No one said anything about STAB for Rotom-A and Zapdos. Ground and Fighting are equally bad against both STAB wise, but Ground actually has an advantage over both while Fighting is completely pointless.
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CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 2 - Main Typing Poll 2
- Thread starter Fuzznip
- Start date
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I believe that Ground is the best typing for Togekiss' best partner. Many have said that HP Ice/Ice Beams will make short work of this duo, but the Pokemon that use HP Ice are Electric types (and the occasional Heatran), but they tend to carry HP Grass instead so they can deal with Swampert. Since neutral STAB Thunderbolts (and Fire Blasts)deal more damage then a SE Hidden Power, a Fighting type partner will ultimately take more damage if Jolteon/Raikou/Zapdos/Rotom-A(what Rotom-A carries HP Ice/Grass)/Magnezone just spam T-Bolts. Now all 4/6 of those Pokemon take SE damage from Ground attacks, Heatran and Magnezone have a 4x weakness, and Zapdos will take super effective damage from whatever Rock attack CAP11 will have if it is Ground.
Some have said that Starmie will beat the duo because of its powerful Ice Beam, but would you rather take a super effective Ice Beam or a STAB super effective Psychic? (Oh and please don't say that Starmie can just have Specs and destroy the combo by spamming Ice Beam, because then it is asking to be set up on/be Pursuit bait which would give this duo a much easier time).
Some have said that Starmie will beat the duo because of its powerful Ice Beam, but would you rather take a super effective Ice Beam or a STAB super effective Psychic? (Oh and please don't say that Starmie can just have Specs and destroy the combo by spamming Ice Beam, because then it is asking to be set up on/be Pursuit bait which would give this duo a much easier time).
About the same as Fighting STAB (our other choice), Except Ground STAB can get around it with Mold Breaker and Fighting STAB can't without Scrappy, where it's still dealing neutral damage (and Mold Breaker is the entirely superior ability in almost every other conceivable way, save Scrappy Rapid Spin.)
Meanwhile Ground is immune to Charge Beam, Thunderbolt, and Thunder Wave.
I agree with Chris is me's point on rotom-A and zapdos. Furthermore, in combination, ground and togekiss are immune to rotom's STABs. I think that most non-choiced rotom-A will not outspeed togekiss, and the faster ones will be afraid to be locked into the wrong move. An additional ground-type is needed to prevent choice specs rotom from spamming thunderbolt on kiss once your team is revealed; it seems that the perfect partner's main type should be able to check rotom at least this far alone.
I also did not have dark in mind for a dual typing for the CAP but the only reason I am mentioning it is because of Collosoil fears. Rotom and starmie alone are very little to request dark STAB. I have to admit though, this is my first time participating in CAP, so I'm not an expert on that.
I also did not have dark in mind for a dual typing for the CAP but the only reason I am mentioning it is because of Collosoil fears. Rotom and starmie alone are very little to request dark STAB. I have to admit though, this is my first time participating in CAP, so I'm not an expert on that.
Brave bird is neutral against ground and super effective against fighting.
Obviously this makes no difference when we're deciding the stat spreads of a Pokemon.
Coverage tends to help here. We can fine-tune CAP 11 to our will; Dark and Rock deal with every single Pokemon on that list (Stone Edge and Crunch, anyone?). However, the same does apply to Ground types, so this point doesn't give leeway to either side. I will admit though that a CAP that can lure in and defeat its counters is an appealing thought to me, and a Fighting type has an easy time doing this with Dark and Rock moves.
You know what deals more damage than that? Starmie, Suicune, or Vaporeon using Ice Beam to a Ground CAP. While I admit Ice isn't the biggest of problems, Fighting doesn't give us another weakness to it. While fighting's weaknesses are neutral against Kiss, Ice is SE against it, and that's really not a good thing at all. Many arguments involve how Ice moves can only 2HKO. But Flying and Psychic moves will likely have a hard time even 3HKOing Togekiss.
In addition, a Ground CAP still doesn't stop Zapdos pounding on it with HP Ice, or HP Grass for that matter.
Perhaps the reason we take out Aura Sphere is for a different coverage move? Shadow Ball and Psychic could give us a fighting chance against Rotom (if we're Scarfed, for example). Flamethrower is more reliable against Jirachi and Metagross than Aura Sphere is.
Specs Aura Sphere can't 2HKO Blissey, while she can T-Wave back and Softboiled off the damage. The only Kiss variant capable of taking out Blissey is Nasty Plot Kiss, and that leaves you wide open to Rotom and any of his forms. Tyranitar, I will concede, isn't as much of a problem (Aura Sphere pretty much always OHKOs) but a ScarfTar can still manage to pick off a weaknened Kiss. Blissey, however, is a bigger problem, and any team packing a core of Blissey and Rotom will give Kiss difficulty that a fast, Fighting-type CAP 11 wouldn't have.
There's really not much more to discuss here without rehashing old ground (lolol more puns), but I'll briefly cover the primary counterarguments against a Fighting CAP.
"Immune to Electric"
Ground's electric immunity is quite literally the only redeeming point of the typing in comparison to Fighting, and it is more than compensated for by its weakness to the extremely common Water and Ice types, both of which is often paired with an Electric attack in the first place.
The paralysis immunity is certainly valuable, however. I'll give you guys that. It's just worth your consideration whether it's valuable enough that you're willing to put up with all the disadvantages that come with being part Ground...especially when Togekiss is capable of running Heal Bell and we're capable of giving this a whole host of abilities that negate/benefit from paralysis.
Note also that Ground has no other resistances of note that Fighting doesn't have, while Fighting has that key Dark and Bug resistance (important for Secondary Typing considerations).
"Fighting CAP has redundant coverage with Togekiss"
If people think Fighting gets redundant coverage with Togekiss...what exactly is Air Slash/Aura Sphere not hitting that Ground is? I'm curious. At least a Fighting CAP can claim that it frees up a moveslot for Togekiss (i.e. it can run Fire Blast and dispose of Skarmory, Bronzong, Jirachi etc way easier or Shadow Ball for Rotom) and can possibly strike from a different side of the spectrum. Offensively, Ground offers literally nothing to Togekiss that Fighting doesn't; it does free up Togekiss to run Air Slash/Fire Blast (it can take out Heatran) but so does Fighting. It cannot free up Togekiss to run Shadow Ball (walled by bronzong, skarm) or indeed any other support move. "Hey they're both fighting REDUNDANT" is not a valid argument, as it speaks to a lack of due consideration with regards to exactly how STAB Ground benefits Togekiss over STAB Fighting (hint: it doesn't).
"Fighting doesn't deal with Togekiss's checks"
I believe the Pokemon people most often refer to as Togekiss's checks are: Rotom-A, Zapdos, Bronzong, Blissey, Tyranitar, Jirachi, and Gengar. Let's go through and see how Fighting versus Ground fares against these.
Rotom-A: Immune to both Fighting and Ground STAB. Ground wins points due to Electric immunity, while Fighting wins points due to not being utterly raped by Hydro Pump/Leaf Storm. Ultimately this one is going to come down to stat spread, movepool, and secondary typing; if CAP11 is slower than Rotom, Fighting wins. If it's faster, Ground will win. If Fighting gets Payback and Ground doesn't get any dark moves, Fighting wins. If Ground gets a secondary typing like Grass (lol), Ground wins. Calling this a Tie for now.
Zapdos: Similar situation as above. Fighting wins some points for actually being able to hit Zapdos, while Ground wins points for being immune to its primary STAB. This one also comes down to extraneous factors, basically the same as last time. If Ground is faster, Ground wins. If not, it's a Tie. Given everything though, I'd say Ground has an advantage against Zapdos, mostly because it's only threatened by a mildly powerful Hidden Power instead of a base 120+ SE hit.
Starmie: Do I need to cover this? Ground loses horribly. I suppose you could argue that Starmie can run Psychic but...no one runs Psychic on Starmie, its slots are way better used with Recover/Rapid Spin.
Tyranitar: It's going to depend on the stat spread, although Ground is not going to enjoy CB Crunch. Additionally, STAB Earth Power won't KO Tyranitar unless it's ridiculously boosted, while STAB Aura Sphere will much more easily. As far as Tyranitar is concerned they're almost completely the same in most other aspects. So Ground loses, but not as horribly.
Blissey: I mentioned this earlier, but Bold Blissey can stall out even physical variants of Ground CAP11 if it has Toxic and if CAP11 ends up with less than 100 base ATK. Special variants have no chance. Physical variants of Fighting CAP easily beat Blissey, while Special variants would do about as well as Specs Luke does. Ground loses.
Bronzong: Fighting easily wins, since it hits Bronzong neutral and not...nothing. Ground loses.
Gengar: They're both neutral to Shadow Ball (contingent on secondary typing but yeah). Fighting CAP11 will more than likely get Payback while the Ground one will not and have to rely on Fail Edge, but let's ignore that for now. If we do, Ground CAP11 has a slight advantage simply on the strength of the Electric immunity for the initial Thunderbolt. If we take probable movepool options into account then...not so much.
Jirachi: Bit of a tricky one. Ground hits it SE, but also gets hit SE by Ice Punch from the extremely popular physical choice variants. Given that it's very likely that Ice Punch will be directed at Togekiss, Ground CAP11 would actually do rather poorly. Granted if this gets any sort of reasonable bulk it won't die immediately to a couple of UNSTAB'd Ice Punches, but I'd prefer taking half damage from an attack and hitting neutrally than hitting something SE but taking double damage. Therefore, I'd say it's at a slight disadvantage just because of that shared weakness (which is more important from the perspective of synergy than "can I hit this SE").
So barring disagreements with my analysis (which I'm sure will be prolific), we can see that a Ground CAP will have advantages against certain checks but disadvantages against many others. And note that these are "checks"; for every "Togekiss can run Aura Sphere and beat X" I could easily say "And Togekiss can easily run Shadow Ball and beat Y". Togekiss's movepool is extremely diverse, meaning it makes little sense to latch on to one set and devise a partner around JUST that specific set. This is supposed to be a partner for Togekiss, not just one specific set of the many viable sets Togekiss can run.
"Immune to Electric"
Ground's electric immunity is quite literally the only redeeming point of the typing in comparison to Fighting, and it is more than compensated for by its weakness to the extremely common Water and Ice types, both of which is often paired with an Electric attack in the first place.
The paralysis immunity is certainly valuable, however. I'll give you guys that. It's just worth your consideration whether it's valuable enough that you're willing to put up with all the disadvantages that come with being part Ground...especially when Togekiss is capable of running Heal Bell and we're capable of giving this a whole host of abilities that negate/benefit from paralysis.
Note also that Ground has no other resistances of note that Fighting doesn't have, while Fighting has that key Dark and Bug resistance (important for Secondary Typing considerations).
"Fighting CAP has redundant coverage with Togekiss"
If people think Fighting gets redundant coverage with Togekiss...what exactly is Air Slash/Aura Sphere not hitting that Ground is? I'm curious. At least a Fighting CAP can claim that it frees up a moveslot for Togekiss (i.e. it can run Fire Blast and dispose of Skarmory, Bronzong, Jirachi etc way easier or Shadow Ball for Rotom) and can possibly strike from a different side of the spectrum. Offensively, Ground offers literally nothing to Togekiss that Fighting doesn't; it does free up Togekiss to run Air Slash/Fire Blast (it can take out Heatran) but so does Fighting. It cannot free up Togekiss to run Shadow Ball (walled by bronzong, skarm) or indeed any other support move. "Hey they're both fighting REDUNDANT" is not a valid argument, as it speaks to a lack of due consideration with regards to exactly how STAB Ground benefits Togekiss over STAB Fighting (hint: it doesn't).
"Fighting doesn't deal with Togekiss's checks"
I believe the Pokemon people most often refer to as Togekiss's checks are: Rotom-A, Zapdos, Bronzong, Blissey, Tyranitar, Jirachi, and Gengar. Let's go through and see how Fighting versus Ground fares against these.
Rotom-A: Immune to both Fighting and Ground STAB. Ground wins points due to Electric immunity, while Fighting wins points due to not being utterly raped by Hydro Pump/Leaf Storm. Ultimately this one is going to come down to stat spread, movepool, and secondary typing; if CAP11 is slower than Rotom, Fighting wins. If it's faster, Ground will win. If Fighting gets Payback and Ground doesn't get any dark moves, Fighting wins. If Ground gets a secondary typing like Grass (lol), Ground wins. Calling this a Tie for now.
Zapdos: Similar situation as above. Fighting wins some points for actually being able to hit Zapdos, while Ground wins points for being immune to its primary STAB. This one also comes down to extraneous factors, basically the same as last time. If Ground is faster, Ground wins. If not, it's a Tie. Given everything though, I'd say Ground has an advantage against Zapdos, mostly because it's only threatened by a mildly powerful Hidden Power instead of a base 120+ SE hit.
Starmie: Do I need to cover this? Ground loses horribly. I suppose you could argue that Starmie can run Psychic but...no one runs Psychic on Starmie, its slots are way better used with Recover/Rapid Spin.
Tyranitar: It's going to depend on the stat spread, although Ground is not going to enjoy CB Crunch. Additionally, STAB Earth Power won't KO Tyranitar unless it's ridiculously boosted, while STAB Aura Sphere will much more easily. As far as Tyranitar is concerned they're almost completely the same in most other aspects. So Ground loses, but not as horribly.
Blissey: I mentioned this earlier, but Bold Blissey can stall out even physical variants of Ground CAP11 if it has Toxic and if CAP11 ends up with less than 100 base ATK. Special variants have no chance. Physical variants of Fighting CAP easily beat Blissey, while Special variants would do about as well as Specs Luke does. Ground loses.
Bronzong: Fighting easily wins, since it hits Bronzong neutral and not...nothing. Ground loses.
Gengar: They're both neutral to Shadow Ball (contingent on secondary typing but yeah). Fighting CAP11 will more than likely get Payback while the Ground one will not and have to rely on Fail Edge, but let's ignore that for now. If we do, Ground CAP11 has a slight advantage simply on the strength of the Electric immunity for the initial Thunderbolt. If we take probable movepool options into account then...not so much.
Jirachi: Bit of a tricky one. Ground hits it SE, but also gets hit SE by Ice Punch from the extremely popular physical choice variants. Given that it's very likely that Ice Punch will be directed at Togekiss, Ground CAP11 would actually do rather poorly. Granted if this gets any sort of reasonable bulk it won't die immediately to a couple of UNSTAB'd Ice Punches, but I'd prefer taking half damage from an attack and hitting neutrally than hitting something SE but taking double damage. Therefore, I'd say it's at a slight disadvantage just because of that shared weakness (which is more important from the perspective of synergy than "can I hit this SE").
So barring disagreements with my analysis (which I'm sure will be prolific), we can see that a Ground CAP will have advantages against certain checks but disadvantages against many others. And note that these are "checks"; for every "Togekiss can run Aura Sphere and beat X" I could easily say "And Togekiss can easily run Shadow Ball and beat Y". Togekiss's movepool is extremely diverse, meaning it makes little sense to latch on to one set and devise a partner around JUST that specific set. This is supposed to be a partner for Togekiss, not just one specific set of the many viable sets Togekiss can run.
I still don't think people realize that Aura Sphere is more or less standard on Togekiss to be useful offensively in any capacity. Who the hell would use Flying Ghost as dual types? I seriously question how much people here use Togekiss. The only time I used her offensively without it was this weird NP, Sub, Roost, Air Slash set with max SpA and 252 SpD because the rest of my team paralyzed everything and this set made standard Flamethrower Toxic Blissey harmless. Seeing as the next most common (maybe most common now) is T-Wave, yeah, Ground type > Fighting type easily.
I am actually concerned Fighting is winning this much as it just seems wrong in this case. Besides, Togekiss has a great Fighting buddy named Machamp who loves the same team style as Togekiss, deals with Ghosts decently, and loves support from Togekiss while clearing her path. But what do I know, I only based many teams around that combo.
I am actually concerned Fighting is winning this much as it just seems wrong in this case. Besides, Togekiss has a great Fighting buddy named Machamp who loves the same team style as Togekiss, deals with Ghosts decently, and loves support from Togekiss while clearing her path. But what do I know, I only based many teams around that combo.
I really think most people aren't voting on any legitimate basis for Fighting, other than the fact that Fighting itself is a great STAB option and it may make a cooler Pokemon. That's pretty flawed reasoning from where I stand, as it doesn't necessarily mean it's a great partner for Togekiss.
I still think the most important thing here is diffusing that electricity coming Togekiss's way, and coupled with a Rock resist for TTar, as well as hitting Steels like Jirachi and Gross that Togekiss might not be able to handle, we have an almost obvious winner on our hands.
Remember, even though the Fighting type basically guarantees we rip Blissey a new one, we're still getting crippled by Twave on the switch-in. Ground alleviates that completely, and if the Pokemon is strong enough or has a decent Fighting move under its belt, Blissey won't be able to stand up to it anyway. I sincerely hope we implement a way for this Pokemon to stand up to Electric attacks in general if we're not going to cover it with typing.
Then again, the secondary typing can be anything. I wouldn't object to a Ground/Fighting type.
EDIT @ Flare: Add Jolteon to that list and say Fighting loses horribly.
I still think the most important thing here is diffusing that electricity coming Togekiss's way, and coupled with a Rock resist for TTar, as well as hitting Steels like Jirachi and Gross that Togekiss might not be able to handle, we have an almost obvious winner on our hands.
Remember, even though the Fighting type basically guarantees we rip Blissey a new one, we're still getting crippled by Twave on the switch-in. Ground alleviates that completely, and if the Pokemon is strong enough or has a decent Fighting move under its belt, Blissey won't be able to stand up to it anyway. I sincerely hope we implement a way for this Pokemon to stand up to Electric attacks in general if we're not going to cover it with typing.
Then again, the secondary typing can be anything. I wouldn't object to a Ground/Fighting type.
It's funny you mentioned this, as I was think the very same thing from the start. I'm seeing a lot of theory and guesswork that really doesn't have anything to do with the way Togekiss functions or the kind of problems it has. I've made plenty of teams around Togekiss as well, and unless I was running a cleric set, there was nothing more annoying than getting hit by Twave or Tbolt paralysis. Togekiss thrives on its Serene Grace Air Slash, as without that, it would be nothing more than a mildly annoying, somewhat mediocre special attacker (kind of the way it is now, tbh).
EDIT @ Flare: Add Jolteon to that list and say Fighting loses horribly.
When saying whether Ground or Fighting is better against Rotom-A, the clear choice would be Ground. Your main argument that Fighting is a better choice is because Rotom-A can have Blizzard, Leaf Storm or Hydro Pump. The only one of those moves that is useful against BOTH Togekiss and a Ground type is Blizzard, and according to usage statistics, that is one of the least popular choices due to lower accuracy.
Plus, you know exactly what form Rotom-A is in when it switches in, and if it dares to use Leaf Storm on your Ground pokemon, you have 5 other pokemon to switch into it (including Togekiss). Sounds excellent to me. Hydro Pump is much the same.
Also, when a Ground is dealing with Tyranitar, Earthquake is MUCH better than Earth Power, so why can't the pokemon use Earthquake instead? It gets a second type it can sweep with on the special side potentially, so I don't see why it can't have a mixed attacking set (or a high enough base attack to be able to use both).
Ground may have trouble with Starmie, but I would rather have an advantage against Jolteon, Zapdos, and Rotom-A, and Ground offers more opportunities to have that advantage than Fighting, which would require an ability that might hinder its effectiveness as a partner for Togekiss.
Plus, you know exactly what form Rotom-A is in when it switches in, and if it dares to use Leaf Storm on your Ground pokemon, you have 5 other pokemon to switch into it (including Togekiss). Sounds excellent to me. Hydro Pump is much the same.
Also, when a Ground is dealing with Tyranitar, Earthquake is MUCH better than Earth Power, so why can't the pokemon use Earthquake instead? It gets a second type it can sweep with on the special side potentially, so I don't see why it can't have a mixed attacking set (or a high enough base attack to be able to use both).
Ground may have trouble with Starmie, but I would rather have an advantage against Jolteon, Zapdos, and Rotom-A, and Ground offers more opportunities to have that advantage than Fighting, which would require an ability that might hinder its effectiveness as a partner for Togekiss.
Why, why in the world are you switching Togekiss into a Rotom-A? Why? That is like switching a Skarmory into a Magnezone. Why are you counting 5 other pokemon when we're trying to make a perfect duo? What that means, essentially, is that the duo would not be perfect.
@ Baldafor
Uh, you wouldn't switch a Togekiss into a Rotom because it's just going to wreck you with Thunderbolt even if Hydro Pump does only a little damage. -2 Thunderbolt still kills after residual damage from 2 SR switchins and Leaf Storm damage, so it's not like Togekiss is safe even if you predict properly against that.
The rest of your team is not relevant when discussing Togekiss and its Perfect Mate.
We may not be able to use Earthquake effectively simply because it's possible that CAP11 will be specially oriented. Take a look at the Concept Assessment thread and you'll see why.
You don't really have an "advantage" against Jolteon because SpecsJolt can just spam HP Ice and take out both Togekiss and a ground-type CAP11 in one-two hits, just like it can with Thunderbolt. The "advantage" against Rotom-A is not really an advantage, as I pointed out above. Basically Fighting is roughly equivalent to, if not slightly better than, Ground at consistently dealing with Togekiss' prospective checks, and it does this while not having easily exploitable weaknesses or inferior offensive synergy.
Uh, you wouldn't switch a Togekiss into a Rotom because it's just going to wreck you with Thunderbolt even if Hydro Pump does only a little damage. -2 Thunderbolt still kills after residual damage from 2 SR switchins and Leaf Storm damage, so it's not like Togekiss is safe even if you predict properly against that.
The rest of your team is not relevant when discussing Togekiss and its Perfect Mate.
We may not be able to use Earthquake effectively simply because it's possible that CAP11 will be specially oriented. Take a look at the Concept Assessment thread and you'll see why.
You don't really have an "advantage" against Jolteon because SpecsJolt can just spam HP Ice and take out both Togekiss and a ground-type CAP11 in one-two hits, just like it can with Thunderbolt. The "advantage" against Rotom-A is not really an advantage, as I pointed out above. Basically Fighting is roughly equivalent to, if not slightly better than, Ground at consistently dealing with Togekiss' prospective checks, and it does this while not having easily exploitable weaknesses or inferior offensive synergy.
Voted Ground.
I voted ground for a few reasons but mainly due to that important Electric immunity. Having a core weak to Ice is rather annoying but having something to switch into Thunderbolts is a blessing. Also all those people who say that Ground does not counter rotom...YOu are correct!
Ground as a STAB does not hit Rotom for anything however the electric immunity helps vs Rotom and Co. I know that Bulky waters affect the Ground + Togekiss Combo but I do think something is needed to take electric moves. I feel that when I use Togekiss I need something to resist Eectric moves simply because you cannot switch much into a Jolteon Specs Thunderbolt. Sure many Electric pokemon run HP Ice/Grass but I feel that the immunity to Electric really benefits Togekiss here. Also in regards to Blissey 39.6% run Thunderwave being used 1% less than Toxic. Fighting types don't really like either unless they have guts are are immune to either Poison, Electric or have Magic Guard (There may be others I missed)
EDIT @ Flare
Yeah I agree with you on some points and sure, Jolt can spam HP Ice. However again, I would not switch in any fighting type into a Jolteon Thunderbolt (even if the Jolteon was not Specs) because it just does massive damage to them.
I voted ground for a few reasons but mainly due to that important Electric immunity. Having a core weak to Ice is rather annoying but having something to switch into Thunderbolts is a blessing. Also all those people who say that Ground does not counter rotom...YOu are correct!
Ground as a STAB does not hit Rotom for anything however the electric immunity helps vs Rotom and Co. I know that Bulky waters affect the Ground + Togekiss Combo but I do think something is needed to take electric moves. I feel that when I use Togekiss I need something to resist Eectric moves simply because you cannot switch much into a Jolteon Specs Thunderbolt. Sure many Electric pokemon run HP Ice/Grass but I feel that the immunity to Electric really benefits Togekiss here. Also in regards to Blissey 39.6% run Thunderwave being used 1% less than Toxic. Fighting types don't really like either unless they have guts are are immune to either Poison, Electric or have Magic Guard (There may be others I missed)
EDIT @ Flare
Yeah I agree with you on some points and sure, Jolt can spam HP Ice. However again, I would not switch in any fighting type into a Jolteon Thunderbolt (even if the Jolteon was not Specs) because it just does massive damage to them.
You do realise, this is the same reason why a lot of people are voting for Ground as well, and why the two types we have ended up with here both happen to have good STABS, and both happen to have horrendous synergy with Togekiss.
Both sides are trash talking so much, thinking up excuses for why theirs should be the type of choice, when, in truth, both types are only here because, as per usual in CAP, they're good STABs.
Why are people voting Fighting? So bulky waters, you know, the ones all over the Metagame, don't destroy the core.
Vaporeon: Walks all over this. Ground CAP11 can't touch it, and it can beat Togekiss with Surf-> Ice Beam or outstall with Toxic.
Swampert: Assumeing the mixed set, Waterfall -> Ice Beam, Togekiss will be KO'ed if it switches in and rocks are down. Neither can do much, except Togekiss flinchaxing.
Gyarados: Switches in on CAP11, threatens Waterfall, may get a free DD. Oh, and Gyarados tends to carry STONE EDGE as well, so Togekiss won't live either.
Suicune: See Gyarados, but replace DD with Calm Mind, and Stone Edge with Ice Beam.
A Ground-typed CAP11 is just set-up bait for Suicune and Gyarados, and Togekiss can't do anything against them either. This is why I voed Fighting.
Ground types are also utterly useless against Gengar, Rotom-A and Zapdos. At least Fighting-types can hit Zapdos.
Both types are bad for the concept. Both types are only here because people can't think past STAB. If people were actually thinking of synergy with Togekiss, then Steel would have won by a landslide in the first poll, because it is easily FAR better than Ground and Fighting are for Togekiss.
I've already given evidence as to why a core with CAP11 as offense, and Togekiss as support would be doomed to failure, due to Togekiss being outclassed, which only leaves duel-offense, as Fighting and Ground fail at support. Which then means Rotom/Zapdos/Genger/Bulky Waters walk all over it, based on the type chosen.
That's the last post I'm probobly going to be making, possibly in the whole of this CAP, dependant on if anything that might save this concept comes up. Or if I need to bash some heads together to stop people posting false rubbish.
Really ? Since when is Electric SE against Fighting ? Machamp with 248/0 EVs and only decent 90/80/85 defenses, takes 53.5% - 63.4% from LO Jolteon's Thunderbolt. It only seems bulky because of its flawless defensive typing, but has slightly less bulk than Salamence, and doesn't even have Intimidate. A little more bulk would be enough for Fighting type not to be 3HKOed by LO Jolteon,but with Ground, Jolteon can just use HP Ice against both Togekiss and CAP. And that's only assuming its secondary type doesn't bring an Electric resistance (which it likely will).
Fighting can be paired with any secondary typing, as it has no weakness to cover.
Ground needs to be paired with an Ice-resisting type, and none of them bring anything else to the table.
As long as it NPed on the switch, Togekiss can endure even STAB TBolts and then OHKO Rotom, Gengar and Starmie with Shadow Ball, Metagross, Jirachi, Skarmory, Bronzong and Scizor with Fire Blast/Flamethrower, or even Zapdos and Gyarados if it wanted to, with HP Rock. It just doesn't have room for these moves
Following that logic, we can just make our CAP Normal/Flying. Why, why in the world would we switch it into TBolts, Ice Beams or Stone Edges ? Oh... That's right's, it's called defensive synergy, and it's also your only argument to choose Ground. What's the point of switching with no damage into TBolts, if you get hit the coverage moves every electric type carry and also attract then are forced out by pokemons Togekiss can't switch into ? Fighting leaves no such weakness, and can easily gain an Electric resistance at little cost with Fighting/Electric.
Don't forget than Gamefreak's flavor choices don't matter when making CAP. We did make a Rock-typed fast and frail special sweeper.
Fighting is a flawless defensive type, only needs one coverage move and would make a great supporter.
It's never a good idea to assume everyone else is stupid, maybe Ground and Fighting have other advantages you didn't think of, or that Steel have problems that are more troublesome that you may think ? I support Fighting, but I wouldn't say that everyone voting for Ground do it "because it's cool". I also support a specially offensive pokemon to benefit from Togekiss' NP, and you can't say the Fighting is a good STAB. That's another reason for me to choose it : potentially great, but it would need to get passed SpA boosts to be a real offensive threat.
Just wanted to mention that the defenses of Machamp (and Salamence) are good.
Or so says my BSR applet.
Of course, Machamp's typing makes it have better defenses overall than Salamence (though Salamence has Intimidate), but we shouldn't underestimate both Pokemon's defenses. Fighting isn't weak to popular types - it actually resists some of them - while Salamence sure is.
Also, Yoki, you surely mean Thunderbolt and not Ice Beam.
Or so says my BSR applet.
Of course, Machamp's typing makes it have better defenses overall than Salamence (though Salamence has Intimidate), but we shouldn't underestimate both Pokemon's defenses. Fighting isn't weak to popular types - it actually resists some of them - while Salamence sure is.
Also, Yoki, you surely mean Thunderbolt and not Ice Beam.
I Know that Machamp survives a LO Jolteon Thunderbolt but thats not the point. The issue it that Jolteon switchs in on Togekiss and fires off a thunderbolt. Machamp is not outspeeding and dies to a second Thunderbolt. Not to meantion that regadless, taking over 50% switching in on a common Togekiss check is poor.
Granted our CAP is not based on Machamp but the point is that it would need good special defensive and HP stats to take those STAB electric moves.
Obviously its dificult to formulate an argument on damage calcs when we don't know the CAPs stats but also remember this. you con only delegate 510 EVs to a pokemon. With togekiss speed may not be important to this CAP but if you are delegating 252 EVs to HP to survive STAB thunderbolt then you don't have much diversity elseware.
And in regard to typing
If you have fighting as your Base you can have..
Fighting/Dragon
It very likely the best typing but it does give you a weaknesss to Ice which kinda defeats thee purpose of voting Fighting.
Fighting/Electric
Its nice as it gives you an Electric Resistance but does not offer other nice resistances either
Fighting/Grass
Gives you an Ice Weakness as well as a x4 weakness to Flying.
Therefore you are pretty much limited to Fighting/Electric
I am gettig a bit off topic here but really, Fighting does not have heaps of options to bond with either.
EDIT: And for all those who state "but we already have Colossoil" since we are trying to design Togekiss's partner for OU I believe that all references to other Caps should really be ignored....but thats just my opinion, do what you will.
Granted our CAP is not based on Machamp but the point is that it would need good special defensive and HP stats to take those STAB electric moves.
Obviously its dificult to formulate an argument on damage calcs when we don't know the CAPs stats but also remember this. you con only delegate 510 EVs to a pokemon. With togekiss speed may not be important to this CAP but if you are delegating 252 EVs to HP to survive STAB thunderbolt then you don't have much diversity elseware.
And in regard to typing
If you have fighting as your Base you can have..
Fighting/Dragon
It very likely the best typing but it does give you a weaknesss to Ice which kinda defeats thee purpose of voting Fighting.
Fighting/Electric
Its nice as it gives you an Electric Resistance but does not offer other nice resistances either
Fighting/Grass
Gives you an Ice Weakness as well as a x4 weakness to Flying.
Therefore you are pretty much limited to Fighting/Electric
I am gettig a bit off topic here but really, Fighting does not have heaps of options to bond with either.
EDIT: And for all those who state "but we already have Colossoil" since we are trying to design Togekiss's partner for OU I believe that all references to other Caps should really be ignored....but thats just my opinion, do what you will.
It's sad that I now regret voting for Fighting type now. If I could vote again I would have voted for Ground instead due to all the convincing arguments being made for it. It's a shame Ground isn't going to win this round though it would be a bit ironic if we ended up creating a Ground/Fighting type. Hopefully that won't be the case as it would have redundant STAB coverage.
Why not make it Fighting/Electric or Fighting/Steel to deal with many counters, give it a Dark type move, then give it the ability Limber (like Hitmonlee), or you could even go crazy with Volt Absorb?
It deals with Zapdos and Rotom-A. If it's dual type is Electric, it'll handle Jolteon. If Steel, Tyranitar won't touch it since it'll have 4x resist to rock AND dark.
It can't be paralyzed through Thunder Wave, Limber would block even Body Slam and friends and Stun Spore.
It checks Rock and Electric attacks, that's 2/3. Ground is also 2/3. If it's Fighting/Steel instead, you check Rock and Ice, still 2/3, and gets the bonus of resisting U-Turn, Pursuit, and a whole bunch of other happy stuff, in addition to blocking Toxic in case Blissey gets trigger-happy.
It isn't walled by Tar, Blissey, or bulky waters.
Flying + Fighting/Electric STAB is fantastic coverage.
Then give it some sort of recovery, such as Slack Off or Recover.
The answer is clearly Fighting.
It deals with Zapdos and Rotom-A. If it's dual type is Electric, it'll handle Jolteon. If Steel, Tyranitar won't touch it since it'll have 4x resist to rock AND dark.
It can't be paralyzed through Thunder Wave, Limber would block even Body Slam and friends and Stun Spore.
It checks Rock and Electric attacks, that's 2/3. Ground is also 2/3. If it's Fighting/Steel instead, you check Rock and Ice, still 2/3, and gets the bonus of resisting U-Turn, Pursuit, and a whole bunch of other happy stuff, in addition to blocking Toxic in case Blissey gets trigger-happy.
It isn't walled by Tar, Blissey, or bulky waters.
Flying + Fighting/Electric STAB is fantastic coverage.
Then give it some sort of recovery, such as Slack Off or Recover.
The answer is clearly Fighting.
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