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Even if I'm not very into CAP concept discussion, I just wanted to say that The Patient Mega is almost the only way of realizing a Mega CAP, for three main reasons:
We don't have yet a Pokemon that takes a real advantage of this characteristic of Megaevolution. There are only some examples, like Gyarados or Altaria, but none of the existing Megas focuses on this possibility offered by the Megaevolution;
Making a Megaevolution that is only an improved version of the CAP, would make the existence of the base form useless, because it would mean that you wouldn't use that CAP if not with a mega stone;
Making two different concept for the base form and the mega would mean that the base form can fulfill its role even without its mega stone, constituting a Pokemon on its own. You would have to decide to use the mega or not in base of what you need in your team.
A change of typing upon Megaevolution would be a method to realize this concept, because it would give the CAP different weaknesses. I made a list of all the typing changes that modify totally the weaknesses of the Pokemon (I only added a type to single-type, tell me if I missed any combination)(if it isn't possible, I wrote some combinations of typing+ability to change the weaknesses or nullify them between "[...]"):
Electric and Normal are obviously the types that offer more possibility, because they have only one weakness.
EDIT: I bolded the rarest or not exisisting in OU type combinations.
EDIT 2: I discovered also (it may not be a new information for you) that adding 32 base points to a stat is almost equivalent to giving it 252 EVs (+1 point). This means that, for example, if we give to Mew 252 EVs in HP and 252 EVs in SpD and we make it evolve in a mega that has a stat spread like this: 68/132/100/100/68/132 (I know that decreasing HP upon Megaevolution is impossible, but it's only an example), this mega's stat spread would be almost the same as a 252 Atk / 252 Spe Mew. This means that 32 base points are sufficient to turn a supporter into a sweeper :D
I would like to disagree with the opening statement, as I believe that the only approved concept that we couldn't make work is Choiced Choice Scarf, which is only because a Pokemon can't hold two items. I understand what you're trying to say about taking full advantage of Mega Evolution, but I think we have many ways in which we can do that. Even if the chosen concept isn't about Mega Evolution, during the process there will be discussions on how to make the most of the Mega with the chosen concept.
As a side note, I like how you pointed out many type combinations that could give the Pokemon reasons to not immediately Mega Evolve!
Name: Mind Games General Description: A Pokémon made to neutralize those pesky sweepers that exist in the OU meta. Basically it aims on bringin down all threats to your team, either sweepers or taking over important things that make a tank (ex. Rocky Helmet on Ferrothorn). Justification: Sweepers are always a problem in the OU meta, being either Talonflames, Scizors and other Pokémon like Landorus and Excadrills. This Pokémon aims on predicting switches to bring down the enemy Pokémon. Questions To Be Answered:
Is it too obvious?
Is it underpowered or even not viable?
Can it get destroyed by other bulky Pokémon switching in?
Will it not deal enough damage or be overall useless in defensive teams/Stall? Explanation: It may be obvious, but this Pokémon aims to be in a high risk/high reward overall strategy, neutralizing incoming threats to your team. Underpowered or not being viable can actually be a thing, but it depends on the skill of the player on using certain moves it could learn. Threats to other sweepers like Ferrothorns and Mega Sableyes are also a thing, and this Pokémon may be in trouble if he gets baited into a bulky switch. Players will have to turn that around using mind games and baiting enemies into their own switches. This Pokémon may suffer if placed in Defensive/Stall teams, but it shines on also removing threats that could negate your stalling strategy. Another thing. This Pokémon can also shine in side tiers like Doubles OU or Triples. This Pokémon would bring a great advantage to the metagame since it would introduce a higher skill cap on some teams, that can either help or destroy new players (since by players who use the Pokémon but fail the strategy, or players that studied alot that Pokémon and are perfect with him so they are now laddering.). The Mind Games concept comes over in using moves like Switcheroo, Skill Swap, Trick, Thief and as an example Disable to make useless the enemy Pokémons that threat your team's existence. Overall I personally think a more predictive strategy would be nice to the metagame since the OU metagame kind of lacks Pokémon that need higher skill cap and mental skills to be played.
Name: Mind Games General Description: A Pokémon made to neutralize those pesky sweepers that exist in the OU meta. Justification: Sweepers are always a problem in the OU meta, being either Talonflames, Scizors and other Pokémon like Landorus and Excadrills. This Pokémon aims on predicting switches to bring down the enemy Pokémon. Questions To Be Answered:
Is it too obvious?
Is it underpowered or even not viable?
Can it get destroyed by other bulky Pokémon switching in?
Will it not deal enough damage or be overall useless in defensive teams/Stall? Explanation: It may be obvious, but this Pokémon aims to be in a high risk/high reward overall strategy, neutralizing incoming threats to your team. Underpowered or not being viable can actually be a thing, but it depends on the skill of the player on using certain moves it could learn. Threats to other sweepers like Ferrothorns and Mega Sableyes are also a thing, and this Pokémon may be in trouble if he gets baited into a bulky switch. Players will have to turn that around using mind games and baiting enemies into their own switches. This Pokémon may suffer if placed in Defensive/Stall teams, but it shines on also removing threats that could negate your stalling strategy. Another thing. This Pokémon can also shine in side tiers like Doubles OU or Triples. This Pokémon would bring a great advantage to the metagame since it would introduce a higher skill cap on some teams, that can either help or destroy new players (since by players who use the Pokémon but fail the strategy, or players that studied alot that Pokémon and are perfect with him so they are now laddering.). Overall I personally think a more predictive strategy would be nice to the metagame.
I would suggest that you narrow down the concept just a bit. For example, what types of sweepers would the Pokemon aim to defeat? Also, you might want to emphasize and explain how the "Mind Games" fit into this concept a bit more. Additionally, you might want to address what we can learn or how it benefits the metagame in your justification.
Name: Defense Booster General Description: A pokemon that succeeds through defense boosting moves. Justification: This pokemon will use moves such as Cotton Guard or Cosmic Power to boost its defenses. Right now, there are very few pokemon that can successfully pull this sort of thing off. While Altaria can to some extent, it is definitely not a defining aspect and there is a lot more potential. This Pokemon will create a new niche in the metagame while also allowing us to see how the metagame responds to a growing defensive threat. Questions To Be Answered: How strong are defensive boosting moves when used to their full potential?
How does the metagame respond to defensive boosting?
How do the opportunities people use to set up sweepers compare to the opportunities used to set up defensively?
How much work can a defensively boosted Pokemon do to the enemy team? Explanation: I think that there is still a lot of room for defensive boosting moves to go. The Pokemon can have an ability like suction cups to prevent whirlwind from effecting it, however this is not necessary. Moves like Stored Power can be used for offensive potential, but toxic and seismic toss can also work similarly. Giving it Baton Pass is also a possibility, although that could be risky. Overall, defensive-boosting sets are fun to play, have a lot of potential and can be implemented in a variety of ways, so this seems like a good way to explore that.
The reason defensive boosting moves are rarely used is because they're way too slow to use on most walls. A good defensive pokemon is able to switch into big hits at a whim, potentially from already boosted attackers, and something that relies on boosting moves to wall would be totally unable to do this. You could potentially get around this by Baton Passing your boosts to an already defensive pokemon, but at that point, it's generally better to just pass offensive boosts to a sweeper instead.
Honestly, I'm also sort of afraid that we could just come up with exactly Sigilyph, or something equally gimmicky, trying to make this work. In any case, I'm not optimistic about the chances of this working out.
The reason defensive boosting moves are rarely used is because they're way too slow to use on most walls. A good defensive pokemon is able to switch into big hits at a whim, potentially from already boosted attackers, and something that relies on boosting moves to wall would be totally unable to do this. You could potentially get around this by Baton Passing your boosts to an already defensive pokemon, but at that point, it's generally better to just pass offensive boosts to a sweeper instead.
Honestly, I'm also sort of afraid that we could just come up with exactly Sigilyph, or something equally gimmicky, trying to make this work. In any case, I'm not optimistic about the chances of this working out.
I think part of this is because we're looking at this from the perspective of the current mindset we have. This Pokemon isn't supposed to be a wall in the traditional sense where it switches in and takes a hit. This Pokemon is more like a set up sweeper in a way where it's looking for it's opportunity to get going. Additionally, just because it has a defensive boosting move doesn't mean it can't switch in to attacks. It doesn't have to 'rely' on boosting moves, the CAP can be a traditional wall that becomes much stronger through boosting. As for sigilyph, I think that it has a lot of weaknesses that are holding it back which can be overcome by the CAP. It has a pretty terrible defensive typing and mediocre stats. I think we can improve significantly.
Defensive boosting has a lot of problems realistically. Toxic cripples defensive boosters by bypassing their boosts (unless they have a specific ability to stop that) and Critical Hits ignore defensive boosts. Additionally, it takes a couple of defensive boosts to make a difference; unlike most offensive sweepers who just need one to start wreaking havoc, and this completely kills momentum. Plus you're forced to rely on either Residual Damage (Toxic being the most notable) or Stored Power in order to deal any damage. Mega Sableye also completely shuts down both Residual Damage (not counting weather) and Stored Power and then it can just set up on you with Calm Mind.
defensive boosting has problems... yet anything that can defensively boost in OU doesn't do it too well, a CAP designed to use defensive boosting would overcome these problems and make it a viable sweeper. I know it's an example from LC, but swirlix's arguably most broken set was Cotton Guard+Calm Mind. it had all the right tools to make a defensive boosting set work, and be able to sweep teams, even with just Cotton Guard boosts, due to decent special bulk, unburden and draining kiss, alongside another move of choice, often substitute (for status), aromatherapy (for status), flamethrower (for steels), or protect (for fake out users). LC Swirlix proved that defensive boosting can be viable and I really don't see why it's an unviable CAP concept.
Name: Defense Booster General Description: A pokemon that succeeds through defense boosting moves. Justification: This pokemon will use moves such as Cotton Guard or Cosmic Power to boost its defenses. Right now, there are very few pokemon that can successfully pull this sort of thing off. While Altaria can to some extent, it is definitely not a defining aspect and there is a lot more potential. This Pokemon will create a new niche in the metagame while also allowing us to see how the metagame responds to a growing defensive threat. Questions To Be Answered: How strong are defensive boosting moves when used to their full potential?
How does the metagame respond to defensive boosting?
How do the opportunities people use to set up sweepers compare to the opportunities used to set up defensively?
How much work can a defensively boosted Pokemon do to the enemy team? Explanation: I think that there is still a lot of room for defensive boosting moves to go. The Pokemon can have an ability like suction cups to prevent whirlwind from effecting it, however this is not necessary. Moves like Stored Power can be used for offensive potential, but toxic and seismic toss can also work similarly. Giving it Baton Pass is also a possibility, although that could be risky. Overall, defensive-boosting sets are fun to play, have a lot of potential and can be implemented in a variety of ways, so this seems like a good way to explore that.
This concept looks interesting, as the point would be to teach us about the potential of defensive boosts when there is an actual Pokemon that can make use of it. That said, I do suggest adding in a few more questions that this concept will likely have to look at:
- What is the best way to utilize defensive boosts to their full potential? (Whether it be offensive capabilities or defensive utilities)
- Does a defense boosting Pokemon have to be passive/not passive to succeed?
- Where is the fine line between a Pokemon that is a viable defensive booster and a Pokemon that is obnoxiously bulky to the point where it is over-centralizing?
There's likely more questions to go with, but these are questions that immediately come to mind just reading this concept. Would be worth adding in to round out your questions, just a suggestion.
Name: Mind Games General Description: A Pokémon made to neutralize those pesky sweepers that exist in the OU meta. Basically it aims on bringin down all threats to your team, either sweepers or taking over important things that make a tank (ex. Rocky Helmet on Ferrothorn). Justification: Sweepers are always a problem in the OU meta, being either Talonflames, Scizors and other Pokémon like Landorus and Excadrills. This Pokémon aims on predicting switches to bring down the enemy Pokémon. Questions To Be Answered:
Is it too obvious?
Is it underpowered or even not viable?
Can it get destroyed by other bulky Pokémon switching in?
Will it not deal enough damage or be overall useless in defensive teams/Stall? Explanation: It may be obvious, but this Pokémon aims to be in a high risk/high reward overall strategy, neutralizing incoming threats to your team. Underpowered or not being viable can actually be a thing, but it depends on the skill of the player on using certain moves it could learn. Threats to other sweepers like Ferrothorns and Mega Sableyes are also a thing, and this Pokémon may be in trouble if he gets baited into a bulky switch. Players will have to turn that around using mind games and baiting enemies into their own switches. This Pokémon may suffer if placed in Defensive/Stall teams, but it shines on also removing threats that could negate your stalling strategy. Another thing. This Pokémon can also shine in side tiers like Doubles OU or Triples. This Pokémon would bring a great advantage to the metagame since it would introduce a higher skill cap on some teams, that can either help or destroy new players (since by players who use the Pokémon but fail the strategy, or players that studied alot that Pokémon and are perfect with him so they are now laddering.). The Mind Games concept comes over in using moves like Switcheroo, Skill Swap, Trick, Thief and as an example Disable to make useless the enemy Pokémons that threat your team's existence. Overall I personally think a more predictive strategy would be nice to the metagame since the OU metagame kind of lacks Pokémon that need higher skill cap and mental skills to be played.
I mean, most sweepers in OU are discouraged from attempting to sweep through being pressured by the opposing team. Why do you think Talonflame / Zard X / Mega Altaria, despite being very dangerous threats, can rarely pull off a clean sweep?
Okay, I was given a chance to reimagine Stun Gun, and advised to turn it into something better capable of helping VoltTurn in a world with Garchomp without being a redundant Paralysis threat like Thunderus. I took some time to think it over, and I think this new VT idea better suits the strategy.
Name: Cold Bug (formally Stun Gun)
General Description: Cold Bug is the hard counter Volt-Turn teams need to survive those Ground threats that so often stifle them, which in turn hold back the entire Volt-Turn archetype.
Justification: VoltTurn is a fun, complex play style requiring careful planning and predictions. It's also very often stopped dead in its tracks by a bulky Ground Type. Cold Bug allows VoltTurn to overcome those counters, giving it a better chance to win. It can switch in to either chase away those threats, or just beat them.
Questions to Be Answered:
Cold Bug might result in a combination of types not yet seen. Would that cause an unintended imbalance?
Would such a typing result in a move pool that just isn't effective against too much of the metagame? Would that matter given its envisioned role?
Should Cold Bug be on the bulkier side to absorb a hit, or faster but more frail in order to outpace its opponent?
Should Cold Bug's move pool be kept narrow to create a defined role, or given a moderately larger pool to create more versatile variants?
Should it be given high Atk or SpA? Which would be more effective given it's specified role?
Could Cold Bug be given a reliable status move with its potential movepool?
Explanation: Garchomp. It stops Electric attacks dead. It walls off a number of VoltTurn standards. It can clear out a VT team, and render the archetype unplayable. It's an extremely popular Pokemon capable of many roles, but throw one out against VoltTurn, and the result is almost always the same.
Let's change that.
Cold Bug, as envisioned, could learn U-Turn and another attack that is supereffective against the pseudo legendary land shark. This gives Volt-Turn another member that can pop in and out of combat, and deploy a move or two that VT generally lacks. It allows VT to maintain momentum without having to go out of its way to include a Garchomp counter that can subtract from VT's overall attack plan. Cold Bug could carry a Focus Sash like a champ, and could be built to wield a high SpA. It's not great against stall teams, but it would have the means to pop off an attack and high tail it out of danger. Depending on its potential move set, it might even be able to hurt a few of the more popular Megas before going down. It deemed acceptable, it could even carry a potent status move to help compensate for it's limited move pool.
ZapDraws I like how you picked U-turn because nothing relevant is truly immune to it (Shedinja is that one thing because of Wonder Guard). Arguably, I think it should have a decent Attack stat so it can utilize U-turn as an attacking move as well, and it won't need Volt Switch for obvious reasons. However, your name suggests that its typing be a Bug, even if it's likely figurative.
I mean, most sweepers in OU are discouraged from attempting to sweep through being pressured by the opposing team. Why do you think Talonflame / Zard X / Mega Altaria, despite being very dangerous threats, can rarely pull off a clean sweep?
That is kind of true. But there are other threat sweepers that can pull of a clean sweep, even if it means talking about the lowest part of the ladder, like Gyarados, Zard Y even Togekiss. But the overall idea of the concept is a more predictive playstyle while using that CAP.
Cold Bug, as envisioned, could learn U-Turn and another attack that is supereffective against the pseudo legendary land shark. Cold Bug could carry a Focus Sash like a champ, and could be built to wield a high SpA.
Seriously tho, an Ice-type with 116/114/121 offenses that learns U-turn and can keep its Focus Sash intact by being immune to Stealth Rock? That was literally the first CAP ever =)
Seriously tho, an Ice-type with 116/114/121 offenses that learns U-turn and can keep its Focus Sash intact by being immune to Stealth Rock? That was literally the first CAP ever =)
Seriously tho, an Ice-type with 116/114/121 offenses that learns U-turn and can keep its Focus Sash intact by being immune to Stealth Rock? That was literally the first CAP ever =)
You can't really afford to be weak to Stealth Rocks with this topic. All the monsters you're attempting to counter carry it, and you inherently need to switch in and out of combat by definition of the concept. At best, neutrality may be possible, but a weakness is not.
I know you didn't mention SR. What I'm trying to say is that, if what you're trying to do is have a Garchomp counter for VoltTurn teams, whose main features are "has an insanely powerful Ice-type move", "learns U-turn" and "can rock a Focus Sash", that concept is literally Syclant. Syclant can OHKO Garchomp with Ice Beam (or Icicle Spear, probably, but I'd have to calc), it gets a really powerful STAB U-turn out of a 116 base Atk, and Sash is pretty much standard on it. Syclant even goes as far as having that Rock immunity to take care of one of Garchomp's main ways to wear down its counters. The only way to make a better "Chomp counter for VoltTurn" would be to make it bulky as well, or immune to passive damage altogether, which is just too much.
You know that Garchomp has Rough Skin right? So if you click U-Turn and hit Garchomp, then that sash is gone. I just don't know about this concept, its similar to an existing CAP, and its not like there are Volt Switch Mons out there that don't have an SE move against Garchomp. The issue with Garchomp is more "I cannot get my chain going against it", as opposed to hitting it with a move that chunks it out (WoW, Hydro Pump, HP Ice are just three moves off the top of my head).
Not to rush the process, but I'd imagine that this thread has about 48 to 72 hours before closing. At that time, the Quality Control team will look at any lingering concepts and move them on to development if need be. Otherwise, we're going to get started with CAP 21 with what we've got. Thanks for everyone's submissions thus far. Let's keep it going!
I like your idea, but I think Mowtom was generally correct; judging by the previous CAP core-related concepts, now is probably not the right time to focus on relying on cores for a concept.
I hate to be "that guy" who isn't letting something go, but seeing as we're in the last couple days for this thread, I just wanted to ask something that's been on my mind regarding some of these recent concepts. Basically, if a concept is good, but for whatever reason it's not the right time to do it, for either meta-related or community-related reasons, shouldn't it still get a +1? Obviously, I'm thinking about Patient Mega, but it's more general than that as well (like the Charizard Gambit and Bring Two Pick One, both of which we're also not ready for, but are probably good concepts.) Doing so would give them their own threads so that we can discuss them without interrupting the flow of this thread, which is more to see if a concept is viable at all or not, and if they do get approved, there's no reason they have to get selected for the next CAP if we're not ready to do them. Because realistically, a concept that gets a "It's good, but not yet" is just going to get reposted in every concept submissions thread until it finally gets approved, which is a waste of time for everyone involved.
So basically, even if we're not ready to do a specific concept even though it's solid, I'm not sure why we don't give it the +1 anyway and just not select it for the upcoming CAP until we ARE ready.
