Metagame Camomons

I did try it (so it's definitely a noob trap). I went for a Sash, Shell Smash set with Ground/Fighting, to explore that nice offensive typing. I paired it with scarf Lele to somewhat mitigate priority after set up. It really needs to preserve its sash, though, or it is almost never going to set up and attempt to sweep afterwards, so Defog/Spin support is appreciated.
Also, that Ground/Fighting coverage does miss out on any Poison variant of Mega-Latias, so the 3rd move should be chosen accordingly (Stone Edge is likely your best bet...). Drill Run as a ground move has a little more power than Earthquake, but is less reliable.
It does hit hard and outspeed many threats after set-up, but it is also very frail, even beforehand.
The other typings you mentioned, Yung Dramps, also sound interesting! :)
 
So happy to see Dragonite finally going! Hopefully this is a beginning of a great future for Camomons.
Regarding Zygarde, I'm still not fully sold on allowing it back, and with all of the difficulties of the Dragonite suspect, there's not an easy way to go about testing it either. But for now, we can be happy that Dragonite is gone and move forward (and enjoy a meta with no popular Extreme Speed users until Lucario pops up).
I did want to discuss one nomination that I had planned to make regardless of the Dragonite decision, and that's
Mew A+ to S
Mew is one of if not the most meta defining Pokemon in this meta, it's able to run just about any type successfully and can perform any support role you need. There's really not a lot to it, Mew's support is so unmatched and it's easily the most splashable Pokemon in the meta by far. It's hard to even really argue for it because it can perform just about any role your team needs and to pinpoint on any one role underrates Mew as a whole. The only real flaws Mew has is that similar to Arceus in Ubers, it provides so much support that you often want more than one on your team, and that there's no one Mew set that stands out from the others as the "best" and alone makes it S (Steel/Flying is always a classic and is arguably the most splashable, but other sets like Water/Ground, Dragon/Steel or MANY others are still as good and used a lot.) It's the combination of these many, many usable sets that makes Mew S.
Anyways, again sooo happy that Dragonite is gone and I'm super excited to see where this will take us in the Camomons metagame (+Snake hype so you know there's gonna be a ton of new fire)
 
VR Update 6/12 (will be updated in the OP soon)
Viability Rankings
> S Rank <
Kommo-o [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Latias-Mega [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Mew [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] + almost any

> A Rank <
[ a+ ]
Cresselia [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Landorus-T [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Mawile-Mega [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]

[ a ]
Aerodactyl-Mega [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Buzzwole [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Heatran [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Heracross [
/
] [
/
]
Latias [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Medicham-Mega [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Porygon-Z [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Snorlax [
/
] [
/
]
Tapu Lele [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Tornadus-T [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Victini [
/
]

[ a- ]
Alakazam-Mega [
/
]
Beedrill-Mega [
/
] [
/
]
Chansey [
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Charizard-Mega-X [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Greninja-Ash [
/
] [
/
]
Gyarados-Mega [
/
] [
/
]
Hoopa-U [
/
]
Latios [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Magearna [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Manaphy [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Scizor-Mega [
/
] [
/
]
Tapu Koko [
/
] [
/
]
Volcanion [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Volcarona [
/
] [
/
]

> B Rank <
[ b+ ]
Charizard-Mega-Y [
/
] [
/
]
Clefable [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Diancie-Mega [
/
] [
/
]
Diggersby [
/
]
Hydreigon [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Reuniclus [
/
] [
/
]
Sableye-Mega [
/
] [
/
]
Salamence [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Slowbro-Mega [
/
]
Toxapex [
/
] [
/
]
Tyranitar [
/
]
Tyranitar-Mega [
/
] [
/
]

[ b ]
Articuno [
/
]
Avalugg [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Azelf [
/
] [
/
]
Celebi [
/
]
Chandelure [
/
]
Chesnaught [
/
]
Gallade-Mega [
/
][
/
] [
/
]
Gliscor [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Haxorus [
/
] [
/
]
Jirachi [
/
] [
/
]
Magnezone [
/
]
Sharpedo-Mega [
/
] [
/
]
Slowbro [
/
]
Tapu Bulu [
/
] [
/
]
Zeraora [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]

[ b- ]
Blastoise-Mega [
/
] [
/
]
Cloyster [
/
] [
/
]
Excadrill [
/
] [
/
]
Ferrothorn [
/
] [
/
]
Hawlucha [
/
] [
/
]
Heracross-Mega [
/
]
Hippowdon [
/
] [
/
]
Slurpuff [
/
]
Smeargle [
/
]
Stakataka [
/
]
Tangrowth [
/
] [
]
Terrakion [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Thundurus [
/
]

> C Rank <
Cryogonal [
/
] [
/
]
Feraligatr [
/
]
Gligar [
/
]
Kyurem [
/
]
Moltres [
/
] [
/
]
Quagsire [
/
] [
/
]
Rhydon [
/
] [
/
]
Sceptile [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Uxie [
/
] [
/
] [
/
] [
/
]
Venusaur-Mega [
/
]
Xurkitree [
/
] [
/
]

Kommo-O: A+ to S
Mew: A+ to S
Landorus-Therian: A to A+
Greninja-Ash: A to A-
Chandelure: A to B
Snorlax: A- to A
Victini: A- to A
Diggersby: A- to B+
Toxapex: A- to B+
Aerodactyl-Mega: B+ to A
Beedrill-Mega: B+ to A-
Gyarados-Mega: B+ to A-
Scizor-Mega: B+ to A-
Slowbro-Mega: UR to B+
Haxorus: B+ to B
Alakazam-Mega: B to A-
Charizard-Mega-Y: B to B+
Clefable: B to B+
Diancie-Mega: B to B+
Hippowdon: B to B-
Tangrowth: B to B-
Terrakion: B to B-
Celesteela: B to UR
Azelf: B- to B
Jirachi: B- to B
Uxie: B- to C
Salamence: C to B+
Gligar: UR to C
Quagsire: UR to C
Sceptile: UR to C
Venusaur-Mega: UR to C
Today the council is bringing you guys a long overdue update to the Viability Rankings! It's been almost a year since the last update, with a lot of metagame devolopment along with Dragonite being banned during that span, so there was a lot of shifting within the ranks and typings removed/added. Not getting into the entire change log as there's too much to make note of every change, but large changes are the additions of Mew and Kommo-O to S rank. Mew's splashability and versatility speak for itself, and Kommo-O has proven to be one of the most potent threats in the metagame over the past few months. Other dramatic shifts such as Aerodactyl-Mega, Alakazam-Mega and Salamence all jumping up multiple ranks higher, while Chandelure drops an entire subrank are all due to metagame shifts over time.
While this is all for now, there are many upcoming updates to our resources as we move forward, so stay tuned!
 
Here with a mini-post-snake team dump (click images for pastes):

182809182810182811182812182813182814
Volt turn to crab which kills everything. Close Combat is probably better than Focus Punch for this team, but focus punch is also more fun. This team isn't great for long games, since lanturn gets worn down pretty easily, especially with Lando-T as the defogger. But overall, the team hits a good offensive-defensive balance and has solid breaking and cleaning options.

182816182817182818182819182821182822
Unironically a decent team. Mega Latias is an incredibly consistent win-con, Heatran and chesnaught get up hazards (main thing that stops Heatran rocks is opposing Latias, and Chesnaught beats every common variant of them so hazards almost always go up). I'm not going to pretend poliwag is a good pokemon, but it does wall water/poison Mega Latias completely and there were testing games where I picked up 1-2 clutch kills with it so it's probably at least a B+ tier mon. For other options, I'd consider chilan berry on mew to improve the horrible heracross matchup, explosion over defog on Lando-T, and something else that beats mega latias over poliwag that isn't poliwag.
 
Last edited:
latias-mega.gif
Hi guys, after some deliberation from the council, we have decided to ban Latias-Mega from Camomons. Its has been a formidable threat for a long time, and many have wanted to see it banned for just as long as Dragonite. With its Water/Poison threat, counterplay is very centralized due to its massive bulk, good speed tier and solid offensive stats along with Toxic to wear down things it can't directly break. This overcentralization of its checks makes what little counterplay Latias-Mega has very exploitable, whether through other offensive typings that have been used recently to break common checks such as Dragon/Poison, Water/Dragon or even Water/Electric, or through other strong offensive threats that are able to actively pressure its checks such as Pursuit Snorlax, Kommo-O, or just about any Dragon or Fairy breakers. We believe that removing Latias-Mega will help promote a more diverse metagame that doesn't force such radical counterplay to threats.

Feel free to discuss the current metagame post Latias-Mega ban. We feel this will definetely shake up the metagame quite a bit. Will threats such as Latias or Latios-Mega who can perform the same role (at a lower level due to less bulk) fill this void? Discuss!
 
Hi, I have a design question for In The Hills or the Camomons council in general.

Camomons Ubers was recently selected as Mashups Spotlight, and it came to our attention that although Arceus displays an overridden typing based on its moves in the battle UI like other Pokemon, its inherent type-changing behaviour overrides the Camomons mechanic internally, and it remains Normal-type (or whatever typing its Plate/Z-Crystal would normally give it, if it has Multitype). After testing Silvally, which I believe is legal in vanilla Camomons, it behaves in the same way, i.e. the UI misrepresents its typing.

It seems that something is clearly wrong here, but I'm not sure what the intended behaviour was meant to be. Should Silvally/Arceus:-

1. Follow the Camomons mechanic and change typing based on their moves?
2. Ignore the Camomons mechanic, and maintain their inherent typing, but display that typing in the battle UI instead of the typing from their moves?

* I am not asking for a technical fix here, just a judgement about what the behaviour should be. Urkerab has already kindly supplied a way of implementing 2.

Many thanks for your help.

EDIT:

I discussed how option 1 would work with users on Showdown. It seems more complex than I first thought, as there are several ways it could work, but I have created sample ladders to test one version for anybody interested.

People in chat pointed out that Silvally/Arceus ignore the effects of dynamic type changes from moves like Reflect Type, and that seems correct to maintain, but it also seems orthogonal to the Camomons mechanic, rather than an argument that these Pokemon should be exempt from the mechanic in principal rather than on technical grounds. Although the implementation of Camomons is more like the effect of an in-battle dynamic change, my feeling from reading the opening post here, as well as the fact that the new typing is fully defined at build time, is that the typing change is meant to be more like a new template that exists prior to the battle starting, rather than a dynamic, in-battle effect similar to Soak.

If a Silvally/Arceus has no trigger item and would normally be Normal-typed, I think there is a strong argument to be made that the Pokemon should follow the regular Camomons rule. The base Normal typing seems to in principle represent a default that may, but not necessarily be, overridden by a compatible item; the ability wording, "If this Pokemon is a Silvally, its type changes to match its held Memory." reflects this, i.e. there is no defined change from a regular baseline state without a memory. Therefore I made non-item Silvally/Arceus follow normal Camomons behaviour on the test ladder.

Whether RKS System/Multitype in conjunction with their associated items should override Camomons typing seems like a direct behaviour conflict that could be argued either way. While a somewhat arbitrary decision, I thought it would be more intuitive if RKS System/Multitype are still able to follow their stated effect. Hence, I made it so that these items DO take priority over the new, Camomon-defined baseline typing, but this item-defined typing is shown correctly like with option 2.

But that's just like my opinion, man. You can test for yourself at trashchannel.psim.us :-

* [Gen 7] Camomons Ubers (Mutable Basis Silvally/Arceus Test) and [Gen 7] Camomons (Mutable Basis Silvally/Arceus Test) demonstrate option 1.

* [Gen 7] Camomons Ubers and [Gen 7] Camomons demonstrate option 2.
 
Last edited:
Hi, I have a design question for In The Hills or the Camomons council in general.

Camomons Ubers was recently selected as Mashups Spotlight, and it came to our attention that although Arceus displays an overridden typing based on its moves in the battle UI like other Pokemon, its inherent type-changing behaviour overrides the Camomons mechanic internally, and it remains Normal-type (or whatever typing its Plate/Z-Crystal would normally give it, if it has Multitype). After testing Silvally, which I believe is legal in vanilla Camomons, it behaves in the same way, i.e. the UI misrepresents its typing.

It seems that something is clearly wrong here, but I'm not sure what the intended behaviour was meant to be. Should Silvally/Arceus:-

1. Follow the Camomons mechanic and change typing based on their moves?
2. Ignore the Camomons mechanic, and maintain their inherent typing, but display that typing in the battle UI instead of the typing from their moves?

* I am not asking for a technical fix here, just a judgement about what the behaviour should be. Urkerab has already kindly supplied a way of implementing 2.

Many thanks for your help.

EDIT:

I discussed how option 1 would work with users on Showdown. It seems more complex than I first thought, as there are several ways it could work, but I have created sample ladders to test one version for anybody interested.

People in chat pointed out that Silvally/Arceus ignore the effects of dynamic type changes from moves like Reflect Type, and that seems correct to maintain, but it also seems orthogonal to the Camomons mechanic, rather than an argument that these Pokemon should be exempt from the mechanic in principal rather than on technical grounds. Although the implementation of Camomons is more like the effect of an in-battle dynamic change, my feeling from reading the opening post here, as well as the fact that the new typing is fully defined at build time, is that the typing change is meant to be more like a new template that exists prior to the battle starting, rather than a dynamic, in-battle effect similar to Soak.

If a Silvally/Arceus has no trigger item and would normally be Normal-typed, I think there is a strong argument to be made that the Pokemon should follow the regular Camomons rule. The base Normal typing seems to in principle represent a default that may, but not necessarily be, overridden by a compatible item; the ability wording, "If this Pokemon is a Silvally, its type changes to match its held Memory." reflects this, i.e. there is no defined change from a regular baseline state without a memory. Therefore I made non-item Silvally/Arceus follow normal Camomons behaviour on the test ladder.

Whether RKS System/Multitype in conjunction with their associated items should override Camomons typing seems like a direct behaviour conflict that could be argued either way. While a somewhat arbitrary decision, I thought it would be more intuitive if RKS System/Multitype are still able to follow their stated effect. Hence, I made it so that these items DO take priority over the new, Camomon-defined baseline typing, but this item-defined typing is shown correctly like with option 2.

But that's just like my opinion, man. You can test for yourself at trashchannel.psim.us :-

* [Gen 7] Camomons Ubers (Mutable Basis Silvally/Arceus Test) and [Gen 7] Camomons (Mutable Basis Silvally/Arceus Test) demonstrate option 1.

* [Gen 7] Camomons Ubers and [Gen 7] Camomons demonstrate option 2.
Hey sorry about not getting back to you earlier I brought it up with the council when you first posted and got no response zzz
Ideally Arceus/Silvally should follow the rules of Camomons given that Mega Evolution and other type changes from different formes do as well, but I think the issue comes in with the fact that they are both hard-coded to Normal-type unless holding relevant Plates/Memories and have their signature abilities active (as evidenced by the way Arceus behaves in Balanced Hackmons)

I think that due to their nature, we should make an exception for Arceus and Silvally (similarly to how metagames that adjust the HP Stat still have Shedinja hardcoded at 1HP) and allow their abilities to effectively change their typing. As far as Normal Arceus/Silvally go, while there’s no stated effect for type change, Soak/Reflect Type still don’t take effect with non-Plate Arceus, and as such they should still be hardcoded to Normal type. Displaying their inherent typing seems to be the easier here fix as well given that urkerab has supposedly already provided a solution.
Tagging The Immortal
 
Hey sorry about not getting back to you earlier I brought it up with the council when you first posted and got no response zzz
Ideally Arceus/Silvally should follow the rules of Camomons given that Mega Evolution and other type changes from different formes do as well, but I think the issue comes in with the fact that they are both hard-coded to Normal-type unless holding relevant Plates/Memories and have their signature abilities active (as evidenced by the way Arceus behaves in Balanced Hackmons)

I think that due to their nature, we should make an exception for Arceus and Silvally (similarly to how metagames that adjust the HP Stat still have Shedinja hardcoded at 1HP) and allow their abilities to effectively change their typing. As far as Normal Arceus/Silvally go, while there’s no stated effect for type change, Soak/Reflect Type still don’t take effect with non-Plate Arceus, and as such they should still be hardcoded to Normal type. Displaying their inherent typing seems to be the easier here fix as well given that urkerab has supposedly already provided a solution.
Tagging The Immortal
Thanks for the feedback. I submitted a pull request for just Urkerab's UI changes, so hopefully this should be made effective soon.
 
Thanks to everyone who participated in the second edition of our Camomons tour! Was a really great turnout this time around (close to some of the Fall Seasonals in signups ;]) and was happy to see it go by smoothly and congrats to Matiss98 again. On to other matters...
The council has decided to ban Kommonium Z from Camomons! Kommonium Z was very unhealthy for the metagame because it overcentralized Kommo-O's counterplay and made it too easy for Kommo-O to abuse. There are very few ways to stop Clangorous Soulblaze, with most teams only having a Fairy to try and stop this 185BP '+1 to all stats' attack, which Kommo-O could easily abuse with its Dragon/Steel sets. Checks like Water/Fairy Mew or Fire/Fairy and Electric/Fairy Pokemon were solid checks to Kommonium, but they allowed Kommo-O to set Stealth Rock easily, and were worn down in the long run by coverage and/or Taunt. Teams that used Steel types such as Steel/Flying Mew to attempt to check Kommo-O fell to Fire/Dragon sets or still eventually lost to Dragon/Steel who could either wear them down with Taunt, or beat them with coverage options like Flamethrower. After a lot of deliberation, we decided that banning Kommonium rather than Kommo-O was the better decision, as Kommonium forced teams to have shaky at best counterplay to Kommo-O.

How do you guys think Kommo-O will fare in the metagame without its signature Z-Move? Will it still be a solid Stealth Rock user or will it fade out to other options? Will Dragon Dance sets become more popular? It will be interesting to see how this ban effects the metagame, especially in tours in the near future.
Tagging The Immortal
 
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Funbot28

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Glad to finally see Kommonium Z banned, really made it quite the impossible threat to handle to be quite honest and just made checking the abundance of sets it could have run (whether it be Dragon / Steel, Dragon / Fire, or even other sets such as Fighting / Fire) just a pain to be deal with and I feel it will just free up teambuilding with it gone now (ie: not needing a Fairy on every balance / bulky offense lol). I still think Kommo-o will have a place in the metagame however, with sets such as Stealth Rock + Life Orb, Dragon Dance, Specially Defensive, and Belly Drum + Salac Berry still having uses in my eyes, it just is at a more tolerable level in terms of threat wise now which is really nice. Anyways with the Camo II tour done now I thought I would share some teams that still can work in post Kommo-Z meta and can maybe be added to samples:


CM Latias + Zone Bulky Offense

Fun little bulky offense that abuses the rise of CM Latias (aka the slightly less viable but still impact version of it's banned mega form) where trappers such as Aerodactyl and Magnezone can help it force a win condition. Heatran is also a nice little offensive set that can check huge threats such as Victini, Fire / Dragon Kommo, and Volcorona. Mew is the main Ground resist of the team and just general great deffoger that can beat many SR users one on one while Landorus is speed control and pairs well with zone to bring in Flying / Steel types.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7camomons-972465986


AV Torn Balance

AV Torn is at a really good spot rn in the meta and also appreciates the decline of Dragon / Steel variants of Kommo due to the removal of it's Z-Move. However, this team can still function quite well even after the ban with the combination of CM Reuniclus and DD Mega Gyara breaking through most of the defensive cores in the meta. The rest if kinda standard stuff, where Mew + Clefable pair really well with eachother alongside the support of Torn-T and Lando is speed control again.

Forgot to save any important replays unfort.




Articuno + Ditto Stall

Team I wanted to share the most (ofc), this team brought me quite a lot of success throughout the tournament. Basic premise is to have a stall that utilizes Cuno pressure shenanigans in conjunction with Mega Sab in order to block hazards, Quag + Ditto for setup sweepers (where the ladder is important in checking Mold Breaker setup sweepers specifically) and Mew + Chansey rounding off the defensive core. Team also gets better with no more Kommo-Z since there is a clear lack of a Fairy user to absorb the Z-Move (although the matchup is still doable as displayed in one of the replays). But ye, I feel this is a pretty successful stall team that is somewhat easy to autopilot with.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7camomons-975015764
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7camomons-972468998

And thats it. Really like the direction meta is going towards and excited to see what SWSH can bring!
 

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