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CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 7a - Secondary Ability Discussion

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This is one of the problems with CAP. We voted for an ability that does exactly what we want this CAP to do in Volt Absorb. However, the majority of people in this thread don't want to leave it at that. I find suggestions of any competitive ability ridiculous since this CAP doesn't need them. Look at Arghonaut. It has Unaware, an excellent ability that does exactly what it needs to do. It doesn't have nor need a secondary ability. However, look at Krillowatt. We gave it Trace to be a utility counter. Then what did we do? We gave it Magic Guard, one of the best abilities in the game period. What did it do? It turned Krillowatt into a Life Orb sweeper with zero drawbacks, instead of its intended utility counter. However, Arghonaut is still the same defensive tank we wanted it to be.

To sum it up: if we give this Pokemon a second competitive ability, we automatically risk it doing something other than its original intention. Thus, I believe we should go with either No Secondary Ability, or a complete flavor ability like Lightning Rod or Steadfast.
 
I propose Poison Heal. We have already helped Togekiss beat Paralysis by giving CAP11 Volt Absorb, but what about Poison? Poison is another status effect that renders Togekiss almost completely useless, keeping it from being a flinch tank or bulky sweeper. Poison also affects CAP11 and keeps it from lasting very long. Being vulnerable to Poison makes the combination more vulnerable to Blissey, who can cripple both members of the partnership with Toxic and will often force Togekiss to switch to CAP11. Keep in mind that during the playtest period, almost all Blissey will use Toxic over Thunder Wave due to CAP11 having Volt Absorb.

Poison Heal would keep CAP11 from being affected by any status effect aimed at Togekiss once CAP11's Toxic Orb is activated. This would help Togekiss greatly, since Togekiss is so often a target of status. If CAP11's Toxic Orb is not activated, CAP11 can still switch into Blissey's Toxic with impunity and force Blissey out. Making CAP11 a status absorber with Poison Heal would benefit the concept by making status moves less common and making Blissey less useful. Also, the 12.5% healing from Poison Heal is a good enough effect that it would make people want to use Poison Heal over Volt Absorb. This, however, leaves the duo vulnerable to Electric types, so there is a trade-off involved. In conclusion, Poison Heal would be a good secondary ability on CAP11 because it would help resolve Togekiss's status issues.
 
^Nice timing. Suffice to say that I don't like Poison Heal for the same reason I rejected it last time.

Thick Fat is just another defensive ability when CAP 11 is made as a Special Attacker, not a wall.

Defensive typings and abilities benefit attackers. Look at Tyranitar and Lucario.

I'd also like to say that I do mostly agree with tennisace, which is why I picked relatively tame abilities as possibilities but didn't go so far as to say that I'd choose those over NSA. I just wanted to show which ones I'd bother with exploring, if any at all.
 
I'm rather surprised about all this talk involving Lightning Rod. The first ever case of a CAP Pokemon gaining a ability not because it's competitively useful but because we felt like giving it something for fun. Hopefully this kind of thing will continue in future CAP projects.

I agree with most people in that we should either go with no ability or some kind of useless but flavorful ability so it could appear to be more "Pokemon like." Lightning Rod as my vote just for the sheer humor factor.

Lightning Rod absorbs electric attacks WITHOUT healing or getting a boost of any kind
Lightning Rod doesn't actually absorbs electric attacks, it just redirect them to the user. I'm kinda surprised it doesn't block damage from electricity moves as well.
 
Let's see what Volt Absorb gives us:
A key immunity to switch in on
95% Paralysis protection
The ability to heal outside of a move

To me, this sounds fairly defensive; so why not an offensive counter part?


What does Togekiss like offensively:
Slow opponents (Paralysis)
Annoyance (Flinch, Paralysis, Confusion, etc)
Flying Weak Pokemon
NOT Rock/Steel/Electric
NOT being statused

We already cover the last two via typing and Volt Absorb so that basically leaves us Paralysis and Annoyance.

I propose Serene Grace to use with, say, Force Palm (paralyzing Ground types!) as that helps CAP11 mesh with the team style Togekiss likes and support Togekiss at the same time. Guts and Quick Feet also work as flat out offense but Quick Feet is sort of redundant with Paralysis.
 
I'm liking Inner Focus a bit more than Steadfast now because the +1 Speed is too gimmicky and Inner Focus has some use in helping CAP11 lead, if necessary.

One other more flavorful-but-not-entirely-useless ability is Skill Link. Because CAP11 has Mad Skills. In all seriousness it does allow it some good Sub-breaking ability with Rock Blast/Bone Rush/Arm Thrust, letting it take down things like SubRoost Zapdos and SubTran more easily since Togekiss has trouble dealing with them once they set up.
 
Why does CAP11's only role have to be "Togekiss' partner"? It seems to me that the goal of this CAP is to have two "good-but-not-great" pokemon who, when used together are fantastic. Lightningrod and co. are silly, I dislike Thick Fat because the only thing that would even Ice Beam Togekiss is...Starmie, maybe Vaporeon, and neither of them are of particular danger to the specially-bulky duo, plus Starmie carries TBolt more often.

Ergo, we need an ability that allows CAP11 to stand alone on teams. Like Unburden. Think about it. Unburden makes CAP11 the fastest pokemon around. Given his access to Bulk Up, reasonable bulk, and three useful resistances, you need only to give him a (Lum/Chople) Berry to have an extremely fast sweeper with two great STABs, but still has enough counters to make this unfavorable on most teams. That, too me, defines "Good-but-not-great". So I support Unburden.
 
I propose Poison Heal. We have already helped Togekiss beat Paralysis by giving CAP11 Volt Absorb, but what about Poison? Poison is another status effect that renders Togekiss almost completely useless, keeping it from being a flinch tank or bulky sweeper. Poison also affects CAP11 and keeps it from lasting very long. Being vulnerable to Poison makes the combination more vulnerable to Blissey, who can cripple both members of the partnership with Toxic and will often force Togekiss to switch to CAP11. Keep in mind that during the playtest period, almost all Blissey will use Toxic over Thunder Wave due to CAP11 having Volt Absorb.

Poison Heal would keep CAP11 from being affected by any status effect aimed at Togekiss once CAP11's Toxic Orb is activated. This would help Togekiss greatly, since Togekiss is so often a target of status. If CAP11's Toxic Orb is not activated, CAP11 can still switch into Blissey's Toxic with impunity and force Blissey out. Making CAP11 a status absorber with Poison Heal would benefit the concept by making status moves less common and making Blissey less useful. Also, the 12.5% healing from Poison Heal is a good enough effect that it would make people want to use Poison Heal over Volt Absorb. This, however, leaves the duo vulnerable to Electric types, so there is a trade-off
No. Poison Heal is broken on anything but Breloom. We're just lucky its stats aren't good and its movepool is shallow.

Besides, don't need a status blocker because Togekiss has Heal Bell. If you don't want to use it, put it on something else, or just accept the fact that Toxic will beat it. Attempting to make this duo an impregnable fortress is both futile and unnecessary. Plus, if you take the secondary ability, you lose out on Volt Absorb, and by extension, Electric types.

No secondary ability

This is about as good as it's going to get. Don't ruin it.
 
I like the idea of Skill Link. Probably not a superior ability in most cases but it has its uses. Moves that grant the ability to break a sub and deal damage in the same turn are extremely uncommon in OU. It'd help make CAP11 a bit more unpredictable and help it take on a few more threats to Togekiss.
 
I support no secondary ability, considering that we cover Electric-types way better with Volt Absorb than we could with anything else, we cover Rock with the typing, and Ice barely needs addressing. The only way to not get a pointless ability will be to add an incredibly powerful one (such as Compoundeyes and No Guard to give a significant power boost, or Poison Heal). If we do that, we encourage this thing to break it's best synergy with Togekiss and instead look for teammates that support it while it uses Focus Blast or abuses healing.

I think the no secondary ability and flavor people need to agree, or else the "Volt Absorb is good enough" votes will be split.
 
I'm a little torn here. On the one hand, Volt Absorb takes care of most of the duo's problems, and is probably good enough. On the other hand, Togekiss can fill a few different roles and would probably want its partner to do the same.

I'm gonna say that if we have a secondary ability, it should be one that supports CAP11's physical attacks and makes it worth mixing to break special walls or even going purely physical. I like Hustle for that, the flavor is nice, and high-risk-high-reward play has always appealed to me. Skill Link helps with the Sub problem, but only if Rock Blast and Arm Thrust are included. Guts is nice and helps sponge status.

On a less viable note, Dark/Fighting is crying out for Anger Point, and given a 4x resist to Night Slash and (more importantly to Togekiss) a resist to Stone Edge, CAP11 can find a crit or two it'll survive.

All that being said, not sure what the hell I'm in favor of per se, just throwing some stuff out there.
 
I support:

1. Guts - So Cap11 can make use of fighting stab of a meh base attack
2. Syncrhonize - Switch in and eat a T-wave for togekiss so she can continue to airhax
3. Thick fat - It covers the other half of boltbeam
 
This is one of the problems with CAP. We voted for an ability that does exactly what we want this CAP to do in Volt Absorb. However, the majority of people in this thread don't want to leave it at that. I find suggestions of any competitive ability ridiculous since this CAP doesn't need them. Look at Arghonaut. It has Unaware, an excellent ability that does exactly what it needs to do. It doesn't have nor need a secondary ability. However, look at Krillowatt. We gave it Trace to be a utility counter. Then what did we do? We gave it Magic Guard, one of the best abilities in the game period. What did it do? It turned Krillowatt into a Life Orb sweeper with zero drawbacks, instead of its intended utility counter. However, Arghonaut is still the same defensive tank we wanted it to be.

To sum it up: if we give this Pokemon a second competitive ability, we automatically risk it doing something other than its original intention. Thus, I believe we should go with either No Secondary Ability, or a complete flavor ability like Lightning Rod or Steadfast.

I really don't understand why any competitive ability that could actually suit the concept be automatically redicilous. I totally understand the fear that having a second ability might more easily shift CAP 11 towards being broken if the wrong abilities end up being discussed, like it did with Krillowatt.
But to say that because CAP11 doesn't need anything outside of Volt Absorb so any competitive suggestion is redicilous feels rather counter-productive to the very purpose of any discussion thread. I'm fine with people saying that NSA is the right choice because of reasoning X and Y, and I actually think NSA is a decent choice.
However, I feel there are options outside of NSA that could be discussed that I feel could benefit the concept of being a good partner to Togekiss.

I feel that any suggestions should at least be properly considered to be worthwile to the concept, and not be branded rediculous by default.
If NSA proves to better suit the concept after further discussion, that is fine. That's the whole point of a discussion thread.

Anyway, the first and foremost rather peculiar ability I would like to adress is Normalize. It's very much a one-trick pony ability and in almost all ways inferior to Volt Absorb. However, concept wise, if you really want Togekiss to be the leading sweeper, and you want an accurate way of Paralyzing threads that can't be paralyzed with Electric type TW, Normalize might actually be of some use on very rare occasions. Jolteon, Electivire and all Ground types are the most important targets for this ability.
And yes, I do realize that it's really a terrible ability for just about anything else, but even if Normalize only would be used 1% of the time, it would've still been better than NSA. I feel Normalize could aid the concept of being able to spread normal type paralysis to just about anything, with the except of ghosts.

I would also like to throw my support behind Synchronize, again for the exact same reason of Normalize. If you prefer to paralyse the opponents team to help Togekiss be the sweeper, Synchronizing is one way of getting opponents paralyzed. Static is also one of these abilities that would somewhat help spreading paralysis around. I feel that both are too unreliable to actually have much merit, but I wanted to mention them anyhow, as spreading paralysis is still one of the major aspects on how to get this concept to work.

Another concept related aspect that gets thrown around a lot is that CAP 11 is going to be a receiver of Nasty Plots through Baton Pass. If my team doesn't care much about Electric type pokemon's, I would take Suction Cups or at least Soundproof as a second abilty over Volt Absorb, to hinder phazing of the precious NP boosts.
For the same reason of keeping any boosts, Clear Body could also be a viable choice, not to stop phazing, but at least the gained boosts would not be negated by opponent inflicted stat dropping attempts, however rare they are.

Last, I would like to propose either No Guard or Compoundeyes, if only for the sake of failblast. As we don't know anything about a future movepool yet, any mention of specific moves would be poll jumping. However, there are quite a few lower accuracy moves, like Stun Spore or Zap Cannon that aid the concept through paralyses and their only flaws are their accuracy. I could mention more moves which would also benefit both options, but that could be talked about later, when one of these two options get chosen or not.


Personally, I favor Normalize. It's very much so an very uncommon ability and it has never been seen before on a pokemon with decent stats. It would teach us quite some bit about this almost never mentioned ability as well as aid the concept with almost non resisted Thunder Waves.
I'd also be fine with No Guard or No secondary ability.
Abilities just for flavor would be new, but I don't really see the point of that, and for simplication sake, I would vote for NSA anyway if any of the above more competitive options don't make it to the poll.
 
Firstly, this CAP already has a decent, near-perfect ability, for it's use.

So, my full support goes towards No Secondary Ability / Non-Competive Ability.

Thick Fat
is worth a mention, as Togekiss is not exactly a FAN of Ice-type attacks, or, for that matter, jumping up and down at the prospect of Infernape or Heatran's Fire Blasts. It's also a good enough ability that it may push out Volt Absorb at times. However, the upredictability bout CAP11's resistances in this case may be too much.

Static can help Togekiss is another way. Togekiss is slow, it's a fact. So, paralysing things which attack CAP11 with contact attacks might be a decent little niche. It has some use, but would probobly fall into non-compeitive, still, should CAP11 get a secondary ability at all, I'd like to see Static.

I do NOT support No-Guard. Without a doubt, this will create the Killowatt syndrome. 100% accurate STAB focus Blasts will hurt, and it may cause CAP11 to be used as a Specs cleaner/sweeper, evenmoreso since Ghosts can't switch in on the first attack for fear of Dark Pulse.
 
I'm going to suggest a bunch of flavor abilities that are awesome, but might have some remote value in some obscure situations. All are outclassed hardcore by Volt Absorb, but having these would be fun for niche roles and flavor, just because we can and this would be an awesome precedent to set. (Having a flavor ability)

Insomnia / Vital Spirit

For fun! I don't know why it would be useful, because CAP11 can't switch into Breloom anyway and Roserade does mad damage with Leaf Storm, but it's cute. Maybe if you have incredible prediction skills you would consider using this, but still, probably not. I could see it making sense from a flavor perspective that whatever art concept is chosen have a Vital Spirit or be a Insomniac and not be able to sleep. Lots of precedent exists here for it having either one based on typing.

Steadfast

Again, a pretty useless ability, but there is precedent for Fighting-type Pokemon getting this. (Gallade / Lucario) It's a cool ability, has a cool name, makes sense on the typing, and yeah, that's about all I've got here.

Inner Focus

This is in the same boat as Steadfast. There's lots of precedent for this sort of typing getting the ability, and it might be useful in rare instances where you somehow survive an opposing Togekiss's Air Slash, you get hit by Fake Out, or run into some Iron Head spam. Either way, this ability is mostly terrible compared to Volt Absorb, but it makes a lot of sense for flavor purposes.

Lightningrod

I already explained why this is awesome, but I want to reiterate because some people don't actually read posts and so forth. Lightningrod fits the flavor of already having Volt Absorb perfectly, and has niche value in that whenever SB2 comes out and we have CAP doubles, Togekiss and CAP11 can be used together and Togekiss will never get hit by targeted Electric-type attacks! (This really isn't that useful) Anyway, it's an awesome flavor ability in particular because it does absolutely nothing in singles. (Yay)
 
i like inner focus, it doesn't derail this caps original direction, and in fact, it helps prepare it for opposing togekiss who will run rampart.
 
I don't think we should not give CAP 11 a secondary ability. The more variety the better right?

With all due respect, this is exactly the kind of thinking that, imo, should be eradicated from the CAP community as far as competitive aspects are concerned. Variety is nice, but more can be worse. We applied this "more variety = better" mentality in the last two CAPs at this stage and both of them turned into generic sweepers because that's what they did best thanks to their secondary abilities. We also applied that mentality to the movepool process and look at the result of that. We need to stop putting shitloads of toppings on our ice cream. What's wrong with just sprinkles?

In fact, I do genuinely wonder why a second ability is necessary for CAP11 to be a perfect Togekiss partner. Yes, there is the chance of us creating a perfect Togekiss partner and then it partnering better with another pokemon, in which case that would probably be Togekiss' fault for being outclassed or unviable. However, if CAP11 ends up doing better alone than as a partner to any pokemon, then we fucked up.

Therefore, I am now going to say no competitively viable secondary ability until I see solid logical reasoning or conclusive evidence that a secondary ability is necessary. I really wasn't going to get too involved in this CAP after I pissed off the TLs in the last two, but this had to be said.
 
Since I see no need for a real secondary ability, I support the flavor abilities of Lightning Rod orInner Focus. Neither are worth using over Volt Absorb, but at least we don't get a situation like Krillowatt and Kitsunoh. But that's not what I'm focusing on with this post. Here's why all the other suggested abilities are bad:

No Guard
Seriously guys, do we want another pokemon like Machamp. Unless CAP11 doesn't get DynamicPunch, then, thats all you are going to see. Even if it doesn't get DynamicPunch, you will have to deal with perfect accuracy Focus Blasts. Neither set would need Togekiss's support, nor would it help Togekiss.

Guts/Hustle
These are more abilities that I'm not getting. They both offer serious power increases. The only reasoning I've heard is either "we gave CAP11 a defensive ability, so lets give it an offensive one" or "Togekiss has it" (for Hustle). Hustle is pretty awful competitively and not as good as Lightningrod in flavor, so adding it would be pointless. Guts however is never something to be taken lightly. Swellow has the same base attack and an awful movepool. This thing will likely get a much better movepool, and it can actually take a hit. So no to Guts as it does not really contribute to the concept.
 
After reading through (most) of the discussion that has preceeded this post, and I will admit I am always welcoming of another competitive choice, you have to sit back and say CAP 11 is better with No Secondary Ability.

CAP 11 has a role. CAP 11 is equipped to fufill this role. Why are we trying to add to, what is in an ability context, a fufilled concept. It takes zaps on the switch. It covers Togekiss' primary weakness. The bulk of posts (which are suggesting options) are no longer supporting abilities which are more practical and improve synergy.

That said, if we must go with a secondary ability, go for Thick Fat. It's an alternative, it isn't overpowered. But who would seriously drop Volt Absorb for Thick Fat. If anyone could seriously convince me they would run a set like that, which would be primarily used with Togekiss... well, I'd be suprised.

VOTE NO SECONDARY ABILITY.
 
I'm a bit confused here. In the primary ability discussion some posters reiterated that flavor has nothing to do with the selection of abilities, and that the typing of CAP11 was merely incidental to ability considerations. It was under this reasoning that a fighting/dark type was given volt absorb. Now, there are people pushing for abilities for flavor reasons, running counter to the mentality that appears to have prevailed in the primary discussion. So which is it? Are abilities chosen for flavor reasons, like the Gamefreak universe, or chosen for purely competitive reasons?

I'm happy with things going either way, but I was under the impression that flavor either mattered or it didn't. So I find it odd that we have one ability that doesn't fit flavor, and now things are being suggested because a fighting/dark type can understandably have something. This is crazy. If you feel that no secondary ability is needed, then why vouch for one at all?

I'd also like clarification on what is meant by a "competitive ability." My interpretation is that it refers to an ability that has use in battles. So honey gather would evidently be non-competitive. But then there's the suggestion that steadfast is pure flavor. Not so; steadfast definitely has use in battles. I'm not necessarily opposed to a second ability, but many seem to believe that we can throw logic out the window and add whatever we feel like at this point. If the point of this project is to learn something about the metagame, what is there to learn if we slap on abilities that will not see use or that have no impact on battles?
 
I'm a bit confused here. In the primary ability discussion some posters reiterated that flavor has nothing to do with the selection of abilities, and that the typing of CAP11 was merely incidental to ability considerations. It was under this reasoning that a fighting/dark type was given volt absorb. Now, there are people pushing for abilities for flavor reasons, running counter to the mentality that appears to have prevailed in the primary discussion. So which is it? Are abilities chosen for flavor reasons, like the Gamefreak universe, or chosen for purely competitive reasons?

Abilities are chosen based on competitive reasoning. The competitive reasoning for "non-competitive abilities" is simply that another competitive ability isn't needed at all. In a way, a non competitive ability is competitive.


I'd also like clarification on what is meant by a "competitive ability." My interpretation is that it refers to an ability that has use in battles. So honey gather would evidently be non-competitive. But then there's the suggestion that steadfast is pure flavor. Not so; steadfast definitely has use in battles.

A competitive ability is an ability that has a specific, common purpose, and helps the Pokemon achieve a goal.

Steadfast does NOT help this Pokemon achieve a goal because this Pokemon is unable to survive most flinching moves, in addition to outspeeding the users of them. The only way Togekiss/Jirachi will outspeed this Pokemon is with a Choice Scarf, and Togekiss OHKO's 100% of the time anyway. So Steadfast is not competitive in this Pokemon's case because the majority of the time it will not help the Pokemon.

I'm not necessarily opposed to a second ability, but many seem to believe that we can throw logic out the window and add whatever we feel like at this point. If the point of this project is to learn something about the metagame, what is there to learn if we slap on abilities that will not see use or that have no impact on battles?

So the impact of Volt Absorb isn't enough? Because I thought the argument for Volt Absorb was that it was a non-broken way of synergizing with Togekiss, which accomplishes a part of the concept. Why do we need another ability that does something different than accomplishing the concept? I'd rather see a flavor ability than another competitively useful ability, since the more we put on this Pokemon, the more it strays from the concept, as seen in Krillowatt.
 
I just don't see how giving this Pokemon Thick Fat or Intimidate would somehow break the concept. The only thing I can see it doing is allow CAP11 to partner with Togekiss more effectively in the context of an actual team (if said team happens to have Electric-types covered).

It's not like people are saying "hai lets have pure power as our secondary ability", most of the abilities suggested here either have little to no possible side effect besides increasing synergy with Togekiss or are almost completely useless competitively.

Let's not compare this to Krillowatt. Anyone who was paying attention in that ability thread noticed the large number of people who were against Magic Guard because it was rather clearly going to incline Krill towards sweeping.

And unlike movepools, there's nothing unprecedented about having two abilities, while there is significant precedent against an average Pokemon having a better movepool than Mewtwo.
 
I don't think it is necessarily true that adding a competitive secondary ability will always cause the CAP to stray away from the concept. It is just necessary to choose the right secondary ability. Comparing any secondary ability that we would consider giving CAP 11 with Krilowatt's Magic Guard is probably not accurate; afterall, Magic Guard is a huge ability, and easily overshadows Trace.

However, on this CAP we are looking at much less ridiculous abilities. We are looking at things like Thick Fat that simply enhance the partnership rather than going off in entirely different directions.

Staraptor Call has mentioned that Blissey's poison can be annoying if Togekiss passes to CAP 11. Instead of something potentially ridiculous like Poison Heal, I propose that we instead consider something like Marvel Scale (flavor-changed if necessary), which allows for an errant poisoning to become improved defense against priority.

I kind of also like the idea of Soundproof or Suction Cups to prevent roar or all phazing respectively, but it is probably too good.
 
I might just be echoing what tennis and a few others have already said. But see, the issue here needs to be approached from a different angle.

The first question to answer is, "Is Volt Absorb enough for CAP11 to fulfill its purpose?" The answer, overwhelmingly, is "Yes!" Volt Absorb gives us exactly the type of defensive safety we need by allowing us to cover (free of cost) Togekiss' biggest weakness.

When we already have enough, let us not take an unnecessary risk that doesn't offer much payoff towards helping it fit the concept. Especially because we have a recent history of straying from the concept, it is important that we err on the side of caution this time. What we already have right now is a near PERFECT setup for CAP11 to flourish in its role. It's best that we stand aside and take a breather for this step. No Secondary Ability is the best way to go.
 
Definitely seconding Thick Fat straight out, but giving how most people are going to go with Volt Absorb, an opponent facing a Togekiss in the future could predict a CAP11 switch and use a super-effective or otherwise hindering move. So we might want another ability that could deal with this.

For my other suggestion, I'm going with Static. Most of the moves that are either super-effective (Flying/Fighting)or normally-effective-but-still-highpower are physical, so a small chance of paralysis is always nice. Still, Volt Absorb will probably be the favored ability, and CAP11 might not have enough of a chance to survive an SE move with only a 30 percent chance of paraly, but Static isn't a bad plan B.
 
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