CAP 25 - Part 8 - Stat Spread Discussion

[Magic Mayhem Maiden]

Judging by Technician boosted moves, I really want an Offensive Utility 25f, where it's powerful but gives utility to the team. I would like to be able to utilize the Speed control STABs, but I would like it to still be decently fast so it can actually hit affect the opponent Mon.

 

[BlueRay]

25 CAP g: Overall, I'm quite satisfied with this spread. Now, just to be sure. Does Tankiness just refer to Defense/Special Defense or does it also include HP?

25 CAP f: While I'm not too invested in this Pkm, I'd say the spread also looks good. I also support a rather fast, but not too fast Fire Pkm. It'd be quite different from Mega Camerupt, and with enough Speed it might threaten some annoying Ground Pkm such as Landorous or Zygarde.

25 CAP w: Looks good. But personally, I don't see why its Special Attack should be higher just so it can benefit from Scald. The main reason why you use this move is to spread status. And Landorus will likely be 2HKOed, especially after Stealth Rock.

 

[koista12]

I don't see the value in trying to redo Mega Camerupt and make another slow Fire / Ground pokemon. Yeah the camel has Rock bottom speed, but even just losing out on slower offensive mons would really hurt. We likely won't have the bulk to actually take neutral hits all that well while maintaining respectable speed, which would force us to use resists and pretty much defeat the purpose of a bulkier stat spread. A Mon that only threatens defensive teams frankly isn't interesting or viable. We should aiming to have a least a decent speed stat to outpace mons that can hurt us badly but also get hit hard by our moves.

I know some people are really worried about our STAB combo but it's not like we're building the next Marshadow here. Hidden power seems to have the most potential for sniping mons that are already neutral to one of our STABs but get hit even harder by Hidden Power. That's happens when either the mon has lots of physical bulk or it has a 4x weakness, and there aren't that many common 4x weakness types in OU - Ice, Electric and Grass are the ones I can think of. (And fire but ye no)

 

[Dogfish44]

This to me is the first thread in which people have seriously argued in favour of Sweeper 25f, rather than Wallbreaker 25f. That's kind of important as information in my opinion - the sudden shift to stat biases not allowing bulkier builds stands against the flow of the project for a lot of people.

I don't think anyone is advocating lowering the SS or PS (even though slower bulkier mons naturally do not hit the upper limits), or stopping people from having the option of making sweeper spreads, but having bulk stuck at 80/80/90 or so means that we have zero chance of seeing a wallbreaker, which again is what we were working on the assumption of.

I also don't think anyone is proposing that we make another Camerupt. Certainly nobody that I'm aware of has advocated for Trick Room speeds - indeed, I think most people are looking at between 80 to 90 when we look at wallbreaking?

I don't see the value in trying to redo Mega Camerupt and make another slow Fire / Ground pokemon. Yeah the camel has Rock bottom speed, but even just losing out on slower offensive mons would really hurt. We likely won't have the bulk to actually take neutral hits all that well while maintaining respectable speed, which would force us to use resists and pretty much defeat the purpose of a bulkier stat spread. A Mon that only threatens defensive teams frankly isn't interesting or viable. We should aiming to have a least a decent speed stat to outpace mons that can hurt us badly but also get hit hard by our moves.

(Emphasis Mine)

I just want to comment on the Bolded because it.... misses the point. The reason we're talking about the PT/ST right now is exactly because they need to be higher so that we WILL have the bulk to take neutral hits well. I fail to see how it's unlikely we'll not have higher defenses on a slower mon... because people arguing for a slower mon are literally the ones who want to make usage of higher potential bulk limits.

 

[Deck Knight]

25g - Physical Tankiness: 140, Special Tankiness: 120, Physical Sweepiness: 170, Special Sweepiness: 140, Base Stat Rating: 290 [570 added]

25f - Physical Tankiness: 110, Special Tankiness: 130, Physical Sweepiness: 180, Special Sweepiness: 150, Base Stat Rating: 290 [570 added]

25w - Physical Tankiness: 180, Special Tankiness: 160, Physical Sweepiness: 120, Special Sweepiness: 100, Base Stat Rating: 290 [560 added]

Just wanted to make one of my usual boring ratings threads posts.

The overall ratings are excellent, and hit the mark for a diverse array of viable spreads.

I think the Sweepiness ratings for 25g and 25g are fine, as well as Tankiness ratings for 25w.

I think the Sweepiness ratings for 25w should be bumped up slightly to 125 and (less slightly to) 118. I have always considered Speed a form of defense, and at present even the spread I've been considering which has 176 stat points devoted to PS and 155 to SS is riding both limits. The SSweep especially makes special attack focused mildly quick spreads suffer, and even if that isn't my preference it's a viable choice. This lifts them up to about ~180 and ~170 stat points respectively.

I feel the Tankiness Ratings for 25f are a little too low and should be raised to 120 PT / 140 ST. Presently a physical tankiness maxes out at about 160 points allocated between HP and Defense and 170 between HP and SpD, and I feel like spreads that want to bias a little more against non-SR physical priority attacks or do better against Hidden Power coverage types should have that padding space. These would up them to around ~170 and ~180 stat points respectively.

For 25g I would increase the Special Tankiness to 140 to match the Physical Tankiness, as I feel it equally valid a discussion of which neutral special hits to take better than neutral physical hits given our typing. This allows allocation of ~180 stat points, up from ~160 to ST.

 

[jas61292]

In response to the discussion in the thread, I am going to adjust a few of the limits upwards.

25g - Physical Tankiness: 140, Special Tankiness: 120, Physical Sweepiness: 170, Special Sweepiness: 140, Base Stat Rating: 290

These limits were mostly well received, and so I am leaving them as is.

25f - Physical Tankiness: 125, Special Tankiness: 140, Physical Sweepiness: 180, Special Sweepiness: 150, Base Stat Rating: 290

The main concern here was the inability to have much bulk, and the need for either high Speed or SpA, as the you could not have one low and still reach a starter BST easily. To address this, I have bumped up both tankiness limits by a bit, which should allow people who want to give a bit more bulk, while still making sure we overall keep the offensive focus we decided on in the concept assessment.

25w - Physical Tankiness: 180, Special Tankiness: 160, Physical Sweepiness: 125, Special Sweepiness: 115, Base Stat Rating: 290

For this Pokemon, the biggest issue was offenses. A few people expressed a desire for slightly higher special sweepieness. While I do standby the fact that the consensus in the thread was more towards physical offense, I believe that Deck Knight made a good point in speed being important for defense as well as offense, and the limits as they were may have been a bit too constraining on that front. As such, I have slightly boosted both sweepieness limits, which will both allow for more special leaning spreads, and better speed.

 

[reachzero]

In response to the discussion in the thread, I am going to adjust a few of the limits upwards.

25g - Physical Tankiness: 140, Special Tankiness: 120, Physical Sweepiness: 170, Special Sweepiness: 140, Base Stat Rating: 290

These limits were mostly well received, and so I am leaving them as is.

25f - Physical Tankiness: 125, Special Tankiness: 140, Physical Sweepiness: 180, Special Sweepiness: 150, Base Stat Rating: 290

The main concern here was the inability to have much bulk, and the need for either high Speed or SpA, as the you could not have one low and still reach a starter BST easily. To address this, I have bumped up both tankiness limits by a bit, which should allow people who want to give a bit more bulk, while still making sure we overall keep the offensive focus we decided on in the concept assessment.

25w - Physical Tankiness: 180, Special Tankiness: 160, Physical Sweepiness: 125, Special Sweepiness: 115, Base Stat Rating: 290

For this Pokemon, the biggest issue was offenses. A few people expressed a desire for slightly higher special sweepieness. While I do standby the fact that the consensus in the thread was more towards physical offense, I believe that Deck Knight made a good point in speed being important for defense as well as offense, and the limits as they were may have been a bit too constraining on that front. As such, I have slightly boosted both sweepieness limits, which will both allow for more special leaning spreads, and better speed.

Stat limits approved. For clarity's sake, Stat Submissions will take place in three separate threads, one for each starter. Please do your best to participate in each!