CAP 24 CAP 24 - Part 7 - Base Stat Submissions

[reachzero]

The time for stats has arrived! We will begin by discussing base stat limits for CAP 24. This will play a major role in determining the effectiveness of CAP 24, and how well it handles the threats and counters we determined in the previous stage.

The BSR calculator can be found here: https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B0yPinDCLshXUERRd0IyVUxjS1U

Below is a brief explanation of what stat limits are. This is mandatory reading for all users looking to participate in discussion of stats. This explanation is borrowed from previous processes, but updated.

About Stat Limits

These limits will help to define what we consider when making and talking about stat spreads for CAP 24. We will look at limits to CAP 24's physical and special attacking prowess, its physical and special tanking capabilities, and the overall power of its stats.



This is a relatively tricky aspect of the process if you're not familiar with what it is we're doing and why we're doing it. For that reason, I strongly encourage those who intend to participate to read the entire OP thoroughly and ask questions where needed.



Be forewarned that there is no poll for this stage of the CAP. After gauging intellligent community consensus, the Stats Leader will decide the stat limits for the CAP upon consultation with the TL and TLT.



Stat Bias Limits



Stat bias limits set the general stat bias of a Pokemon from an offensive and defensive standpoint. Stat biases are not solely for limiting stats, but they also describe the overall build of the Pokemon in offensive and defensive terms. However, the stat spread is the only part of the project that will be constrained by Stat Bias Limits. There will be four stat biases selected and a total Base Stat Rating (BSR) limit. The Stat Biases are:



Physical Tankiness (PT)

The rating of the Pokémon's physical defense.

Physical Sweepiness (PS)

The rating of the Pokémon's physical offense.

Special Tankiness (ST)

The rating of the Pokémon's special defense.

Special Sweepiness (SS)

The rating of the Pokémon's special offense



If you don't have a spreadsheet program, OpenOffice is free.



If you're a newer member of CAP, we highly recommend that you do some good lurking during this stage in the process. Read this page thoroughly to understand what exactly we're doing here. If you're still confused, check out some of the old Stat Limits Discussion threads for past CAPs in the CAP Process Archive. If you're still uncomfortable with posting here, then I suggest you watch how experienced users post; you can learn a lot from them!

Once discussion has arrived at a broad consensus, the Stats Leader, in consultation with the TL and the TLT, will decide on and announce our Base Stat Limits.

Please do not submit any stat spreads at this time. The time for that will come after Base Stat Limits are set.

Here are some discussion questions to start us off:

1. In light of CAP 24's typing and threat list, should CAP 24 be oriented toward physical attacking, special attacking, or mixed attacking?

2. Does CAP 24 have different statistical needs in terms of Sun team and Sand teams, or will its role be similar in both?

3. Is CAP 24 most likely to operate as an offensive threat (like Tapu Koko) a defensive threat (like Ferrothorn) or a combination (like Assault Vest Tapu Bulu)?

4. What statistical trends of Pokemon in the USUM CAP metagame should inform our idea of a successful stat spread?


- - - - -



CAP 24 so far:


Topic Leader: Drapionswing


Topic Leadership Team:

SHSP: Typing Leader

Drew: Ability Leader

reachzero: Stats Leader

mxmts: Movepool Leader


Concept

• Name - Snow or Shine (or Sand)
• Description - A Pokemon that abuses 2 weather conditions for different effects
• Justification - Currently in CAP, there is only one form of weather that is really worth using: rain, and only one really type of weather abuser: offensive sweeper. This concept means to address both of these issues by creating a new niche for two weather conditions. This concept would fill the archetype of a weather abuser, but I feel it also fits into the Actualization category as it would also aim to create a new role for a weather abuser for 1 or more different weather conditions.
• Questions To Be Answered
• • Why are hail, sun, and sand underrepresented in the current metagame?
  • What makes rain the best weather condition currently?
  • How can this CAP encourage the use of other weather conditions? What do hail, sun, and/or sand need? Sweepers? Setters? Walls?
  • What weather effects are underutilized? How can we successfully use these effects?
  • How can one Pokemon utilize different weather conditions for different effects and sets?
  • Should this Pokemon be able to function outside of weather-based teams? If so, what niche would it need to fulfill? If it sets it's own weather, is it enough to abuse the weather condition on its own?
• Explanation - For those who don't fully see how a not-sweeper weather abuser could work, take Lileep in LC for example. Lileep, mainly back in BW and XY as sand is quite uncommon in SM, is on most sand teams, as it can abuse its Rock-typing to boost Special Defense, the passive damage from sand, and its access to Recover and Toxic to become a weather abusing wall. Another possible interaction would be running Ferrothorn on rain teams to semi-nullify its Fire weakness. Not only typings are underexplored though! There are many moves, items, and of course abilities that can be used to abuse different weather conditions in a way that no Pokemon really does currently.

Typing: Grass/Fairy

Pokemon we want to beat:

Sun:
Heatran, Crawdaunt, Latios, Mega Latios, Pajantom, Zygarde,

Sand:
Heatran, Landorus-T, Tapu Bulu, Tomohawk


Pokemon we want to pressure/threaten:
Mega Mawille, Cawmodore, Ash Greninja, Kartana, Marowak-Alola, Celesteela

Pokemon we want to check Cap24:
Fire-Types: Volcarona, Marowak-Alola, Pyroak(Sand), Blacephalon, Victini
Steel Types: Mega Scizor, Excadrill, Magearna(Sand)
Poison Types: Plasmanta, Mollux, Crucibelle, Mega Crucibelle, Toxapex, Mega Venusaur(Sun)
Priority Users: Kitsunoh, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Syclant, Cawmodore
Other: Mega Alakazam, Hawlucha

Pokemon we want to counter Cap24:
Mega Venusaur(Sand)
Mega Charizard Y
Pyroak(Sun)
Chansey

Abilities: Drought/Trace

 

[SunshineFuture]

We need to go Special one hundred percent. As I have mentioned before, Tomohawk and Landorus-Therian are both on our threatlist, are the most used Pokémon in the meta and give physical attackers a much harder time than they do Special. Landoge has Intimidate for crying out loud!

Onto the harder questions, I think in general we should have similar roles in weather, but with a few differences. For example, while both would like a good amount of power (be it in stats or elsewhere), Sun would like more speed than Sand would like to help address speed control concerns (Most likely in range of a viable but not main Scarf set at a minimum). Meanwhile, Sand would prefer decent bulk to help switch into things that typically give Sand a hard time, such as Ash Greninja and Celesteela. I think our spread needs to find a balance between these two aspects to suit both weather’s needs while still having a viable spread.

I think we should work as a combination, although slightly more offensively oriented. Think of how Gliscor can run offensive sets or defensive sets while maintaining slight elements of the other (moreso on Offense because of Pheal but you get the idea). I do believe our stats should have enough power and speed to handle what we need to threaten (within reason, so we’re fine with being slower than AshGren and even Kartana), but we should absolutely avoid making what essentially would be a Pheromosa (in the sense of a lot of power and speed but no bulk whatsoever).

 

[TKGriffiths]

1) Certainly needs to be a special attacker.

2) It will be something like a bulky attacker on both. Sun will likely pump EVs into SpAtk to best exploit the boosted moves enabled by Drought, while Sand will likely look to invest in HP to utilize its defensive typing (and potential Traced defensive abilities) as more of a glue pokemon.

3) A combination as outlined above. It should have enough base SpAtk to be utilized as a wallbreaker, while also having enough bulk to become a defensive pokemon with investment.

4) Lando-T and Heatran would be good models for stat distribution. Most often seen as defensive/utility pokemon that hit hard without investment due to naturally high attacking stats. While also capable of fully offensive threats, their movepool limits them from often turning their hand to that role. Their 'middling' speed stats are also quite instructive for the roles we want CAP to perform.

 

[K. Roolest Shark]

1. In light of CAP 24's typing and threat list, should CAP 24 be oriented toward physical attacking, special attacking, or mixed attacking?

Special as it allows it to have an easier time against mons we want to beat against. Physical gives it a harder time against mons like Landorus or Tomohawk as shown in these calcs.
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Bulu Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 218-257 (52.6 - 62%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Bulu Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 109-130 (28.5 - 34%) -- 98.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Bulu Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 109-130 (28.5 - 34%) -- 98.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Meanwhile on the side of Special:
252+ SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 502-593 (121.2 - 143.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 253-298 (66.2 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 239-282 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 320-376 (83.7 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

2. Does CAP 24 have different statistical needs in terms of Sun team and Sand teams, or will its role be similar in both?

Sun and Sand want CAP 24 to be offensive in battle and it does require the same stats for it to go for offensive in both sides of weather for it to gain an effective offensive threat.

3. Is CAP 24 most likely to operate as an offensive threat (like Tapu Koko) a defensive threat (like Ferrothorn) or a combination (like Assault Vest Tapu Bulu)?

CAP 24 is mainly centered around weathers which cannot go for defensive threat due to the timer of turns on which the weather stays in. It should go for offense so it can efficiently use both of the weathers to its advantage effectively.

 

[david0895]

1. In light of CAP 24's typing and threat list, should CAP 24 be oriented toward physical attacking, special attacking, or mixed attacking?

Most of the threatlist are weak to special attacks, especially Landorus-T, Tomohawk and Celesteela that can stop both sun and sand very easily

2. Does CAP 24 have different statistical needs in terms of Sun team and Sand teams, or will its role be similar in both?

While sun needs to remove more offensive stuff, sand wants to remove bulky threats that can survive to one hit.
Also there are some threats that are very fast like Ash-Greninja or Mega Latios, that probably will outspeed CAP24
So we have to combine the necessity to do high damage with the ability to survive an hit (or two at max but I don't think there is a real necessity of this).

3. Is CAP 24 most likely to operate as an offensive threat (like Tapu Koko) a defensive threat (like Ferrothorn) or a combination (like Assault Vest Tapu Bulu)?

While I said that CAP24 needs to survive an attack, the tank option probably is not a good way, since it has to be checked by super effective priority attacks, so the offensive option seems to be the best way for it

 

[snake]

1. In light of CAP 24's typing and threat list, should CAP 24 be oriented toward physical attacking, special attacking, or mixed attacking?

Special attacking all the way. We have to break through Tomohawk and Landorus-T for sand, preserve Chansey as a counter, etc. If we're building a wallbreaking core with Drought CAP24, we shouldn't overwhelm special walls with very strong physical attacks.

2. Does CAP 24 have different statistical needs in terms of Sun team and Sand teams, or will its role be similar in both?

At this point, not really. CAP24 needs to act like a tanky wallbreaker. More on this in the next question.

3. Is CAP 24 most likely to operate as an offensive threat (like Tapu Koko) a defensive threat (like Ferrothorn) or a combination (like Assault Vest Tapu Bulu)?

CAP24 needs to be a combination of both offensive and defensive, with a little more bias to towards offensive. We want to wallbreak, but at the same time, we want to abuse boosted recovery from sand and tank hits from Greninja-Ash / pre-transformation Greninja, at least tank a defensive Tomohawk's Air Slash, not get take too much from Landorus-T, etc. Basically, more like Swords Dance Tapu Bulu except a little faster, a little less bulky, and a little less offense. That makes me think of a "tanky wallbreaker."

 

[Mx]

1. In light of CAP 24's typing and threat list, should CAP 24 be oriented toward physical attacking, special attacking, or mixed attacking?

CAP 24 should definitely be specially oriented, that would make beating physical walls like Tomohawk and Landorus-T much more easier. Having a viable Attack stat might be possible, as long as long as our Special Attack stat is clearly the superior one, but I think that is highly unnecessary, and could end up being distracting later. Therefore I'm inclined to think we should be exclusively a special attacker.

2. Does CAP 24 have different statistical needs in terms of Sun team and Sand teams, or will its role be similar in both?

I think that, at least in theory, Sand teams could use CAP 24 more defensively, to take advantage of the fact that there, CAP 24 would be more willingly to tank weak Fire moves and to cover their weakness to Water-types, while Sun teams would rather have a faster and harder-hitting spread, to better take advantage of our third pseudo-STAB. However, I don't think this generate that much of a dichotomy on our stats, and it shouldn't be too hard to cover the demands of both, and in the end I expect CAP 24 role to be similar on both weathers.

4. What statistical trends of Pokemon in the USUM CAP metagame should inform our idea of a successful stat spread?

I think that looking at others stats spreads might not be that great of an idea. If we look purely at the base stats of most OU mons, they would suggest that we need an amazing spread to even stand a chance in this meta, however this ignores the fact that we have Drought, arguably one of the best abilities in the game, and something we should be very careful to balance. We should look more at the spreads of other weather setter to compare them to CAP 24, and to learn what makes them good or bad.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

1. In light of CAP 24's typing and threat list, should CAP 24 be oriented toward physical attacking, special attacking, or mixed attacking?

Special attacking is definetely the orientation that we should be leaning towards. A number of big kahunas of CAP, most notably Landorus-Therian and Tomohawk, are much more physically bulky than specially, and breaking through them would become much more difficult for our concept if we ended up lining up physically. We also have to maintain Chansey as a full blown counter, so keeping special makes it easier to do this. Finally, going mixed will result in a much weaker mon overall, considering that the numerous other criteria that we have to fulfill (being able to take a hit or two from super-effective stuff and being somewhat fast to outspeed stuff) could mean that we have to put less actual offensive stats into our PS and SS before we hit the limits, which makes it harder to punch through stuff. Special just generally makes more sense.

2. Does CAP 24 have different statistical needs in terms of Sun team and Sand teams, or will its role be similar in both?

Generally, CAP24 should have the same stats needed, perhaps with just a little more Speed investment for the speed control aspect of Sun. Both need to break through a number of different pokemon, so they really shouldn't differ offensively.

3. Is CAP 24 most likely to operate as an offensive threat (like Tapu Koko) a defensive threat (like Ferrothorn) or a combination (like Assault Vest Tapu Bulu)?

While it should be able to set up Sun effectively and be able to take hits well enough, I think the best route is something more aligned to Tapu Koko and more offensive stuff. We are specializing in taking down a lot of different mons, and quite a few of them can (and will) kill us with their sheer type advantage, so being slower than them will not help, no matter how much tanky or bulky we may be while doing it. So being able to kill them before we kill us is essential to CAP24 success in these weathers, and I think that being an offensive mon is the most reliable and efficient way to achieve that.

 

[NumberCruncher]

1. In light of CAP 24's typing and threat list, should CAP 24 be oriented toward physical attacking, special attacking, or mixed attacking?
As everyone else pointed out, most of the mons we're trying to beat are monstrous physical walls. Unless we're willing to give out nutty levels of power to this CAP, special should be our method of attack

2. Does CAP 24 have different statistical needs in terms of Sun team and Sand teams, or will its role be similar in both?
For Sun we need to be mindful of our Speed stat, given that we're likely going to end up Choice Scarfed thanks to the lack of hard-hitting fast mons on that team. Given that in Sand CAP is supposed to be a wallbreaker that doesn't break Chansey, I'd probably shy away for having Substitutes that survive Seismic Toss.

3. Is CAP 24 most likely to operate as an offensive threat (like Tapu Koko) a defensive threat (like Ferrothorn) or a combination (like Assault Vest Tapu Bulu)?
We're probably looking at a fast offensive threat along the vein of Tapu Koko. Our typing combination is terrible defensively, and most of the mons we want to pressure out hit like a jackhammer. Even with good bulk, we probably won't take hits well at all, so we should focus on our offensive pressence.

4. What statistical trends of Pokemon in the USUM CAP metagame should inform our idea of a successful stat spread?
Most of the successful Special Attackers in the tier have between 110 and 135 Special Attack, so we should probably think along this range. The Speed tiers from about 100 to 114 is pretty jam-packed as well. For mons doing a similar thing to us, I would look at the likes of Protean Greninja and Kerfluffle.

 

[SunshineFuture]

Everyone seems to forget two things.
1. Having a lot of speed makes it harder for us to lose to Blacephalon, meaning our coverage is restricted once more.
2. Having a Koko spread would result in us getting completely destroyed by Ash Greninja’s Hydro Pump on Trace sets.

Furthermore, the problem with Zardy as a sun setter aside from the quad rock weakness is that it often is too fragile to come in repeatedly to put the sun up. Malaconda’s problem is that basically has to always U-turn out. If we want to be a good sun setter, we should strive to be somewhere in the middle. Think Heatran, but trade a bit of bulk for a speed stat that can be scarfed well (think 95-98 range, although if you want to be conservative, 92 for Lando). Something like 90/90/90 bulk is good enough. Frankly having good bulk, 110+ speed and power teeters on slightly broken levels and adds to about 580 BST, which I cannot see happening.

 

[david0895]

Everyone seems to forget two things.
2. Having a Koko spread would result in us getting completely destroyed by Ash Greninja’s Hydro Pump on Trace sets.

While I agree with this, an offensive threat doesn't necessarly have a Koko spread (for example Keldeo has a respectable 91/90/90 bulk).
Yes, I said that CAP24 needs to tank an hit from Celesteela and Ashninja, but remember that it still needs to be checked from priority users and if they fail to OHKO it, they will be melted by the Fire coverage (or HP Fire if not allowed)

 

[reachzero]

1. This has been sufficiently answered to the point where we can make a statement of consensus. CAP 24 will be a special attacker.

2. I feel that this CAP will probably invest its EVs differently on Sand as opposed to Sun. Sand is more likely to want CAP 24 for the quality of its defensive typing, and therefore elect for bulkier sets. Sun is more likely to elect for a simple max speed, max SpA spread. I feel it would be a good idea to keep our stats relatively versatile, as opposed to optimized for one specific EV spread.

3. I feel that “bulky attacker” is a good model to follow for versatility’s sake: Heatran, Zygarde and Zapdos each exemplify this model, and each has multiple effective EV spreads applied to different purposes. This doesn't always mean middling speed, since higher natural speed could mean fewer speed EVs required, freedom to use +SpA nature, etc. If other qualities are desired. It does mean that I would like for our defenses to be at least acceptable, and preferably actually good.

4. More than ever, everything about stats rides on start distribution. Toxapex has very low stats, while Kartana has incredibly imbalanced stats. I didn't think either would be very good before XY started, but they have each process that where our stats go is a big question--the base 600s that have 100 in each stat are k so much worse than those that have stats targeted toward their specific purpose.

I’d also like to introduce a new question, one by new to the Stats Stage.

5. Weight is an important competitive aspect of this CAP. CAP 24 is weak to Heavy Slam and resistant to Grass Knot and Low Kick. Considering the importance of weight in the relationship of this Pokemon to Celesteela, which weight bracket is most appropriate (not necessarily “most optimal”) for CAP 24?

 

[Dogfish44]

5. Weight is an important competitive aspect of this CAP. CAP 24 is weak to Heavy Slam and resistant to Grass Knot and Low Kick. Considering the importance of weight in the relationship of this Pokemon to Celesteela, which weight bracket is most appropriate (not necessarily “most optimal”) for CAP 24?

With Celesteela being a lovely thin 999.9kg, if we want to get Heavy Slam below 120 BAP, we're gonna need to have GK/LK hitting us at 120 (Celesteela's Heavy Slam drops to 100 BAP at 200.0 kg, which is the same point that we see GK/LK just hit 120). In fact, to quickly plot it out;

120 BAP: 0.1 kg - 199.9 kg
100 BAP: 200.0 kg - 249.9 kg
80 BAP: 250.0 kg - 333.2 kg
60 BAP: 333.3 kg - 499.9 kg
40 BAP: 500 kg - 999.9 kg

80 BAP might stretch up to 333.3 it depends on if GF uses *1/3 or *0.3333

So, unless we're deciding that resisted moves are going to be a big threat, weight is how we manipulate Celesteela's strength against us (to a certain point - Flamethrower Celesteela is also a thing). Anywhere from 40 BAP to 80 BAP shouldn't pose a signifigant threat, so I think we can realistically reckon a 250+ kg weight, and then adjust depending on the needs of the set (A set that has a lower Def may want access to a higher weight, and a set with a lot of Def may not particularly care one way or t'other).

 

[NumberCruncher]

5. I'd probably aim for 60 base power from Celesteela's Heavy Slam, so anywhere from 333.3 kg to 499.8 kg should be good.

 

[SunshineFuture]

While I agree with this, an offensive threat doesn't necessarly have a Koko spread (for example Keldeo has a respectable 91/90/90 bulk).
Yes, I said that CAP24 needs to tank an hit from Celesteela and Ashninja, but remember that it still needs to be checked from priority users and if they fail to OHKO it, they will be melted by the Fire coverage (or HP Fire if not allowed)

The difference between MScizor and Celesteela is that MScizor can viably run Attack investment and/or SD to power up Bullet Punch.
64+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def CAP24: 234-276 (70.6 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is off of 95/90 bulk. As you can see, MScizor still checks us. Meanwhile, Celesteela does considerably less damage with even a base 60 Heavy Slam.
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def CAP24: 144-170 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- 55.1% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

For the new question, I'm with Dogfish44 on this one. I do think we should only do 80 BP Heavy Slam if we have a lot of Defense, but 60 is perfectly acceptable, as shown by the calc above. Anything above 80 spells doom for us, frankly.

For stat lines, I agree with reachzero. We need to give stats that have a purpose for their values, not just generically good numbers. Using what Mew does as an example, a revised spread would take out of attacking stats and speed and pump it into HP and defenses. The spread would be very inbalanced, but Mew would arguably do a much better job at what it does in the meta.

 

[EpicUmbreon29]

5. Weight is an important competitive aspect of this CAP. CAP 24 is weak to Heavy Slam and resistant to Grass Knot and Low Kick. Considering the importance of weight in the relationship of this Pokemon to Celesteela, which weight bracket is most appropriate (not necessarily “most optimal”) for CAP 24?

Seeing as Low Kick and Grass Knot are fairly inconsequential thanks to CAP24's typing, I would agree with NumberCruncher and Dogfish44 with weakening Celesteela's Heavy Slam. I feel that we should ideally make Heavy Slam 60 Base Power or less. Most of the Pokemon that we wish to beat or pressure which are physical attackers are either slower than we presumably wish to be (e.g. Marowak-A, Mega Mawile) or have STAB that we resist (e.g. Zygarde, Tapu Bulu, Landorus-T if it isn't running SSSS). By lessening the amount of Physical Tankiness that we would be obligated to put on CAP24 just to let it get past Celesteela, we would be better able to invest in its Special Tankiness to help it out in its matchups against Heatran and Tomohawk, as well as helping some of the physical attackers that we want to check us remain potent enough to do so (e.g. Mega Scizor, Kitsunoh, Excadrill, Magearna with Iron Head).

 

[Mx]

5. Honestly, I can't see any good reason to want anything less than 500 kg for CAP 24. According to our threatlist, we should be able to beat Celesteela even on Sand, so it would only make sense to optimize our weight to reduce the power of Heavy Slam. The only other competive uses of Weight would be to reduce the damage from Low Kick/Grass Knot (and we already resist both) and against Naviathan (who iirc is not on our threatlist).

 

[david0895]

5. Weight is an important competitive aspect of this CAP. CAP 24 is weak to Heavy Slam and resistant to Grass Knot and Low Kick. Considering the importance of weight in the relationship of this Pokemon to Celesteela, which weight bracket is most appropriate (not necessarily “most optimal”) for CAP 24?

I think that 60 is a good value that will help CAP24 to survive an hit (anyway this will drastically change the art sunmission)

The difference between MScizor and Celesteela is that MScizor can viably run Attack investment and/or SD to power up Bullet Punch.
64+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def CAP24: 234-276 (70.6 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is off of 95/90 bulk. As you can see, MScizor still checks us. Meanwhile, Celesteela does considerably less damage with even a base 60 Heavy Slam.
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def CAP24: 144-170 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- 55.1% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

I don't get your point on this: even with rocks, MScizor fails to OHKO it and dies to an every Fire move (even HP Fire), so it has to wait that CAP24 is chipped enough to check it, and this applies to all the other priority users that must check it

 

[snake]

5. Weight is an important competitive aspect of this CAP. CAP 24 is weak to Heavy Slam and resistant to Grass Knot and Low Kick. Considering the importance of weight in the relationship of this Pokemon to Celesteela, which weight bracket is most appropriate (not necessarily “most optimal”) for CAP 24?

It's really hard to weigh in without knowing the actual HP / Def / SpD stats for CAP24. In my opinion, stat submissions should include weight tailored specifically for that spread. That way each submission has the control it wants over the Celesteela match up.

Since Low Kick is barely relevant (the only decent user is Crucibelle, and it has Gunk Shot) and we're going to have at least good Special Defense for Choice Specs Greninja, Heavy Slam from Celesteela (and to an extent from Naviathan) is the only thing we really have to worry about. imo Heavy Slam should be a 3HKO at least from Celesteela.

 

[Pipotchi]

3. Is CAP 24 most likely to operate as an offensive threat (like Tapu Koko) a defensive threat (like Ferrothorn) or a combination (like Assault Vest Tapu Bulu)?

It would be best if this can operate as a combination of offensive and defensive, Tapus are a great example of what this design should turn out to be. Sun needs a setter that can be the core of the team and switch into various attacks for its teammates, and Sand also uses its defensive strength to apply pressure and hopefully hit hard.

Talking about roles though, it might make sense for this mon to be able to run a fully defensive spread alongside more offensive or scarfed options so we can cover everything in our counter list. Hopefully this isnt stepping too fast, but Im really questioning this- How can this mon beat Pajantom for Sun while also underspeeding the crucial base 100 speed mons in our counter and check lists (ZardY, Victini, Volcarona, Plasmanta). If we go past 100 speed, ZardY becomes a much less reliable answer since it becomes unable to switch in and roost first/attack first after rocks, removing it from our counter list. Volcarona will similarly lose every time if rocks are up/ CAP uses a rock-type move if CAP naturally outspeeds, Plasmanta gets bopped by CAP switching moves to HP Ground, and Victini will fear a rock type move also with rocks up.

Pajantom is hitting us with an atk stat of 133 and its most spammable move is neutral- Spirit Shackle. So we need to be worried about taking a potential Spirit Shackle into Z-Shackle or a Spirit Shackle into Brave Bird. There's no way that'll work if this mon is only aiming to run a 252 Spa 252 Speed set and for it to also be able to be checked by priority, so I think it would be a really good idea if this mon can run some kind of fully defensive spread that allows this, as well as perhaps aiming to take a +2 Bloom Doom from Bulu in Sand where a fire move might not be a guaranteed KO, and a +2 Continental Crush from Lando for the same reason. I dont think an offensive set should take these, but it would perhaps be beneficial to have the option of running a defensive CAP (which can be fitting to the needs of the team anyway, and still provide the threat of setting weather and hitting hard) in particular to allow this mon to beat Pajantom, and not with the solution of scarfing it. (I dont think this mon should be relying on Scarf as its main set due to its STAB coverage and constant need to use non-STAB to deal with the important threats to the discussed teammates- not to mention its inability to ohko Pajanton that willl ohko back on the next turn)

 

[SunshineFuture]

To Pajantom, I think we should have enough speed to where a Scarf set could beat Pajantom. I think it shouldn’t be the main set by a long shot (even in Sun), but keeping a Scarf set possible (but not amazing) could give flexibility. Said set would beat Pajantom with Moonblast. While Zardy and Volc aren’t super reliable checks to a Scarf set, they can easily take advantage of being locked into a different move and come in for free. Even if they lose to Scarf, it isn’t like Scarf would be the best set (a lot of things can come in on the right move, and the likely power we are going to land is not Blace level), so they would likely still be decent counterplay to us in sun with any other set.

 

[reachzero]

Now that we have idea as to the general shape of what we are looking for, a versatile stat spread with room for both offensive and defensive use, we should look carefully at the boundaries that will form the basis of our base stat limits--the important question of "how far would be too far". This points us to the question,

6. At what statistical benchmarks would CAP 24 become clearly overbearing, especially considering its theat list?

For instance, at base 150 SpA, CAP 24 with Life Orb would 2HKO Plasmanta nearly 100% of the time after Stealth Rock with resisted Moonblast, removing Plasmanta as a check in all but the most pedantic definition. This means that base 150 SpA is too high for CAP 24, particularly if it is faster than Plasmanta--of course, that would be an SS of 241, just between Mega Lucario and Darkrai, so we could have guessed that. Keep in mind that base stat limits do not account for raw stats, only for combinations of stats--the SS limit, for instance, has to account for the fact that 110 SpA/110 Speed is approximately equivalent to 140 SpA/84 Speed, but those two play very differently in practice. This question is asking about individual stats that create problems.

In addition, CAP 24 will have a minimum weight of 334 KG, with no maximum. Each stat submission must include whether CAP 24 is in the 40 or 60 base power range for Celesteela's Heavy Slam, left to the discretion of the submitter.

 

[NumberCruncher]

As I said before, we no longer get countered by Chansey if we have 100 or more base Health, so that should be avoided.

As far as Stat limits are concerned, we should probably aim for below 197 SS. That's the point where we get sets that are either so fast that we go from pressuring Ash-Gren to being a hard counter to it pre-Battle Bond or hit hard enough to 2HKO Pyroak with any decent Fire coverage.

Having more than 120 PS also seems undesirable. We've already identified that the mons we want to beat are physical tanks and the mons we want to wall us are special tanks. At 120 PS, CAP could decide to use a mixed set to help break down our checks (110 tends to be around the range that mixing to break down checks occurs, as seen on Tyranitar and Garchomp for SS).

At 180 PT, it becomes difficult for the Steel type priority mons like Kitsunoh and defensive Mega-Scizor, even if our only Fire moves ends up being HP Fire. Note, we probably want to edge pretty closely to this maximum, because we mostly want to switch into physical mons.

I'm not sure where the top limit to ST should be. I know that at 207 we can live through Charizards Drought-boosted Fire moves if we pack Assault Vest, but that seems needlessly high given that we only actually need 140 ST to take the hits we want to take from Greninja or Blacephalon choiced into the wrong move, and, we probably want more PT than ST anyway given what we want to beat. I'm going to tentatively say 180 ST as a maimum on this as well

BSR shouldn't really be any higher than 340 BSR. We're skirting very close to too many of the maximums set on the other set biases, and that's resulted in fairly broken CAPs in the past.

 

[Drapionswing]

As far as SS is concerned I think a good SS limit would be 190, that way it would allow any creative stat spread variants while also preventing any unorthodox spreads which would be outside of the scope of this project (I hope). This ideally reaches a speed max of around 123 which is faster than Greninja, allowing us to check it ever so effectively on sand teams.

PS is a less of a concern and I don't think any spread that is consistent with this process will be able to abuse this stat, therefore I think a PS of 135 should be allowed and welcomed, with the acknowledgement that spreads that abuse this will not be slated.

ST limits should probably be around 185, that way I think offensive sets will be able to handle Greninja decently well and to achieve this I think a ST limit of 185 would be efficient. All in all I'm expecting this CAP to have well rounded stats as we have a very universal list of pokemon we want to challenge due to the nature of our concept.

This is my thoughts for now, however this is always susceptible to change due to discussion later on in the thread!

 

[david0895]

I have done some defensive calcs, and I think of having reached the peak at a 90/90/130 (PT 138, ST 201):

stuff

252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 296-350 (92.2 - 109%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Pyroak Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 134-158 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- 79.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 264-312 (82.2 - 97.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Victini Searing Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 326-386 (101.5 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 294-348 (91.5 - 108.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Magearna Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 182-216 (56.6 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 147-174 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 342-404 (106.5 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

All of these mons barely get the OHKO or 2HKO so we shouldn't exceed (or even reach) these numbers