CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 6 - Stat Spread Submissions

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I'm going to try to give some comments on some other spreads here, take it as you will.

110 HP / 47 Atk / 65 Def / 147 SpA / 95 SpD / 76 Spe (540 BST)
First I saw that sexy 147 base special attack and I was like hell yeah! Then I saw that speed and those defenses and I was like hmmm? I like your reasoning for 76 speed but I think that if you're going to go that slow you could afford to put a bit more into bulk. I know that there's no real reason to get super close to the BSR limit if you can create an effective spread without it but you're like a whole 40 points under the limit. I don't think it would hurt to go up to around 310 BSR or so and add some bulk considering you're going to have to take more hits when you're that slow. This is still a nice spread though without that change and it's one of the ones I like the best!

154 HP/42 Atk/64 Def/143 SpA/74 SpD/90 Spe
It's not my place to say this is BSR abuse but I do think that this would be a bit more palpable without that enormous 154 hp stat staring everyone in the face (Literally enormous, I'm pretty sure that's the biggest font). Bulk is a lot more malleable than speed and power so I don't think it would dramatically change your spread and what it accomplishes by dropping down to ~130 hp and making up the difference in the individual defenses, but it would make it much easier understand. Otherwise, I think this is a pretty nice spread.

100 HP / 45 Atk / 80 Def / 135 SpA / 100 SpD / 95 Spe (555 BST)
I really like this spread. It's well thought out and obviously has a lot of though put into it. I especially appreciate the fact that you have specific sets in mind already. I'm dubious of this spread's ability to take shadow balls with the offensive sets but then again I suppose it may not need to if it's going offensive. Two thumbs up!

98 HP / 41 Atk / 79 Def / 126 SpA / 108 SpD / 103 Spe (555 BST)
I could have sworn our submissions were not so similar when I first posted but taking a second look I guess they kind of are. Oh well, that just means I don't really have anything bad to say about this spread. Nice work!

88 hp/ 50 Atk/ 100 Def/ 125 spa/ 100 spd/ 105 spe (568 BST)
Very nice spread, but I feel like you should pick a side between physical and special bulk. They are each of arguable importance but I don't think anyone would say they are of equal importance. This spread would probably look a little nicer if you emphasized one over the other. Good job!

These are mostly just the spreads from the first page, I might take a look at the ones from the second page later. Nice submissions everyone!
 
Bar the dump stat, my personal favorite so far is Deck Knight's. I really dislike all the sky rocketed SpAtk stats we're seeing. With an analytic boost, we're throwing fire blasts with the same power as Victini's V-Create (no drawbacks either, might I add.)

note, this was meant to be used with a spread of 248 HP / 252+ SpAtk /8 Spe(or SpD)

154 HP / 65 Atk / 66 Def / 117 SpA / 65 SpD / 92 Spe (559 BST)

PT: 158.49 (Very Good)
ST: 157.423 (Very Good)
PS: 96.7172 (Below Average)
SS: 173.318 (Very Good)
BSR: 320.6285 (Very Good)


154 HP:

Given how much we want mixed bulk, I think HP should be our most important stat, and I really liked the number Admiral_Stalfos19 came up with. However, pairing it with the 140+ SpAtk I was already averted to made me look for a new spread.

To those worried high HP will let us beat blissey/chansey 1-on-1: as long as we don't have boosting moves, we can't do shit to them. It's a stalemate where they'll have more pp than us (looking at what everyone's posting, hydropump/fire blast seems to be a given)(with this spread, blissey could break our sub with a rare thunderbolt if it really wanted.)


65 Atk:

Just picked a reasonable number that kept within the given limits. I originally had this lower in favor of other stats, but a drop stat combined with 154 HP would of been a bit silly.


66 Def:

This was as high as I could put it legally. It's plenty for most of what we need to do (avoids 2HKOs from +0 mega mawile a azumarill), I just wish I could bump it up to 72 to give us a 100% chance of surviving a +2 sucker punch/+6 Aqua Jet. (We can still beat mawile with will-o-wisp, so it isn't too terrible.)


117 SpA:

112 is enough to have a 100% OHKO Aegislash with an analytic boost (shadow sneak) or life orb. Hitting this benchmark pretty much clears everything we need to unless we bump it up to insane measures (as previously stated, I don't think it's work it.) Another boon to the lower SpAtk is we fail to 2HKO any of our threats (we can't even touch Goodra.) I did throw an extra 5 points in though, just to give us some extra oomph for fairies.

If we want to OHKO Aegislash with no boosts, we're asking for enough fire power to tear through 150 SpDef while being tanky enough to eat 150 SpA STAB Shadow Balls. Iirc, according to our concept, our mon is supposed to be sub-par by itself, that's not happening with insane stats.


65 SpD:

Just enough to dodge the 2HKO from Aegi's Shadow Ball with lefties (the strongest SpAtk we need to take), no more. The fine line was created on purpose, as with stealth rocks, we only check what we need to counter. This puts a large emphasis on Latias's defog support, meaning cap18 isn't gonna be a premier Aegislash counter you can throw on any team.


92 Spe:

I actually wanted this to be 119 (enough to out speed Adamant 252 spd Excadrill with 8 ev's.) But I let my fears of BSR abuse (I'd need to drop atk to 40) get the better of me. 92 let's us out speed the next zippiest ground type, Lando-T (who usually doesn't use speed evs.)
 
I think it might be worth noting that the minimum special attack needed to always OHKO 252 HP Aegislash with Overheat and no item is 128. If this is a viable option, we could avoid running 145+ SpA stats just so we can have a good chance to OHKO Aegislash with Fire Blast. We do have a good secondary STAB and potentially any other move we want to help with the SpA drops (i.e. Will-o-Wisp is likely).

A spread with 145 SpA, Specs, HP Ice, and Stealth Rock can 3HKO Assault Vest Goodra, threaten to OHKO 4HP Latias, and force SpD Latias to recover every turn, while a spread with 128 SpA and similar circumstances fails to do all of these.
 
It's not my place to say this is BSR abuse but I do think that this would be a bit more palpable without that enormous 154 hp stat staring everyone in the face (Literally enormous, I'm pretty sure that's the biggest font). Bulk is a lot more malleable than speed and power so I don't think it would dramatically change your spread and what it accomplishes by dropping down to ~130 hp and making up the difference in the individual defenses, but it would make it much easier understand. Otherwise, I think this is a pretty nice spread.
As much as I understand where you're coming from, I'd rather not change the HP stat from 154; again, not only is it a great Leftovers number, but it's also a strong Life Orb number, and as such, I like the fact that both items remain options. But if you or anyone else insists, I could drop HPs all the way down to 114, but I'd have to research how much to improve the defenses by once I get the time.
 
Very nice spread, but I feel like you should pick a side between physical and special bulk. They are each of arguable importance but I don't think anyone would say they are of equal importance. This spread would probably look a little nicer if you emphasized one over the other. Good job!
Well first off thanks, after some research i was able to find stats that still have the same results, but now favor physical side.
 
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As much as I understand where you're coming from, I'd rather not change the HP stat from 154; again, not only is it a great Leftovers number, but it's also a strong Life Orb number, and as such, I like the fact that both items remain options. But if you or anyone else insists, I could drop HPs all the way down to 114, but I'd have to research how much to improve the defenses by once I get the time.
Maybe it's just me, but I think the CAP should be discouraged from Life Orb use. It's already going to need a lot of power to handle Aegislash, adding Life Orb boost is overkill. By making it not have much of an HP stat and have the main part of it's bulk be in it's defense stats, the CAP isn't able to run Life Orb and still beat what it needs to beat.
 
Maybe it's just me, but I think the CAP should be discouraged from Life Orb use. It's already going to need a lot of power to handle Aegislash, adding Life Orb boost is overkill. By making it not have much of an HP stat and have the main part of it's bulk be in it's defense stats, the CAP isn't able to run Life Orb and still beat what it needs to beat.
I'm probably speaking out of my butt, but(two butts haha) doesn't the life orb only take health when you use damaging move? wouldn't that mean your bulk would stay in tact as long as you were conservative with offense. and with the life orb, as long as your speed is high, the extra damage helps you deal with pokes that threaten your bulk so wouldn't the best offense make survive-ability better."A fantastic offense is the best defense" i know with the stat spread you quoted the life orb maybe a little overkill, but it is a very nice thing to have my spread because it allows you to use a timid nature making sure you can out speed all unscarfed threats. So why should the life orb be discouraged for the Cap in general?
 
Well, your spread is a bit different. Most of the spreads have average speed with just enough to outspeed Excadrill, and trading that speed for more bulk and power. I was mostly thinking of the general trend going on in which the SpA is fairly high (140 range high), with that level of Special Attack discouraging Life Orb is good, yours which has it at 125 is much more manageable
 

alexwolf

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Time to comment on some of the spreads:


jas61292: The SpA is too high and the Speed is too low. As mentioned by many, with so much SpA almost nothing outside of Chansey and Blissey can counter the CAP or even act as hard checks to it, as even Goodra risks getting 3HKOed by HP Ice. Also, with only 76 Speed, pretty much most offensive Pokemon can outspeed the CAP, which, when combined with the CAP's SR weakness, and weakness to many common moves, namely Stone Edge, Earthquake, Thunderbolt, and Earth Power, means that the CAP will really struggle to do anything against offensive teams, outside of checking Aegislash. Also, most slow powerhouses found on offensive teams, such as Mega Mawile, Bisharp, Mega Tyranitar, and Azumarill, can outspeed the CAP unless it heavily invests in Speed, at which point it has almost zero room for HP investment, basically only leaving Aegislash and very few other Pokemon that the CAP is able to deal with. So, instead of making the CAP a destroyer of balanced teams and bad against offensive teams (stall has Chansey), why not make the CAP slightly less good against balance and slightly more useful against offensive teams by moving some SpA to Speed? It has already been proven that the SpA is pretty much overkill at this point anyway. The bulk is fine though.

Deck Knight: All in all a good spread, but i think it's a bit too much, as it has all of power, bulk, and speed. 103 is quite fast, and even though many Pokemon can outspeed the CAP, not so many of them can OHKO it while avoiding getting OHKOed back, which makes your spread really difficult to deal with. 182 ST coupled with 207 SS is just too much, especially when coupled with Analytic. Potential soft-checks to the CAP that resist one of its STABs and can do serious damage back to it, such as Garchomp and Mega Charizard X, are outsped and easily OHKO/2HKOed, depending on our item of choice. There are very few Pokemon that are able to outspeed and OHKO the CAP even without any HP investment, namely Mega Pinsir (88.7 - 104.7%), Life Orb or physical Thundurus, and Terrakion, outside of Choice Scarf users. Literally, that's it. Latios and Latias can deal a lot of damage back but neither of them can OHKO a healthy CAP, which would be ok if both of them weren't 2HKOed by Specs CAP's STABs, making them unable to switch into the CAP and beat it. My advice would be to either lower your speed to 99, so that Pokemon such as Mega Charizard X, Garchomp, and Landorus can check the CAP or at least revenge kill it, or lower the SpA to a point that Latios and Latias can check the CAP instead of getting 2HKOed by Specs sets, something like 110 SpA, so that Latios and Latias can at least outstall the CAPs STABs by spamming Roost (Hydro Pump and Fire Blast, the only STAB moves able to threaten with a 2HKO).

Albacore: One of my favorite spreads. Great power and bulk with decent Speed. Thanks to this great bulk, the CAP can invest a lot in Speed to outrun troubling Pokemon such as Mega Gyarados and Mega Tyranitar, while still having the bulk to check the threats we want to, namely Azumarill, Aegislash, and Mega Mawile. It can also go max HP / max SpA while still outspeeding max Speed+ Azumarill and Mega Mawile, which is great. However, even though the CAP is very bulky and powerful, it is checked or revenge killed by a lot of common and good Pokemon, namely Landorus, Garchomp, Mega Charizard X, Mega Pinsir, Terrakion, Kyurem-B, and speedy Landorus-T, making it very manageable. Don't change a thing, very nice spread.

Admiral_Stalfos19: Blatant BSR abuse, your spread gives too much power and bulk for that Speed. For sure lower your HP stat, and maybe the SpA too.

Salt the Flesh: Decent spread, but you don't really explain why you chose this exact ST and PT, you just say vague things such as being able to hard check Aegislash. Furthermore, none of your calcs explain why you choose this particular bulk, as it doesn't ensure any OHKO / 2HKO is avoided, aside from +2 Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch. So, i would like more calculations and expanation as to why you went with this exact bulk. The SS is fine.


Probably gonna comment on some more later...
 
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Well, your spread is a bit different. Most of the spreads have average speed with just enough to outspeed Excadrill, and trading that speed for more bulk and power. I was mostly thinking of the general trend going on in which the SpA is fairly high (140 range high), with that level of Special Attack discouraging Life Orb is good, yours which has it at 125 is much more manageable

i see, u were responding their type of stat spread only.
i got it now, sorry.
 

Korski

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As much as I understand where you're coming from, I'd rather not change the HP stat from 154; again, not only is it a great Leftovers number, but it's also a strong Life Orb number, and as such, I like the fact that both items remain options. But if you or anyone else insists, I could drop HPs all the way down to 114, but I'd have to research how much to improve the defenses by once I get the time.
I won't insist you drop the HP stat, but what I can do is let you know for certain your spread won't be slated as is due to BSR abuse. There are four major indicators of BSR abuse present in this spread (154 HP / 42 Atk / 64 Def / 143 SpA / 74 SpD / 90 Spe):
  • 334.56 BSR: riding the BSR limit is not abuse on its own, but it is a good initial indicator that some number fudging has occurred.
  • 154 HP: incredibly high for a Pokemon. The only argument given is that the stat is conducive to Leftovers and Life Orb, which has nothing to do with the concept, threat list, or general direction of the project. Competitive PT and ST are achieved with much fewer base stat points than would be possible with a "reasonable" HP stat. This is abuse all on its own.
  • 42 Atk: incredibly low for a fully evolved Pokemon. 42 is comparable to a lot of other spreads, yes, however most of those spreads aren't also riding the overall BSR limit as closely as this one. Bumping the stat up to a more "realistic" 50 Atk (general floor for Gamefreak creations, with only a few exceptions) would put the spread over the BSR limit and render it illegal. This is not the case for most of the other spreads submitted with Atk<50.
  • 567 BST: The highest BST for a non-legendary, non-hindering-ability Pokemon is 555 (Arcanine). BST is no indicator of overall strength, but it is a metric of abuse when taking into consideration the limit-riding BSR, the unusually high HP/defenses ratio, the unusually high SpA stat, and the unusually low Atk stat. This spread not only unrealistically saves stat points by manipulating HP and Atk levels, it then uses those savings to pump up SpA without compensating anywhere (not even in overall BST). This is quite clearly stat cramming, which is without question BSR abuse.
Any single one of these indicators won't automatically disqualify a spread (except probably the HP/defenses ratio), but taken all together, the abuse is pretty blatant, and that's why the spread as is would never be seriously considered for slating. This spread could achieve roughly the same PT and ST ratings with a 114 HP / 42 Atk / 82 Def / 133 SpA / 94 SpD / 90 Spe build and be much more palatable to topic leadership. The BST of this altered spread is 555, the Atk could be bumped up to 50 without breaking the BSR limit, and the SpA isn't as abusively high as before. Overall, a spread like this is still incredibly powerful in just about every regard, so it would probably need to be tweaked a bit further downward for voters to stomach better, but at least the signs of abuse are largely taken care of.
 

Bughouse

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Comments! First, I want to thank everyone who has commented so far either here or on IRC to help improve each other's submissions. Now it's my turn.

As there have been many stat submissions and I fell behind due to college, I'm gonna limit myself here to submissions that have more fleshed out explanations. If I don't comment on your spread here, feel free to message me and I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

jas61292
You know how I feel about your speed stat. But with that said, I think you made the best possible slow spread. The reasoning for underspeeding Heatran while also being capable of outrunning Excadrill is something we talked about on irc and I at the time said 76 would be the way to go because of that. I'm having some second thoughts about that though. Perhaps it would be better to go to 79 Speed, so that you can outrun Adamant Landorus-T (not just Exca) if you want to, but you can still easily underspeed Heatran by using imperfect Speed IVs. Other than that, I question your statement on Gengar being weaker than Aegislash since Gengar so frequently holds Life Orb (even sometimes Specs) and how it can also use Thunderbolt. I would also have liked to have seen some calculations with Stealth Rock or Spikes interacting with CAP 18 or even just Sandstorm damage as Tyranitar and Hippowdon are pretty common in OU these days and even a simple negation of Leftovers might change a 3HKO to a 2HKO etc. The key factor people need to remember when looking at your spread is that it would likely run no speed investment and as a result have Modest, turning your spread into a total freaking NUKE. This may be considered good or bad, but that's certainly your spread's most defining characteristic.

Deck Knight
You also probably know how I feel about your speed stat. While there's certainly nothing glaringly awful about 103 speed (can't say the same for the even higher speed you initially were considering), it does limit the sheer offensive power output we can generate. I was sure to limit the SS for that reason last stage so CAP 18 wouldn't become a straight up offensive threat, but the downside is that neutral nature sets just don't quite pack the punch we'd like them to. That being said, 103 speed (aside from enabling us to outrun even ScarfChomp if we want to) has a super nifty benefit that you neglected to mention. Jolly Excadrill will not be able to outspeed Modest CAP 18 if your spread wins. Unfortunately the same can't be said for Landorus-T without pushing up the speed beyond the 105s, which I would definitely not advocate. This is mitigated I suppose by 252+ Speed Landorus-T isn't common except on Scarfers we can't outrun anyway. Because your spread can outrun Excadrill in that way, I actually am curious whether Modest or Timid would be most common and the versatility provided by nature alone is very interesting. I don't really buy your arguments about 103 Speed as they relate to Choice Scarf as I feel Keldeo would almost entirely outclass them unless we get a particularly interesting coverage movepool. It has better Hydro Pumps, better speed, and isn't so crippled by hazards like CAP 18 will be. Those are all super important things for a Scarfer to have. True, Keldeo may seem worse against the Fairies and Aegislash that our core needs to take on, but that's not necessarily true across the board, given how Keldeo resists Azumarill's Aqua Jet and Mawile's Sucker Punch, two other important benefits for Keldeo as a Scarfer. Focus more on the Life Orb and Leftovers in my opinion. Perhaps tailor a more specific defensive spread for Leftovers, rather than just tacking it on with the offensive LO set.

Albacore
I don't think I need to provide any comments on 89 speed. We all know what you're looking for. However, your spread differs from what many expect of something in an offensive core by being bulkier but less of a nuke. You accompany this decision with a lot of talk about Life Orb. I guess my main question for you is this: Is it better to be bulkier and rely on Life Orb for the extra damage output or to be more of a nuke off the bat and rely on Leftovers to augment bulk. Admittedly it's not an even trade off. The Life Orb makes CAP 18 far more powerful than even a set with 140 SpAtk and Leftovers. Similarly the 6.25% recovery of Leftovers each turn quickly surpasses the bulk of the LO set that loses 10% each time it attacks. The key with using those items on those particular builds of spreads is an important decision to make and I'd recommend you invest some time into calcs along the lines of 252 HP / 252 Speed (mostly Timid, but Modest I suppose too, since most Exca are Adamant), complementing the overall bulk that sets your spread apart from many, while not forfeiting the whole benefit of being faster than Excadrill in the first place. I know that sort of spread won't hit like a truck, but it should be able to tank a lot of things and maybe even spread burns while doing so. While it's a polljump to assume certain moves, there are many good sets that could use that sort of EV investment. That may be one good way to further distinguish your spread.

alexwolf
Your spread is ironically one of the more unique spreads despite being closer to what I expected than anyone else. Also, among all the spreads I've called out here for comment, yours has nearly exactly average bulk in both PT and ST. It's also the closest to the average BSR of all spreads. And it's not just the numbers. Looking into the calcs in general, I can tell that you walk a nice balance overall between bulk, speed, and power. I am somewhat concerned overall that because it's not clearly sacrificing any of the 3 that perhaps it may violate the build triangle. This may be unfounded though, since it's not particularly fantastic at any of the three either. Furthermore, the build triangle is more than just the raw stats too, so I think we could handle this spread and keep it within the triangle when it comes to movepool. But it is probably the one that is most threatening of doing so by giving such a versatile base in its stats. There's a reason that ganj4lf submitted a nearly identical spread that went ahead and sacrificed bulk. Think about what I've said here and present a clear argument for why it definitely won't violate the build triangle. What safeguards will need to be taken in movepool to ensure this? Do you think your spread would be broken with a recovery move, for example? I was looking at the 3 attacks Lefties set and certainly thought about a recovery move there as a fantastic "filler." Do you think that would be too good and why? I ask because with many other spreads submitted here, that potential recovery move probably wouldn't be broken.

Clankenator007
Although the BSR and the SS stood out at first as a flag for BSR abuse, looking at your spread more closely, you clearly have not done so, which is a relief! You've compensated for the super-high SS by having VERY mediocre PT and only reasonable ST. Furthermore, your BSR is high largely because you didn't choose to ride down the PS limit like so many others. So thank you for that :) (On a flavor note though, you could afford to drop it to 50 Atk to match Arcanine's 555 BST, without flagging as BSR abuse) As to the actual specific details, yours clearly sells it on that low PT and super high ST. However, that ST isn't quite the nuke that other sets are, since it's driven partly by the high speed. In fact, your spread is largely the same as Deck Knight's but with inferior PT. For that reason, I just have to ask you to distinguish yours from his, as his came first. Tell me why that lower PT is better for the CAP. Why do your reference points for deciding the PT matter more than his do?

ganj4lF
As you said, your spread is basically alexwolf's but with less bulk. In fact your spread is by far the least bulky spread in this thread. My question for you therefore is why? Just get more in depth. alexwolf provided a lot of calculations in his sub, so I'd like you to do the same. What things can your submission no longer tank if it goes offensive and what things can it no longer nuke if it goes defensive? And why is that level of power/bulk threshold preferable. At the moment it's just an unsupported argument restating the fact that it's a less powerful spread overall. We could tell that by looking at the BSR in the first place. I want you to point out more specific examples of what alexwolf's spread can hit hard with the 252 SpAtk EVs your spread wouldn't be running on a 252 HP set when it's trying to match alexwolf's bulk (and vice versa for your lower bulk when you match alexwolf's power.) Then tell me why those are important things for us to do worse against.



Additionally, I wanted to warn people ahead of time of what I perceive as BSR abuse in case they wanted to revise theirs spreads. Admiral_Stalfos19 and Elite Lord Sigma, your spreads definitely flag for BSR abuse and as they currently stand just can't be slated when there are viable non-abusive options. Salt the Flesh and hendrix96 your spreads are cutting it exceedingly close as well. I would be hard pressed to slate either of them for the same reason.

There are a number of other users who have spreads in this thread, but they just weren't fleshed-out enough yet to merit a comment. If you'd like one, again, message me privately or just post again in this thread either letting me know you've edited your post or copying it over into a new post and improving it.

As only 6 spreads so far have posted submissions that are argued well-enough so far, my provisional slate is identical to the 6 users I have tagged here. That however is very subject to change pending any other submissions that add more arguments or if someone above fails to adequately address a concern I or someone else in this thread have raised.

Finally, this is roughly a 26 Hour Warning. This thread will close at 5 PM EDT on Friday.
 
Comments! First, I want to thank everyone who has commented so far either here or on IRC to help improve each other's submissions. Now it's my turn.

As there have been many stat submissions and I fell behind due to college, I'm gonna limit myself here to submissions that have more fleshed out explanations. If I don't comment on your spread here, feel free to message me and I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

jas61292
You know how I feel about your speed stat. But with that said, I think you made the best possible slow spread. The reasoning for underspeeding Heatran while also being capable of outrunning Excadrill is something we talked about on irc and I at the time said 76 would be the way to go because of that. I'm having some second thoughts about that though. Perhaps it would be better to go to 79 Speed, so that you can outrun Adamant Landorus-T (not just Exca) if you want to, but you can still easily underspeed Heatran by using imperfect Speed IVs. Other than that, I question your statement on Gengar being weaker than Aegislash since Gengar so frequently holds Life Orb (even sometimes Specs) and how it can also use Thunderbolt. I would also have liked to have seen some calculations with Stealth Rock or Spikes interacting with CAP 18 or even just Sandstorm damage as Tyranitar and Hippowdon are pretty common in OU these days and even a simple negation of Leftovers might change a 3HKO to a 2HKO etc. The key factor people need to remember when looking at your spread is that it would likely run no speed investment and as a result have Modest, turning your spread into a total freaking NUKE. This may be considered good or bad, but that's certainly your spread's most defining characteristic.

Deck Knight
You also probably know how I feel about your speed stat. While there's certainly nothing glaringly awful about 103 speed (can't say the same for the even higher speed you initially were considering), it does limit the sheer offensive power output we can generate. I was sure to limit the SS for that reason last stage so CAP 18 wouldn't become a straight up offensive threat, but the downside is that neutral nature sets just don't quite pack the punch we'd like them to. That being said, 103 speed (aside from enabling us to outrun even ScarfChomp if we want to) has a super nifty benefit that you neglected to mention. Jolly Excadrill will not be able to outspeed Modest CAP 18 if your spread wins. Unfortunately the same can't be said for Landorus-T without pushing up the speed beyond the 105s, which I would definitely not advocate. This is mitigated I suppose by 252+ Speed Landorus-T isn't common except on Scarfers we can't outrun anyway. Because your spread can outrun Excadrill in that way, I actually am curious whether Modest or Timid would be most common and the versatility provided by nature alone is very interesting. I don't really buy your arguments about 103 Speed as they relate to Choice Scarf as I feel Keldeo would almost entirely outclass them unless we get a particularly interesting coverage movepool. It has better Hydro Pumps, better speed, and isn't so crippled by hazards like CAP 18 will be. Those are all super important things for a Scarfer to have. True, Keldeo may seem worse against the Fairies and Aegislash that our core needs to take on, but that's not necessarily true across the board, given how Keldeo resists Azumarill's Aqua Jet and Mawile's Sucker Punch, two other important benefits for Keldeo as a Scarfer. Focus more on the Life Orb and Leftovers in my opinion. Perhaps tailor a more specific defensive spread for Leftovers, rather than just tacking it on with the offensive LO set.

Albacore
I don't think I need to provide any comments on 89 speed. We all know what you're looking for. However, your spread differs from what many expect of something in an offensive core by being bulkier but less of a nuke. You accompany this decision with a lot of talk about Life Orb. I guess my main question for you is this: Is it better to be bulkier and rely on Life Orb for the extra damage output or to be more of a nuke off the bat and rely on Leftovers to augment bulk. Admittedly it's not an even trade off. The Life Orb makes CAP 18 far more powerful than even a set with 140 SpAtk and Leftovers. Similarly the 6.25% recovery of Leftovers each turn quickly surpasses the bulk of the LO set that loses 10% each time it attacks. The key with using those items on those particular builds of spreads is an important decision to make and I'd recommend you invest some time into calcs along the lines of 252 HP / 252 Speed (mostly Timid, but Modest I suppose too, since most Exca are Adamant), complementing the overall bulk that sets your spread apart from many, while not forfeiting the whole benefit of being faster than Excadrill in the first place. I know that sort of spread won't hit like a truck, but it should be able to tank a lot of things and maybe even spread burns while doing so. While it's a polljump to assume certain moves, there are many good sets that could use that sort of EV investment. That may be one good way to further distinguish your spread.

alexwolf
Your spread is ironically one of the more unique spreads despite being closer to what I expected than anyone else. Also, among all the spreads I've called out here for comment, yours has nearly exactly average bulk in both PT and ST. It's also the closest to the average BSR of all spreads. And it's not just the numbers. Looking into the calcs in general, I can tell that you walk a nice balance overall between bulk, speed, and power. I am somewhat concerned overall that because it's not clearly sacrificing any of the 3 that perhaps it may violate the build triangle. This may be unfounded though, since it's not particularly fantastic at any of the three either. Furthermore, the build triangle is more than just the raw stats too, so I think we could handle this spread and keep it within the triangle when it comes to movepool. But it is probably the one that is most threatening of doing so by giving such a versatile base in its stats. There's a reason that ganj4lf submitted a nearly identical spread that went ahead and sacrificed bulk. Think about what I've said here and present a clear argument for why it definitely won't violate the build triangle. What safeguards will need to be taken in movepool to ensure this? Do you think your spread would be broken with a recovery move, for example? I was looking at the 3 attacks Lefties set and certainly thought about a recovery move there as a fantastic "filler." Do you think that would be too good and why? I ask because with many other spreads submitted here, that potential recovery move probably wouldn't be broken.

Clankenator007
Although the BSR and the SS stood out at first as a flag for BSR abuse, looking at your spread more closely, you clearly have not done so, which is a relief! You've compensated for the super-high SS by having VERY mediocre PT and only reasonable ST. Furthermore, your BSR is high largely because you didn't choose to ride down the PS limit like so many others. So thank you for that :) (On a flavor note though, you could afford to drop it to 50 Atk to match Arcanine's 555 BST, without flagging as BSR abuse) As to the actual specific details, yours clearly sells it on that low PT and super high ST. However, that ST isn't quite the nuke that other sets are, since it's driven partly by the high speed. In fact, your spread is largely the same as Deck Knight's but with inferior PT. For that reason, I just have to ask you to distinguish yours from his, as his came first. Tell me why that lower PT is better for the CAP. Why do your reference points for deciding the PT matter more than his do?

ganj4lF
As you said, your spread is basically alexwolf's but with less bulk. In fact your spread is by far the least bulky spread in this thread. My question for you therefore is why? Just get more in depth. alexwolf provided a lot of calculations in his sub, so I'd like you to do the same. What things can your submission no longer tank if it goes offensive and what things can it no longer nuke if it goes defensive? And why is that level of power/bulk threshold preferable. At the moment it's just an unsupported argument restating the fact that it's a less powerful spread overall. We could tell that by looking at the BSR in the first place. I want you to point out more specific examples of what alexwolf's spread can hit hard with the 252 SpAtk EVs your spread wouldn't be running on a 252 HP set when it's trying to match alexwolf's bulk (and vice versa for your lower bulk when you match alexwolf's power.) Then tell me why those are important things for us to do worse against.



Additionally, I wanted to warn people ahead of time of what I perceive as BSR abuse in case they wanted to revise theirs spreads. Admiral_Stalfos19 and Elite Lord Sigma, your spreads definitely flag for BSR abuse and as they currently stand just can't be slated when there are viable non-abusive options. Salt the Flesh and hendrix96 your spreads are cutting it exceedingly close as well. I would be hard pressed to slate either of them for the same reason.

There are a number of other users who have spreads in this thread, but they just weren't fleshed-out enough yet to merit a comment. If you'd like one, again, message me privately or just post again in this thread either letting me know you've edited your post or copying it over into a new post and improving it.

As only 6 spreads so far have posted submissions that are argued well-enough so far, my provisional slate is identical to the 6 users I have tagged here. That however is very subject to change pending any other submissions that add more arguments or if someone above fails to adequately address a concern I or someone else in this thread have raised.

Finally, this is roughly a 26 Hour Warning. This thread will close at 5 PM EDT on Friday.
if i slightly lowered my stats and rearranged a few value points and got my bsr to say 329.323 would that take me off cutting it kind of close list?
 

Bughouse

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Posting here once more to tag Deck Knight with the same question I addressed to alexwolf above. Why does your spread not violate the build triangle and what safeguards need to be taken as we move forward to keep your spread from being overpowered? As one specific example, how would a recovery move tie in with your spread? Would it break it?

This is even more important in your case than in alexwolf's since your spread is even faster and marginally more bulky too. I meant to address that in my comments to you but I forgot above.

And to hendrix96 I would say that I would have to see the new spread to say for sure. But reductions of various stats will only make it more likely to be slated.
 
I updated my post with hopefully more reasoning. If there are any questions or refinements I could answer before the deadline I'd love to hear them.
 
okay i edited my post changing around my spread quite a bit although it still does exactly wha used to it does more efficently and with smaller stats and a 322.592 bsr rating. Hopefully im not riding the bsr abuse limit anymore.
 
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ganj4lF

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ganj4lF
As you said, your spread is basically alexwolf's but with less bulk. In fact your spread is by far the least bulky spread in this thread. My question for you therefore is why? Just get more in depth. alexwolf provided a lot of calculations in his sub, so I'd like you to do the same. What things can your submission no longer tank if it goes offensive and what things can it no longer nuke if it goes defensive? And why is that level of power/bulk threshold preferable. At the moment it's just an unsupported argument restating the fact that it's a less powerful spread overall. We could tell that by looking at the BSR in the first place. I want you to point out more specific examples of what alexwolf's spread can hit hard with the 252 SpAtk EVs your spread wouldn't be running on a 252 HP set when it's trying to match alexwolf's bulk (and vice versa for your lower bulk when you match alexwolf's power.) Then tell me why those are important things for us to do worse against.
I was going to answer in detail to your questions, but I realized my spread just does not differentiate enough from alexwolf's one to deserve being slated itself. I indeed think my own spread is slightly better not for any specific reason or calculation, but because it does the same things with slightly less bulk. I am somewhat worried that spreads like Albacore's one just try to do too many things at once: they boast good bulk thanks to sheer HP stat (Albacore's one, for example, is not 2HKO'd by Azumarill's Play Rough even with 0/0 investment), workable Speed, and indeed a very big SpA. I feel spreads like mine and alexwolf's can still do everything we need to complement our core, but require to sacrifice a bit more bulk if we want to be speedy, and conversely a bit more speed if we want to be bulky. My spread was maybe an overreaction to this perceived issue, trying to keep bulk as low as possible while still doing anything required, which I felt would have helped us staying inside the limits the "build triangle" imposes. However, I'm still failing to find something (a calc, I guess) that really differentiate my spread from alexwolf's one, so I guess I'll just throw my support behind his one (he surely made a much bigger effort in explaining his choices comared to me...).
 

Deck Knight

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In reviewing the spread I decided to keep it as is, because taking away PT to raise the other stats would make it too similar to Clankenator's. As far as the Build Triangle, I'll readily admit that, as in most things, I build spreads that are more balanced and versatile by design. However, I think even though my spread has more physical bulk than many others, it doesn't qualify as any of "Bulky," "Fast," or "Powerful" unless you invest in that stat. And the stat needs roughly full investment to be considered any of those. So you really can Pick Two: build up Speed to be fast, build up a defense to be Bulky, or build up SpA to be "Powerful." As you can see from the Calculations, it really does need a double boost of LO AND Analytic to be very threatening to bulkier opponents. It's not something you want to switch into, but once you're in, defeating it is much easier.

I'll work on some more explanations to address your concerns, but I'm comfortable with it as built, and will mark it as an FS tonight.
 

Albacore

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Albacore
I don't think I need to provide any comments on 89 speed. We all know what you're looking for. However, your spread differs from what many expect of something in an offensive core by being bulkier but less of a nuke. You accompany this decision with a lot of talk about Life Orb. I guess my main question for you is this: Is it better to be bulkier and rely on Life Orb for the extra damage output or to be more of a nuke off the bat and rely on Leftovers to augment bulk. Admittedly it's not an even trade off. The Life Orb makes CAP 18 far more powerful than even a set with 140 SpAtk and Leftovers. Similarly the 6.25% recovery of Leftovers each turn quickly surpasses the bulk of the LO set that loses 10% each time it attacks. The key with using those items on those particular builds of spreads is an important decision to make and I'd recommend you invest some time into calcs along the lines of 252 HP / 252 Speed (mostly Timid, but Modest I suppose too, since most Exca are Adamant), complementing the overall bulk that sets your spread apart from many, while not forfeiting the whole benefit of being faster than Excadrill in the first place. I know that sort of spread won't hit like a truck, but it should be able to tank a lot of things and maybe even spread burns while doing so. While it's a polljump to assume certain moves, there are many good sets that could use that sort of EV investment. That may be one good way to further distinguish your spread.
Thanks for your comment! I've actually played around with EV investment and found two neat sets, the "Fairykiller" and "Groundkiller", which are able to, repectively, take care of Azumarill and Excadrill particularly well. In fact, Modest with only Defense and Speed investment actually nets the important KOs against the 3 bulky grounds we primarily want to threaten, so your suggestion turned out to be a pretty good one! However, these sets both deal with Aegislash worse than the usual sets, especially for the Groundkiller. I think that's more or less what my spread does : it can be adjusted to deal with threats to the core both defensively and offensively, but can't deal with them all at the same time. For instance, going with the Life Orb Timid spread turns you into an offensive threat that can scare out Grounds (although, when I was doing these calcs, I realized that Timid is generally inferior to Modest, since the latter nets too many important KOs to ignore), but can't handle Fairies quite as well. Jack-of-all-trades may not be the right word, since it can definitely be tailored to do primarily one thing, but the actual stats themselves leave enough room to select which threats it wants to deal with without being able to deal with all of them, and I think it's this versatility that makes my spread stand out from the others.
 
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In reviewing the spread I decided to keep it as is, because taking away PT to raise the other stats would make it too similar to Clankenator's. As far as the Build Triangle, I'll readily admit that, as in most things, I build spreads that are more balanced and versatile by design. However, I think even though my spread has more physical bulk than many others, it doesn't qualify as any of "Bulky," "Fast," or "Powerful" unless you invest in that stat. And the stat needs roughly full investment to be considered any of those. So you really can Pick Two: build up Speed to be fast, build up a defense to be Bulky, or build up SpA to be "Powerful." As you can see from the Calculations, it really does need a double boost of LO AND Analytic to be very threatening to bulkier opponents. It's not something you want to switch into, but once you're in, defeating it is much easier.

I'll work on some more explanations to address your concerns, but I'm comfortable with it as built, and will mark it as an FS tonight.
if i dont get slated im going to fully support your set its by far my favorite just because of it's versatitlty although 41 atk seems slightly low for real mons
 
Just updated my stat submission, I decided to decrease some of the stats because I feel it might have been BSR abuse, if anybody has any questions please ask me, and please offer feedback
 

alexwolf

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srk1214 said:
alexwolf
Your spread is ironically one of the more unique spreads despite being closer to what I expected than anyone else. Also, among all the spreads I've called out here for comment, yours has nearly exactly average bulk in both PT and ST. It's also the closest to the average BSR of all spreads. And it's not just the numbers. Looking into the calcs in general, I can tell that you walk a nice balance overall between bulk, speed, and power. I am somewhat concerned overall that because it's not clearly sacrificing any of the 3 that perhaps it may violate the build triangle. This may be unfounded though, since it's not particularly fantastic at any of the three either. Furthermore, the build triangle is more than just the raw stats too, so I think we could handle this spread and keep it within the triangle when it comes to movepool. But it is probably the one that is most threatening of doing so by giving such a versatile base in its stats. There's a reason that ganj4lf submitted a nearly identical spread that went ahead and sacrificed bulk. Think about what I've said here and present a clear argument for why it definitely won't violate the build triangle. What safeguards will need to be taken in movepool to ensure this? Do you think your spread would be broken with a recovery move, for example? I was looking at the 3 attacks Lefties set and certainly thought about a recovery move there as a fantastic "filler." Do you think that would be too good and why? I ask because with many other spreads submitted here, that potential recovery move probably wouldn't be broken.
As you said yourself, the triangle is more than raw stats. For example, i would consider the CAP fairly weak on the physical side, due to its common weaknesses, weakness to SR, and only slightly above average physical bulk, meaning that most offensive physical attackers can OHKO it after SR, and many even without. As for the special bulk, while it's surely pretty good, it's undermined a lot by the SR weakness, weakness of the CAP to very common special attacking types, and the CAP's relative low Speed in comparison to most offensive Pokemon. So, even though the power part of the triangle is definitely there, the Speed and bulk parts are both average in the OU metagame, which is perfectly fine.

To give more specific examples, here is how the best (according to the viability ranking thread, from S to B ranks) faster physical attackers of OU fare against the CAP with my spread, assuming 252 HP EVs (Heatran = CAP):
  • 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 392-464 (97 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
  • 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 392-464 (97 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
  • 252 Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 262-310 (64.8 - 76.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 288-340 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 300-354 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 421-499 (104.2 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 252 Atk Thundurus Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 324-384 (80.1 - 95%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 283-334 (70 - 82.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 Atk Choice Scarf Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 408-480 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 252 Atk Choice Scarf Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 426-504 (105.4 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 252 Atk Choice Scarf Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 404-476 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 426-502 (105.4 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 252 Atk Choice Scarf Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 284-336 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 426-502 (105.4 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 312-369 (77.2 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
So, any physical attacker faster than the CAP, which are a lot, can OHKO the CAP, half of them with the help of SR and the other half without. And mind you, this is the most bulky set that the CAP would run. This makes sure the the CAP is easy to outrun and OHKO, but it can still tank some powerful blows and OHKO back, provided SR is off the field, making Latias's Defog support even more helpful.

I think this is more than enough to show that my spread is not overly bulky or fast, and thus doesn't violate the triangle.

jas61292 said:
Part of what we decided we wanted to do with this CAP is threaten ground types. However, due to having a typing weak to ground, that is not really possible to do defensively, for the most part. Rather, if we are to threaten them, we need the power to do so.
This is not true. The best way to threaten Ground-types is to outspeed them, as we have a Water STAB to hit them with, meaning that power is not the issue. We already have the means to hit them hard, what we need to do is outspeed them, at least the most slower ones, such as Mamoswine, Excadrill, and Landorus-T. And your spread fails to do this, which is very problematic imo. We decided that we should be able to deal Ground-types in some way, and your spread doesn't do this at all.
 
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I'm probably speaking out of my butt, but(two butts haha) doesn't the life orb only take health when you use damaging move? wouldn't that mean your bulk would stay in tact as long as you were conservative with offense. and with the life orb, as long as your speed is high, the extra damage helps you deal with pokes that threaten your bulk so wouldn't the best offense make survive-ability better."A fantastic offense is the best defense" i know with the stat spread you quoted the life orb maybe a little overkill, but it is a very nice thing to have my spread because it allows you to use a timid nature making sure you can out speed all unscarfed threats. So why should the life orb be discouraged for the Cap in general?
but is our pokemon not analytic. We do not want it too fast. At least that is my take.
 
but is our pokemon not analytic. We do not want it too fast. At least that is my take.
But analytic is meant to be a switching punisher not a reliable power boost. With a high speed you have offensive presence and a bonus boost from switching. Which is the point of this Cap's analytic ability I thought, right?
 
I've altered my spread's base Attack and Defense so it isn't guilty of BSR abuse while having sufficient physical bulk to take powerful physical hits and retaliate.
 
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