CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 5 - Secondary Flavor Ability Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Although it's kind of a troll ability, I'd also support Damp besides my own suggestion of Telepathy. I think for me, it's less about the plant property of being damp, but more about the mood I get from looking at the picture. It's rather sullen and reminds me of rainy days.

If there was a caption contest, she could be saying: "Don't you explode on me now, you dummy...you big dummy..."

(and NO...I'm not getting *damp* in my pants by looking at it...)
 
I like Own Tempo and Liquid Ooze. Own Tempo because she looks like a graceful dancer who would ignore any sort of commotion to focus on her dancing. Liquid Ooze I like because she looks like a giant freaking poisonous plant. To me that screams, "I ooze out poisonous liquids!"
 

jas61292

used substitute
is a Community Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I do not think it is sensible to lay claim that a secondary flavor ability will 'ruin the CAP' or 'distract from the concept' as neither is true in any way. These are flavor abilities, and thus have negligible competitive impact and will not change anything one way or the other. The choice between Forewarn and Ability #2 will not be a valuable piece of information for your opponent nor will it be a meaningful choice you make as a player. If any of the above is why you want No Secondary Ability, I want you to seriously reconsider your position! NSA is a fine choice, but you should make sure it's what you want for flavor reasons.
I have to say that I slightly disagree with this. While it is true that these abilities will all have negligible effects, unless we choose one that literally does nothing, it will have some effect, no matter how small. Is this a bad thing? Probably not. Will it detract from the concept? Not very much if at all. But no matter how miniscule a chance of it doing anything, that chance still exists, and, while I personally don't see a problem with a second ability, if we don't have excellent reasoning behind it, we would be better off just sticking with nothing at all. Basically what I am saying is, that while the chance of a second flavor ability effecting the playtest are slim, it is existent, and if we have no good reason to give it one, doing so would be foolish.

That being said, I have no problem with abilities like Anticipation or Telepathy (though I like the former better for flavor purposes), but most other things I really feel we would be best without. Overall however, I still think no ability is the way to go. Why mess with it when it is already looking good?
 
I like Anticipation and Forewarn, but not both flavor abilties on the same pokemon. I really think that Liquid Ooze would be nice and would fit somewhat with the venus fly trap aspect of the pokemon (they secrete digestive fluid). No real reason outside of asthetics, but it is just a flavor ability.
 
I support Telepathy the most since seems to represent CAP 2 the most. I also like Own Tempo, it adds more personality to CAP 2.
 
Anticipation is the way to go, as it finishes off the lore nicely and does almost the exact same thing that Forewarn does.

However, the only alternative is No Ability due to the fact that a secondary ability that does something different than Forewarn might be too distracting from the actual concept of the pokemon.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
I find the arguments against a secondary ability pretty foolish. It would hardly ruin the CAP.

Look at Slowbro. It has Own Tempo, Oblivious, and Regenerator. Tell me which one of those is not a flavor ability?

I'm personally leaning against Anticipation heavily because it's just too dang close to Forewarn. It's like buying Breyer's vanilla and then Edy's vanilla. Come on, let's do something different this time.
 
I also support Telepathy it makes sense, conceptually, and is an interesting ability.

No Secondary Ability just seems a little pointless in my opinion, when there are other more interesting options...
 
I feel Unnerve got passed up last time, people going for Forewarn for flavour reasons, but unnerve fits flavourwise and is at least somewhat usefull in certain situations.

The sheer fact that it´s dead plant makes it okay in the flavourdepartment, look at Tyranitar, even Tyrani gets Unnerve.

It´s usefull because of the Outrage/Lum Berry combo, the odd Chople Berry Tyranitar and anyone who still uses ChastyResting. It's very situational and not super usefull, but it adds at least some funstionality to the ability, as opposed to Forewarn, which usually only kicks in open doors, warning us Mienshao has HiJump Kick or Dragonite has Outrage and Latios Draco Meteor. Maybe it's usefull deducting some sets, but 9/10 times it's not usefull.
 
I'm a bit skeptical on Own Tempo as that would allow for nothing bad to happen after Outrage, Thrash or Petal Dance. I would really like a quiver dance, petal dance sweep without confusion but this ability is supposed to be less competitive than Forewarn.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I like Unnerve the best from a flavor perspective, and Forewarn just makes it more awesome. I don't think they're contradictory at all, both of them together give the impression of a vindictive spirit who spreads around false prophecies to terrify anything she comes into contact with.

Sidenote: The Cassandra's in FFTA2 were a species of Malboro (a plant-based status-spreading menace that in other games was often featured in dungeons with undead. Sometimes Bad Breath even gave the Zombie status!). Cassandra was a prophet who could see into the future accurately, but her visions were so dire that no one believed them until it was too late. Forewarn/Unnerve would be an almost perfect union of this concept flavorwise.
 
I think we should seriously consider what the differences, flavourwise, between Anticipation and Forewarn actually are...

Like, I always saw Anticipation as a kind of animalistic, instinctive ability; the same sense of dread that sends domestic dogs scarpering before earthquakes in the real world (just checked the Japanese name... 'Danger Premonition'). The shuddering that accompanies the premonition, for example, is a very kinetic, bestial response, much less measured and human than the line of actual text that Forewarn gives us. I think this idea is mostly supported by the pokemon that get the ability, as they're all inspired by certain animals, and generally have more earthly, animal typings, such as Ground, Poison, Bug and Normal.

Meanwhile, Forewarn (Japanese: Prophetic Dream) is an ability that seems more inspired by clairvoyance. Clairvoyance and Prophecy are far more human processes than anticipation; a measured and often pseudo-scientific approach to the prediction of the future, shown through the elegant, human process of dreaming, or the informed reading of signs (e.g. looking at the stars, tarot, etc.). It seems like while Anticipation is an ability for the animals, Forewarn is one for the people. And just look at the list of pokemon that get it! 4 of 6 are humanoid (the two fully evolved pokemon here, Hypno and Jynx, wield a prop and wear a dress, respectively) whilst the other two are the perpetually sleeping, perpetually prophetically dreaming, Munna and Musharna (hardly the vital, alert, shuddering animals characterised by Anticipation!). There's also the issue that every current Forewarner is a Psychic pokemon, and every current Anticipator is not; Forewarn is clearly an ability for the magicians, mind-readers and summoners, and now, potentially, the channelers, of the pokemon world.

Basically, I'm just saying that I dislike Anticipation. Anticipation -> Forewarn doesn't even feel like a natural evolution to me, considering how they seem like opposite ends of a spectrum, rather than different levels on a meter; our shrine maiden animalistically shudders with premonition usually, but somehow gains the eerie psychic power of prophecy through dreamworld? Perhaps it works for you, I dunno, but I don't see it. Forewarn isn't even its DW ability, it's its primary ability...

There's also the issue that no pokemon gets both Forewarn and Anticipation, and although that's obviously true of many ability combinations, wouldn't you expect it if the two abilities were as similar as you might believe? Our channeling, humanshape shrine maiden, with no animal features whatsoever - now that we've given her the human, evolved ability of Forewarn, do we really think it suits her flavourwise to give her Anticipation as well?

I am still supporting Telepathy primarily, as I think it's the main NCA that can support the idea that we have some level of psychic power, which I don't think comes across as well if we give it Forewarn alone. As for Own Tempo, I will say that the dancing argument seems to have come out of left field a bit. Whilst ancient Japanese channeling rituals do involve a fair amount of what I guess one could call 'dancing' (I would personally say 'spastic movement'), the design seems (to me) quite serene and stationary, and doesn't even have actual feet (which are pretty important for dancing, y'know). If Yilx, our main flavour authority (i mean, it is his design, and only he can inform us of its inspirations) comes into this thread supporting Own Tempo, though, then I might support it too.

PS sorry for long post, I take everything too seriously apparently

EDIT: Ehhh I'm actually okay with Own Tempo after all. I should have researched it better, but the design has always seemed to evoke this more than this in me for some reason. The slow, graceful movements of the second video certainly feel more in line with Own Tempo.
 
I feel Unnerve got passed up last time, people going for Forewarn for flavour reasons, but unnerve fits flavourwise and is at least somewhat usefull in certain situations.

The sheer fact that it´s dead plant makes it okay in the flavourdepartment, look at Tyranitar, even Tyrani gets Unnerve.

It´s usefull because of the Outrage/Lum Berry combo, the odd Chople Berry Tyranitar and anyone who still uses ChastyResting. It's very situational and not super usefull, but it adds at least some funstionality to the ability, as opposed to Forewarn, which usually only kicks in open doors, warning us Mienshao has HiJump Kick or Dragonite has Outrage and Latios Draco Meteor. Maybe it's usefull deducting some sets, but 9/10 times it's not usefull.
This is exactly what we want to avoid! The point of choosing No Competitive Ability is that the ability we choose be completely based on flavor. The competitive effects of an ability has no impact, apart from needing to not be too powerful.
 
From seeing the discussion already laid down in this thread, I would put my support behind Telepathy and No Competitive Ability; there are some abilities being discussed here which I am not entirely sold on yet.

For one, I don't really see how Own Tempo is considered negligibly competitive. Immunity from confusion, however insignificant some might consider confusion to be, is still an extra immunity, and there are a few Pokemon who use confusion as a strategy beyond Machamp. While not exactly the most potent or popular moveset to consider, parafusion still has competitive viability to it; with Own Tempo nullifying confusion, stall sets on Sketchmon (which don't mind the speed loss from paralysis, or possibly might have Substitute) turn users of this stretegy on a team into dead weight (unless they have access to super-effective moves against Sketchmon).
Another problem I have with a confusion immunity is Petal Dance and Outrage. Even if we don't give Sketchmon Petal Dance as a naturally learned move, Petal Dance would become the STAB move of choice; decent PP, 100% accurate, 120 base power, and it lasts for 2-3 turns before having to use another Power Point. Even if you consider the fact the Petal Dance is considered a Special move, having such a powerful STAB move with no drawbacks attached would certainly influence the way which Sketchmon would be played. Outrage and Thrash are in the same vein as this, only as Physical and non-STAB variants.
Isn't this ability supposed to be negligibly competitive? Shouldn't the current ability be as equally viable as the second one? Having Own Tempo avaliable would make Forewarn laughable in comparison; it would be the ability to run with Sketchmon.

Spork, along with other members in this thread, have really turned me off to Anticipation. While indeed negigible, it really seems redundant, and in terms of flavour has been disproven (at least to me) by Spork's argument. Although Damp would be kind of funny, as Sketchmon is already immune to Explosion and Self-Destruct, I don't think the CAP project would like to be credited with a Pokemon-ability match-up such as this one.

I won't go on the rant about Liquid Ooze like I did with Own Tempo, but I just would like to point out that this ability, like Own Tempo, is just barely competitive enough to be always chosen over Forewarn; additionally, giving this ability to Sketchmon gives her the capability of using most SubSeeders as set-up bait.
(EDIT - Also, just another note, Leech Seed only goes away when the Pokemon which has been Seeded switches out. Think about this for a moment. With a Liquid Ooze Sketchmon switching into Leech Seed, you have not only given a potential sweeper a safe switch in, you have also given it a means to underscore your Leftovers regeneration; if, that is, the Pokemon switching in to counter Sketchmon even has Leftovers.)
 
Anticipation was always redundant with Forewarn (which meant nothing much got accomplished by picking it), but now with Spork's argument I feel like there is a strong case against it. Telepathy falls in the same vein of redundancy as Anticipation, and I think that isn't the best thing to do as we could instead take this in a direction that develops another aspect of Sketchmon.

With that said, I support Unnerve, Own Tempo, and Moody. Why?

Unnerve captures the physical description of Sketchmon without being too obvious. In my opinion, her design is more subtle and so it shouldn't have in-your-face descriptors such as Liquid Ooze or Damp applied to it. Instead, Unnerve shows the intimidating aspect of her (and being an undead Venus flytrap, this is pretty appropriate).

I disagree with Spork about Own Tempo in that I don't think the ability implies 'spastic movement', as he puts it. Waltzes and such still have tempo, and definitely have the calm feel that her design emanates. Own Tempo is also competitively negligible for reasons stated before; beating one half of Parafusion is not really something that will make it significant in the vast majority of battles. One minor point I dislike about Own Tempo is that there is a predecessor in Lilligant and so it could be called uncreative, but it's not a big issue as they are different enough.

Moody is a much better choice than No Competitive Ability because since it's banned, there's no conflict between which ability people will choose when using Sketchmon (and thus no unwanted focus on the flavour abilities) while also adding to her personality. Really, there's no reason to pick NCA with this since NCA doesn't add anything to her while Moody does.

I also like Sticky Hold, but that could have some competitive value for defensive stat-upping.
EDIT: Since this is on Rising Dusk's okay'd list of abilities, it's probably fine. Temperantia states the reason well.
 
jas61292 said:
I have to say that I slightly disagree with this. While it is true that these abilities will all have negligible effects, unless we choose one that literally does nothing, it will have some effect, no matter how small. Is this a bad thing? Probably not. Will it detract from the concept? Not very much if at all. But no matter how miniscule a chance of it doing anything, that chance still exists, and, while I personally don't see a problem with a second ability, if we don't have excellent reasoning behind it, we would be better off just sticking with nothing at all. Basically what I am saying is, that while the chance of a second flavor ability effecting the playtest are slim, it is existent, and if we have no good reason to give it one, doing so would be foolish.

That being said, I have no problem with abilities like Anticipation or Telepathy (though I like the former better for flavor purposes), but most other things I really feel we would be best without. Overall however, I still think no ability is the way to go. Why mess with it when it is already looking good?
I don't want to turn this into an existential debate about the nature of flavor abilities, but as TL I am compelled to respond to this and everyone else that is somehow worried about these negligibly competitive abilities negatively affecting CAP 2. I'd prefer if you accepted what I'm saying and simply move on rather than respond to it; I might just delete further posts about it after mine here.

All of the abilities that I have deemed negligibly competitive are negligibly competitive enough such that we shouldn't be worrying about anything at all. I think the most competitively valuable ability on the list is Unnerve, and even that is arguably negligible considering what it would be useful against. (regardless, I really don't like Unnerve for flavor alongside Forewarn) Arguments like "Own Tempo might be competitive!" or the like are ludicrous!

Let's talk about Own Tempo as an example. What Pokemon in OU has a listed set that involves confusion? That's right, not a single one. Not even the DPP OU king of confusion, Machamp, could rise up from UU to confuse CAP 2, as CAP 2 is Ghost-type. Any argument that anyone makes for confusion being a viable strategy against CAP 2 or for confusion being even remotely popular is false. Own Tempo is negligibly competitive for CAP 2, believe in me, and rightly so. Do not look at it as "It's ANOTHER IMMUNITY!!" because it's an immunity that doesn't matter to anything in OU. I could go on like this for any ability on the list I've provided in the OP. Some of the abilities have vague uses in very specific and rare circumstances, but they are so minor that no one should really worry about them. It doesn't matter if anyone picks Ability 2 over Forewarn or vice versa, because neither will have any actual affect on 99.9% of battles.

I'd really like you guys to focus on the flavor here and not worry so much about what competitive ramifications the abilities will have. I've done all that worrying for you, and after intense deliberation for each ability on the list, decided that for CAP 2 those that made the list would not change CAP 2 in any meaningful way.
 

Arcticblast

faking tasks in O2
is a Forum Moderatoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Moderator
I'm really liking Telepathy for reasons already stated (goes along with Forewarn) but No Secondary Ability also sounds good.
 
I support the idea of Telepathy for doubles/triples or Anticipation for providing little to no discernible difference from the first ability.

On Asylum's post from the first page pointing out the flaws in abilities requiring name changes: I feel that Sticky Hold fits conceptually well with Sketchy's flavor in that she would be unlikely to want to give up an item. The name itself may not be right, but the idea of the ability does. So I still support Sticky Hold.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I don't think my last post was quite persuasive enough, so I'd like to flesh out the Cassandra/Forewarn/Unnerve connection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra_(metaphor)

Basically the prime thing about a Cassandra is that she has the gift of prophecy, but no one believes her. Ghosts in Pokemon are often considered tricksters, and much like people run from Absol because it tries to warn people of disaster (but is feared because of proximity to said disaster), the same thing holds true for CAP 2. Thus when a trainer hears her prophecies they are unnerved, but don't actually believe her.

This leaves the plant portion out a bit, but again, that's why I referenced Final Fantasy's Cassandra's being variants of a Malboro, a plantlike creature that inflicts several nasty statuses. All in all it fits the theme wonderfully, and doesn't seem either overly complicated or too focused on competitive aspects. Stopping Lum mons and ChestoResters is fine, but one of those ChestoResters is Bulky Volcarona, and CAP2 has no business coming in on that.
 
Infiltrator and Sticky Hold are abilities that would perfectly match the flavor requirements of this CAP. Previously I argued that Unnerve seemed perfect, and flavor wise it is, I've come to realize all the Pokemon it could shut down that rely on Lum Berries to prevent status, such as burn from Sacred Fire or WoW, para from Thunder Wave or Sleep from Spore. Nonetheless both Infiltrator and Sticky Hold match well with the Ghost/Grass typing respectively. Being a specter it makes sense to see this Pokemon be able to slip through obstacles or in this case the defenses of the enemy. While it may seem to overpowered, DoubleScreens aren't much of a key strategy as much as they used to be in the OU(at least from my experiences in the OU). Finally Sticky Hold works with the grass typing in a sense that possibly this Pokemon can create sticky sap and coat her arms with it as to prevent the loss of any item or flavor-wise, a victim.
 
Rising Dusk said:
Let's talk about Own Tempo as an example. What Pokemon in OU has a listed set that involves confusion? That's right, not a single one. Not even the DPP OU king of confusion, Machamp, could rise up from UU to confuse CAP 2, as CAP 2 is Ghost-type. Any argument that anyone makes for confusion being a viable strategy against CAP 2 or for confusion being even remotely popular is false. Own Tempo is negligibly competitive for CAP 2, believe in me, and rightly so. Do not look at it as "It's ANOTHER IMMUNITY!!" because it's an immunity that doesn't matter to anything in OU.
itll really depend on the moveset besides sketch but if by chance, it gets petal dance (which it should, it just looks like it should have it), then own tempo no longer becomes negligibly competitive because it has a huge beneficial use on a shell smash or tail glow/petal dance set (120 bp/100 acc/no self induced confusion)

you need to consider these aspects as well...
 

Yilx

Sad
is a Top Artist Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
I have to say the abilities I'm in favor right now are Unnerve, Own Tempo, Sticky Hold and Telepathy right now.

Unnerve has been discussed before and might be a little contrversial, but I think Deck Knight's posts explains it quite well. I was aiming for a creepy-cute demeanor with her and unnerve basically amplifes it.

Own Tempo and Sticky Hold have their own niche and respect parts of her design too; namely the ritualistic and posessive personalities that she has.

Telepathy is self-explainatory and goes along well with Forewarn.

Personally, I'd like to see Unnerve or Sticky Hold make it through.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top