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Yes, but Starmie is faster and has higher SpA. So Krilowatt's Thunder hits harder, but what about Surf? The trade off is equal. Starmie can also use Hydro Pump, which Krilowatt won't be getting.
Starmie's bulk is considerably less than Krilowatt's, making it a poor choice for setting up the Rain
Kingdra is about as bulky as Starmie, and he sets up rain all the time. Setting up Rain is no easier with extra bulk.
Starmie has far more critical weaknesses for the job than Krilowatt (Krilowatt can team with Bronzong for setting up the rain and they perfectly cover each other's weaknesses)
If you are setting up rain, you don't want to be switching around. You want to take advantage of the precious turns of rain. Yeah Starmie dies easier. But that just allows you to revenge kill with a more dangerous rain sweeper like Kingdra or Kabutops.
Starmie does not have the offensive movepool of Krilowatt; because of this, Krilowatt can carry moves to take out common Rain Dance team threats. (Many Rain Dance supporters envy Krilowatt's Low Kick for TTar)
If you are running a Rain set, you only have one extra moveslot. RD/Surf/Thunder/Filler. If you use Low Kick you will be completely walled by Celebi and Roserade. And you will also have to split EVs. This will hurt Krilowatt in both defense and offense. Low Kick isn't much of an advantage if you have to become slower, less powerful on the special side, and/or less bulky. One of those will have to happen and most likely two off them. Low Kick is not really helpful in this regard, especially considering it leaves you useless against ground types.
For these reasons, Krilowatt is largely in a class of its own for Rain Dance supporting. Furthermore, because of the immediate and perfect weakness coverage of Bronzong and Krilowatt, they will be teamed together with enormous effectiveness in Rain Dance.
Krilowatt is not "in a class of its own." It has good but not great speed (easily outclassed, especially when one considers Swift Swim) meddling SpA and good STABs. It doesn't have the perks pokemon like Ludicolo, Kabutops, and Kingdra have for sweeping, and it is pretty average among pokemon who primarily set it up. They have other benefits to the team. Bronzong can set up Rocks. Crobat can taunt. Azelf can do both. What can Krilowatt do? Low Kick? While I do think Krilowatt would be a solid addition for some Rain teams, he won't be anywhere near as good as you say he will be-definately not broken at all.
Lastly, we already banned the screens and all other forms of team support. Rain Dance is no different. It supports the team with weather that they can abuse, doesn't utility counter anything, and we have absolutely no reason to include it and every reason to disallow it because of the nature of what it sets up, how easily it is abused, and how useful Krilowatt will be as a transition RD setup supporter on RD teams.
OMG! WE CAN'T LET THIS POKEMON DO ANYTHING THAT IS NOT SPECIFICALLY STATED IN THE CONCEPT /sarcasm. This mentality seems to come up over and over again, specifically in this CAP. We unneedly ban things because they don't fit the concept. Sometimes this is fine. Every CAP doesn't need every trick up its sleaves. But when you come across something like Rain Dance, which is incredibly mediocre on Krilowatt and people continue to rant about how it doesn't follow the concept, it drives me insane. Krilowatt will almost certainly get T-Wave. This doesn't help at countering much of anything. But its a useful move in case, you know, you want to use Krilowatt as a support pokemon. Rest is not going to help Krilowatt beat those Mixmences. But if you want a bulky water that can last a while, you could use a rest talk set.
Rain Dance is not a ground breaking move on Krilowatt. If it gets higher than 5% usage, I will be suprised. Do we really need to ban a move that is never going to see the light of day? And even if it does, will it be broken? The answer to those both of those questions is NO! Here's a third question. If we gave Krilowatt Rain Dance will it be any worse at its job? NO! So if its not broken, not bad for the pokemon as a hole, and is found on every non-fire or grass pokemon, then why do we want to ban it.
This is the wrong kind of thinking. Krill would not use Agility, because it doesn't actually help it. Therefore, it should be allowed as it is not competitive. It is up to the movepool creators to leave it out of the movepool if it is not broken. Remember, the moves are merely allowed, not required.
As for Baton Pass, you're suggesting the BPer uses a +2, passes to Krill, then Krill uses a +2, and finally sweeps. And your opponent is doing what in those 3 turns? Speed is easy to pass, anyways. Agility should be Allowed.
Agility has no point on Krillowatt as it only works as a sweep boosting move and therefore there is absolutely no point in adding it because that would go against the concept itself.
Hmm about the baton pass its not that difficult. Simply bring your baton passer in on something that doesn't threaten it, say togekiss, and boost on the switch. Unless your opponent has something that can OHKO your baton passer it will get off its baton pass. Now do you really expect anyone to use a ground move on togekiss. No of course not they will use a thunder or a rock type move which Krillowatt can wall for years. Then in order to not give you more time to set up your opponent switches and you agility thus giving you, or they try to attack probably with something slower than Krillowatt which either has stab on an earth attack which you can punish with STAB +2 surf or it doesnt have enough power to OHKO in which case you have easily reached plus two speed and plus two Sp. Atk. Considering how well Krillowatts typing can combine with common baton passers and its bulk it would be used often as a baton pass recipient going against the idea of a utility counter.
OMG! WE CAN'T LET THIS POKEMON DO ANYTHING THAT IS NOT SPECIFICALLY STATED IN THE CONCEPT /sarcasm. This mentality seems to come up over and over again, specifically in this CAP. We unneedly ban things because they don't fit the concept. Sometimes this is fine. Every CAP doesn't need every trick up its sleaves. But when you come across something like Rain Dance, which is incredibly mediocre on Krilowatt and people continue to rant about how it doesn't follow the concept, it drives me insane. Krilowatt will almost certainly get T-Wave. This doesn't help at countering much of anything. But its a useful move in case, you know, you want to use Krilowatt as a support pokemon. Rest is not going to help Krilowatt beat those Mixmences. But if you want a bulky water that can last a while, you could use a rest talk set.
Rain Dance is not a ground breaking move on Krilowatt. If it gets higher than 5% usage, I will be suprised. Do we really need to ban a move that is never going to see the light of day? And even if it does, will it be broken? The answer to those both of those questions is NO! Here's a third question. If we gave Krilowatt Rain Dance will it be any worse at its job? NO! So if its not broken, not bad for the pokemon as a hole, and is found on every non-fire or grass pokemon, then why do we want to ban it.
I see where you are coming from, but we've attempted to go a little bit outward of concepts, and its detracted far from the concept as we know it. The perfect example would be Kitsunoh, which was supposed to be the "Ultimate Scout". Honestly, we just made a good Ghost-type Physical Sweeper with great support options. U-Turn is barely touched on this CAP unless you run Scarf or Choice Kitsunoh, which isn't too common. If we just stick solely to the concept, we can actually learn about the metagame instead of just creating massive amounts of powerful sweepers or gigantic walls.
Krilowatt is supposed to be able to counter specific threats, but not be able to do much else. Sometimes, it needs to counter threats with the use of status, not just bulk and threatening attacks, which is why moves like Thunder Wave and Toxic will be useful. However, moves that will detract Krilowatt from its concept shouldn't be placed in its movepool to help stay on course. In the case of Rain Dance, Krilowatt has enough bulk to be a nice secondary Rain Dance set up and be able to come back in with ease and set up rain. This is why I feel that we should disallow Rain Dance, because Krilowatt can be very beneficial to Rain Dance teams- not as a counter to specific threats to said team, but as a rain supporter.
I see where you are coming from, but we've attempted to go a little bit outward of concepts, and its detracted far from the concept as we know it. The perfect example would be Kitsunoh, which was supposed to be the "Ultimate Scout". Honestly, we just made a good Ghost-type Physical Sweeper with great support options. U-Turn is barely touched on this CAP unless you run Scarf or Choice Kitsunoh, which isn't too common. If we just stick solely to the concept, we can actually learn about the metagame instead of just creating massive amounts of powerful sweepers or gigantic walls.
Krilowatt is supposed to be able to counter specific threats, but not be able to do much else. Sometimes, it needs to counter threats with the use of status, not just bulk and threatening attacks, which is why moves like Thunder Wave and Toxic will be useful. However, moves that will detract Krilowatt from its concept shouldn't be placed in its movepool to help stay on course. In the case of Rain Dance, Krilowatt has enough bulk to be a nice secondary Rain Dance set up and be able to come back in with ease and set up rain. This is why I feel that we should disallow Rain Dance, because Krilowatt can be very beneficial to Rain Dance teams- not as a counter to specific threats to said team, but as a rain supporter.
Yes, it has nice bulk... but is that really enough for it to be at all common as compared to some of the other stuff that can set up Rain Dance? That's what's really significant here. If it won't actually be commonly used for setting up Rain, then it really doesn't matter if it gets it, as it can be used on a Rain Team outside of the lead position, regardless of whether it itself gets Rain Dance or not.
Yeah, it can be a secondary RD source on a Rain Dance team with it... but so could stuff like Kingdra, Ludicolo, Qwilfish, Flotazel, Kabutops, etc, which become much dangerous after a RD than Krilowatt does, so I highly doubt it being used as such--why have Krilly set up Rain when you have Kingdra? Krilowatt's not as immediately threatening after RD as Kingdra is, so it's doubtful that it would really wind up in that role at all either. All I can see it being is just another member of the RD team in that case, which it can be regardless of whether it gets RD itself or not (which is the real point here: if it's not the actual lead, it will probably be able to find its way onto RD teams regardless if it's actually going to be used on them at all, and thus whether RD should be an option on it or not really depends on how good of a RD lead it is).
With that said, is it really that great of a Rain Dance lead, or at least a good enough one to really compete with the others at all? IMO, that's a solid no, due to two main factors: it's lack of U-turn, and it's base 105 Speed. Electrode, Aerodactyl, Azelf, etc, are all faster than Krilly. Speed's significant in a RD lead, so that they aren't just Taunt0bait. As it stands, Krilowatt is outsped by common leads like Azelf, so trying to use it to setup Rain Dance probably isn't the best move, when there are faster options that can do so. This is also especially handy when one of them, Azelf, has U-turn for nice scouting. Krilowatt lacks U-turn, which makes it even more doubtful that even if it is seen on RD teams, that it will be in the lead positon. Plus, then you get stuff like Uxie, which, while not as fast as Krilowatt and such, still do have stuff like U-turn for easy scouting and are thus able to perform the role just as good or better than it.
Considering all of that, I find it extremely doubtful that Krilowatt will find much use as a Rain Dance lead, if at all. As a result, that would leave it being just one of the other members of the Rain Team... which it could be regardless of whether it gets RD or not (I'm pretty sure RD teams don't typically run RD on every member, instead focusing on coverage and set-up moves for the sweepers). Due to this, I can't see why it's presence in Krilowatt's moveset will actually matter or not, and thus it really should be Allowed, IMO.
I just wanted to address Imprison again because I think there's something important that has been left out.
Because of it's speed, this has the potential to give it pseudo-levitate against unscarfed counters. For example, after countering a pokemon that I forced to switch out, Swampert appears. Since I am inarguably faster than it, how do I respond? I can either Imprison on the switch, preventing him from actually countering me with Earthquake, or nail him with something else and decide to Imprison next turn. Staying in would leave me free to attempt to Ice Beam, Crunch, Dragon Claw, Earthquake etc the Swampert to death while absorbing its surfs, ice beams etc. which are all options that would be common on Krillowatt sets as well. This doesn't quite counter a Cursepert, but most other variations would be useless unless they had Roar. The lack of Grass Knot only further muddies my opponent's prediction, since they have no idea what class I'll attack from since neither STAB is particularly effective either. In this case though, Swampert pulling off Stealth Rock is pretty much a given.
This concerns me largely due to the abundance of pokemon with access to earthquake and the likely spike in its use when Krillowatt enters the game. It especially applies to Gliscor and anything else that it outspeeds and would consider trying to use Earthquake on it.
I know that this is how I'm going to handle the Krillowatt counters, by bulking up special defense and imprisoning switch in's so all I really have to worry about is Grass-type counters with Leaf Storm or Seed Bomb.
Imprison still for allowed, surprisingly, since after thinking this through I see uses for it but still very very specific. Still, don't be surprised if it's on alot of sets.
To be completely honest, I don't really like the sound of Rain Dance on Krilowatt. It has the best typing, stat spread, and abilities to make the most of Rain Dance defensively, and even offensively. I'll explain why I think this is a bad idea.
Electric/Water: The best type combination for any Rain Dance user.
There is no doubt that Electric/Water is an invaluable typing for a Rain Dance user, both defensively and offensively. The Water/Electric combination gives Krilowatt the ability to take neutral damage from Electric-type attacks, which some Rain Dance sweepers fear, such as Qwilfish, Floatzel, and Kabutops. Electric/Water also has numerous resistances and few weaknesses, which ultimately helps keep Krilowatt setting up Rain Dance effectively. Offensively, Krilowatt's STAB attacks become stronger. Surf has increased power during the rain and is able to use perfectly accurate Thunders, which has the added bonus of spreading paralysis (30% chance). To me, I think this is pretty dangerous, because we then have the risk of Krilowatt being used as a sweeper and not as what it is meant to be doing. We do not want Krilowatt to become a sweeper.
The defenses and offenses: Definitely useable.
Krilowatt is extremely bulky. There are very, very few effective and bulky Rain Dance supporters in the metagame right now. It boasts extreme HP which helps accommodate both of Krilowatt's average defenses, and it just makes it a generally bulky supporter Pokemon. It's like Bronzong, except better. This huge amount of bulk helps it switch into many threats and set up Rain Dance, which it can then abuse with Thunder (the 30% paralysis chance will help it outpace speedy threats like Latias) or simply switch to the appropriate Rain Dance abuser.
Don't get me wrong, base 83 Special Attack can be abused, not to mention that great base 105 Speed. Lanturn, who has significantly less Special Attack, still hits surprisingly hard with Life Orbed Thunders and the like, so I don't see how you can say Krilowatt won't do the same. It will hit very hard. Let me provide you with examples (this is using Timid with 252 Special Attack EVs @ Life Orb):
Code:
Thunder vs 252 HP Metagross: 56.87% - 67.03%
Surf: 67.58% - 79.40%
Thunder vs 248 HP Scizor: 66.76% - 78.72%
Surf: 79.01% - 93.00%
Surf vs 252 HP Swampert: 60.89% - 71.53%
Thunder vs 252 HP Forretress: 81.36% - 95.76%
Surf: 95.76% - 112.99%
Surf vs Flygon: 90.03% - 105.98%
Thunder vs Gengar: 91.95% - 108.43%
Surf: 109.20% - 128.74%
Thunder vs Jirachi: 55.72% - 65.98%
Surf: 66.28% - 78.30%
Surf vs Jolteon: 86.72% - 102.21%
Thunder vs Lucario: 90.75% - 106.76%
Surf: 107.12% - 126.33%
Anyway, you get the idea. Krilowatt should never be coming close to these damage outputs. That screams offensive. That screams sweeper. We need to keep Krilowatt from being potentially used as an offensive sweeper. This was never intended in the concept and shouldn't be. Krilowatt is supposed to be countering threats, not sweeping them.
Amazing Abilities: Magic Guard powers it up to the next level.
Yeah, Magic Guard. The ability that was never supposed to be on this thing. Magic Guard increases Krilowatt's viability as a rain supporter and sweeper by a mile. Let's see... Krilowatt takes no damage from entry hazards, which means defensive sets have an easier time switching and offensive sets aren't worn down easily. No Life Orb recoil, which makes the offensive set way more threatening then it is and defensive sets can potentially use Life Orb instead of Leftovers if they want some oomph to their attacks. Immunity to poison and burn status, which gives Krilowatt more survivability in general. Toxic and Toxic Spikes are one of the key ways of defeating Rain Dance teams, and with a supporter slash sweeper being completely immune to them, you get a really effective Rain Dance Pokemon on your hands.
All in all, Rain Dance causes Krilowatt to be potentially used as a scary offensive threat, and basically defeats the purpose of the concept. It's not supposed to be an amazing Rain Dance supporter or sweeper, it's supposed to be a counter. I don't want this on Krilowatt's movepool. I oppose Rain Dance.
Anyway, you get the idea. Krilowatt should never be coming close to these damage outputs. That screams offensive. That screams sweeper. We need to keep Krilowatt from being potentially used as an offensive sweeper. This was never intended in the concept and shouldn't be. Krilowatt is supposed to be countering threats, not sweeping them.[/B]
Technically speaking Krilowatt could and probably will be used as some sort of sweeper during the testing period due to Magic Guard and overall offensive movepool. That's not to say it's too late to limit how potent a sweeper this Pokemon could be now.
And so the overarching argument for "Allowed" seems to be, "It's stronger on other pokemon with setups, so who gives a shit?" Is that basically the best argument in-favor of the move?
Wait...what? Where you get that impression from? Of course people give a shit about Encore, why else would people be strongly against/for a move in the first place. If no one cared about the move then no one would have mentioned it.
However, despite this sounding like an argument to allow it, no one will ever run it. Simply because Stallrain is the better user of a stall-set of that nature, and it can do a lot of damage in different ways once it's had time to switch in.
That's not how it works. If no one is going to run Aqua Ring due to being an inferior option then it shouldn't be disallowed. Things only get disallowed if it broken on the Pokemon at hand and/or it goes too far against the concept. Aqua Ring is neither so I say it should be allowed.
Technically speaking Krilowatt could and probably will be used as some sort of sweeper during the testing period due to Magic Guard and overall offensive movepool. That's not to say it's too late to limit how potent a sweeper this Pokemon could be now.
An un-boosted Surf and the fact that you need to use Thunderbolt (Thunder's accuracy is pathetic without rain) makes Krilowatt way less threatening than Krilowatt with a rain-boosted Surf and the ability to use Thunder that has a 30% chance to cause paralysis. It speaks for itself.
An un-boosted Surf and the fact that you need to use Thunderbolt (Thunder's accuracy is pathetic without rain) makes Krilowatt way less threatening than Krilowatt with a rain-boosted Surf and the ability to use Thunder that has a 30% chance to cause paralysis. It speaks for itself.
I think you misunderstood my comment. My reply was directed towards your comment about how Krilowatt shouldn't be able to sweep thing when it can (not great but decent enough) due to Magic Guard making Life Orb a more viable item for this Pokemon.
I think you misunderstood my comment. My reply was directed towards your comment about how Krilowatt shouldn't be able to sweep thing when it can (not great but decent enough) due to Magic Guard making Life Orb a more viable item for this Pokemon.
Yeah you're going to get some people using a Life Orb set. You can't stop that from happening for sure. However, you can put less emphasis on offensive sets by not giving it potentially dangerous moves. In this case, Rain Dance is a potentially dangerous move in the way that it can make Krilowatt into a strong sweeper. It really isn't worth using a Life Orb set when you have to use Surf and Thunderbolt with not high enough Special Attack to hit hard. Rain Dance makes Life Orb worth it because of the advantages it brings. It just shouldn't be on the movepool.
^Thing is though, if someone REALLY wanted Krilowatt to abuse the rain, they'd probably throw Rain Dance on someone else anyway. You might lose a turn when you switch-in, but is one extra turn of rain advantage really that important? Since there's already a handful of Rain Dancers that one can use effectively, I've got no problem with allowing Rain Dance.
Moving on: Disallow Aqua Ring. Either that or disallow Protect, which I feel is morally wrong to do. Why? OK, first thing's first, send in the shrimp. Then throw up a sub, Activate Aqua Ring, Protect, and the cycle starts all over again. Viola, you got yourself a pain in the ass and you can't do anything about it until you have a live phazer on your side of the field. If that doesn't defy the concept, I don't know what does.
Yawn should be disallowed too. Afflicted mons have two choices. They can absorb the Sleep status, which they shouldn't even think about doing unless their name is Revenankh or they're running a Restalk set. OR they can switch, which they're x10 more likely to do. Krilly should be trying to counter enemy Pokemon, not persuade them to switch.
Heart Swap, on the other hand, can be allowed. Adm. Korski already provided a list of the Pokemon that Krilowatt should even bother gaining boosts from via. Heart Swapping. As for losing its own decrements, the only one I'm really worried about is the -1 Defense that Superpower gives along with the -1 Attack. But I feel that's more of a reason to ban Superpower than to ban Heart Swap, even though it too late for the former...
Maybe Grudge can help the concept a bit. It can turn any soft counters into definite hard counters since it completely wipes out PP from the last move used against the user. For example, say that your enemy brings Salamence in at full health against a weakened physical Krilowatt, activating Intimidate. Thanks to this, Krilowatt can't really KO it with Ice Punch (even with a Life Orb and full investment in attack, a Jolly one only deals 77.3% - 91.8% damage factoring in Intimidate), so it tries using Grudge instead. As predicted, Mence kills Krill with EQ, wiping out all its PP. Now Scarfed Heatran can switch in without fear and avenge Krilowatt's death with Hidden Power Ice. Then again, possibly countering two Pokemon at once is what got Destiny Bond banned. Is Grudge any better?
I am with Naxte and Stalfos on Rain Dance. Considering the ridiculous depth of Kril's movepool I am going to be very hesitant to use one on rain dance when, if I am running a Rain Dance team, most any other pokemon could run the rain for me and most of those will not have the wealth of options that Kril does. Krill coming in after Bronzong has set-up rain might be his best approach on a Rain Dance team since, as someone mentioned earlier, they cover eachother's weaknesses perfectly. Taking away Rain Dance will not keep Krilowatt from being used in the rain and likely won't even decrease his viability on one since he has better things to use his moveslot on. Rain Dance should be allowed. It really just gives Krilowatt 3 moveslot syndrome. I can hardly see how that breaks the concept.
I think I can see where the problem lies with deciding which moves should be allowed or disallowed. Ultimately, every pokemon falls into one of the following categories: sweeper; wall; tank. I don't recall seeing any of those three words in the concept, so arguably everything we do and have done goes against the concept one way or another because it lets CAP10 be a sweeper, wall or tank. In fact, we even seem to have contradictory results: the stat distribution we wanted was one that would prevent CAP10 from being a sweeper, but picking Magic Guard as an ability, knowing full well that this allows CAP10 to get a 30% bonus to its attack and special attack stats for free, suggests that CAP10 ought to be able to sweep.
So, here's my novel idea: instead of worrying about what fits the concept at this stage, let us consider whether we want CAP10 to be a sweeper, wall or tank, and allow or disallow moves based on that. If we only consider whether a move fits the concept or not, then we should really disallow all non-attacking moves altogether since no non-attacking move is both useful enough and specialised enough to fit the concept.
Aqua Ring should be Allowed. It's not too useful anyway, so it wouldn't be broken or anything, but it could help it with a nice staller set, or as just a PP Waster.
And in fact, that doesn't even matter, since it can be used on a RD team regardless of whether or not it itself gets it, so I'm not seeing how this is an issue atall. Whether we deny it RD or not won't affect it's ability to be a member of RD teams: all that changes is whether or not it can set it up itself. And that comes to the next point: since, even if CAP10 gets Rain Dance, because it doesn't have access to moves like U-turn or blistering fast speed, it's very doubtful that it will be used as a RD lead. [Other Pokemon] are better in that field than Krilowatt, so it's doubtful that it will really see much use as a RD lead.
Banny agrees with the stuff in green. Denying Krilowatt to have Rain Dance in its movepool, regardless of the fact that ALL Pokemon get Sunny Day / Rain Dance (except, obviously, things that don't get TMs), does not in any way still prevent him from abusing rain if he wants to. As Rising Dusk so aptly pointed out, Bronzong has absolutely no trouble setting up Rain for Kril and then switching him in on a resisted attack. So how do you handle that? Disallow any Rain setup moves with Kril on the team? I don't think there's really any reasonable way to ban Rain Dance from Krilowatt's movepool. Because Rain Dance being or not being in Krilowatt's movepool has absolutely no bearing on his ability to use the rain, I sayallow Rain Dance.
Pain Split isn't so great with high HP and would work against Krilowatt there. But in any case, it's hard to say where this would go exactly, so I'd like to see it Allowed for now, unless someone can convince me that it's broken or something. But as I said, this is more just a personal musing of mine, and is more just something I've just always been curious about moreso than anything, so I won't actually push too hard on this one either way. Either way though, it would be nice to see some more opinions on this.
Allow Charm and Captivate. Stat-lowering moves that lower offensive stats only work when used on Pokemon that use moves that get lowered by them. This makes it so if Krilowatt were to use a move to lower either Attack or Special Attack, it would be on a set customized to beat either Physical or Special threats. Lowering the main offensive stat of such a Pokemon would force it out, which would mean it would be countered. And taking up two moveslots to run both Charm and Captivate would leave only two other slots, making running both a mostly unviable option. So Krilowatt would have to choose between better countering Physical or Special threats, which fits perfectly with the concept of only being able to counter some groups of Pokemon at once.
This sounds mostly okay to me; the only problem I'm seeing with the logic is that Krilowatt could still sort of block or tank both sides of the spectrum without needing both moves by very heavily investing in Sp. Def and using Charm (since Captivate is barely a competetive move at all, probably shouldn't even be discussed here). Given, though, that since Kril has no reliable means of recovery, this wouldn't be very effective or useful compared to what Kril is actually designed to do. So I'll say allow Charm, and I'm ignoring Captivate because I don't feel that it is competetive enough to discuss.
I also like Admiral Stalfos' suggestion of Grudge, and I'd be willing to get behind that and support Grudge as well. In the same vein, Memento might also be interesting, but it probably goes too far from the concept.
Aqua Ring should be Allowed. It's not too useful anyway, so it wouldn't be broken or anything, but it could help it with a nice staller set, or as just a PP Waster.
CAP-10's concept isn't to stall, it's to counter specific things. Stall does not counter anything specific at all, which is why I want Aqua Ring to be disallowed. Giving it the ability to stall strays too far from the concept, I think.
By the way, I just realized a critical point that is completely absent from every CAP-10 movepool and counters discussion that I've been following... How does Krilowatt match up against the other CAP threats? :0 I seem to recall thinking that Pyroak would make a pretty solid counter for Kril, since Oak takes neutral damage from the vast majority of his common offensive movepool, and Pyroak can easily hammer Kril with STAB Grass moves or stick it with Leech Seed to abuse Kril's high HP to its own advantage. It's probably a bit late to be bringing things like this up, but what do the rest of you think about this?
That was part of my paragraph on Transform actually and I wasn't supporting Pain Split itself there, but yeah, I definitely think Pain Split should be Allowed. Scanning the first post, I'm very surprised to see it in Disallowed right now. With Krilly's high base HP, it's typically a very useless form of recovery, and on a quick scan through of the thread, only one other person seems to have mentioned it, calling for it to be disallowed... because it's useless (which makes no sense and is why it should be Allowed). It's an extremely situational form of recovery at best, much more so than Aqua Ring is (and that itself is Controversial right now, which is very odd--if something like Aqua Ring is Controversial, then so should Pain Split, but since I can't actually voice support for Controversial status, then I'll say it should be Allowed), and as a result, it definitely won't be worth the move slot in much cases, much less actually finding a good chance to be used when it is given the option. As a result, Pain Split should definitely be Allowed, IMO.
By the way, I just realized a critical point that is completely absent from every CAP-10 movepool and counters discussion that I've been following... How does Krilowatt match up against the other CAP threats? :0 I seem to recall thinking that Pyroak would make a pretty solid counter for Kril, since Oak takes neutral damage from the vast majority of his common offensive movepool, and Pyroak can easily hammer Kril with STAB Grass moves or stick it with Leech Seed to abuse Kril's high HP to its own advantage. It's probably a bit late to be bringing things like this up, but what do the rest of you think about this?
That's because Krilowatt won't just be dropped into the CAP metagame when it's finished and put onto the Ladder. It will be tested with all other CAPs banned, to see how it performs in and what effect it has on the OU environment by itself. It will eventually be thrown in with the other CAPs, yeah, but that's more just for fun: what we're really concerned about is the Playtesting period where it's by itself. As a result, how it performs against the other CAPs is pretty irrelevant for now, and thus why no one is talking about them.
Alright, I don't know what happened to my post, but i vote move Rain dance to allowed. Rain dance will not be used on a vast majority of the teams besides rain dance teams. It will be a utility counter, but on rain dance teams it will find its own niche as a rain dance supporter/sweeper, but only on raindance teams.
this just adds adds another niche for krillo to fill. Raindance will be dead weight in most krillo builds.
There's a difference between Krilowatt setting up Rain Dance and your team setting up Rain Dance. Like I said in my previous posts, Rain Dance Krilowatt is dangerous. It's an excellent supporter due to it have an incredible defensive stat spread and abilities, not to mention that fabulous typing. It's so easy for it to set up Rain Dance for itself and its team. That's what I don't like about this. Krilowatt goes against its concept as a Utility Counter and becomes one of the best Rain Dance supporters, even sweepers to a certain extent, in the game. I don't care if Krilowatt doesn't happen to get Rain Dance but is still used on Rain Dance teams, because it's not the one that is consistently setting up the rain easily. We're not purposefully going against the concept, the battler using Krilowatt is. I don't want to emphasize the fact that Krilowatt becomes an excellent Rain Dancer in many cases. Why do we want to do this?
There's a difference between Krilowatt setting up Rain Dance and your team setting up Rain Dance. Like I said in my previous posts, Rain Dance Krilowatt is dangerous. It's an excellent supporter due to it have an incredible defensive stat spread and abilities, not to mention that fabulous typing. It's so easy for it to set up Rain Dance for itself and its team. That's what I don't like about this. Krilowatt goes against its concept as a Utility Counter and becomes one of the best Rain Dance supporters, even sweepers to a certain extent, in the game. I don't care if Krilowatt doesn't happen to get Rain Dance but is still used on Rain Dance teams, because it's not the one that is consistently setting up the rain easily. We're not purposefully going against the concept, the battler using Krilowatt is. I don't want to emphasize the fact that Krilowatt becomes an excellent Rain Dancer in many cases. Why do we want to do this?
Regarding the bolded statement, how do we know that Kril IS going to be setting up Rain so easily, even if it DOES get it? :0
The way I see it, Kril pretty much has to choose between EVing itself bulkily, so it can reliably set up Rain Dance, or EVing sweeperishly, so it can abuse the rain that it sets up. If Kril chooses to EV defensively, it instantly becomes harder for it to kill things in the rain due to its already-mediocre stats, and it's getting next to no other supportive or setup options already as it is. The best a defensive Rain support Krilowatt can hope to do outside of setting up rain is utilize Counter/Mirror Coat, status things with Toxic or Twave, or Perish Song things away as it switches, far as I can tell, because unless it EVs very offensively, even those STAB Surfs and Thunders aren't going to be doing it much against anything not weak to them, especially on its mediocre offenses. Basically, Krilowatt fails as a defensive supporter due to a lack of a supporting movepool.
And if Kril chooses to EV offensively, then it doesn't matter whether or not it has Rain to set itself up, or if someone else does it; and in fact, it possibly wastes a turn and a moveslot during which it can potentially take damage or be crippled with paralysis as it sets itself up for a rain sweep. I maintain Rain Dance for allowed.
-EDIT- I see your point and you're right, I guess Kril can deal some damage in the rain after all. Also, Ice Beam is far from the only thing apart from Thunder and Surf that Kril can run; it can stil run other moves (like Signal Beam) to beat things (like Celebi) that resist both its STABS and still aren't bothered by Ice Beam, even though it's SE. Its offensive movepool is NOT as bad as you're making it out to be. :0 In any case, I don't really plan to alter my stance on the move either. I think Rain Dance has been argued about as much as it can be, so it'll just be up to Beej to make a decision, I think.
That was part of my paragraph on Transform actually and I wasn't supporting Pain Split itself there, but yeah, I definitely think Pain Split should be Allowed. (etc.)
I know, sorry, I was sort of ignoring the bit on Transform because I've argued against it before and didn't feel like doing so again. :0 I instead addressed Pain Split because it hadn't been mentioned before (that I was aware of).
That's because Krilowatt won't just be dropped into the CAP metagame when it's finished and put onto the Ladder. It will be tested with all other CAPs banned, to see how it performs in and what effect it has on the OU environment by itself. It will eventually be thrown in with the other CAPs, yeah, but that's more just for fun: what we're really concerned about is the Playtesting period where it's by itself. As a result, how it performs against the other CAPs is pretty irrelevant for now, and thus why no one is talking about them.
Err, you can't vote for things to be controversial. o___o that's something that the Topic Leader decides. If you're feeling controversial about a move, you're supposed to pick a side or stay out of the discussion.
Okay, perhaps I'm theorymoned a bit too much when I said that. However, you can safely assume that Krilowatt will be able to set up rain effectively. I mean, it has everything a supporter wants. Immunity to hazards and poison, great overall defenses, and perfect typing.
The way I see it, Kril pretty much has to choose between EVing itself bulkily, so it can reliably set up Rain Dance, or EVing sweeperishly, so it can abuse the rain that it sets up. If Kril chooses to EV defensively, it instantly becomes harder for it to kill things in the rain due to its already-mediocre stats, and it's getting next to no other supportive or setup options already as it is. The best a defensive Rain support Krilowatt can hope to do outside of setting up rain is utilize Counter/Mirror Coat, status things with Toxic or Twave, or Perish Song things away as it switches, far as I can tell, because unless it EVs very offensively, even those STAB Surfs and Thunders aren't going to be doing it much against anything not weak to them, especially on its mediocre offenses. Basically, Krilowatt fails as a defensive supporter due to a lack of a supporting movepool.
Actually, if you run Krilowatt with 0 Special Attack EVs, it still hits hard under the rain. I don't think you know just how powerful someone with base 84 Special Attack can do. For example, take a look at these (Surf is assuming under rain):
Surf vs 252 HP Metagross: 43.68% - 51.37%
Thunder: 37.09% - 43.68%
Surf vs 248 HP Scizor: 46.36% - 54.52%
Thunder: 39.36% - 46.36%
Surf vs 252 HP Swampert: 39.36% - 46.29%
Surf vs Flygon: 58.14% - 68.77%
Surf vs Jolteon: 56.46% - 66.42%
Etc...
Based on those few damage calculations, how exactly does Krilowatt fail at hitting hard when it uses Rain Dance? To me, that is pretty impressive, especially considering that Krilowatt is using no Special Attack and no Life Orb. Krilowatt does not need a vast amount of support moves to threaten anyone. It already threatens Pokemon with a boosted Surf and a perfectly accurate Thunder that has a 30% chance to cause paralysis. That is perfectly acceptable for a defensive rain supporter. Krilowatt does not fail as a defensive supporter whatsoever.
And if Kril chooses to EV offensively, then it doesn't matter whether or not it has Rain to set itself up, or if someone else does it; and in fact, it possibly wastes a turn and a moveslot during which it can potentially take damage or be crippled with paralysis as it sets itself up for a rain sweep. I maintain Rain Dance for allowed.
For one, Krilowatt doesn't have the greatest offensive movepool. All it needs to use for a Rain Dance set is Surf, Thunder, and Ice Beam. It has nothing else that is notable. Therefore, it doesn't "waste a moveslot", because it doesn't really have anything better to run. It's okay if Krilowatt takes some damage from an attack when it sets up rain, because Magic Guard prevents Life Orb recoil so Krilowatt is still good to go. Nobody will try to set up Rain Dance when they are facing some paralysis user like Blissey, a smart player knows when to use Rain Dance and when not to use it.
Rain Dance DOES help counter certain threats. It weakens the power of Fire-type moves, helping with Heatran, Infernape, evven Salamance. But, most importantly, it takes away Tyranitar's Sandstorm. We know Krillowatt can take a Earthquake from T-Tar, and without it's sand, and with the Rain Boost, Surf is a OHKO I'm quite sure.
Not putting Rain Dance on Krillowatt is not going to stop the Rain teams. Perfect typing for Brongzong, one of the best Rain Dance Transitioners, is enough reason to use it in Rain Dance.
As a result, it would not only be futile to prevent Rain Dance being on Krillowatt's moveset, but it would actually help in countering a couple of threats.
Rain Dance is scariest when it has 8 turns to operate. Since this requires Damp Rock, Krilowatt cannot simultaneously be holding it and Life Orb. Krilowatt will be a very effective member of a Rain Team, but it is not an ideal member to set it up. 105 Speed is pretty good, but without Swift Swim it's still outclassed, and becomes fodder for other Rain Dance sweepers. On a set with Rain Dance and Life Orb, Krilowatt would have 4 turns to sweep and be vulnerable during the turn it uses Rain Dance. If Rain Dance were set up by say Bronzong with Damp Rock, you would still have 6 turns left after it switches to Krilowatt.
In either case, Krilowatt is going to benefit more as a recipient of Rain Dance than a starter, and there's nothing we can do at this point, other than something like keeping Thunder out of a movepool.
In any event, I still support Charge, since Water typing keeps Ground types at bay generally, and Krilowatt can benefit from the same defensive boost. Doing the damage all at once also negates a turn of the opponent's Leftovers recovery, marginal, but it could be useful.
Still looking for feedback on Screech. It can give physical sets more viability, and allow it to counter things like Crocune without relying on Life Orb.
Why? Krilowatt doesn't do anything better than other OUs offensively, so why are we so paranoid that it's going to be anything other than pathetically weak? Even if it's not countering this one Pokemon, letting it be useful otherwise is going to guarantee a spot on my team, or else I'll just can it for being dead weight and find something else.
This is ridiculous, Rain Dance for allowed. It's just a good supporting option to make it something other than useless for a strategy that's not even prominent in OU.
Honestly, with all the crap that you guys don't want Krilowatt to do, you're making Lanturn sound more appealing right now.
I think I can see where the problem lies with deciding which moves should be allowed or disallowed. Ultimately, every pokemon falls into one of the following categories: sweeper; wall; tank. I don't recall seeing any of those three words in the concept, so arguably everything we do and have done goes against the concept one way or another because it lets CAP10 be a sweeper, wall or tank. In fact, we even seem to have contradictory results: the stat distribution we wanted was one that would prevent CAP10 from being a sweeper, but picking Magic Guard as an ability, knowing full well that this allows CAP10 to get a 30% bonus to its attack and special attack stats for free, suggests that CAP10 ought to be able to sweep.
So, here's my novel idea: instead of worrying about what fits the concept at this stage, let us consider whether we want CAP10 to be a sweeper, wall or tank, and allow or disallow moves based on that. If we only consider whether a move fits the concept or not, then we should really disallow all non-attacking moves altogether since no non-attacking move is both useful enough and specialised enough to fit the concept.
Did anyone pay attention to this post here? Because I think he might be onto something.
We can't strip CAP10 of a good movepool or utility options because we're afraid it might go against the concept. Quite frankly, this is Pokemon; you can make them do whatever you want them to, even if they're not meant to be used as such.
There's no way for us to make this impossible to be used as a general sweeper or tank and quite frankly, I think we've done well enough to discourage it through its stat distribution and offensive movepool. Now we need to find a way for this "utility counter" to actually see some use on our teams.
Umm... that's with no Special Attack and without a Life Orb. That is very good damage for a Pokemon with base 84 Special Attack which isn't even boosted. If you want to see max Special Attack Krilowatt with a Life Orb, look at my other post earlier on this page.
The only reason I am opposing Rain Dance on Krilowatt is because it goes against the concept. I understand that Krilowatt can still be used on Rain Dance teams without Rain Dance in its movepool, but my point is that we shouldn't give it Rain Dance because it shouldn't use it. It's not supposed to be this great Rain Dance supporter. It's built to counter threats, so it should be countering. Sad to say that I'm outnumbered in this argument, though.
Still looking for feedback on Screech. It can give physical sets more viability, and allow it to counter things like Crocune without relying on Life Orb.
I support the idea of allowing Screech onto Krilowatt's movepool. The physical set does need something to make it in par with the special set ever since Volt Tackle was banned. Funny thing about the idea of Screech-watt is that Swampert can still counters it. Shrimp really hates mud puppies.
