CAP 25 - Part 8 - Stat Spread Discussion

[Roland le preaux]

In order to best utilize Galvanize and our typing, should CAP 25g be oriented more strongly towards an offensive or defensive role?

I think mixed is the best execution of the concept for 25G because Galvanize doesnt have a high number of usable moves on either side alone- not only that but special side has options that allow it to go mixed with even the bare minimum special investment and this allows it to "specialize" since defensive mons like Zapdos that wall all the other physical grass types wont be able to wall our mixed set.
I also believe that boosting is not the way to get through Tomo with the physical set (which everyone i think is insinuating will happen) but a mixed set actually threatens Tomo without needing to become a sweeper born from hell itself. Seriously, any set that can beat Tomo with setup + prio is far too centralizing and will push mons out of the metagame. You guys tryna make a better Talonflame? :P

I think the presence of Cawmodore and Cyclohm, who both will probably wall a physical set even at +2, plus numerous fast Electric-immune OU/CAP pokemon such as Voodoom, Fidgit, Zeraoara, and Scarf Lando / Scarf Garchomp, means that a setup + priority version of CAP 25g is not going to overwhelm the metagame.

I'd also rather it be purely physical so it can have some bulk, and I think a mixed set would have a serious case of 4-moveslot-syndrome. To be honest, it's hard to imagine any scenario in which 25g has access to setup but would prefer to run a mixed set... that is a really rare scenario that happens when a pokemon has either a highly specific niche (Bulk Up + Ice Beam Mega Mewtwo X) or amazing neutral coverage (Nasty Plot + Sucker Punch Houndoom). So unless we are going to deny 25g setup moves and force it to run 4 attacks or something, I think we'd be wasting our time trying to give it a viable a mixed set.

 

[SunshineFuture]

I think the presence of Cawmodore and Cyclohm, who both will probably wall a physical set even at +2, plus numerous fast Electric-immune OU/CAP pokemon such as Voodoom, Fidgit, Zeraoara, and Scarf Lando / Scarf Garchomp, means that a setup + priority version of CAP 25g is not going to overwhelm the metagame.

While I agree that 25g isn’t going to overwhelm the meta, some of these immunities are super flimsy. Voodoom, Zeraora, Garchomp and even arguably Fidgit (other than snake_rattler) aren’t super good right now. The first three aren’t even viable in the CAP meta, especially the first two.

 

[hawk1113]

CAP 25g

In order to best utilize Galvanize and our typing, should CAP 25g be oriented more strongly towards an offensive or defensive role?
Looking at the threats list, should CAP25g be more physically or specially focused (or mixed) both offensively and defensively?

So I think the first question is obvious - absolutely, 100%, we NEED to be offensive. We simply don't have a good enough defensive typing to make a real go of it in the current meta.

As to the second, here's the thing - I want Physical. You want Physical. We all want Physical. Physical gives us insane Returns as well as powerful priority and some utility (Hazard removal, mostly). But let's look at our threatlist:

Toxapex: Defensive, SpD: Since it can be either, we would need to be Mixed to beat ALL sets. If we focus on one stat, we'll beat whatever we match well against and probably lose to the other, but we do have an easier time if we are Special since we can come in on Scald without fear. Indeed, a sufficiently powerful special electric attack can actually chew threw "the Pex" (AKA Specially Defensive Toxapex).

Gastrodon: all sets: We will beat this with any ol Grass stab, Special or Physical, so consideration should be that some bulk would be nice (we don't resist Earthquake), and to get bulked we should not be mixed.

Rotom-w: all sets: Tends to run as Physically Defensive and use Scald, so will be easier to beat as a Special attacker.

Tapu Fini: Defensive: Tends to just be generically bulky, and will be easily managed whether we are Special or Physical. Again, it'd be good to pick instead of trying to do both, as we don't resist Moonblast and will need some bulk.

Skarmory: all sets: While we won't have much trouble against ol' Skarm no matter what we choose, we will have an easier time if we are Special-biased, as this will mean we should be able to clean OHKO the birdplane without any support from our team.

Tomohawk: Defensive: We've only specifically targeted standard defensive Tomo. While we should beat it no matter what, again we will clean OHKO it without rocks support if we lean Special. Also again, we do not resist Air Slash, Earth Power, or Aura Sphere (its most common offensive moves), so a little bulk goes a long way.

Kartana: Scarf: I...don't know why this is on the list, as we're going to need insane bulk to stomach multiple Sacred Swords or insane speed to race it. It also resists both our STABs. That all being said, we clearly would want some bulk here to have any chance, and going Special means we can just kill it with (Hidden Power) Fire.

Naviathan: Calm Mind: Amusingly enough, I think we're better off Special here. We can still net a clean OHKO with electric coverage even if Naviathan gets to +1, and the risk of coming in on a Scald and getting burned is disastrous as suddenly we just can't beat it.

Clefable: Defensive (without Flamethrower): Most Clefable invest in Physical bulk, meaning we will struggle to beat it unless we go Special. At the risk of being a broken record, being mixed is not ideal as even without Flamethrower we aren't going to love eating Moonblasts and Knock Offs.

Fidgit: Utility: This is ever so slightly tilted in favor of Physical imo, as even though Fidgit tends to invest in physical bulk, the physical grass STAB has less drawbacks. Still, we could definitely plan for Special being fine here with the right moves (mostly a move with BP 120+). The important thing, once again, is that Fidgit can actually hit us surprisingly hard with Earth Power and U-turn and as a result, trying to be mixed is a bad plan. We want to hit as hard as we can, and we want to have enough bulk to eat the inevitable U-turn out (hopefully with the Speed to at least punish Fidgit for trying to do its normal nonsense - or is that enough of a lack of speed to outspeed it in trick room? Now my head hurts).

Jirachi: Defensive: Spoiler - This is the only clean and unambiguous win for us needing to go Physical, as Jirachi tends to be specially defensive and a special attacking set will thus struggle to threaten Jirachi enough to stop it from Wish-Turning as planned.

Ferrothorn: all sets - It's a bit of a wash, and recall that part of our conversation was that we're mutually unable to hurt each other. If we REALLY want to preserve that, we should be Physical to make it utterly, utterly hopeless - being Special means we can kill it with (HP) Fire.

Now, that's 12 Pokemon in the meta we said we wanted to switch-in on multiple times and threaten out/kill. If we're counting, that is 6 where we ought to be Special to have the best odds, 3 where it doesn't matter but we need to pick one and not be mixed, 1 where we need to be Physical, 1 where we need to be Mixed or Special, and 1 where we need to be Special to threaten it, and Physical to not, and its unclear which of those we want to be true. Overall, the overwhelming weight would be towards us being a powerful Special attacker, and also the overwhelming weight is towards us not being Mixed, as we simply don't have a good enough defensive typing to let our Resists to all the work. I would hasten to add that the one Physical contender is not commonly seen in the meta, while many of those Special targets are in A, A+, or S-rank.

That isn't the entire story for 25g, but as I look at the rest of the list, it definitely feels like we're wanting to be a Special Attacker despite my desires...

PROS for being a PHYSICAL ATTACKER:
- Less risk to our Checks/Counters list. Specifically, we can't use Hidden Power: Poison to kill Jumbao or HP: Ground to kill Magnezone or Heatran, both possibilities if we are specially biased.
- Lets us tango with Magearna, which of the two conditional 'mons on are C&C list is definitely the more prevalent in the meta.
- While we'll Pressure our Pressure list no matter what, we definitely win on more mutual switches if we are physical with some Extremely strong priority in our arsenal. Specifically it helps us out versus Greninja, Tornadus-T, Volkraken, and Offensive Tomohawk.
- Matches up better versus AV Colossoil, which will be a common stop to our electric shenanigans.
- Is more "unique", and has some additional utility options - we could still have those utility options if Special, but of course they are better coming off a high physical attack (especially a certain Explosive suicide lead move).

PROS for being a SPECIAL ATTACKER:
- Gives us a possibility of using HP: Ice against some particularly dangerous threats to our build such as Landorus-T and Zygarde. The theory of Galvanize is that our Grass coverage can help us beat things immune to electricity, but that only matters in practice against Colossoil in this meta. This is minor, as we can just give our 'mon actual real Ice coverage if we decide to go Physical and still wanna beat these two down. However I would point out on the other hand that Lando and Zygarde tend to be physically bulky (Lando has intimidate on top of that), making Physical coverage rough compared to muscling through it with neutral Grass STAB on the Special side.
- Gives us STAB and max power on a useful Pivoting move, if we desire it.
- Has the higher damage options for Grass STAB. Generally will have higher BP moves, if we desire them.
- Can bypass Subs with Galvanize Sound moves - this is super minor, as the most common sub users in the meta are currently Zygarde (immune) and Necturna (resists all STABs and blows us up). Worth considering to make sure we still beat 25w though.

On balance that's one more notch for Physical than Special and the points in favor of physical are generally stronger, but I don't know that it overcomes all the major advantages of Special in terms of actually helping us switch-in on and threaten stuff.

EDIT: Cleaned a few things. Also in terms of our own bulk, I don't know. Most of what scares us is Special (Tomo Air Slashes, various STAB Moon Blasts from random faeries, Scalds from random passive waters), but the hardest matchup we have is Flame Orb Colossoil and Kartana, both of whom are going to need considerable physical bulk.

 

[Pipotchi]

I think the presence of Cawmodore and Cyclohm, who both will probably wall a physical set even at +2, plus numerous fast Electric-immune OU/CAP pokemon such as Voodoom, Fidgit, Zeraoara, and Scarf Lando / Scarf Garchomp, means that a setup + priority version of CAP 25g is not going to overwhelm the metagame.

I'd also rather it be purely physical so it can have some bulk, and I think a mixed set would have a serious case of 4-moveslot-syndrome. To be honest, it's hard to imagine any scenario in which 25g has access to setup but would prefer to run a mixed set... that is a really rare scenario that happens when a pokemon has either a highly specific niche (Bulk Up + Ice Beam Mega Mewtwo X) or amazing neutral coverage (Nasty Plot + Sucker Punch Houndoom). So unless we are going to deny 25g setup moves and force it to run 4 attacks or something, I think we'd be wasting our time trying to give it a viable a mixed set.

Both specially oriented and physically oriented mixed sets have access to moves on the opposite side that are high enough base power to be utiized with the bare minimum 70 Atk or Spa. This is the direction I would like to explore with mixed.

Also regarding that list of checks, not only are most of those mons kinda irrelevant in the tier but its super downplaying the offensive power of a mon thats ohkoing Hawk. If it can ohko Hawk after boosting it can also ohko anything with 95/90 defenses and lower with a no-drawbacks priority attack - and that's also Argho, Aurumoth after rocks, Mega Crucibelle, Kitsunoh, Mollux after rocks, Naviathan, Stratagem, Syclant, and Volkraken. And thats just me flicking through the CAPs, with others like Kril and Colossoil fearing a Grass STAB.
I dont mind setup priority, but not if its going to be an overpowered priority move that can achieve these results with either setup, Electric Terrain, or Band. I want to be able to enjoy playing this tier after this pokemons release, lol

 

[Dece1t]

Both specially oriented and physically oriented mixed sets have access to moves on the opposite side that are high enough base power to be utiized with the bare minimum 70 Atk or Spa. This is the direction I would like to explore with mixed.

Also regarding that list of checks, not only are most of those mons kinda irrelevant in the tier but its super downplaying the offensive power of a mon thats ohkoing Hawk. If it can ohko Hawk after boosting it can also ohko anything with 95/90 defenses and lower with a no-drawbacks priority attack - and that's also Argho, Aurumoth after rocks, Mega Crucibelle, Kitsunoh, Mollux after rocks, Naviathan, Stratagem, Syclant, and Volkraken. And thats just me flicking through the CAPs, with others like Kril and Colossoil fearing a Grass STAB.
I dont mind setup priority, but not if its going to be an overpowered priority move that can achieve these results with either setup, Electric Terrain, or Band. I want to be able to enjoy playing this tier after this pokemons release, lol

Just to add on, don't shoot down the idea of mixed offenses due to stat strain when we also can add boosting options down the road (Work Up being a decent example). On top of Galvanize boosting our Electric attacks and the boosting effects of items, I think accomplishong a mixed set is very doable.

 

[hawk1113]

Just to add on, don't shoot down the idea of mixed offenses due to stat strain when we also can add boosting options down the road (Work Up being a decent example). On top of Galvanize boosting our Electric attacks and the boosting effects of items, I think accomplishong a mixed set is very doable.

Work Up is not a super viable move, and I don't think it's a good plan. On top of that, my (and other) concerns is not stat strain cramping our offenses, it is stat strain cramping our survivability and bulk.

We have four resistances, and only three relevant resistances since many of the top Steels in the meta don't carry Steel moves (Magearna, Kartana, Heatran, Cawmodore, Ferrothorn, Mega-Mawile) and/or carry coverage that is extremely threatening to us (Kartana's Sacred Sword, Heatran's Fire STAB, Cawmodore's Acrobatics and ability to get to +6 Attack, Kitsunoh's U-turn and Ice Punch, Magnezone's Hidden Power, Magearna's Fleur Cannon/Ice Beam, Celesteela's Flamethrower, Scizor's U-turn, Physical Naviathan's Icicle Crash or Facade).

As I wrote out in my post, there are a lot of mons on our list of "switch-ins" we're supposed to beat that, if we have mediocre bulk, are going to be whacking us for 35-50% with neutral moves or SE non-STAB moves before we can get attacks off on them. I don't think we need insane bulk or anything, but we can't afford to be built like Infernape either. If we are built like that...

0 Atk Gastrodon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Grass/Electric Infernape: 123-145 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Grass/Electric Infernape: 130-154 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Grass/Electric Infernape: 121-144 (41.2 - 49.1%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Grass/Electric Infernape: 130-154 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Fidgit Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Grass/Electric Infernape: 118-139 (40.2 - 47.4%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Grass/Electric Infernape: 81-96 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- 84.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

And, in case you are curious about how that Ferro matchup works out for us...
88 SpA Life Orb Galvanize Electric/Grass Infernape Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 88-105 (25 - 29.8%) -- 15.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

These are all mons that, again, we're supposed to switch-in on multiple times in a match. With the exception of Tomo (and its stupid 115 SpA as a defensive 'mon), most of these guys are carrying around mediocre to bad attacking stats and none of them are attacking with any meaningful investment. They're also all smacking us with neutral hits (Heck, Ferro is hitting us with a resisted STAB).

I think there's still room to explore on whether or not 25g should be Physical or Special, but I think it would completely tank our viability to try and go mixed.

 

[BlueRay]

Hm, I swear I wrote a second text about the possibility of CAP 25 g being mixed offensive. But anway, to refer to to this quote

As I wrote out in my post, there are a lot of mons on our list of "switch-ins" we're supposed to beat that, if we have mediocre bulk, are going to be whacking us for 35-50% with neutral moves or SE non-STAB moves before we can get attacks off on them. I don't think we need insane bulk or anything, but we can't afford to be built like Infernape either. If we are built like that...

I'd say that if we want to go mixed offensive, then we cannot really make our grass starter bulky on both sides as it will likely have a nature reducing either its Defense or Special Defense to outspeed certain Pkm, thus making it difficult for CAP 25 g to switch in on all Pkm from the list it's supposed to check.
However, as the Pkm from the list are mostly Pkm favouring special moves, we could focus rather on our Grass starter's Special Defense than on its Defense. Its Special Defense doesn't have to be high as someone already suggested an Assault Vest, which could make it bulky enough to withstand attacks from Tomohawk's Hurricane, Celesteela's Flamethrower, etc.
As for Kartana, CAP 25 g would need quite some bulk to not be 2HKOed by Sacred Sword, which is why foregoing Kartana from the list and focusing on CAP 25 g's Special Defense + mixed offensive set would likely be the best outcome if we really want to run a mixed offensive set.
If we were to focus only on Physical Attack or Special Attack, then we would be able to make our Grass starter bulky on both sides. This would allow it to switch in on Kartana's moves.

Edit: As for Gastrodon's Earth Quake, our Grass starter could heal off the damage with Giga Drain.

 

[Dece1t]

Work Up is not a super viable move, and I don't think it's a good plan. On top of that, my (and other) concerns is not stat strain cramping our offenses, it is stat strain cramping our survivability and bulk.

We have four resistances, and only three relevant resistances since many of the top Steels in the meta don't carry Steel moves (Magearna, Kartana, Heatran, Cawmodore, Ferrothorn, Mega-Mawile) and/or carry coverage that is extremely threatening to us (Kartana's Sacred Sword, Heatran's Fire STAB, Cawmodore's Acrobatics and ability to get to +6 Attack, Kitsunoh's U-turn and Ice Punch, Magnezone's Hidden Power, Magearna's Fleur Cannon/Ice Beam, Celesteela's Flamethrower, Scizor's U-turn, Physical Naviathan's Icicle Crash or Facade).

As I wrote out in my post, there are a lot of mons on our list of "switch-ins" we're supposed to beat that, if we have mediocre bulk, are going to be whacking us for 35-50% with neutral moves or SE non-STAB moves before we can get attacks off on them. I don't think we need insane bulk or anything, but we can't afford to be built like Infernape either. If we are built like that...

0 Atk Gastrodon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Grass/Electric Infernape: 123-145 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Grass/Electric Infernape: 130-154 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Grass/Electric Infernape: 121-144 (41.2 - 49.1%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Grass/Electric Infernape: 130-154 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Fidgit Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Grass/Electric Infernape: 118-139 (40.2 - 47.4%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Grass/Electric Infernape: 81-96 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- 84.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(Poll jumping redacted)

These are all mons that, again, we're supposed to switch-in on multiple times in a match. With the exception of Tomo (and its stupid 115 SpA as a defensive 'mon), most of these guys are carrying around mediocre to bad attacking stats and none of them are attacking with any meaningful investment. They're also all smacking us with neutral hits (Heck, Ferro is hitting us with a resisted STAB).

I think there's still room to explore on whether or not 25g should be Physical or Special, but I think it would completely tank our viability to try and go mixed.

I think you missed my point mate. I gave work up as only an example, obviously there's also options, Growth being a pretty major bulk which can core us with sun mons pretty darn well (again, an example to outline my point, boosting moves DO help and give us some* leeway with stats, Pipotchi explained the stat limit pretty well. A spA stat of 85, 90 or slightly better for me would suffice). Also, who said we have to saceifice bulk, we can have an average speed to compensate for our bulk, which is completely possible (especially considering we want to abuse priority anyways). Our typing isn't complete crap either, alongaide our resistance, we gain some decent and highly workable neutralities.

Also, note for the Ferrothorn calc, Im pretty sure people meant with HP Fire we can take it, clearly Electric moves being resisted does not help. Im pretty sure that was a given.

 

[reachzero]

In order to best utilize Galvanize and our typing, should CAP 25g be oriented more strongly towards an offensive or defensive role?

Grass/Electric is not a good defensive typing, as is demonstrated by the shakiness of 25g's switch in list. Galvanize is an all-or-nothing offensive ability--25g would be best suited focusing on offense rather than trying to throw stats at the issue of its lack of useful resistances.

Looking at the threats list, should CAP25g be more physically or specially focused (or mixed) both offensively and defensively?

Defensively, 25g's switch in list slants slightly toward physical, but the two most relevant resistances (Water and Electric) are overwhelmingly Special, so I feel that some degree of bulk is useful on either side, though physical is a slightly greater priority.

Offensively, most Pokemon on the switch in list invest more heavily in SpD than in Def, except for Tomohawk and Kartana. The counter list is not affected very greatly by the choice of physical vs special, except for 25g doing better against Ferrothorn with HP Fire. I therefore feel that physical is more important than special from a threat list standpoint.

 

[faithviolet]

CAP 25f

We determined back in concept assessment that our Fire Pokemon was going to have an offensive leaning. Our typing, Fire/Ground, is incredibly potent offensively, and the ability that we selected, Technician, has powerful applications for both physical and special Pokemon. With that in mind...

To most effectively interact with our threats list as we want to, should CAP 25f's primary offensive focus be physical, special, or mixed?
In addition to our offensive effectiveness, are there any important threat interactions that we should be taking into account with regard to CAP 25's defenses?

Since we have so many pokemon we threaten purely on the basis of super-effective STAB, we need less power than we otherwise would, and so a mixed offensive focus would be best. The number of our counters that switch in neutrally to our STABs weakens the power of our coverage, which means it's more okay to encourage coverage moves, the way special Technician does, because they're less likely to be significantly better than STABs (especially since we intend to encourage movepool interaction with our ability within the STABs).

This would increase the number of counters to any individual set by a lot compared to strongly biased offensive stats, because there's more room for bulk to prevent KOs, and any one coverage-typed move can only cover a few threats and is more dependent on prediction ability. Additionally, the potential physical movepool is stronger in raw power, while the special movepool sacrifices that power for flexibility in team role. This is a interaction we should be encouraging. A physically-biased (to a minor extent at least) set of offensive stats could reinforce this, while the potential of beating chosen "counters" keeps the special stat relevant.

Defensively, many of the Pokemon that should be threatening us offensively either do so through water-type moves which are likely to KO due to the 4x weakness, or are physical (Mega-Aerodactyl, Landorus-T, Mega-Crucibelle, Pajantom). A weaker physical defense would help preserve this.

 

[jas61292]

So far it seems like we are seeing at least a few general consensuses on the stats for our Pokemon.

25g being mainly offensive and physical, with some support for mixed offense.

25f being mixed offensive with a stronger physical bias.

25w being high all around defenses, but especially physical defense. There has also been some talk about both physical and special offense, but probably a bit more support for physical.

There has not been a ton of chat about the defenses for either 25g or 25f, so if you have a strong opinion on either of those, or 25w's offenses, please bring that up soon. I'm going to try and get up some preliminary stat limits in the next day or so, and while they will absolutely be subject comment and change, I'd like to at least try and have the general biases settled.

 

[Roland le preaux]

Well, given the nice analysis and invitation for further comment, I'll speak up one more time. I don't see why a lot of people are completely disregarding the idea that CAP 25g is supposed to be a switch-in to Scarf Kartana... it seems feasible to give it decent physical bulk to avoid the 2HKO from Sacred Sword, at least without SR on the field, without much defensive investment. Even if 25g is primarily an attacker, it could follow the example of Delphox and have its defensive stats specialized in the same direction as its offense. And its bulk doesn't have to be absurd to become relevant -- here's a calc with 85 HP and 95 Defense:
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-Mow: 131-155 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Admittedly, barely surviving 2 attacks without rocks on the field is not much of a defensive niche, but decent defensive bulk could also help us greatly versus Colossoil, Guts Naviathan, and any other attack Scarf Kartana might be locked into. I'm less concerned about special bulk because I simply don't think 25g is going to be a very reliable Scald switch-in due to the burn chance. And in the case of common Electric special attacks, we are going to be laughing those off for the most part due to our 4x resistance.

 

[gibygiby]

25w ofensive bias: The things we want to threaten don't have a significant swing, which is probably why some people are looking at moves when deciding since physical has more options. I like special offense a bit better for the fact that some of what we want to threaten have lower spdef/like to boost def.

25f defenses: Fire/Ground has some good defensive potential that we can utilize even if only a little. Our threaten list has a lot of special attackers so decent special bulk to survive some resisted hits or weak neutral hits would be ideal. I don't think having bad physical bulk is a big difference and we should focus on other stats and put whatever remains into physical bulk. If we go mixed then we will be short on stats so having a decent spdef and bad def is better than having okay for both.

25g defenses: I don't see any specific reason for a bias in either direction, except Roland le preaux's post about our switch in ability for Kartana. I think that some bulk would be beneficial for some staying power. The role of a bulky attacker would help with viability. The only issue I see is the concern of a bulky set sweeper potential.

 

[BlueRay]

Admittedly, barely surviving 2 attacks without rocks on the field is not much of a defensive niche, but decent defensive bulk could also help us greatly versus Colossoil, Guts Naviathan, and any other attack Scarf Kartana might be locked into. I'm less concerned about special bulk because I simply don't think 25g is going to be a very reliable Scald switch-in due to the burn chance. And in the case of common Electric special attacks, we are going to be laughing those off for the most part due to our 4x resistance.

How much of a difference would a physical bulk make? Most physical attackers from our "switch into" list have moves our Grass starter already resists. The only exceptions are Skarmory and Kartana. It's just two Pkm against seven other Pkm specialising in Special Attack. Moon Blast, Air Slash, and Hurricane hurt but they don't require as much investment into Special Defense as your Rotom calculation for physical attacks. To give an example, 79 HP and 85 SpD is enough to be 3HKOed by Clefable after Stealth Rock. Adding an Assault Vest turns it into a 4HKO. The same applies to Air Slash from Tomohawk. The only special move that really does a lot of damage is Hurricane. Without Assault Vest, it's a 2HKO. With this item, it's a 3HKO after Stealth Rock. Either way, this gives CAP 25 g a chance to comfortably OHKO or 2HKO the Pkm from the check list while still having somewhat enough HP left to threaten other Pkm.
To sum up: I'd argue that a focus on Special Defense would be better as you would still have some points left for improvement in other areas such as Speed, Attack, or even Physical Defense. Furthermore, most physical Pkm from the list use moves it already resists, thus narrowing it down to Skarmory and Kartana. On the other hand, we have seven Pkm favouring special attacks, which would mean our Grass starter will more likely deal with them than with the two other Pkm.

While I like your idea of a specialisation, if you really want to include Colossoil or Guts Naviathan - they are not mentioned in the list - then you would need a lot more physical bulk as the former has a very high Attack stat and the latter has access to Icicle Crash and Facade. I don't think we will have the option to invest that much into its physical bulk.
And to address Kartana again, as CAP 25 g only checks Kartana, there's always the threat of Sacred Swords, and so - if I understand the definition of a check correctly - there's no need to focus that much on its physical bulk. So long it's enough to survive 2-3 Leaf Blade, that's enough, I think.

Also, from what I have seen, some people are open to the idea of a physical and a mixed set, so being burned wouldn't be that much of an issue if it's mixed.

On the other hand, some physical bulk is important if you don't want it to loose that much HP to U-Turn from Jirachi or Colossoil.

Then you mention it's resistance to Electric. I'm not sure why you would mention even that because doing so can easily give us the impression that some people argued that enough Special Defense would be beneficial to surive strong electric moves. On top of that, the Pkm from the list barely use electric moves. (I'm sorry if I sound patronizing or condescending; that is not my intention).

 

[GMars]

25f should preference being more specially defensive in order to take hits from Magearna better and to gobble up hidden powers from the slew of special electrics it wants to come in on while allowing Earthquake mons to check it more easily.

For 25g, there's value in giving a mixed-offensive variant a strong physical defense, allowing it to act as a check to Scarf Kartana. Doing this could also allow 25g to stomach a +0 Never-Ending Nightmare from Necturna, easing play versus a Necturna that could try to set up on it. This would improve 25g's viability in line with what was discussed at the end of threats discussion, though would require a significant stat investment, so I ultimately do not have strong feelings with regards to the defensive bias for 25g.

 

[jas61292]

Hey everyone. So I'm going to throw out some preliminary Stat Ratings here for you to comment on. Note that the individual limits are intended to be somewhat lenient compared to the overall BSR. My goal is to allow some greater variation in submissions, as between our BSR limit and low BST starter requirement, it will be impossible to come anywhere near maxing out all the individual stat limits. So, here they are:

25g - Physical Tankiness: 140, Special Tankiness: 120, Physical Sweepiness: 170, Special Sweepiness: 140, Base Stat Rating: 290

25f - Physical Tankiness: 110, Special Tankiness: 130, Physical Sweepiness: 180, Special Sweepiness: 150, Base Stat Rating: 290

25w - Physical Tankiness: 180, Special Tankiness: 160, Physical Sweepiness: 120, Special Sweepiness: 100, Base Stat Rating: 290

A link the the up to date BSR calculator can be found in the OP.

For those unfamiliar with base stat ratings, these are scores that detail the overall power of our CAPs with regard to their physical and special, offensive and defensive strength, relative to other Pokemon. This is a fairly tricky step of the process, so newer uses may be well served by lurking a bit here, and checking out this page describing how it works (a bit out of date with regard to examples, but gets the general idea correct). The old stats threads in the process archive are also a great resource.

I will leave this open for comment for the next day or two before the limits are finalized and we move on to submissions.

 

[david0895]

I still think that 25w needs of an higher SS to better threaten setup users with Scald.
Stuff like Revenankh or Mega Gyarados can spam DD or Bulk Up to bypass the burn and do heavy damage with the neutral STAB.
Also Curse Scizor and Bulk Up Rev can give them enough Defense to tank Waterfall or Liquidation

 

[G-Luke]

I still think that 25w needs of an higher SS to better threaten setup users with Scald.
Stuff like Revenankh or Mega Gyarados can spam DD or Bulk Up to bypass the burn and do heavy damage with the neutral STAB.
Also Curse Scizor and Bulk Up Rev can give them enough Defense to tank Waterfall or Liquidation

I agree wuth this statement. Sufficent SpA should be given so that capw can threaten Pokemon that its supposed to check, as mons like LandyT, Zygarde and Mega Scizor have very solid physical bulk.

 

[Pipotchi]

25f - Physical Tankiness: 110, Special Tankiness: 130, Physical Sweepiness: 180, Special Sweepiness: 150, Base Stat Rating: 290

This does not seem representative of the discussion that has taken place regarding this mon?
Good points have been brought up of how this mon shouldnt have a good special attack, and should be slow by offensive standards. The stats need to go somewhere else, but its physical and special tankiness values are too low to fit there. So this is geared towards being a decently fast and frail sweeper- since no viable slow pokemon can afford those frail defenses. It will be able to scarf and outspeed all the scarfers that are supposed to threaten us in the threats discussion which shouldnt be allowed, as well as beat Gyara, Peli, Lando, Gastro, Megapert, and Mega Aero from high percentages thanks to its decent Spa and ease in carrying Life Orb thanks to increased speed.
We also talked in the threats discussion about how fire/ground is a good coverage that should be looking at checks more regarding its speed tier and strength of neutral hits rather than resistances. Imo, physical and special tank need to increase massively to allow slower sets to actually be submitted- I only have the old calculator but Im getting something like 80/80/90 as max for a slow set which is totally unviable

 

[G-Luke]

This does not seem representative of the discussion that has taken place regarding this mon?
Good points have been brought up of how this mon shouldnt have a good special attack, and should be slow by offensive standards. The stats need to go somewhere else, but its physical and special tankiness values are too low to fit there. So this is geared towards being a decently fast and frail sweeper- since no viable slow pokemon can afford those frail defenses. It will be able to scarf and outspeed all the scarfers that are supposed to threaten us in the threats discussion which shouldnt be allowed, as well as beat Gyara, Peli, Lando, Gastro, Megapert, and Mega Aero from high percentages thanks to its decent Spa and ease in carrying Life Orb thanks to increased speed.
We also talked in the threats discussion about how fire/ground is a good coverage that should be looking at checks more regarding its speed tier and strength of neutral hits rather than resistances. Imo, physical and special tank need to increase massively to allow slower sets to actually be submitted- I only have the old calculator but Im getting something like 80/80/90 as max for a slow set which is totally unviable

What benefits do we gain from being intentionally slow and bulky? What speed stats are we talking about? Why is it better for the process, the metagame and the CAP itself if this mon goes that route, instead of a speedy one?

And I havent seen much points about slow and bulky being the way to go for a long while. I thought the general consensus moved to a more speedy approach. And don't worry about SpA, as from alot of tinkering I did, its very hard to have a good SpA without undercutting alot of the more important stats.

 

[Pipotchi]

What benefits do we gain from being intentionally slow and bulky? What speed stats are we talking about? Why is it better for the process, the metagame and the CAP itself if this mon goes that route, instead of a speedy one?

And I havent seen much points about slow and bulky being the way to go for a long while. I thought the general consensus moved to a more speedy approach. And don't worry about SpA, as from alot of tinkering I did, its very hard to have a good SpA without undercutting alot of the more important stats.

reasons to go bulky:
-abuse our rocks neutrality to a greater degree, switching into our checks multiple times rather than once
-abuse our good resistances throughout the match instead of getting nuked by z-move magearna, ferrothorn power whip, z-move magnezone, plasmanta sludge bomb/aura sphere
-be a reliable mega mawile check when holding z-move
-allows us to be slower and not be deadweight

reasons to not be a fast mon:
-allow us to more easily balance our incredible stab moves and coverage, which fits the role of wallbreaker
-turn revenge killing into a reliable method for teams to deal with 25f
-improve the ability of landorus, gyarados, rotom-w, tapu fini, pajantom, scarf bao (vs scarf), scarf volk (vs scarf), the list goes on
-allow it setup moves in order to beat the likes of chansey or clefable without ramping its offensive pressure to stupid levels
-we have seen a pattern with mons with perfect offensive coverage in things like heatran and mamoswine. these mons are balanced by their speed tier.
-we have seen heatran show it is possible to be a bulky fire type that is slower than landorus providing it has rocks neutrality
-its a safer route that has seen more support in threads and in discord with stats backing it than the opposing, loose justification of faster spreads

____
there really is no reason to give a fire/ground pokemon a stupid speed tier for the purpose of creeping arbitrary mons, especially above 100 and even creeping things like lando is unnecessary when its actual reliable switchins with just fire move/ground move/toxic consists of about 4 common pokemon. Almost every single pokemon under this pokemon's speed is threatened by it, and many of its purest "counters" such as pelipper, stratagem, gyarados, moltres and mega aero dont commonly fit on teams or are bad in the tier. giving it the opportunity to scarf with a good speed tier only serves to further limit the number of mons that can reliably switch in and requires scouting for scarf on top of everything. Sun also is a viable playstyle in the tier which further increases its offensive power with little to no cost.

I'll repost this coverage chart of the mon's ability to smash things:

bear in mind that none of those double-resist slots are risk-free when it comes to hidden power coverage. dragon/flying is 4x weak to tech-boosted hidden power ice, fire/flying is 4x weak to tech-boosted hp rock, water/flying is 4x weak to tech-boosted hp electric, and there arent any rock/flying or rock/levitate mons in the higher tiers of CAP (not to mention mega aero and stratagem both arent tanky enough to take super effective hits, perhaps even regular hits).

i encourage ppl who have shown support to a more middling speed 25f on discord to post something about it in the thread also- because theres been a lot more speed-related discussion and (from what i saw) heavy agreement on 25f speed tier being slower there. there havent been any detailed posts in this thread backing a fast 25f, and similarly there has been almost entirely loosely-justified higher speeds suggested on discord. i'm actually pretty surprised to hear you think the consensus has landed on a faster speed tier for this mon cus i didnt get that impression at all.


Here is how i personally see the speeds, taking into consideration all the above:

<77- too low
80- outsped by gyarados - fine
83- is capable of outspeeding adamant zygarde if wanted - good
85- goes alongside tapu fini + tomohawk (checks), outsped by excadrill, rotom-w - good
>85- requires good explanation
>91- too high

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

I think all of these spreads are fine, although the discussion over CAPf is highly debatable right now.

I think a speedy CAPf could be both viable and balanced in objection to Piptochi's claims. Our stat amounts we can actually invest into the mons are quite limited, and I think putting too much into bulk will leave CAPf to be far too weak to actually be considered offensive, and cutting speed would make it much easier to kill, pretty much turning it into a weaker Mega Camerupt. Our STABs also won't be the strongest considering our ability choice making the max power of stuff around 90 BP if we want to keep up ability-movepool coordination (not saying its impossible to run other stronger stabs on a set but at least one has to use Technician) I still think that bulk should be increased to compensate a more bulky offense option, but I don't think it should be locked into something bulky.

I also agree with the idea that SS for CAPw needs to be a bit higher. Scald is a really crucial move for a lot of bulky waters due to their tendency to be quite passive and it actually gives them a chance to apply more pressure. I don't think the gap should be too big between the two Sweepiness stats, since 120 Facade is quite strong for CAPw, but I would like the option of Scald as well.

 

[Frostbiyt]

What benefits do we gain from being intentionally slow and bulky? What speed stats are we talking about? Why is it better for the process, the metagame and the CAP itself if this mon goes that route, instead of a speedy one?

And I havent seen much points about slow and bulky being the way to go for a long while. I thought the general consensus moved to a more speedy approach. And don't worry about SpA, as from alot of tinkering I did, its very hard to have a good SpA without undercutting alot of the more important stats.

What benefits do we gain from being intentionally fast and frail? What speed stats are we talking about? Why is it better for the process, the metagame and the CAP itself if this mon goes that route, instead of a slow one?

And I haven't seen much points about fast and frail being the way to go at all. I thought the general consensus has been a slower approach ever since the threats discussion.

I agree with Pip that the PT and ST for 25f are too low for a slower sweeper/wallbreaker and basically force us to go a faster route despite there being basically zero conversation(before the limits were posted) on speed. Also, after skimming the thread just now, there doesn't seem to be much conversation on how bulky 25f should be, just whether or not it should be Physically or Specially biased.

25g - Physical Tankiness: 140, Special Tankiness: 120, Physical Sweepiness: 170, Special Sweepiness: 140, Base Stat Rating: 290

I'd like to also make a last minute defense of 25g being able to run both Physical and Special attacking sets. The positives of a physical bias are obvious, but the attack stat doesn't need to be that high to still use electric STAB effectively with Galvanize because of its 1.2x power boost which would leave some room for extra SpA. Grass/Electric/Normal have such an expansive special movepool(and I'm not referring to that stupidly powerful special attack), I think it would be a shame to not be able to utilize it.

 

[Deck Knight]

A slow, bulky fire type is a dead one when you're working with starter level stats. Mollux and Pyroak have the advantage of flipping the script on bulky waters and Heatran has 600 BST and one of the most amazing resistance/immunity profiles ever, along with massive SpA and a custom high-powered trapping move.

Any BSR limit that does not allow at least 110 (Atk/SpA) / 100 Spe sweepiness is too low. The arguments that Fire/Ground is inherently too mighty a STAB combo to allow any kind of viable threat level are ridiculous.

 

[Pipotchi]

A slow, bulky fire type is a dead one when you're working with starter level stats. Mollux and Pyroak have the advantage of flipping the script on bulky waters and Heatran has 600 BST and one of the most amazing resistance/immunity profiles ever, along with massive SpA and a custom high-powered trapping move.

Any BSR limit that does not allow at least 110 (Atk/SpA) / 100 Spe sweepiness is too low. The arguments that Fire/Ground is inherently too mighty a STAB combo to allow any kind of viable threat level are ridiculous.

Bulky waters dont even use their STAB water attacks in CAP apart from Toxapex, that really is the most irrelevant part of the weakness of slow fire types, and we hit all of them neutrally or better with ground coverage. The problem with "slow" Fire types is SR weakness is that there are only about 3 with actual respectable stats- Emboar, Volcanion, Chandelure. And all of these pokemon are geared to be purely offensive and have no good switchins thanks to being slow and SR weak (while not having spikes immunity either) in the case of Chandelure and Volcanion, and doubled down by Emboar's excellent ability to kill itself with its own moves. Slow pokemon that are SR-weak or that wear themselves down are generally bad. Thats also why you dont Life Orb slow-ass mons in OU. Its not just related to Fire pokemon.

Not only that, but this mon is good defensively. Not incredible, but good. It has effectively one weakness in the majority of matchups, unless it warps the tier to force water types to use their STABs (which will be a sign of its success). It has an immunity to switch in on, and an excellent Fairy and Elecetric type matchup. Its stealth rock neutral. It hits the vast majority of Ground-types, its main weakness, for neutral damage minimum or can tech in a 4x effective hidden power for many. We should stop applying generic statements to types without breaking it for individual mons, because it takes like 3 seconds to see that several common flaws for Fire types dont apply for this mon and that Water weakness has not been a major issue for an entire generation.

Furthermore you can easily add BST onto existing fire types or take away from 600 BST ones with huge dump stats to create viable starter level BSTs. Heatran with - 20 atk, and -6 off all its other stats is still OU viable and a great Pokemon- plus, even lava plume sets are considered viable despite being much worse than magma storm. Increase Marowak-A's stats by 100 and remove its ability to hold thick club and its a great Pokemon. Mega Camel has the same typing, CAP viability, an OU analysis, and an offstat 50 BST higher than our required limit. Swap its stats around a little and you have something easily CAP viable- its not even holding an item! Hell, you can even take a Regen Ho-oh with 80/110/70/70/115/80 (535) and I bet that mon is incredible in OU or CAP. We have unique attacks to work with too- there are multiple absurdities achievable with technician that Heatran and friends can only dream of having. Starter BST is not an issue at all.

Lastly, "slow" doesnt equate to always moving last. We have the option of running speed boosting moves some of which are attacks that work perfectly with technician. Priority also works perfectly with technician and allows us to not be deadweight in certain situations.