CAP 24 CAP 24 - Part 9 - Moveset Discussion

[snake]

Moves I currently have problems with:

Aura Sphere - I don't like how we're considering many of the moves that hit Steel-types super-effectively. Fire-type moves make sense because of Drought, but Aura Sphere is too much. Focus Blast is inaccurate. If you're really concerned about missing, use Fightinium Z. I don't really see a reason why we should have a completely reliable 2HKO on Heatran, even if it's at the top of the threatlist. Focus Blast does it well enough.

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 211-250 (54.6 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Ice Beam - Hidden Power Ice should be sufficient, unless you want it for 4 SpA sets. But if you're running 4 SpA, you're usually aiming to bring utility to the team, so you probably shouldn't have room for Ice Beam. It's really questionable to me because Landorus-T is the only thing that Ice Beam really hits.

252 SpA Tapu Bulu Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 308-364 (96.5 - 114.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Bulu Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 308-364 (80.6 - 95.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Knock Off - Chansey's one of the main switch-ins, and we want to be able to hit it with Knock Off? I'm more in favor of hazard removal than this.

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EDIT: I think Rapid Spin vs Defog and hazard removal in its entirety needs some discussion.

 

[Hys]

Defog fits the theme of this CAP, due to many Grass types learning Defog such as Whimsicott, Serperior, and Lurantis, as well as Fairy types such as the aforementioned Whimsicott, Tapu Koko/Fini, and Klefki. Of course, that's more flavor based, but it's still something to consider. CAP has also had a history of using Pokemon with Rapid Spin, such as Tomohawk, Colossoil, and Mollux, while only Kitsunoh has Defog. I was talking with EpicUmbreon29 about this yesterday, and he agreed that Defog would be the move of choice, as it prevents Ghost types from spinblocking us, compared to Bisharp, who is rarely seen in the first place, and is threatened by the Sun archetype in general. Common Ghost-type Pokemon such as Gengar, Blacephelon, Marowak-A and Kitsunoh also resist both of CAP24's STABs, and 2 of them also resist Fire-type coverage.

Defog for CAP24 would be the more reliable option, as the main form of deterring Defog (Bisharp) gets threatened by CAP24 with Fire-type coverage, and it prevents hazard stack as a whole from demolishing Sun with their many ghost types who have positive matchups vs CAP24.

 

[Mx]

I've liked most sets submitted so far! I think that they show the different ways that CAP 24 can be used in both weather very well. That being said, I'd like to bring one point that most people have included in their sets without much considerations: Recovery moves. It seems that most people believe that having Shore Up/Synthesis is a necessity for CAP 24. However this seems to ignore how recovery makes CAP 24 exponentially harder to take down, and makes it job as a sun setter much easier, as we will be able to maintain our health through the game, and set up Sunlight as many times as needed. It should be noted that very few weather setter have access to recovery moves, and the ones that do still have clear weaknesses that CAP 24 lacks (For example, Pelipper has low base stats and is weak to SR, Hippowdon is extremely slow and passive, Malaconda is slow and a massive momentum sink for its own team, thanks to its x4 weakness to U-Turn and Mega-Charizard-Y consumes your Mega slot and is x4 weak to SR), which in turn means that there's no precedent to how such a powerful setter would affect the metagame. Therefore, I believe that we should take very seriously whether of not should CAP 24 have access to Recovery moves. If you do support them, I'd like you to clearly explain why do you believe they are necessary for CAP 24 to work.

Now, for comments on more specific sets:

Name: Drought Abuser
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower / Weather Ball
Move 3: Focus Blast
Move 4: Synthesis / Healing Wish
Ability: Drought
Item: Life Orb / Fightinium Z / Heat Rock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Probably the most "standard" set submitted so far, I think that it is the most natural fit on a Sun core consisting of Heatran/Volkraken/CAP 24. I also appreciate the balance between offensive moves and support options presented, Healing Wish in particular is a very interesting choice, as it allows us to keep momentum and fully heal a teammate, but in exchange for CAP 24 life, which makes it a very high-risk/High-reward move. If I had to nitpick something, I'd consider adding Rapid Spin as an option on the second slot alongside Flamethrower/Weather Ball

Name: Stun Spore Savagery
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower
Move 3: Stun Spore
Move 4: Shore Up
Ability: Trace/Drought
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP/4 SpA/252 Spe

I'm not too fond of Stun Spore. While it is true that is completely useless against more defensive teams, it can seriously cripple almost any offensive check, like M-Crucibelle, M-Charizard-Y and Scarf Volkraken, and while its accuracy it's not great, it can still do its job most of the time. I'd like to hear more on why would CAP 24 need a Paralysis spreading move.

Name: Sand Tank
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Focus Blast
Move 3: Flamethrower
Move 4: Shore Up / Hidden Power Ice
Ability: Trace
Item: Leftovers / Fightinium Z
EVs: 144 HP / 148 SpA / 216 Spe
Nature: Modest / Timid

A more dedicated Sand support set, I like its ability to reliably deal with Tomohawk. However I think that Rapid Spin should be slashed alongside Focus Blast. Sand teams might already have a decent spinner in Excadrill, but it would still appreciate being able to have more flexibility with its moves.

Name: Sun Scarf
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower
Move 3: Focus Blast
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Healing Wish / Solar Beam
Ability: Drought
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest

A Scarf set is definitely an interesting option, as CAP 24 has a great speed tier for one, being able to barely surpass the ubiquitous 95 tier by just one point. I'm not very convinced that HP Ice is necessary, as we already hit x4 weakness to Ice (like Zygarde, Garchomp and Landorus-T) already takes a ton of damage from our moves anyways, so I think that Solar Beam or Healing Wish are much better moves for your last slot. It should also be noted that a scarf set that loses against Cawmodore could be a problem for your own team, and requires additional support.

Name: Utility
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower / Focus Blast
Move 3: Rapid Spin / Heal Bell / Healing Wish
Move 4: Synthesis / Shore Up
Ability: Drought / Trace
Item: Heat Rock / Eject Button / Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

This seems like a decent option, as it can provide support on both weathers, either by reliably providing Sun or by taking on threats that Sand teams can't usually handle. I am not sure if we need Heal Bell, as it seems rather excessive, specially alongside other powerful utility moves like Healing Wish and Rapid Spin. I'd also like to remove Eject Button as an item choice, as it is rather gimmicky and almost always will end up outclassed by Heat Rock/Leftovers

Name: Hazard Remover
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower / Focus Blast
Move 3: Rapid Spin
Move 4: Synthesis / Shore Up
Ability: Drought / Trace
Item: Heat Rock / Life Orb / Leftovers
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

As its own set, this one doesn't really convince me at all, because it tries to combine both Sand and Sun on the same set. If you are using Drought, this is just a small variation on snake's set. If you use it with Trace, I think you would want to invest more in bulk, as that ability is better suited for defensive use, and offensive set miss the boosted Fire Coverage. However I agree that Hazard Removal is a very useful option for CAP 24.

Name: Fast Assault Vest
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Giga Drain
Move 3: Fiery Dance
Move 4: Weather Ball / Focus Blast / Rapid Spin
Ability: Trace
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 40 HP/212 SpA/8 SpD/248 Spe
Nature: Calm

Name: AV Resetter for Sand
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Giga Drain/Leaf Storm
Move 3: Weather Ball/Flamethrower
Move 4: HP Ground/HP Ice
Ability: Drought
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 236 HP/212 SpA/60 SpD
Nature: Calm

Assault Vest is an interesting item for CAP 24, but I'm not very sold on it, especially if we assume we're going to have reliable recovery. This is specially true in DK set, because with the same EVs and without AV, you still avoid the 2HKO from Celesteela's Flamethrower (0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 134-158 (40 - 47.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage) so you should be able to regain back your health with Shore Up, while still being able to use other items and Non-Attacking move. For this reason, I'd like to ask you both this question: Why would CAP 24 sacrifice its item slot and possibly reliable recovery in exchange for the SpD boost that AV provides?

Also I do not like Fiery Dance at all. Even if we ignore the dubious optics of potentially giving CAP 24 two different Signature moves, this move would allows us to potentially break past some of checks with ease, most notably enabling Grassium-Z sets to OHKO Toxapex after a boost (+1 252+ SpA Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 277-327 (91.4 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO) For this reason, while it might be unreliable, it should not be included in our final movepool. I am adding Fiery Dance to the list of banned moves

On a final note, I will also add Knock Off to the list of disallowed moves. While Chansey will probably be able to counter CAP 24 even after losing its Eviolite, it's ability to reliably answer to other threats would be hampered, and this is not something we should be doing.

 

[Pipotchi]

Recovery Moves

I definitely think we have to give this mon recovery. The important part of recovery is like you said, the ability to set weather for likely the entire game- the longevity of this mon is going to be a huge standout that should be considered one of if not the strongest features. The reason why I think its absolutely key is because this mon is filling a huge hole in both Sun and Sand teams when it comes to defensive merits, and a puts a lot of weight on its back for the entire team when it comes to switching into attacks- once your CAP24 goes down for a sun or sand team then a big part of the defensive backbone of the team is gone. Its also going to be a key part of switching into Celesteela in sand, which otherwise will eventually break us down with even a weak heavy slam + sand damage, not to mention flamethrower.

From what I can tell so far, the threat of Sun being up still pales heavily to that of Rain being up, which threatens sweeping, wallbreaking, and vastly improved defenses on several pokemon. In comparison, Sun improves defensive capabilities of the team against one key pokemon, Greninja, but Water is not a common coverage move at all and nowhere near as effective as the dampening of HP Fire. Offensively, Sun being up allows many Fire types to shine with wallbreaking power, but it doesnt offer the sweeping capability of a Swift Swim Mega Swampert or a boosted Water Shuriken from Ash Greninja that can use the boosted moves to also outspeed the opponent's team without any need to set up.

So I would consider Sun setup to be Low Risk, Medium Reward, as opposed to Pelipper's Medium Risk, High Reward, and we shouldnt compare their effects to be on the same level. Going back to the Tapu example again, Bulu is a fantastic Low Risk terrain setter that can stay alive for the whole match, setting for teammates/self and healing constantly, with what Id consider a comparable Medium Reward. That being said, the fact we have one of the best abilities in the game and also giving it recovery should curb our other strengths, which is why I think we should be total bare bones when it comes to other utility. Thats a major argument against Defog, Paralysis, and other otherwise fitting status moves for me (and it doesnt help this is generically such a powerful defogger that can see universal usage)

 

[SunshineFuture]

Let’s talk Fire moves. There are four I will discuss. Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Overheat.

Note that I’m on mobile rn, but others like Snek can back me up on this.

Fire Blast - This is honestly iffy for me. It does plenty to Steela, but it does a decent number on Roak as well. I’m not completely against it, but we really need to think about that.

Overheat - This is too much. It seems cool for a Z nuke, but in Sun, Overheat OHKOs with rocks iirc (at least 80% or something).
Flamethrower My favorite. It honestly hits the sweet spot of power. It does little to Roak and can only burn. Can’t think of much else here lmao

EDIT: Heal Bell on Utility was to give it a role outside of weather based teams as a cleric. Maybe I’m missing something but Zardy, while not a great sun setter for a team, it abuses Sun more than we can. If you keep hazards off the field, it can reek havoc. Remember it’s 4:11 AM where I am so if I am missing something don’t hold it against me lmao.

 

[Zephias]

A couple moves I'd like to give my opinions on:

-Recovery Moves: I'm participant of the opinion that CAP24 needs to have access to at least Shore Up for both concept fulfillment and quality of life in Sand. As much as I have jokes about the Sand Plink being irrelevant, it combined with a Life Orb (which I believe is a valid item option for CAP24) amounts to significant enough chip for CAP24 to need some form of answer to it. Shore Up is as pro-concept as it gets, helps cement CAP24's identity as a weather Pokemon beyond the matchups and its excellent niche within the team, and allows CAP24 to play more aggressive or loose with its offense within sand with the knowledge that it has a fallback option.

I don't believe it'd be overpowered, simply because by carrying Shore Up you are sacrificing any other kinds of utility since I really believe that the best performing sets CAP24 has require at least one STAB plus two Coverage options to command the necessary offensive pressure to fulfill the intended role.

Synthesis is a bit more hazardous, since Drought + Synthesis makes it a very consistent boosted source of healing. This is compounded with the fact that the overall offensive capabilities of the Sun set are higher than those of the Sand set thanks to the presence of boosted Fire coverage and (if they want it) instant STAB Solar Beams. I don't believe synthesis alone would make us impossible to deal with, but the concerns there are a bit more tangible. Also, refer to Pip's post for an excellent digest on what sun recovery adds from a weather-setting standpoint.

-Fiery Dance: One of my big problems with this move is I don't see the purpose of it beyond "Oh hey, this boosts!". If we plan on boosting sets, there's plenty of more thematically-appropriate avenues for it than Fiery Dance (Growth, for example). It's unreliable, but the ability to 50% of the time gaining a boost on a boosted attack would also complicate issues since it might create match-ups or situations where getting the boost on something switching in can change its status away from a check to a neutral match-up or beyond.

-Defog/Para/Miscellaneous utility: I feel incredibly meh about all of this. Sure, it's cool. But also... why? This 'mon relies a lot on being able to threaten a large variety of different types and Pokemon to enable the other combo pieces in the weather team to flourish within the created space. For that, it needs to have varied attacking options. To the tune of STAB + two Coverage at minimum, in my opinion, less than which CAP24 starts feeling a severe drop in how effectively it performs its role. This means you only have one moveslot to play, making CAP24 a terrible target for role compression. Any single one of these options means sacrificing the opportunity cost of having something more impactful (like recovery, Growth, Healing Wish for the massive momentum gain or a fourth attacking move), which is not worth it in my opinion.

Heal Bell and Defog in particular baffle me. There is no way CAP24 will be a better defogger than Tomo, and in most cases CAP24 would better spent the turn dealing damage instead of wiping away combat stages (Since CAP24, although not paper, isn't the bulkiest thing and probably doesn't want to trade blows too much). The thought is similar with Heal Bell. You've got no reason to not take an actual cleric, especially when CAP24 is much better suited to the idea of punching holes or chipping away at things. Sure, you cured your team of status effects, but you also tanked a blow more often than not and that's gonna diminish the pressure you can create with CAP24 significantly.

Thus, I don't really care if they're given or not. But I just don't see the reason.

 

[Yay61]

I don’t see the reasoning for Cap24 getting hazard removal. At this point in time, we can already outspeed notable threats, have good special attack and great coverage moves as well as drought and likely recovery moves. Defog/ Rapid spin seems like overkill, especially considering how risk free Volkraken becomes while still boasting insane power in our sun. Pelipper is the only other setter (apart from torkoal I believe) with hazard removal, however pelipper doesn’t also counter rain checks like ferro and pex and maintain good breaking prowess. I think we should stay away from generic and safe utility moves like stun spore as well as cap24 already has great synergy and many switchin opportunities to abuse them.

As for recovery moves, I’d prefer to just go with shore up. Sand teams seem to have less immediate destruction potential with Cap24 and I think the extra recovery on the primarily defensive sets will be a good addition, as well as solidifying our link to sand teams. Synthesis however seems a bit much, as Drought + fire type teammates/moves already bust through our checks hard and even more powerful recovery will only allow Cap24 to play even more aggressively with easy cop outs. Solid defences plus easy switchins to gren/Koko/zygarde means that even after blunders Cap24 will be able to recover almost 70% of its health shortly later. Again, on a mon already seeming to be highly splashable and effective, the extra bonuses are just unnecessary.

 

[SunshineFuture]

Hazard control is handled by Tomohawk, true, but a lot of Sun abusers are weak to rocks, notably Volk, Blace and ZardX (last one isn’t a thing atm, but that’s cause usually Zardy is your setter). Rapid Spin is better than Defog for us, because it gives us something over Tomo as a hazard remover.

Para spreading seems like a bad idea, because a lot of offensive checks are meant to outspeed us. As such, it seems a bit too risky to give. It also seems like a bit much to give Agility for the same reason, sorry Pipotchi :P

Also, I’ll cut Heal Bell from my set, I don’t care anymore about it. A fairy mon that can beat heatran and easily come in on it is probably good enough out of weather teams.

 

[david0895]

As its own set, this one doesn't really convince me at all, because it tries to combine both Sand and Sun on the same set. If you are using Drought, this is just a small variation on snake's set. If you use it with Trace, I think you would want to invest more in bulk, as that ability is better suited for defensive use, and offensive set miss the boosted Fire Coverage. However I agree that Hazard Removal is a very useful option for CAP 24.

I've added a bulky Trace set for the Sand, I'm not good at creating spreads so if you think that something can be fixed you can tell me.

Also, my opinions on:

Recovery moves: these are definitely important for CAP24, especially on bulkier sets, that require to tank attacks multiple times. Also most of the checks and counters OHKO it, so it can't use it against them

Strong Fire moves: While Flamethrower and Weather Ball seems good, Fire Blast and Overheat give to CAP24, the power to blast through Pyroak with the help of the Sun

252 SpA Abomasnow Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyroak in Sun: 123-145 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- 88.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyroak in Sun: 175-207 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Abomasnow Overheat vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyroak in Sun: 158-187 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Abomasnow Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyroak in Sun: 238-280 (53.7 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (35+53+rocks=dead)

Heal Bell: with this, Trace CAP24 can completely deal with Toxic Heatran, so why not?

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

Sun seriously struggles with it's main boosted STAB type being extremely susceptible to Rocks, and Sand cannot particularly recover if Webs go down, as one of their main Spinners is also their Sweeper. Pelipper being a setter with Hazard removal is part of its main capability despite otherwise being rather crap. Rapid Spin, I could see being potentially noped, as it only removes opposing hazards, but Defog can take away your own, which makes it less auto-click. I'd vote yes to Hazard removal. I'd considered that Defog would be preferential over the two, but let's be fair, it's Sand who uses the Rocks more than any other, so Defog feels self defeating. Why are people referring to Tomohawk as a defogger?

Shore Up is much more tenable, as it explicitly works better under Sand who needs the help more, and a Heatran counter can switch into Toxapex and switch out with Trace Regenerator anyway, regardless of weather. In Sun, obviously Synthesis has synergy, but I think that might be a bit too much; after all, Roost, and Synthesis is already pretty widespread on a Sun Team.

On a Sun Team, Heal Bell already exists in the form of Malaconda's Aromatherapy (incidentally who will appreciate not having to pull Drought duty, and can enjoy using its Harvest ability in the Sun). Admittedly, it's not used a lot, in favour of Rapid Spin, but it would be interesting to see if both CAP24 and Malaconda had access to Rapid Spin and Aromatherapy, they could choose which one would use which.

Why are we wanting to "power through" Pyroak in the Sun?
-CAP 24 should be countered by M-Charizard-Y, Chansey, Pyroak (On Sun) and M-Venusaur (On Sand).

 

[SunshineFuture]

Sun seriously struggles with it's main boosted STAB type being extremely susceptible to Rocks, and Sand cannot particularly recover if Webs go down, as one of their main Spinners is also their Sweeper. Pelipper being a setter with Hazard removal is part of its main capability despite otherwise being rather crap. Rapid Spin, I could see being potentially noped, as it only removes opposing hazards, but Defog can take away your own, which makes it less auto-click. I'd vote yes to Hazard removal. I'd considered that Defog would be preferential over the two, but let's be fair, it's Sand who uses the Rocks more than any other, so Defog feels self defeating. Why are people referring to Tomohawk as a defogger?

Shore Up is much more tenable, as it explicitly works better under Sand who needs the help more, and a Heatran counter can switch into Toxapex and switch out with Trace Regenerator anyway, regardless of weather. In Sun, obviously Synthesis has synergy, but I think that might be a bit too much; after all, Roost, and Synthesis is already pretty widespread on a Sun Team. Leech Seed, however, would allow it to have some Sustain and could combine to deal a fair amount of Tick Damage, especially if combined with a Rocky Helmet on a Sun Team.

On a Sun Team, Heal Bell already exists in the form of Malaconda's Aromatherapy (incidentally who will appreciate not having to pull Drought duty, and can enjoy using its Harvest ability in the Sun). Admittedly, it's not used a lot, in favour of Rapid Spin, but it would be interesting to see if both CAP24 and Malaconda had access to Rapid Spin and Aromatherapy, they could choose which one would use which.

Why are we wanting to "power through" Pyroak in the Sun?
-CAP 24 should be countered by M-Charizard-Y, Chansey, Pyroak (On Sun) and M-Venusaur (On Sand).

Seeds got banned, lmao. Synthesis doesn’t invalidate any checks or anything afaik, so I don’t see a problem. Also, turns out Tomo doesn’t get Defog. I still prefer Rapid Spin though. It defeats rocks on Sand teams to use Defog, and I don’t think Taunt should hurt us more than it does already assuming recovery. Heal Bell I’m down for, although I removed it from my set for now because I wasn’t certain if people wanted it.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

Seeds, what seed? *sideeyes*

 

[exithe]

Moveset Submission

Name: Special Tank
Move 1: Giga Drain
Move 2: Focus Blast
Move 3: Moonblast
Move 4: Weather Ball
Ability: Trace/Drought
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 252 SpD / 252 HP / 4 SpA
Nature: Calm

Description:

While a large number of sets and discussion have been centred around ‘abusing sun’, and some debates have been held over whether we should focus on sand, I believe making a set that can be used on both sides of the spectrum can do some good.

Move 1: Giga Drain
I chose this move to be an option of recovery among a set where pure healing moves cannot be used (AV). Giga drain along with STAB could also do considerable damage to pokemon who don’t resist grass.

Move 2: Focus Blast
While the option of Aura Sphere is also available, I chose not to use it because this pokemon doesn’t need a move that never misses just because of certain goals on the threatlist (Also, I don’t see a tie with ‘aura’ in this pokemon). That being said, focus blast can take care of Heatran, who resists (or is simply immune to) the other moves in this set, while also only having a 70% chance to hit, meaning that most users would use this only as a last ditch move, saving it for Heatran or only using it for offensive momentum.

Move 3: Moonblast
CAP24’s most powerful STAB move, this move not only offers offensive power, it takes care of more than half of the pokemon that we want CAP24 to beat. Enough said. Next move.

Move 4: Weather Ball
Perhaps one of CAP24’s more interesting moves, weather ball can be used for coverage. The reason why I don’t suggest using fire blast or any similar fire move, is that it is (dare I suggest) irrelvant to the CAP. If you think about it, weather ball seems to be the only viable and reasonable fire (or other) typed move that should be available to this CAP, as this *is* a grass/fairy type mon, and even though Drought boosts fire-type moves’ power, it is still the same for the opposing team (something brought up on discord for a period of time). Going back to the focus, weather ball could become fire-type coverage on Sun teams or rock type coverage team on Sand teams.

Ability: Trace/Drought
As stated before, this should be a set that could be used for both Drought and Sandstorm, so the ability should be up to the user to choose. But, to repeat the same point again, there are an absence of sand teams so try to use trace

EVs and Nature: 252 HP/4 SpA/ 252 SpD, Calm
These are generally modified to make the CAP have a little bit more bulk and power.

 

[SunshineFuture]

Name: Special Tank
Move 1: Giga Drain Rapid Spin
Move 2: Focus Blast
Move 3: Moonblast
Move 4: Flamethrower / Weather Ball
Ability: Trace/Drought
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 252 SpD / 252 HP / 4 SpA 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Nature: Calm / Bold

While a set like this is certainly interesting, in order to make it worth running over recovery in any case, some changes needed to be made. Giga Drain seems useful for recovery, but it usually isn’t worth running over Rapid Spin. Also, sets do not exist in vacuums. As we are most likely getting Flamethrower, it is a must have on a set like this. I will say however that Weather Ball with Drought isn’t a bad option by any means, so I kept Weather Ball there, just slashing it. EVs and Nature are more of a personal preference using what I have seen to optimize AV sets (anyone who disagrees with this part can jump in), maximizing Defense is a good idea, as Assault Vest will handle special moves for you, meaning that extra investment into SpDef is somewhat redundant. As such, I changed the spread to be bulkier overall. I also added Bold as a nature just to be safe.

 

[Catalisador]

Since most entries focus on CAP24's offensive power, I'd like to submit two movesets that focus on it's utility and support.

Moveset Submission

Name: Hazard control
Move 1: Rapid Spin
Move 2: Synthesis/Shore Up
Move 3: Moonblast
Move 4: Reflect type
Ability: Drought/Trace
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Description:

Most weather teams are weak to hazards, since most weather abusers suffer from Stealth Rock and Spikes weakness (M-Charizard on sun and Excadrill on sand, respectively, for example). Also, sand struggles against Sticky Web. So, giving CAP24 a role as hazard remover can be truly helpful.
Keep in mind this is a passive set that is not focusing on CAP24's offensive capabilities.

Move 1: Rapid Spin
Way of getting rid of hazards.

Move 2: Synthesis/Shore Up
Healing. Synthesis giving you 75% recovery under sun and Shore Up, under sand.

Move 3: Moonblast
Moonblast is CAP24’s STAB move of choice, making it deal fairly respectable damage even without special attack investiment.

Move 4: Reflect Type
You may think: "odd choice!", however, as I said, this particular set focuses on making CAP24 able to get rid of hazards. Reflect type allows it to copy the foe's typing, which can be really helpful in certain situtations - against Celesteela and counters like Mega-Venusaur, for example. Keep in mind CAP24 still won't be able to handle the counters, it'll just make it's job as a passive spinner easier!

Ability: Trace/Drought
This is a set that can be used for both Drought and Sandstorm, since both weather have hazard issues.

EVs and Nature: 252 HP/4 SpA/ 252 Spe Timid
This spread gives CAP24 a really respectable bulk and maximizes it's speed.



Name: Weather offensive utility
Move 1: Healing Wish/Spikes
Move 2: Focus Blast
Move 3: Moonblast
Move 4: Weather Ball
Ability: Drought/Trace
Item: Choice Scarf/Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Description:

This set is centred around abusing both sand and sun while providing utility in Healing Wish or Spikes and speed control if running Choice Scarf.

Move 1: Healing Wish/Spikes
I'm obssessed with pokemon that can provide utility while also being able to hit really hard. Giving CAP24 Healing Wish allows it to heal back a weakened ally is fantastic. Using that move on the right time can be game changing - high risk, high reward. Alternatively, Spikes provides chip damage that can be crucial to make other weather abusers get their K.O..

Move 2: Focus Blast
Again, high risk, high reward. Focus Bladt allows CAP24 to hit things like Heatran for gigantic amounts of damage. Although Aura Sphere is a really tempting option, I still prefer Focus Blast.

Move 3: Moonblast
CAP24's STAB move. Really spammable, hits really hard.

Move 4: Weather Ball
Amazing move that gives CAP24 the ability to get both fire nd rock coverage based on the weather. Overral, really solid choice.

Ability: Trace/Drought
Again, the ability is chosen based on what best supports the team.

EVs and Nature: 252 SpA/ 4 SpD / 252 Spe, Timid

Pretty standart spread, maximizes CAP24's offensive capabilities.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

Why do we want to reflect M-Venusaur's type? That is literally the point of the Counter. Why would we want to waste a use of Reflect type in order to become more resilient to our Counters. Literally, no.

Reflect type doesn't help us against the mon we already want to beat, and only makes out Counters harder against us. Throw Spore, Sleep Powder, Toxic, or Stun Spore on there, maybe.

Spore might be too much, especially with potential for Glare support as well flat out noping 2 mon, but as we have some Fat Grass types as our Counters anyway, I don't think this is overly bad.

 

[TKGriffiths]

Heat Wave

I'm absolutely convinced that CAP needs fire coverage to function as intended. Not just Weather Ball; that would give Drought an extremely powerful exclusive weapon that Trace couldn't hope to compete with, meaning Trace usage would be severely low. I already think that Drought is arguably a better ability than Trace even on sand teams (not only because of Drought's inherent power, but it shields us from sand chip damage also). No need to make the gulf in viability even more yawning.

But why make Flamethrower the default choice? CAP is supposed to be about selecting the most suitable moves for balance reasons, we shouldn't automatically default to the optimal Flamethrower. Some people even think any fire coverage at all is too good; anyone taking that view automatically supports my proposition of Heat Wave replacing Flamethrower on all sets

The case for Heat Wave: The base power difference is irrelevant when it comes to calcs. The variance from Flamethrower's damage rolls is about four times greater than the change in damage due to +5 base power of Heat Wave so it really is negligible. In exchange for this barely noticeable increase? A 10% chance to miss. Meaning the average base power of Heat Wave is 95*0.9 = 85.5, less than Flamethrower's 90.

We've established that we need Flamethrower's base power to achieve the K.Os we require, Heat Wave preserves this while the imperfect accuracy adds another layer of thinking into your decision making. I'm also of the opinion that Flamethrower is a shade better than Weather Ball even on Drought sets due to its reliability - replacing it with Heat Wave adds another layer of thinking into this decision also. Do you prefer to rely on imperfect accuracy, or fluctuating weather?

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

Heat Wave

I'm absolutely convinced that CAP needs fire coverage to function as intended. Not just Weather Ball; that would give Drought an extremely powerful exclusive weapon that Trace couldn't hope to compete with, meaning Trace usage would be severely low. I already think that Drought is arguably a better ability than Trace even on sand teams (not only because of Drought's inherent power, but it shields us from sand chip damage also). No need to make the gulf in viability even more yawning.

But why make Flamethrower the default choice? CAP is supposed to be about selecting the most suitable moves for balance reasons, we shouldn't automatically default to the optimal Flamethrower. Some people even think any fire coverage at all is too good; anyone taking that view automatically supports my proposition of Heat Wave replacing Flamethrower on all sets

The case for Heat Wave: The base power difference is irrelevant when it comes to calcs. The variance from Flamethrower's damage rolls is about four times greater than the change in damage due to +5 base power of Heat Wave so it really is negligible. In exchange for this barely noticeable increase? A 10% chance to miss. Meaning the average base power of Heat Wave is 95*0.9 = 85.5, less than Flamethrower's 90.

We've established that we need Flamethrower's base power to achieve the K.Os we require, Heat Wave preserves this while the imperfect accuracy adds another layer of thinking into your decision making. I'm also of the opinion that Flamethrower is a shade better than Weather Ball even on Drought sets due to its reliability - replacing it with Heat Wave adds another later of thinking into this decision also. Do you prefer to rely on imperfect accuracy, or fluctuating weather?

I think I'd prefer Flamethrower with Lava Plume support. Gives a choice between Burn Support or outright damage, so that sets do not have to run Max SpA.

 

[Catalisador]

Why do we want to reflect M-Venusaur's type? That is literally the point of the Counter. Why would we want to waste a use of Reflect type in order to become more resilient to our Counters. Literally, no.

Reflect type doesn't help us against the mon we already want to beat, and only makes out Counters harder against us. Throw Spore, Sleep Powder, Toxic, or Stun Spore on there, maybe.

Spore might be too much, especially with potential for Glare support as well flat out noping 2 mon, but as we have some Fat Grass types as our Counters anyway, I don't think this is overly bad.

I didn't want to give CAP24 such a powerful way of punishing it's switch-ins, so I chose Reflect Type over Glare. Reflect Type allows it to avoid a potential K.O. from moves like M-Venusaur's Sludge Bomb, Steel type moves from the likes of Jirachi, Celesteela and such - SE moves in general. It is a kinda situtational move that I thought could be helpful.

 

[TKGriffiths]

I think I'd prefer Flamethrower with Lava Plume support. Gives a choice between Burn Support or outright damage, so that sets do not have to run Max SpA.

The question of Lava Plume is a different one I think, it functions quite differently as a move so there is a decision to be made between Flamethrower and Lava Plume should both be available. There is no such decision between Heat Wave and Flamethrower - Flamethrower is superior.

Also you don't need to quote my entire post when replying, it clogs up the thread. :)

 

[Yay61]

I don’t think fire coverage is necessary at all assuming we get weather ball for sun. The only thing we want to hit on sand seems to be Celesteela, but hidden power does the job just as well. Even though flamethrower hits us for upwards of 30 damage, we have recovery in shore up and can easily take it down slower while abusing shore up’s higher pp. The only pokemon in our counters list weak to fire is bulu, and the ones in the pressure list are adequately threatened by hidden power fire and so can be pressured.

0 SpA Tapu Bulu Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore: 132-156 (54.5 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tapu Bulu Hidden Power Fire vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 110-130 (43.8 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Against Tapu Bulu, like Celesteela we outdamage in the end and can recover our losses
60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu in Grassy Terrain: 90-106 (23.1 - 27.3%)
0 SpA Tapu Bulu Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 81-96 (23.6 - 27.9%)

All of these calcs also assume no spatk investment/item/Defense investment, which is pretty generous considering the likely defensive nature of sand teams. Flamethrower is by no means required as we can already beat everything we want to beat in sand regardless.

 

[MC Squared]

Sun Abuser
CAP 24 @ Heat Rock / Life Orb / Grassium Z / Firium Z
Ability: Drought
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shore Up / Synthesis
- Leaf Storm / Energy Ball
- Moonblast
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower / Weather Ball

Gave it Fire-type coverage because it would be very effective to have under sun as it'll boost its power and it hits the types that are resisted by Grass like opposing Grass, Bug and Steel-types. For Fairy well it's the Steel-type LOL.

Sun Setter
CAP 24 @ Heat Rock / Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlwind
- Moonblast
- Shore Up / Synthesis
- Energy Ball / Flamethrower / Weather Ball

Tracer
CAP 24 @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Trace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm / Energy Ball
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Moonblast
- Hidden Power [Ice]

I have Shore Up in these movesets because it's the best weather based healing move as it gets no drawbacks in certain weathers. Although Synthesis is included as well because it's a universal move on Grass-types.

 

[TKGriffiths]

I don’t think fire coverage is necessary at all assuming we get weather ball for sun.

The point is - why would you ever use a Trace set at all? Why not just run Drought + Weather Ball even on a sand team when it makes your fire move 250% as powerful as HP Fire?

 

[Dogfish44]

I'm surprised that I've not seen any set using Growth (or even Rototiller) yet. I understand that boosting can be kind of scary to some of our checks - but for many of them it offers them the free switch in that checks inherently want. Indeed, the only 'check' that suffers notably is Toxapex, and calling Toxapex a check is broadly insulting to anyone which has access to the Damage Calculator.

Either way, before I descend into a rant on how Fiery Dance is a really good option, in particular for Trace, when it comes to proving a boosting option, and my general grievances with banning it so quickly, here's a movepool sub created at 2 AM.

---

Okay, so fair warning that even though this is really just a variant on the 3 Moves + Utility that CAP24 seems to be leaning towards, this one is kind of weird. I mean, I've always been weird when I design movesets (See: Laser Focus Pajantom), but still.

This set could slash in Shore Up or Synthesis or Moonlight or what have you in somewhere, but it already has enough slashitis in the 3rd and 4th moves.

If there's a backlash against PsyTerrain, then that could be cut without any hassle (or trim Nature Power and just give CAP24 Thunderbolt naturally)

Moveset Submission

Name: Terrain Adjuster
Move 1: Electric Terrain / Misty Terrain / Psychic Terrain
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: Flamethrower / Focus Blast / Sludge Wave / Nature Power
Move 4: Flamethrower / Focus Blast / Sludge Wave / Nature Power
Ability: Trace / Drought
Item: Life Orb / Terrain Extender / Normalium-Z / Electrium-Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
Nature: Timid

• Grassy Terrain is really annoying for Sand to deal with, losing access to Excadrill's main STAB option. CAP24 has the right stats to be able to pivot around and change the terrain to something more favourable.
• Moonblast remains a staple across all sets, although I suppose you could slash it out, I just can't imagine any major reason to do so.
• Flamethrower (I prefer not having RNG rolls on my Fire Coverage) and Focus Blast have been explained already, and Nature Power I'll jot down below. Sludge Wave is particularly useful to this set for it's ability to ping away Tapu Bulu as a OHKO (Outside of LO HP Poison isn't guarenteed to do so on even completely uninvested sets), whilst Wave KOs even standard AV Bulu. And yes, a set which is based on shifting Terrain away from Grassy Terrain has a vested interest in getting rid of the Tapu Bulu.
• Electric Terrain + Nature Power (Thunderbolt) does not cause major concern to Sand's Teammates, and has the Z-Move which allows for CAP24 to grab +1 Speed. Nature Power from Electric Terrain OHKOs Tomohawk 81.3% of the time, and is a very strong 2HKO on Celesteela, dealing 61.4-72.5% damage from Timid 252 (no Item). And Z-Nature Power scores OHKOs on both from very low investment (and indeed, zero investment on Tomohawk).
• Misty Terrain leads to a fairly standard set, but protecting Tyranitar and Excadrill from stray burns and the like gives them a substantial amount of leeway in how they're used. This is probably substantially less useful for the Sun teams (Misty Terrain unfortunately refuses to buff Fairy type moves like it's brothers, rude!)
• Psychic Terrain + Nature Power (Psychic) doesn't extend our coverage in an ideal manner, but what it does let us do is disrupt Priority Options that would otherwise interrupt an allies sweep - think in particular Greninja's Water Shuriken, and Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch.

Useful Calcs

252 SpA Shiinotic Hidden Power Poison vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 268-316 (95.3 - 112.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Shiinotic Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 343-406 (100 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Shiinotic Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela in Electric Terrain: 244-288 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Shiinotic Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk in Electric Terrain: 342-404 (97.4 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
36 SpA Shiinotic Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela in Electric Terrain: 398-470 (100.2 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Shiinotic Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk in Electric Terrain: 542-638 (130.9 - 154.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Mx]

I think that a lot of people are submitting too many similar movesets. If you want to submit a new moveset, please consider editing one of the pre-existing sets instead of submitting an entirely new one just to add one move or slightly tweak the EVs.

Here's a list of the most notable sets submitted so far:

Hide

Name: Drought Abuser
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower / Weather Ball
Move 3: Focus Blast
Move 4: Synthesis / Healing Wish
Ability: Drought
Item: Fightinium Z / Life Orb / Heat Rock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Name: Sun Hazard Remover
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower / Focus Blast
Move 3: Rapid Spin
Move 4: Synthesis
Ability: Drought
Item: Heat Rock / Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Name: Sand Hazard Remover
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower
Move 3: Rapid Spin
Move 4: Shore Up
Ability: Trace
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 20 SpA / 92 SpD / 144 Spe
Nature: Timid

Name: AV Resetter for Sand
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Giga Drain/Leaf Storm
Move 3: Weather Ball/Flamethrower
Move 4: HP Ground/HP Ice
Ability: Drought
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 236 HP/212 SpA/60 SpD
Nature: Calm

Name: Stun Spore Savagery
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower
Move 3: Stun Spore
Move 4: Shore Up
Ability: Trace/Drought
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP/4 SpA/252 Spe

Name: Sun Scarf
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower
Move 3: Focus Blast
Move 4: Healing Wish / Solar Beam
Ability: Drought
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest

Name: Utility
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower / Focus Blast
Move 3: Rapid Spin / Healing Wish
Move 4: Shore up / Synthesis
Ability: Trace / Drought
Item: Leftovers / Heat Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Name: Terrain Adjuster
Move 1: Electric Terrain / Misty Terrain / Psychic Terrain
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: Flamethrower / Focus Blast / Sludge Wave / Nature Power
Move 4: Flamethrower / Focus Blast / Sludge Wave / Nature Power
Ability: Trace / Drought
Item: Life Orb / Terrain Extender / Normalium-Z / Electrium-Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
Nature: Timid

I'd also like to ask more people for their thoughts on Recovery moves and why are they needed for CAP 24, as I'm planning to wrap that up tomorrow night.