential roadblock and reset all momentum in your favor. Return being used as its secondary STAB option offers many benefits for Mega Banette. It's the strongest reliable offensive option for use, grants fantastic neutral STAB coverage, and allows Banette the option to deal crazy STAB damage instead of solely playing a utility role. Furthermore, the Ghost/Normal typing is a perfect typing for a Prankster user, invalidating most priority options such as Extreme Speed, Fake Out, Shadow Sneak, Quick Attack, and Mach Punch as options to counterplay against it, as well as offering a brutal punishment against Dark types trying to impede on Prankster's shenanigans. The last two slots are primarily for utility. Taunt shuts down setup or stall tactics while you crash into them for major damage in Return, while also forcing opponents to blindly run into Destiny Bond next turn. However, Will-o-Wisp drastically cripples physical sweepers to near-uselessness without resorting to Destiny Bond. Shadow Sneak is the preferred Ghost STAB for Banette, allowing it to pick off limping foes with its massive Attack stat and optimizing its coverage. However, Knock Off can be used instead to eliminate the opponents items that they may rely on. Shadow Claw can be opted for either of the last two slots to give Banette another strong STAB move that can hit foes which Return cannot by dealing more damage to opponents weak to Ghost and neutral at worst to Normal, but it is generally preferred to have Shadow Sneak and a utility option rather than another power move that is typically unnecessary. The EVs maximize the damage that Mega Banette will deal and offers enough Speed to outpace Neutral Base 70s like Volcanion and smack them before they can respond, with the rest put into HP to potentially survive what could initially be OHKOs. In all honesty, the EVs are fairly interchangeable just so long as it's at least Adamant with considerable Attack investment.

Just to give an idea of how strong STAB Return can be:
252+ Atk Banette-Mega (Ghost/Normal) Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 153-180 (50.3 - 59.2%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Banette-Mega (Ghost/Normal) Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 289-342 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Banette-Mega (Ghost/Normal) Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 186-220 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Banette-Mega (Ghost/Normal) Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 139-165 (31.3 - 37.1%) -- 81.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Banette-Mega (Ghost/Normal) Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran (Fire/Grass) : 208-246 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Banette-Mega (Ghost/Normal) Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mew: 219-258 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Seriously, I know this is beatable and isn't the most meta thing available considering it uses a Mega slot, but it's good. Like, really good. If I had to nominate, I'd say this thing is B- at least and B or B+ at the very most.
 

Jrdn

Journey before destination
is a Pre-Contributor
Why do you say zygard is not broken and why do you say dragonite is?
The thing about Camomons, is no pokemon is easily walled through typing alone. For example: A fun set: Fairy/Ground Mega Diancie, is walled by the ever so common Water/Poison Mega-Latias. However change the Fairy typing to Psychic typing and suddenly Diancie has a Super Effective.

This kind of relationship is common in Camomons, but the other side of the relationship, is there are still Pokemon that wall both Psychic/Ground and Fairy/Ground Diancie (and are viable in the metagame, which is very important). Steel/Flying types, or Levitating Steels are perfect answers to this pokemon, and that's what keeps it balanced.

Zygarde is in this kind of category. It has the common set that people mostly prep for, which is Normal/Ground, with CB or Dragon Dance, and then there's the more niche sets, like Dark type with Crunch to take advantage of people using ghost types to handle Espeeds, etc. Even with these changes, common intimidate mons always soften up Zygarde and make it manageable. The bulkiest phys def mons, like Phys Def Tangrowth or Slowbro, depending on typings, should handle basically all forms of Zygarde at the moment, unless someone makes a very unorthodox set. The 100 Base Attack stat also makes Zygarde a lot more manageable compared to...

Dragonite, the Camo behemoth. over 1/3 stronger than Zygarde, which makes it that much more important to prep for the common sets. The common sets that could absolutely decimates teams that don't have the right Phys Def mons are: Normal/Fire (CB or Dragon Dance with Weakness Policy), Normal/Water (CB), Normal/Ground (CB or DD). There aren't very many Pokemon in Camo that can handle these 3 sets at the moment, and easily the best mon for the job is Water/Grass Mega Slowbro, which is a great pokemon. The issue with Dragonite is, what happens if someone switches it up? Who needs espeed when everyone preps for espeed? Steel/Flying Dragonite with DD and Z-Fly absolutely tears through dedicated walls like that Slowbro, and with it's amazing Stats, typing, and Multiscale, it sets up on a lot of other stuff as well. Shit, I just thought of a set that I guarantee would be good. Dragon/Fire typing with Fire punch, Outrage, DD, Roost, and Dragnoium. This set, which again, I just thought up, is neutral to scalds, but can't be burned, DDs up on Heatran, which on paper walls both stabs, and basically most phys def mons at the moment, and blasts them all away. You see the issue? New sets all the time that have meta-defining implications is something completely unique to Dragonite. If everyone starts adapting to these sets, another one will come along, and so on.

Zyg can come back, Dnite has to go.
 
While on the topic, might as well chime in. Just a heads up, this is mainly discussing the DDance + Espeed sweep sets as I admittedly have no experience with other sets it may very well run.


Although I have no strong feelings towards or against it, I get why DNite should be banned. It's freakishly resilient, crazy strong, and has a very easy time setting up and sweeping teams even during early game. After setting up one or two Dragon Dances, it will freely steamroll teams with its massive strength. This may be standard, but unlike other sweepers and wallbreakers that exist, Dragonite is exceptionally difficult to fight back against. Extreme Speed is a fantastic priority move that invalidates most faster or other priority-driven checks that try to halt the sweep. Furthermore, its acceptable bulk alongside Multiscale, which can be continuously reset with Roost, makes revenge killing a fully set up Dragonite an unforgiving task because it will almost certainly survive being OHKOed by anything while at full health, even without investment. Having used it myself, I have no questions in why it would be banned and completely understand its decision to go.

Of course, Dragonite has its faults too. It is perfectly possible to stop DNite's sweep with the right type combination as hard as it may seem (Steel/Flying for Ground/Normal, Rock for Fire/Normal, Water/Steel for Water/Normal, etc). Multiscale is incredibly annoying, but once it's broken via residual damage or hazards, it's possible to kill Dragonite with revenge killing as it can't maintain max Hp forever. Finally, DNite is very easy to pull a sweep off, but it isn't an auto-win button; you still need to find a good opening to set up Dragon Dance and to be sure that there's absolutely nothing that can stop your momentum.

Now, I'm not saying Dragonite is fair and balanced by any means. All I am saying is it's not so broken that very few if not nothing can stop its rampage. But with all being said, it is the face of the meta and can still shut down games on its own while being very difficult for most teams to fight against with its one-sided nature. Seeing Dragonite getting banned would make perfect sense to me even though I hold no bias towards it.


Zygarde, on the other hand, really shouldn't come back for two reasons:
  1. Thousand Arrows. Yeah, Dragonite is stronger, has Roost, and has a usable ability that bolsters it further, but Thousand Arrows itself is enough to warrant using Zygarde over DNite any day. The fact that Thousand Arrows makes Zygarde's STAB coverage nearly unresisted means it's arguably harder to deal with than Dragonite despite the power difference. Even with all of the advantages DNite has over it, Zygarde is much less fair to fend off against because while DNite can be stonewalled at some times with the right set of types and immunities (Steel/Flying, Ghost + Levitate, etc), Thousand Arrows' ability to bypass this immunity makes stopping the sweep even harder than before. Yeah you can prep for Zygarde, but while Dragonite is harder to physically take down, it's much harder to stop Zygarde from snowballing just because of one signature move.
  2. Implemented rules. Specifically unbanning Zygarde would make it the ONLY Ubers Pokemon that gets special treatment and allowed in the OU-based tier when others aren't. Adding back Zygarde would make sense if this were like AAA and other Ubers were brought down due to the meta's power creep, but this isn't the case, so making an exception would go against the main ruleset of the meta. Making a singular exception to the rules is unfair and should not be done unless there is a very good reason to do so, and there really isn't at the moment.

tl;dr: I don't care what happens to Dragonite and won't argue against its ban, but there is no real reason to manually add back Zygarde and I will take this to my grave if I have to.
 

Jrdn

Journey before destination
is a Pre-Contributor
While on the topic, might as well chime in. Just a heads up, this is mainly discussing the DDance + Espeed sweep sets as I admittedly have no experience with other sets it may very well run.


Although I have no strong feelings towards or against it, I get why DNite should be banned. It's freakishly resilient, crazy strong, and has a very easy time setting up and sweeping teams even during early game. After setting up one or two Dragon Dances, it will freely steamroll teams with its massive strength. This may be standard, but unlike other sweepers and wallbreakers that exist, Dragonite is exceptionally difficult to fight back against. Extreme Speed is a fantastic priority move that invalidates most faster or other priority-driven checks that try to halt the sweep. Furthermore, its acceptable bulk alongside Multiscale, which can be continuously reset with Roost, makes revenge killing a fully set up Dragonite an unforgiving task because it will almost certainly survive being OHKOed by anything while at full health, even without investment. Having used it myself, I have no questions in why it would be banned and completely understand its decision to go.

Of course, Dragonite has its faults too. It is perfectly possible to stop DNite's sweep with the right type combination as hard as it may seem (Steel/Flying for Ground/Normal, Rock for Fire/Normal, Water/Steel for Water/Normal, etc). Multiscale is incredibly annoying, but once it's broken via residual damage or hazards, it's possible to kill Dragonite with revenge killing as it can't maintain max Hp forever. Finally, DNite is very easy to pull a sweep off, but it isn't an auto-win button; you still need to find a good opening to set up Dragon Dance and to be sure that there's absolutely nothing that can stop your momentum.

Now, I'm not saying Dragonite is fair and balanced by any means. All I am saying is it's not so broken that very few if not nothing can stop its rampage. But with all being said, it is the face of the meta and can still shut down games on its own while being very difficult for most teams to fight against with its one-sided nature. Seeing Dragonite getting banned would make perfect sense to me even though I hold no bias towards it.


Zygarde, on the other hand, really shouldn't come back for two reasons:
  1. Thousand Arrows. Yeah, Dragonite is stronger, has Roost, and has a usable ability that bolsters it further, but Thousand Arrows itself is enough to warrant using Zygarde over DNite any day. The fact that Thousand Arrows makes Zygarde's STAB coverage nearly unresisted means it's arguably harder to deal with than Dragonite despite the power difference. Even with all of the advantages DNite has over it, Zygarde is much less fair to fend off against because while DNite can be stonewalled at some times with the right set of types and immunities (Steel/Flying, Ghost + Levitate, etc), Thousand Arrows' ability to bypass this immunity makes stopping the sweep even harder than before. Yeah you can prep for Zygarde, but while Dragonite is harder to physically take down, it's much harder to stop Zygarde from snowballing just because of one signature move.
  2. Implemented rules. Specifically unbanning Zygarde would make it the ONLY Ubers Pokemon that gets special treatment and allowed in the OU-based tier when others aren't. Adding back Zygarde would make sense if this were like AAA and other Ubers were brought down due to the meta's power creep, but this isn't the case, so making an exception would go against the main ruleset of the meta. Making a singular exception to the rules is unfair and should not be done unless there is a very good reason to do so, and there really isn't at the moment.
tl;dr: I don't care what happens to Dragonite and won't argue against its ban, but there is no real reason to manually add back Zygarde and I will take this to my grave if I have to.
I can probably make a long-winded argument about how Dragonite is easily the most broken mon in the tier. But I'll avoid it. I appreciate your second point, and I think it's definitely worth considering and something I hadn't given much thought to
 
I've already given my opinion on why Dragonite needs to be removed from this tier ASAP, but I thought I'd give my 2 cents on Zygarde.

I think it's unfair to say Thousand Arrows makes Zygarde broken, given that A) Camomons makes TArrows resists WIDELY accessible B) Zygarde's 100 Attack stat allows it to be tanked very well by unresisted Pokemon, such as Buzzwole, and C) Zygarde honestly doesn't have the best coverage, which makes prepping for it much more one dimensional than other Pokemon. Zygarde overall is a strong threat, but there's no quality about it to me that screams broken.
  1. Implemented rules. Specifically unbanning Zygarde would make it the ONLY Ubers Pokemon that gets special treatment and allowed in the OU-based tier when others aren't. Adding back Zygarde would make sense if this were like AAA and other Ubers were brought down due to the meta's power creep, but this isn't the case, so making an exception would go against the main ruleset of the meta. Making a singular exception to the rules is unfair and should not be done unless there is a very good reason to do so, and there really isn't at the moment.
As far as this idea of implemented rules, I wouldn't call it "special treatment", just because Zygarde is the only Ubers Pokemon that isn't blatantly broken in this tier. Just because it would be the only Uber unban for the tier doesn't mean it shouldn't be done-all OU-based OMs are at their own discretion on what they can ban/unban, so if there's only one Pokemon that should be unbanned that's perfectly fine.

jrdn pretty much covered everything that needs to be said logistics wise for Zygarde and I've already covered Dnite in an earlier post, but tldr;
Zygarde should be unbanned and Dragonite should be banned from Camo
 
I need to play camomons recently but i remember when i played it was dominated by those two pokemon and kyruem-b and such so its been a while
 
Kyurem-B is gone, and right now there's a decent push for at least a Dragonite suspect. Now is probably a great time to get back in.
 
I've already given my opinion on why Dragonite needs to be removed from this tier ASAP, but I thought I'd give my 2 cents on Zygarde.

I think it's unfair to say Thousand Arrows makes Zygarde broken, given that A) Camomons makes TArrows resists WIDELY accessible B) Zygarde's 100 Attack stat allows it to be tanked very well by unresisted Pokemon, such as Buzzwole, and C) Zygarde honestly doesn't have the best coverage, which makes prepping for it much more one dimensional than other Pokemon. Zygarde overall is a strong threat, but there's no quality about it to me that screams broken.

A) Ironically, you'd be right with Earthquake, Thousand Arrows is a total exception to this. Even if a mon resisted Thousand Arrows excluding the ignored Levitate or Flying immunity, it also has to fend off against Normal STAB too. That closes the availability of potential types to run for checking Zygarde significantly compared to other possible combinations. but there are only two type combinations in the game that resists both Thousand Arrows and Extreme Speed, those being Bug/Ghost and Grass/Ghost, one of which is rarely ever seen.

B) The main issue here is you can say the exact same defending argument with Dragonite, and we both know that DNite is a problem to be addressed. It may be weaker than DNite, but Zygarde can still continuously boost to break past walls like DNite does and the same problem would still arise. Yes sometimes it won't be able to just continuously boost to break through its opponent, but again, same could be said with Dragonite. The main problem is that Dragonite and Zygarde are incredibly similar in what they do, so a lot of parallels would be addressed that would link one to be better, worse, or the same as the other, and in this case Zygarde has enough to be as problematic as Dragonite who, despite its flaws, is still widely-agreed on to be broken in the tier. If Dragonite has no reason to stay despite a valid argument, neither should Zygarde for similar arguments.

C) Once again, Thousand Arrows completely shuts down the poor coverage argument because there are so few mons that can viably run the type combination that resists it and the rest take neutral damage at worst. In fact, if you REALLY wanted to be that guy, Zygarde could just opt to run Crunch as a 4th slot tech choice to make its coverage completely unresisted by anything. So no, coverage is not a main drawback with using Zygarde because Thousand Arrows itself negates most options to fight against it unlike Earthquake; if anything its coverage is better than DNite's.

None of this would be the case if Zygarde didn't have Thousand Arrows. Since it does have Thousand Arrows, it's enough to move it out of the depths of being a weaker Dragonite and something completely different in how to stop. The fact is it accomplishes the same as DNite at minimum just because of its signature move invalidating over half of what would be counters for DNite. This makes Zygarde arguably as problematic as DNite is, despite their other differences.

As far as this idea of implemented rules, I wouldn't call it "special treatment", just because Zygarde is the only Ubers Pokemon that isn't blatantly broken in this tier. Just because it would be the only Uber unban for the tier doesn't mean it shouldn't be done-all OU-based OMs are at their own discretion on what they can ban/unban, so if there's only one Pokemon that should be unbanned that's perfectly fine.

Here's the problem: By that logic, Shaymin-Sky and Pheromosa would be acceptable to come back as well, as they would be incredibly similar to how unbanning Zygarde would be fair to bring back. They all have great stats, abusable moves, and can adjust their typings to further improve their performance or keep their typing to remain as solid of a threat as they were originally. They're still banned because they would still remain a serious threat if allowed back into the tier regardlesss if they changed their typing or not and, unlike AAA, there isn't enough power creep in the Camomon meta to warrant their return. Zygarde falls under the same scenario, being really good if it came back unchanged and potentially broken if it came back unrestricted, which is enough of a reason to keep Skymin and Pheromosa locked away.

My point is, if one Pokemon is eligible for returning into OU, that means all of them are potentially eligible to return and the inverse would be applied as well. If Shaymin-Sky and Pheromosa can't return, despite being very similar to Zygarde's case, then Zygarde has no reason to come back; doing so would be a definitive exception to the rules because if others can't come back for the same reason, then why should Zygarde? If Dragonite is such a problem in the tier (and it is), why would Zygarde be less of a problem? If other mons were banned for a similar reason Zygarde was destroying the meta, what good is adding Zygarde back?

As far as I see, there is no reason to unban Zygarde because if others couldn't get away with what Dragonite and thus Zygarde also did, why should Zygarde deserve treatment that no other mons would get?
 
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Skymin and Pheromosa are both leagues better than Zygarde. Every other Uber that was once OU legal that is now banned is better. Comparisons of that nature are missing the point in the first place.

Over the last few months of this thread (I checked) no one has brought up Zygarde as anything but a very very good Pokemon. It's clearly a casualty of its standard ban and should be unbanned.
 
Exciting news! On that note, I want to speak on something I feel hasn't been touched on much in the Zyg discussion regarding it staying banned or becoming unbanned and the impact this actually has on the meta. I've played quite a few games after Zyg was removed and I actually think its absence has quite a negative impact on Camomons.

The biggest reason I say this is because of how oppressive Levitating Poison types have now become without a powerful Ground type to exploit their Poison typing and immediately threaten them out. There is no other Pokemon that can replace Zyg in this role besides Mold Breaker Grounds like Earthquake Mega Gyarados or Haxorus and such. Cresselia and Mega Latias were already incredibly threatening before Zyg was gone and now that we've lost one of the best countermeasures to avoid letting them set up all over you and just cleaning it's very difficult to pressure these mons or revenge them due to their incredible bulk, immunity to toxic, and resistances.

In the event that Zyg remains unbanned, I think we'll be seeing a lot more Mold Breaker Ground types so that there's some kind of countermeasure to these bulky Levitating Poisons but i'm not sure that even this will be enough at times considering Mega Gyarados isn't very fast prior to setup, is prone to getting worn down and Haxorus doesn't contribute as much to a team as Zyg could since it lacks E-Speed, Zyg's bulk and lacks some of Zyg's coverage options such as Crunch. If Zyg stays absent I think it will be hard to justify keeping Mega Latias and maybe even Cresselia around.

Speaking of keeping things around, can we please get Dragonite out asap? This Pokemon is disgusting and its incredible power, diversity, and devastating combination of ability and coverage makes it the most broken mon an OM like Camo could possibly hope for. No matter what kind of counterplay you try to pack for this thing there is always a set that just wins and that's a terrifying prospect. I would elaborate a bit on this but.. I feel like Jordan has already said enough. This thing really needs to go.
 
Thanks everyone who supported Camomons!!! We couldn't have freed Camo without you guys :')
Exciting news! On that note, I want to speak on something I feel hasn't been touched on much in the Zyg discussion regarding it staying banned or becoming unbanned and the impact this actually has on the meta. I've played quite a few games after Zyg was removed and I actually think its absence has quite a negative impact on Camomons.

The biggest reason I say this is because of how oppressive Levitating Poison types have now become without a powerful Ground type to exploit their Poison typing and immediately threaten them out. There is no other Pokemon that can replace Zyg in this role besides Mold Breaker Grounds like Earthquake Mega Gyarados or Haxorus and such. Cresselia and Mega Latias were already incredibly threatening before Zyg was gone and now that we've lost one of the best countermeasures to avoid letting them set up all over you and just cleaning it's very difficult to pressure these mons or revenge them due to their incredible bulk, immunity to toxic, and resistances.

In the event that Zyg remains unbanned, I think we'll be seeing a lot more Mold Breaker Ground types so that there's some kind of countermeasure to these bulky Levitating Poisons but i'm not sure that even this will be enough at times considering Mega Gyarados isn't very fast prior to setup, is prone to getting worn down and Haxorus doesn't contribute as much to a team as Zyg could since it lacks E-Speed, Zyg's bulk and lacks some of Zyg's coverage options such as Crunch. If Zyg stays absent I think it will be hard to justify keeping Mega Latias and maybe even Cresselia around.

Speaking of keeping things around, can we please get Dragonite out asap? This Pokemon is disgusting and its incredible power, diversity, and devastating combination of ability and coverage makes it the most broken mon an OM like Camo could possibly hope for. No matter what kind of counterplay you try to pack for this thing there is always a set that just wins and that's a terrifying prospect. I would elaborate a bit on this but.. I feel like Jordan has already said enough. This thing really needs to go.
While I don't agree with this as a reasoning to necessarily unban Zygarde (it should be unbanned because it isn't broken, not because it offensively checks somewhat oppresive threats), it is an accurate depiction of the metagame since Zygarde's ban. Cresselia while already annoying pre-Zygarde ban, is incredibly difficult to kill for most teams, and Mega Latias is still standing strong. With that, I was in the process of making a VR nomination when you posted this so,

Gyarados-Mega: B+ to A-/possibly A
Gyarados-Mega has stood out as the best Mold Breaker ground in this meta, with its increased bulk over Haxorus giving it more sweeping opportunities to sweep. It does cost your Mega slot, but the opportunity cost is far less than what you get from this strong breaker. And with Levitate Steels and Poisons continuing to rise, Gyarados-Mega's niche is more important than ever.

Don't really have any other VR noms (may edit with one I'm on the fence about right now), but again I'm really excited that Camomons has a ladder again! Let's keep this momentum going and make our way in to OMPL ;))
 
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I'm glad to see this back on the ladder! I got into Camomons last year and fell in love with it immediately. Its nice how a variety of play-styles are viable and the creativity in choosing your type is almost endless. I'd like to see this meta keep growing and also learn more about it too.

That being said, I'd like to nominate Zeraora to rise from B to at least B+. I posted this set last year and still think that its an amazing stallbreaking set.
Zeraora @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Close Combat
- Taunt
- Knock Off
I've played two games with it today and am already being reminded of its utility. A speedy Taunt stops most hazard leads and prevents most setup attempts. Knock Off is painful for walls, especially the Ghost-type variants. Not to mention its STABs hit almost every variant of the S Rank mons super effectively. I've included a replay showing some of its utility.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7camomons-869514272 (Taunts and cripples D-nite, knocks out Mawile, Chansey, and Latios)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7camomons-807136894 (Taunts Volcarona, uses its ability and takes out Hoopa-U)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7camomons-837749506 (Handles the suicide lead, dents Gyarados even with lowered attack, and gets a nice lucky crit for a KO lol)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7camomons-869617334 (Basically handles the entire team here)
 
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Funbot28

Porque yo soy tu veneno
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon


I can definitely get behind the removal of Dnite, mainly due to the issues arising from STAB Espeed + great setup opportunities via Multiscale and good bulk which enables it many opportunities to setup and clean teams like no other thanks to a strong priority move which can be hard to deal with without a fat steel (although more Dnite's nowadays are starting to go with Fire / Normal just to beat your common Steel / Flying Mew). This is not the only possibility however as Dnite can also be seen running abilities such as Normal / Dragon, Dragon / Steel and even Dragon / Fire which really makes it hard to play around as realistically, one cannot determine what set Dnite is at team preview. While we may have other threatening DD sweepers such as Mega Gyara and Haxorus that still can be threatening in their own right, none of them compare to the same caliber as Dnite imo, ad this is not even taking into account CB sets which also pose as one of the best wallbreakers in the tier bar none. It should really get the boot sooner or later.



Not sure where I stand with the implementation of Zygarde. Imo it was the second best mon in the metagame behind Dnite mainly for the same reasoning, a bulky DD sweeper that has a bunch of typing options. However, Zyg also had the added benefit of having access to one of the best moves in the game in Tarrows which let it beat most of its traditional checks. We did see some adaptation to its presence, where Grass typings were starting to spring up on bulky pivots such as Slowbro and Mew. I also appreciated the fact that Zyg could beat most levitating Poisons such as Cress and Mega Lati that got way better after its departing as previously mentioned, maybe even as good as potentially being broken. I think a re-suspect can be issued as Zyg adds a lot of benefit to the tier and Camo in general can offer more counterplay to Tarrow spam (although Zyg can potentially play around it with a Poison typing as it started to later on), but I must say that Zyg did also restrict the meta to some degree as Grass-types were becoming almost mandatory when it was around, esp when Sub DD + coil sets became a thing.


Now onto some VR noms of my own:
A -> A-
Chandy is still a great setup sweeper / stallbreaker that benefits from abusing a semi-unique typing, however this typing was mainly brought on thanks to the presence of Zygarde. Now with its removal I do not really see the benefit of using Chandy all that much apart from having a more solid matchup against more defensive teams.

A -> A+
I think Lele is an amazing breaker right now that can abuse added STAB coverage from a Fighting or Electric typing which can beat down common Steel types like Heatran, Mew, and even Kommo-o (although watch out for Bulletproof). Both Scarf and Z-Move Calm Mind sets are really good and even if Lele does not have the best bulk, it can comfortably switch into a CB Dnite locked into Espeed and even more passive threats like Cresselia and non Steel-type Mew in order to put in a lot of damage.

A- -> A
While Pex may not be the most versatile of mons, it still can abuse both a Water / Poison or Poison / Dark typing that can let it handle stuff like Kommo-O, Tapu Lele, Magearna, and even Mega Latias depending on the set. Being one of the only viable Tspike setters is also p huge in a meta where most Poison types are levitating meaning they can stay up the majority of the match as well. Its not even that passive as well considering it can use moves such as Scald and Knock Off to cripple the majority of switchins in a pinch.

B -> B-
With Zyg banned, Tangrowth isn't all that special especially given the amount of Poison types which can just stop it in its tracks. It is also not all that versatile in typings as well, where it can maybe get a way with a Grass / Poison typing, but there are many other better Poison type pivots (Pex and Torn-T say hi).

UR -> B [Ground / Flying, Flying / Grass, Grass / Fighting]
A big jump yes, but I feel Scept to be the better Unburden sweeper compared the Hawlucha mainly due to a better abusable STAB combination (mainly being Ground / Flying) which lets it get away with more sweeps in general. Also, it pairs well with Koko as the Tapu can help break down checks such as Mega Latias and Cress to upon up a sweep. Just a mon I feel is a bit undervalued right now.

UR -> B- [Water / Ground]
Quag should be ranked as well as it is the best Unaware option for Stall teams and Stall is still a very potent playstyle in this meta despite what some may say. Being able to check dangerous threats such as Dragonite, Mega Charizard X and Victini is huge while it still can be a nuisance to most teams thanks to Scald + Toxic shenanigans.

I also agree with the rises of Mega Gyara and Haxorus for sure, they are great setup sweepers that can get away with many sweeps thanks to Mold Breaker and a diverse movepool to open up the option for many typings. Also, some typings need to be added and removed but I guess that can be done on a later date. FreeCamo!
 

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