CAP 10 CAP 10 - Concept Assessment

[familyguyman]

Alright, now that I've got some free time, I'll jump in.


The vibe I'm getting from this concept is something like Jirachi or Celebi but able to be more specific.

The stats are very strong and balanced. The typing is good defensively, mediocre offensively but the movepool is varied and also powerful.

I think going Multitype is a bit much because then it becomes an unpredictable threat. I imagine, when used in battle, CAP 10 will draw strength from something like switching into Scizor but the opponent being unsure if it's a Scizor counter or a Gyarados counter. Multitype amplifies this but I feel it is going too far. We should be able to create the right mix without using Multitype.

Next, I think we have to grasp what we mean by hard counter. It will be near impossible to be able to switch into Salamence or Heatran or Scizor or Gyarados or Latias all in one Pokemon with slight variations. For example, Gyarados is a great counter to Heatran and Scizor, Scizor is a good counter for Salamence and Latias, Starmie can handle all of them decently. I think emulating these Pokemon might be a good place to start. Another good theme there is speed/priority mixed with moderately bulky offense.

I think Ice Shard is a given, Water typing seems pretty potent, etc.

 

[Objection]

I meant weak when attacking a pokemon of a type... although, I was wrong... Now that I think about it, the amount it three, not two... <.<

Generally, when people say "weak to Ground-type" for example, they mean "takes super effective damage from Ground-type moves".

I imagine, when used in battle, CAP 10 will draw strength from something like switching into Scizor but the opponent being unsure if it's a Scizor counter or a Gyarados counter.

If you send it in against Scizor, it's obviously going to be a Scizor counter. It may or may not also be a Gyarados counter. Odds are, it probably won't be a Latias counter or a Rotom-H counter, so send in one of those two pokemon.

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I don't know if we should be talking about typing yet; we haven't even figured out general guidelines for how this concept should be implemented.

Yeah, that may be my bad. My post was not supposed to be about typing, it was about the idea of two abilities that starkly contrast. People took it on kind of a tangent.

That said, I still see ability selection as a really key way to fulfill the purpose of this CAP. Ability is the one thing where you must choose either one option or another (aside from some corner cases involving egg moves, but I doubt we want to build the whole concept around that). If we really want CAP 10 to reconfigure noticeably when choosing which threats to counter, ability is a great way to do that. This as opposed to creating a mini-Mew that is less about gearing up for a key threat and more about just being very versatile.

 

[Zystral]

I'm trying not to post-whore here, but this, I have to say something to.

The vibe I'm getting from this concept is something like Jirachi or Celebi but able to be more specific.

MORE specific? This thing is meant to be able to stop virtually any [reasonable] threat. Celebi and Jirachi can only do so much due to their types and movepool. CAP 10 would be a more general, customizable type of Jirachi and Celebi. And it would probably have more concentrated stats.

I think going Multitype is a bit much because then it becomes an unpredictable threat. I imagine, when used in battle, CAP 10 will draw strength from something like switching into Scizor but the opponent being unsure if it's a Scizor counter or a Gyarados counter. Multitype amplifies this but I feel it is going too far. We should be able to create the right mix without using Multitype.

No, because giving it a set type immediately hinders it as it will then always have something it will be weak to. You can't attempt to stop everything with only two shields. Also, Scizor and Gyarados actually have one or two similar counters anyway. It would only go too far if it was impossible to tell what type it was.

Next, I think we have to grasp what we mean by hard counter. It will be near impossible to be able to switch into Salamence or Heatran or Scizor or Gyarados or Latias all in one Pokemon with slight variations. For example, Gyarados is a great counter to Heatran and Scizor, Scizor is a good counter for Salamence and Latias, Starmie can handle all of them decently. I think emulating these Pokemon might be a good place to start. Another good theme there is speed/priority mixed with moderately bulky offense.

It is physically impossible to hard counter everything with one Pokémon. Colossoil, Infernape, etc. all don't even have hard counters themselves. I think settling for Soft Countering as much as we can is a better route.

Salamence and Gyarados are both in the same boat when it comes to countering, actually due to their similar tactics. Scizor is far from a counter to Salamence OR Latias for fear of a Fire move and it can hardly to much to Latias outside of U-Turn while Salamence intimidates it.

I think Multitype is the way ahead for this concept. In terms of stats, while reasonable Speed would be needed, I think we should take priority (no pun intended) in Defense, otherwise the idea of being able to switch into virtually anything and then strike back is rendered pointless.
Having good offense doesn't seem necessary to me either, as if we don't want this to become a dead weight, then simply spreading status around the foe's team is still a good option, even if they don't have your threat, while if you had packed a specific move to stop that threat, you could be walled easily.

 

[Jandro]

Hello. I know im new i this forum but i love the whole idea behind CAP so ive decided to give my 2 cents in the whole creation.

One question i have is what threats does this pokemon is meant to counter? making a decent list of threats this pokemon could counter could go a long way in deciding this pokemon stats, abilities and type. Also I belive it is a good idea to consider the potential of eggmoves to minimize the amount of pokemon CAP10 can counter. Like for example, in his egg moves he gets ice shard and shadow sneak. But they conflict so as to make it an illegal set to have both. And lets also assume he has enough attack to OHKO salaace with ice shard and OHKO gengar with shadow sneak. So you must choose which of either you wish to counter.

Now before i keep going lets answer the threads question.
To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats?
In my belief this pokemon should be counter enough to take hits as to not die and completly destroy that set. What i mean is even if he has every single entry hazard, our CAP10 should be able to beat this threat on the switch. Even if he just lives by a sliver of his health.
Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively?
I think mostly leaning to defensive with just enough offense to take the threat down.
What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat?
The best way would have to be high HP with decent defenses. This way if the CAP10 wishes to either counter on the physical or on the special side, he just has to invest in the appropriate stat ignoring HP and what ever offensive/ speed it needs to get the job done. On the offensive he ofcourse should have enough to counter things but not so high as to become a threat on his own.
Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter?
I think it should be very limited. This pokemon's set should not counter more then 4 high threats at a time. I say 4 cause idielly it could counter 1 pokemon per moveslot. But if we encounter that 4 threats is a bit too much it can easily be lowered by requiring a certain ability to couter things OR it cannot OHKO it unless lets say he runs a counter move AND fakeout AND stealthrock up (ofcourse im saying needing this if we find the need to tow down our out of control creation).

Well this is mostly my 2 cents and i hope you dont judge me harshly for being new.

 

[Zaloog91]

To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats?
I think CAP10 should be sturdy enough that it cannot be 2HKO'd by whatever threat it is tailored against. It should also be able to kill said threat with little doubt cause how I see CAP10 is that I would tailor CAP10 to cover the major threat of my Team, so once said threat is gone my other pokemon can score the win.
Example: I have CAP10 and 5 other pokemon. Without CAP10 DDMenace rips holes through the rest of my team. So CAP10 Comes in removes the threat and then from there my remaining pokemon pretty much Carve through the rest of my opponents team.

Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively?
CAP10 Should be overall Bulky able to switch in to an attack with little harm then have enough offense to eliminate the threat. I this sense I think an interesting ability Would be Arena Trap or Shadow Tag. Since CAP10 is a pokemon able to be tailored to kill or check a specific threat the above abilities keep your opponent from switching allowing CAP10 to do it's job. So CAP10 needs to have average/decent offensive abilities to go along with Nice defense stats.

What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat?
CAP10 needs to be able to switch in to whatever attacks it's target may be carrying so Good Defense stats are pretty much a must. Offense should be decent enough to actually kill whatever CAP10 is designed to take down. Speed can really be an after thought since a good Thunderwave(or other paralysis inflicting attack) should solve any speed problems. To be capable of being customized to counter a variety of pokemon CAP10's Base stats should be alteast 575 imo.

Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter?
If CAP10's target to counter is missing then CAP10 should be able to contribute something it's team while otherwise still unlikely to really do any damage to the opponent. Like being able to launch a status or preventing Stat boosting.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Right. My thoughts; take with a pinch of salt.

• To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats?This pretty much depends, as zarator has already said, whether we take reachzero's use of the phrase 'counter' extremely literally, or else adapt it to suit our own interests. In my own case I very much doubt that even the most optimistic among us think that we can, even with Multitype, phenomenal defensive stats and a good typing taken for granted, can actually put a dead stop to any set of any Pokemon with just one set of its own. The more we tone down the definition of 'outright counter', the more reasonable the suggestion appears. Another point that needs addressing here is if defensive threats, such as Blissey, Tentacruel, etc, are threats that CAP10 should have to counter. In this case it becomes more a question of forcing them out, OHKOing outright, and having to deal with status effects rather than putting one's shoulder in the way of the titanic forces of Scizor and Salamence. To this end, I would almost certainly say that we should find a way for CAP10 to hinder them, as they do qualify as threats, though perhaps as a secondary bequest, as walls are in less need of being 'checked' most of the time, and it is not often that spaces in a party are devoted entirely to beat a Blissey weakness. In short, then, while not needed to defeat all threats, it is a very good idea for CAP10 to have a variable effectiveness - that it can, if the battler chooses, lose part of its ability to counter Salamence for extra scope against Gyarados, if that is in the battler's best interests.
• Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively? Cresselia is immensely versatile defensively, but is hampered by a lack of decent typing, recovery, and most importantly attacking stats. This coupled with a community dislike for churning out a Pokemon with low offensive stats means that it will be almost impossible for CAP10 to be successful while having low offensive stats. As people have said before, however, high defensive stats on both ends are important, and necessary to
• What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat? High defensive stats, moderate offensive stats; Speed will be curiously overlooked, perhaps, by most, but I feel that I have a few things to say in this area. Some say that Speed will be necessary in order to outrun slower threats such as Scizor, but this is not necessarily true. If we become reliant on Speed to counter threats then it is all too easy to be defeated by a surprise Choice Scarf, and if the defensive stats are compromised then CAP10 will suffer greatly.
• Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter? There are a good number of Pokemon who are perceived to be good at one thing, but can also do other things to a great extent, such as Porygon2 being able to check Heatran as well as Salamence and Gyarados. If we leave CAP10 alone, it will still be able to dig itself a nice hole in the game - I cannot see how we can either significantly change it or even consider it that relevant.

Now, if we move on to those Pokemon who one is most likely to come across:

Aerodactyl
Azelf
Blissey
Breloom
Bronzong 
Celebi
Dragonite
Dusknoir
Electivire
Empoleon
Flygon
Forretress
Gengar
Gliscor
Gyarados
Heatran
Heracross
Hippowdon
Infernape
Jirachi
Jolteon
Kingdra
Latias
Lucario
Machamp
Magnezone
Mamoswine
Metagross
Ninjask
Roserade
Rotom-A
Salamence
Scizor
Skarmory
Smeargle
Snorlax
Starmie
Suicune
Swampert
Tentacruel
Togekiss
Tyranitar
Vaporeon
Weavile
Zapdos

To be quite blunt, their diversity is almost infinite. We must, therefore, find ways of categorising them other than type matchup, since as we are well aware, for CAP10 even a good typing will bring weaknesses that could potentially cripple its ability to deal with certain threats, and hence here I have tried to group OU into categories where we may be able to group CAP10's talents as well:

[B]Ap[/B]
Aerodactyl
Weavile
 
[B]As[/B] 
Azelf
Gengar
Jolteon
Starmie
 
[B]B[/B]
Blissey
Bronzong
Dusknoir
Forretress
Skarmory
Tentacruel
 
[B]Cp[/B]
Jirachi
Swampert
Machamp
Mamoswine
Metagross
Snorlax
Gliscor
Hippowdon
 
[B]Cs[/B]
Celebi
Empoleon
Heatran
Magnezone
Suicune
Zapdos
Vaporeon
 
[B]Dp[/B]
Scizor
Breloom
Heracross
 
[B]Ds[/B]
Roserade
Rotom-A
Togekiss
 
[B]E[/B]
Dragonite
Flygon
Latias
Salamence
 
[B]F[/B]
Gyarados
Kingdra
Tyranitar
 
[B]G[/B]
Infernape
Electivire
Lucario
 
[B]H[/B]
Ninjask
Smeargle

Group A is concerned with faster, frailer sweepers not usually associated with high defensive stats, yet usually strike as purely physical or special, and hence are they divided. Group B is concerned with the strong, usually mixed walls that do not usually possess great firepower of their own, and will often resort to status or the like, thus need a different way of handling. Group C is concerned with those Pokemon with high offensive stats or otherwise capabilities, as well as considerable bulk, yet sometimes lacking or choosing not to invest in the Speed stat - in essence, tanks, again divided into (usually) physical and (usually) special. Group D is concerned with Pokemon of high offensive stats, but who are usually associated with higher Speed and less imposing defensive stats than those in Group C, and who thus constitute a different threat, although for most of them going with bulk over Speed is still an option, and who are again separated into physical and special. Group E is reserved for Dragons - who, to be honest, aren't really a subcategory but are diverse and powerful and similar enough to warrant their own class, not to mention that I think a lot of people will be clamouring for a potential build to CAP10 that will allow it to check most of the Dragons at once. Group F is where most of them would probably go otherwise - in essence, the formidable sweepers with average or below-par Speed, as well as bulk, but also the ability to boost their Speed. Group G is concerned with the fast, often mixed or with mix potential, sweepers, who are also usually defensively frail, and difficult to wall due to movepool and offensive prowess. Lastly, Group H, those oddball Baton Passers that nobody really uses. If we look at the sort of EV investment that would probably be required to reliably take on the members of each 'area' (HP not taken into account; assumed to be a part of defences):

A - Medium Def & SDef, Low Atk & SAtk
B - High Atk & SAtk, Low Def & SDef
C - Medium Def & SDef, High Atk & SAtk
D - High Def & SDef, Medium Atk & SAtk
E - High Def & SDef, High Atk & SAtk
F - High Def & SDef, High Atk & SAtk
G - High Def & SDef, Medium Atk & SAtk
H - ???

Even here, there is very little chance of creating a typing, even with ability and stats taken for granted, that can offer us a reliable way to check every Pokemon, using a different combination of EVs - the stats required are simply at opposite ends of the earth. As it is, I cannot see how this will work without a revolutionary idea (for which I have none) - beyond Multitype, there seems to be no way to allow it to counter everything with a set, but not with just one set.

If there were an ability created that meant that the stats gained by EVs doubled, or something along those lines, allowing for greater stat diversity, then perhaps the operation along these lines would be feasible, but that would mean that there would be no in-battle effect, which seriously dents CAP10's viability in competitive play. Well, that's all I have to say.

 

[Sushidog]

bugmaniacbob, you are my hero. Please marry me. |:
I really like your idea of "grouping" OU presences together, it's absurdly helpful.

 

[Staraptor Call]

As Bugmaniacbob said, CAP10 should be customizable to deal with certain groups of Pokemon, not with individual Pokemon. That way, CAP10 would not become a gimmick that can only counter a few Pokemon at a time, and instead can serve a role on a team that does not waste a team slot just to deal with one or two Pokemon. CAP10 should be able to deal with certain categories but be vulnerable to others. For example, one set might be able to deal with all Bulky Grounds, but get set up on by Dragon-type Sweepers. Another set might be able to counter all Dragon-type sweepers, but get set up on by Steels. This would let the team-builder plug a hole in their team, but not without a price; CAP10 would not be able to counter too much with just one set.

The way to make CAP10 sufficiently versatile is definitely with Multitype. Having either a Physically Defensive or Specially Defensive moveset, or even having either a Physically Defensive and Specially Defensive ability, will not be enough to counter everything if there is some type that always is Super Effective. If CAP10 has a type that is always hit for Super Effective damage by certain attacks, then CAP10 will fail its concept because it will not be able to serve as a utility counter to a Pokemon with that attacking type. The only real way to fulfill the concept without Multitype is by giving CAP10 the Ghost/Dark typing, because then there would be no type that would always pose a problem for CAP10.

 

[Akusu]

• To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats? I think one thing that's been missing from the discussion is what happens when the opponent switches out? Is this pokemon just supposed to force them out (phaze), or do we want to make sure it nails that weakness. Most of what has been discussed is a pokemon that boosts itself somehow.
  
• Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively? Offensively, definitely. I think this pokemon would benefit by being able to break walls that the other pokemon on the team can't touch, or threaten to one-shot pokemon that the other pokemon can't outrun. I see this as having access to *all* the priority attack moves, and maybe wall-breaking moves such as taunt, haze and super fang.
  
• What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat? Keeping my last comments in mind, it wouldn't have to be particularly defensively strong, just strong enough to take a few hits from the walls it's trying to break. I like the idea of using 2 of Solid Rock, Huge Power or Multitype to manipulate its weaknesses and strengths to allow any specific pokemon to be countered.
  
• Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter? Well, the first choice you'll have is wall-breaker, or offensive threat phazer. The main problem will be that within those categories, the move pool is going to allow you to at least somewhat threaten other, completely unrelated pokemon. For example, if you breed a huge power CAP10 with ice shards as your DD Mence counter, you will also have 3 more moveslots, allowing you to potentially thunderpunch/bolt that annoying Gyarados, fire punch scizors, or Extremespeed anything else frail. I think, ignoring the frail pokemon, it should be able to OHKO what it's countering with the appropriate move, but need 2 or three hits to take out anything that's not similar.

I have to say this has the potential to be a pokemon full of mind games, since you will almost always be able to fake out any large threat by bringing it out as a counter, even if you're not specced for it. Not that that would work in 2/3 matches though hehe.

 

[Deck Knight]

To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats? Should it be able to wall everything they use, or should it just be able to take hits well enough to be able to force them out with an attack or status?

Most of this is covered via movepool. Basically this pokemon needs to be able to switch in and threaten whatever it's supposed to be countering. First it has to switch in, then it has to be able to retaliate. Porygon2 is the Base model for this. My outlook is to enhance Porygon2's capabilities and rid it of some of the things that hinder its effectiveness. I forsee this using primarily non-STAB moves to address big threats with large 4x weaknesses (Mence/Gyara/Scizor/Tran/Tar) and by proxy addressing whatever else those attacks would hit (IBeam/Tbolt/Flamethrower/Earthquake/Focus Punch).

Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively? Could this also be customized per threat by the user?

This needs to be customizable to the greatest extent possible. Some threats like Mence require you to be able to take their attack before you can mount a counteroffensive. Alternatively you could attempt to outspeed it with say a Scarf mon and KO it before it moves. The former option provides more versatility against other foes.

What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat? Should it be a primarily defensive Pokemon, offensive or balanced between the two?

Balanced stats are neccesary. UnSTABbed movepool is going to be the key to success, so offensive impotency is not an option. Similarly, it must have servicable defenses. I'd even go so far as to say we clone and tweak your standard Fairy mon (Mew/Celebi/Manafi/Jirachi).

Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter? If the opponent doesn’t carry the threat that a particular CAP10 was customized to counter, will it become dead weight during that battle?

Depends on what you're trying to counter. Some mons weaknesses simply overlap. Ice Beam for Mence wil hit Flygon and Latias too. Flamethrower hits Scizor and Groos and Jirachi. In either case if you don't have an applicable coverage move you're going to be stuck with STAB.

Speaking of STAB, the reason I don't think it will do much is because this pokemon needs a fairly good defensive type. First priorities in my mind are immunities and neutralities. Many of the great offensive types lack immunities and have particularly bad weaknesses. I would want a typing that minimizes weaknesses while providing several immunities and at least one useful resistance. Ghost/Dark isn't it by the way, there's a reason Spiritomb is UU, only having resistance to Poison is a raw deal even if you have "no weak."

Trace is another element of this thought. If you already have a good core set of immunities, you can use Trace to provide another one. You could theoretically switch in and be immune to 3 or 4 types. Pokemon with those attacks are now largely powerless to stop you regardless of your set. Porygon2 already displays the potential here, I envision this as simply taking that concept to its logical conclusion.

 

[Oddish On Fire]

The current worry appears to be that we cannot have a Pokemon who can be tailored to defeat offensive Pokemon while also being able to be changed in order to defeat offensive Pokemon. What we would need is a Pokemon with both incredibe defensive stats and incredible offensive stats. This basically ensures that our CAPmon will be overpowered and just end up another bulky tank. So, why not use an ability split?

We could have two ablities, ability y and ablity x. Ability x could multiply its defensive stats by a set number, and ablity y could multiply its offensive stats by a set number.

Hope this was okay to post in Concept Assessment. It might be too early to propose any abilities. I just thought it related to helping the development of the concept.

 

[familyguyman]

Generally, when people say "weak to Ground-type" for example, they mean "takes super effective damage from Ground-type moves".



If you send it in against Scizor, it's obviously going to be a Scizor counter. It may or may not also be a Gyarados counter. Odds are, it probably won't be a Latias counter or a Rotom-H counter, so send in one of those two pokemon.

My point was that psychological warfare can stem from faking out who you counter. If I see CAP10 switch in to my Scizor, do I assume it's a Scizor counter and switch out to, say, Heatran? Maybe CAP10 is a Heatran counter instead. Multitype obviously makes this easy but I feel it is unnecessary.

I'm trying not to post-whore here, but this, I have to say something to.



MORE specific? This thing is meant to be able to stop virtually any [reasonable] threat. Celebi and Jirachi can only do so much due to their types and movepool. CAP 10 would be a more general, customizable type of Jirachi and Celebi. And it would probably have more concentrated stats.

Jirachi and Celebi can do a lot of things fairly well and use their unpredictability to really shine. I feel CAP10 should follow this but have slightly more specific move sets and stat spread, that's all.

No, because giving it a set type immediately hinders it as it will then always have something it will be weak to. You can't attempt to stop everything with only two shields. Also, Scizor and Gyarados actually have one or two similar counters anyway. It would only go too far if it was impossible to tell what type it was.

There are many many ways around weaknesses. Levitate + Electric, Ghost/Dark, Dark/Poison + Levitate, Steel/Bug + Flash Fire, even Water/Flying + Volt Absorb all work to dodge almost all weaknesses. Even so, there are ways around set typing too, like Color Change or Conversion/2 or Forecast.



It is physically impossible to hard counter everything with one Pokémon. Colossoil, Infernape, etc. all don't even have hard counters themselves. I think settling for Soft Countering as much as we can is a better route.

I agree with you here

Salamence and Gyarados are both in the same boat when it comes to countering, actually due to their similar tactics. Scizor is far from a counter to Salamence OR Latias for fear of a Fire move and it can hardly to much to Latias outside of U-Turn while Salamence intimidates it.

Scizor, I meant as a soft counter. Fear of fire is a given but the ability to sponge a dragon attack and BP means Scizor works to a degree.

I think Multitype is the way ahead for this concept. In terms of stats, while reasonable Speed would be needed, I think we should take priority (no pun intended) in Defense, otherwise the idea of being able to switch into virtually anything and then strike back is rendered pointless.
Having good offense doesn't seem necessary to me either, as if we don't want this to become a dead weight, then simply spreading status around the foe's team is still a good option, even if they don't have your threat, while if you had packed a specific move to stop that threat, you could be walled easily.

I agree Multitype would make sense with this concept, I just think it's a cop out and I don't want to go down that route until we eliminate the other options entirely. Otherwise, I agree with you.

 

[GMLW]

To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats? Should it be able to wall everything they use, or should it just be able to take hits well enough to be able to force them out with an attack or status?

The Pokemon should be able to take the hit of what it was tailored to counter and be able to attack it back. It shouldn't be able to wall what it was made to, it should be able to take a few hits and hit it back.

Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively? Could this also be customized per threat by the user?

I think it should be very balanced, but mostly offensive so it can hit the Pokemon back.

What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat? Should it be a primarily defensive Pokemon, offensive or balanced between the two?

Like I said before, I think it should be mostly balanced, but with some bias on offensive. This way, it should be able to take the hit when it switches in, and nail it with a powerful attack. However, it shouldn't be able to wall the Pokemon, just be able to take a few hits.

Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter? If the opponent doesn’t carry the threat that a particular CAP10 was customized to counter, will it become dead weight during that battle?

It shouldn't be dead weight if the Pokemon it was made to counter wasn't on the opponents team. It should just be not as useful. For example, when someone uses Porygon2, they are assuming that the opponent has a Salamence, Gyarados, Heatran, etc., on their team. However, if they don't Porygon2 is still a decent Pokemon, since it is still bulky, and has good Special Attack to abuse BoltBeam coverage with.

 

[Gir!]

First of all, I wanna applaud(more like worship) BmB effort, dividing the metagame in sections was just genious and gave me an idea that I consider would fill the criterio for this concept, although it would be probably really tough and that is...making a CaP with various formes, focusing on dealing with certain kinds of threats differntly, kinda like a watered down Deoxys, with all of them sharing the same movepool/abilities and typing, but with substantial differences in stats that make them better or worse at facing those threats

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

• To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats Should it be able to wall everything they use, or should it just be able to take hits well enough to be able to force them out with an attack or status?

That depends on the Pokemon it's facing. Some Pokemon just will NOT budge no matter how little damage they do since they reckon they have a chance to PP stall, so forcing them out will make them think otherwise. Others won't budge if they reckon they can take the hit and KO back, and that's where walling comes in. But CAP10 should lean towards forcing stuff out, since the metagame's currently all about trying to OHKO the enemy before it can even move.

• Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively? Could this also be customized per threat by the user?

You can't wall stuff forever if you have even one big gaping weakness, as your opponent WILL take advantage of it. For example, Close Combat makes mince-meat of Blissey when used by the likes of LO Infernape, and Arghonaut can't stand up to the power of LO Staraptor's Brave Bird. This is why Ghost/Dark is a good typing for CAP10, it HAS no weaknesses for such attacks to prey on. But they'll likely still hit hard regardless, so a mix of both offense and defense will be necessary.

• What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat? Should it be a primarily defensive Pokemon, offensive or balanced between the two?

Definite mix. You need defenses so then no Draco Meteors come out of nowhere and KO you, but you also need power in order to actually threaten the big game (Mence, Heatran, Agiligross, stuff like that). Speed should be the last thing on anyone's mind IMO. This leaves no room to improve the other stats. The lack of speed will probably gear this guy towards defense though, so I'm fine with the more defensive spreads.

• Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter? If the opponent doesn’t carry the threat that a particular CAP10 was customized to counter, will it become dead weight during that battle?

We should try to limit that as little as possible without making it broken. That way, we can ensure that it isn't entirely dead weight in case we realize our enemy didn't actually carry the Pokemon CAP10 was specifically designed by us to counter. If it has to be limited then so be it, but remember: As little as possible.

EDIT:

My point was that psychological warfare can stem from faking out who you counter. If I see CAP10 switch in to my Scizor, do I assume it's a Scizor counter and switch out to, say, Heatran? Maybe CAP10 is a Heatran counter instead.

If I may add on to this, this guy could just as easily counter both Scizor AND Heatran. Say it knows Flamethrower and Earth Power, and say it switches into Scizor, and his owner then switches to Heatran. CAP10's owner could either have predicted that the whole time and used Earth Power OR it could not mind the increased power of Heatran's Fire Blast and OHKO regardless. Win, win situation right there, unless Mence comes in to the picture and CAP10 doesn't know any SE move against it

 

[viol and bass]

First of all, I wanna applaud(more like worship) BmB effort, dividing the metagame in sections was just genious and gave me an idea that I consider would fill the criterio for this concept, although it would be probably really tough and that is...making a CaP with various formes, focusing on dealing with certain kinds of threats differntly, kinda like a watered down Deoxys, with all of them sharing the same movepool/abilities and typing, but with substantial differences in stats that make them better or worse at facing those threats

I like this idea, but I don't know the answer to this question so I'll ask it:

Is a CAP pokémon allowed to have multiple formes?

I'm sure this has come up in the past but I don't know the answer.

 

[hydrolphin]

Most of this is covered via movepool. Basically this pokemon needs to be able to switch in and threaten whatever it's supposed to be countering. First it has to switch in, then it has to be able to retaliate. Porygon2 is the Base model for this. My outlook is to enhance Porygon2's capabilities and rid it of some of the things that hinder its effectiveness. I forsee this using primarily non-STAB moves to address big threats with large 4x weaknesses (Mence/Gyara/Scizor/Tran/Tar) and by proxy addressing whatever else those attacks would hit (IBeam/Tbolt/Flamethrower/Earthquake/Focus Punch).

DKs point on P2 is essentially what I want to say. P2 is an amazing Pokemon due to its movepool and Trace, but its less than amazing defenses keep it from being seen more. P2 is clunky to use, stops your momentum somewhat, and is dead weight against some teams. Porygon2 is a great blueprint for what CAP10 will look like eventually, with most of P2's faults fixed. Actually, a fusion of Porygon2's and Bronzong's respective niches sounds like the best way to go about this: Porygon2's ability to shut down major threats + Bronzong's ability to switch in to 95% of pokemon and absorb a few hits.

I think if you try to make it too customizable like everyone is saying, we'll end up with another one of those "uncounterable" pokemon like Salamence and Lucario. Its obviously not possible to counter everyting with one pokemon, but pokemon like P2 and Bronzong make me think we could learn more by making a near universal switch-in (something we have never gotten close to in CAP, and is only done by Zong, P2 and maybe Rotom-A or Pert) then a pokemon that tries to have near unlimited options (Colossoil, Stratagem, Syclant in CAP, and dozens of other OUs like Luke, Mence, T-Tar, etc.)

 

[Maci12]

To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats?

The concept's name is Utility Counter, and so it should address threats to the extent of a counter. It should be able to switch in to a pokemon's attacks and eliminate it, unless the pokemon is running a more obscure set meant to eliminate its counters (think Bait Latias, Mystic Gengar, or Lure Tran). CAP 10 will have to have enough versatility to accomplish the task of countering as many threats as possible, while still having a within reason.

Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively?

I think that CAP 10 needs to address them in a balanced manor; it needs to have enough defensive capability to switch into the threat its tailored to eliminate and still have a fair amount of health, and it also needs to have enough offensive prowess to take the target pokemon out quickly. If CAP 10 is given the movepool it would need to counter big threats in the metagame, its Offense would need to be kept within reason so that it doesn't become a powerhouse of its own.

What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat?

This CAP is going to need a high BST to accomplish its goals. High defenses are important to switching in, as the CAP is going to need to deal with high powered assaults as it comes in. The next most important thing is Speed. This would ideally be over 100 but not above 115; a great many threats sit at 100, so outspeeding them is important. A speed possibly exceeding 110 would be helpful because a few very powerful threats (Latias, Gengar) sit there. With these stats above average, the attacking stats would need to be sub-par but usable enough to deal with the threats it must beat.

Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter?

Others have said it, but I'll restate it. It's not really something that can be theoried accurately, but I think that CAP 10 should very effectively deal with the threat is tailored to defeat. If it is tailored to defeat Salamence, it will naturally do well against Dragonite, because they are similar, but beyond countering similar pokemon, I'd rather that CAP 10 deal with the one threat its tailored to as opposed to it being a general counter.

 

[Bucky]

To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats? I think that the Pokemon should be able to sponge hits well, but at the same time have a reliable enough attack or special attack stat to be able to effectively counter its opponent. I don't think that this Pokemon's purpose should be walling the other's team, but if it is going to counter certain Pokemon, it will need to have reliable and sturdy defenses.

Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively? I think that this should be customizable by the user, that way it can fully serve its purpose to counter the biggest threat or weakness of the user's team.

What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat? The stats most definately need to be balanced. That way the user can decide whether he/she wants to take an offensive or defensive approach towards effectively countering his/her biggest threat.

Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter? The Pokemon should not be 100% limited, but at the same time cannot be omnipotent. Its movepool needs to be varied enough so that it can avoid becomming dead-weight if the user plays his/her cards right.

I wonder though, what kind of typing would a Pokemon like this have? I think it'd be oh so fascinating to see a reverse Keckleon type of thing going on, but I dunno.

 

[Bucky]

The current worry appears to be that we cannot have a Pokemon who can be tailored to defeat offensive Pokemon while also being able to be changed in order to defeat offensive Pokemon. What we would need is a Pokemon with both incredibe defensive stats and incredible offensive stats. This basically ensures that our CAPmon will be overpowered and just end up another bulky tank. So, why not use an ability split?

We could have two ablities, ability y and ablity x. Ability x could multiply its defensive stats by a set number, and ablity y could multiply its offensive stats by a set number.

Hope this was okay to post in Concept Assessment. It might be too early to propose any abilities. I just thought it related to helping the development of the concept.

I think that's a pretty good idea actually. That way it ensures that the Pokemon will not be some kind of Uber with max defense and attack stats since most people are saying that attack and defense need to be fairly high for it to counter certain threats. But I'm not sure if that's allowed here either heheheh.

 

[Vaz]

To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats?

This pokemon should be able to be portrayed in many different movesets and playstyles to fit just about any team which is in need of this pokemon. It should be able to counter many pokemon the try to set up on your team and do things you cannot stop them from doing.

Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively?

This pokemon should be a bit of both, like bulky offense but leaning towards the defensive side. It does not have to have mediocre speed because of this though.

What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat?

This pokemon should have enough Defensive/HP stats to be able to take on more than a few hits from an opponent with high attacking or +attack/special attack. It should have some physical offense also so it can effectively KO the opponent after several hits.

Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter?

Well, it should have its "proposed" counter with its varied sets that defeat other pokemon, but this will have to leave it open to another weakness. There is no pokemon that can check all other pokemon, a pokemon has to have some sort of weakness somewhere.
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[Seizen]

To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats?

If it's a Utility Counter, it needs to hold its niche in the metagame. Which means it needs to counter things people utilise the most, so DD-Dragons, Choice Sweepers and Walls. Because of this, it needs to be able to take solid hits when switching in, while at the same time be able to attack or KO them as well.

Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively?

It honestly depends on the Pokemon it would end up facing, but I'd say in general it should be more defensive. Similar to what hydrolphin put forward, if we base it more around being able to switch in and take hits before choosing a moveset, we're more likely to pull it off.

What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat?

Stat-wise, it needs to be fairly balanced across the board, with probably some average stats there. Otherwise, it cannot either damage or take damage properly, something we should avoid. However, if it gets high HP with above average Def. and SpDef., then it should be able to absorb most hits. It would need fairly playable Atk and SpAtk. to be able to hit back, but the Speed is debatable. We could give it average speed, or make it slower while giving it moves to avoid or use that properly, such as Mach Punch and Aqua Tail, on one hand, or Trick Room and Gyro Ball on the other.

Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter?

That depends. I don't want to have a Gyarados-counter which also counters Metagross or Tyranitar, as they're completely different in both typing as well as how you play them. That said, a Metagross-counter should be able to become a Jirachi-counter, albeit with a little difficulty. Similarly, a generalised BulkRock-counter should be able to counter some BulkSteel-mon as well.
On a whole, if it's designed to counter a specific threat, such as Salamence, it will probably find it easier to counter a different threat, such as a Kingdra; whereas if it's designed to counter a DD-Dragon on the whole, it'll find it harder to counter another threat, such as a SubSeeder.

 

[Aqueos]

To what extent should this pokemon be addressing threats? It should be tailorable to stop any pokemon. Not rock hard counter just counter.
Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively? This pokemon should have enough defense to take hits and enoouh offense to score kos. Somewhere in the middle. A good defensive typing would help.

What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat? It'll need enough speed and attack to ko and enough defense to take hits. Maybe all the stats should be 100ish.

Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter? If it is not designed to cover a specific pokemon it should have issues countering it.

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

The current worry appears to be that we cannot have a Pokemon who can be tailored to defeat offensive Pokemon while also being able to be changed in order to defeat offensive Pokemon. What we would need is a Pokemon with both incredibe defensive stats and incredible offensive stats. This basically ensures that our CAPmon will be overpowered and just end up another bulky tank. So, why not use an ability split?

We could have two ablities, ability y and ablity x. Ability x could multiply its defensive stats by a set number, and ablity y could multiply its offensive stats by a set number.

Hope this was okay to post in Concept Assessment. It might be too early to propose any abilities. I just thought it related to helping the development of the concept.

I think that's a pretty good idea actually. That way it ensures that the Pokemon will not be some kind of Uber with max defense and attack stats since most people are saying that attack and defense need to be fairly high for it to counter certain threats. But I'm not sure if that's allowed here either heheheh.

This is pretty much exactly my suggestion from page 1.

Those of you who favor Multitype: would you oppose such a setup, with one offensive ability and one defensive ability? This would allow balanced stats, more interesting default typing, and more flexibility in item selection. Multitype could even be one of the options, as Akusu points out.