CAP 24 CAP 24 - Part 9 - Moveset Discussion

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#1
While art is being decided we will be proceeding with the movesets stage of this CAP, part of movepool! mxmts will be your topic leader for this stage, so pay close attention to him!

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In this stage, we are determining the required and disallowed competitive moves by creating a list of approved movesets. The movesets will be decided based on the competitive needs and limitations of this project. We are not submitting full movepools at this time. There will be a later stage for movepool submissions (level-up sets, egg moves, etc) once the required and disallowed moves have been determined via the accepted movesets.

Moveset Discussion Rules & Guidelines

There should be four kinds of posts in the thread:
  • Moveset Submissions
  • Moveset Edits/Option Submissions
  • General Commentary
  • Section Leader/Topic Leader Announcements/Updates
This means that no moves can be suggested or commented on unless they are part of a full competitive moveset submission or suggested as a additional option for one or more previous movesets. Any recommendations to disallow certain moves should only be in reference to moves contained in previously posted movesets.

The general flow of this thread should go like this:
  1. People post moveset submissions in a prescribed format (see below)
  2. Other people suggest to add/remove moves or other options to previously posted movesets (see below)
  3. Other people propose edits to the descriptive information with previously posted movesets
  4. Other people comment on the competitive pros and cons of previously posted movesets, additions/removals, and proposed edits
  5. Continuously over the course of the thread, the movepool leader updates the first post in the thread with the "currently accepted" movesets and other information related to the status of the intelligent community consensus (see below)

By the end of this discussion thread, we should have the following outputs:
  • The top post in the thread (maintained by the Movepool Leader) will contain a list of all edited, approved movesets
  • The top post will list controversial movesets and/or optional moves that need to be voted on by the community

Prohibited Moves:
Legendary Signature Moves are banned from discussion unless one (or more) is specifically allowed by the combined consensus of the TL and the Movepool Leader. The following moves are considered Legendary Signatures:

Aeroblast
Blue Flare
Bolt Strike
Crush Grip
Core Enforcer
Dark Void
Diamond Storm
Doom Desire
Dragon Ascent
Fleur Cannon
Freeze Shock
Fusion Bolt
Fusion Flare
Geomancy
Glaciate
Heart Swap
Hyperspace Fury
Hyperspace Hole
Ice Burn
Judgement
Land's Wrath
Light of Ruin
Lunar Dance
Luster Purge
Magma Storm
Mist Ball
Moongeist Beam
Oblivion Wing
Origin Pulse
Precipice Blades
Prismatic Laser
Psycho Boost
Psystrike
Relic Song
Roar of Time
Sacred Fire
Searing Shot
Secret Sword
Seed Flare
Shadow Force
Spacial Rend
Spectral Thief
Steam Eruption
Sunsteel Strike
Techno Blast
Thousand Arrows
Thousand Waves
V-Create


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Moveset Submissions

Movesets should be posted in the following format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Ice Beam
Move 4: Earth Power / Energy Ball
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest / Timid
  • Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
  • Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut very hard.
  • Ice Beam complements Thunderbolt very well, allowing it to hit Ground-types like Zygarde.
  • Earth Power lets CAP X hit Heatran and Mollux very hard, while Energy Ball lets it hit Gastrodon and Mega Swampert harder.
  • Sheer Force powers up CAP X's main moves.
  • Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
  • Modest is preferred for more power, but Timid can be used to outspeed base 81s like Gyarados and Necturna before boosting.

Code:
[B]Moveset Submission[/B]

Name:
Move 1:
Move 2:
Move 3:
Move 4:
Ability: (optional)
Item: (optional)
EVs: (optional)
Nature: (optional)
[LIST]
[*]
[*]
[*]
[/LIST]
Please keep to the above format so the movepool leader can easily see which posts in the thread are proposing new moveset submissions, and can easily locate the information when updating the top post in the thread.

Ability, Item, EVs, and Nature are optional. All that is required are four moves, a name, and some descriptive information (in bullet form).

Any suggested moveset posted without any reasonable description will be deleted by the moderators. People should not spam movesets, post without checking the movesets already submitted, or post movesets without thinking them through.

Although we are not posting movesets in the full C&C analysis format, you should generally adhere to C&C standards where it makes sense. While there will not be excessively strict moderation on this, use common sense. Don't get too slash-happy with moves, no stupid names, use proper spelling and grammar, etc. These movesets will be put on the CAP subsite immediately at the end of the CAP for the playtest.

If you are unsure of the optimal ability, item, EVs, or nature -- you can leave it out and it can be edited in later over the course of the thread. By the end of the thread, every accepted moveset should be filled in completely. That doesn't mean we need to be 100% sure of every aspect of the moveset. It's fine if we go with our best guess and leave it to the playtest to optimize it.


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Moveset Edits/Option Submissions

Edits/options should be made by copying the most recent version of the moveset and description into an unattributed quote tags ([ QUOTE][ /QUOTE]). Then make any edits, additions, or replacements in bold text, removals should be in strike-through text. The most recent copy should taken from the top post or from the original submission post, depending on whichever one is most current.

Posters can and should comment on the reasoning and background for any proposed edits outside of Quote tags. Simple wording or spelling corrections do not need any explanation or commentary.

Additional move proposals must be made in the context of one or more movesets. The user cannot simply post "I suggest we add Taunt as an option to all non-choiced movesets", for example.


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Movepool Leader/Topic Leader Posts

The first post under the OP is reserved by the Movepool Leader, and will serve as the reference post for the current status of the discussion.

When the Movepool Leader determines that a moveset, option, or edit is accepted by intelligent community consensus, they will add/update a list of "Approved Movesets" in the first post. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add every submission to the first post automatically, simply because it was posted in the thread. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add a submission to the first post if it was not actively accepted by intelligent community consensus. "Lack of any response" is not the same as "acceptance". As with all CAP discussion threads, the leader should always use their best judgement.

If a proposal has received significant intelligent feedback (positive or negative), but it has not yet reached consensus, the Movepool leader should add it to an "Under Consideration" list in the first post. If the thread ends with controversial items that can't reach consensus, they will go to a community poll. In most cases, the "Under Consideration" list should be comprised of full movesets or additional option proposals. Edits to the description of most movesets, probably will not require extensive discussion or polling.

As the Movepool Leader makes updates to the first post, they should also post announcements in the thread indicating what they have added or updated. This will allow active discussion participants to easily track the progress of the thread. The Topic Leader should also post regular feedback in the thread, like every other competitive discussion.

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CAP 24 So far:

Topic Leader: Drapionswing

Topic Leadership Team:
SHSP
: Typing Leader
Drew: Ability Leader
reachzero: Stats Leader
mxmts: Movepool Leader

Concept:
Drew said:
  • Name - Snow or Shine (or Sand)
  • Description - A Pokemon that abuses 2 weather conditions for different effects
  • Justification - Currently in CAP, there is only one form of weather that is really worth using: rain, and only one really type of weather abuser: offensive sweeper. This concept means to address both of these issues by creating a new niche for two weather conditions. This concept would fill the archetype of a weather abuser, but I feel it also fits into the Actualization category as it would also aim to create a new role for a weather abuser for 1 or more different weather conditions.
  • Questions To Be Answered
    • Why are hail, sun, and sand underrepresented in the current metagame?
    • What makes rain the best weather condition currently?
    • How can this CAP encourage the use of other weather conditions? What do hail, sun, and/or sand need? Sweepers? Setters? Walls?
    • What weather effects are underutilized? How can we successfully use these effects?
    • How can one Pokemon utilize different weather conditions for different effects and sets?
    • Should this Pokemon be able to function outside of weather-based teams? If so, what niche would it need to fulfill? If it sets it's own weather, is it enough to abuse the weather condition on its own?
  • Explanation - For those who don't fully see how a not-sweeper weather abuser could work, take Lileep in LC for example. Lileep, mainly back in BW and XY as sand is quite uncommon in SM, is on most sand teams, as it can abuse its Rock-typing to boost Special Defense, the passive damage from sand, and its access to Recover and Toxic to become a weather abusing wall. Another possible interaction would be running Ferrothorn on rain teams to semi-nullify its Fire weakness. Not only typings are underexplored though! There are many moves, items, and of course abilities that can be used to abuse different weather conditions in a way that no Pokemon really does currently.
Threatlist said:
Pokemon we want to beat:

Sun:
Heatran, Crawdaunt, Latios, Mega Latios, Pajantom, Zygarde,

Sand:
Heatran, Landorus-T, Tapu Bulu, Tomohawk


Pokemon we want to pressure/threaten:
Mega Mawille, Cawmodore, Ash Greninja, Kartana, Marowak-Alola, Celesteela

Pokemon we want to check Cap24:
Fire-Types: Volcarona, Marowak-Alola, Pyroak(Sand), Blacephalon, Victini
Steel Types: Mega Scizor, Excadrill, Magearna(Sand)
Poison Types: Plasmanta, Mollux, Crucibelle, Mega Crucibelle, Toxapex, Mega Venusaur(Sun)
Priority Users: Kitsunoh, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Syclant, Cawmodore
Other: Mega Alakazam, Hawlucha

Pokemon we want to counter Cap24:
Mega Venusaur(Sand)
Mega Charizard Y
Pyroak(Sun)
Chansey
Typing: Grass/Fairy
Abilities: Drought/Trace
Stats: 92 HP / 63 Atk / 97 Def / 124 SpA / 104 SpD / 96 Spe

Weight: ≥500 kg
 

Mx

formerly mxmts
is a CAP Contributor
#2
Name: Offensive Drought Setter
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: [Fire Coverage] / Hidden Power Ground / Focus Blast
Move 3: [Fire Coverage] / Hidden Power Ground / Focus Blast
Move 4: Synthesis / Healing Wish
Ability: Drought
Item: Fightinium Z / Life Orb / Heat Rock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Name: Grassium Z
Move 1: Solar Beam / Leaf Storm
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: [Fire Coverage] / Hidden Power Ground / Focus Blast
Move 4: Synthesis / Shore Up
Ability: Drought / Trace
Item: Grassium Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
Nature: Modest

Name: Choice Scarf
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: [Fire Coverage] / Hidden Power Ground / Focus Blast
Move 3: [Fire Coverage] / Hidden Power Ground / Focus Blast
Move 4: Solar Beam / Leaf Storm
Ability: Drought / Trace
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Name: Utility
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: [Fire Coverage] / Hidden Power Ground / Focus Blast
Move 3: Wish / Healing Wish / Light Screen
Move 4: Shore up / Synthesis
Ability: Trace / Drought
Item: Leftovers / Heat Rock / Fightinium-Z
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Name: Choice Specs
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: [Fire Coverage] / Hidden Power Ground / Focus Blast
Move 3: [Fire Coverage] / Hidden Power Ground / Focus Blast
Move 4: Solar Beam / Energy Ball / Leaf Storm
Ability: Drought / Trace
Item: Choice Specs
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest
Shore Up
Synthesis
Moonblast
Focus Blast
Solar Beam
Healing Wish
Leaf Storm
Energy Ball
Wish
Light Screen
Sticky Web
Parting Shot
U-Turn
Volt Switch
Knock Off
Fiery Dance
Growth
Tail Glow
Nasty Plot
Nature Power
Stun Spore
Tailwind
Rapid Spin
Reflect
Weather Ball
Competitive (More than 60 BP) Ground, Psychic and Rock Coverage
All Fire-type moves except for Flame Burst
 
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Mx

formerly mxmts
is a CAP Contributor
#3
Hello and welcome to the final competitive stage of CAP 24. Our basic goal here will be to decide which movesets should be available for this project, and how would they fit in on Sand/Sun teams.

One of the most important things that will determine our moves is, of course, our Concept Assessment. Here you can read DrapionSwing's conclusion to the thread. As you can see, we established that we would focus on filling in the missing pieces on both weathers, which we mostly agreed that were Speed Control for Sun teams, and Wallbreaking prowess for Sand teams. We also decided that we will not focus on stalling tactics, as they don't usually work on weather, thanks to the limited turns available, and that CAP 24 should still have a niche outside of dedicated weather teams.

Another key aspect will be our threatlist. This is the final version of it, as decided on the Counter thread. For reference, here are the most important things to take away from it:

-CAP 24 should beat Heatran, Landorus-T and Tapu Bulu.
-CAP 24 should be able to pressure Celesteela, M-Mawile and A-Marowak.
-CAP 24 should be checked by Fire and Poison-types.
-CAP 24 should be countered by M-Charizard-Y, Chansey, Pyroak (On Sun) and M-Venusaur (On Sand).


As usual, before jumping to moveset submissions, I would like to ask a few question with the intention of guiding the discussion on the right direction:

1) Based on our selected stats and abilities, what kind of roles would CAP 24 have on Sun/Sand teams?

2) In which ways should CAP 24's movesets complement pre-existing weather abusers?

3) Should we focus more on one particular weather, or should both recieve the same amount of attention during this stage?


Please try to address this questions on your posts, and remember to not discuss particular moves/movesets yet. Now, let's begin!
 
#4
1) Based on our selected stats and abilities, what kind of roles would CAP 24 have on Sun/Sand teams?

Drought clearly helps the wallbreaker role, while Trace is more dedicated to checking or even countering certain ability users like Intimidate Landorus-T or Flash Fire Heatran.
The stats favor a bulky wallbreaker set, but the speed is enough to make a cleaner set with a Choice Scarf

2) In which ways should CAP 24's movesets complement pre-existing weather abusers?

Since weather turns are limited, a pivot move will complement very well with its abuser

3) Should we focus more on one particular weather, or should both recieve the same amount of attention during this stage?


Sun probably needs more attention, since has no particular usage at the moment
 
#5
1) Based on our selected stats and abilities, what kind of roles would CAP 24 have on Sun/Sand teams?

CAP24 should be carving its own niche as a self-abuser of Sun and as the central pokemon in the Sun team. This means it will spend a lot of time in the match being active, rather than hiding in the back as just a fringe sweeper. For Sand, it has more of a side role, supporting the key pokemon that make Sand "worth" running which is Tyranitar and Excadrill.

2) In which ways should CAP 24's movesets complement pre-existing weather abusers?

Imo this is more relevant to Sand where CAP has been created with more of a supportive role in mind. CAP should hopefully punish answers to Sand and ideally deter their switch-ins due to the danger of us taking their ability and using it to countersweep or cause huge problems.
Some examples might be having a moveset that abuses Beast Boost taken from Sand counters like Celesteela and Kartana, and turning that into a sweep by including a move that boosts our own average speed (replicating an autotomize celesteela almost).
Another example would be abusing Flash Fire from Heatran to not only wall it but then threaten the switchins with devastating Fire coverage alongside the additional difficulty in knocking us out thanks to the fire immunity.
Last example would be to have a set-up move that abuses our general ability to get free switches from weakening the offensive threat from Heatran, Landorus, etc.

Here is the point where I want to say something about pivoting moves.
I dont think pivoting moves are the solution to complementing the members of the weather teams. we want to be checked by a lot of Fire types, mega evolutions and Chansey, all of which have the common element of being worn down easily- fire types by Stealth rock and Chansey/Megas through lack of leftovers- mega venusaur even gets recovery dropped in Sand. If we are able to switch around fairly mindlessly our checks are going to get worn down so easily- it is possible to double switch on prediction but pivoting removes the need for prediction while still providing the useful benefit of setting weather- its always beneficial. Furthermore, most of our intended teammates are not precious sweepers that require hp preservation or to avoid status in order to set up successfully- and we allow them to switch in due to the excellent synergy between typings- CAP24 switches out very easily into Heatran which covers every single one of its weaknesses, or Tyranitar which covers almost every Poison-type, without needing a U-turn. The benefit of pivoting for this CAP would be less to assist the team achieve its weather-related goals and more about it breaking down its own counters, which I dont think we should be doing. We also do not need to preserve Sun turns thanks to our teammates being wallbreakers- they need a single turn of Sun to leave some lasting damage, unlike a Venusaur for instance that needs several turns to keep its speed up. Volt Switch also gives us an excellent move to smack Megazard and ohko it after rocks, which is totally against the concept. This mon can assist the sweep of teammates also with moves such as Stun Spore or Defog which also help fit the roles of Speed Control or preserving teammates HP.

The benefits of pivoting is that Trace will give us the ability to force out certain Pokemon like Landorus-T and Heatran. It also allows us to get in our Sun abusers. Hopefully the stuff I have written above gives us examples of other ways that we are abusing Heatran, Landorus-T rather than pivoting on them (setup, powerful fire coverage, removal of rocks for instance) and also explains why u-turn is not a necessity to allow this Pokemon to mesh well with the pokemon on a Sun team.


Regarding Sun, I think CAP24 has a lot of freedom here and doesnt need to cater too heavily to "existing" Sun mons since there aren't any, Sun isnt an existing playstyle. We definitely want to have the option of switching in and taking hits often to cover the defensive failings of Fire types, so recovery is essential whichever direction we intend to go in.

3) Should we focus more on one particular weather, or should both recieve the same amount of attention during this stage?

I think this is where Sand needs the most attention and help. We already have a successful Sun abuser thanks to the ability vote with some very simple STAB moves and coverage added to it- a Fighting type attack to hit Heatran and a Fire move to abuse Sun. We dont yet have a Sand element incorporated into our design and here is where we either succeed or fail in making this Pokemon fit that part of the concept imo. We cant just tack on Shore Up and call it a day.
 
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#6
I honestly think that no matter what, we should be using that Special Attack stat we have there. I think going passive on any set would just frankly be a waste of weather and abilities. However, I think there should be a difference between how we use CAP24 in Sun versus Sand. We should invest in Speed when we are in the sun and invest in bulk for the sand. Drought, in combination with our Fairy type and speed tier, is likely best used as a more offensive ability. As such, investing in Speed for the sun seems reasonable. Heck, a Scarf set is partially why we have so much speed! As for Trace and sand, it is naturally the more defensive ability, tracing things like Flash Fire and Prankster, to name a few. Furthermore, things that beat Sand typically run moves that are SE against us (Flamethrower and HP Ice especially). As such, it makes more sense to run bulk on sand sets.

As for what to do in terms of moves themselves, the main test any proposal around this topic has to take is Celesteela. That's why there are two moves that we should pick one of. In order to reasonably beat Celesteela without Z moves (Which I think is crucial that we do), we must either obtain Fire Blast OR Calm Mind. We can do a less powerful Fire-type move and pair it with Life Orb, but frankly I do not see that being realistic unless a flavor ability is somehow Overcoat. Alternatively, we can do something like Heat Wave + Calm Mind, but that isn't quite needed, because with us being immune to Leech Seed, taking nothing from Flamethrower at +1 (0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD CAP24: 90-106 (23.1 - 27.3%) -- 55.6% chance to 4HKO [EVs I believe are pretty rational for investing bulk into Sand]) and not worrying a second about Heavy Slam, we can basically endlessly set up on Celesteela until we can kill it or it switches into something else, by which point we'll have at least one boost up. Both options reliably 2HKO (252 SpA Abomasnow Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 198-234 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery [Notice how there are not rocks up]), so either one could work. I personally prefer Calm Mind, due to the fact that it handles Steela slightly better than a Fire-type move, but I think we would win over Celesteela either way.
 

Deck Knight

CAP Triple Crown
is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
#7
1) Based on our selected stats and abilities, what kind of roles would CAP 24 have on Sun/Sand teams?


CAP has the advantage of outspeeding a number of very threatening Pokemon like Colossoil / Volkraken, so it has a number of potentially viable sets that take advantage of both its bulk and its speed. For Sun, Drought allows CAP to have a Pelipper-like role as an offensive pivot that can also provide some support, though CAP is obviously much, much more threatening than Pelipper.

2) In which ways should CAP 24's movesets complement pre-existing weather abusers?

As it stands, Sun CAP has Mega Charizard Y, Malaconda, and in theory Mega Houndoom which has a very attractive speed tier for CAP, but a lot of trouble getting in because it doesn't get the defense boosts until it Megas. CAP also has much better synergy with Mega Houndoom's type than Mega Charizard Y's, seeing as Mega Houndoom uses both of its STABs fully.

Sand is more difficult because it consists primarily of a physical wall with recovery (Hippo), a physical attacker / special tank (Tyranitar), and a physical sweeper (Excadrill). CAP's type does work exceptionally well with most of these Pokemon, usually sharing only one weakness in common with each (Fire with Exca, Ice with Hippo, Steel with Tyranitar) while resisting Grass, Water, Ground, and Fighting attacks that plague Sand's threats. Unfortunately Sand doesn't have anything like an emergent special attacking threat (contrast any physical Fire type can abuse Sun somewhat), so that kind of offense will likely fall on CAP. Alakazam, Reuniclus, and Krilowatt can play in Sand thanks to Magic Guard, but don't complement CAP or existing Sand particularly well.

3) Should we focus more on one particular weather, or should both recieve the same amount of attention during this stage?

We should have at least one dedicated Sun set and Sand set, if for no reason other that to explore those options fully and fulfill the concept. Anything beyond those two main sets (which might lean heavily Sun just based on Drought) will fall where they may,
 
#8
We cant just tack on Shore Up and call it a day.
I’m confused. What else could we do to abuse Sand with moves aside from Shore Up/Weather Ball? I bet I’m missing something, but still.

As for pivoting, I think that we could have U-Turn, but I don’t think we NEED U-Turn. I’m against it kind of (Pip makes a good point but idk), but I want people to not think that U-Turn is an absolute must. I’m not even certain about the Mega Houndoom use, because Mala can pivot with Drought already, but MHoundoom is still where it is.

I think that we shouldn’t work ourselves up about having more sets for one weather or the other. I think what we should do is try to make Sun and Sand sets both be viable, not a whole lot more on one end than the other.
 

snake_rattler

CAP23 Topic Leader, Pun-isher of Evil
is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
#9
1) Based on our selected stats and abilities, what kind of roles would CAP 24 have on Sun/Sand teams?
2) In which ways should CAP 24's movesets complement pre-existing weather abusers?


While this answer won't exactly answer this question directly, I think Assault Vest sets are very possible with this CAP, even though Giga Drain will be nowhere near strong as Tapu Bulu's terrain-boosted Horn Leech. If CAP24 were to have access to moves like Rapid Spin or Nuzzle, it would boost the viability of such a set, as it would be able to have some utility outside of having higher special bulk. Both would these would help slower, Fire-type Sun-based teammates, as Rapid Spin would get rid of hazards, and Nuzzle would slow down opponents. Basically, if we can encourage Assault Vest-based sets with utility, I think CAP24 has a better chance of running a max HP / max SpA pivot set, rather than just max offense sets and defensive sets. Remember that it takes significant investment to reach the KOs that CAp24 wants to hit, so a middle-ground option of offensive and defensive potential would be an ideal set.

Pivoting with U-turn would be very powerful on a Pokemon that can actually force switches, unlike Malaconda. However, I think that might be going a little too far with CAP24 with such a reliable pivot move. If we're able to just pivot out of Chansey into Heatran for free with little risk involved, that might prove too great of a strain on counterplay for CAP24. If CAP24 wants to gain momentum, it shouldn't be through U-turn, Volt Switch, or Parting Shot. A more appealing option is Healing Wish for CAP24, which I think will be useful for offensively inclined weather teams. Healing Wish is high risk, high reward move (unlike U-turn, a low risk, high reward move) that must be well-timed. Momentum through Healing Wish I could definitely get behind, but U-turn, not so much.
 
#10
1) Based on our selected stats and abilities, what kind of roles would CAP 24 have on Sun/Sand teams?

I like the idea of CAP 24 being an offensive pivot central to Sun teams - like a Sun Pelliper, as Doug said. I agree that pivoting moves are pretty unnecessary. Much of CAP 24's pivoting can and should be done on its great typing and bulk. Switching in and out to activate either of CAP24's abilities is important to getting the most out of it. However, I could see U-turn being too much momentum to handle. Healing wish is an interesting idea, but maybe shouldn't be central to CAP24's movepool. With as much attacking power as it has, I wouldn't want to waste a valuable coverage slot on Healing Wish, which can be very risky and hard to pull off.

Sun support/util could also fill a niche. Nuzzle (suggested above) would be a great option IMO. It hits the speed control Sun needs and might fit in an Assault Vest set. Utility options would be extremely valuable with CAP 24's speed and bulk, while still being able to hit hard with 1-2 main attacks.

I also like Shore Up in theory, but with as much bulk as CAP24 has I'm not sure if such reliable recovery will be overkill, or push it toward a wall-type role, which I don't think should be the aim. I'd like to hear what other people think about strong recovery moves.
 
#11
2) In which ways should CAP 24's movesets complement pre-existing weather abusers?

There are a few needs, and a few wants for Sand and Sun teams.

For starters, Sun has no real hazard control build into any of the Pokemon that would abuse it (Think Victini, Venusaur, Zard-Y), so having a move such as Defog for clearing hazards could be extremely important, if not potentially mandatory, especially considering the momentum-based nature that weather teams imply. While hazard control on Sun seems a near necessity(In my opinion), on Sand it's much more of a "want". Sure, Excadrill can Spin, but would you rather use that moveslot to set up a Swords Dance, or to merely spin away Spikes/Stealth Rock from your side of the field. Taunt could also work in this category, as you outspeed some of the slower Stealth Rock and Spikes setters, but Defog and Rapid Spin would be the most consistent means of dealing with entry hazards. Rain's Utility Pokemon, Pelliper, also uses Defog to clear our hazards for it's teammates, enabling them to care less about Priority attacks.

Secondly, if we're going any sort of Utility approach, we would want some form of recovery, or potentially two. Shore Up works well with Sand, restoring 2/3 of your health, and Synthesis doing the same for Sun. Of course, these aren't necessary, but I would personally consider both within the "wants" category, as Rain's setter, Pelliper, has recovery currently.

U-turn is another one of those "wants" moves, as what setter doesn't want to force switches and create momentum? However, I can see an easy alternative if we don't receive this move in Eject Button, so if people think that this move would be too good on CAP24, feel free to leave this out.

Tailwind is an interesting option for a more Sun-based CAP24 moveset, giving Sun teams the speed control they always desired, while not forcing bad Chlorophyll 'Mons onto teams, or running an abundance of Choice Scarfs. It functions similarly to how Swift Swim works for Rain teams, but at the cost of a moveslot over abilities instead. It would pair nicely with U-turn, giving your Pokemon 3 turns to abuse the weather, similarly to how Pelliper I would put this into the "Wants" category, as it would always be nice to have Tailwind at your disposal, however it's not necessary.

Cap24 also "wants" Weather Ball, so it can abuse a nice 100 base power Rock/Fire move, potentially being boosted by a Z-Move. However, I feel as if this isn't necessary, due to the nature of the move. For 5(Sun) or 4/3(Sand) turns you can abuse a Fire or Rock type move, but after those turns are up, you're left with a dead moveslot.

However, I draw the line with Fire-type coverage. We absolutely NEED Fire type coverage for this 'Mon to be effective. If not, you're just gimping CAP24 and preventing it from breaking many of the Pokemon that should be countered by it. This Fire Type coverage is similar to how Pelliper gets a boost to it's Hydro Pumps and Scalds under rain, transforming it from a weak, passive 'Mon to one that is now quite respected. A similar argument can be made for Sand really "wanting", and potentially even "needing" a Pokemon with Ice or Electric-type coverage to beat common threats to sand on our checklist such as Celesteela, Landorus-T and even Cawmodore, as that fills the niche of Pelliper's second STAB, Hurricane, smashing through would-be rain counters in Bulky Grass Types such as Tangrowth and Bulky Water Types such as Arghonaut.

3) Should we focus more on one particular weather, or should both recieve the same amount of attention during this stage?

It's inherently easier to provide benefits to Sun teams, as shown by the rest of my posts above. Their more clearly defined problems can be addressed easier than Sand's, Who's problems lie more in Meta Pokemon such as Tomohawk, Celesteela, Landorus and Cawmodore strait-up countering the sole abuser of the speed, Excadrill. It would be extremely hard to buff Sand with CAP24, which in my opinion, is why we need to focus more on Sand, and potentially not in a traditional sense, however that may be. However, I fear that Sun will receive more focus indirectly by providing utility to CAP24.

And to kind of tie in question 1; CAP24 could have a plethora of roles for each team, including, but not limited to: Utility Pokemon (which both teams lack, sand going so far as to use Support Ttar), Wallbreaker (more so for Sun), Bulky Pivot, Stallbreaker, and potentially even a Revenge Killer/Lategame Sweeper with a Choice Scarf set.

Even while writing this up, my options on possible movesets were constantly changing, so I recommend all of you to try to take one of my basic points and try to expand on them for the remainder of the discussion, even if it's as an afterthought, as it may end up changing yours. I tried to lay out as close to "facts" as I could while writing this, and using Meta Pokemon as examples for what they do well, and potentially what other meta Pokemon (*cough* Pelliper *cough*) do that these teams lack.

TL;DR: CAP24 Needs: Hazard Control, and a Fire-type move
CAP24 Wants: Recovery, Tailwind, a Pivot move, Weather Ball, and parts of BoltBeam coverage.
 
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reachzero

the pastor of disaster
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#12
1) Based on our selected stats and abilities, what kind of roles would CAP 24 have on Sun/Sand teams?

"Bulky Special Attacker" is a role already in high demand on Sand and fitting well with Sun. I do not believe there is any specific need for either Sand or Sun that is pressing beyond this. These teams already have access to an abundance of good Stealth Rock users, Spin/Defog users, etc.

2) In which ways should CAP 24's movesets complement pre-existing weather abusers?


If we are serious about helping Sand, we need some sort of coverage that can hit Celesteela supereffective. This could be either Fire or Electric, but it is basically mandatory to avoid being double-walled along with Excadrill. Sun basically just wants CAP 24 to be able to keep itself alive as well as possible.

3) Should we focus more on one particular weather, or should both receive the same amount of attention during this stage?


We should absolutely focus more on Sand. Sun already has everything it needs (Drought CAP 24 + Volkraken + Heatran is nasty), so long as CAP 24 gets even reasonable offensive coverage (like Weather Ball). Sand has a somewhat steeper hill to climb, and therefore deserves more attention.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Has both direction and magnitude
is a Pre-Contributor
#13
On phone, apologies in advance.

1) I generally agree with DK's interpretation as The Pelipper of the Sun, but Drought does allow us to pack a lot more heat (pun intended), meaning we can also abuse this extra power for wallbreaking possibilities while giving us speed control with an offensive archetype as well.

Trace is a little trickier for role assessment, but the thing to keep in mind is that this was picked as an ability that helps us better fight stuff on the Counters List. Intimidate can soften Lando's blows, Flash Fire stops Heatran, and we can steal Beast Boosts off of dead Celesteela, as well as heal with Prankster heals. And because most things that we will be fighting with CAP will be quite bulky, it seems to more lean towards a slightly more tanky set.

Either way, this pokemon will have primarily an offensive focus to its tactics, so keeping it with wallbreaky stuff would be great.

2) Quite a few Sun-based teammates are not exactly the toughest things out there, and also considering the heavy amount of Fire Types Sun usually contains/requires absolutely emphasizes the importance of being able to deal with incoming hazards in someway and to help get others in with as little damage as possible. Malaconda actually had the advantage as a utility sun setter as it could both SlowTurn and remove hazards for incoming allies, but considering the offensive focus I think it would be better if we were to choose one and not to dabble too much into utility stuff.

Fire coverage, based on the needs of Sand and the presense of Sun is damn near a given here, but I should probably still mention it. The mere mention of Celesteela demands some sort of coverage to be able to beat it, and there are also other Steel types in sand that desperately need the coverage, such as Mega Mawile and Exca. So being able to have some sort of coverage to kill these would be quite viable to have.

3) Sand absolutely needs the help here. Sun already has a number of really great tools and mons that can abuse it, and generally has the ability to fill up its holes with its mons. Sand doesn't exactly have that. It has a lot more pokemon that can straight up shut it down cold, and although CAP being able to halt the Waters and Grounds helps, it doesn't solve nearly all of the problems that Sand has (not that it should mind you). Sand is just the more difficult weather to use, so giving it more attention is the much better choice.
 

G-Luke

We Eat Losers
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#14
1) Based on our selected stats and abilities, what kind of roles would CAP 24 have on Sun/Sand teams?

I made the stats in a sort of way so that CAP 24 can have versatile spreads, and I can see it having Wallbreaking and Scarf sets, while some bulkier sets on Sand. I do also agree with the possibility of Assault Vest Sun / Sand sets being popular as well.

2) In which ways should CAP 24's movesets complement pre-existing weather abusers?

For Sand, It needs to able to dismantle threats like Celesteela, which hard counter most Sand core bulids. Suitable coverage moves can be discussed here, such as Fire or Electric coverage.

3) Should we focus more on one particular weather, or should both recieve the same amount of attention during this stage?


Most definately Sand. Not only has Sun been the forefront of Abilities, Sun in essence does not necessarily need much more to build a solid Sun team, while we realistically have little honest justification for using CAP 24 on Sand teams.
 

Mx

formerly mxmts
is a CAP Contributor
#15
Well, I think that we've had some interesting discussion so far, so I think it's time to move on. I am opening movesets submissions! However before that, I'd like to write some conclusions for the questions I asked at the start:

1 & 2) A lot of interesting options have been brought up about the way we should complement pre-existing weather abusers and the roles we'll take alongside them. Good coverage looks like a necessity to beat some of the threats we're supposed to, particularly Heatran and Celesteela, which would greatly help some of most important teammates such as Volkraken and Excadrill. Utility options, most notably hazard removal, have been mentioned a few times already, and I think they could provide great role compression and help CAP 24 to fit into teams much more easily, so I'd like to see more people discuss them. Finally there's pivoting moves. I think that Pipotchi made a great point in how easily they can wear down our designated checks and counters, while helping to bring in dangerous teammates for free. This leads me to conclude that these kind of moves would be unhealthy additions to CAP 24 movepool. Therefore I will add pivoting moves (U-Turn / Volt Switch / Parting Shot) to the list of banned moves

3) Most people have agreed that Sand is the one weather that we should try to support the most on this stage as the combination of Drought and very powerful pre-existing abusers like Volkraken and Heatran, while Sand on the other hand depends on much more mediocre options such as Excadrill. We will need to take this into account when considering which moves should be available for CAP 24.

Lastly, there is also a few other moves that, despite not having been discussed at all until now, I strongly believe have no place on CAP 24's movepool:

-Sticky Web: While we are supposed to offer Speed Control to Sun teams, Webs would almost certainly be too much and would easily be overwhelming when paired with stuff like Heatran and Volkraken.
-Taunt/Encore/Leech Seed: Given that Chansey is supposed to counter us, it would not make sense to give CAP 24 these moves, as they would allow us to take advantage of the blob's passive nature and beat it 1v1.
-Ground-Type /Psychic-Type Coverage: We established that Poison-Types should serve as checks to CAP 24, and these types of move would provide us with decently strong Super-effective coverage against them, while providing no real benefits against the threats that we are supposed to beat.
-Rock-Type coverage (Excepting Weather Ball) : While it not be as bad as the other banned types, Rock moves would gives us a powerful tool against Pyroak, M-Charizard-Y and Mollux, all mons that we identified as checks/counters to CAP 24.

If you believe that you have an serious argument in favor of one of the banned moves, feel free to contact me via Smogon PM, Discord or PS!, I'm always open to changing my decisions if you can properly justify your argument. Do not post in this thread about banned moves.

Well, with that out of the way, I think we can safely begin the Moveset Submission Phase. Please remember to post them using the appropiate format, and always add relevant calculations to support them.
 

snake_rattler

CAP23 Topic Leader, Pun-isher of Evil
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#16
Moveset Submission

Name: Drought Abuser
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower / Weather Ball
Move 3: Focus Blast
Move 4: Synthesis / Healing Wish
Ability: Drought
Item: Fightinium Z / Life Orb / Heat Rock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
  • Moonblast is a awesome STAB move that hits Dragon-types like Pajantom and Mega Latios super effectively, rips into Arghonaut, and generally has good coverage.
  • Flamethrower gains the boost from Sun without being overwhelming to our counters list, while Weather Ball is weather-dependent but more powerful.
  • Focus Blast hits Heatran super effectively, which would otherwise wall the set.
  • Synthesis keeps CAP24 healthy and is powered up under Sun; while Healing Wish allows CAP24 to heal up weakened teammates.
  • Life Orb allows CAP24 to hit hard, but Fightinium Z almost always lands a KO on Heatran
  • Heat Rock if you want more Sun turns for teammates
  • Standard EV spread for maximizing Speed then Special Attack
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pyroak in Sun: 201-238 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pyroak in Sun: 201-238 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega in Sun: 127-151 (34.9 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

I'm pretty convinced that Pyroak can reasonably run more specially defensive spreads to counteract CAP24's damage output, especially since the main reason Pyroak usually runs physically defensive was Mega Metagross, and there wasn't much of an incentive to change the spread. In any case, Pyroak pretty much wins if it doesn't switch into Stealth Rock + Flamethrower.

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pyroak in Sun: 222-263 (50.1 - 59.3%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega in Sun: 146-172 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- 41.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Weather Ball starts to creep in terms of power, which is interesting because that's the weather-dependent move. Nonetheless, I think Flamethrower is good because it hits Celesteela for Sand teams. Thunderbolt or other Electric-type coverage is not a good option because Mega Charizard Y is a designated counter.

As for Healing Wish, I think that this move is very good support for a Pokemon that can function well on offensively-inclined weather teams. Healing Wish Tomohawk is popular for a reason on Rain teams, and I think it's an interesting way for CAP24 to gain momentum without being stupidly easy to do as U-turn would.
 
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#17
1) Based on our selected stats and abilities, what kind of roles would CAP 24 have on Sun/Sand teams?
As far as I'm concerned, CAP24 should take the role of a special-attacking offensive 'mon be it as a wallbreaker or a secondary win condition. CAP24 has access to decent off-type damage and a lot of favourable matchups in Sand through Trace, while its power gets boosted in sun to what is essentially triple STAB. Not making the most out of those mismatches and advantages in an attempt to make CAP24 a more varied CAP would be a horrendous mistake in my opinion.

2) In which ways should CAP 24's movesets complement pre-existing weather abusers?

CAP's typing and ability already makes it answer plenty of the Pokemon that weather teams both Sand and Sun don't particularly enjoy going against. In terms of the style of moves, I think that CAP should create space for its companions to work with by generating offensive pressure instead of more utility-focused alternatives.

3) Should we focus more on one particular weather, or should both recieve the same amount of attention during this stage?

Both should receive attention, however Sand needs more from CAP24 at this point than Sun because of the power granted by high SpA and Drought. Furthermore, this stage is an excellent opportunity to make CAP24's sand abuse more overt through the utilization of moves like Shore Up that would enable it to sustain itself better in the face of sand plinks, while making items such as Life Orb more palatable.
 
#18
Moveset Submission

Name: Sun Hazard Remover
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower / Focus Blast
Move 3: Defog Rapid Spin (thanks to snake for the improvement)
Move 4: Synthesis
Ability: Drought
Item: Heat Rock / Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

  • Moonblast is a the best STAB move that can be used to hit most of its threatlist
  • Flamethrower complements Moonblast, dealing several damage to Steel-types like Celesteela, Mega Mawile and Cawmodore; Focus Blast can also hit Heatran but is less accurate
  • Rapid Spin removes the hazards on the CAP24 side of the field that can hurt its teammates
  • Synthesis gives to CAP24 a huge amount of HP under the Sun
  • Heat Rock provide more Sun turns if added with Drought
  • Life Orb raise the damage that CAP24 can deal; Leftovers helps CAP24 to stay healthy, especially under the Sand
  • Max EVs in Speed and SpA to hit most of the threats that we need to remove
Moveset Submission

Name: Sand Hazard Remover
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower
Move 3: Rapid Spin
Move 4: Shore Up
Ability: Trace
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 20 SpA / 92 SpD / 144 Spe
Nature: Timid

  • Moonblast is a the best STAB move that can be used to hit most of its threatlist
  • Flamethrower complements Moonblast, dealing a good amount of damage to Steel-types like Celesteela, Mega Mawile and Cawmodore; Focus Blast can be used if you don't want to directly deal with Heatran, but since CAP24 has not enough power to OHKO it, Heatran can Toxic it
  • Rapid Spin removes the hazards on the CAP24 side of the field that can hurt its teammates
  • Shore Up gives to CAP24 a huge amount of HP under the Sand
  • Leftovers raise the longevity of CAP24, giving it a little amount of HP every turn
  • This defensive spread allows CAP24 to take less than 50% from Air Slash Tomohawk, allowing CAP24 to recover the damage every time, even if the Sandstorm has ended
  • 144 Speed EVs allows it to outspeed Adamant Zygarde and Landorus-T; the rest of them can be moved wherever you want
Flamethrower is a good coverage against steel types that doesn't mess with our counters:

252 SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyroak in Sun: 143-169 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Abomasnow Inferno Overdrive (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyroak in Sun: 214-252 (48.3 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Abomasnow Inferno Overdrive (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 126-150 (34.7 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Both Synthesis and Shore Up fill well the concept of abusing of the weathers, giving it a very high amount of HP under them.

Rapid Spin is very useful because both of the weather teams suffer a lot from the hazards: Volkraken is weak to the rocks, the others are well chipped from Spikes since they haven't a good recovery move
 
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#19
Moveset Submission

Name: Sand Tank
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Focus Blast / Rapid Spin
Move 3: Flamethrower
Move 4: Shore Up / Hidden Power Ice
Ability: Trace
Item: Leftovers / Fightinium Z
EVs: 144 HP / 148 SpA / 216 Spe
Nature: Modest / Timid

  • Moonblast is a fantastic move all-around, especially on a Fairy-type that is as bulky as this.
  • Focus Blast nails Heatran with relative ease, who otherwise would wall this set.
  • Flamethrower beats Celesteela, Ferrothorn with extreme ease, and allows CAP24 to win 1v1 against Scizor-Mega provided that it does not come in on a Bullet Punch.
  • Shore Up allows for CAP to reliably recover and have a way to abuse the weather this set is meant to support. Furthermore, Shore Up overall increases CAP24's longevity throughout a match and greatly improves our matchup with Celesteela. Alternatively, Hidden Power Ice can be run to greatly improve the matchup against Landorus-Therian.
  • Trace allows CAP24 to switch into Heatran without any worries, barring the occasional Scarf Flash Cannon Heatran. It also lets CAP24 discourage Defensive Tomohawks from coming in, as CAP24 has reliable recovery and is faster than Tomohawk is, meaning not even other priority users can stop CAP24.
  • Leftovers negates Sand damage each turn and help reduce the amount of damage done by Pokemon like Greninja. Fightinium Z can be run instead to easily beat Heatran, even if you did not trace Flash Fire.
  • EVs boost bulk, power and speed at an equilibrium point, allowing Moonblast to OHKO Defensive Tomohawk after rocks, outspeeding Jolly Landorus-Therian (provided a Timid nature) and still more comfortably switch into Pokemon like Greninja with ease.
  • Modest nature boosts your power to make up for the unusually low investment compared to a regular set. Alternatively, Timid can be run to outspeed Pokemon like Jolly Landorus-Therian.

———————————————

Moveset Submission

Name: Sun Scarf
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower
Move 3: Focus Blast
Move 4: Healing Wish / Solar Beam
Ability: Drought
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest

  • Choice Scarf beat things that usually outspeed CAP24.
  • Moonblast is your STAB move.
  • Flamethrower and Focus Blast handle Steel-types.
  • Healing Wish lets CAP24 keep up the team's momentum. Solar Beam takes advantage of Sun for a powerful nuke.
  • EVs and nature are rather typical, increasing speed and power to the max.
————————————————

Moveset Submission

Name: Utility
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower / Focus Blast
Move 3: Rapid Spin / Healing Wish
Move 4: Shore up / Synthesis
Ability: Trace / Drought
Item: Leftovers / Heat Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

  • Moonblast is the most powerful STAB move Fairy-types usually get.
  • Flamethrower can be used to hit Celesteela, while Focus Blast can be used to hit Heatran.
  • Rapid Spin provides Sun some hazard control. Healing Wish restores a worn-down Pokemon and maintains momentum.
  • Synthesis and Shore Up give recovery depending on weather.
  • Drought is used to help support the rest of the team by being a good sun setter. If you are not running this set on a Sun team, Trace is the way to go, as it allows you to switch into things like Heatran.
  • Leftovers increases your bulk. Heat Rock can be used for extending Sun, in case you need it.
  • EVs are to maximize speed while also maximizing bulk as much as possible. Timid nature is to increase speed even further.

Might add more sets later
 
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#20
Moveset Submission

Name: Sand Tank
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Aura Sphere
Move 3: Flamethrower
Move 4: Shore Up / Ice Beam
Ability: Trace
Item: Fightinium Z / Leftovers
EVs: 144 HP / 148 SpA / 216 Spe
Nature: Modest / Calm
I like this set a lot as a straight-forward tank. I think this hits the highlights of expectations for CAP24. I like the EV spread; it outspeeds Landorus-T and helps bulk significantly. I do have a few suggestions:

I'd like to suggest Ice Beam as a niche option. The coverage overlaps with Moonblast for Dragons (Garchomp and Zygarde are still OHKOs), but Ice Beam OHKOs a huge threat in Landorus-T - preventing being OHKO'd by Flynium sets. Aside from this, Ice Beam doesn't really add any other notable KOs.
Recovery in Sand is important to offset some of the HP lost, but Shore Up AND Leftovers may be unnecessary? Shore Up can be replaced with a coverage move (Ice Beam/Weather Ball/HP Ground), or Leftovers with Fightinium.

I'm also not a fan of relying on Focus Miss if I can avoid it. Z-Aura Sphere still gets the OHKO on non-SpDef Heatran if CAP is Modest and is more reliable in general. I think it could be slashed.
 

snake_rattler

CAP23 Topic Leader, Pun-isher of Evil
is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
#21
Moveset Submission

Name: Hazard Remover
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower / Focus Blast
Move 3: Defog Rapid Spin
Move 4: Synthesis / Shore Up
Ability: Drought / Trace
Item: Heat Rock / Life Orb / Leftovers
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
Rapid Spin is better than Defog for this CAP. We'd rather keep hazards on the opposing side of the field, and Rapid Spin provides the utility that CAP24 would want for an Assault Vest set, a set that I'll work out soon.

Moveset Submission

Name: Sun Scarf
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower
Move 3: Focus Blast
Move 4: Giga Drain Solar Beam / Healing Wish / Hidden Power Ground
Ability: Drought
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest
I know you haven't filled in the description, but I'm not convinced that Giga Drain hits hard enough. Solar Beam always 2HKOes Volkraken:

252 SpA Tapu Bulu Solar Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volkraken: 190-225 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

----------

Moveset Submission

Name: Utility
Move 1: Moonblast / Flamethrower
Move 2: Flamethrower / Focus Blast / Heal Bell / Healing Wish
Move 3: Defog Rapid Spin / Heal Bell / Healing Wish
Move 4: Synthesis / Shore Up
Ability: Drought / Trace
Item: Heat Rock / Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Improved Set
Name: Utility
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower / Focus Blast
Move 3: Rapid Spin / Heal Bell / Healing Wish
Move 4: Synthesis / Shore Up
Ability: Drought / Trace
Item: Heat Rock / Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
Again, Rapid Spin > Defog. I think CAP24 will work best when it runs 2 move coverage so that it's not too passive.

I like this set a lot as a straight-forward tank. I think this hits the highlights of expectations for CAP24. I like the EV spread; it outspeeds Landorus-T and helps bulk significantly. I do have a few suggestions:

I'd like to suggest Ice Beam as a niche option. The coverage overlaps with Moonblast for Dragons (Garchomp and Zygarde are still OHKOs), but Ice Beam OHKOs a huge threat in Landorus-T - preventing being OHKO'd by Flynium sets. Aside from this, Ice Beam doesn't really add any other notable KOs.
Recovery in Sand is important to offset some of the HP lost, but Shore Up AND Leftovers may be unnecessary? Shore Up can be replaced with a coverage move (Ice Beam/Weather Ball/HP Ground), or Leftovers with Fightinium.

I'm also not a fan of relying on Focus Miss if I can avoid it. Z-Aura Sphere still gets the OHKO on non-SpDef Heatran if CAP is Modest and is more reliable in general. I think it could be slashed.
If you're confident in Z-Aura Sphere, why aren't you confident in Z-Focus Blast?

Also, Z-Aura Sphere doesn't always get the OHKO with the spread provided.
148+ SpA Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 388-458 (100.5 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
148+ SpA Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 328-386 (84.9 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Not sure if Ice Beam is really necessary, but it doesn't exactly cause problems. Not sure about it.
 
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#22
I like this set a lot as a straight-forward tank. I think this hits the highlights of expectations for CAP24. I like the EV spread; it outspeeds Landorus-T and helps bulk significantly. I do have a few suggestions:

I'd like to suggest Ice Beam as a niche option. The coverage overlaps with Moonblast for Dragons (Garchomp and Zygarde are still OHKOs), but Ice Beam OHKOs a huge threat in Landorus-T - preventing being OHKO'd by Flynium sets. Aside from this, Ice Beam doesn't really add any other notable KOs.
Recovery in Sand is important to offset some of the HP lost, but Shore Up AND Leftovers may be unnecessary? Shore Up can be replaced with a coverage move (Ice Beam/Weather Ball/HP Ground), or Leftovers with Fightinium.

I'm also not a fan of relying on Focus Miss if I can avoid it. Z-Aura Sphere still gets the OHKO on non-SpDef Heatran if CAP is Modest and is more reliable in general. I think it could be slashed.
Rapid Spin is better than Defog for this CAP. We'd rather keep hazards on the opposing side of the field, and Rapid Spin provides the utility that CAP24 would want for an Assault Vest set, a set that I'll work out soon.



I know you haven't filled in the description, but I'm not convinced that Giga Drain hits hard enough. Solar Beam always 2HKOes Volkraken:

252 SpA Tapu Bulu Solar Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volkraken: 190-225 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

----------



Again, Rapid Spin > Defog. I think CAP24 will work best when it runs 2 move coverage so that it's not too passive.



If you're confident in Z-Aura Sphere, why aren't you confident in Z-Focus Blast?

Also, Z-Aura Sphere doesn't always get the OHKO with the spread provided.
148+ SpA Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 388-458 (100.5 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
148+ SpA Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 328-386 (84.9 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Not sure if Ice Beam is really necessary, but it doesn't exactly cause problems. Not sure about it.
Aura Sphere can be slashed with Focus Blast on everything, I guess. Doesn’t do any harm. Focus Blast is perfectly fine though. For Ice Beam, I’m not certain. I’ll do some calcs when I’m not on mobile, lol. Depending on calcs, I might slash Ice Beam or HP Ice on my sets. Leftovers is extremely useful in not being 2HKOed by Gren Specs Hydro Pump. Calcs will be in my movesets submission later today hopefully.

With Rapid Spin and Defog, I don’t care either way. I’ll place Rapid Spin in brackets where Defog is (to indicate that whichever one we get is what goes in that slot). Giga Drain was placed as a method of recovery, since Scarf Healing is a meme. I’ll certainly slash Solar Beam tho. Also, I agree with your moveslot adjustments 100%. It was the middle of the night, what can you do :P

All of this will be implemented shortly either in my current post or in a repost with adjustments (Idk if I’m allowed to repost lmao).
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
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Moderator
#23
Moveset Submission

Name: Stun Spore Savagery
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower
Move 3: Stun Spore
Move 4: Shore Up
Ability: Trace/Drought
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP/4 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: (optional)
  • Moonblast and Flamethrower give good coverage that threatens a lot of the metagame--including every important Grass or Electric Pokemon.
  • Stun Spore takes advantage of CAP 24's good offensive coverage to cripple major offensive Pokemon like Mega Crucibelle, Charizard-Y and Heatran. With a hefty miss chance, Stun Spore isn't nearly so spammable as Thunder Wave or Glare.
  • Totally walled by Toxapex and Pyroak. Almost useless against defensive teams, but dynamite against offense.
 
#24
Movepool Submission

Name: AV Resetter for Sand
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Giga Drain/Leaf Storm
Move 3: Weather Ball/Flamethrower
Move 4: HP Ground/HP Ice
Ability: Drought
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 236 HP/212 SpA/60 SpD
Nature: Calm

One thing we actually already know about Sand teams from non-CAP metagames is that bringing in your Tyranitar is usually pretty cumbersome because he often has to come in while his sand turns are dwindling, leaving him unable to keep Sand up. OU Sand tams bypass that by putting Mega-Charizard-Y on the team to reset the weather so that Tyranitar always starts his 8 turns of Sand when he comes in. This presents a problem, owever, because Charizard-Y isn't really built for pivoting. This is where CAP comes in. By being a pivot that can let you reset weather, we can give Excadrill the maximum possible number of turns to execute a sweep. The 236 HP/60 SpD maximizes our special bulk and physical bulk, letting us come in more often against Water types and Ground types which threaten our Tyranitar+Excadrill core. 212 SpA is so that we always kills offensive Tomohawk with Moonblast.

212 SpA Weather CAP Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 354-416 (100.8 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Moonblast is our bread and butter spammable attack that hits many of the mons we want to counter. Giga Drain gives our AV set recovery it otherwise couldn't achieve, while Leaf Storm hits far harder. Weather Ball has very low opportunity cost on this set as a Fire type move, since we beat every weather setter one-on-one except for Charizard-Y, which doesn't change the weather. However, I've slashed Flamethrower for the niche instances where its better than Weather Ball (specifically Mega Scizor on a rain team). HP Ground covers Heatran and Poison types, and we really shouldn't have a better move than HP Ground against Poison types, since those are supposed to be counters. HP Ice can be teched in instead of the HP Ground, since Ice has synergies with Fire and Electric moves, though its pretty redundant with Moonblast.

An alternative set with 252 SpA/40 SpD/216 Speed and Timid Nature can also be employed on an HP Ice set to juke Flyinium Z Landorus-Therian, but at that point, you're probably better off with a Leftovers set for more recovery and staying power throughout the game.
 
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Deck Knight

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#25
Moveset Submission

Name: Fast Assault Vest
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Giga Drain
Move 3: Fiery Dance*
Move 4: Weather Ball / Focus Blast / Rapid Spin
Ability: Trace
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 40 HP/212 SpA/8 SpD/248 Spe
Nature: Calm

  • Moonblast is a solid Special STAB that can OHKO Offensive Tomohawk and 2HKO Offensive variants of Landorus-T.
  • Giga Drain provides the set with another STAB that also has a recovery effect.
  • Fiery Dance provides coverage and a way for the set to boost special attack, which in turn makes Giga Drain a much more effective way to heal.
  • Final slot has either Weather Ball or Focus Blast for coverage in Sand or a support move. Rapid Spin can remove hazards, Knock Off can remove items.
  • Speed EVs are to outspeed neutral natured Base 95s, which Specs Volkraken and Landorus-T tend to run, SpA EVs guarantee a OHKO on Offensive Moonblast. HP EVs fill out the rest, stopping just below a Stealth Rock divisible number.

The core of this set's utility is the role compression made allowable by Fiery Dance. As a competitive matter, native Fire coverage that also lets us increase Special Attack is a huge boon to something like an Assault Vest support set, and it allows CAP to take on the huge number of threats to Sand packing boosted Water and Grass special attacks. This spread outruns standard Specs Volkraken and avoids the 2HKO from Hydro Pump, as well as keeping Power Gem a 3HKO. Offensive Tomohawk actually just misses out on the OHKO on LO Hurricane with this spread.

Celesteela matchup:
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Naviathan: 90-108 (26.8 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 40 HP / 8+ SpD Assault Vest Naviathan: 80-96 (23.8 - 28.6%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO
212 SpA Naviathan Fiery Dance vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 140-166 (35.2 - 41.8%) -- 82.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 212 SpA Naviathan Fiery Dance vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 210-248 (52.8 - 62.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers

Drought could be run to make Fiery Dance immediately more powerful, and snowball somewhat with a Fiery Dance boost, but Tracing Flash Fire and going into a Fire move has the same effective power, and Trace also nets you Intimidate vs Landorus and breathing room against Heatran. Drought also really forces you to run Focus Blast because you can't deal with Heatran effectively without it.

Finally, since I know Fiery Dance will get some pushback just because it's a Volcarona exclusive and people don't like the optics of having two other-Pokemon exclusive moves (the other being Shore Up), I feel like Fiery Dance is a much more fitting one as Grass types often get off-type Dance moves (QD Bellossom, Lilligant) and Swords Dance is almost universal on Grass types as well. I realize these are not competitive concerns, they are optics concerns, but even as it comes to Sand I think access to Fiery Dance makes Sand sets perform a lot better by actually being able to break using relevant coverage as a SpA boosting mechanism rather than slapping on the one Sand-specific healing move and calling it a day.
Finally, even though Fiery Dance gets damage boosted by Sun, Sun would tend to prefer running more powerful options like Weather Ball, Fire Blast, or Overheat. Sun boosted Fiery Dance is only slightly stronger than non-boosted Fire Blast. Sun is going to opt for the immediate massive power over a chance effect much more often in my opinion.
 
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