CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 9 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

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Stealth Rock doesn't interfere with Latias' Defog. Every team that runs Defog also runs Stealth Rock, and we would like to make this core as self-sufficient as possible. CAP18 will often want to attack rather than set up Stealth Rock, and although it's more reasonable to pair this core with a dedicated Stealth Rock user such as Landorus-Therian (who I believe will be a great partner for this core), there's no reason why CAP18 shouldn't be able to provide that support itself. If we don't give CAP18 Stealth Rock, someone on CAP18's team is going to use it. Why not let CAP18 provide that support itself?

Flame Charge is a boosting move. We disallowed traditional boosting moves such as Agility and Calm Mind because they allow CAP18 to do significantly better against its counters than CAP18 should. Not only does Flame Charge fly in the face of Analytic, it marginalizes Lucario in this core. With Flame Charge, CAP18 can become a late game sweeper, punching holes in opponents early-game then finishing them off with Fire Blasts and Hydro Pumps late-game. We don't want CAP18 late-game sweeping if it's going to be paired with Lucario, and Flame Charge is a late-game sweeping move.

Thunder Wave cripples Latios and Latias, who already take a ton of damage from Lucario's ExtremeSpeed. Right now, we do exactly what we want to Latios and Latias. We can't beat them one-on-one, but we can do enough damage to them that Lucario will be able to pick them off later. With Thunder Wave, CAP18 can gamble on full paralysis to break Latios and Keldeo (Latias would take some serious luck), which we shouldn't want to happen.

Allow Stealth Rock, Disallow Flame Charge and Thunder Wave.
 
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I'm not running calcs for all Pokemon in OU, so instead, here's just two which show why I think we should allow Stealth Rock :

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 294-346 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 190-224 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (56.3% chance to OHKO if it didn't Mega-Evolve before taking SR damage)

The last calc particularly, since Bulky Talonflame is relatively rare compared to the Choice Banded variant (which can almost never avoid an OHKO even without Stealth Rock). You could make the argument that, much like Parting Shot, Stealth Rock also helps other sweepers, but Lucario's greatest niche is that it isn't stopped by priority from faster Pokemon. And since the 2 most relevant priority users in OU that are faster than Lucario are both weak to Stealth Rock, and that Lucario needs those rocks to ensure that they doesn't revenge kill him, I'd say that Stealth Rocks are pro-concept since they help him more than your average sweeper in that regard, and therefore should be allowed.
 
Substitute

I see some people saying substitute will cause us to hard counter chansey/blissey. The only way this would happen is if we got reliable recovery AND had enough power to 3hko the blobs without analytic. Also, when we voted on this spread, we had several other options that wouldn't make 101 hp subs, and we chose this one. However, if we choose to allow pain split, sub becomes a powerful weapon against the blobs.

Pain Split

While I would love to have pain split, against high hp pokemon like the blobs, it is reliable recovery. While this would not on its own allow us to hard counter them, they would no longer be counters to CAP. If sub is disallowed, however, pain split becomes viable without losing chansey/blissey as counters.

Flame Charge
We agreed that speed boosting was against the concept, therefore flame charge is also.

Yawn

Yawn is often used more for forcing switches than the sleep itself, and CAP wants to force as many switches as possible.

Topsy Turvy

Topsy turvy helps against pokemon we want to hurt, and only hurts calm mind variants of lati@s.

Encore/Disable

Both of these moves allow us to counter chansey/blissey.

Heal Bell/Aromatherapy

I don't see a problem with allowing these moves. If we don't have reliable recovery, the blobs can still kill us with seismic toss.

Allow Yawn, Topsy Turvy, and Heal Bell/Aromatherapy. Disallow Encore/Disable and Flame Charge. Allow Substitute and Pain Split, but only allow one of the two in each movepool.
 
Allow Topsy Turvy, Allow Substitute, Allow Stealth Rock:

Topsy Turvy doesnt hurt and can help us make set up bait from things like Azumarrill. A Topsy-Turvy + BatonPass/U-Turn could give a free SD boost to Lucario or another team member. Substitute doesn't really 'counter' Chansey and Blissey although it could be annoying. Plus pretty much every pokmon that can learn TMs learns Substitute. Stealth Rocks is good for Lucario and can help it sweep, without the need to add an SR setter from outside the core.
 
A lot of these suggestions are well reasoned, and I don't think touching on some of the more obvious moves is necessary. Some I think deserve commenting on:

-Allow Flame Charge+Baton Pass as it gives this CAP more momentum options (it's major weakness right now) and could give the mon a potential role in a BP chain team while not helping it overcome its counters.
-Allow Aqua Ring- another option for BP flipping and can also make Toxic/Sub sets much more viable.
-Allow Heart Swap- a niche move that can surprise bulky setup sweepers like Manaphy. This will help prevent bulky sets from being total setup bait.
-Allow Sunny Day/Rain Dance- this Pokemon seems like a great choice on weather teams, and access to these kinds of moves seems like an obvious and reasonable secondary support role.
-Disallow Topsy Turvy - this is a defensive version of Heart Swap and does not help build offensive pressure. As it is anti-concept I do not think it should be allowed.
-Disallow sleeping moves- they're annoying, they're luck based, and they allow CAP 18 to potentially punch through its counters on some bad sleep rolls. Yawn might be tolerable but Sleep Powder or Spore is too much.
-Disallow Stealth Rock/hazards- these move are practically impossible to punish and goes against the concept of supporting an offensive core. The purpose of Latios/Lucario/CAP 18 should be to deal damage and maintain offensive pressure, not to completely obsolete the defensive/utility uses of the rest of their teammates.
 
Quick Pointers

I disallowed Sunny Day / Rain Dance / TR

Most of the arguments for keeping these moves boiled down to "Its flavor", or "Other Fire types / Water types get them so why not us". Granted, the Pro disallow crowd didn't really help matters by insisting on promoting a set with Specs Sunny Day but regardless, after DLCs post I saw the potential power that this CAP can unleash with Sunny Day / Rain Dance on its movepool, and I just saw no reason to keep that in play, especially when this CAP has a few moveslots to play around with.

I disallowed Flame Charge

Specifically, Flame Charge never really had anything to support keeping it. It was a boosting move which people had already shown in earlier posts that that dislike, it had synergy with Baton Pass + Flame Charge to better assist other sweepers rather than Lucario, and it could run a scary 4 attacks set with Flame Charge. The argument that I saw a few times "Flame Charge doesn't work with Analytic", I decided didn't work out when early game you just act as a nuke, blowing things up with analytic, weakening walls / counters etc, and then mid to late game you click Flame Charge, outspeed most of your counters, and go for the clean sweep. There just...isn't a reason to have it.

On two moves I am still mulling over.

O.k so the Topsy Turvy debate has gone on for a little while and I am slightly torn. It is 100% true that discouraging set up sweepers is good for this CAP, since it is set up sweepers that risk killing the offensive momentum this core has, thus ruining the synergy between Latias / Lucario and CAP 18, which would in turn promote a better core that wouldn't have this problem. On the other hand, Topsy Turvy specifically targets CM Keldeo, and ruins it by reversing its CM gains. In addition to this, its not like we are hard pressed to deal with set up sweepers, when we already have access to Clear Smog, the possibility of Haze, Power Gem for Dragonite / Charizard and the possibility of Perish Song, Roar, Whirlwind and Yawn. There just....doesn't seem a need for it. Like I said, the strong support this move has gotten means that I won't just disallow it, but on the other hand, I want people to be aware of, and think about how necessary this move is, especially if it has a detrimental effect on CM Keldeo more than any other move.

Yawn is again, a move thats good and bad for this CAP. On the one hand, threatening our counters with sleep is pretty much anti concept, and I don't like the idea of using Yawn as Lati@s switches in, and then encouraging it to switch out, so something else can take a hit, which has an adverse effect on the effectiveness that Lati@s might have on countering us. On the other hand, I won't deny that Yawn IS a good way at triggering Analytic just for this CAP.

-Allow Flame Charge+Baton Pass as it gives this CAP more momentum options (it's major weakness right now) and could give the mon a potential role in a BP chain team while not helping it overcome its counters.
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Yea, thats nice but we don't really want this CAP in a BP Chain. The core is Latias, Lucario and CAP 18, so giving this CAP Flame Charge + BP opens up two options. Option #1, this CAP gets used in a full BP chain, which uses Espeon as a win condition, not Lucario and thus Lucario doesn't see use in this 'core".
Option #2, this CAP gets used in a QuickPass BP Chain, in which case I can think of a ton of other pokemon that would appreciate +1 speed and are better choices than Lucario. Result is that Lucario doesn't get used anyway. Claiming Flame Charge is good for BP is not a reason for this CAP to work within the core we want it to be in.

-Allow Aqua Ring- another option for BP flipping and can also make Toxic/Sub sets much more viable.
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Aqua Ring is a terrible move, but I won't disallow it, because its a move that just won't see use,and because I would rather discuss more important things. The healing is minimal, and its really only useful on those BP + Harvest mon teams to constantly stall. I don't see why Lucario needs it.

Allow Heart Swap- a niche move that can surprise bulky setup sweepers like Manaphy. This will help prevent bulky sets from being total setup bait.
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Unless I am mistaken, such a move is banned from this CAP, and I am not inclined to push this through anyway. Heart Swap actually steals boosts, and the last thing I really want is this CAP getting Heart Swap as a method to sneak around the boosting move restriction upon this CAP. Furthermore, it just opens up Heart Swap + BP to something other than Lucario and again, this is just anti concept.

-Disallow Stealth Rock/hazards- these move are practically impossible to punish and goes against the concept of supporting an offensive core. The purpose of Latios/Lucario/CAP 18 should be to deal damage and maintain offensive pressure, not to completely obsolete the defensive/utility uses of the rest of their teammates.
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Not really sure what you mean here, as Stealth Rock is the very definition of supporting an offensive core. It is Stealth Rock that chips away at your opponents switches, punishing them with residual damage so that your sweepers can push for those percentage based 2KOs / OHKOs after SR. Sure, I won't deny that SR works on defensive teams as well, but saying that Stealth Rock not only doesn't help Lati@s and Lucario do damage (the move itself does damage ffs), or maintain offensive pressure (because the move does this as well) is incorrect. Like, I just don't even follow this logic of yours at all sorry.
 
I haven't really been posting a lot this CAP but I've been lurking the discussion threads and here's my .02 on some of the remaining moves up for discussion:

Allow Yawn for the sole purpose of giving us a way to pretty much guarantee an Analytic boost. In addition, it has a bit of an interesting niche over other phazing moves as it allows the CAP a somewhat quick Yawn thanks to our decent speed tier.

Although they all loosely fall under the umbrella of phazing moves, Yawn and Roar/Whirlwind are pretty drastically different in application for this CAP. The "real" phazers have the advantage of beating out sub users (without resorting to Infiltrator) at the cost of getting free Analytic boosts. That being said, I'm leaning towards allowing Roar/Whirlwind for the purpose of beating aforementioned sub boosters.

While Topsy Turvy may seem pretty cool in theory, the problem lies with what it beats. Since the CAP already has access to a myriad of moves to beat physical attackers, it's pretty much targeted at CM users, specifically CM Keldeo and Lati@s. Since these mons are supposed to threaten us, I think it would be the right move to disallow Topsy Turvy.

Substitute has a ton of potential on this cap, as our solid base 100 hp allows the creation of 101 hp subs with max investment. While some could argue that this gives us too much of an edge on the blobs, lack of recovery makes this not the case at all, and the best we could really do is a SubToxic set which would probably be pretty inferior to other sets the CAP could run. Allow Substitute.

Despite its merits (giving us recovery outside of Rest), the CAP's decently high base 100 hp means that, realistically, Pain Split is only really useful against the blobs. Since we probably shouldn't have a ton of options versus aforementioned blobs, Pain split should probably be disallowed.

I'd also like to stress that if we're going to allow Substitute or Pain Split, we should definitely disallow the other. We don't need SubSplit shenanigans invalidating the blobs as counters to us.

Thanks to all the boosting moves being disallowed, it's probably pretty safe to allow Baton Pass. If Substitute gets allowed as well, this opens up the possibility of passing along 101 hp subs to Luke, who appreciates the free setup opportunites that sub provides.

Disallow Swagger since pure evil.
 
I see no reason to truly disallow Topsy Turvy. Keldeo and Lati@s, don't always carry Calm Mind, therefore Topsy Turvy would be a risk to use on a 1 on 1 situation since I highly doubt we're going to send CAP in there to reverse the stat boosts already in play, as that would be riskier still.
Now let's say we predict correctly and use TT after CM and reverse the effects, the way I see it, our opponent has two choices; one is to neutralise the stats by using CM again and then taking a hit from a most likely resisted move, and the other is to switch out and take a hit from analytic fireblast/hydropump. Either way, it means our opponent will refrain from setting up on CAP18 again.
In my opinion, TT 'hurts' our checks as much as haze and clear smog does. Based on this, i see no reason for it to be disallowed, but it's also not accomplishing anything that clear smog/haze doesn't already do.

Ginganinja reinforced my concerns about Yawn, while it does force switches, does it have the potential to force too many and make us less reliant on the other core members?
 
Allow Baton Pass. Now that CAP 18 has no boosting options whatsoever, disallowing Baton Pass is entirely nonsensical. CAP likely won't be used in a full Baton Pass team because there are much better options than it, and the best thing the CAP can do is SubPass, which it is too slow for to do effectively.

Allow Substitute and Disallow Pain Split. Pain Split is specifically targeted at beating Chansey because without max HP, Chansey can break our subs. SubSplit with max HP investment is the perfect case of a set specifically designed to beat our counters because it's an absolutely terrible set outside of that because of our high HP. Substitute, on the other hand, only prolongs Chansey's ability to beat us by itself, and since it is an essential part of most Pokemons' movepools, there is no reason to disallow it, provided we don't allow Pain Split.

Disallow Magic Coat. It doesn't accomplish anything against things that we're supposed to threaten because most of them die to an attack and becomes it a distraction from CAP 18's role in the core. Granted, it doesn't hurt things that are supposed to threaten us that much because Chansey is the only thing that uses status moves and has Natural Cure, but I still think it's best to get rid of odd, unnecessary moves that do absolutely nothing for us.

Disallow Yawn. CAP 18 forces switches well enough with its offensive presence. Potentially putting our checks and counters to sleep is bad, especially since we'll probably be eating an attack before they go to sleep. Like Magic Coat, Yawn is an unnecessary distraction that we don't need.

Disallow Spiky Shield: It's entirely nonsensical because we already have Protect. The chip damage it provides doesn't matter when we OHKO/2HKO pretty much the entire metagame outside of Chansey.

Why is Swagger disallowed? It's banned from OU and completely irrelevant. It's basically a flavor move, and since every TM learning Pokemon gets it, there's no reason to disallow it. There shouldn't even have been any discussion about it imo.
 
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I'm really on the edge about pain split. On one hand, we're going to need recovery to switch into Aegislash multiple times, on the other hand, the only thing that we're gonna use it on are high HP mons that should be countering us. I guess it boils down to that we need low health in order to make use of it, but we'll just get nailed by shadow sneak. Meaning, it does more to stop Chansey than it does to help us with what we want to counter.

Disallow Pain Split
 
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I just wanna say, Haze is practically useless. We get Infiltrator ClearSmog if you really want to be a hazard to BatonPass, and FireSTAB to get rid of the steel types who think they are immune to ClearSmog.

EDIT: Just wanted to mention this since it came to my mind, nothing about disallowing or whatnot.
 
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Being redundant isn't really a reason to disallow something though. Would you want to disallow Flamethrower because we already had Fire Blast, Lava Plume and Heat Wave?
 
ginganinja said:
Yea, thats nice but we don't really want this CAP in a BP Chain.
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This sounds to me like you just don't want this CAP to have any options outside of it's inscribed role in supporting the Latias/Lucario core.

You aren't the only one feeling this way, so lets just get it out of the way- we need to get rid of this romanticized notion that people are ONLY going to use CAP 18 to fit the cut-and-dry model laid out in all the concept threads. Don't be surprised when one day into the playtest you start seeings cores like Keldeo/Latios/CAP 18 or Mega Pinsir/Wash-Rotom/CAP 18 because people like to experiment. Yeah, it's going to happen even if we butcher this Pokemon's moveset to the point where it has no good support moves and only gets one or two viable sets. And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that, because the value of making these Pokemon in the first place is to teach us more about the game from the playtest, even if it doesn't fit within our preconceived notions of what this Pokemon should be doing all along.

We do not need another CAPmon with zero creative potential like Cawmodore where the playtest is a complete waste of time, where we theorycraft everything the Pokemon is capable of before even finishing it and learn absolutely NOTHING that we hadn't already confirmed in our threat lists and damage calculations. That's why giving it off-beat but in no way overpowered moves like Trick Room, Aqua Ring, Baton Pass and Flame Charge is a good thing. If something innocuous like Flame Charge seriously ends up making this Pokemon overpowered, we will have learned more about the metagame and gotten more insight out of this playtest than all the hundreds of battles we could test where it fits exactly to our expectations.

This is also why I am not a fan of Stealth Rock- adding the move is lazy, cliche, and is explicitly overcentralizing enough that it outright discourages creativity. It moves CAP 18 closer from "versatile special attacker and role player" to "generic bulky hazard setter". It's easy to slap on to any set without requiring any team support at all, and encourages the player to stay in on obvious Wash-Rotom/Chansey switchins instead of trying to take the initiative and go to Latios/Lucario the same turn. There's nothing we're going to learn from adding SR other than getting rocks down is almost always a good move, and I'm pretty sure we figured that out two generations ago.

Furthermore, it just opens up Heart Swap + BP to something other than Lucario and again, this is just anti concept.
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We can call anything "anti concept", it's completely unfair to use that in place of an actual argument.

Being able to Baton Pass a stolen boost to a teammate is not only encouraging teamwork and intelligent gameplay, but builds offensive momentum- the whole point of an offensive core. I can see a lot of uses for this move where it might be very useful in getting a sweep going- Heart Swapping a Swords Dance from a Mega Mawile on the predicted Sucker Punch, for instance, then Baton Passing it to Lucario. It's not like we've never done Heart Swap before in CAP- it worked just fine on Krilowatt as an useful niche option, one that
 
It's ludicrous that substitute would be disallowed. If all Pokemon can get it, then it should be a required move. And having 101 subs does not change that fact that CAP cannot be the blobs short of PP stalling. Allow Substitute.
 
We can call anything "anti concept", it's completely unfair to use that in place of an actual argument.
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If you actually took the time to read my post you would have seen the fact that the real argument against Heart Swap was that it is a legendary exclusive move, thus disallowed from all CAPs.

This sounds to me like you just don't want this CAP to have any options outside of it's inscribed role in supporting the Latias/Lucario core.
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Bingo

You aren't the only one feeling this way, so lets just get it out of the way- we need to get rid of this romanticized notion that people are ONLY going to use CAP 18 to fit the cut-and-dry model laid out in all the concept threads. Don't be surprised when one day into the playtest you start seeings cores like Keldeo/Latios/CAP 18 or Mega Pinsir/Wash-Rotom/CAP 18 because people like to experiment.
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Thats fine, I don't mind / care if people want to run it in a different core, and heck, I believe that with the strengths this CAP already has, it very likely won't be used with Lucario, but thats not the point. The concept stated, in black and white that we wanted this CAP to work within a 3 mon core. DLC, our TL, picked out the other two members of said core, and as such, since then everything about this CAP has been discussed in the mindset of how it would function within the core of CAP 18 / Latias / Lucario. The moment you start opening up BP options, you are actively encouraging the use of this CAP outside of this core, and that is an issue. I don't care if come playtest people don't want to use this CAP within the core we set out for it to work with, but as a movepool leader, I sure as hell don't intend to encourage moves that support its use outside the core, nor do I intend to make it easier for people to ignore the core we set out to create this CAP for. If we give this CAP a bunch of moves that support BP teams, so much so that it becomes a BP staple, then I would consider this CAP a failure as per our concept.
 
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The point of a core is for it to be fairly self-sufficient; taking on a significant amount of Pokemon so that the other Pokemon can take on the remaining few fairly easily.

Just wanted to preface this post with that tidbit as it is an integral statement when deciding which moves are strictly anti-concept or pro-concept.

Yawn: This move should probably be disallowed. Since the very beginning we have decided that this CAP should not be the main win condition during the match and this move puts so much pressure on the opponent that it will easily be able to take on teams with little support to itself. Yawn puts a ton of offensive pressure on the opponent, something that we should obviously do, however I feel that Yawn + Analytic + Our high SpA + our high powered moves will simply put to much pressure on the opponent less they have multiple CAP checks which are able to switch in (i.e. Latios will not work reliably). The fact that CAP can do this extremely effectively as well as extremely often means that the opponent will have to deal with CAP throughout much of the match less they have one of the blobs (since they are one of the few who can switch in many times throughout the match because Latias hasn't been running recovery lately and Pain Split Rotom-W is fairly unreliable). Yawn helps with keeping set-up sweepers at bay but I believe that our access to Clear Smog as well as the next sections is more than sufficient at discouraging set-up sweepers.

Topsy-Turvy: This move is the ultimate anti set-up tool. However, like Heart Swap, it has a few glaring flaws. The first is that, without Prankster, we are forced to either hope our opp is dumb and will continue to boost as we use Topsy-Turvy to pull it off, or we will be forced to take a hefty chunk from the Opponent in order to Topsy-Turvy them. Personally, I don't see the over-powering nature of this move besides basically countering slow, bulky set-up sweepers (which I guess can be significant but there aren't that many of those in OU at the moment. At its core, yes Topsy-Turvy and Heart Swap achieve the exact same thing and Heart Swap would be better due to our offensive momentum... holding... nature... you know what I mean, Heart Swap is not allowed leaving Topsy-Turvy as our other alternative. Of course, this move does not completely stop sweepers from setting up on us, however it does prevent them from getting up higher than +1 before they kill us which is much easier to manage than, for example, a +2 Dragonite compared to one at +1.

Stealth Rock: This is mostly where my preface comes in. In order for this core to perform at its peak, it needs hazards as many of Lucario's OHKO's are out of reach by simple SR damage. I don't really see how SR being an "easy" move prevents it from being the "right" move at all times. I don't think we should take in consideration player skill when we determine whether or not a move should be allowed or not. To use your example, if we know that Chansey is coming in, we obviously have the option to either Double in Lucario and set up, or we can set-up SR. I don't see how this is a lazy move as either way has its consequences. If we SR as Chansey or Latias comes in, we are forced out and they get a free turn (most likely to simply Defog in Latias's case) to do whatever they want, whereas if we want to make a play, obviously we use the Lucario example, this also comes at a risk of having our Main win condition to be even more weakened by Seismic Toss or some other move.

In closing, Disallow Yawn, allow SR and Topsy-Turvy
 
O.k, this has gone on long enough. I am issuing a 48 hour notice until I close this thread.

The moves under the "Needs Discussion" heading are the current moves I want last minute advice on before I lose this thread. If people want to make their case for these moves, then they are welcome to, otherwise I will be making my decision based upon what current information I have in the thread, and on IRC. For those of you that don't want to check the OP then here is the list.

Aromatherapy, Heal Bell, Refresh
Yawn
Perish Song
Roar / Whirlwind

Lets finish this up.
 
Perish Song

Why not? That can change momentum to be on our side. Perish Songing stray Azu's or Mawile's discourages then from setting up. We can't trap them either, so it is not a guaranteed kill.

As for Lati@s, Keldeo, etc, we can't beat those through conventional means. We can only get those on the switch, never in a 1v1 situation. Then, if we switch out to our own Latias, they will be discouraged from CM'ing/whatever, and that is a win in momentum for our core, not CAP. Allow Perish Song.
 
Allow PerishSong, Whirlwind or Roar: Pick one, or maybe 2 in the case of Perish Song. They all are to prevent set-up sweepers or scare them out. PerishSong could be used in tandem with something like U-Turn to give Lucario a free set-up on Swords Dance possibly.

I am kinda split about allowing HealBell/Aromatherapy and Refresh. I mean Refresh would be nice, but could allow us to beat the Blobs. Aromatherapy has lower PP however so it could easily be used, while HealBell I believe has 8 more PP. I would say Allow Aromatherapy, Disallow HealBell. Not sure about Refresh. The reasoning is because if say Lucario gets burned or Latias gets Toxic'd or we are facing SubToxic Aegislash, then Aromatherapy can be used, but the Blobs still beat us because Toxic has 16 PP vs Aromatherapy's 8. Refresh I am kinda split about, because it doesnt help the team, but it can outstall Toxic if predicted correctly.
 
Topsy-Turvy is wholly unnecessary when CAP18 Clear Smog to target stat-boosters. Not only does Clear Smog give us a decently-powered hit on Clefable and Azumarill (if CAP18 running enough bulk to take the Aqua Jet), it also doesn't let CAP18 defeat Keldeo and Calm Mind Latios and Latias. Since some of our counters as well as some of the Pokemon we want to counter use boosting moves, we shouldn't punish boosting opponents too hard. Furthermore, Lucario isn't going to really be able to set up on -1 threats because it doesn't have the bulk to do so.

I'd like to talk a little more about Substitute; I've read some posts and discussed it with some others on IRC and I no longer believe it is as anti-concept as I once did. Substitute, as long as CAP18 is not also packing Pain Split, isn't just as pro-concept as it is anti-concept. Although Substitute allows for CAP18 to run a mean SubToxic set that can annoy Latios, Latias, and Keldeo, Substitute also allows for Substitute passing. CAP18 has the potential to make 101 HP Substitutes, which can be Baton Passed to Lucario if Chansey switches in. This would allow CAP18 to still lose to Chansey, but give Lucario a guaranteed setup opportunity. Even if CAP18 doesn't use 101 HP Substitutes, as it nearly certainly won't, Substitute+Baton Pass is still a fantastic way to let Lucario come in from free. As long as we properly lure in Pokemon Lucario can set up on, Sub+BP becomes a nice option to bring Lucario in for free. The same can be said for Latias, but Latias doesn't have much of a problem finding switch-in opportunities throughout the match. Compared to that, the concept problem of a SubToxic set isn't all that bad. CAP18 won't be that great a SubToxic user without recovery or a great defensive typing. I'm fine with allowing Substitute, but still not in tandem with Pain Split.

EDIT: This was mostly written before ginga posted his new list, I'll make sure to comment on the moves he posted shortly.
 
On the matter of Refresh:
How many pokemon are capable of using refresh? A lot
How many Pokemon actually viably use it on a moveset? Absolutely none. Most teams just use a cleric to get rid of status.
Since it really doesn't make a difference, I think we should Allow Refresh.
Not sure about Aromatherapy and Heal Bell. I'm leaning more to disallowing both, however my argument is mainly from a flavour point of view so I will refrain from posting it.
 
As long as a lot of the pokemons CAP has to threaten can cipple us with annoying status with Toxic/Thunder Wave, and that Lucario also appreciate the support of a cleric to get rid of such status (mainly a burn, but a paralysis is also very painful), I think we should Allow Aromatherapy/Heal Bell/Refresh. Moreover, one can think it allows us to get through the blobs but we don't even have some really good recovering moves, so it doesn't stand a chance. I'm not sure about Heal Bell, may be we shouldn't have too much PP (and that's also against flavor but who cares).

I can say why we should Allow Substitute, but I will only repeat all the arguments supported before, I agree with the fact that it doesn't allow us to beat Chansey/Blissey, and this could be the only reason why one wants to ban it.
I don't even know why Heart Swap needs discussion, aren't legendary signature forbidden ?
About Yawn and Roar/Whirlwing : I don't see in which way Roar/Whirlwind could be a plus for this core, given that set up threats can be taken care of with Clear Smog which gets through subs, and steel-types are really threatened by fire blast. That's why we should Disallow Roar/Whirlwind. But Yawn keeps some great utility, giving even more power to the CAP ability Analytic. The question is : does it make our CAP overpower ? I first didn't think so, but the fact that the opponent should have to run at least two checks/counters to our CAP in order to not being destroyed by our ability made me think twice, so now I feel that we should Disallow Yawn.

Finally, I understand why Stealth Rock has been allowed, as it grants a really helpful support to Lucario and its Late game sweep. However, I'm stil against allowing it, I think it's a move that encourage the CAP to work outside of this core (and ginganija definitively said this is not the aim of this project), because it can become a really fast bulky setter with strong special abilities, which is only provided by Heatran in the actual metagame, and Heatran doesn't have so much speed. I don't know if it's a viable argument, but that's the main reason why I think we should Disallow Stealth Rock
 
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Disallow Aromatherapy/Heal Bell, Allow Refresh, even though team-wide status healing benefits our core, and is something it lacks, if the core is played well then it'd be a seldom occurrence when we find Lucario burnt since CAP18 can't be affected by Will-o-Wisps and additional affects causing burn. I don't think it would be beneficial to create an offensive utility pokemon, it may find itself providing greater benefits to another core. Furthermore, the opportunity it would have to get one of these moves off is very high, while the opponent switches to a wall/counter.
Refresh on the other hand is largely useless, effecting only the user.

Disallow Yawn, while i was an original advocate of the move. After a lot of thought, I still believe it's a great move for CAP18 as an individual pokemon. However, in terms of the concept Yawn could cause far too many switches and lessen the impact of the usage of the other core members.

Disallow Perish Song, like Yawn, this is a great move for CAP18 as an individual in terms of causing switches for the analytic boost. But of course CAP itself has to switch out at some point, and the opponent knows this allowing him/her to predict who's going to come in whether it's Lucario or Latias. 18 is designed to patch up their mutual weaknesses, so let's say he uses this opportunity to send in Aegislash or Mawile for example. They can begin setting up or dealing out damage. In my opinion, this attribute to Perish Song is enough to warrant it ineffective and dangerous for the core.

Disallow Whirlwind/Roar, CAP18 forces enough switches as it is, if it can get rocks up, phazing is too much of a dangerous combination. If, for example, it drags Aegislash out, there's no way in hell it's staying in, switching to whatever's going to eat an analytic boosted Fire Blast. With the combination of rocks, phazing and the opponent trying to 'safely' switch, then it may well just offensively phaze until it gets KO'd.
 
Okay, this may be a long shot, but I think Perish Song may actually be useful for getting Lucario in safely without any damage. Imagine a scenario where a CAP counter switches in and the CAP uses Perish Song. Obviouly, the counter will stay in and attack, since it will fear the threat of a powerful Analytic boosted move on the switch-in. Therefore, it will only switch in on the very last turn. This will end up in a double switch which will be able to get a frail sweeper, like Lucario, in without any prior damage. Obviously, this assumes that the CAP can survive 2 hits from the opponents answer to it, which is unlikely, but it's definitely a possibility.

Yawn can potentially do the same thing, but the switch can also be abused by our CAP, so may actually be too good. But Perish Song gives more specific support to Lucario, so would be preferable to Yawn, in my optinion.

I think whether or not we want to allow Yawn boils down to whether we want our CAP to abuse switches or just punish them. Yawn may be taking advantage of Analytic a little too much.
 
Allow Aromatherapy and Heal Bell as they provide support for the core without having to resort to Latias taking on that role. Burns shut down Lucario 9 times out of 10 and whenever it doesn't, it just kills Lucario with residual damage combined with Life Orb. Latias can heal off the residual damage from Toxic at the expense of momentum, but not forever. Paralysis is also a major issue for both Pokemon, especially the spread we chose for Latias; she sits on a crucial speed tier rivaled by few, but the moment she is Paralyzed, she drops down to being too slow to outpace all but the slowest of opponents. Using this move on a free turn would actually hurt 18 and its concept because of the missed opportunity for an Analytic boost on a switch in, but it would help the core overall. Isn't that what we are trying to do? If something is decidedly positive for the core without intruding upon any of our counters, is it really so bad that it isn't part of the CAP's original plan of "nuke and burn everything in sight?" The only counter that this really affects much at all is Chansey. Even then, Chansey can safely 5HKO us while we can just possibly 5HKO with our highest powered (and low accuracy) moves in return, but even then Chansey can easily heal off two and a half turns of damage with Soft Boiled. The same holds true for Blissey. This means that adding Aromatherapy/Heal Bell will not make them any less of counters than they already are to us.
 
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