CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[RafferJacks]

Aftermath would be a solid secondary ability for this strategy. If this enforcer goes down, this ability would be a kind of a last ditch effort on its way out. It would also make sense for a geyser-like explosive effect.

 

[CerberusSONE]

Aftermath would be a solid secondary ability for this strategy. If this enforcer goes down, this ability would be a kind of a last ditch effort on its way out. It would also make sense for a geyser-like explosive effect.

Considering that Aftermath requires that KO hit to be a contact move, it makes for a very unreliable ability. It doesn't overshadow Analytic, but it does not provide a solid support for CAP18 D:

 

[RafferJacks]

Considering that Aftermath requires that KO hit to be a contact move, it makes for a very unreliable ability. It doesn't overshadow Analytic, but it does not provide a solid support for CAP18 D:

Alright fair enough! Sorry I'm new to this and still trying to figure everything out, but thank you for the feedback

 

[FireArrow]

We seem to have 4 categories of moves with support:

Counter Subtoxic Aegislash: This includes status immunity abilities + infiltrator. Status immunity abilities are nice, but infiltrator is by far the best option in this category as already explained multiple times. Marvel Scale isn't worth anything, simply because extra passive damage is not something CAP18 appreciates. As I expressed earlier, though, I would much rather cross this bridge at a more solid stage in the proses.
Counter Azumarill/Mawile: Out of the things we're supposed to counter, these are probably what we have the most problems with (bar ground types.) Abilities such as flame body give us a very nice chance to completely cripple them. While unsuggested, I think mummy would be the best option for this goal. Giving us a 100% chance to wall them after a hit without permanently taking them out of the match from hax just sounds so much more appealing.

Counter Ground Types: I really regret picking a fire typed mon, ground types gleefully waltz all over our core. Levitate is by far the best way counteract this... we'd just never want to pick analytic in that case. Speed boosting options would be the second most reliable (hint: unreliable) way to do this. Rattled is absolutely perfect, its a missing puzzle piece on how perfectly it fits into what we want to do. Switch in to aegislash, get a speed boost, out 1v1 every ground type. I'm a bit worried about 135 SpAtk at +1 speed though, which is why I think Gooey is a good alternative.

Type Immunity: Why? Electric immunity allows us to take lati@s's T-Bolt and Rotom-W's volt switch. Water immunity only helps with Azumarill, which other abilities do along with Mawile. Levitate is great, but broken.

EDIT:

I know there's fear of Infiltrator outclassing Analytic. Please tell me how that can be. With CAP's typing and great Special Attack stat, a ton of switches can be forced, which means the switch-in is going to get absolutely nuked unless it's Goodra or Chansey. The only truly important targets with Infiltrator are Mawile and Aegislash that run Substitute. These sets are actually good examples to compare to Infiltrator because these sets are designed to take on Pokemon that handle them normally, but lose some utility compared to standard sets. Aegislash only being able to use one attack and Mawile not being able to Swords Dance count as losses of utility. Infiltrator is in the same boat, only specializing in beating Substitute Mawile, Aegislash, and Gliscor while losing the nuclear power that Analytic provides. Though Infiltrator has useful perks, Analytic would usually be the more consistent option.

Because with 135 SpAtk, we're nuking things anyways. I run max SpAtk Scarf Rotom-H on my team (mind you, only 105 ApAtk) and the opposing fire resist can only take about 2 Overheats before being unable to switch in again. The only Pokemon who can really take it are completely invested tanks that resist it, which do not want to be tricked the scarf. If we have 30 more base SpAtk, I'd consider passing up on a 30% boost to be able to tear up subs - pretty much the only thing standing my way after switching in. I don't think it would outclass Analytic, though it could end up being right up there next to it in usage.

 

[FireArrow]

But why not mummy/flame body, which helps with more threats (mawile, scizor, etc.) than Azumarill without giving us an unneeded ability to check all water types?

 

[schlondark]

Infiltrator seems to be the best Idea because it lets us stay on-concept by allowing us to tell sub-toxic aegislash "NO" while not helping in any way against the toxic damage from the blobs that we're supposed to be susceptible to; which is otherwise a conundrum to deal with: Lose to ST aegislash or forgo the blobs' best abilities to check us.

It also really doesn't Overshadow Analytic for the most part due to not providing any extra offensive presence except against very specific threats.

 

[alexwolf]

Infiltrator, Immunity, and Marvel Scale are the best options, and the only ones i would choose over NCA. Immunity is a rather useless ability when compared to Analytic, but the ability to deal better with SubToxic Aegislash could be nice on some teams, so i see nothing wrong with this ability. Chansey and Blissey can still beat the CAP 1-on-1, so no problem here, especially since 95% of the time the CAP will be using Analytic.

As for Marvel Scale, it's even more niche than Immunity as it doesn't directly deal with Toxic but rather, it allows the CAP to check better some of the threats it wants to, namely Mega Mawile, Azumarill, and some Ground-types, if it happens to catch a Toxic from Heatran or Aegislash or whatever.

Finally, Flame Body is certainly nice for Pokemon such as Mega Mawile and Azumarill, but it could also end up burning Pokemon that are supposed to beat or threaten us, such as Dragon-types using Outrage or Thundurus using Wild Charge, which is why i don't like it.

Infiltrator > Immunity > Marvel Scale > NCA for me

 

[Pokefan217]

Wonder Skin seems like a ability worth mentioning. The first two I mentioned were just to be different and I thought they would make people consider them even if barely. Enough talking about that, and I believe Wonder Skin has potential because it changes the accuracy of a status move from its current accuracy to 50%. While not op, it's also unreliable, with a 50% chance to get hit by a status move , but that's my opinion. What do you guys think of Wonder Skin even though a couple other people already mentioned Wonder Skin?

 

[EternalSnowman]

I personally think that Infiltrator has the possibility of being used over Analytic, because of the support it provides for teams, not only going through Substitue but also Dual Screens so it beats pokemon like Espeon which are common dual screeners.

I support either Filter or Mold Breaker. If you read my last post I said stuff about Filter. Mold Breaker seems like a great ability to just hit things on the switch as well as nailing Dragonite and Mega-Venusaur. Very niche as it only really covers 4 Pokemon (Dragonite, Mega-Venusaur, Donphan, Skarmory) along with things on the switch like Heatran and Jellicent.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Out of the abilities proposed so far, Infiltrator and Marvel Scale are my personal favorites. The former has already been talked about sufficiently, so I'd like to focus on the latter instead.

For starters, Chansey and Blissey don't care about the Defense boost because their main forms of damage, Seismic Toss and Toxic, ignore Defense. Goodra, Latias, and Latios also don't care because all three are primarily special attackers. Offensively, Excadrill can ignore it thanks to Mold Breaker, but damage from a few other physical threats is reduced.


252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP 18: 470-554 (116.3 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Marvel Scale CAP 18: 314-372 (77.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after toxic damage

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP 18: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Marvel Scale CAP 18: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after toxic damage


So, Marvel Scale allows CAP 18 to better deal with some physical threats, but I think it's clearly overshadowed by Analytic, which is precisely what is called for in choosing this ability.

I agree both these abilities our are best bet, as they do something to Aegislash (Specifically SubToxic); It makes Aegislash think before it uses a move.

Infiltrator makes Aegislash think twice before it decides to Substitute up. The player must say to themselves, do I really want to Substitute up and risk getting hit hard by a STAB Fire-type attack?

Marvel Scale, on the other hand, makes Aegislash think twice about using Toxic. The player must say to themselves, do I really want to Toxic and risk making it harder for my CB Talonflame to sweep late-game?

So basically, both these abilities are good, and make it so SubToxic Aegislash can't set up without risking hurting either himself or his teammates. I personally feel Marvel Scale is probably our best option, as Infiltrator might be a little too overpowered, as it passes through other Substitute users as well as Dual Screens.

 

[hendrix96]

Infiltrator> Rattled> Dry Skin> Mold Breaker
are my favorites,
-infiltrator works well with analytic
-Rattled Discourages attacking latias because it means that dragon moves are the only safe super effective moves to use on latias since bug, dark, and ghost moves make the cap into a fierce sweeper and ice pretty much gives the cap a free switch in this makes the core quite a bit more effective but might overshadow analytic.
-Dry Skin gives the cap a niche as the only fire pokemon to benefit from rain and gives it a imunnity to water which always good.
-Mold breaker is similar to infiltrator it causes switches and therefore works well with analytic, but it isn't as effective as infiltrator since it announces itself when the pokemon enters the field. However it does make the cap into a fantastic choice user something that infiltrator doesn't do as well.

 

[Yayz]

Counter Azumarill/Mawile: Out of the things we're supposed to counter, these are probably what we have the most problems with (bar ground types.) Abilities such as flame body give us a very nice chance to completely cripple them. While unsuggested, I think mummy would be the best option for this goal. Giving us a 100% chance to wall them after a hit without permanently taking them out of the match from hax just sounds so much more appealing.

Mummy is a curious option. With good special bulk, physical hits are a better way to hit us- and then we screw them over by getting rid of their Huge Power.

I've seen some mention of Dry Skin, and I'm not really sure what it would help against, but it gives us a water immunity and we still take 1/2 damage from fire attacks, which has to count for something.

Infiltrator is, of course, the hot topic, so I'll weigh in on it: It's certainly more niche than Analytic. Its mere existence scares SubToxic Aegislash into horrible mindgames (moreso than Aegislash usually brings to the table), and hits other common Sub users. Probably not as good as Analytic in my opinion, because with that special attack CAP 18 should be forcing a lot of switches, which allows us to nuke things even more, or just nuke our original target, as was discussed.

Mold Breaker lets us hit Heatran with fire-type attacks, but has the unfortunate side-effect of announcing to the world what our ability is. I understand that the goal is to make this ability (mostly) bad, but Mold Breaker would border on useless because it removes the surprise factor of the secondary ability's niche.

For my last point, I'm gonna pull an ability out of a hat and weigh in on it: Pickup allows us to switch into knock off and troll people by stealing their item Justified could be interesting if our base attack wasn't that of a dry stick. Never mind.

 

[PttP]

And so with that it's about time to wrap this up and put in the slate:

Infiltrator
Cloud Nine
Mold Breaker
No Competitive Ability

What I was looking for in this stage were abilities that had very few niche purposes and nothing beyond that. Infiltrator is very niche in the fact that it is literally only useful for beating Substitute users, which are fairly rare to begin with, and Dual Screens offense. Cloud Nine only beats thing like Sand Rush Excadrill and makes it easier to pummel things like Tyranitar with no other added benefit. Mold Breaker is very restricted because of our STAB coverage, and NCA is there if you think Analytic is fine by itself.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

This slate's fine, the only modification I was considering making was adding Immunity to the slate, but Immunity is only partially pro-concept and marginally viable at best. It only helps for switching into SubToxic Aeigslash's Toxic attack, but forgoing Analytic means we can't even punish the switch-in the way we would like to. In practice, CAP18 will almost never want to run Immunity over Analytic. You could even make a case that Immunity is a Non-Competitive Ability, but its marginal worth likely excludes it from that category.

I'm definitely a fan of this slate, and I'm going to leave it as is. Let's get to voting :)