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CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 1 - Concept Poll 2
- Thread starter beej
- Start date
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Not really. As DK pointed out, most Dragon-types can run a Ground- or Fire-type move (or even both) that allows them to beat Steel-types (which are pretty much the only things in the way of Dragon-types). Sure, Metagross can eat Outrage all day, but what if your opponent has Fire Blast? Then you're toast (no pun intended).
I like reachzero's concept, but I think that Deck Knight's will help decentralize the metagame, which is something players have been complaining about. Voted for Dragons (No) Be Here.
reachzero brings up a good point, though. If Latias is voted Uber, Salamence will be the only extremely common Dragon-type. However, I think that with three other Dragons in OU (Kingdra, Dragonite, Flygon), it still justifies Deck Knight's concept.
Voted Dragons [No] Be Here. I think this will be a far more interesting and informative change to the metagame than reachzero's concept: although that certainly has its merits, I would prefer a more definite alteration for us to observe. From a scientific, educational point of view, I'm not convinced of the usefulness of something so abstract as Utility Counter, as without a definite goal it will be very difficult for the project to remain cohesive and targeted, and we risk ending up with a mishmash of aspects- each added to count a seperate threat but collectively failing to do anything properly or affect the metagame in an interesting way.
I voted for Dragons [No] Be Here, because I'm tired of having to run steels just to deal with dragons.
If you send it in on Salamence, it's pretty obvious you tailored it to counter Salamence. This would mean it would have an Ice-type move, presumably an Electric-type move as well because of the BoltBeam coverage, and third move for STAB if the CAP is not Electric-type, Ice-type or has a crappy STAB like Poison.
Utility Counter is a hell of a lot more interesting and it can teach us a lot more. I envision DNBH as just being a pokemon with an ability that makes it immune to dragon moves and/or somehow gives it a boost when it's hit by a dragon moves. The only thing it can possibly teach us is whether the particular variant of dragon-stopping pokémon was effective at stopping dragons. Which doesn't teach us anything about the OU metagame. For instance, Deck Knight's question "Is it even possible to stop Dragons, or are their stats/coverage too overwhelming?" is easily answerable. Yes, it is. Give a pokémon extremely high offensive and defensive stats, a steel typing and an ice move. It will effectively stop dragons.
Reach's questions actually have substance.
Reach's questions actually have substance.
Naturally I voted for the home team, Dragons [No] Be Here
Just a quick note reachzero, even if Latias gets bumped to Uber in Supsect Test 3-4, CAP10 will be addressing the current metagame, which as presented includes Mence, Latias, Kingdra, and Flygon (w. Dragonite to some extent). Our playtesting will probably be over long before that decision comes down. Even if it does, that makes Mence and Flygon tied for the fastest Dragon in OU and both can obliterate each other.
I actually like reach's Utility Counter concept, but I have difficulty envisioning a pokemon that could do it. The Pokemon that I think comes closest right now is Blissey, silly as that sounds. CounterBliss makes non-stat-upping physical attackers pay, Blissey is otherwise a full stop to special attackers. Need a bulwark against status? Run Aromatherapy. Wish support? Whatevs. Kill standard Scizor? Pump up Speed about 100 EVs, give some SA, and Fire Blast the bugger.
Dragons [No] Be Here is specific. Technically I even specified it down to Dragon-type Moves. Even if we gave this the most absurd Dragon-locking ability (like 8 turn Dragon Move Field Lock), Mence, Kingdra, Latias, Dragonite, and Flygon would still be around. Kingdra in particular would just revert to relying on Water STAB and use RD to wait it out, Flygon can still SPAM EQ and might find more room for Stone Edge. Latias has a multitude of support sets where Dragon Pulse is just sort of thrown on there, etc. You aren't going to get rid of the Pokemon that easily, 10 Steel types in OU couldn't tamp them down. Ditto with Draggy, who has an underrated support movepool and lots of good coverage moves.
So there's no real restrictions on type. The Dragon Pokemon probably aren't going anywhere, but reducing their reliance on overpowered Dragon moves would open up a lot of possibilities. Say there were a Dragon Flash Fire that actually punished the mindless SPAMMing of Dragon moves. Their use would be more hesitant. Heatran does this excellently, limiting the Fire types in OU to Fire types that can deal with Heatran effectively. Not much else SPAMs Fire Blast either that can't follow with Earthquake or a Fighting Move. A speedy (115+ perhaps), offensive pokemon with Imprison and Dragon moves could accomplish the same thing. There's a lot of angles that could be explored that haven't even without resorting to a new ability.
Err, yeah. It's called Empoleon. And it breaks OU but still hasn't seemed to dent Dragon usage. Metagross has Ice Punch, yet that doesn't even make it to the standard set. We already have two pokemon I could cite that follow your criteria, yet the Dragon/Steel paradigm remains unaltered. Apparently even notoriously well-built starter pokemon and Base 600 mons couldn't do it. So exactly how "extreme" do the stats need to be before it qualifies for you? Never mind it has to have extreme offense and defense.
Just a quick note reachzero, even if Latias gets bumped to Uber in Supsect Test 3-4, CAP10 will be addressing the current metagame, which as presented includes Mence, Latias, Kingdra, and Flygon (w. Dragonite to some extent). Our playtesting will probably be over long before that decision comes down. Even if it does, that makes Mence and Flygon tied for the fastest Dragon in OU and both can obliterate each other.
I actually like reach's Utility Counter concept, but I have difficulty envisioning a pokemon that could do it. The Pokemon that I think comes closest right now is Blissey, silly as that sounds. CounterBliss makes non-stat-upping physical attackers pay, Blissey is otherwise a full stop to special attackers. Need a bulwark against status? Run Aromatherapy. Wish support? Whatevs. Kill standard Scizor? Pump up Speed about 100 EVs, give some SA, and Fire Blast the bugger.
Dragons [No] Be Here is specific. Technically I even specified it down to Dragon-type Moves. Even if we gave this the most absurd Dragon-locking ability (like 8 turn Dragon Move Field Lock), Mence, Kingdra, Latias, Dragonite, and Flygon would still be around. Kingdra in particular would just revert to relying on Water STAB and use RD to wait it out, Flygon can still SPAM EQ and might find more room for Stone Edge. Latias has a multitude of support sets where Dragon Pulse is just sort of thrown on there, etc. You aren't going to get rid of the Pokemon that easily, 10 Steel types in OU couldn't tamp them down. Ditto with Draggy, who has an underrated support movepool and lots of good coverage moves.
So there's no real restrictions on type. The Dragon Pokemon probably aren't going anywhere, but reducing their reliance on overpowered Dragon moves would open up a lot of possibilities. Say there were a Dragon Flash Fire that actually punished the mindless SPAMMing of Dragon moves. Their use would be more hesitant. Heatran does this excellently, limiting the Fire types in OU to Fire types that can deal with Heatran effectively. Not much else SPAMs Fire Blast either that can't follow with Earthquake or a Fighting Move. A speedy (115+ perhaps), offensive pokemon with Imprison and Dragon moves could accomplish the same thing. There's a lot of angles that could be explored that haven't even without resorting to a new ability.
PurpurealSunshine said:
Err, yeah. It's called Empoleon. And it breaks OU but still hasn't seemed to dent Dragon usage. Metagross has Ice Punch, yet that doesn't even make it to the standard set. We already have two pokemon I could cite that follow your criteria, yet the Dragon/Steel paradigm remains unaltered. Apparently even notoriously well-built starter pokemon and Base 600 mons couldn't do it. So exactly how "extreme" do the stats need to be before it qualifies for you? Never mind it has to have extreme offense and defense.
Voted for Dragon [No] Be Here.
I would simply like to see which aspects of Dragons are overpowered; their moves, their stats, their movepools, or a combination of all of these and whether or not their hindrances created by CAP10 will allow a Steel-infested, defensive-oriented metagame to surge. Utility Counter is an intriguing concept, but I'm just more interested in what the absence or, at the least, the lack of focus of Dragons would affect the metagame, whether it be positive or negative.
I would simply like to see which aspects of Dragons are overpowered; their moves, their stats, their movepools, or a combination of all of these and whether or not their hindrances created by CAP10 will allow a Steel-infested, defensive-oriented metagame to surge. Utility Counter is an intriguing concept, but I'm just more interested in what the absence or, at the least, the lack of focus of Dragons would affect the metagame, whether it be positive or negative.
Your question was whether or not it is possible. My point is that it is. While Empoleon's offensive and defensive stats are quite good it would really be pushing it to say they're extremely high. Metagross probably comes closer but certainly has some flaws. Such as being rather slow. Almost any non-choiced dragon carries another move that can take it out before it can use Ice Punch. Salamence has Earthquake/Fire Blast, Flygon has Earthquake, etc. My point is that either your question has unstated limits or it's extremely easy to answer.
Max every stat. If it easily deals with the dragons, which my assumption is that it would, the answer to your question is "yes".
I completely agree, and I also want to see what pokemon might come to the Metagame if dragons are not so frequent. Dragon [No] Be Here
If it's so easy to answer, how come no one in standard OU has managed to break the paradigm then? With all the battlers we have it would seem such an easy question would have been answered already. Heck, Mamoswine can OHKO any Dragon with CB Ice Shard, yet it isn't even high OU. Ice/Steel (allowing it to switch into Draco Meteor) would just make it FB (and EQ) bait. Get the theorymon out of here please. We have 10 Steel types in OU, most of them have Ice or Dragon attacks, or some other high BP means (Zong Gyro Ball, Scizor Tech CB Bullet Punch) to attack.
You can at best max any two given stats, so your argument is pretty weak to begin with. Never mind there is no "Max Offensive" and "Max Defensive" stat. Being our resident stat-whore I know pretty well what it takes to get theoretical KOs on standard sets. It's amazingly hard to do so without constructing an Uber. Why do you think most of the stat spreads I've even submitted have high HP/mid defenses? Because that optimizes defensive ability with the smallest BST possible.
Even if it were "easy to answer," the product in question clearly doesn't exist of yet.
I voted Dragons [No] Be Here.
The Utility Counter is a good idea, but I don't see how it's possible to specifically counter any one or two threats in the standard metagame. The Pokemon would have to have a pretty large movepool, which would end up breaking the idea because then it could potentially counter more. The only way I could see this happening is if the Pokemon's base stats were pretty mediocre but were able to be bumped pretty high using EV's.
As for Dragons [No] Be Here, I feel that Dragons are much too powerful, and are given a movepool good enough to beat its only counters. I'd really like to see something that can truly counter Dragon-types.
The Utility Counter is a good idea, but I don't see how it's possible to specifically counter any one or two threats in the standard metagame. The Pokemon would have to have a pretty large movepool, which would end up breaking the idea because then it could potentially counter more. The only way I could see this happening is if the Pokemon's base stats were pretty mediocre but were able to be bumped pretty high using EV's.
As for Dragons [No] Be Here, I feel that Dragons are much too powerful, and are given a movepool good enough to beat its only counters. I'd really like to see something that can truly counter Dragon-types.
All I keep hearing in support of the Utility Counter is "It could be anything!". I don't think that is quite what Reach was looking for nor do I think that a pokemon designed as a Utility Counter could effectively counter dragons the way that Deck Knight's submission suggests. They are different ideas all-together and you will not successfully accomplish both. Currently you not only almost have to have a steel type or two but more often than not a dragon of your own to threaten the opponent's dragon(s).
If you just want a counter to play mind games with grab a standard poke and give it a non-standard moveset so I don't see any benefit from creating the utility-mon. That is assuming that an effective one could even be created as it HAS to have limitations to keep from being broken and that in itself will restrict what this pokemon could counter. To put it simply, I feel like Utility Counter is too broad an idea and asking too much of one pokemon.
If you just want a counter to play mind games with grab a standard poke and give it a non-standard moveset so I don't see any benefit from creating the utility-mon. That is assuming that an effective one could even be created as it HAS to have limitations to keep from being broken and that in itself will restrict what this pokemon could counter. To put it simply, I feel like Utility Counter is too broad an idea and asking too much of one pokemon.
I voted for Utility Counter. The Utility Counter concept would likely end up making "gimmicky" sets more common, and would allow for new mind games as to what set the user was running. It would let us explore the role of witholding information from the opponent, since a Pokemon that could counter anything would not reveal what kind of team the CAP10 user was running. Unusual forms of the Utility Counter would abound, and that would make the metagame less centralized and more based on how well-built ones team is. Also, we could have our cake and eat it too; the Utility Counter could be a Pokemon that could, with a certain set, counter Dragons.
I voted Utility Counter for the main reason of versatility. These two concepts are geared towards countering, or at least responding to given threats in the metagame. However, compared to a more specialized niche in the form of Dragons No Be Here, I chose Utility Counter to deal with Dragons to an extent as well as other potent threats in the metagame (that are not dragons, can you believe that???). If you think a simple anti-pokemon will fucking decentralize the metagame then you need to know a little more than that will be needed.
Centralizing-wise, I think Dragons No Be Here would be much more centralizing than Utility Counter in the sense that nearly every Dragon-weak team would have a quick answer to dragons there, instead of packing one response for latias, one for mence, and so forth. While you could argue that Utility Counter would do essentially the same thing, Utility Counter could not even dare to rival Dragons No Be Here's potency in countering Dragons. If done correctly, Utility Counter would be used in different variations for different teams, which is the main reason as to which Utility Counter makes the metagame less centralized.
Dragons No Be Here, while still a decent concept, is an "anti-pokemon" concept, similar to Arghonaut's Decentralizer concept back in CAP 6. And as we all learned, while Anti-Pokemon still fulfill their goals countering specific threats, it will fail to balance the metagame if it gets sucked into the core of centralized pokemon itself. Even with an Anti-Dragon concept, teams will not be discouraged to run Dragons for the mere fact that it is only one pokemon. A team can easily bypass this by changing their core around, using anti-anti-dragon pokemon in their cores so they can use dragons effectively. Utility Counter, however, does NOT face this problem because what it counters changes, centralizing pokemon or merely slight problems to certain teams.
Want to look at Anti-Pokemon as a whole? I believe we already know what it does to CAP. You'll get sucked into the circle, and it starts all over again. Dragons No Be Here's only hope to accomplish this task is exactly this -- beat dragons while beating those that would pair up with dragons as a result. Without the latter, this pokemon would simply be sucked into the never ending cycle of dragon + dragon "counter".
Centralizing-wise, I think Dragons No Be Here would be much more centralizing than Utility Counter in the sense that nearly every Dragon-weak team would have a quick answer to dragons there, instead of packing one response for latias, one for mence, and so forth. While you could argue that Utility Counter would do essentially the same thing, Utility Counter could not even dare to rival Dragons No Be Here's potency in countering Dragons. If done correctly, Utility Counter would be used in different variations for different teams, which is the main reason as to which Utility Counter makes the metagame less centralized.
Dragons No Be Here, while still a decent concept, is an "anti-pokemon" concept, similar to Arghonaut's Decentralizer concept back in CAP 6. And as we all learned, while Anti-Pokemon still fulfill their goals countering specific threats, it will fail to balance the metagame if it gets sucked into the core of centralized pokemon itself. Even with an Anti-Dragon concept, teams will not be discouraged to run Dragons for the mere fact that it is only one pokemon. A team can easily bypass this by changing their core around, using anti-anti-dragon pokemon in their cores so they can use dragons effectively. Utility Counter, however, does NOT face this problem because what it counters changes, centralizing pokemon or merely slight problems to certain teams.
Want to look at Anti-Pokemon as a whole? I believe we already know what it does to CAP. You'll get sucked into the circle, and it starts all over again. Dragons No Be Here's only hope to accomplish this task is exactly this -- beat dragons while beating those that would pair up with dragons as a result. Without the latter, this pokemon would simply be sucked into the never ending cycle of dragon + dragon "counter".
Utility Counter
I know Salamence and Latias are absolute terrors in OU, but getting a dedicated Dragon counter is going way overboard. Not only will its use be restricted to countering two Pokemon when they clearly overpower the vast majority of OU without question, but two other CAPs, Arghonaut and Revnankh, handle the role well enough to the point where it's redundant.
Another thing to consider is that the reason the Dragons are so popular is because they offer such useful resistances and coverage to things that you'd normally struggle to counter. Getting a counter to those counters is just moving us in circles. It's not going to offer a new perspective to the metagame, it'll just make people more paranoid about having a 100% answer to everything and further restrict the variety and team-building options we can afford now.
A utility counter is a good way to sidestep overcentralization. Having something that can counter any sweeper it wants, but not all of them, will bring way more balance to OU than another Dragon killer. We could definitely learn from something that promotes more solid team-building and allows us to be more free with the rest of our options, which I think is the OU metagame we've been looking for all along.
I know Salamence and Latias are absolute terrors in OU, but getting a dedicated Dragon counter is going way overboard. Not only will its use be restricted to countering two Pokemon when they clearly overpower the vast majority of OU without question, but two other CAPs, Arghonaut and Revnankh, handle the role well enough to the point where it's redundant.
Another thing to consider is that the reason the Dragons are so popular is because they offer such useful resistances and coverage to things that you'd normally struggle to counter. Getting a counter to those counters is just moving us in circles. It's not going to offer a new perspective to the metagame, it'll just make people more paranoid about having a 100% answer to everything and further restrict the variety and team-building options we can afford now.
A utility counter is a good way to sidestep overcentralization. Having something that can counter any sweeper it wants, but not all of them, will bring way more balance to OU than another Dragon killer. We could definitely learn from something that promotes more solid team-building and allows us to be more free with the rest of our options, which I think is the OU metagame we've been looking for all along.
I believe that Utility Counter is the concept that will give us more knowledge about the metagame than Dragons [No] Be Here.
We all know that Latias and Salamence are beastly sweepers in today's metagame, but to be honest, we really don't need a 100% counter to these threats, including the lesser common Flygon, Kingdra, and Dragonite. Also, it is very possible that Latias will be moved to Ubers once the suspect voting starts, meaning that Deck's concept is going to focus primarily on countering Salamence. But even then, Salamence is highly likely to get a suspect test (due to everyone complaining how more Uber it is than Latias) and may be voted to Ubers. That leaves us with Dragonite, Kingdra, and Flygon that this concept will be used for, but these three Dragons are much, much easier to combat than the aforementioned two.
We already have a couple of CAPs that can somewhat deal with Latias and Salamence. Revenankh is an excellent switch-in to Latias, thanks to its awesome Special Defense and ability to set up in its face. Kitsunoh and Colossoil handle Latias very well too. Salamence faces troubles against Arghonaut and can be revenge killed by Colossoil, Kitsunoh, Stratagem, or Syclant. I think we are going overboard with trying to find a dedicated Dragon counter, like Plus said. I think it will be quite redundant.
The only way this concept is going to be able to handle these Dragon-types is if it was a Steel-type and had a good secondary typing, or an ability that absorbs Dragon-type attacks. Having an ability to absorb Dragon-type attacks is really pushing it, though, and if this concept really relies on that kind of ability, I won't really enjoy it. I'm pretty sure that this concept is not going to be able to hinder every Dragon-type in the metagame, it's too hard.
The reason why I like Utility Counter is because it gives us a new way to build our teams. It's basically like that Pokemon that fits nicely into your last teamslot, countering a Pokemon that your team is quite weak to. The ability to counter almost every common Pokemon is also something that no other Pokemon can do, so it would offer a new niche in the metagame. I think we already know what countering Pokemon does to us already and the change that comes with it, but how about someone who can counter everything at different times? I mean, why can't you just use the Utility Counter to counter Salamence or Latias if they are such a big deal to you? For those of you who think Utility Counter is "impossible" to make, you should not doubt Beej and the CAP community's decision for including it and voting for it, respectively. We will find some way to make it happen, believe me.
We all know that Latias and Salamence are beastly sweepers in today's metagame, but to be honest, we really don't need a 100% counter to these threats, including the lesser common Flygon, Kingdra, and Dragonite. Also, it is very possible that Latias will be moved to Ubers once the suspect voting starts, meaning that Deck's concept is going to focus primarily on countering Salamence. But even then, Salamence is highly likely to get a suspect test (due to everyone complaining how more Uber it is than Latias) and may be voted to Ubers. That leaves us with Dragonite, Kingdra, and Flygon that this concept will be used for, but these three Dragons are much, much easier to combat than the aforementioned two.
We already have a couple of CAPs that can somewhat deal with Latias and Salamence. Revenankh is an excellent switch-in to Latias, thanks to its awesome Special Defense and ability to set up in its face. Kitsunoh and Colossoil handle Latias very well too. Salamence faces troubles against Arghonaut and can be revenge killed by Colossoil, Kitsunoh, Stratagem, or Syclant. I think we are going overboard with trying to find a dedicated Dragon counter, like Plus said. I think it will be quite redundant.
The only way this concept is going to be able to handle these Dragon-types is if it was a Steel-type and had a good secondary typing, or an ability that absorbs Dragon-type attacks. Having an ability to absorb Dragon-type attacks is really pushing it, though, and if this concept really relies on that kind of ability, I won't really enjoy it. I'm pretty sure that this concept is not going to be able to hinder every Dragon-type in the metagame, it's too hard.
The reason why I like Utility Counter is because it gives us a new way to build our teams. It's basically like that Pokemon that fits nicely into your last teamslot, countering a Pokemon that your team is quite weak to. The ability to counter almost every common Pokemon is also something that no other Pokemon can do, so it would offer a new niche in the metagame. I think we already know what countering Pokemon does to us already and the change that comes with it, but how about someone who can counter everything at different times? I mean, why can't you just use the Utility Counter to counter Salamence or Latias if they are such a big deal to you? For those of you who think Utility Counter is "impossible" to make, you should not doubt Beej and the CAP community's decision for including it and voting for it, respectively. We will find some way to make it happen, believe me.
I've voted for Dragons [No] Be Here.
As useful a concept as Utility Counter could be, the unfortunate thing is that it's impossible to accomplish. This is because the concept is about being a viable defense against anything, which is improbable to appear everytime, meaning each time the metagame changes or a new Pkmn becomes more playable when someone finds a new niche, you'd need to look into the most used charts every time. Then base your counter around that. Meanwhile, it's generally excepted that apart from counters which exclusively counter CAP Pkmn, this Pkmn will also gain an OU-standard counter.
Secondly, the closest thing to a Utility Counter in the metagame is Blissey, due to its' exceedingly high Special Defence and HP, as well as having a moveset promoting stalling nature. And therefore, a true Utility Counter would need to have near highest to highest placing in a Stat table, such as Blissey's HP, to truly have any use. Meanwhile, it couldn't have any properly exploited weaknesses, like last place in a certain stat. The moveset would need to be large to be able to counter any Pokemon... so we'll end up, from how it seems to me, looking at a Pkmn with the moveset of Mew while having stats resembling stronger Pkmn, such as Slaking.
The concept is broken on a whole due to the necessary precautions of refining it until it becomes OU, meaning one of the Pkmn in OU will be able to beat it easily, making it obsolete once everyone runs the one Pkmn it cannot counter.
Meanwhile, Dragons [No] Be Here is unfortunately only looking at the few Dragon Pkmn left in OU and CAP, so that leaves us Salamence, Flygon, Dragonite, Latias, Kingdra and CAP #8, Cyclohm. Which is a grand total of six Pkmn, so not a brilliant selection. All save one are weak to Ice moves, three being x4 weak, and everyone of them can be hit with Dragon moves from other Pkmn for a lot of damage.
Yet the real way to counter a Dragon is to use Ice Moves, which are only truly found on Water, Ice and Dragon Pokemon, or use a Dragon itself. Neither way is a truly effective way to counter a Dragon Pkmn, and because of this they generally mean you dedicate at least two Pkmn to have anti-Dragon moves, just for the sake of having a chance.
The concept narrows down what is needed, so we have a much more likely chance of actually creating a useful moveset, and while it seems restricted to Dragons, typing will allow us to branch into other fields, so it could counter Dragons via attacking fast, defending against all their attacks, status inflicting or indirect damage.
Therefore, due to concept inaccessability for one of the two options, my vote goes with Dragons [No] Be Here.
EDIT: There's another reason I dislike the general concept of Utility Counter: it means we need to look into countering our previous CAP-mon. Therefore, any of the existing CAP could gain a Pkmn which could counter it, which is something we need to avoid. While I admit that Cyclohm will suffer regardless, one for the sake of many is the only way to properly go through with CAP 10.
As useful a concept as Utility Counter could be, the unfortunate thing is that it's impossible to accomplish. This is because the concept is about being a viable defense against anything, which is improbable to appear everytime, meaning each time the metagame changes or a new Pkmn becomes more playable when someone finds a new niche, you'd need to look into the most used charts every time. Then base your counter around that. Meanwhile, it's generally excepted that apart from counters which exclusively counter CAP Pkmn, this Pkmn will also gain an OU-standard counter.
Secondly, the closest thing to a Utility Counter in the metagame is Blissey, due to its' exceedingly high Special Defence and HP, as well as having a moveset promoting stalling nature. And therefore, a true Utility Counter would need to have near highest to highest placing in a Stat table, such as Blissey's HP, to truly have any use. Meanwhile, it couldn't have any properly exploited weaknesses, like last place in a certain stat. The moveset would need to be large to be able to counter any Pokemon... so we'll end up, from how it seems to me, looking at a Pkmn with the moveset of Mew while having stats resembling stronger Pkmn, such as Slaking.
The concept is broken on a whole due to the necessary precautions of refining it until it becomes OU, meaning one of the Pkmn in OU will be able to beat it easily, making it obsolete once everyone runs the one Pkmn it cannot counter.
Meanwhile, Dragons [No] Be Here is unfortunately only looking at the few Dragon Pkmn left in OU and CAP, so that leaves us Salamence, Flygon, Dragonite, Latias, Kingdra and CAP #8, Cyclohm. Which is a grand total of six Pkmn, so not a brilliant selection. All save one are weak to Ice moves, three being x4 weak, and everyone of them can be hit with Dragon moves from other Pkmn for a lot of damage.
Yet the real way to counter a Dragon is to use Ice Moves, which are only truly found on Water, Ice and Dragon Pokemon, or use a Dragon itself. Neither way is a truly effective way to counter a Dragon Pkmn, and because of this they generally mean you dedicate at least two Pkmn to have anti-Dragon moves, just for the sake of having a chance.
The concept narrows down what is needed, so we have a much more likely chance of actually creating a useful moveset, and while it seems restricted to Dragons, typing will allow us to branch into other fields, so it could counter Dragons via attacking fast, defending against all their attacks, status inflicting or indirect damage.
Therefore, due to concept inaccessability for one of the two options, my vote goes with Dragons [No] Be Here.
EDIT: There's another reason I dislike the general concept of Utility Counter: it means we need to look into countering our previous CAP-mon. Therefore, any of the existing CAP could gain a Pkmn which could counter it, which is something we need to avoid. While I admit that Cyclohm will suffer regardless, one for the sake of many is the only way to properly go through with CAP 10.
I feel that the impact of Dragons and their few counters merits investigation. As such, Dragons (no) be here seems the best. If the metagame decentralizes, then the new one could prove quite interesting. And I would like to know if dragons really are that powerful, or if GameFreak just didn't put enough in to stop them.
That was the message I got as well - we're supposed to be breaking away from the Steel/Dragon dominated metagame and introducing a different way to play.
Perhaps you don't understand at all that CAP 10, and all other CAPs are built without taking any other CAPs into account. You should drop the previous CAP mentions of Colossoil and Cyclohm because they are not existent in OU. Please remember that CAPs are playtested for 2 weeks after every CAP, and that is the playtesting period in which we are looking at.
Countering is not the same as attacking either, a counter is merely a pokemon who can switch into nearly all the pokemon's moves and retaliate. Perhaps you would like to try switching in a Weavile on a Salamence Draco Meteor, and tell me that it was a counter. You don't counter shit with a move, the pokemon does the actual countering, while the attack is only one half of it.
Perhaps those of you who claim Utility Counter is nigh impossible to achieve can riddle me this -- how would we make a Dragons No Be Here with:
1) The ability to beat everything that matches up with Dragons and Dragons itself, otherwise finding itself sucked into the core of centralization (hey almost everything pairs with dragons go figure)
2) The lack of Steel or Dragon typing, and to not create a new ability
3) A full guarantee after the first bullet is complete, we won't have made an entirely new centralizing force in the metagame in the process, even moreso than dragons because it literally has to beat everything to fulfill it's concept 100%?
Honestly, I find those three things very hard to achieve without making up numerous abilities and moves, which would give you a simple conclusion -- No, you can't counter dragons going a different way using what you have already.
Excuse me for poll jumping a bit here, but note that in reachzero's initial concept he mentioned Multitype in his explanation. Perhaps that is a legitimate way to head for this concept should it be picked? Don't discount what others have put into these concepts already.
I voted for DNBH. Looking at what Objection has quoted above, it seems true that most, if not all Dragons have Earthquake and/or Fire Blast to fry the many Steels in OU that try to wall it, but since there is nothing else that resists Dragon, the 5 or so steels in OU are still the best bet we have to countering Dragons (that's what I perceived).
Decentralizing the metagame will allow a new one to emerge, one with more variety then a "Dragon + Steel + other random stuff your average team has" team, letting us explore different possibilities.
Decentralizing the metagame will allow a new one to emerge, one with more variety then a "Dragon + Steel + other random stuff your average team has" team, letting us explore different possibilities.
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