-
The moderators of this forum can be found in the CAP forum staff directory.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 5 - Tertiary Flavor Ability Discussion
- Thread starter Rising_Dusk
- Start date
- Status
I know most voters don't even read these things but
<sporkle> well tbf i didnt understand what the joke was anyway :P
<sporkle> can't wait for the quaternary ability poll though
Beat me to everything, why don't you...
If anything that's exactly why there should be an ability to counterbalance two psychic-centric abilities. I mentioned the ritual dance thing before, and Spork even linked videos, so there's not much more to say. At the very least, I think Own Tempo fits more than Telepathy, considering Telepathy's actual function (avoid friendly fire). We rejected this thing having one ability, so I might as well gun for three.
<sporkle> well tbf i didnt understand what the joke was anyway :P
<sporkle> can't wait for the quaternary ability poll though
Beat me to everything, why don't you...
I think this is a very unfortunate mischaracterization and I think that you could have said the same thing about Revenankh (similar to Dusknoir). It's already physically based and it has Sketch...
I'm mostly in agreement with Spork.
No Tertiary Ability would not be bad since competitively none of these abilities make a difference, but right now we have 2 relatively similar, psychic/clairvoyant abilities, and I think we are defining the flavor of CAP2 too narrowly in doing so (especially when we have the opportunity to do otherwise).
I don't see an inherent problem with having 3 abilities, and Own Tempo would expound on the graceful shrine maiden aspects of Yilx's design. I think the argument that Own Tempo does not qualify as a flavor ability holds no water.
No Tertiary Ability would not be bad since competitively none of these abilities make a difference, but right now we have 2 relatively similar, psychic/clairvoyant abilities, and I think we are defining the flavor of CAP2 too narrowly in doing so (especially when we have the opportunity to do otherwise).
I don't see an inherent problem with having 3 abilities, and Own Tempo would expound on the graceful shrine maiden aspects of Yilx's design. I think the argument that Own Tempo does not qualify as a flavor ability holds no water.
No Tertiary Ability. I agree flavor won't ruin this pokemon but I do find it unnecessary to overally emphasize the fact that she won't be caring competitive abilities. I would've chosen a tertiary ability if at least one of the abilities was slightly competitive or if Unnerve was an option but I can already predict this will not be the case. I see Forwarn and Telepathy perfectly suitable for this CAP and as such a third ability would just be redundant.
Own Tempo. Spork and greg have both stated it well; Telepathy and Forewarn correspond to the same aspect of CAP 2, so atm it's not really drowning in flavour. We have the chance to flesh her out in a different direction, so I see no reason why we shouldn't do that.
PS: CAP 2 =/= Lilligant
EDIT: I'll elaborate a bit more. I would have been okay with No Secondary Ability in the second poll, since that would be the simplest solution: one flavour ability, done. Any more wouldn't really be necessary since it's just a flavour ability, right? No need to force people to choose between two useless abilities. After the second poll chose Telepathy, though, I just feel like it's forcing the idea that the psychic side of CAP 2 is the only part of it that exists. It completely ignores the other quirks of the design (in Own Tempo's case, the shrine maiden part). What makes it worse is that Telepathy and Forewarn are really not that unique in that they can be applied to almost all Psychic-type pokemon.
That reasoning is why I feel that CAP 2 should have Own Tempo; it emphasizes the more down-to-earth aspects of the design and makes it clear that clairvoyance isn't the only thing it can do. The PokeDex entries and such can add to that, but there's only so much you can fit in there.
PS: CAP 2 =/= Lilligant
EDIT: I'll elaborate a bit more. I would have been okay with No Secondary Ability in the second poll, since that would be the simplest solution: one flavour ability, done. Any more wouldn't really be necessary since it's just a flavour ability, right? No need to force people to choose between two useless abilities. After the second poll chose Telepathy, though, I just feel like it's forcing the idea that the psychic side of CAP 2 is the only part of it that exists. It completely ignores the other quirks of the design (in Own Tempo's case, the shrine maiden part). What makes it worse is that Telepathy and Forewarn are really not that unique in that they can be applied to almost all Psychic-type pokemon.
That reasoning is why I feel that CAP 2 should have Own Tempo; it emphasizes the more down-to-earth aspects of the design and makes it clear that clairvoyance isn't the only thing it can do. The PokeDex entries and such can add to that, but there's only so much you can fit in there.
If you do not provide reasoning in your post, you will be infracted. This is not a poll. Consider this your last warning.
I don't even care about "clogging" the Pokemon. We just don't have to give it one. I think CAP2's flavor is pretty sufficiently explained by having it only female and with the two flavor abilities it has (kind of a precognition Pokemon of sorts, maybe Future Sight in its movepool). Do we really need another flavor ability?
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
I don't even care about "clogging" the Pokemon. We just don't have to give it one. I think CAP2's flavor is pretty sufficiently explained by having it only female and with the two flavor abilities it has (kind of a precognition Pokemon of sorts, maybe Future Sight in its movepool). Do we really need another flavor ability?
Why? There is literally no point.
I agree with tennis. I'll be frank, if I were allowed to, I'd have skipped this whole stage entirely and just mandated no third ability! However, since it's a community project and flavor aspect of the CAP no less, I think in all fairness I really ought to supply serious alternatives and CAP needs to vote on it. Let my opinion be known, however! In lieu of that necessity, I'll explain what makes me like Own Tempo.
CAP 2 is based on a shrine maiden, who oftentimes communes with spirits. Dancing with one's own tempo, or rather, own beat, is something that everyone who communes with spirits does (even if they don't actually dance, they do so metaphorically). It also has, as cape suggested, a different flavor to it than the other abilities. Whether that's desired is yet to be seen, but there it is.
Either way, due to community clamor, I think I will be keeping this slate rather small to avoid having the polling extend for three whole polls. Only one or two slated options besides NTA will appear on the slate when I close this later tonight.
CAP 2 is based on a shrine maiden, who oftentimes communes with spirits. Dancing with one's own tempo, or rather, own beat, is something that everyone who communes with spirits does (even if they don't actually dance, they do so metaphorically). It also has, as cape suggested, a different flavor to it than the other abilities. Whether that's desired is yet to be seen, but there it is.
Either way, due to community clamor, I think I will be keeping this slate rather small to avoid having the polling extend for three whole polls. Only one or two slated options besides NTA will appear on the slate when I close this later tonight.
No Tertiary Ability
As far as I'm concerned, the two abilities are enough. All that's really left as a choice is Own Tempo, and even then that would be useless and a wrong direction towards being another Lilligant. (As if every one of its creator's posts having 2 Lilligant wouldn't make it obvious enough...) If we want more flavor, come up with something that works but isn't obscure like Liquid Ooze or expy like Own Tempo, otherwise it's fine.
As far as I'm concerned, the two abilities are enough. All that's really left as a choice is Own Tempo, and even then that would be useless and a wrong direction towards being another Lilligant. (As if every one of its creator's posts having 2 Lilligant wouldn't make it obvious enough...) If we want more flavor, come up with something that works but isn't obscure like Liquid Ooze or expy like Own Tempo, otherwise it's fine.
No Tertiary Ability
Own Tempo or Anticipation would be fine with me, otherwise. Seriously, having two abilities is enough, as it would be terrible to ruin the flavor of CAP2 with a third ability, in my opinion. Even so, the two possible abilities that would fit best with the flavor, and possibly add something, are Own Tempo and Anticipation. Own Tempo, as Rising said, provides more of a spirit-contacter feel, and a pokemon that dances to the beat of hi/her drum. Anticipation would fit because based upon the two abilities we have already, this would fit in nicely, but it would create the feel of a psychic type, which CAP2 is not, which is why I voted against it. I vote against Own Tempo because it's very much possible that having a third and counteracting ability could possibly ruin it altogether, and I'd love to see CAP2 be great.
Own Tempo or Anticipation would be fine with me, otherwise. Seriously, having two abilities is enough, as it would be terrible to ruin the flavor of CAP2 with a third ability, in my opinion. Even so, the two possible abilities that would fit best with the flavor, and possibly add something, are Own Tempo and Anticipation. Own Tempo, as Rising said, provides more of a spirit-contacter feel, and a pokemon that dances to the beat of hi/her drum. Anticipation would fit because based upon the two abilities we have already, this would fit in nicely, but it would create the feel of a psychic type, which CAP2 is not, which is why I voted against it. I vote against Own Tempo because it's very much possible that having a third and counteracting ability could possibly ruin it altogether, and I'd love to see CAP2 be great.
For once, I'll go the alt route and say No Tertiary Ability. I honestly don't want to go through another few rounds of polls just to decide another ability that's possibly even MORE useless than the previous two we'd already discussed and voted for.
Unless there's an ability called Moe-blob to add flavour with, I say we just drop the tertiary ability. The fact that almost all pokes have three abilities isn't really a valid argument anyways...
Unless there's an ability called Moe-blob to add flavour with, I say we just drop the tertiary ability. The fact that almost all pokes have three abilities isn't really a valid argument anyways...
Stench could also be a good ability for Capmon, its marginaly competitive (thanks to the the 10% chance to flinch it got in Gen V) while also fitting in with her flavor of being a dead plant.
Some plants actualy emanate a foul odor, kind of like the stench of a rotting corpse or animal feces to lure in fly's.
Im sure we can find one that fits her flavor without makeing it feel forced or non-flavorish?!?
Some plants actualy emanate a foul odor, kind of like the stench of a rotting corpse or animal feces to lure in fly's.
Im sure we can find one that fits her flavor without makeing it feel forced or non-flavorish?!?
The artist has spoken. If we're choosing abilities purely for flavor and the artist doesn't feel they fit, there's no reason to muddle the concept any further. No Tertiary Ability
Edit: I didn't really mean it like that, or rather, didn't mean to word it that strongly. Of course he shouldn't have full creative control. It's just that we're choosing abilities based purely on flavor, and so I'm not sure it makes sense to add in flavor for flavor's sake. Flavor that wasn't really there to begin with or that the artist didn't really have in mind as being part of the design. Basically what everyone else has said (tennis and others) about there being no need for another ability, Yilx just confirmed my own thoughts about a third one potentially spoiling her flavor.
P.S. I just wanted to let everyone know that I won't have access to my computer for the next rough 24 hours. If a moderator could close this at around the 24 hour mark that'd be great, and I will pick up the poll when I get back (or I may have my ATL do it).
Don't take it that way, that's not what I meant... I just didn't want her to get too cluttered, but in the chance that one DOES get voted in, I'm only for Own Tempo at best. The only thing that makes it look bad is, well, the comparison to liligant that people are drawing. :justin:
I also want to remind people that "the artist has spoken" is not a legitimate argument. As much as I respect Yilx, he isn't in control of the flavor for the CAP just because he won the art polls! Choose what you like the most, not what Yilx likes the most. Anyway, gotta run now. >.>
Ok, I'm going to suggest Pressure. Pressure is in flavor as it could, something like emanate or expel energy while channeling spirits. And it's not as competitive as you might think. The only way it can be effectively used is as a SubSeed set. If we don't give it Leech Seed or make it illegal with Pressure it will have to Sketch Leech Seed and become less unpredictable.
Wait wait wait wait how is this thing supposed to learn Sketch in the first place?
Wait wait wait wait how is this thing supposed to learn Sketch in the first place?
canno
formerly The Reptile
I believe Sketch is an Egg Move.
I meant how the hell is this dead plant gonna use Sketch?
And if it is an Egg Move, it'll have to breed with Smeargle to get Sketch and up to 3 other Egg Moves you want Smeargle to Sketch.
And if it is an Egg Move, it'll have to breed with Smeargle to get Sketch and up to 3 other Egg Moves you want Smeargle to Sketch.
I'm absolutely baffled why this needs multiple flavour abilities. To be honest this discussion is taking time away from competitive discussion that is actually the focus of CAP.
No Tertiary Ability. I didn't see the need for a second ability and there is no need for a third ability.
No Tertiary Ability. I didn't see the need for a second ability and there is no need for a third ability.
Asylum_Rhapsody
Guest
I do not think that this is true, or rather that it's not a very significant majority, certainly not significant enough for us to be making statements about it like it matters. There are quite a lot of Pokemon with only one ability (plus maybe a second due to Dream World). Check out this list.
I totally disagree with this reasoning. Why is an ability that emphasizes Sketchy's "down-to-earth" attributes desirable? Yes, I get that we have two abilities right now that reinforce the clairvoyant channeler flavor, but that's the part of the flavor that actually needs reinforcement. Without an ability like Forewarn, Telepathy, Anticipate, etc. she stops being a channeler and thus didn't fulfill her flavor. Without an ability like Own Tempo, which I guess just reinforces the fact that she maybe dances, her visual design still totally takes care of that part of her flavor. In other words, she doesn't need an ability to clearly be a shrine maiden. We should be using these abilities to reinforce the parts of her flavor that aren't already immediate apparent, and we've already done that. Her flavor as a medium is far more prominent and far more important than her flavor as a maybe dancer.
Doesn't matter. It's more competitive than Forewarn, so it's not going to make it though.
I'm not even sure why people are making such a big deal out of this. Whatever we pick here and/or in the poll doesn't affect the fact that the rest of the process has been delayed. (More time to think of names, honestly.) There is as much of a purpose in no third ability as there is for Own Tempo or anything else. I just think there should be more of a sport about it. It's kind of boring seeing any option being shoehorned in by a landslide, even No Tertiary Ability.
I think both have had good and bad reasons attached to them. The ultimate decision here will be based on clear-cut preference, and it won't "ruin" the CAP.
I think both have had good and bad reasons attached to them. The ultimate decision here will be based on clear-cut preference, and it won't "ruin" the CAP.
In my opinion, Forewarn and Telepathy provide enough flavor. I think it's unique to note that both of these abilities are a nod towards how CAP2 acts rather than how CAP2 functions. For an example, Anticipation Toxicroak is an example of an ability that represents how a Pokemon acts (as a fighter that uses foresight when attacking) while Liquid Ooze Tentacruel is an example of how a Pokemon functions (as a squid that physically secretes liquids). Forewarn and Telepathy fall into the first category in CAP2's case.
It's for this balance that I am personally against Own Tempo, as it would add a third check to the "how this Pokemon acts" column. Right now, I don't see any problem with No Tertiary Ability, but if I saw a strong case that falls on the side of how CAP2 works and functions, then I could be convinced. And in my opinion, the only two candidates of significant flavor value for CAP2 on that side are Sticky Hold and Liquid Ooze. Just some food for thought!
It's for this balance that I am personally against Own Tempo, as it would add a third check to the "how this Pokemon acts" column. Right now, I don't see any problem with No Tertiary Ability, but if I saw a strong case that falls on the side of how CAP2 works and functions, then I could be convinced. And in my opinion, the only two candidates of significant flavor value for CAP2 on that side are Sticky Hold and Liquid Ooze. Just some food for thought!
I'm going with no tertiary ability.
I feel like we're running out of abilities that add flavor rather while not fluctuating the competitiveness of CAP2. We have enough flavor to remember the no competitive ability that we voted on long before. It's about time we stop toying with CAP2's abilities and think of the moves that follow her.
If anyone was wondering about the dream world-therefore no sketch thing, we can still breed in order to pass the ability and sketch. Just explanation if necessary.
I feel like we're running out of abilities that add flavor rather while not fluctuating the competitiveness of CAP2. We have enough flavor to remember the no competitive ability that we voted on long before. It's about time we stop toying with CAP2's abilities and think of the moves that follow her.
If anyone was wondering about the dream world-therefore no sketch thing, we can still breed in order to pass the ability and sketch. Just explanation if necessary.
Looks like neither the ATL or a moderator closed this! Oh well! Merry Christmas everyone, and expect the poll shortly!
- Status