Through this series of polls, we'll be voting as a community on which concept we'd like to pursue for CAP 18. Make sure to read through each concept thoroughly; it is imperative that you understand what you're voting for here. Our slate of eight concepts was chosen by our Topic Leader, DetroitLolcat, from the Concept Submissions thread. See his concluding remarks here: link~
----
New!: All competitive polls will consist of two rounds of ranked voting (24 hours each). In the first round, the preliminary ranking of candidates by PBV will be decided. The top 3 (or 4 in the case of a tie for 3rd place) will move on to the second round of ranked voting. The Policy Review discussion that lead to this change is here.
----
This will be a Preferential Block Vote (PBV) (a form of Instant Runoff Voting which re-runs the counting, each time removing the previously top-ranked candidate in order to determine the 2nd most preferred, 3rd most preferred, etc.), the details of which are outlined here and here. This is a ranked vote: order does matter! You can upvote your favourites and downvote your least favourites. You may choose to rank as many or as few options as you like, but we encourage you to rank as many candidates as possible to ensure your preferences are taken into account.
Bold your votes and nothing else! A typical vote might look like the following:
Please post only your votes in this thread. Do not respond to other posts, or your posts will be moderated and you may be warned. You are allowed to say whatever you like in relation to your vote at the bottom of your post, but please do not look to begin a discussion. Keep those comments to #cap on IRC.
IMPORTANT: When voting, use only the name of the author! The list of possible votes include:
Dummy007
TRC.
Birkal
capefeather
Lasagne
srk1214
Clankenator007
TooMuchSugar
And here are their concepts:
paintseagull edit 2:37pm EST: Just fixed some username spelling problems in the slate, but don't worry, the vote counter doesn't care about spaces and periods, so all votes up to now are still fine.
----
CAP 18 so far:
Leadership Team:
DetroitLolcat - Topic Leader
PttP - Ability Leader
jas61292 - Typing Leader
ginganinja - Movepool Leader
srk1214 - Stats Leader
----
New!: All competitive polls will consist of two rounds of ranked voting (24 hours each). In the first round, the preliminary ranking of candidates by PBV will be decided. The top 3 (or 4 in the case of a tie for 3rd place) will move on to the second round of ranked voting. The Policy Review discussion that lead to this change is here.
----
This will be a Preferential Block Vote (PBV) (a form of Instant Runoff Voting which re-runs the counting, each time removing the previously top-ranked candidate in order to determine the 2nd most preferred, 3rd most preferred, etc.), the details of which are outlined here and here. This is a ranked vote: order does matter! You can upvote your favourites and downvote your least favourites. You may choose to rank as many or as few options as you like, but we encourage you to rank as many candidates as possible to ensure your preferences are taken into account.
Bold your votes and nothing else! A typical vote might look like the following:
Most Preferred
Second Most Preferred
Third Most Preferred
Fourth Most Preferred
Fifth Most Preferred
Any comments that the voter has would go below the votes in non-bold text. Bold text is used to determine what the user's votes are, so none of the supplementary text should be in bold.
CAP uses automated scripts to count votes. For this reason, it is very important for all ballots to be submitted correctly. If you do not compose a legal ballot, your post will be subject to moderation.
- The scripts count bold words in ballots, so do NOT bold anything in your ballot other than the options you are voting for.
- Do NOT put any formatting other than bold in your post.
- Only one option per line.
- Spelling of options must be EXACTLY correct and must match the spelling listed above.
- Capitalization and spaces are ignored by the vote counting scripts, but you probably should not depend on it.
Please post only your votes in this thread. Do not respond to other posts, or your posts will be moderated and you may be warned. You are allowed to say whatever you like in relation to your vote at the bottom of your post, but please do not look to begin a discussion. Keep those comments to #cap on IRC.
IMPORTANT: When voting, use only the name of the author! The list of possible votes include:
Dummy007
TRC.
Birkal
capefeather
Lasagne
srk1214
Clankenator007
TooMuchSugar
And here are their concepts:
Concept: Major Third
General Description: A Pokemon that forms an effective offensive or defensive core with two lesser-used OU Pokemon.
Justification: Cores have always been an integral part of the metagame, whether you're running Talonflame/Staraptor to brute force everything, Slowbro/Amoonguss/Heatran for Regenerator-Leftovers stalling, or a whole team of Dragons + Magnezone. We've previously explored what it takes to make a successful partnership in CAP11 (Voodoom), but the metagame (and the simulator!) has changed dramatically since Voodoom's creation. I would also like to up the ante a little bit: Instead of just one, can we now take TWO Pokemon and find their missing piece? Whether we opt to build on an established two-Pokemon partnership or choose two previously unrelated Pokemon and put them together, I think that we can certainly find a Voodoom for a more offensive time.
Questions to Be Answered:
Explanation:
- How do effective cores in the current metagame differ fundamentally from the cores of previous metagames, if at all?
- Is synergy as important (relative to power) in the current metagame as it previously has been? (That is, has power creep rendered synergy unnecessary?)
- What differences are there between tailoring a Pokemon to two others and tailoring it to one? What else must be considered besides weaknesses and resistances?
- How does the addition of a Pokemon to a core change what other Pokemon can be effectively run alongside the core?
- Does Team Preview make running cores more difficult?
- Is it possible to create a core uncounterable by a single Pokemon? (For example, Celebi/Heatran/Jellicent was a very effective BW core that got slaughtered by Tyranitar. Can a core force opponents to counter it with another core?)
- Tagging onto the above, what is required to "counter-core" a core? What combination of offensive and defensive characteristics among "counter-core" members achieves this?
The hardest step in creating this CAP would almost undoubtedly be choosing which two Pokemon to pair up. Personally, I've enjoyed running Gourgeist-Super and Scarf Rotom-H together, but I haven't yet found a Water-type that can totally complete the two. The closest I've gotten is probably either Tentacruel or Gastrodon. Something that can handle Tyranitar, Mega Venu, and Specially Defensive Heatran equally well would certainly be nice here, but Tentacruel just isn't bulky enough (or maybe I just don't get lucky enough with Scald burns, idk) and Gastrodon is totally crippled by Toxic (and Mega Venu) and can't actually hit Tyranitar that hard. In turn, any core with a specially-oriented cleric (say Sylveon/Tyranitar or even Blissey/Tyranitar) can handle this core- but none of them can do it alone. (Sylveon and Blissey can be Tricked a Scarf, Ttar and Mega Venu can be Burned by WoW/Scald, Heatran can't stay in on the Water-type and won't enjoy a Scarf, either.) That's the kind of thing I'm going for.
Heck, we could even pick two random 'mons (e.g., Diggersby and Mega Gyarados) and try and make them work if we want more of a challenge. The majority of the customization of this CAP will probably come from the partner-choosing step; once we've settled that, the rest should be fairly straightforward. The one thing I absolutely want to avoid, though, is a third core member that can be run very reliably outside of the core. For example, if you were running Voodoom without either Zapdos or Togekiss, you weren't using it correctly. On the other hand, you can easily run Heatran outside of JelliCeleTran and have it perform really well.
Also, I think "lesser-used OU" should both include some upper-tier UUs/BLs (such as Kyu-B, Slowbro, and Metagross) and exclude anything above about #30 on the ladder (Volcarona). This way, we don't end up building something that makes, say, Tyranitar/Excadrill/CAP unwallable or Rotom-W/Gliscor/CAP unbreakable.
Concept: Why so slow?
General Description: A Pokemon that uses a combination of stats, typing, ability, and movepool to be able to set up the Sticky Web entry hazard consistently throughout a match, threaten the common Pokemon that could remove Sticky Web from play, and take advantage of Sticky Web itself.
Justification: Sticky Web is an interesting new entry hazard introduced in the recent games X and Y. It lowers the opponents Speed stat by one stage when they switch in, unless they are a Flying-type Pokemon or they have the ability Levitate. This has massive potential, particularly to aid a sweeper. So why is it rarely seen in OU? To put it simply, the only Pokemon that can learn Sticky Web have vast amounts of flaws. Smeargle can learn every move, but it is incredibly frail and therefore can not set up the hazard consistently throughout a match, allowing users of the moves Rapid Spin and Defog to clear the hazard. Galvantula has a good offensive typing, but like Smeargle, it is also frail and lacks switch-in opportunities. Shuckle has almost nonexistent offensive presence. Leavanny has a crippling 4x weakness to a common offensive typing. Ariados, Kricketune, and Masquerain are just plain unviable in OU. In order to explore the potential of Sticky Web, it requires a user of the move that can take advantage of it to the fullest.
Questions to be Answered:
Explanation: The presence of a Pokemon that uses Sticky Web to all of its possible advantages is a great way of exploring the usefulness of Speed stats as a whole. The most common users of Rapid Spin are Excadrill, Starmie, and Forretress. The most common users of Defog are [Mega] Scizor, Latios, Latias, and Gliscor. Now, there are many possible ways of threatening a Pokemon. For example, you could take advantage of type coverage. Starmie, Latias, and Latios are weak to Dark-, Ghost-, and Bug-type moves. Excadrill, Forretress, and [Mega] Scizor are weak to Fire-type attacks. Gliscor is weak to Ice-type attacks, and has poor Special Defense. Then there is the possibility of not threatening the Pokemon with attacking moves, but simply preventing it from using Rapid Spin or Defog. Immediately, a Ghost-type comes to mind as it prevents the usage of Rapid Spin, but Defog is becoming more and more popular now, and while there are very few ways of preventing this, there are ways of making an opponent weary of using it. Defiant and Competitive work well in this regard, as they risk the possibility of a Pokemon sweeping their team at the price of removing the hazard. In terms of specific Speed benchmarks for this Pokemon to take advantage of Sticky Web itself, this is something that needs to be researched, weighing in the benchmarks that specific Pokemon sit at, and seeing which is the point where things are considered "fast" and "very fast". Finally, ways of ensuring that this Pokemon can set up Sticky Web consistently is an important aspect of this Pokemon. High defensive stats is a simple option, but ability and movepool can also be helpful is this regard, specifically the ability to "force switches", guaranteeing setup opportunities in most cases, or the ability to switch in consistently without fear of being worn down. Recovery is also an option in this scenario.
- What determines the reason why a Pokemon can not set up a hazard consistently? Is it because of low defensive stats and typing, or the fact that it doesn't force Pokemon out from an offensive point of view.
- What sort of Pokemon would benefit from the presence of Sticky Web on the opponents side of the field?
- What levels of Speed would a Pokemon need to have to benefit from Sticky Web itself, while also not being "fast enough already"?
- Would this increase the viability of the common offensive Pokemon that are "slow" be metagame standards?
- What does it take to potentially prevent the use of Rapid Spin or Defog, that one Pokemon can do within itself?
- To threaten a user of Rapid Spin or Defog, will it do it in an offensive manner? The word "threaten" is somewhat ambiguous, however, will threatening a Pokemon defensively result in an inability to prevent that Pokemon from removing the hazard?
- What Pokemon severely suffer from Sticky Web on their side of a field; what Pokemon require their specific Speed stat so much that being lower than it decreases their viability immensely?
Name: Fully Uncompetitive
General Description: Design a Pokemon that is deemed and defined as uncompetitive in the current Overused metagame. Ultimately, discuss and discover strategies which remove control from the players' grasp.
Justification: This Pokemon should not have a positive effect on the metagame, sorry friends; we must forge a devil. What this submission brings to the table, however, is a large knowledge gain on how exactly 'uncompetitiveness' is defined in competitive Pokemon play. With the current heated discussion on these elements in Overused, now would be the ideal time to explore which facets of play are qualified not as luck, but as uncompetitive.
Questions To Be Answered:
- What exactly does the word 'uncompetitive' mean in terms of competitive Pokemon? How does it differ from 'luck'?
- Which strategies are considered uncompetitive? What makes them that way?
- Are there varying degrees of uncompetiveness between differing strategies? If so, what are they?
- Are uncompetitive elements desirable in a metagame? To what degree?
- Through which means can a player remove uncompetitive elements from matches? Is this possible?
- Do uncompetitive elements come and go in phases? If so, is this pattern predictable?
Explanation: Uncompetitive elements in competitive Pokemon is neither insular to Smogon nor new. Pokemon Online and PokeBattle have both considered these elements in their tiering decisions, and Smogon has joined the fray within this generation. Furthermore, uncompetitiveness has been considered from as far back as Generation IV tiering with the banning of Shaymin-S and Deoxys-S. This topic has come up time and time again in our competitive metagames, and I believe it's about time that the Create-A-Pokemon Project tackled it head on.
In my eyes, approaching this topic from a perspective of "banishing uncompetitiveness" is trite and nigh impossible. Rather, we should be viewing this through the lens of a devil's advocate. This concept encourages us to get creative with how we leave a match to the hands of fate. Sure, we could approach this from a perspective of SwagPlay or flinch hax (please, let's not). But the underlying questions here dig much deeper. What exactly defines uncompetitiveness? Are there levels of uncompetitiveness? Do these tactics reach a diminishing return of usefulness at any particular point?
Finally, I am most interested in the philosophy of 'uncompetitive phases' in Pokemon. The first example to reflect on is Wobbuffet. It was banned in DPP OU because it did its job so effectively that it made matches pointless. Sure we've had power creep, but can that solely explain the sudden dip in Wobbuffet usage? Shed Shell isn't widespread by any means, and Wobbuffet's movepool hasn't changed in the slightest. And what about Pokemon such as Jirachi and Thundurus, both of which rely on some uncompetitive traits to win matches? How does Deoxys-S fit into the mix; it didn't rely on hax, but it was definitely considered uncompetitive when banned. Speed ties... guaranteed outcomes... Where is the consistency here? I'm not only curious on tackling this concept by creating a nefarious Pokemon to cause dicey situations, but also greatly interested gathering some data on deeming a Pokemon as 'uncompetitive' throughout history.
There's much to discuss here. I believe this concept combines the fun of creating a Pokemon that everyone will loathe with the thoughtfulness of observing our past and predicting the future. Let's see what it takes to be considered fully uncompetitive.
Name: Hunting Beast
General Description: This Pokemon aims to counter ONE Pokemon in ANY team.
Justification: Concepts like Krilowatt's "Utility Counter" and Necturna's "Sketch Artist" have placed an emphasis on controlled versatility. However, the notion of controlled versatility frequently comes into conflict with the need for a Pokemon to have reasonably well-defined checks and counters. This concept is an attempt to marry the two by placing the emphasis on "hunting down" a key member of the opposing team, rather than trying to possess some kind of inherent versatility. This may also shed some light on the notion of "counterteaming" and help to mitigate its effects. Ideally, in any given match, it should be able to stymie one opposing Pokemon while being checked or countered by the others. While such an ideal is probably unreachable, it couldn't hurt to try our best!
Questions To Be Answered:
Explanation:
- What existing Pokemon sell themselves on their ability to counter other Pokemon? How does this work out for them and why?
- How valuable is a Pokemon's ability to counter a Pokemon in an arbitrary opposing team?
- What similarities exist across different team archetypes? How can these similarities be exploited?
- How should this Pokemon's profile of threats be constructed? Should we go after versatile "glues" or specialized roles?
- What kind of build is best suited for such a role?
- Can this Pokemon act as an "equalizer" and make certain teams more viable and less susceptible to counterteaming?
- Will teams feel a strong need to adapt to this Pokemon, and if so, how can this Pokemon respond to such adaptations?
I suspect that a lot of people will think of Pokemon like Rotom Wash, Heatran and Ditto when thinking about this concept. Indeed, they do seem to fulfill this concept to an extent. Rotom Wash is often said to be good largely because of its ability to chase Talonflame around 5 months, as well as check a lot of other Pokemon. Heatran is similar with its formidable palette of resistances. Choice Scarf Ditto's often used as "insurance" against certain runaway sweepers. I suppose it's like countersurveillance. "He's hiding here, Imma hiding here!" However, all three kind of try to be "catch-all" utility counters, and Ditto isn't even all that great at it against anything bulky that doesn't resist its own STAB. Genesect, as well, was banned because its massive coverage and power allowed it to deal with a vast range of Pokemon. This concept is aimed more at teams than at Pokemon, gunning down specific targets rather than outgunning everything.
(By the way, you know how much money Genesect cost? I said, "bro just cut som-" and Dudley said, "Nooooo money money money." I said, "You know what, I swear to god man, honestly man?")
Anyway, I suppose this concept is kind of similar to DarkSlay's concept. The main difference is that his concept focuses on a Pokemon's role in a team, whereas mine focuses on roles in the opposing team. This concept is also more "objective" in our ability to assess it, while retaining a factor of perhaps seeking out the unknown. My hope is that this concept encourages participants to have a better understanding of the kinds of teams that are out there, and how they work.
Like I said before, I'm not sure that the ideal presented by this concept is even attainable in the strictest sense, or even what that would even mean exactly. We often say that CAP is about the journey, not the destination, and that will be even more true for a concept like this. Whether this concept is chosen or not, though, I have high hopes for this project. All I know, all I know, all I know, is we'll have the best CAP in the world, even better than Prime Minister Harper.
(btw this concept has been surprisingly difficult to name, despite the simple description...)
Name: Parting Shot Pivot
General Description: A Pokemon that can use Parting Shot to success. It can be used on a slow, bulky Pokemon to give an easy switch to a frailer teammate, or on a fast Pokemon in order to reduce damage to the receiver - the idea is just to create a Pokemon that can viably use Parting Shot, and the possibilities this brings about are very interesting.
Justification: Parting Shot is one of the most interesting moves brought about in gen 6, and had a lot of potential depending on its distribution. Unfortunately, only the Pangoro family got the move, so it was never able to see any viable use in OU. This concept aims to create a Pokemon that is able to successfully use Parting Shot to assist its teammates - either by softening a blow for the receiver, or taking a hit then giving a free switch in to a frailer sweeper. I believe that creating a viable Pokemon that can use Parting Shot to effect would be very interesting for the metagame. It would be very intriguing to see the end result - what the CAP community believes the most successful way to use Parting Shot is, and how this Pokemon would be played. The effect on the metagame would also be interesting, as some Pokemon may lower in usage, while others, such as frail sweepers if we choose to go that path, would become more popular.
Questions To Be Answered:
Explanation: Pangoro is, to be frank, a bad Pokemon. Where did it go wrong? Many places - its typing, abilities, movepool etc. I hope to produce a CAP that doesn't have all these flaws, and is able to use a really cool seeming move without being a shitty Pokemon. If possible, we could also try to make this Pokemon able to check some top tier threats - I'm thinking a Rock/something type to check Charizard, as well as doing decently against both Pinsir and Thundurus - four of the five S rank threats (according to the viability rankings). I don't have much to say here honestly, except that I think it would be a really interesting CAP and that many good conversations about the metagame and the CAP in general could come out of it. It also opens many doors for a unique type combination, depending on the role we choose to fill with this Pokemon.
- What is the most successful way to use Parting Shot in OU?
- What kind of Pokemon would be most suited to using Parting Shot, and why?
- What Pokemon would ideally receive the switch from Parting Shot in what situations, and what affects this choice?
- When is it good to use Parting Shot, and when is it better to choose a different move, depending on our end product?
- Which Pokemon would this CAP affect, and how would it affect them? eg. nerfing a big threat, making a less popular Pokemon more popular
- How does this concept affect specific playstyles, such as Stall, Offense and Balanced?
Name: BWack to the Future
General Description: This Pokemon aims to promote the prominent metagame aspects of BW OU in the face of changes brought in XY.
Justification: I will be the first to admit that XY OU is a fun metagame, arguably much more enjoyable than BW OU ever was. Still, the shift between the two metagames has been massive, much bigger than the shift between DPP and BW, and this presents a ripe opportunity to explore which changes in XY were most important in causing such a radical generational metagame shift and how one could go about reversing these trends.
Questions To Be Answered:
Explanation:
- What defining aspects of BW OU are absent or decreased in importance in XY OU?
- Which changes in XY have been most important in causing these shifts? Is it the weather debuff? The introduction of Fairy type? Ghost and Dark hitting Steel neutrally? Mega Evolutions and general power creep? Defog? Knock Off? Something less obvious?
- Is it possible to promote a metagame based on one or more of these bygone characteristics in a new generation?
- If only part of the BW OU metagame could be recreated, which part would be considered most defining and/or most desirable to recreate? Weather wars? The Dragon/Steel binary? Bulky offense in general?
- Which of these generational changes to the OU metagame are directly mechanical and which are indirect and a result of other shifts?
- Since direct mechanical changes are inevitable (i.e. we can't just eliminate Fairy typing or revert Weather to permanence), how can we go about influencing indirect shifts in the metagame within the context of these new mechanics?
Large metagame shifts between generations have happened before. The shift from RBY to GSC introduced two new types and greatly increased the number of viable Pokemon such as Suicune and Skarmory, along with a slew of metagame changes, such as Spikes, Hold Items, and Special being split to SpAtk and SpDef. From GSC to ADV we added abilities and with them weather as a metagame force, along with a some important hold items such as Choice Band, and many important Pokemon. On top of that the idea of Natures and EVs were introduced, greatly complicating the metagame. From ADV to DPP we got the Physical/Special split, which was big enough that I don't even need to explain any other changes, though several others like Choice Scarf were very important.
Yet from DPP to BW, comparatively little was changed. And few of the changes were anything mechanical to preexisting elements. Instead it was mostly the general power creep of new Pokemon, the introduction of some new items and abilities, chief among them perhaps being Eviolite and Air Balloon. True, weather wars became important with DW Ninetales and Politoed providing competition for Sand and Hail, but manual sunny day and manual rain dance were already existing strategies in DPP and ADV.
This is not the case this time. The metagame shift from BW to XY is radical once more and I think it would be a good time to explore the strength of these changes and whether or not any of them are reversible with a single CAP affecting the metagame. In the questions, I alluded to what I consider the three most defining aspects of the BW metagame: weather wars, co-dominance of Dragon and Steel typings, and the general teamstyle we know as Bulky Offense. So what has changed for each of these?
Well, for weather, we all know about the debuff. Even with the introduction of Mega Tyranitar and Mega Abomasnow (arguably improving Sand and Hail) and Mega Charizard Y (definitely improving Sun), weather as a whole just isn't a viable team structure. BW on the other hand was a meta very much defined by weather. As the meta changed, Rain Offense became harder to do after Aldaron's Proposal. But then we saw the rise of things like Tornadus-T and Keldeo making Rain threatening all over again. In the meanwhile, Rain Stall was a strong strategy in its own right. Epitomizing the weather-centric nature of BW OU was the high usage of Dugtrio on Sun teams, almost entirely to eliminate Tyranitar and thus win the weather war. It seems it would be difficult to alter this and make XY OU focused heavily on weather again, due to the 5 turn constraint, but perhaps it could be done? Maybe now that Pokemon no longer summon perma-weather, it would be the perfect time to create a Pokemon that summons weather. What if there were a Drought-mon that didn't stink (Ninetales) and didn't require you to use your Mega Evolution (CharY)? It's certainly an interesting question. This is a situation we avoided addressing directly due to weather's dominance in BW, but maybe now tinkering with weather wouldn't be so dangerous.
Moving onto the second dynamic, we see a clear reason for its demise in XY as well. Dragons and Steels were shafted by the redoing of the type chart. Dragons all of a sudden face an immunity in Fairy, making Outrage and Draco Meteor infinitely less spammable than they were in BW. On the other side of things, Steels no longer were necessary to stop Dragons, and indeed are inferior to Fairies in doing so. On top of that, Steel lost its resistances to Dark and Ghost type moves. Interestingly, though, due to Steel being super effective against Fairy, it is a considerably improved offensive type, so perhaps not all is lost for Steel? Still, Dragons and Steels are not the metagame forces they were in BW OU, as epitomized by the "DragMag" strategy whereby Magnezone would be used to clear Steels for Dragons to then sweep. This was even taken as far as 4Drag2Mag, where a team would literally be composed of 4 Dragons, Magnezone, and Magneton. While this strategy is no longer viable in the slightest, since Fairies (except for Mawile and Klefki) can't be trapped by Magnet Pull and Aegislash, the most popular Steel can't be trapped due to its Ghost typing, that doesn't mean that something can't be done to resurrect Dragons and/or Steels. Perhaps a new form of DragMag could be made, whereby Fairies are the targets for removal instead of (or in addition to) Steels.
Finally, we come to Bulky Offense, which is a nebulous definition for what largely dominated BW OU. I don't know how to define it particularly well, but I know that the current XY OU meta does not have much of it. Most teams are pretty heavily offensive or pretty heavily stall, without much in between. This is why a lot of people have offered concepts about "glue" or "pivots." It's certainly an option that could be explored in my concept too, but I think it's more interesting to focus on the metagame drivers themselves and focus on disrupting them in favor of bulky offense, rather than just building a "glue/pivot" mon and hoping it will work in the meta.
There are many other aspects that matter a ton, such as Defog's ease of removing hazards and Knock Off's rise to power. But since most of these ancillary factors have received entire dedicated concepts of their own, I won't prattle on any further. But I would very much look forward to continuing this discussion if my concept were to be chosen.
Name: Onslaught
General Idea: A Pokemon that explores the concept of Onslaught Cores - offensive cores that double or even triple up on offensive Pokemon with the same or similar checks/counters with the hope that the combined effort will break through them. (DragMag, Double Dragon, TalonRaptor, etc)
Justification: It all started in DPP Ubers when some brilliant mind put Salamence and Rayquaza on the same team, realizing that all the havoc that one dragon dance sweeper wreaks on the defending team before it gets stopped makes it that much easier to succeed with the second one! This strategy was aptly named "Double Dragon" and was a great offensive strategy throughout the generation, and one of the best if not only reasons to use Salamence in Ubers. The reason this worked so well is because even if there was a defensive Pokemon that Salamence could only 3HKO but got OHKO'd back, by the time you brought in Rayquaza that Pokemon had already taken one hit stopping Salamence's sweep so it's like that 3HKO became 2HKO for Rayquaza, a much more favorable position to be in for an offensive Pokemon.
This offensive Onslaught type of strategy evolved into the infamous DragMag strategy in BW OU because with the release of Haxorus and Hydreigon as well as Lati@s's drop into OU we finally had five dragons worth putting on a team. DragMag was pretty simple- only Steel types resisted dragon, so a Steel trapper + five dragons = easy sweep. Even if Magnezone failed to take out the opponent's steels (which it rarely did), the sheer combined power of your dragons all beating up on the one Pokemon your opponent had that wasn't 2HKO'd by them was usually enough to break through it eventually and finish crushing your opponent. This strategy was popular enough in BW OU to be considered a major team archetype often cited along with (though not necessarily as good as) Rain, Sun, Weatherless, Hyper Offense, and the other major playstyles of the era.
Come sixth gen the Onslaught stratey has only become more popular. DragMag has fallen from grace a bit with the introduction of the fairy type, but it is still quite viable as Magnezone handles most fairies quite well and the popular Dragons have a wide array of coverage moves. However- DragMag is just the tip of the iceberg. The main threat this gen are the new Onslaught cores. Double Dragon is back with Salamence having a new partner in Mega Charizard X, both being powerful dragon types with access to Dragon Dance, high base power STABs, and the coverage to ruin any would-be wall's day. Dragon isn't even the only offensive type to be on high alert for this gen either. Staraptor, Mega Pinsir, and most importantly Talonflame can be run together very effectively as they all share similar checks that get worn down fast with repeated assaults and appreciate the same team support (all they really need is for Stealth Rock to be gone). In fact, they are arguably better than dragon spam, because after Staraptor and/or Mega Pinsir have dented a team's flying checks Talonflame doesn't even need to waste a turn boosting to start cleaning up with it's potent priority Brave Birds.
Double Dragon, DragMag, Talonraptor- different names, different faces, same idea. Load up on offensive Pokemon with shared checks/counters and either wear them down with repeated brute force or pack a counter to their counters and start smacking away at the enemy team. It may be rather unelegant, but it is in no way diminishing in popularity. Looking back, we only see this strategy getting more and more popular through the generations. If this pattern continues we can definitely look forward to a lot more of this in the future. Until now we've been giving the cores little nicknames like they were isolated cases, but looking at these strategy as a whole it's easy to see that it's really just one central idea- Onslaught. For our first CAP of the 6th generation, let's explore this idea and see what makes it tick.
Questions To Be Answered:
- What attacking types and offensive "groups" are viable for this kind of strategy? Dragons works well due to the relatively small number of Pokemon that resist their STAB. Flying works well due to being a good offensive typing and it's fantastic abusers. If we were to try and say create a new Onslaught core what types and what Pokemon would work well for it?
- Other than the obviously popular Onslaught cores, are there any popular cores that could be considered semi-Onslaught? Fighting types have no shortage of high attack users with powerful moves. Rain boosted water attack gave us all headaches last gen. What offensive cores are putting the most pressure on today's OU metagame?
- How can you effectively stop an Onslaught core? Resistances and high defenses are nice and all, but even Mega-Aggron, one of the most physically defensive Pokemon in the game, has trouble not getting worn down by the combined might of DD Salamence and MegaZard X, not even to mention their special attacking teammates. Can such problems be overcome in indirect ways such as recovery and status? Perhaps ditching a defensive answer and opting to revenge kill is a better way to go?
- What traits do these cores all share? Are they something we'd be able to predict just upon seeing the new Pokemon in a generation shift or are these cores something that take time to be discovered?
- Why exactly do these cores work so well? To most battlers, loading up on offensive Pokemon that are all stopped by the same Pokemon seems counter-intuitive. Is it just that the current abusers of this strategy already only have shaky counters as it is or is there a deeper strategic value in focusing all your strengths on one point rather than covering all your bases?
Explanation:
The best way to go about this, in my opinion at least, is to choose a dangerous offensive Pokemon or pair of similar dangerous offensive Pokemon and create a CAP that completes an Onslaught core with them. Note that Onslaught cores are a little bit different than traditional offensive cores, in that you don't complement your flying type sweeper with a ground type sweeper that hits all the flying resists super-effectively. Instead you compliment your flying type with another flying type that draws the same switch in.
That's not to say that they have to be exactly the same however. For example, take a look at 6th gen's Double Dragon combo- Salamence and MegaZard X. Yes they both commonly run together with Dragon Dance, but they work a little differently. Salamence's Intimidate and handy ground immunity gives it the bulk to set up on many physically oriented attackers, while MegaZard X usually gets his Dragon Dance with his offensive presence forcing a switch. You can even still effectively run them together by taking advantage of Salamence's ability to hold items by running Scarf MoxieMence with DD MegaZard X. While Pokemon in Onslaught cores tend to be somewhat similar they do not have to be same, and can even be more effective by taking advantage of different secondary typing and abilities.
Going this route, the most important stage for learning is not when we choose CAP's partner(s), but when we choose CAP's checks and counters. It's just as important, if not more important, to develop a counter-play to a strategy as it is to develop the strategy itself. Onslaught cores are really effective when done right, but that just makes it that much more important to know how to beat it. Due to the wall-breaking nature of Onslaught cores, Pokemon just with high defensive stats and resists probably won't completely cut it (Not that it doesn't help of course!). That's not to say that it can't be done, it will just require some creativity. Making good but balanced Pokemon is what we're all here for and it's what the CAP community does best.
If you can't tell already, I'm really hoping that I can get the "Onslaught Cores" name to stick. But that aside, I really do think that this is something worth looking into. Good luck to all the other submissions! There's a lot of great submissions here and I think it it'll be pretty hard to go wrong this time around.
This poll will be open for 24 hours.Name: Scarf Is Not Dead
Description: A pokemon that is a very effective user of a Choice Scarf in the current metagame, and and that is defined by its usage of Choice Scarf.
Justification: With the rise of priority and naturally fast pokemon in XY, Choice Scarf, once one of the best items in the game, is now barely ever seen. There is practically no reason to use, for example, a Scarf Keldeo when you could have a powerful priority user or fast pokemon with the ability to change moves instead. This project would allow us to explore one of the biggest changes in the new metagame, which would be very interesting and useful going into XY.
Questions To Be Answered:
-How has the importance of speed changed in X and Y?
-What factors affect the usefulness of an item?
-What aspects of a pokemon will make it an ideal user of a choice item, particularly scarf?
-What qualities would make a pokemon willing to sacrifice its ability to change moves for extra speed?
-How will the metagame adapt to the addition of a new revenge killer? (assuming that the scarfer will be used primarily as a revenge killer)
Explanation:
In Black and White, a Choice Scarf user was mandatory on every offensive team. Even some stall teams found a team slot to fit a scarfer in. Choice Scarf was by far the best way to revenge kill in BW, as there was far less priority and very few pokemon broke the 110 speed tier. However, this has all gone out the window in X and Y. Priority is everywhere, with new additions such as Talonflame, Aegislash, and Mega-Pinsir combined with the newfound power of old abusers like Bisharp and Azumarill. There are also many new additions with incredibly high speed, such as Greninja and Mega-Manectric, and Deoxys-S, the fastest of them all, has returned to OU as well. Even Thundurus-I has joined in the revenge killing frenzy with its priority Thunder Wave allowing it to ruin almost every setup sweeper. With all these options, there is virtually no reason to use a choice scarfer today. This project would allow us to explore what qualities would make a Choice Scarf user equally or more desirable than any of these, and also to gain a new understanding of the item itself. Given the extreme importance of revenge killing, I think that these would all be very useful subjects to explore.
The second qualification in the description - that the pokemon be defined by Choice Scarf - is there to make sure the CAP will not just be a generally good pokemon that can use a Choice Scarf well (Keldeo, Landorus), but a pokemon that is good only with scarf and otherwise mediocre. Think Genesect in very early B2W2 before people started using Rock Polish, but less broken obviously.
I understand that there could be some concern about how focused my concept is on studying a single item. My idea was that, through studying Choice Scarf, we could gain understanding of not just the item itself, but of a lot of other changes that have come with XY - particularly the greater emphasis on momentum and the change in speed's importance in OU. This concept would let us see at what point it is optimal to potentially risk momentum in order to achieve greater speed, what changes in the importance of speed have occurred (I can't make this much more specific because I'm not sure what the answer is), and what other pokemon a Choice Scarfer would be competing for a teamslot with. I feel that these are great opportunities to learn about the metagame, particularly early in the generation.
Edited with Pwnemon and DetroitLolCat's suggestions
paintseagull edit 2:37pm EST: Just fixed some username spelling problems in the slate, but don't worry, the vote counter doesn't care about spaces and periods, so all votes up to now are still fine.
----
CAP 18 so far:
Leadership Team:
DetroitLolcat - Topic Leader
PttP - Ability Leader
jas61292 - Typing Leader
ginganinja - Movepool Leader
srk1214 - Stats Leader
Last edited:
