CAP 22 CAP 22 - Part 8 - Moveset Discussion

[snake]

At the outset I myself was wary of Knock Off because of it's interactions with Scarved checks. The damage concerns I think are minimal because many checks simply don't care about the damage (Mega-Meta, Mega-Venu, Mega-Crucibelle, Clefable to an extent). Some checks do, though. Kitsunoh is 2HKO'd, Scarf Jirachi and Volkraken (about half the time, every time with Spikes down) are KO'd by Knock Off followed by Close Combat, while SpD Jirachi can survive, but not with a lot of health (Iron Head doesn't KO after LO damage either). Jirachi and Kitsunoh face this issue with Knock Off whenever it is run with a neutral nature regardless of investment, however if CAP does not invest Attack then Volkraken shrugs off Knock Off followed by Close Combat and easily OHKOs with Analytic Fire Blast or Flash Cannon.

That said, if you aren't running the Mixed set Pokemon like Skarmory can soak up an uninvested Knock Off easily and Tornadus threatens a OHKO with Hurricane regardless. Long story short Knock Off does interfere with the threats list, but it only does so with both prediction and investment. Pokemon with lost items are not any more significantly crippled than losing those items generally does to them, and in the case of Jirachi and Kitsunoh they can still Trick away CAP's Life Orb and weaken it that way.

So Knock Off does have consequences. I don't think they are overwhelming but I don't think they are insignificant. What I can say is that Knock Off affects checks significantly only on an invested mixed set, which I think is an argument in favor of it being a balanced support option. Right now I'm holding it In Consideration, possibly going to a poll.

While you address the concerns about damage, Knock Off still lets CAP22 get around its Scarfed checks and counters too well, even if it runs 0 Attack EVs and a Timid Nature. In fact, there exists a precedent for a Pokemon like CAP22 with this move: Tornadus-T. CAP22 is already similar to Tornadus-T in many ways: they have access to powerful special STAB move(s), Fighting-type moves, and a pivoting move that does little or no damage. They will be even more similar if CAP22 has access to Knock Off. While not too many common scarfers actually threaten Tornadus-T, one in particular does: Choice Scarf Crucibelle. While it's not common, it will serve to support my point that Knock Off, with the right prediction, unnecessarily lets CAP22 beat some of its checks and counters.

Consider Choice Scarf Crucibelle's match-up with Assault Vest Tornadus-T, by far Tornadus-T's most common set in CAP due to its ability to check Cawmodore with Heat Wave.

Tornadus-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 96 HP / 160 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature / Hasty Nature
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Heat Wave / Superpower / Focus Blast

Choice Scarf Crucibelle, in theory, should be a very good switch in to AV Tornadus-T. It resists both of its attacking moves:

160 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle: 84-100 (23.7 - 28.2%) -- 94.4% chance to 4HKO
160 SpA Tornadus-T Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle: 49-58 (13.8 - 16.3%) -- possible 7HKO

In case you're wondering about the Fighting-type moves:

0 Atk Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crucibelle: 123-145 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
160 SpA Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle: 124-146 (35 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

While U-turn and Knock Off do damage some damage, they're used for their secondary effects. Scarf Crucibelle also outspeeds (if it still has its Scarf) and defeats Tornadus-T with both of its STAB moves:

252 Atk Life Orb Crucibelle Head Smash vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 663-780 (205.2 - 241.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Crucibelle Stone Edge vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 439-523 (135.9 - 161.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

However, Tornadus-T has two ways to prevent Crucibelle from checking it as effectively. The first is Knock Off. If Crucibelle switches into Tornadus-T and has its Choice Scarf knocked off, Crucibelle no longer outspeeds Tornadus-T, and on the next turn, Tornadus-T can outspeed and use U-turn on the next turn and switch to a physical tank or wall. This remains true for the rest of the match. If Crucibelle switches into Tornadus-T, it can easily tank one of its moves, but then Tornadus-T use U-turn on the next turn. In short, Crucibelle cannot check Tornadus-T at all (until the end of the battle ofc) because Tornadus-T had access to Knock Off.

The other way Tornadus-T can prevent Crucibelle from checking it as effectively is U-turn. If Tornadus-T uses U-turn as Crucibelle switches in, Tornadus-T can escape safely and switch to the physical tank or wall. While Tornadus-T escaped on the switch, Crucibelle can come back in to check it again later on in the match.

Notice the difference between Knock Off and U-turn. Knock Off is a permanent way for Tornadus-T to prevent Crucibelle from checking it; whereas U-turn is a temporary method.

This difference is why I believe CAP22 should NOT have access to Knock Off. Scarf Crucibelle is one of the few viable scarfers (i.e. not the only scarfer) that reasonably threatens Tornadus-T. CAP22 should be threatened by many more, including but not limited to Scarf Volkraken, Scarf Mollux, Scarf Kitsunoh, and Scarf Jirachi. The correct response to predicting one of these Pokemon should be Parting Shot, not Knock Off. Parting Shot lets CAP22 to escape these checks, but at the same time it does not permanently cripple them from their job to check CAP22. In fact, going back to the comparison between Tornadus-T, Parting Shot harms these scarfers much worse than U-turn does. U-turn does a little bit of chip damage, but Parting Shot debuffs the scarfer's offenses; most scarfers have no way to boost their offenses back and don't have a offense boosting item to begin with. In other words, CAP22 already has a way, through the use of prediction, to mitigate the effectiveness of these Choice Scarfed checks in the form of Parting Shot. If we give CAP22 access to Knock Off, we stop people from using Parting Shot in these opportunities, which is, in its own way, anti-concept.

tl;dr Knock Off's ability to permanently stop scarfers that should check CAP22 multiple times during a match should be reason enough not to allow it. Tornadus-T gives us reasonable precedent for this issue.

 

[Natu Worry]

Glad to see Yawn getting support! I have one more set I would like to propose:

Name: The Perfect Sweep
Move 1: Light Screen
Move 2: Reflect
Move 3: Parting Shot
Move 4: Yawn / Taunt / Moonblast
Ability: Aroma Veil
Item: Light Clay
EVs: 252 HP 4 SpA 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

This is a hyper offensive support set based around creating an ideal setup opportunity for a sweeper. The premise is simple:
1. Set your screens
2. Yawn the opponent to either force a switch or put it to sleep (creates a "free" turn to safely bring in the sweeper)
3. Parting Shot out into the setup sweeper

CAP22's amazing speed and decent bulk (with 252 HP under screens) combined with Aroma Veil, Light Clay and Parting Shot working like a pseudo Memento allowing it to reliably set the stage for a clean sweep. I decided to slash Taunt because it pressures passive pokemon, defogers and phazing mons. Finally, Moonblast is slashed as an option to prevent CAP22 from being too passive and moonblast even uninvested still chunks threats such as Colossoil and Tomohawk.

 

[Korski]

Sorry to bring up entry hazards again but in rereading the thread I couldn't really get a grasp on how these moves ended up categorized the way they are. I can't find any consensus on Spikes whatsoever, much the opposite. There are quite a few practical and conceptual arguments against Spikes spread across various posts, in argument with a single fully pro-Spikes user and I think only one other "Spikes could be cool" comment before the move was "firmly accepted." This is in contrast to Stealth Rock, which was banned from the start for impacting our threats list too much. The trouble with this, as far as I can tell, is that the same practical arguments apply to both hazards, except way back in the typing discussion we explicitly chose Stealth Rock-weak Pokemon to be drawn in against this CAP. There is no logic here that simultaneously allows Spikes and disallows Stealth Rock and they should both be disallowed for the exact same reasons. Sure, the CAP has checks with available recovery options, but Spikes and SR are indistinguishable with that argument. And yes, the CAP has a handful of checks that are immune to Spikes, but it has more of them that aren't, and many of those are also weak to Stealth Rock and many have no means of recovering off this damage. On a practical level, layer stacking is nothing but a replacement utility for Parting Shot; they are more consistently advantageous and of greater aid to an offensive Pokemon such as this. If this CAP can drop Spikes, it will run three attacks alongside it and be a self-sufficient cleaner or it will run dual-STABs and Taunt to be a stallbreaker or anti-lead; it doesn't have the bulk or typing to be a mono-attacker with Taunt, Spikes, and Parting Shot all on the same set. To assume this thing has all the time in the world to fulfill three unique utility roles is absurd.

If there was a good conceptual argument for including entry hazards in the movepool, none of this would matter as much, but there really isn't, at least not in this thread. And there hasn't been any response to the conceptual argument that Spikes only risks taking priority over Parting Shot if this CAP gets access to it. Parting Shot is a support move we are intending an offensive Pokemon to use, which is already tricky enough without giving the CAP more consistent support options to choose from.

 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Is there any consideration for a Cleric set? I know there was talk over Wish, but a few debunked that as Jirachi having the higher HP, but Jirachi doesn't get access to Aromatherapy. Switch into a Taunt vs a Dark Type, and then Aromatherapy on the switch, with a Parting Shot to cripple the next one in. STAB (or Yawn)/Parting Shot/Wish/Aromatherapy.

 

[Deck Knight]

The logic for Spikes vs Stealth Rock is fairly simple.

1. Parting Shot's primary weakness is that it doesn't do damage and therefore is limited in punishing switches.
2. Combined in-house with Spikes, Parting Shot enhances its ability to put pressure on the opposing team because they will suffer damage from switching out a debuffed Pokemon.

So far of course, you would be right that Spikes is indistinguishable from Stealth Rock. So why not Stealth Rock?
Because there IS an appreciable difference between 12.5% un-typed damage which a large portion of the metagame is immune to and 12.5% typed damage that chips every single target in the metagame (except Mega Crucibelle, Mountaineer Syclant, MG Krilowatt, and MG Clefable.) Tornadus-T does not care about Spikes. Every Flying-type Defogger doesn't care about Spikes. Scarf Latios does not care about Spikes. Particularly ballsy Tomohawks can switch in when they anticipate Parting Shot, and provided the team does not have an additional Pokemon to threaten it, Tomohawk gets an opportunity to Rapid spin away Spikes while taking no damage. Finally, even though it is a very niche item even among users, even Air Balloon can render any Pokemon in the metagame immune to Spikes while the item is intact.

So far from being indistinguishable, Spikes and Stealth Rock are completely different. The KOs and 2HKOs they enable are completely different. Following up Statement 1 and 2, Statement 3 is:

3. Spikes has limited interaction with our threat list and the metagame has multiple, significant, viable ways around it whereas the same cannot be said about Stealth Rock.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

So on the main page it says there should be more discussion about Sleep inducing moves. These are specifically Spore, Sleep Powder, and Hypnosis.
Definitely no for Spore. Our CAP could outspeed and put a significantly large amount of intended threats to sleep, and then beat them through raw weardown while they are asleep. Either that, or the opponent will be forced to switch out into a Pokemon that will take more significant damage from the CAP. I feel like this move would cause our threatlist to be almost bypassed to some extent.

Sleep Powder is the same situation, but not as bad because it has worse accuracy. Hypnosis I feel would be a good addition to the movepool of this CAP. It would provide the same utility, but make it less reliable of an option against threats. Therefore, it would provide a high-risk high-reward situation because if it misses, the threat KOs CAP22. However, if it hits, CAP22 can beat a threat or cause general difficulties for the opponent throughout the match.

 

[Alfalfa]

So on the main page it says there should be more discussion about Sleep inducing moves. These are specifically Spore, Sleep Powder, and Hypnosis.
Definitely no for Spore. Our CAP could outspeed and put a significantly large amount of intended threats to sleep, and then beat them through raw weardown while they are asleep. Either that, or the opponent will be forced to switch out into a Pokemon that will take more significant damage from the CAP. I feel like this move would cause our threatlist to be almost bypassed to some extent.

Sleep Powder is the same situation, but not as bad because it has worse accuracy. Hypnosis I feel would be a good addition to the movepool of this CAP. It would provide the same utility, but make it less reliable of an option against threats. Therefore, it would provide a high-risk high-reward situation because if it misses, the threat KOs CAP22. However, if it hits, CAP22 can beat a threat or cause general difficulties for the opponent throughout the match.

We have already slated Yawn, as well as Taunt and Spikes. If anything, CAP 22 already has a number of available support moves to choose from. Hypnosis is not that consistent, but given what our CAP already has, it might not be a good idea to expand its support movepool, otherwise it would have more difficulty justifying the use of Parting Shot.

 

[snake]

Name: Offensive Utility (Spikes)
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Parting Shot
Move 3: Taunt Aura Sphere / Focus Blast
Move 4: Spikes
Ability: Natural Cure / Aroma Veil
Item: Leftovers / Life Orb / Leftovers
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

CAP22 simply doesn't have the room or bulk to run all of Taunt + Parting Shot + Spikes. It needs it secondary STAB so it doesn't completely walled by Steel- and Fire-types. Parting Shot + Spikes will work on a set, but Taunt seems unnecessary with these other moves.

 

[Deck Knight]

Apologies for not posting sooner.

I'm modifying the Spikes set with snake_rattler's update, as Taunt has its own set which has thus far been entirely uncontroversial.

I am moving the Yawn set into approved as people like its interaction with Parting Shot.

As of yet there has been no discussion of the stat dropping set, and additional scrutiny for Knock Off. I have also talked to users on PS who would like to discuss Play Rough on a physical set. Therefore I am modifying sets to the folowing statuses:

Spikes set has been updated to have Dual STAB over Taunt and placed back into Under Consideration based on continuing feedback.

I would like to wrap this thread up before I head to work on Tuesday at 7pm, so if you can tidily present your final arguments for the following moves, it would be greatly appreciated:

Play Rough
Knock Off

Encore
Spikes
Moonlight
Light Screen
Reflect

Charm/Feather Dance
Snarl

Finally, I would like your disposition on the 3 other pivot moves:
U-turn, Volt Switch, and Baton Pass just so we can be thorough.

 

[snake]

Play Rough: Honestly I can't really see the move being useful beyond four cases: a guaranteed 2HKO (assuming max attack LO) on Assault Vest Tornadus-T (which doesn't matter since it forces CAP22 out and has Regenerator), a harder hit on Revenankh (which already takes a lot from Moonblast), gimmicky surprise sets, or just having it for flavor. I just don't see what Play Rough does that a mixed set or a full special set can't. Every target that'd want to be hit with a physical Fairy-type move would rather be hit with Close Combat, and you give up clean OHKOes on Tomohawk and Cyclohm.

Do these people want a physical Fairy-type STAB just to be able to use max attack Close Combat and not have to worry about splitting EVs? Even then, assuming neutral attack natures, CAP22's Attack stat with 252 Attack EVs is 255, and CAP22's Special Attack stat with 0 Special Attack EVs is 266. If CAP22 runs a Special Attack hindering nature, its Special Attack stat is 239, which isn't much lower than its Attack stat. Moonblast, any way you slice it, won't be much weaker than Play Rough, especially factoring in Moonblast's slightly higher BP. This fact, in combination with the physically biased nature of the metagame and with a short list of targets when factoring what Close Combat hits harder, means that Play Rough has no real competitive value and should be reserved for flavor purposes imo.

Feather Dance/Charm and Snarl:
The set for these is kind of iffy honestly. While this set just aims to lower the opponent's attack stats into oblivion, what's the point? I mean I guess now it has the "bulk" to run a mono attacking set, but I can't see myself using this over an offensive set. I don't think we should burden the movepool stage with unnecessary required moves for the sake of having more moves.

Reflect/Light Screen:
I could see these on a set, and realistically they don't really overshadow Parting Shot in that they eat up two moveslots and don't pivot out the user. At the same time though, it's two more moves that movepool might potentially have to deal with, so I'm really uncertain if we really need these moves. At least the set it was proposed in gives Aroma Veil a use.

Spikes / Knock Off:
I am very neutral on these moves. Both have very heavy pros and cons, so I am unsure about them. I'll see what everyone else has to say before giving a final opinion.

Moonlight:
Moonlight is a move that would see usage on Life Orb sets; in fact in conjunction with Taunt, CAP22 could be a very potent stallbreaker. I could see these two sets with it:

Name: Moonlight Stallbreaker
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Aura Sphere / Focus Blast
Move 3: Taunt
Move 4: Moonlight
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Name: Moonlight + 3 Attacks
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Aura Sphere / Focus Blast
Move 3: Sludge Wave
Move 4: Moonlight
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Moonlight would be very useful. CAP22 forces quite a few switches, so being able to use those switches to heal off Life Orb recoil would be very useful for CAP22. However, it does distract from Parting Shot, so I wouldn't be surprised by resistance to it. I want to support it because honestly I don't think it will overshadow Parting Shot, but it will give CAP22 an option to use over Parting Shot. Like I said at the beginning of the thread, perhaps it is narrow-minded to expect CAP22 to run Parting Shot 100% of the time. I'm leaning a little towards Allow for this move.

Encore: At the beginning of this thread I wanted this move. It forces switches very well if used correctly; CAP22 can use those turns to use Parting Shot. However, most of the time, Encore is used against set up moves, which kind of defeats the purpose of Parting Shot's use of lowering stats. Additionally, Encore in conjunction with Spikes could lead to a set like this:

Name: Encore + Spikes Blah
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Aura Sphere / Focus Blast
Move 3: Encore
Move 4: Spikes
Ability: Natural Cure / Aroma Veil
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

This would give CAP22 an extremely easy time setting up Spikes. Parting Shot + Spikes might be a healthy combination. Encore + Spikes is definitely not.

Other pivoting or momentum gaining moves:
Ban them all. They completely distract CAP22 from using Parting Shot. Not only should we ban Volt Switch, U-turn, and Baton Pass, but also we should ban Self-Destruct, Explosion, Healing Wish, and Lunar Dance (if this one isn't banned already). There's just no point in having any of these.

Other:
Earlier in the thread I asked about whether we should allow Giga Drain. While it's unstabbed, it can net great amounts of healing against certain targets. Could we get a little discussion on this to close off Grass-type discussion?

 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Giga Drain is theoretically going to be up against the STAB Draining Kiss and Drain Punch, and provides a coverage for Ground/Water, without increasing threat against Poison, but at the expense of losing a STAB against a Dragon (not that CAP22 can do anything against a defensive Latias-M anyway even with a Draining Kiss).

Drain Punch has higher power (112.5), while Draining Kiss has a higher heal rate (75 Power, 75% Healing), for 56.25% Healed on either, compared to 37.5% damage dealt. I don't see a problem with allowing Giga Drain personally, but I don't see it as a particularly competitive option. It also provides coverage for water which in the OP, coverage for Water (and Rock, although Fighting STAB covers that) is "not allowed" (although of course, with only 75 Base Power, and no

If you're interested in Healing, what about a Rest/Talk? It eats up two slots, plus one for Parting Shot. That then leaves room for something like something like Spikes or one of the Screens, or a more offensively minded ability (one of the aforementioned healing attacks possibly).

 

[Flargliklarfglik]

WTF... This thread has been closed for submissions 90% of the time... Let me guess you've just forgotten to update this?

-Moveset submissions are currently Closed (Temp) -

Can I still bring up calm mind?

Having a calm mind set would allow you to play mind games, boosting instead of just switching like everyone expects... This thing is going to be very predictable with the current movesets.

Name: Boosting shots
Move 1: Aura Sphere/Moonblast
Move 2: Draining kiss/Vacuum wave
Move 3: Calm mind
Move 4: Parting Shot/Earth power/Hp ground
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Being able to choose between going for a switch or stat boost to sweep adds versatility this cap really needs.


If not for boosting on his high special attack he could use swords dance/Hone claws and make physical sets viable as well.

Name: Physical pivot
Move 1: Play rough
Move 2: Fire punch/Ice punch/Thunder punch/Focus punch/Dynamic punch
Move 3: Swords Dance/Hone claws
Move 4: Parting Shot
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Fairly straight forward, it uses play rough for stab, and a punch move of your choice for coverage. You can run focus punch if you want to really punish switches, or dynamic punch to confuse if you're running hone claws.

 

[Flargliklarfglik]

Giga Drain is theoretically going to be up against the STAB Draining Kiss and Drain Punch, and provides a coverage for Ground/Water, without increasing threat against Poison, but at the expense of losing a STAB against a Dragon (not that CAP22 can do anything against a defensive Latias-M anyway even with a Draining Kiss).

Drain Punch has higher power (112.5), while Draining Kiss has a higher heal rate (75 Power, 75% Healing), for 56.25% Healed on either, compared to 37.5% damage dealt. I don't see a problem with allowing Giga Drain personally, but I don't see it as a particularly competitive option. It also provides coverage for water which in the OP, coverage for Water (and Rock, although Fighting STAB covers that) is "not allowed" (although of course, with only 75 Base Power, and no

If you're interested in Healing, what about a Rest/Talk? It eats up two slots, plus one for Parting Shot. That then leaves room for something like something like Spikes or one of the Screens, or a more offensively minded ability (one of the aforementioned healing attacks possibly).

This pokemons inferior attack stat would mean that drain punch would not hit 50% more damage, and would in fact drain less than kiss. I'm to lazy to do the math now, but drain might even hit less depending on your stat spread.

 

[Bughouse]

Entry hazards are a distraction from Parting Shot. CAP 22 will enjoy abusing entry hazards on switches that it forces and Parting Shots around, but it should not itself be laying the hazards. Spikes + 3 Attacks would be just as good, if not better, than Parting Shot + 3 Attacks. Add in a fast Taunt to prevent Defog (as well as the fact that CAP 22 already beats a few common Defoggers), a powerful Moonblast to deter some of the best spinners in the tier, there's little reason not to use Spikes. Spikes is a very good move and CAP 22 threatens Colossoil, Diancie, and Sableye too much for them to come in...

Spikes will likely turn CAP 22 into the best offensive Spiker in the metagame (or at least a very strong alternative to Syclant), moreso than a Pokemon that uses Parting Shot.

 

[david0895]

Play Rough: Why not? Revenankh and Tornadus-T take more damage from this move rather than others. Also can be useful to revenge kill come low health pokemon like Colossoil or Malaconda without lowering the defences with Close Combat
Knock Off: The problem with this move is that allow CAP22 to remove some important items from its counters (most important is Scarf from Mollux and Plasmanta) that can enter on its STABs
Encore: I find this move redundant with Parting Shot, since both the cases of being locked or having its Atk/SpA lowered will probably end in a switch
Spikes / Moonlight: No problem with this moves
Reflect / Light Screen: I really like the idea of a dual screen moveset supported with Parting Shot

Charm / Feather Dance: Good way to contrast Sword Dance users
Snarl: Not sure if this move will be used often, but it's good since can be used with Natural Cure, without the fear of being taunted

U-turn / Volt Switch / Baton Pass: Absolutely NO. Same motivations of snake

Giga Drain: If Energy ball and Grass Knot will be allowed, why not? Lower damage, but it compensates the Life Orb recoil

Also I don't agree with snake decision to ban Healing Wish / Lunar Dance : not only can be really useful for the team, but can be used both in the attacking set and in the bulkier set

Name: Parting Healer
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Aura Sphere / Focus Blast
Move 3: Parting Shot
Move 4: Healing Wish / Lunar Dance
Ability: Natural Cure / Aroma Veil
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Not Sure if Close Combat can be useful on this set...

Name: Full Support (Based of Memento set)
Move 1: Reflect
Move 2: Light Screen
Move 3: Parting Shot
Move 4: Healing Wish / Lunar Dance
Ability: Aroma Veil
Item: Light Clay
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Atk / 220 Spe
Nature: Timid

Speed is enough to outspeed Scarf Magnezone, but you can change it depending on what you want to outpace.

Flargliklarfglik Boosting moves are anti-concept because they favor the use of offensive moves instead of Parting Shot.

 

[Hoping4megasceptile]

WTF... This thread has been closed for submissions 90% of the time... Let me guess you've just forgotten to update this?

Can I still bring up calm mind?

Having a calm mind set would allow you to play mind games, boosting instead of just switching like everyone expects... This thing is going to be very predictable with the current movesets.

Name: Boosting shots
Move 1: Aura Sphere/Moonblast
Move 2: Draining kiss/Vacuum wave
Move 3: Calm mind
Move 4: Parting Shot/Earth power/Hp ground
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Being able to choose between going for a switch or stat boost to sweep adds versatility this cap really needs.


If not for boosting on his high special attack he could use swords dance/Hone claws and make physical sets viable as well.

Name: Physical pivot
Move 1: Play rough
Move 2: Fire punch/Ice punch/Thunder punch/Focus punch/Dynamic punch
Move 3: Swords Dance/Hone claws
Move 4: Parting Shot
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Fairly straight forward, it uses play rough for stab, and a punch move of your choice for coverage. You can run focus punch if you want to really punish switches, or dynamic punch to confuse if you're running hone claws.

The problem with these sets is that if we give CAP boosting moves, it wouldn't use parting shot, it would just boost.

 

[snake]

Play Rough: Why not? Revenankh and Tornadus-T take more damage from this move rather than others. Also can be useful to revenge kill come low health pokemon like Colossoil or Malaconda without lowering the defences with Close Combat
Knock Off: The problem with this move is that allow CAP22 to remove some important items from its counters (most important is Scarf from Mollux and Plasmanta) that can enter on its STABs
Encore: I find this move redundant with Parting Shot, since both the cases of being locked or having its Atk/SpA lowered will probably end in a switch
Spikes / Moonlight: No problem with this moves
Reflect / Light Screen: I really like the idea of a dual screen moveset supported with Parting Shot

Charm / Feather Dance: Good way to contrast Sword Dance users
Snarl: Not sure if this move will be used often, but it's good since can be used with Natural Cure, without the fear of being taunted

U-turn / Volt Switch / Baton Pass: Absolutely NO. Same motivations of snake

Giga Drain: If Energy ball and Grass Knot will be allowed, why not? Lower damage, but it compensates the Life Orb recoil

Also I don't agree with snake decision to ban Healing Wish / Lunar Dance : not only can be really useful for the team, but can be used both in the attacking set and in the bulkier set

Name: Parting Healer
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Aura Sphere / Focus Blast
Move 3: Parting Shot
Move 4: Healing Wish / Lunar Dance
Ability: Natural Cure / Aroma Veil
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Not Sure if Close Combat can be useful on this set...

Name: Full Support (Based of Memento set)
Move 1: Reflect
Move 2: Light Screen
Move 3: Parting Shot
Move 4: Healing Wish / Lunar Dance
Ability: Aroma Veil
Item: Light Clay
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Atk / 220 Spe
Nature: Timid

Speed is enough to outspeed Scarf Magnezone, but you can change it depending on what you want to outpace.

Flargliklarfglik Boosting moves are anti-concept because they favor the use of offensive moves instead of Parting Shot.

Even though Healing Wish kills off the user, it still gains momentum, which is a distraction from Parting Shot. The same applies to Memento, which I forgot about earlier.

WTF... This thread has been closed for submissions 90% of the time... Let me guess you've just forgotten to update this?

Can I still bring up calm mind?

Having a calm mind set would allow you to play mind games, boosting instead of just switching like everyone expects... This thing is going to be very predictable with the current movesets.

Name: Boosting shots
Move 1: Aura Sphere/Moonblast
Move 2: Draining kiss/Vacuum wave
Move 3: Calm mind
Move 4: Parting Shot/Earth power/Hp ground
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Being able to choose between going for a switch or stat boost to sweep adds versatility this cap really needs.


If not for boosting on his high special attack he could use swords dance/Hone claws and make physical sets viable as well.

Name: Physical pivot
Move 1: Play rough
Move 2: Fire punch/Ice punch/Thunder punch/Focus punch/Dynamic punch
Move 3: Swords Dance/Hone claws
Move 4: Parting Shot
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Fairly straight forward, it uses play rough for stab, and a punch move of your choice for coverage. You can run focus punch if you want to really punish switches, or dynamic punch to confuse if you're running hone claws.

Honestly since you're bringing up so many moves at the end, you really need to justify having them. Boosting moves encourage CAP22 to stay in, so I don't think these are pro-concept. Also, we decided on not to have Ground-type coverage outside of Hidden Power. I am also against Vacuum Wave, as it lets CAP22 outspeed and KO weakened Bullet Punchers before they can hit CAP22.

Giga Drain is theoretically going to be up against the STAB Draining Kiss and Drain Punch, and provides a coverage for Ground/Water, without increasing threat against Poison, but at the expense of losing a STAB against a Dragon (not that CAP22 can do anything against a defensive Latias-M anyway even with a Draining Kiss).

Drain Punch has higher power (112.5), while Draining Kiss has a higher heal rate (75 Power, 75% Healing), for 56.25% Healed on either, compared to 37.5% damage dealt. I don't see a problem with allowing Giga Drain personally, but I don't see it as a particularly competitive option. It also provides coverage for water which in the OP, coverage for Water (and Rock, although Fighting STAB covers that) is "not allowed" (although of course, with only 75 Base Power, and no

If you're interested in Healing, what about a Rest/Talk? It eats up two slots, plus one for Parting Shot. That then leaves room for something like something like Spikes or one of the Screens, or a more offensively minded ability (one of the aforementioned healing attacks possibly).

It's not going to be its best option; however, we have Grass-type coverage among our sets, so we might as well discuss it. Draining Kiss is too weak for CAP22 to use effectively; even if it heals CAP22 a lot, it just doesn't do enough damage. CAP22 also has too low of an Attack stat to use Drain Punch effectively.

CAP22 doesn't have the bulk to run RestTalk. If anything, it'd run Rest and clear the Sleep status with Natural Cure (like Shaymin did in UU).

 

[Alfalfa]

I am not going to spend this point re-iterating the reasoning I used before regarding how Spikes affects CAP 22's checks but Deck Knight I would strongly consider questioning the reason you are using behind the move. Spikes is a much better move to have than Parting Shot, and given the movepool options we are proposing to give our CAP (Sludge Wave, Taunt, Moonlight), it is not that weak of an assumption to think our CAP will be more focused on Spikes by Parting Shot. I know you reason that a number of our checks and counters are not affected by them, but Spikes is a very good move in general and stacking access to that move with one of the most potent offensive typings in the metagame pushes this thing to becoming one of the strongest Spikers in the tier rather than a mon defined by the use of Parting Shot. We have already been extremely generous in the strengths we have given CAP 22, and giving it Spikes is pushing it way out over the edge.

 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Bughouse; aren't we meant to threaten Dark types anyway? Sableye and Colossoil are on our threatlist.

Looking at the damage vs Stratagem;
- Stratagem = 43.4-51.4% Damage with Life Orb/Earth Power or Energy Ball
- Drain Punch = 76-90.6% Damage with Life Orb/58.5-69.7% without Life Orb (4 Att EV's); Heals 121-145HP with Life Orb/93-111HP without Life Orb
- Giga Drain = 81.9-96.2% Damage with Life Orb/62.9-74.1% without Life Orb (252 SpA EV's); Heals 131-154HP with Life Orb/100-118HP without Life Orb

vs Tyranitar Dragon Dance = 2HKO's from +1 Stone Edge or +1 Ice Punch after Sandstream Damage, without Life Orb (CAP22 Outspeeds +1 Dragon Dance with 232 or more Speed Investment); (none Mega)
- Drain Punch = 73.3-86.8% Damage with Life Orb/56.3-66.8% without Life Orb (4 Att EV's); Heals 124-148HP with Life Orb/95-113HP without Life Orb
- Giga Drain = 33.4-39.5% Damage with Life Orb/25.8-30.4% without Life Orb (252 SpA EV's); Heals 56-67HP with Life Orb/44-51HP without Life Orb
- Draining Kiss = 32.8-39.5% Damage with Life Orb/25.2-30.4% without Life Orb; 0 HP Healed; Heals 83-101HP with Life Orb/64-77HP without Life Orb
- Tyranitar +1 DD = 59.5-70.2% Damage with Ice Punch (252 Att, no Life Orb)

Of course, you've also got other things to consider such as Mega Tyranitar with 150 Def, and what with the higher Special Attack Investment can do Ground Types like Colossoil, ability to take on Water types like say Krilowatt, at the expense of having to use another move slot to counter Contrary Serperior, or a Ferrothorn without a Fighting attack.

Edit, snake_rattler; fair point on lacking the bulk. The idea behind Rest Talk was to Rest up and heal, talk to have a chance of Parting Shot to sack the opponents stats, before bringing in your next member having scouted the target. With the use of one of the three Healing moves discussed so far, it can give it a decent chance of surviving, and you can always switch if the Draining Move is walled against.

 

[david0895]

Even though Healing Wish kills off the user, it still gains momentum, which is a distraction from Parting Shot. The same applies to Memento, which I forgot about earlier.

You're right: it gains momentum, but only once. Parting Shot, instead, can be used several times without particular problems.

P.S.: Memento is the name of the set, but the move is not used (probably is not allowed)

 

[Alfalfa]

Play Rough - I do not see the point of this move when the only physical attack our CAP should need is Close Combat. There is no harm to adding it, but STAB Moonblast is noticeably stronger, meaning our CAP is going to be relying on that much more often. If Deck Knight wants to slate it, I do not mind him adding it, I just hope he is not expecting much from this...
Knock Off - This messes with our checks and counters too much, as some have said before. Some of our checks are a lot easier to pressure with their item removed, especially mons that rely on their Choice Scarf to beat CAP 22. Knock Off in general is a really good utility move, and impeding our check's ability to check us with the strengths we already have is a lot to ask for.
I should also ask everybody this question: what is stopping CAP 22 from running a 4 Attacks set with Knock Off as the fourth attack? Being able to remove an opponent's item with a 97.5 base power move is enough for CAP 22 to consider going mixed, especially when mons like Kitsunoh and Jirachi are really going to be bothered by it. Yes, it would help CAP 22 break through Chansey, but Taunt is already slated and that already messes with Chansey a lot, even if our Fighting STAB is usually going to be specially-based.

Encore - Encore in general is giving a lot to this CAP. The ability to lock an opponent into a move is a great asset, especially when the mon we are giving it to has one of the better offensive typings in the game. Just like Spikes, CAP 22 would much rather prefer 3 Attacks + Encore rather than Encore + Parting Shot because of how much mileage you can get out of a utility move like Encore.
Spikes - I have already stated my concerns with Spikes; just scroll up by about 2-3 posts to see why we should not have it.
Moonlight - Reliable recovery is taking the strengths of CAP 22 to an extreme, especially in a metagame where sand is not that common. 8 PP will usually last long enough in a match except in hard stall matches, and 3 Attacks + reliable recovery is an asset that a vast number of Pokemon would love to be able to have as an option.
Light Screen / Reflect - Dual Screens + Parting Shot is a strong combo, and I doubt that CAP 22 is going to run only one screen as a utility move unless its movepool is extremely barren. I do not mind these being slated, for having a move to pivot out is a particularly desirable asset for a Dual Screens to have. Add a resistance to Stealth Rock and good speed, and this certainly would be a decent option where you can expect Parting Shot to be ran.

Charm/Feather Dance/Snarl - I am just going to group these moves together because they essentially follow the same premise. Simply put, these moves are gimmicks at best and are not going to see legitimate use. I know Deck Knight posted a set and gave it strong reasoning, but in most cases I do not see why CAP 22 would try running that set when it can get more mileage out of running more consistent moves. There is no harm to adding these moves, but I do not see any circumstance in which CAP 22 would want to run them.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

Play Rough
I think this is a move that doesn't do much by adding it, but we might as well. Perhaps if people feel like doing more damage to Revenankh pre-BulkUp, they could use it, but Moonblast is generally stronger in almost all scenarios I can think of.
Knock Off
Definetly not. This screws up our threatlist as we have lots of item-reliant Pokemon on the list, as well as several Psychic types. It would be too good of a move for general usage to allow the CAP to possess it.
Encore
I do not believe we should have Encore. Yawn is already a way of phazing the opponent out; if we give it another option that is generally more deadly as it prevents setup in any way, it could cause our CAP to be overly useful. Many players would run Encore over Taunt I believe as a well-predicted Encore into the likes of Stealth Rock can be extremely gamechanging.
Spikes
I somewhat do not think we should have spikes. Most of the points have been stated already against it, but it would be interesting to see how our CAP would play when using a Spikes set. I am pretty much neutral on this move.
Moonlight
No. Just no. Reliable recovery, with Parting Shot, with great STAB moves, with high speed stats? This is not a smart combination if we would like to avoid our CAP becoming overcentralized or overpowered.
Light Screen / Reflect
I would say give CAP22 one but not the other. If you provide both, the set will be forced to become (Moonblast / Light Screen / Reflect / Partingshot/Aura Sphere), forcing CAP22 to forfeit either Parting Shot or a STAB move. If we only provide one screen, it will not mess with the sets too much. I personally believe that Light Screen would be the better option as I feel it doesn't cause as many issues within our threatlist.
Charm/Feather Dance/Snarl
Nope. We should encourage our CAP to lower stats using Parting Shot, not by using other moves. Besides, I feel CAP22 would rather use other status moves like Taunt compared to a stat move.
U-turn/Volt Switch/Baton Pass
Once again no. We need to encourage the use of Parting Shot to pivot, which provides pretty much just as much utility in switching. Since we have Aroma Veil to dodge Taunt, U-Turn and Volt Switch are not as useful. Baton Pass could be nice if we gave it a small stat boosting move that wouldn't be too generally useful for the CAP like Agility or Sharpen, but is overall not really necessary.

 

[Project_Mars]

Play Rough: As has been mentioned many times before, there isnt really any way to justify it. Given that PS'mon is basically a Pillow Fighter, it could make sense from a flavor standpoint, but there isn't a way to justify it competitively.

Knock Off: So is it mostly Scarfers that are messed up by it, or are there any other Checks that would have issues without an item/taking a Knock Off? And how many scarfers are we generally threatened by in the sense that they aren't 2HKO'd by PS'mon's attacks and can Knock it out before it can knock them out, assuming they take an attack switching in? I think the impact, and yes I do agree it will have an impact, is a little exaggerated tbh, and want some clarity.

Encore: I don't really see it having a ton of use to be honest. I can't think of what kinds of moves it would generally want to encore or what it could force out with this.

Spikes: Fast taunt and Spikes would make for a neat lead option, and parting shot could still find a way onto the set unless you really need both STABs to function. If it does need both STABs, then I will not support Spikes, since it is then a pretty heavy distraction from the intended concept.

Moonlight: Reliable Recovery doesn't seem like a good idea at all. Since it takes a turn to activate and can be passed to teammates, Wish does have synergy with Parting Shot since it can be used when an opponent switches out. While I do agree with the assessment that it will probably not always run a set with Parting Shot, I do not believe we should deliberately make a set that works without Parting Shot (outside of more obvious Specs/Scarf options) to keep the focus more on the move.

Light Screen/Reflect: I do agree that it should probably be kept to one of the two screens, and that Light Screen would probably work better than Reflect.

Stat lowering moves: I think some issues would arise from some checks coming in at -1 to an attacking stat, and do not see a reason to go wit these.

U-Turn/Volt Switch/Baton Pass: Definitely would clash with our intended design. Definitely not.

 

[Flargliklarfglik]

The problem with these sets is that if we give CAP boosting moves, it wouldn't use parting shot, it would just boost.

Yea, because everything that has boosting options always boosts... Why am I always getting this response... so what you're saying is you get put up against a check or counter, you'll boost? I find that hard to believe, and if you do it just means you're a really bad player... People who boost every pokemon irregardless of their enemies lose, and people who use parting shots every two turns will lose...

 

[Alfalfa]

Light Screen / Reflect
I would say give CAP22 one but not the other. If you provide both, the set will be forced to become (Moonblast / Light Screen / Reflect / Partingshot/Aura Sphere), forcing CAP22 to forfeit either Parting Shot or a STAB move. If we only provide one screen, it will not mess with the sets too much. I personally believe that Light Screen would be the better option as I feel it doesn't cause as many issues within our threatlist.

That is not how Screens works. Offensive Dual Screens is not an ideal way to running screens, for running EVs in offenses rather than defenses makes getting up screens more difficult; the screen set would be Moonblast / Screens / Parting Shot. Our CAP, as a Screens user, has the advantage of Aroma Veil, resistance to Stealth Rock, and the ability to outspeed most of the unboosted metagame. Screens encourages the use of Parting Shot by using it as a way to pivot out of an opponent and gain momentum immediately after you set up both screens. Using only one screen often does not work that consistently, unless you are using Reflect solely to cushion Pursuit (ie defensive Cresselia). If we include one screen, then we include the other.