CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 9 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

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Cretacerus

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In the Attacking Moves Discussion, CAP18 was already given the exact tools and coverage he needs to deal with our threatlist offensively, so further damage dealing options such as Super Fang or Counter Coat are redundant and only risk messing with our counters, therefore they should be disallowed.
When choosing our Non-Attacking Moves, we should be focused on covering up gaps in the defensive department, especially considering our weakness to Stat Boosters and Scarfers.

Thunder Wave should be allowed. As a member of an offensive core, we want CAP18 to be countered mainly by Pokemon that can threaten it defensively, namely Water and Dragon types which resist both of its STABs. However, the problem with that is that Dragon types such as Latias (and more so Latios) can also pose a huge offensive threat to our core, as we have nothing to take their strong attacks or even revenge kill them reliably. This puts us into a difficult situation: we have limit the offensive potential of Dragons, while retaining them as defensive threats. Our best bet to achieve this is to lower their speed, making them much more manageable for the rest of our core, and paralysis seems the most effective way to do so. Infiltrator allows us to hit Dragon Dancers such as Mega-Charizard-X and Dragonite even behind a substitute, so they can't use CAP18 to set up and proceed to sweep our team.
Although Glare has the benefit of also hitting threatening Ground types such as Scarfed Garchomp, Excadrill or Landorus-T, those are already covered sufficiently between our STAB moves and Will-O-Wisp, and Glare is one of those moves that can be used without much thought and consequences, unlike Thunder Wave which always involves the small risk of giving said Ground types a free switch in.

Sacrificial Support Moves should be allowed. The cost of using these moves are very high, but what they provide is almost unrivaled momentum, which is something Lucario needs very desperately compared to other set-up sweepers. Although Healing Wish is normally more useful for bulkier Pokemon, it gives Lucario the chance to shine in its niche as late game sweeper with Extreme Speed, while also healing it from potential burns.

All Boosting Moves should be disallowed. Besides boosts to Special Attacks, I don't think any of these moves would be too powerful on CAP18, especially with the lack of reliable recovery. They do, however, lead us into the wrong direction, as stat boosting moves discourage the user from pivoting and supporting, roles that we want CAP18 to take up in order to facilitate Lucario's sweep.

Allow Stealth Rock. Disallow Spikes, Toxic Spikes and Sticky Web. Lucario really enjoys having entry hazards up when attempting a sweep, as this is the best way for offensive teams to get prior damage on the opponent. However, since Latias will commonly be using Defog, the most effective way to keep the own hazards up throughout the match is to have access to it within the core itself. The type of hazard that works together the best with Defog is of course Stealth Rock, as it only needs one turn to set up. The danger when using Spikes is that a Rapid Spinner would end up being much more preferable over Latias.
Toxic Spikes does not help Lucario too much during his sweep, as the damage will only kick in at the end of each turn. Also, it is dangerous in that it allows CAP18 to wear down its defensive counters, especially in combination with Substitute, making it less reliant on Lucario and Latias.
Finally, Sticky Web, not unlike Parting Shot, provides incredible benefits for just about any team, many of which can take better advantage of them then Lucario and Latias. It would be way to defining for CAP18 and overshadow the traits we gave it to fit it into our core.

Topsy Turvy should be allowed. This is probably the best way to punish all those Stat Boosters that trouble our core, most importantly Dragon Dancers such as Gyarados and Dragons, Belly Drum Azumarill and Calm Mind Clefable. Although Clear Smog already deals with them to a certain extend, this goes a step further and will actively deter them from even trying. Of course, we have to be wary of combining it with Overheat, but overall I see this move as very beneficial for our concept.
 
Topsy Turvy is a very interesting option. None of our counters really need set up, but several of the things we should handle (Clefable and Azumarill for example) usually abuse stat boosts. It would definitely give us something to do against a Clefable that's netted two Calm Minds by the time we switch in.
 
Cretacerus, I don't understand why you would allow SR but not the other Hazard. Indeed, pokemons that must threaten our CAP, namely Rotom-W or Lati@s, has acces to levitate, so they don't mind Spikes while being damaged by SR. I first wanted to allow Spikes or Sticky Web, because those two Hazards really help Lucario, and not SR, however I saw people arguing against it because it's not our CAP role and we didn't create it for being the only Sticky Web leader viable. So I'll say Disallow all type of Hazard, or Allow Spikes but not SR.
 

alexwolf

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Stealth Rock is not so influential, especially on a Pokemon that is checked by two of the best offensive Defog users, because there is already huge competition for such a role, with arguably much better SR setters. Also, Stealth Rock can't be stacked like Spikes and Toxic Spikes can, so using it with Defog Latias is perfectly viable, where with the other two hazards you would probably prefer to use Excadrill to preserve your layers of hazards. As for Sticky Web, there are zero OU Pokemon that learn this move, so it is obvious that if such a good Pokemon as the CAP gets this move it is very likely that the Pokemon will focus on setting and keeping up Sticky Web for its teammates to take advantage of instead of being used in a core with Latias and Lucario, which goes against our concept.

So basically, SR is the only hazard that won't shift the CAP's focus to this of a dedicated hazard setter or discourage its use with Latias, and gives to our core a bit more self sufficiency in case Stealth Rock is hard to fit on the other team members, which i think is something good. And as i already mentioned, the CAP won't be a particularly good or reliable SR setter due to its mediocre Speed by offensive standards, weakness to SR and lack of recovery by defensive standards, and the fact that it is checked by two very common Defog users, Latios and Latias.

And the argument that the CAP can beat certain checks easier with SR up is irrelevant, as SR is a standard battle condition and there are much better SR setters than the CAP. Any team uses SR, so it's not like the CAP will need some sort of ''extra support'' to have SR up.

Finally, disallow Wish. It's for all intends and purposes reliable recovery, and as already mentioned, Latias already has reliable recovery, and Lucario either gets KOed by most Pokemon or it takes little from their attacks, so Wish passing will hardly be relevant to Lucario.
 

Cretacerus

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Cretacerus, I don't understand why you would allow SR but not the other Hazard. Indeed, pokemons that must threaten our CAP, namely Rotom-W or Lati@s, has acces to levitate, so they don't mind Spikes while being damaged by SR. I first wanted to allow Spikes or Sticky Web, because those two Hazards really help Lucario, and not SR, however I saw people arguing against it because it's not our CAP role and we didn't create it for being the only Sticky Web leader viable. So I'll say Disallow all type of Hazard, or Allow Spikes but not SR.
The usefulness of entry hazards is not limited to just CAP18, but benefits the entire core and team, which overall should not be specifically weak to Rotom-W or Latias/Latios. I would even argue that the main reason for entry hazards to be included is actually Lucario, so taking into account how they effect Lucario's set of counters would probably be more relevant.
However, the main reason for Stealth Rock over Spikes is that it synergizes a lot better with Defog Latias, which is very important for both to function together within one core
 
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Regarding Sunny Day/Rain Dance while they would provide incredible boost to their respective types, the other would be severely hindered. Having said this, Fire Blast is still hitting those that resist it for more than enough (252+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W in Sun: 136-160 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (I hope I've done that calc right, haha)) Furthermore, it already boasts more than enough attack power and we could do with preventing any supplementary moves to increase this. Even though it requires a turn to set up, I don't foresee it being that hard for CAP18 to accomplish, with the typing and power it has, it's bound to scare plenty off.

About Yawn, it is good for CAP18 since, unless the opposing player decides to suffer with a slept pokemon, it would almost always force a switch enabling the analytic boost to occur. However, is it good for the core as a whole? yawn > fire blast > repeat, could it force a singular role for CAP? It seems like it may promote a more 'glass cannon' playstyle, taking a hit when using yawn and nuking whoever comes in. In this situation we would only lean on Latias when we need something to take an earthquake/thunderbolt or whatever can do sufficient damage.

Topsy Turvy isn't a bad suggestion, if i remember correctly, it only hits the opponent and couldn't transform our -0.5x Sp.Att from an Overheat into a x2. It seems like a viable way to deal with CM Clefable in particular, along with any set up sweepers we have problems with. We can already deal with these problems with Clear smog and presumably haze.

All in all, after having a good think about all this, I feel we need to really limit the support moves we allow. So that CAP18 remains balanced in itself, and its' functions don't transcend beyond the core (Sticky Web being a prime example here).
 
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I think we should Disallow Trick Room. With Analytic, its too powerful to have, it lets us get the boost on many of the pokemon we are trying to counter, like Chansey, Blissey, and Rotom, and we should not be trying to be slower then them. It also doesn't help the core at all, if anything it hurts it.

Disallow Sunny Day/Rain Dance. It hinders our counters to much (Espically Sunny Day) Not only that but it boost our Fire Attacks to insane levels, just look at Fire Blast.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 291-343 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 351-414 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo in Sun: 322-380 (99.6 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Rotom-W in Sun: 195-230 (64.1 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra in Sun: 107-126 (27.8 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 237-279 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 273-321 (90.3 - 106.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Disallow Healing Wish but Allow other Sacrificial Support Moves. People seem to be forgeting that Latias carries Healing Wish, so giving it will remove that niche from her, and we just banned hazard removal for this, so do the same to healing wish. I don't mind other Sacrifical Support moves since they are so risky anyways, and nobody else in the core can use them.
 
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Topsy Turvy isn't a bad suggestion, if i remember correctly, it only hits the opponent and couldn't transform our -0.5x Sp.Att from an Overheat into a x2. It seems like a viable way to deal with CM Clefable in particular, along with any set up sweepers we have problems with. We can already deal with these problems with Clear smog and presumably haze.
Also worth noting is that, as opposed to Clear Smog or Haze, Topsy Turvy turns Clefable's boosts into stat reductions, which would likely force another switch--something we're supposed to be taking advantage of.

I'm also in favor of Allowing Topsy Turvy for now, but there also hasn't been any arguments against it yet.

EDIT: I almost forgot to mention; I'm also leaning towards Disallow Substitute, unless we do something drastic like retroactively give CAP18 a base HP stat of 99 to remove its 101 substitutes.
 
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Jho

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wow I completley forgot about Topsy Turvey. It makes sense on our CAP as it stops belly drum Azumarill, boosting aegislash, CM clefable etc without boosting 18 itself, therefore i'm in favour of Allowing Topsy Turvey
 
People are arguing that Topsy Turvy can undermine Clefable's boosting goals. However, I'm not sure if Unaware factors in the wielder's own stat drops.
For everything else, however, it really works. Landorus-T tries to nab a Rock Polish or a Swords Dance, and we foil his setup plans with Topsy Turvy. So it basically flips-and-foils setup sweepers' intentions, granting CAP18 the ability to provide more support for its teammates.
One problem I have with this move is, just like the problem with Parting Shot, it has potential to force switches like crazy.
I fear that Topsy Turvy also has the potential to gain its own stall set. We're disallowing a lot of recovery moves, luckily, but what's stopping us from giving CAP18 a stall set working around TT? Given that we voted on a set providing 95 speed, does Topsy Turvy have the potential to be abused, overshadowing the concept to utilize team functions?
 
Unaware only ignore the opponent's stat changes, regardless of whether they are positive or negative. The user's stat changes remain unaffected.
How exactly can Topsy Turvy be used for stall exactly? The opponent would have to use a boost in order to for Topsy Turvy to have any affect at all and I highly doubt anybody would repeatedly boost on 18 after it's confirmed to have this move. :/
 
People are arguing that Topsy Turvy can undermine Clefable's boosting goals. However, I'm not sure if Unaware factors in the wielder's own stat drops.
For everything else, however, it really works. Landorus-T tries to nab a Rock Polish or a Swords Dance, and we foil his setup plans with Topsy Turvy. So it basically flips-and-foils setup sweepers' intentions, granting CAP18 the ability to provide more support for its teammates.
One problem I have with this move is, just like the problem with Parting Shot, it has potential to force switches like crazy.
I fear that Topsy Turvy also has the potential to gain its own stall set. We're disallowing a lot of recovery moves, luckily, but what's stopping us from giving CAP18 a stall set working around TT? Given that we voted on a set providing 95 speed, does Topsy Turvy have the potential to be abused, overshadowing the concept to utilize team functions?
Don't forget, Topsy Turvy would only work on those trying to set up on us. Where as parting shot has an effect on every single attacking pokemon.
Once the opponent has felt the negativity of TT once, they'd refrain from boosting on CAP18 again. It would probably force one switch per game - I can't see potential for it to be abused. Topsy Turvy is a deterrent for setting up, similarly to Haze and Clear Smog. It's largely a waste of time to try setting up on a pokemon carrying these moves.

EDIT: SubSplit Toxic on the other hand could end up being a stall set
 
A few more moves

Disallow Ingrain
First of all, if we have aqua ring there would be no reason for it, as the are almost identical. Also, the only distinct battle difference is that Ingrain traps you, the opposite of what we want to accomplish. Finally (don't delete this mods, it's a small part of my post) it makes little sense flavor-wise.

Also, Disallow Weather
With weather up,CAP18 will become too good of a standalone pokèmon. If base 135 SpA wasn't enough, giving him weather would allow him to destroy everything. In fact, it is actually detrimental to the core, as Latias won't be able to tank hits from the type boosted from the weather, and it makes lucario's already bad bulk and fire weakness even worse, encouraging the opposite of the original concept.

We can't forget to Disallow Super Fang
Did some calculations, and after being hit by a super fang, blissey, is almost always 4HKOed with fire blast with modest max SpA LO analytic CAP18 and 252HP 4SpD leftovers Blissey. Now imagine that on less bulky pokemon that should counter us like Goodra and Rotom-W

Last but not least, let's Allow Topsy-Turvy
To be honest, I forgot this was even a move until someone brought it up. However, after hearing what people said, I agree. Only two viable sets any of our counters use are CM Keldeo and Lati@s, making it a fairly safe option. Also, it helps us reverse the boosts of some we should threaten, like CM Clefable, belly drum azumarrill, and SD Excadrill.
 

Deck Knight

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Going to drop the cluebat on a few things here:

Sunny Day / Rain Dance:

If you're going to argue against these moves, don't use Specs + Weather Calcs. It should be pretty obvious why, seeing as Choice Specs makes Sunny Day stupidly impractical on its own and also means you aren't running Heat Rock. I suppose you could run Life Orb, but at that point you still need to find the set up turn, anything that comes in on your setup turn isn't eating an Analytic attack, and anything slower than CAP won't eat Analytic boosted attacks at all. Sunny Day is also, specifically, an invitation to Heatran to come in, eat your Fire Blast, and nuke your entire team with its own Fire moves after eliminating CAP with Earth Power (or even spamming its own Fire Blast. 4x Resist vs STAB + Sun + Flash Fire is about neutral. If it's Specs, it's slightly less powerful than if it were neutral FB.)

Also, there's no difference in damage in regards to Rain Hydro Pump vs. Sun Fire Blast, save the latter's burn chance and higher accuracy. CAP itself obviously does better in sun defensively, but IMO Rain is still more dangerous because the likely switch-ins to CAP resist both Fire and Water, but assume more safety in Rain thinking they'll be eating a weakened Fire Blast instead of a boosted Hydro Pump. Latias also benefits more from Rain as it's more apt to run Surf or Thunder than HP Fire.

SubSplit:

Only one of these arguments can prevail: CAP Shouldn't have SubSplit because of 101HP Subs, or CAP shouldn't have SubSplit because it aids it in stalling out blobs.

Fact is, Pain Split is a HORRIBLE move for mons with 100 Base HP. By definition you're actually going to lose HP against the huge number of Pokemon sitting at values like Base 60 and Base 80, and if you actually invest in HP, you're basically targeting the set solely to the Blobs... and STILL losing to them. Sub / Split / Toxic / STAB is not really a great set.

Back to specific moves:

I like Topsy Turvy because it's a specific way to address threats to our core with the proper prediction, without turning CAP itself into a sweeper. Memento is a huge help in allowing Luke to set up as a sacrifice play, so allow.
 

ginganinja

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Thunder Wave should be allowed. As a member of an offensive core, we want CAP18 to be countered mainly by Pokemon that can threaten it defensively, namely Water and Dragon types which resist both of its STABs. However, the problem with that is that Dragon types such as Latias (and more so Latios) can also pose a huge offensive threat to our core, as we have nothing to take their strong attacks or even revenge kill them reliably.
Look, I get this, from an early stage within this process, I was aware that there are certain dragon types can and would use the STAB resistance it has against us to their advantage. That said, giving this CAP Thunder Wave utterly cripples Latias, which we directly called out as something we want to lose to. There are other moves we can use to deal with the (select), group of dragon types that threaten us, while we can use a 4th mon to check our (apparent), weakness to Latias. Lets remember here that we are not playing pokemon with just 3 mons here, most cores have a weakness or a vulnerability that requires patching by other mons, and I personally see it as perfectly ok being vulnerable to Latias, although I would dislike seeing us vulnerable to something like Dragonite (which we have Power Gem for).

Although Glare has the benefit of also hitting threatening Ground types such as Scarfed Garchomp, Excadrill or Landorus-T, those are already covered sufficiently between our STAB moves and Will-O-Wisp, and Glare is one of those moves that can be used without much thought and consequences, unlike Thunder Wave which always involves the small risk of giving said Ground types a free switch in.
Thunder Wave would easily be used without thought or consequences as well, simply because Ground types cannot switch in. Look at this CAPs attack stat, look at its ability in Analytic, and its access to moves such as WoW, and as a player I cannot believe that I would even attempt to switch into this CAP with a ground type, when 50-75% of CAPs (most likely), standard moveset defeats it. In a theoretical scenario sure, you could try switching into Thunder Wave, but in practise, the Risk vs Reward is stacked against you, and thus T-Wave would end up being pretty similar to Glare.

Anyway I have updated our list in the OP, allowing and disallowing moves so it might pay to double check this. I am watching this Topsy Turvy discussion closely, and will make a call shortly, so if anyone wants to sway me to a particular view, I suggest posting sooner rather than later.
 
Disallow Flame Charge. I saw some arguments that this has interesting interaction with Analytic due to mostly negating it, but there's still the fact that this thing has 135 SpA to throw around. With boosted 95 base speed, that makes a scary sweeper, and we don't want this thing to sweep on its own - just use that massive attacking stat to hit hard.

Allow Yawn. Here's an actual example of positive interaction with Analytic. If we wanna go second to get the boost, that's two free turns of damage on Squidmon here, and though it's bulky, it still can't take that much of a beating without proper setup. But then if they do switch, heyo Analytic! If used against sweepers to shut them down CAP runs the risk of being taken out, and if used on something bulkier it's not that valuable. Given that it also forces switches if played right, I think it fits really well.

Allow Status Recovery. Status is one of the things our core is weak to, and this absolutely does not stop Blissey and Chansey from wrecking Squidmon. It just means that their impact on the rest of our core is lessened, which is fine. This would still be a niche set and I don't see it being too good at all.

Finally, though I just got ginganinja'd (hah) on this, Disallow TWave. The reason that the checks to this CAP are checks are almost entirely because of their typing resisting both its tremendous STABs and then being able to pose their own threats (the exceptions are the blobs). Switching in on CAP to take a hit and threaten it is what they're supposed to do. To allow CAP to so heavily cripple them with Thunder Wave is a scary prospect. Against the bulkier stuff, sure, it's allowable, but given we want Keldeo and Lati@s to beat us this would potentially ruin the offensive threats.
 
Since it is now a topic for discussion, I say Disallow Flame Charge
This would make CAP18 ridiculous, despite it seeming harmless. In fact, a max speed timid out speeds every unboosted Pokémon in existence other than deoxys s with the same spread. While some may think being fast may ruin analytic, you can run infiltrator, switch in on an attack and sweep, or nuke with hydro pump, fire blast, and a coverage move during early to midgame while waiting until late game where you boost your speed and sweep. Also, the move takes away from its role of a core, as with the boost, it wouldn't want to switch in fear of losing it, messing up the concept.

(Also, not to be rude, but why isn't aqua ring on the list ginganinja)
 
Disallow Flame Charge

CAP has the power to be able to do massive damage with just a speed boost, in fact;
Disallow Thunder Wave

The CAP already is spreading burns and is specially bulky enough to handle most Special Attackers. Plus, you know, speed.

Allow Yawn/Roar/Whirlwind/Perish Song

All basically "Make the opponent switch" moves, which is fine.

Allow Topsy Turvy

Let's look at what this move does for the CAP. It basically provides a discouragement on setting up, however it will pretty much only work once. It's a nice way to provide momentum for Lucario without being as absurd as...

Disallow Parting Show

Yes great idea give the single greatest pivot move in the game to this, that will not be absurd and broken. No.

Allow Encore

Similar to Topsy Turvy, this is a momentum grabbing move. You could use it on a resisted hit, a set up move, etc. It's not too powerful but it's useful.

Allow Substitute

Can't believe this is even in question there's no Pokemon in existence that can learn TMs that doesn't get it. Also SubSplit is pretty bad.
 
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On Topsy Turvy, there isn't really much risk involved in allowing it imo. Nothing that needs to threaten us actually uses boosting moves, save for odd Calm Mind Keldeo and Latias sets, while the following Pokemon on our threatlist use boosting moves often enough for us to be worried about them:

SD +3 Attacks Aegislash
Calm Mind Clefable
Swords Dance Mega Mawile
Belly Drum Azumarill
SD Garchomp/Lando/Excadrill

Nothing on here appreciates a Topsy Turvy, and while many of these fear STABs or a burn more than Topsy Turvy, there still is very small danger in allowing it. Topsy Turvy also helps against some other boosting sweepers like Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X or Dragonite, who aren't on our threatlist but still pose a threat to the core. Allow Topsy Turvy because it does nothing to harm us.

I'm also going to bring Baton Pass up for similar reasoning. It does nothing to harm us now that all boosting moves are disallowed (and the fact that Flame Charge + Baton Pass is retarded). It's more or less U-turn without the damage, which does a pretty decent chunk to Latias (minimum of 33% which makes Latias unable to switch in many times). Baton Pass is merely a safer alternative over U-turn for movepool submissions now, and there isn't any reason to disallow it. Allow Baton Pass.

EDIT:
After some discussion on IRC, it's been made clear to me that we have enough tools to deal with all of the targets that Topsy Turvy would hit. Clear Smog and Haze are viable stat removing options, and sweepers that could still overpower us are killed by our STABs, crippled by burn, or, in the case of Charizard X and Dragonite, are killed by Power Gem. Topsy Turvy isn't a necessary addition because CAP 18 has better things to run. I'm not saying it should be outright disallowed but it really isn't needed.
 
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Revoking my previous statement about the problems with Topsy Turvy because it wouldn't really have too much of a negative impact on our concept (strategy hiccups today).
Definitely Allow Topsy Turvy.

What about Trapping (mainly Block and Fairy Lock, then the attacking ones: Fire Spin, Whirlpool, Sand Tomb, Infestation, etc.)?
Would Trapping moves be beneficial, neutral, or harmful to our concept?

If we're disallowing stat-boosting moves, how about consider Spiky Shield? It has a higher priority than priority attacking moves (+4 to +3 and lower respectively).
One thing I think people may argue against Spiky Shield is the probably fact that it can use Spiky Shield to stack with any Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Stealth Rock damage that might be on the field (obviously not set up by CAP18), but mainly the poison condition from Toxic Spikes.
I'll let discussion develop on Spiky Shield and trapping moves.

Allow Flame Charge. If we become faster than our opponent, and it stays in, we may not get the Analytic boost. It may or may not be detrimental to our goals. On one hand we just become faster and can hit before our opponents without the Analytic boost. On the other hand, we may not get said desired boost (unless opponent switches).
Still, it really shouldn't be too detrimental nor overpowering to CAP18.
 
I'll put my word on Topsy-Turvy in.

What this move does is allows CAP to prevent Mawile, Dragonite, Azumarill, Clefable from going all setup happy. Azu is the most affected, because if it sets up a stray Belly Drum, it ends up at minus 6 and around 70% health (Sitrus Berry).

Now cons. The only one is CM Lati@s. If we are stupid enough to stay in on Lati@s, perfectly predict the CM, then Turvy it, it hurts them. But if the opponent allows this, they are bad and deserve to be beaten by what is supposed to be a free kill/switch fodder.

Allow Topsy Turvy
 

Cretacerus

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ginganinja: What I like about Thunder Wave is that it still won't allow us to defeat Latias one on one due to its defensive advantage, but it will prevent it from being such a threat to the rest of the core. I think the fact that we chose explicitly specially defensive dragons as our counters should count as something, as those are the dragons that can and should be handled by the other core members, promoting their synergy. However, I don't see the benefit of giving offensive variants the same treatment, as they are not checked by any of our core members. What do we expect to gain from having an unchecked threat to our core if we can prevent it?
To re-emphasize my main point, Thunder Wave does not prevent Latias from threatening CAP18, but it does prevent it from threatening our entire core, which in my opinion is exactly what we should be aiming for.
The main rational for allowing paralysis is to keep offensive dragons in check which resist our STABs, so having Glare is more than we need for this purpose.

EDIT: In my opinion, Latias/Latios aren't supposed to counter our entire core, and it is perfectly fine for the core to handle it reliably. Latias is merely on the list of counters for CAP18, and therefore will force it to switch out and rely on another core member to beat it.
I understand that we can cover Latias with the rest of our team, but I think that defeating it through a combination of paralysis from CAP18 and offensive prowess from the rest of the core is in line with our concept, and would make our core a lot more self sufficient.

Allow Weather Moves: They not only take up a moveslot and a turn of set up, but also limit the range of items we can run, and in turn provide an effect that is limited to pretty much one move, wears out after a couple of turns and can be mostly replicated by simply running Choice Specs. I do not see them as being too dangerous on CAP18, but admittedly they also don't contribute too much to our core. Still, I am tending to allowing them just for flavor reasons.
 
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Allow Flame Charge: It's a 50 physical base power move. At +1 speed, analytic becomes useless (we wasted our switch turn using freaking flame charge) and we're still reliably revenge killed by many scarfers/deo-S. The only non-shitty gimmick we get out of it is being able to pass the boost to lucario, which is nothing but pro concept.
 

ginganinja

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To emphasize my main point, Thunder Wave does not prevent Latias from checking CAP18,
Yes, it actually does. Paralysis means that Lati@s has a 25% chance to fully paralyse, thus preventing it from Roosting. Its still hit for full damage if it later tries to switch in, and it can no longer really "wall" this CAP due to that 25% failure chance. In addition, Thunder Wave utterly destroys Lati@s, period. If you give this CAP Thunder Wave, then suddenly Lati@s becomes less of a favourable switch in, ergo it becomes less of a counter due to the crushing effect of paralysis. This is directly affecting our Checks and Counters list. Sure, it might not ~directly~ beat Lati@s, but it a) ruins the ability of Lati@s to check the things its on your team for and b) indirectly lets you beat Lati@s eventually anyway. At the very least it goes against the spirit of checks and counters list, at worst its going directly against it.

(Also, not to be rude, but why isn't aqua ring on the list ginganinja)
Might have something to do with the fact that Aqua Ring is a garbage move, and isn't on the restricted move list (that I saw), ergo I didn't list it. If I wanted to list every single NAM move in pokemon, I expect we would be here for a good month.
 
Hmmm... Flame Charge. Let me look at it.

Damage wise, it sucks, but that is not our focus.

It is an untauntable speed boost.

Can be very useful on some sets to break things like ZardY

And, CAP non-Analytic anything on Lati@s/RotomW/Goodra does little. Only Keldeo, who is flimsy check in the first place, fears a speed boost. We also will lack Specs, so less damage.

Overall? Allow flame charge
 
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