Data Candles of Known Brightness: OU edition

[Expulso]

Here's a start, I'm working on more!

Pound
Karate Chop
Double-Slap
Comet Punch
Mega Punch
Pay Day
Scratch
Vice Grip
Razor Wind (?)
Cut
Gust
Wing Attack
Fly
Bind
Slam
Vine Whip
Stomp
Double Kick
Mega Kick (?)
Rolling Kick
Sand Attack
Headbutt
Horn Attack
Fury Attack
Tackle

 

[Hidious]

Fly is actually usable on physical Thundurus-I

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Flame Body Talonflame.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-102252943

it can catch people off guard, as seen in the replay it's the only reason my pinsir didn't sweep the rest of his team.

 

[Antar]

Wow, that's a lot of responses. Locking temporarily so I can catch up.

How strict does this definition need to be? A common case is Sylveon vs Florges. In OU Sylveon is better than Florges in any conceivable way, but she does have better speed and a different movepool.

VERY strict. So Florges doesn't count due to the higher speed.

 

[Antar]

I'd also add any pokemon that has Assault Vest and status moves (barring Klutz as a gimmick), any non-Trick Choiced pokemon with status-boosting moves, and any pokemon with Acrobatics without a disposable item/lack of item.

Cross-correlations are too hard (see my comment about Hyper Beam Adaptability PoryZ).

• Jolly Talonflame

This irks me that it is even used.

Yeah, no.

Regarding shit moves and stage-1 Pokemon: I'm looking for a hopefully small list of candles designed to showcase the differences between higher and lower cutoffs. Are people actually using Pound in OU? If so, fine. But I *really* doubt it's happening a significant amount of the time to be useful.

Life orb shedinja

Yeah, no one's using LO Shedinja, dude.

Here's a handy way to check if a metric is useful: peruse the moveset stats and find things that don't belong.

Hydro Cannon, Blast Burn, and Frenzy Plant (and Roar of Time, I've seen Smeargle with it before) to go along with Hyper Beam/Giga Impact.

Yeah, this is valid.

Speaking of Smeargle, maybe any Smeargle with an offensive move should count, unless it's something that has a significant supportive effect like Rapid Spin.

Blergh classifying moves as offensive. So no.

Would something like non-Drizzle Politoed fall under this?

Yes!

Flame Body Talonflame.

No!


Thanks for the enormous response, you guys! Reopening now.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-102252943

it can catch people off guard, as seen in the replay it's the only reason my pinsir didn't sweep the rest of his team.

Gale Wings Talonflame would have OHKOd your Pinsir without having to die in the process.

It's a very situational bonus that involves sacrificing what makes Talonflame OU in the first place.

No!

Why not? Besides the fact it sucks, there are people in the lower ladder using it. I've seem people saying they use it just to rebel against Smogon.

 

[Hidious]

Bite is used on mega gyrardos, sing is viable on a few pokemon. It just is unreliable

 

[Aragorn the King]

Would something like non-Drizzle Politoed fall under this?
Yes!

In this vain, what about Unnerve Tyranitar, Soundproof Abomasnow, and Flash Fire Ninetales?

EDIT: Fair points, everyone

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Gale Wings Talonflame would have OHKOd your Pinsir without having to die in the process.

It's a very situational bonus that involves sacrificing what makes Talonflame OU in the first place.

he used flare blitz and I lived with 1hp, the exact same thing would have happened if he used brave bird because they have the same base power

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Regarding shit moves and stage-1 Pokemon: I'm looking for a hopefully small list of candles designed to showcase the differences between higher and lower cutoffs. Are people actually using Pound in OU? If so, fine. But I *really* doubt it's happening a significant amount of the time to be useful.

Ha, glad I read this before I kept compiling my gigantic list of crappy moves. Still, I got all the terrible non-damaging moves set for debate/implementation.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Why not? Besides the fact it sucks, there are people in the lower ladder using it. I've seem people saying they use it just to rebel against Smogon.

Note that if one person says, "X has no competitive use" and another replies, "actually, X is useful in this particular niche," as long as that reply isn't out-and-out wrong, the discussion on that metric will be considered closed in favor of that metric not being a good candle.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

he used flare blitz and I lived with 1hp, the exact same thing would have happened if he used brave bird because they have the same base power

He could be running Sharp Beak (with means Brave Bird would be stronger). If he wasnt, then:

252+ Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 270-318 (99.2 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

That's a Talonflame not running any offensive item (which is very rare), and you being incredibly lucky.

He could have been running Jolly too, but a Jolly Talonflame with no boosting item is just plain stupid. You can't get your attack any lower unless you stop using attack EVs.

No, just no.

 

[Adonzo]

In this vain, what about Unnerve Tyranitar, Soundproof Abomasnow, and Flash Fire Ninetales?

Flash Fire Ninetales, sure, but non-weather Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Abomasnow have small niches in allowing their use without damaging teammates (or bringing the weather in at a more opportune time in the case of the megas)

 

[Antar]

It's a very situational bonus that involves sacrificing what makes Talonflame OU in the first place.

Situational is fine. I'm looking for things that have ZERO use.

Bite is used on mega gyrardos, sing is viable on a few pokemon. It just is unreliable

Bite is a good candle, Sing is not.

In this vain, what about Unnerve Tyranitar, Soundproof Abomasnow, and Flash Fire Ninetales?

FF Ninetales, yes. Unnerve TTar no. Soundproof Abomasnow, no. (thx, Adonzo).

 

[Karxrida]

Flash Fire Ninetales, sure, but non-weather Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Abomasnow have small niches in allowing their use without damaging teammates (or bringing the weather in at a more opportune time in the case of the megas)

Soundproof Abomasnow can also switch in on Sylveon without any problems.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Life orb shedinja

Black Sludge you mean.

I also disagree that Hyper Beam is "okay" when used in conjunction with Adaptability/Pixilate/Refrigerate; the recharge turn is way too exploitable by an opponent, no serious player would consider using Hyper Beam no matter how hard it hits.

Also, would it be possible to use theme teams as a candle? Like would it be detectable? I'm thinking stuff like anime teams, mono-types, etc.

 

[Adonzo]

i imagine only mono-type teams at most would be detectable by any means

 

[Antar]

Black Sludge you mean.

No one's using Black Sludge Shedinja either.

I also disagree that Hyper Beam is "okay" when used in conjunction with Adaptability/Pixilate/Refrigerate; the recharge turn is way too exploitable by an opponent, no serious player would consider using Hyper Beam no matter how hard it hits.

I'm erring on the side of caution, and WebBowser made the case for Adaptability PoryZ Hyper Beam in the other thread.

Also, would it be possible to use theme teams as a candle? Like would it be detectable? I'm thinking stuff like anime teams, mono-types, etc.

Not at this time, no. If I write the ability to detect mono teams, I'm using it first to give OU Monotype type usage stats.

 

[branflakes]

Cute Charm Moonblast vs. Pixilate Hyper voice on Sylveon?

Technically, Cute Charm can be used to your advantage along with Moonblast's unreliable 30% chance to lower the opponent's SpAtk. However, it seems completely inferior to Hyper Voice which is significantly stronger and hits through subs.

Idk. I just see very little competitive reason to use the former, though I see it all the time. It seems about as viable as using Soundproof Abomasnow to switch into Sylveon's Hyper Voice lol

EDIT: I'm having trouble seeing the fine line between outclassed and "technically not outclassed". Greninja can use Hydro Cannon as a more powerful and more accurate Hydro Pump if it's going to be KO'd on that turn anyway.

 

[Hidious]

Situational is fine. I'm looking for things that have ZERO use.


Bite is valid, Sing is not.

FF Ninetales, yes. Unnerve TTar no. Soundproof Abomasnow, no. (thx, Adonzo).

Sing has more than zero use with Blissey/Chansey. It has plenty of opportunities to hit a switch in with sing and provide some momentum. It actually got a mention in OO in the BW Blissey analysis. It isn't great, but it is better than some other stuff that isn't being added

 

[dr00]

what about charge up moves without power herb (or in the case of solarbeam, without sunny day / drought on the team)? i don't think a blanket statement about all charge up moves should be made, and i'm not sure exactly how it should be quantified. but i can say easily that solarbeam without sunny day / drought / power herb is fairly useless. other than what? groudon? it doesn't hit any typical sunny weather team member very hard, so it can't even be argued that it's on a team for the purposes of countering someone else's sunny weather.

i would also say sky attack is useless without power herb

geomancy, i'm unsure about. it's a pretty massive boost, even giving up the one turn might be worth it. power herb / geomancy is clearly better, but smeargle runs lum berry and focus sash a lot, so idk

post #28 says that fly is worthwhile on physical thundurus-I. could we say that, for example, fly on hawlucha is useless?

i think bounce got some use last gen on things like gyarados, but now with its mega losing the flying type, is it worth it anymore? (honest question, as i don't know)

 

[Aragorn the King]

Cute Charm Moonblast vs. Pixilate Hyper voice on Sylveon?

Technically, Cute Charm can be used to your advantage along with Moonblast's unreliable 30% chance to lower the opponent's SpAtk. However, it seems completely inferior to Hyper Voice which is significantly stronger and hits through subs.

Idk. I just see very little competitive reason to use the former, though I see it all the time. It seems about as viable as using Soundproof Abomasnow to switch into Sylveon's Hyper Voice lol

I see Cute Charm Sylveon ALL the time. And as soon as I want to "correct them," it always ends up infatuating me. So I think that may be enough not to make it a candle of known brightness.

 

[Salt]

Wait a sec, Bite Gyarados was added to the list? Isn't it supposed to be a viable move considering its Mega Gyarados' only Dark STAB?

EDIT: It's even a slash on the analysis for the Mega Dragon Dance set, so I don't see any reason it should be there

 

[Red Cat]

Aguav Berry, Figy Berry, Iapapa Berry, Mago Berry, and Wiki Berry. They are all outclassed by Sitrus Berry.

 

[Ajwf]

-Protect found usage on Charizard-X/Y. 1.2%, but usage to show up. Definitely an oddity that is detrimental to Charizard in general.
-Steel wing Talonflame saw 6%, but that might be for BU sets to take on Tyranitar.
-Thick Fat Azumarill saw nearly 2% usage... Considering the position it has, that's slightly relevant. Also consider that the better 'gimmick' counter to Zard-Y is the Sap Sipper set.
-Payback Tyranitar is hardly relevant. 1.2% usage.
-Superpower Dragonite... If anyone can give an explanation? It had 2.5% usage. Rocks/Steels relevant to super power taken better by EQ. Ruins DD and Dragon should stab at Darks just as well.
-Choice scarf Bisharp... 1.021% Also Poison Jab Bisharp at 2.772. Steel stab hits fairies better, relevant grass types in tier (Ferro/Venu/Loom) Immune/Neutral/Dies to either. First two hit harder by iron head, obviously.
-Synchronize Espeon, used at 3%
-Effect spore, Black belt breloom. Registered 3.8 and .8% respectively.
-Spike Cannon Cloyster? 20 BP normal type move. Yes, hits 5 turns but coverage is awful and no player using cloyster should ever use this. 2.5%

Dragonite, Gengar, Togekiss, Infernape, Volcarona all registered actual hits in the item category carrying nothing. Perhaps something to talk about, items and such.

That's all my searching. Got to cloyster.