CAP 25 - Part 9 - CAP 25w Full Movepool Submissions

cbrevan · Oct 18, 2018

NEW: This is a Celebration CAP, meaning that we are going out of our way to break some rules. We'll be creating a set of three Pokemon this time around, a set of Fire, Water, and Grass-type starters! You can read exactly which rules we'll be breaking here and the logic behind Celebration CAPs here. Give these a read-through to get some context.

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CAP 25 Grass-type Full Movepool Submissions:https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ll-movepool-submissions.3642822/#post-7938364
CAP 25 Fire-type Full Movepool Submissions: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ll-movepool-submissions.3642821/#post-7938362
CAP 25 Water-type Full Movepool Submissions: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ll-movepool-submissions.3642823/#post-7938368

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This is the thread for making full movepools for our upcoming CAP, Snaelstrom! At the conclusion of this thread, our Movepool Leader cbrevan will be compiling a slate of Final Submissions for the community to vote on, and the winning submission will become the official movepool for 25w.

We recently made significant changes to our policies regarding movepools, so do not assume that rules from past CAP projects apply. See this Policy Review thread for more information about the new rules.

We've had a discussion of movesets, which identified the competitive movesets we intend to be the most viable in standard OU play. Please see the concluding post in that thread, as well as the following poll, for more information on those movesets.

The following rules apply to all Movepool Submissions:

The movepool can contain a maximum of 85 total moves. You may have less than or equal to 85 moves, but not more.
There are no longer any limits to the number of Restricted Moves, as mentioned in articles on the CAP subsite and past CAP projects.
All movepools must have all the Mandatory Moves listed below.
No movepool may contain any of the Banned Moves listed below.
Any move not listed as Banned is provisionally allowed.
The Movepool Leader cbrevan and Topic Leader reachzero may add Banned moves during the course of this thread. If that happens, there will be ample notification in the thread, and you will have the opportunity to remove those moves from your movepool prior to final submissions.

Final Movepool Submissions must include all of these moves, and they cannot be Event Moves. Submissions that don't have all these moves will not be considered for slating.

Aqua Jet, Ice Beam, Infestation, Leech Life, Liquidation, Psycho Shift, Rapid Spin, Scald, Spiky Shield, Stealth Rock, Sticky Web, Swords Dance, Trick Room, U-Turn

The "universal" TM/Tutor List for fully evolved Pokemon: Attract, Confide, Double Team, Facade, Frustration, Giga Impact, Hidden Power, Hyper Beam, Protect, Rest, Return, Round, Sleep Talk, Substitute, Snore, Swagger, Toxic

The "universal" water starter moves: Work Up, Water Pledge, Hydro Cannon

These moves are banned from inclusion in Final Submissions. Movepools that include any of these moves will not be considered for slating.

This list is subject to minor changes along the course of the thread.

The follow moves are all banned.

Recover and variants, Moonlight, Morning Sun, Synthesis, Shore Up, Wish
Baneful Bunker, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Coil, Disable, Lunge, Perish Song, Spikes, Spite, Taunt, Toxic Spikes,
Knock Off, Ice Punch, Poison-type coverage above 65, Electric-type coverage, Counter, Mirror Coat, Soak, Reflect, Light Screen, Encore, Earthquake

Note that any move which is competitively inferior to a mandatory move is allowed as an exception to the bans above unless explicitly stated otherwise. This includes things such a weaker versions of mandatory STAB and coverage moves.

Click here for a general guide to making Gen 6 Movepools. (outdated but still useful)
Click here for the list of Restricted Moves referenced above.

While this is a submission thread, discussion on Work-In-Progress (WIP) and Final Submissions is encouraged so the community can make an informed decision during the polling stage.

This thread will be open for submissions and discussion as soon as cbrevan posts his opening remarks.

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CAP 25 so far:

Topic Leader: reachzero

Topic Leadership Team:
EpicUmbreon29 - Typing
snake_rattler - Ability
jas61292 - Stats
cbrevan - Movepool

Granny Pie said:
Granny Pie said:

Name: Starter Trio CAPs

Description: This CAP is not one Pokemon, but three seperate Pokemon, based off of a Grass/Water/Fire starter trio.

Explanation: There is rarely such thing as a competitively viable starter Pokemon in the OU metagame, rare exceptions being Serperior, Greninja, and Blaziken for their insanely powerful abilities, and Infernape for his speed and movepool. Running three seperate CAP Processes with different Concepts can be loads of fun, and a nice way to celebrate CAP with our own starter trio! I'd love to see what the artists can come up with, and what pre-evos will be made alongside this trio, as well.
I've spoken to Birkal about this framework, and I've decided that this framework would definitely limit the Typing stage of each CAP, but not necessarily limit the Abilities stages, as Overgrow, Torrent, and Blaze aren't very competitively viable, and not necessarily limit the Stats stages, as starter trios tend not to share the same BSTs, giving us flexibility with where and how we want to place stats, especially with each "starter" most likely having a different concept from the others.

Possible Questions:
Is it possible to create a fully competitively viable Grass/Water/Fire trio?
What can be learned from a trio of Pokemon that will mostly likely check, if not counter, each other in a Rock Paper Scissors manner?
Exactly what does it take to create a fully competitively viable starter trio, something unprecedented in all of official, competitive Pokemon?

Of course, feedback is all but begged for as we work to flesh out this framework!

Click to expand...

Starter Fact Sheet

Deck Knight said:

Final Submission

Name - Astounding Ability Actualization (Triple A)

Description - These Pokemon each maximize the potential of their given, separate abilities by coordinating their movepools and that ability's competitive effect.

Justification - This is an Actualization concept much like Cyclohm's original "Neglected Ability." In my research on what made Pokemon with "Starter Level" stats effective, the common denominator was they all had abilities they used to full effect with their other competitive aspects. This framework gives us a unique opportunity to A-B test some fairly powerful abilities we usually shy away from and bring out an effective competitive starter trio.

Questions To Be Answered -

Which Abilities are best suited to a full, comprehensive exploration of their specific mechanics?

Why does Ability seem to be the common factor in taking "starter-esque" Pokemon into prominence (e.g. Protean and Battle Bond Greninja, Contrary Serperior, Speed Boost Blaziken to Ubers, etc.)

What is the threshold where maximizing an ability goes toi far, such as Blaziken's combination of Swords Dance, strong attack and mid-grade speed, and high BP STABS with Speed Boost or Protean Greninja's huge speed and just-varied enough movepool in prior Generations?

How will introducing three specialized Pokemon into the metagame at once impact it overall?

Which type combinations along with the starter types are best suited to maximizing the potential of a specific ability, and why?

Explanation - Competitive Pokemon has suffered from a massive power creep for a long time. In order for a Pokemon to be effective, not only does it have to be fairly good generally, it also can't be directly outclassed. Considering our Framework, our Pokemon are already competing against Heatran/Volcarona, Toxapex/Keldeo/Greninja, and Ferrothorn/Kartana for offensive or defensive roles. However, each of those Pokemon have their own flaws that give our FWG CAP Trio space to explore if we are focused on a key niche for each of them.

Let's take Grass for example, and Tough Claws. Tough Claws boosts one of the most incredibly CAP-relevant moves, Grass Knot, because it is a special contact attack. Only Mega Metagross ever even came close to utilizing this combination, and Mega-Meta was banned (for other reasons, of course). Grass could also use it's huge number of healing options with Triage, including priority Strength Sap that even outruns Bullet Punch. Nearly every Fire attack has a secondary effect chance perfect for Serene Grace or Sheer Force. Water has a few specific moves that would also love Serene Grace, but would also appreciate breaking through Gastrodon and Mollux with Mold Breaker. Suffice it to say, this concept gives us an ability to meet our Framework demands and think through a huge combination of synergistic types and abilities in a single project.

Click to expand...

Smokomodo

Typing: Fire/Ground
Threats and Counters: https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7870058
Abilities: Blaze/Technician
Stats: 88 HP / 116 Atk / 67 Def / 88 SpA / 78 SpD / 97 Spe

Caribolt

Typing: Grass/Electric
Threats and Counters: https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7875516
Abilities: Overgrow/Galvanize
Stats: 84 HP / 106 Atk / 82 Def / 77 SpA / 80 SpD / 106 Spe

Snaelstrom

Typing: Water/Bug
Threats and Counters: https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7872739
Abilities: Torrent/Poison Heal
Stats: 91 HP / 94 Atk / 110 Def / 80 SpA / 97 SpD / 63 Spe

cbrevan · Oct 18, 2018

Welcome to movepool submissions for Snaelstrom! In this thread we will create submissions for Snaelstrom's movepool to determine what moves it will have available to it. At the end of this thread I'll compile a slate of all the legal entries for us to vote on, so make sure you carefully read the thread OP for submission instructions.

This is a flavour stage first and foremost, so feel free to delve as deep into trends, lore, and what not when making your post. My only requirement for the flavour part of this stage is that posters take the time to explain their decisions when choosing what moves to add and moves to neglect in their movepool. I won't slate movepools that lack reasoning, and you're better off giving an explanation anyways since thats something voters will look for.

While this is a flavor stage, there is a minor competitive aspect to it in that the banned moves list is not all encompassing. I'm sure some people have noticed that moves such as Quiver Dance are not banned- this is intentional. It's not possible for the TLT to ban every single competitive move, which is why we'll handle moves as they are submitted. The general rule for this stage is that posters should exercise common sense when building movepools and avoid moves that are competitively viable in nature. I'll define competitively viable moves as moves that are able to interact with our threatlist with noticeable results, so if you're unsure about a move, take a look at the threatlist and ask yourself what matchups it may swing. If you're unsure, tag me in the thread and I'll give a ruling. If you think a move banned this way should be allowed, I'm also willing to hear appeals posted in the thread.

Make sure you include all the mandatory moves in the OP, including the universal and starter moves for this stage. Likewise, double check to make sure your movepool lacks any of the banned moves listed in the OP. Also make sure you put Final Submission on your movepool before the thread closes. I hate disqualifying good movepools for such a simple mistake and I'll do my best to check movepools prior to the deadline, but keep in mind that I'll be managing three threads and could very well miss something. Check your own movepools to be safe!

Some nice users compiled a spreadsheet showing move trends among starters that might be a nice resources for some to look at: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...5XOgEDK_YLpwvtD5KfYg4K3Pfo/edit#gid=671991955

With all that said, lets get these submissions open! I wish everyone good luck with their submissions.

wadusher · Oct 19, 2018

WIP

hs Dive
hs Hydro pump
hs Whirlpool
evo spiky shield
1 Pound
1 Withdraw
6 Bubble
8 Bide
9 Bubble Beam
13 Aqua ring
16 Aqua jet
18 Struggle bug
22 Rock throw
24 Double slap
26 Brine
29 Protect
32 Bug Buzz
35 Psybeam
38 Muddy Water
41 Healing Wish
45 Razor shell
49 Mirror coat
54 Hydro pump

Subtotal: 23(2 duplicates)

Draining Kiss
Fairy Wind
Baby doll Eyes

Possible Water/Fairy prevo

Sticky web - Araquanid*, Ribombee*
Psycho shift - Togetic*
Wide guard - Araquanid
Counter - Pyukumuku
Mist - Quagsire, Pelipper, Masquerain, Empoleon
Haze - Quagsire, Masquerain, Greninja
Heal pulse - Audino, Alomomola, Aromatisse, Clawitzer, Slowpoke
Moonblast - Clefable, Florges, Aromatisse, Carbink, Primarina
Rapid spin - Blastoise

Subtotal: 9

TM01 Work Up
TM06 Toxic
TM07 Hail
TM10 Hidden Power
TM14 Ice beam
TM15 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM27 Return
TM29 Psychic
TM32 Double Team
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM49 Echoed Voice
TM55 Scald
TM56 Fling
TM68 Giga Impact
TM75 Swords Dance
TM77 Psych up
TM83 Infestation
TM86 Grass knot
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
TM92 Trick Room
TM94 Surf
TM98 Waterfall
TM100 Confide

Subtotal: 33

Snore
Icy wind
Stealth rock
Liquidation
Magic Coat
Signal Beam
Big Bite
Block
Water Pulse
Ally Switch
Water Pledge
Hydro Cannon
Pain Split
Helping Hand
Magic Room
Ice Punch

Celebrate*

Subtotal: 16

Total: 81 moves

Celebrate events:
(TBD)

*A ROM hack has the potential to include in-game means of obtaining this move on starters, like a special move tutor teaching it as a reward for, say, completing the regional pokedex. I also don't see a ROM hack using mystery gift or some equivalent much. As a result, I put it in move tutors. This would remove incompatibilities between Celebrate and Egg moves, but if there's important reasons to keep those incompatabilities, it may be removed from move tutors.

LucarioOfLegends · Oct 19, 2018

Final Submission

Bolded is required moves

HS- Spiky Shield
HS-Poison Fang
Evo- Leech Life
1- Tackle
1- Water Gun
1- Leer
1- Withdraw
4- Leer (R)
7- Withdraw
9- Bug Bite
13- Bide
15- Aqua Ring
19- Water Pulse
23- Refresh
26- Acid Armor
30- Aqua Jet
35- Brine
39- Body Slam
44- Liquidation
51- Whirlpool
56- Double-Edge
60- Hydro Pump

Unique move count: 20

Acid Spray (Arbok, Skuntank)
Haze (Quagsire, Surskit)
Poison Fang (Seviper, Nidorina)
Psycho Shift (Swoobat, Spinda, Smeargle) woo alliteration
Rapid Spin (Blastoise, Sandslash)
Wide Guard (Carracosta, Mantine)
Crunch (Pyroar, Lycanroc)

Unique move count: 7

TM01 Work Up
TM06 Toxic
TM07 Hail
TM09 Venoshock
TM10 Hidden Power
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM27 Return
TM28 Leech Life
TM32 Double Team
TM41 Torment
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM49 Echoed Voice
TM55 Scald
TM66 Payback
TM68 Giga Impact
TM75 Swords Dance
TM83 Infestation
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
TM92 Trick Room
TM94 Surf
TM96 Nature Power
TM98 Waterfall
TM100 Confide

Unique Move Count: 33

Hydro Cannon
Water Pledge
Aqua Tail
Block
Bug Bite
Gastro Acid
Hydro Cannon
Icy Wind
Iron Defense
Liquidation
Snore
Stealth Rock
Trick
Water Pledge
Water Pulse

Unique Move count: 12

Snaelstrom @ Bottle Cap
Level 50
Ability: Poison Heal
Bold Nature
Met: Apparently a fateful encounter at CAP25
-Celebrate
-Hold Hands
-Liquidation
-Metronome

Unique Moves Count: 3

Total Unique Moves: 75

I generally took a lot of inspiration from the designs source material, the Giant Triton Snail. Turns out these things actually hunt the real life equivalent of Toxapex, so I thought I would run with that here, hence some of the Poison-type flavor. However, considering that Toxapex are dangerous predators for Corsola and generally reefs in mons, I think it would be best if Snaelstrom had a few protective things to it to fully benefit the ecosystem, hence Refresh, Wide Guard, and Nature Power.

Still, I thought to take on a lot of the "maelstrom" in Snaelstrom, which usually results in chaotic movement and violent turmoil. Snael also has suprisingly decent attack, so it makes sense for it to be at least a little more aggressive. The biting flavor was something I specifically chose with Crunch, Bug Bite, and Leech Life, as it pretty much just kinda eats most of the time.

Dogfish44 · Oct 19, 2018

Final Submission

I've opted to take Snaelstrom in the direction of "Mystical Dancer" - think Fire Emblem's Olivia, but with less speed, more graceful movements. I felt that the combination of needing a baseline mysticism for Psycho Shift to make sense (Spinda is probably the closest connection - and even then has a surprising number of Psychic options), alongside needing moves like Swords Dance made this the ideal direction.

Evo. Liquidation
HS Liquidation (R)
HS Aqua Ring
HS Rapid Spin
HS Whirlpool
HS Attract
0 Pound
0 Water Gun
0 Growl
0 Struggle Bug
5 Growl (R)
8 Struggle Bug (R)
11 Charm
14 Confusion
17 Aqua Jet
22 Heal Pulse
27 Brine
32 Rain Dance
40 U-Turn
44 Psychic
48 Bug Buzz
56 Captivate
60 Hydro Pump
64 Swords Dance

Snail Influenches
With our Snail-ish design, I wanted to use Fibonacci Numbers (which are related to matters like snail shells) in our movepool. Moves are learnt 3 levels apart, then 5 levels apart, and then an 8-4-4 pattern (blocks of 8... with some room added for a couple of moves to squeeze in without pushing levels too far up ^^;). Presumed evolution points of 17 and 34 (Fibonacci number!), though there is flexibility available there. Started from Level 5 (Fibbonacci!), since otherwise you hit 4 moves a smidgen early for my tastes.

Mystical Vibes
Looking at Snaelstrom, you can almost hear it, in a royal princess voice, saying "I'm better than you.". It's probably not wrong, so I've enshrined this idea through a few Psychic moves - Confusion, Psychic, and Heal Pulse. This not only plays up the princess angle, but it also lays out the framework for Snaelstrom to pick up Psycho Shift down the line.

Dancing Queen, Young and Sweet, Only Seventeen~
Now that you've been blessed with some ABBA, let's talk one of my major thematic choices: The Dancer. Snaelstrom is certainly no stranger to a ballroom floor, and I've built on these themes throughout, with "Dance" moves (Swords/Rain), as well as Rapid "Spin" and a U- "Turn". This pulls the movepool together, and gives Snaelstrom a full role, in the way that Gen 6 and Gen 7 starters each feel like an RPG character - there is a specific reason I focussed on Fire Emblem's Olivia earlier.

As a dancer, there is more than just body langugage though! Threaded throughout the movepool are moves which lend a slightly flirty nature, in Charm, Captivate, and Attract.

Under the sea! Under the sea! Darling it's better, down where it's wetter, take it from me!
Huh, apparently I've got the Little Mermaid on the mind. I wanted to emphasise some oceanic themes in Snaelstrom's movepool - very much in like with the coral reef aesthetics. I have hence made room to include Brine and Whirlpool (also known as a maelstrom), alongside the more general water moves.

Singing Bug
I've not included a massive amount of Bug moves - which for Gen 7 is actually pretty expected, if you take a look at something like Primarina - there's Fairy moves, but it's not overwhelming, and more time is given to the idea of 'singing' than dedicated fairy moves. Speaking of singing, I've opted to give Snaelstrom a movepool which uses it's bug coverage to emphasise dancing (U-Turn) and also singing, in Struggle Bug and Bug Buzz. This ties into the idea of a singer/dancer that I've worked to establish.

Egg Groups: Water 1 / Fairy
Acid Armor (Gastrodon)
Powder (Ribombee)
Psycho Shift (Togekiss)
Spiky Shield (Togedemaru)
Spotlight (Clefable)
Sticky Web (Ribombee)

Egg Groups
These were fun to pick! So, the first place where you look with a Snail would be Amorphous, however as I was considering egg groups, I felt that we were closer in structure to Goodra than Gastrodon - definitely a solid build, with matters like distinct arms. As such, Amorphous was discarded as an idea.

This left room to emphasise the regal aspect I built upon with the Fairy egg group. I then felt a mental argument between Water 1 and Water 3. Water 3 in theory contains some invertebrates, but it also has a heavy fossil emphasis (Archeops, I mean what), whilst Water 1 has mons like Pyukumuku and Gastrodon, cementing me into Water 1

Acid Armor
This is a weirdly named move - the Japanese transliteration is Liquefy - but it is a move that is notably common to mons with a more Amorphous build (even if not in that exact egg group), and is seen on the likes of Slugma, Goomy, and Shellos, all by Egg Move. It also helps play up the 'Poison Heal' aspect of Snaelstrom via the Poison typing of the move.

Powder
This is my one required 'cute' flavour move. I wanted to play up the idea of a dancer applying their makeup before a show ~~no I don't watch too much Drag Race...~~, and 'Powder' makes complete sense for that imagery, whilst giving a bit more Bug imagery than the LU movepool has room for.

Psycho Shift
Psycho Shift has some bizarre movepool distribution. For instance, it appears on almost as many Flying types as it does Psychic types - and that number definitely tilts in Flying's favour once you remove the Legendaries. As such, Psycho Shift tends to be best described as a move that's biased towards "Mystical Pokemon, with a strong freedom of movement" - from flying types like Noctowl and Xatu, to a Spinda who's movepool is both surprisingly mystical, and also emphasises dancing and constantly moving. Given the 'mystical dancer' thematics I've embedded into Snaelstrom (like with Spinda, but with less... uh... Spindaness), I think we can justify Psycho Shift well.

Spiky Shield
Spiky Shield is really easy to visualise on Snaelstrom, as coral reefs are hardly smooth to hit - they are jagged, and really easy to scratch yourself against.

Spotlight
Spotlight plays into my mystical dancer theme a bit more. Consider how to make a dancer look more impressive: Shine a Spotlight upon them, making them the sole focus of your attention.

Sticky Web
Many ways to try to justify Sticky Web on a mon who doesn't really have the arachnid theming that you'd expect - and we're hardly a mon that's defined by being literally sticky (which I assume is where the Swirlix line grabs the move from). However, corals are capable of producing stringy mesenterial filaments, and I don't think it's a long stretch for Snaelstrom's reef to produce a variant which is very sticky, rather than stingy.

TM01 Work Up
TM06 Toxic
TM07 Hail
TM09 Venoshock
TM10 Hidden Power
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance (R)
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM27 Return
TM28 Leech Life
TM29 Psychic (R)
TM32 Double Team
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract (R)
TM48 Round
TM49 Echoed Voice
TM55 Scald
TM68 Giga Impact
TM75 Swords Dance (R)
TM83 Infestation
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn (R)
TM90 Substitute
TM92 Trick Room
TM94 Surf
TM98 Waterfall
TM99 Dazzling Gleam
TM100 Confide

A mix of bug and water thematics, with a handful of moves to imply a mystical connection, such as Safeguard and (the required) Trick Room.

Given we do have a baseline of 'Poison' flavour in Poison Heal, I've also added Venoshock, which is universal on Pokemon with Poison Heal (yes that's only Shroomish/Breloom/Gliscor, it's still notable :P). Whilst Sludge Bomb and Wave are both banned options, Venoshock is fine, and it's actually surprisingly common for Bug-types to grab it without grabbing the Sludge moves - see Heracross (who doesn't even get Poison Jab o_O), Scizor, and Beautifly as examples, though there are a few others as well.

Block
Bug Bite
Helping Hand
Hydro Cannon
Hyper Voice
Icy Wind
Liquidation (R)
Magic Coat
Magic Room
Signal Beam
Snore
Stealth Rock
Trick
Uproar
Water Pledge
Water Pulse
Wonder Room

I wanted to pad out with 'Room' moves and generally add to our mystic vibes, in addition to adding a mix of standard Water/Bug moves. Oh, and Stealth Rock, which is madatory.

CAP 25 Celebration

Snaelstrom @ Bottle Cap
Level 50
Ability: Random
Nature: Random
OT: Cooper
ID: 003089
Met: 2018 Celebration CAP (fateful encounter)
Ribbon: Souvenir Ribbon
- Celebrate
- Liquidation
- Leech Life
- Metronome

Celebrate to mark the event, Liquidation as the 'Sig' move, Leech Life is complementary STAB, and Metronome is for consistency with our current CAP with event moves, Kerfluffle. Bottle Cap (Japanese: Silver Bottle Cap) is derived from CAP25, the Silver Anniversary of sorts. OT: Cooper harks back to the originator of CAP, Cooper, with the ID being their Smogon user number.

Acid Armor
Aqua Jet
Aqua Ring
Attract
Blizzard
Block
Brine
Bug Bite
Bug Buzz
Captivate
Celebrate
Charm
Confide
Confusion
Dazzling Gleam
Double Team
Echoed Voice
Facade
Frustration
Giga Impact
Growl
Hail
Heal Pulse
Helping Hand
Hidden Power
Hydro Cannon
Hydro Pump
Hyper Beam
Hyper Voice
Ice Beam
Icy Wind
Infestation
Leech Life
Liquidation
Magic Coat
Magic Room
Metronome
Pound
Powder
Protect
Psychic
Psycho Shift
Rain Dance
Rapid Spin
Rest
Return
Round
Safeguard
Scald
Signal Beam
Sleep Talk
Snore
Spiky Shield
Spotlight
Stealth Rock
Sticky Web
Struggle Bug
Substitute
Surf
Swagger
Swords Dance
Toxic
Trick
Trick Room
U-Turn
Uproar
Venoshock
Water Gun
Water Pledge
Water Pulse
Waterfall
Whirlpool
Wonder Room
Work Up

icy_hot · Oct 19, 2018

Final Submission

Bolded - Mandatory Moves
Italized - Repeats

HS- Spiky Shield
HS- Whirlpool
Evo- Extrasensory
1- Pound
1- Withdraw
1- Water Gun
1- Bug Bite
4- Bug Bite
9- Struggle Bug
11- Aqua Ring
15- Water Pulse
19- Body Slam
24- Protect
28- Nature Power
33- Brine
38- Rapid Spin
44- Muddy Water
49- Whirlpool
55- Psycho Shift
60- Hydro Pump

Unique Moves: 19
Total Moves: 20

Explanation:
Level-up vaguely similar to Primarina.
Standard water type moves like Water Gun, Brine, etc also with few bug moves.
Other moves are defensive moves to show it protective powers.
Whirlpool added to show it maelstrom namesake.
Nature Power for its corals.
Extrasensory to showcase its psychic skills.

Confusion
Clear Smog

Unique Moves: 2

TM01- Work Up
TM06- Toxic
TM07- Hail
TM10- Hidden Power
TM13- Ice Beam
TM14- Blizzard
TM15- Hyper Beam
TM17- Protect
TM18- Rain Dance
TM20- Safeguard
TM21- Frustration
TM27- Return
TM28- Leech Life
TM29- Psychic
TM32- Double Team
TM42- Facade
TM44- Rest
TM45- Attract
TM48- Round
TM49- Echoed Voice
TM55- Scald
TM56- Fling
TM68- Giga Impact
TM75- Sword Dance
TM77- Psych Up
TM83- Infestation
TM87- Swagger
TM88- Sleep Talk
TM89- U-Turn
TM90- Substitute
TM92- Trick Room
TM94- Surf
TM96- Nature Power
TM98- Waterfall
TM99- Dazzling Gleam
TM100- Confide

Total Moves: 36
Unique Moves: 34

Explanation:
Other than the mandatory moves I added the move Psychic to showcase it's psychic ability since it can learn Trick Room.
Dazzling Gleam for its majestic corals.

Ally Switch
Aqua Tail
Block
Bug Bite
Gastro Acid
Heal Bell
Helping Hand
Hyper Voice
Icy Wind
Iron Defense
Liquidation
Magic Coat
Pain Split
Signal Beam
Snore
Stealth Rock
Uproar
Water Pulse
Wonder Room
Zen Headbutt

Water Pledge
Hydro Cannon

Total Moves: 22
Unique Moves: 20

Explanation:
Supportive moves like Ally Switch, Heal Bell, etc for the supportive nature.
Gastro Acid for the sea snail aspects.
Zen Headbutt and Wonder Room for psychic powers.
Block for the its size.

Bug/Water 1

Acid Armor (Gastrodon, Dragalge)
Amnesia (Quagsire, Golduck)
Aqua Jet (Golduck, Primarina)
Bug Buzz (Venomoth, Yanmega)
Haze ( Quagsire, Greninja)
Purify (Pyukumuku)
Sticky Web (Shuckle, Galvantula)

Total Moves: 7

Explanation:
I chose Bug for its Bug typing while Water 1 is a common water starter egg groups.
Just 7 moves since the gen VII starters have 6/7 egg moves.
Purify for cleansing skills.
Bug Buzz for its bug type stab.

Ability: Random
Nature: Random

1.Celebration
2.Hold Back
3.Liquidation
4.Spiky Shield

Unique Moves: 2

Explanation:
Just CAP celebration for the new starters

Total Unique Moves: 84

Madsi6 · Oct 19, 2018

Final Submission

Bold moves are mandatory moves.

HS: Psycho Shift
HS: Liquidation (Relearner)
HS: Venom Drench
1: Pound
1: Growl
1: Fury Cutter
1: Water Gun
Evo: Spiky Shield
5: Withdraw
8: Aqua Jet
11: Bug Bite
15: Rapid Spin
19: Spider Web
24: Psywave
30: Silver Wind
37: Scald
44: Signal Beam
49: Screech
55: Toxic Thread
59: Bug Buzz
61: Liquidation
65: Megahorn
70: Hydro Pump

As a starter, and a general pokemon, it's expected to go from weak moves to strong moves, with some interesting moves in between, and that's the process i followed, going for a mix between bug and water, physical and special, given it's ability to run both.
With the addition of the late level 40 lowering status move (Credit to Dogfish44 for the idea) it allows it to follow a trend which all gen 7 starters do, plus it has access to a few unique moves like toxic thread and spiky shield, both being signature/ex-signature status moves, and i think both fit on Snaelstrom quite well, spiky shield for the corals on the back, and toxic thread for again for its coral spikes, which made me think of sea anemone and their poisonous venom, allowing Snaelstrom to have the possiblity of utilizing something similar, maybe inside it's shell on the back. This was also the reason for adding venom drench, to utilize psycho shift and poison to both wear down enemies, and cripple them, as that's really the job of a wall, and i felt it could be an interesting way of doing it, however despite the power, it either requires you to sacrifice 2 moves on a niche set, or have a toxic spikes pokemon in the back, so it's 2 slots for a niche, which i think is balanced.
I also gave it psywave to further its psychic capabilities with already having psycho shift and zen headbutt (See move tutor moves) plus it allows for consistent damage output from a bulky pokemon, while not seismic tosses 100 damage, it's 50-150 at level 100. Bronzong has already been seen utilizing psywave quite well, so i don't think it's a bad move.
All in all a standard movepool build up for pokemons in my eyes with a few nifty things here and there.

Sticky web: (Surskit, Dewpider, Araquanid)
Dive: (Relicanth, Seel, Dewgong, Huntail, Gorebyss)
Acid Armor: (Shellos, Gastrodon, Skrelp, Dragalge)
Curse: (Slowpoke, Slowbro, Slowking, Turtwig, Grotle, Torterra, Bidoof, Bibarel, Tirtouga, Carracosta, Bergmite, Avalugg, Pyukumuku)
Haze: (Squirtle, Wartortle, Blastoise, Poliwag, Poliwhirl, Poliwrath, Wooper, Quagsire, Politoed, Surskit, Masquerain, Amaura, Aurorus)
Pin Missile: (Mareanie, Toxapex)
Wide Guard: (Mantine, Tirtouga, Carracosta, Alomomola, Avalugg, Mareanie, Toxapex, Araquanid, Mudkip, Wingull, Turtwig, Turtonator)

Egg moves are quite important, allowing a pokemon to breed for important moves, and Snaelstrom's egg moves are no different.
Giving it the water 1 egg group was pretty standard, and is no big surprise. The monster group however is quite an interesting one, but i think it fits.
From what i could find, the monster egg group appears to be based off of saurian/kaiju-like creates, and in english it stands for 'Strange Beasts' and i think Snaelstrom fits this pretty well, while yes it's a sea slug/snail, i don't think it's too farfetch'd (Pun intended) to put it in that egg group.
The moves it learns are generally meant for helping it in battle, well maybe not dive as much, but i thought it would make sense, given it's a sea creature, while the others gives the appearance of some slimy creature with a hard shell, which fits Snaelstrom quite well in my eyes, along with allowing it access to z-haze, giving it a full restore (While it is recovery, it's a one-time use and you loose a team z-move and poison heal with toxic orb) allowing it to return back into the fight.
Post edit: Hawk1113 wanted more justification for haze, and my reasoning is that Snaelstrom relies on set-up to beat alot of pokemons, mainly in the form of swords dance, but maybe curse too. However counter set-up can break Snaelstrom easily, given that the moveset i chose lacking ways to boost special defense, allowing it to be swiftly brough down to powerful special attackers with calm mind or nasty plot. Haze makes sense in that you loose your way of beating them in a few hits, but so do they, making it a high risk move, but a rewarding one if you can use it correctly.
Alot of pokemons can use effective set-up and may try to set up on Snaelstrom since it's medium attack/sp. atk may allow bulkier pokemons free set-up, of course toxic or scald burns are possible, but like toxapex, haze allows it to prevent from being overpowered by set-up, however toxapex doesn't have good set-up moves but good recovery, Snaelstrom is the opposite, but both can do wonders if timed correctly, plus z-haze giving a full heal allows for Snaelstrom to be fully healed, and the cost of remote healing (toxic orb + poison heal) so i don't think it's that bad, especially with only leech life and passive recovery with poison heal, having a full heal can come in handy.

TM01: Work Up
TM05: Roar
TM06: Toxic
TM10: Hidden Power
TM13: Ice Beam
TM14: Blizzard
TM15: Hyper Beam
TM17: Protect
TM18: Rain Dance
TM21: Frustration
TM27: Return
TM28: Leech Life
TM31: Brick Break
TM32: Double Team
TM42: Facade
TM44: Rest
TM45: Attract
TM48: Round
TM52: Focus Blast
TM55: Scald
TM68: Giga Impact
TM75: Swords Dance
TM81: X-Scissor
TM83: Infestation
TM87: Swagger
TM88: Sleep Talk
TM89: U-Turn
TM90: Substitute
TM92: Trick Room
TM94: Surf
TM98: Waterfall
TM100: Confide

Pretty standard spread of tm's in my eyes, with alot of the moves being standard tm moves for fully evolved pokemons, with the inclusion of work up being for starters.
Alot of its other moves are either stab, requirements, or useful moves, however a few note-able entries are blizzard, brick break, focus blast and explosion.
Blizzard: Stronger than ice beam which was a required move, however it's accuracy makes up for it, doesn't severely change damage output due to it's mediocre base 80 special attack, but still allows it to work in hail/aurora veil as a offensive pokemon with defensive capabilities.
Brick Break: I originally had drain punch as a movetutor move, but the goal of Snaelstorm is to have a defensive pokemon with recovery in pretty much poison heal and leech life, so i decided to replace it with brick break, same power, but instead of recovery it removes opposing screens. Brick break isn't that good of coverage as it sounds like, since the only check/counter it hits for super effective damage is Ferrothorn, but it doesn't even 3 hit ko ferrothorn after leftovers, and has a chance to 5 hit ko with leech seed, while ferrothorn does about the same, 0.4% chance to 4 shot with power whip, so it doesn't provide much usage outside of coverage.
Focus Blast: Like blizzard, a strong coverage move with low accuracy, and outside of ferrothorn (Which 3 shots, and if it has been leech seeded, 0.5% chance to 3 shot), it doesn't have much practical use for it's checks and counters, so i thought it was nice for coverage on the special side.
Explosion: This was/is a risky move to put on it, allowing it a huge nuke to just blast something back, however unless enemies switch in, it doesn't really kill anything that doesn't kill it first, so while yes it deals with some checks and counters, you loose your poke in the process, so a high risk high reward, however you're much better off using explosion with a pokemon like landorus-t who can take a hit due to intimidate, and explode on them.
Quick note all of the ferro calcs were done using the OU hazard setter spread.

Water Pledge
Hydro Cannon
Snore
Bug Bite
Recycle
Signal Beam
Stealth Rock
Iron Defense
Icy Wind
Zen Headbutt
Liquidation
Gastro Acid
Hyper Voice

Nothing really special here, just either requirements or useful moves, since most movetutor moves are either too strong for Snaelstrom (Power or coverage wise), or they're weaker but has other uses, examples being icy wind lowering speed, signal beam for confusion, bug bite to steal berries etc, so i gave it a mix of a few good moves that doesn't break it's coverage too much, yet still has some funky uses like recycle and gastro acid, plus also having hyper voice for a baseline special move to hit almost any type for neutral damage.

Razor Shell (2nd stage, level 41)
Whirlpool (1st stage, level 17)
Rage Powder (2nd stage, level 32)
Purify (2nd stage, level 56)
I imagine evolution at level 16 and 36 or so.
If pre-set levels aren't allowed, please disregard them, it was just my thought

Nothing too special here, razor shell because of the shell on it's back, and for the defense drops. Whirlpool for trapping and damage over time. Rage powder for doubles *Cough cough pls do cap team cough cough ;)* and Purify for a nifty toxic + purify healing set.

Snaelstrom @ Gold Bottle Cap
Level 50
Ability: Poison Heal
Nature: Random
OT: Cochlea
ID: 117211
Met: Sil Cavena (fateful encounter)
Ribbon: Souvenier Ribbon
- Celebrate
- Spiky Shield
- Liquidation
- Leech Life

Just what i imagine for a CAP celebration event.

Like alot of other people, celebrate was a move choice because it's the 25th cap and it's a special celebration cap, so it fits well. The rest of the moves are just for an event set.
The OT is the latin word for snail, and is also the part in your ear responsible for turning the vibrations in the air into nerve impulses, which i only realised after i went and translated snail into latin and googled it, so yeah, you learn something new everyday (And a funny coincidence)
The ID Is based off the alphabetical location of aqua, the latin word for water
The location was the word snail cave reworked (na from the middle of snail moved to the end of cave) totally not an accident that just happened and looked interesting (Okay you got me, it was)

Total Moves: 75 Unique - 83 Total

Acid Armor
Attract
Aqua Jet
Blizzard
Brick Break
Bug Bite
Bug Buzz
Celebrate
Confide
Curse
Dive
Double Team
Facade
Focus Blast
Frustration
Fury Cutter
Gastro Acid
Giga Impact
Growl
Haze
Hidden Power
Hydro Cannon
Hydro Pump
Hyper Beam
Hyper Voice
Ice Beam
Icy Wind
Infestation
Iron Defense
Leech Life
Liquidation
Megahorn
Pin Missile
Pound
Protect
Psycho Shift
Psywave
Purify
Rage Powder
Rain Dance
Rapid Spin
Razor Shell
Recycle
Rest
Return
Roar
Round
Scald
Screech
Signal Beam
Silver Wind
Sleep Talk
Snore
Spider Web
Spiky Shield
Stealth Rock
Sticky Web
Substitute
Surf
Swagger
Swords Dance
Trick Room
Toxic Thread
Toxic
U-Turn
Venom Drench
Water Gun
Water Pledge
Waterfall
Whirlpool
Wide Guard
Withdraw
Work Up
X-Scissor
Zen Headbutt

This was quite an interesting choice to work on, and given it's few, but important move limitations, it was a challenge to try and balance Snaelstrom, while still allowing it some great moves to fit it's playstyle, which i deem a physically defensive pokemon, with decent offensive presence, with lackluster recovery allowing it to be worn down over time, however due to poison heal and access to psycho shift, there's a good chance it can take others down with it while still taking hits. To most effectively use snaelstorm, use it as a ground/water type switch in and threaten them with some powerful moves. Using clerics with wish support will really help Snaelstrom stay alive longer, however be careful since if you loose your toxic orb, heal bell/aromatherapy which are 2 common cleric moves becomes a last ditch effort, unless you can predict a toxic or a poison-type move with a chance to poison from the opponent.
This was definitely a fun challenge, and i hope you consider this, and i hope i explained my reasoning for some of the moves very well, or atleast so you can tell where i was going.

Thank you for reading my submission, if i forgot any requirements, accidentally added any restricted moves, or you have an idea to add to the movepool i suggested let me know, and if you wanna go ahead and submit your own based off of my moveset, please credit me and you're free to copy this, the goal is not to be the sole victor, it's to design a moveset around this incredible pokemon :)
This is my first time ever doing something like this, so i hope i didn't mess up alot. I've been fan of CAP for quite a while but i haven't been able to help since i haven't been on smogon much, but i hope this is something i can change and help more
Thanks for reading
~Madsi6

EndlessGadgets · Oct 19, 2018

I've seen some moves in movepools posted so far that I'm not sure should be allowed on Snaelstrom, or at the very least warrant discussion and a legality check. I will include Pokémon from our checks and counters list that these threaten in parentheses.
These are the following: Haze, Pain Split, Acid Spray, Trick, Poison Coverage (Jumbao, Tapu Koko, and Tapu Fini), Psychic Coverage (Mollux, Plasmanta, and Arghonaut), Fairy Coverage (Arghonaut and Pajantom), Superpower (Ferrothorn and Naviathan), Shell Smash, Rock Coverage (Tornadus-T, Zapdos, Pelipper, and Mollux), Belly Drum, Knock Off, Ground Coverage (Tapu Koko, Krilowatt, Cyclohm, Naviathan, Mollux, Plasmanta, and Toxapex), Rock Polish, Thunder Punch (Gyarados, Naviathan, Tornadus-T, Pelipper, Tapu Fini, Azumarill, and Arghonaut)

Warren685 · Oct 19, 2018

These moves are fine, they either won't be run since there's been already establish sets that Snaelstrom will be better off running or they won't make a difference since things like Argh or Torn will shrug off things like Thunder punch and KO/Wall Snaelstrom so our counters won't change that much. You seem to be overreacting since this is a flavor stage, most of the moves here won't have much of any competitive impression here.

Frostbiyt · Oct 19, 2018

Final Submission

Bolded Moves are Mandatory
Moves with strike-through are repeats and are not counted in the totals

HS - Spiky Shield
HS - Aqua Jet
HS - Psycho Shift
HS - Psychic
1 - Pound
1 - Twineedle
1 - Withdraw
1 - Water Gun
~~Evo -~~ ~~Spiky Shield~~
~~4 -~~ ~~Withdraw~~
~~8 -~~ ~~Water Gun~~
11 - Rollout
16 - Bug Bite
19 - Heart Stamp
24 - Poison Fang
27 - Water Pulse
31 - Rock Blast
35 - Razor Shell
38 - Psyshock
42 - Leech Life
51 - Hydro Pump
58 - Power Gem

Total: 19
Before I get into explaining the reasoning for specific moves, I'd like to give some information about the animal that inspired Snaelstrom's design. To paraphrase the artist Pipotchi, the design is based on the Triton snail which is a large snail that is known to prey on starfish, notably the crown-of-thorns starfish that Toxapex is based on which is infamous for destroying large portions of coral reefs.

The Triton's feeding habits were a big inspiration for the level up moves I chose. From Wikipedia: "The triton grips its prey with its muscular foot and uses its toothy radula (a serrated, scraping organ found in gastropods) to saw through the starfish's armoured skin. Once it has penetrated, a paralyzing saliva subdues the prey and the snail feeds at leisure" This was the inspiration for including Bug Bite, Poison Fang, and Leech Life as I felt they fit the described behavior well even if it doesn't technically have teeth or fangs.

Another aspect of the Triton's feeding behavior jumped out at me as well. From Wikipedia: "[Tritons] will spit out any poisonous spines, shells, or other unwanted parts later." This is why I included Twineedle. Rock Blast could also fit this behavior.

Another aspect of the design that I focused on was the shell. Withdraw was the obvious early game status move to go with and I felt that Spiky Shield made sense as the evo move as it plays into the most significant physical aspect of Snaelstrom's design. I also felt that adding rock coverage fit with the shell due to the rocky look it has and the coral that is growing on it.

Psycho Shift was almost required to be a level up move since it can't be learned via TM or Tutor and none of the Pokemon that learn it naturally are in egg groups that would make sense with Snaelstrom's design. Because of this I felt that some Psychic moves were needed to further justify its inclusion as the only non Psychic Pokemon to learn Psycho Shift by level up, Noctowl, has a lot of Psychic moves in its level up movepool.

For the evo move, I wanted it to be both a move I felt fit the Pokemon and one that could be used competitively. And in this case I chose an attack that also tied in with the hidden ability.

TM 01 - Work Up
TM 06 - Toxic
TM 07 - Hail
TM 10 - Hidden Power
TM 13 - Ice Beam
TM 14 - Blizzard
TM 15 - Hyper Beam
TM 17 - Protect
TM 18 - Rain Dance
TM 21 - Frustration
TM 27 - Return
~~TM 28 -~~ ~~Leech Life~~
TM 32 - Double Team
TM 37 - Sandstorm
TM 42 - Facade
TM 44 - Rest
TM 45 - Attract
TM 48 - Round
TM 55 - Scald
TM 56 - Fling
TM 68 - Giga Impact
TM 75 - Swords Dance
TM 83 - Infestation
TM 87 - Swagger
TM 88 - Sleep Talk
TM 89 - U-turn
TM 90 - Substitute
TM 92 - Trick Room
TM 94 - Surf
TM 98 - Waterfall
TM 100 - Confide

Toral: 30

Water 1 / Amorphous

Rapid Spin (Blastoise)
Sticky Web (Araquanid)
Wide Guard (Araquanid)
Acid (Seismitoad)
Venom Drench (Muk)
Heal Pulse (Alomomola)
Pin Missile (Toxapex)

Total: 7
There were a few moves that I thought fit Snaelstrom well but couldn't find room for in the level up moves, so I included them here.

Snore
Water Pulse
Water Pledge
Icy Wind
Hydro Cannon
Liquidation
Stealth Rock
Magic Room
Skill Swap
Trick
Wonder Room
Gastro Acid
Signal Beam

Total: 13
I felt that Magic Room and Wonder Room fit well with Trick Room and Trick makes sense for a Pokemon that is going to be holding a toxic orb all the time.

Snaelstrom @ Earth Plate
Level 50
Ability: Random
Nature: Random
OT: Cooper
ID: 003089
Met: 2018 Celebration CAP (fateful encounter)
Ribbon: Souvenir Ribbon
- Celebrate
- Silver Wind
- Heal Pulse
- Safeguard

Total: 4
Celebrate and Silver Wind are a reference to this being a celebration of CAP for its "silver anniversary". Cooper is the name of the user who started the CAP project and 003089 is their user number(thanks Dogfish). Much like my Christmas event for Caribolt, I decided to make a holiday themed event for Snaelstrom. For this CAP though I decided on Earth Day as the holiday because of Snaelstrom's connection to coral reefs which are threatened in the real world by climate change, which is one of the things Earth Day brings attention to.

Total: 73

Dogfish44 · Oct 20, 2018

Alright, so a few notes on what makes a realistic looking Gen 7 Starter Movepool, as well as notes from DHR-107 that help when it comes to making a starter in general. The aim of this post is to try to get our movepools looking as much like realistic Gen 7 starters as we can!

(Post approved by Quanyails. If there are errors in it, yell at me ^^; )

Starter Core Moves
Starters each historically in the Level Up movepool have a handful of moves they're guarenteed. These moves don't have to be in the final evo (Swampert for instance doesn't get Hydro Pump, and needs Mudkip on that front to get the move), but they have to either be there or within the pre-vo movepool.

To wit, these moves are as follows, courtesy of DHR;

CORE – ANY ONE OF Tackle/Scratch/Pound
ANY ONE OF Growl/Tail Whip/Leer/Withdraw

Grass – ANY OF Vine Whip/Razor Leaf/Leafage/Absorb/Leech Seed/Synthesis
ANY OF Mega Drain/Giga Drain/Energy Ball/Seed Bomb
First evo learns all moves before Level 50

Fire – ANY OF Ember
ANY OF Flame Wheel/Flame Burst/Flamethrower/Flare Blitz
First evo learn all moves before Level 50 (Apart from Cyndaquil)

Water – ANY OF Water Gun/Bubble
ANY OF Hydro Pump
First evo learns all moves before Level 50

This actually only mandates four moves for each type, but it's something that's very important in developing a starter movepool that's going to feel like a starter.

Generation Seven Specific Notes
Gen 7 Starters have a few quirks that can make your movepools truly gel with Primarina, Decidueye, and Incineroar.

I'd say the first one is something we should all try to follow, whilst the latter two are more general observations that are more easily breakable?

Heart Scale moves, Evolution Moves and Level 0 Moves
Starters have some fairly strict rules for these particular moves, which often need to be handled delicately...

First, let's break down what these terms mean. I've put that bit into this Hide Tag;

Evolution moves are a new thing - essentially, they are always learnt when a Pokemon evolves. A Weedle that evolves into a Kakuna will always learn Harden, regardless of if the evolution happens at Level 7 or Level 70.

Level 0 moves are essentially moves learnt at Level 0. Some websites will display this differently (Veekun uses a - to indicate these moves, whilst Bulbapedia marks them as being Level 1 moves, which is the same thing). These are the moves that would be learnt if you were to hatch an egg containing the Pokemon in questions.

We then have Heart Scale moves. These are Level 0 moves which are not in the final four Heart Scale moves. As an example, let's say we have a Pokemon with the following movepool:

0 Blast Burn
0 Giga Impact
0 Frenzy Plant
0 Hyper Beam
0 Hydro Cannon
0 Roar of Time

We would say that the Heart Scale moves are Blast Burn and Giga Impact. If you were to hatch an egg with that move setup, then you would hatch a Pokemon that has learnt Frenzy Plant, Hyper Beam, Hydro Cannon, and Roar of Time.

Now, there's a few simple rules that G7 starters all follow;

The Evo. move (usually a signature move) appears as the Evo. move, and then as a Heart Scale move
Excluding the Evo. move, starters have 0-4 Heart Scale moves (Decidueye has 4, Incineroar 2, and Primarina 0)
The four non-Heart Scale Level 0 rules are split into two pairs. The first two are the Level 0 moves for the Starter Prevos, the latter two are the first two moves the starter learns (Usually around level 4 and then level 8 or so).

Let's look at a worked example in Incineroar/Litten.

Litten's LU Movepool starts as such;

0 Scratch
0 Ember
4 Growl
8 Lick

Incineroar's LU Movepool starts as such;

Evo. Darkest Lariat
0 Darkest Lariat
0 Bulk Up
0 Throat Chop
0 Scratch
0 Ember
0 Growl
0 Lick
4 Growl
8 Lick

Notice how Incineroar repeats the Growl-Lick Pair, and has HS moves of Darkest Lariat, Bulk Up, and Throat Chop.

Capstone Move
Incineroar, Primarina, and Decidueye all have a 'capstone' move (that is, their last move) as either a non-damaging move, or as an off-STAB attack. This might just be chance - Prima's Misty Terrain may imply that there's just less general care overall in the last move - but there is definitely no obligation to wrap up your movepools up with the standard 'big' moves.

Late-Game Stat Debuff
Another notable quirk of the Gen 7 trio is that each at Level 49 picks up a stat lowering move - Featherdance/Scary Face/Captivate. You can pick if you want to follow this or not (it's certainly not true of all starters), but it's an example of the patterns you can spot from within starter movepools.

Catalisador · Oct 20, 2018

Work in progress

Bold - required moves
Italics - repeated moves

1 Hydro Pump
1 Imprison
1 Pound
1 Growl
1 Bubble
Evo Psycho Shift
4 Growl
9 Baby-Doll Eyes
11 Aqua Jet
15 Struggle Bug
19 Encore
24 Bubble Beam
29 Psycho Shift
31 Psychic
34 Spiky Shield
36 Skill Swap
41 Hydro Pump
49 Healing Wish
53 Bug Buzz
For 25w, I decided to go with a level up pattern close to Primarina's while adding some Psychic-type flavor to it. As our evolution move, we get Psycho Shift, which is an interesting level up option and is also on our required moves list. In the beginning of the movepool, we will have access to low base power moves such as Aqua Jet and Pound, typical of starter pokemon, as well as nice flavor support options like Imprison and Baby-Doll Eyes. Midway through the movepool, we get access to Struggle Bug as well as Bubble Beam and Psycho Shift, again. Later, we get access to Psychic for more flavor as well as Skill Swap and Healing Wish, while also gaining Spiky Shield and Bug Buzz, potent options, as well as Hydro Pump.

CAP25w-1 - Confusion
CAP25w-1, CAP25w-2 - Mirror Coat
I went with some more Psychic-type flavor to this section of the movepool, with common moves amongst Psychic-flavoured pokemon like Psyduck.

CAP 25 Celebration

Snaelstrom @ Relic Silver
Level 50
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Random
OT: Cooper
ID: 003089
Met: 2018 Celebration CAP (fateful encounter)
Ribbon: Souvenir Ribbon
- Celebrate
- Liquidation
- Leech Life
- Psycho Shift

Earth Day Celebration

Snaelstrom @ Gold Bottle Cap
Level 50
Ability: Poison Heal
Nature: Random
OT: MotherE
ID: 002018
Met: Rio de Janeiro (fateful encounter)
Ribbon: Event Ribbon
- Spiky Shield
- Hydro Pump
- Icy Wind
- Psycho Shift

Thank you, Dogfish44 for kindly allowing me to use your event teamplate!

TM01 Work Up
TM06 Toxic
TM07 Hail
TM10 Hidden Power
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM27 Return
TM28 Leech Life
TM29 Psychic
TM32 Double Team
TM33 Reflect
TM36 Sludge Bomb
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM49 Echoed Voice
TM55 Scald
TM68 Giga Impact
TM75 Swords Dance
TM83 Infestation
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
TM92 Trick Room
TM94 Surf
TM98 Waterfall
TM99 Dazzling Gleam
TM100 Confide

Snore
Helping Hand
Block
Bug Bite
Ally Switch
Signal Beam
Stealth Rock
Iron Defense
Telekinesis
Water Pulse
Aqua Tail
Icy Wind
Zen Headbutt
Trick
Magic Coat
Magic Room
Wonder Room
Liquidation
Skill Swap
Knock Off

Water Pledge
Hydro Cannon

Rapid Spin (Blastoise)
Sticky Web (Araquanid)
Moonblast (Primarina)
Whirlpool (Kingdra)
Pin Missile (Toxapex)
Clear Smog (Magcargo)
Amnesia (Slowbro)
Spider Web (Araquanid)

I chose Water 1 to get access to some of our required moves (Rapid Spin and Sticky Web) as well as for flavor, since 25w's design fits this egg group really well, being a starter and a gastropod. Amorphous was added for flavor since other slimey and gastropod pokemon are in it such as Magcargo, Gastrodon and Muk, as well as Psychic-flavoured pokemon like Gardevoir and Misdreavus.

Total of moves: 85

G-Luke · Oct 20, 2018

Final Submission

23 Total 21 New

HS Razor Shell
HS Spiky Shield
HS Healing Wish
1 Refresh
1 Pound
1 Withdrawl
1 Bubble
Evo Move: Razor Shell
4 Withdrawl
7 Water Gun
11 Charm
15 Struggle Bug
18 Bug Bite
22 Protect
26 Water Pulse
30 Heal Pulse
34 Brine
38 Leech Life
43 Whirlpool
49 Captivate
54 Psychic
60 Hydro Pump
65 Safeguard

32 Total 29 New

TM01 Work Up
TM06 Toxic
TM07 Hail
TM10 Hidden Power
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM27 Return
TM28 Leech Life
TM29 Psychic
TM32 Double Team
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM55 Scald
TM56 Fling
TM68 Giga Impact
TM75 Swords Dance
TM83 Infestation
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn
TM92 Trick Room
TM94 Surf
TM98 Waterfall
TM99 Dazzling Gleam
TM100 Confide

Egg Groups: Water 1 and Fairy
7 New

Aqua Jet
Wide Guard
Aqua Ring
Sticky Web
Psycho Shift
Rapid Spin
Moonblast

19 Total 17 New

Block
Bug Bite
Heal Bell
Helping Hand
Hydro Cannon
Hyper Voice
Icy Wind
Liquidation
Magic Coat
Magic Room
Signal Beam
Snore
Stealth Rock
Trick
Uproar
Water Pledge
Water Pulse
Wonder Room
Zen Headbutt

4 Total 2 New
Snaelstrom @ Relic Silver
Level 50
Ability: Random
Nature: Random
OT: Arthur
ID: 002300
Met: 2018 Celebration CAP (fateful encounter)
Ribbon: Souvenir Ribbon
- Celebrate
- Razor Shell
- Metronome
- Infestation

Credit to Dogfish for the original idea of the event, I just decided to personalize each around certain aspects of flavour. Just some neat moves slapped in. Celebrate for obvious reasons, Razor Shell again serving as a signature, Metronome being a fun move and Infestation being a neat bug option. The OT is named after Aquaman, who is named Arthur Curry, and the ID # is the size of the Great Barrier Reef!

Total Moves: 69
Explanation: Whenever Final Subs are ready

Please leave commentary

Catalisador · Oct 21, 2018

Work in Progress

Bold - required moves
Italics - repeated moves

1 Hydro Pump
1 Imprison
1 Pound
1 Growl
1 Bubble
Evo Psycho Shift
4 Growl
9 Baby-Doll Eyes
11 Aqua Jet
15 Struggle Bug
19 Encore
24 Bubble Beam
29 Psycho Shift
31 Psychic
34 Spiky Shield
36 Skill Swap
41 Hydro Pump
49 Healing Wish
53 Bug Buzz
For 25w, I decided to go with a level up pattern close to Primarina's while adding some Psychic-type flavor to it. As our evolution move, we get Psycho Shift, which is an interesting level up option and is also on our required moves list. In the beginning of the movepool, we will have access to low base power moves such as Aqua Jet and Pound, typical of starter pokemon, as well as nice flavor support options like Imprison and Baby-Doll Eyes. Midway through the movepool, we get access to Struggle Bug as well as Bubble Beam and Psycho Shift, again. Later, we get access to Psychic for more flavor as well as Skill Swap and Healing Wish, while also gaining Spiky Shield and Bug Buzz, potent options, as well as Hydro Pump.

CAP25w-1 - Confusion
CAP25w-1, CAP25w-2 - Mirror Coat
I went with some more Psychic-type flavor to this section of the movepool, with common moves amongst Psychic-flavoured pokemon like Psyduck.

CAP 25 Celebration

Snaelstrom @ Relic Silver
Level 50
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Random
OT: Cooper
ID: 003089
Met: 2018 Celebration CAP (fateful encounter)
Ribbon: Souvenir Ribbon
- Celebrate
- Liquidation
- Leech Life
- Psycho Shift

Earth Day Celebration

Snaelstrom @ Gold Bottle Cap
Level 50
Ability: Poison Heal
Nature: Random
OT: MotherE
ID: 002018
Met: Rio de Janeiro (fateful encounter)
Ribbon: Event Ribbon
- Spiky Shield
- Hydro Pump
- Icy Wind
- Psycho Shift

Thank you, Dogfish44 for kindly allowing me to use your event teamplate!

TM01 Work Up
TM06 Toxic
TM07 Hail
TM10 Hidden Power
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM27 Return
TM28 Leech Life
TM29 Psychic
TM32 Double Team
TM33 Reflect
TM36 Sludge Bomb
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM49 Echoed Voice
TM55 Scald
TM68 Giga Impact
TM75 Swords Dance
TM83 Infestation
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
TM92 Trick Room
TM94 Surf
TM98 Waterfall
TM99 Dazzling Gleam
TM100 Confide

Snore
Helping Hand
Block
Bug Bite
Ally Switch
Signal Beam
Stealth Rock
Telekinesis
Water Pulse
Icy Wind
Zen Headbutt
Trick
Magic Coat
Magic Room
Wonder Room
Liquidation
Skill Swap
Knock Off

Water Pledge
Hydro Cannon

Rapid Spin (Blastoise)
Sticky Web (Araquanid)
Moonblast (Primarina)
Whirlpool (Kingdra)
Pin Missile (Toxapex)
Clear Smog (Magcargo)
Spider Web (Araquanid)

I chose Water 1 to get access to some of our required moves (Rapid Spin and Sticky Web) as well as for flavor, since 25w's design fits this egg group really well, being a starter and a gastropod. Amorphous was added for flavor since other slimey and gastropod pokemon are in it such as Magcargo, Gastrodon and Muk, as well as Psychic-flavoured pokemon like Gardevoir and Misdreavus.

Total of moves: 82

hawk1113 · Oct 22, 2018

I want to echo a few of EndlessGadgets concerns. First...

PHYSICAL COVERAGE:
It's important to remember that Snaelstrom is supposed to have a viable Swords Dance set, and that set is often going to have a free slot or two given that Facade wrecks everything that isn't resistant or immune to it. As a result, any competitively viable physical coverage should get at least some scrutiny, especially physical coverage that (s)nails Pokemon that would resist Facade + Leech Life - specifically, Pajantom, although we should also ensure we aren't giving Snaelstrom anything that can destroy Tomohawk at +2. Less concerning but stuff I'll still look at are Arghonaut, Cyclohm, Toxapex, Ferrothorn, and Necturna. Moves that concern me on that front...

Ice Punch: This move is ubiquitous on a lot of submissions, probably since people assume if Ice Beam is mandatory for flavor, than Ice Punch is safe with less BP. But we do have more attack than SpA and we do have Swords Dance. Pajantom is also an important throttle to us, and is often offensive or specially defensive - and thus much more vulnerable to a physical coverage move like this.

0 Atk Snaelstrom Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 136-162 (36.5 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Snaelstrom Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 174-206 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 0 Atk Snaelstrom Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 272-320 (73.1 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Snaelstrom Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 348-410 (93.5 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Snaelstrom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 226-266 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Pajantom Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snaelstrom: 102-121 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- 60.7% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal

Pajantom is 3HKO'd uninvested, and it only gets worse if we either invest or get a SD off on the switch. Pajantom is not guaranteed to 4HKO due to our healing, and can't really afford to take a turn off on Heal Block. Crunch and Knock Off are similarly problematic, hitting Pajantom and Necturna quite hard. I was under the impression we wanted these mon's (especially Pajantom) to be reliable checks and counters, which means to me that we should ban Ice Punch, Crunch, and any other Dark/Ghost/Ice/Dragon physical coverage of 70 BP or greater. I haven't seen anyone submit Dragon Claw or Shadow Claw yet, so this is more me heading off that stuff at the pass.

(I calced a lot of other stuff, and Ice Punch wasn't problematic against anyone else. Ferrothorn still destroys us, and Tomohawk and Cyclohm are far more worried about Ice Beam given their relatively weaker special bulk and even then should be clean checks and counters).

Zen Headbutt
Coverage that hits folks other than Pajantom is less fearsome, as even an 80 BP power move only barely outdamages Facade. Dark, Ice, Ghost, and Dragon coverage is dangerous because Pajantom resists both our STABs and is immune to Facade, making it a blanket counter, and introducing moves to disrupt that is a bit wonky. But other stuff just gets mashed up by a 140 BP neutral attack. Still, to make sure it was okay, I calced out some Zen Headbutt stuff.

252 Atk Snaelstrom Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 66-78 (21.7 - 25.6%) -- 1% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Snaelstrom Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 76-90 (25 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252 Atk Snaelstrom Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 130-154 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Snaelstrom Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 150-178 (49.3 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Snaelstrom Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 95-112 (22.9 - 27%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Snaelstrom Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 110-130 (26.5 - 31.4%) -- 18.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Snaelstrom Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 188-222 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Snaelstrom Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 216-256 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Snaelstrom Facade (140 BP) vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 128-151 (31.9 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Snaelstrom Zen Headbutt vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 146-174 (36.4 - 43.3%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
220+ Atk Arghonaut Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snaelstrom: 115-136 (35.6 - 42.1%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal

Based on my quick calculations, this move is likely fine. It does make some shaky 2HKO into near-guaranteed 2HKOs, but chip damage, Toxic, Stealth Rock, etc also make Facade super lethal. Since those 'mons often carry Haze (e.g. Tomohawk and Toxapex) or are Unaware (Arghonaught), Swords Dance can't be used to bust past them reliably. I did not calc them, but this leads me to believe that Dazzling Gleam and Thunder Punch (which isn't actually in any submissions yet but was called out by Endless) are also completely safe.

Poison Coverage:
The most relevant target here is Jumbao, whose 4x weakness makes it easy prey for this coverage.

252 Atk Snaelstrom Poison Fang vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Jumbao: 156-184 (40.2 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Snaelstrom Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Jumbao: 107-127 (27.5 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Snaelstrom Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Jumbao: 248-292 (63.9 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Snaelstrom Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Jumbao: 192-228 (49.4 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Jumbao Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snaelstrom: 127-150 (39.3 - 46.4%) -- 85.4% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal

Poison Fang outpaces Facade but still leaves us with a 3HKO, one that with Leftovers and/or Shore Up Jumbao is fine with. Poison Jab is likely too much, as even uninvested we're suddenly threatening a 2HKO against Jumbao.

OTHER MISC. MOVES:

Shell Smash - Having trouble seeing why this is problematic. We have Swords Dance. We have abysmal speed and worse SpA boosting. I can't imagine any set attempting to use this over just going SD + Facade.
Haze - this is something I wanted on this 'mon, and I don't think it actually impacts our matchups with Tapu Fini or Jumbao in a meaningful way. However, it is a competitive move on a 'mon who already has a strong niche and it threatens to fail our goal of differentiating ourselves from other bulky waters. I'd like to see more justification for why this is fine.

Madsi6 · Oct 22, 2018

hawk1113 said:
I want to echo a few of EndlessGadgets concerns. First...

PHYSICAL COVERAGE:
It's important to remember that Snaelstrom is supposed to have a viable Swords Dance set, and that set is often going to have a free slot or two given that Facade wrecks everything that isn't resistant or immune to it. As a result, any competitively viable physical coverage should get at least some scrutiny, especially physical coverage that (s)nails Pokemon that would resist Facade + Leech Life - specifically, Pajantom, although we should also ensure we aren't giving Snaelstrom anything that can destroy Tomohawk at +2. Less concerning but stuff I'll still look at are Arghonaut, Cyclohm, Toxapex, Ferrothorn, and Necturna. Moves that concern me on that front...

Ice Punch: This move is ubiquitous on a lot of submissions, probably since people assume if Ice Beam is mandatory for flavor, than Ice Punch is safe with less BP. But we do have more attack than SpA and we do have Swords Dance. Pajantom is also an important throttle to us, and is often offensive or specially defensive - and thus much more vulnerable to a physical coverage move like this.

0 Atk Snaelstrom Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 136-162 (36.5 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Snaelstrom Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 174-206 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 0 Atk Snaelstrom Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 272-320 (73.1 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Snaelstrom Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 348-410 (93.5 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Snaelstrom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 226-266 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Pajantom Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snaelstrom: 102-121 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- 60.7% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal

Pajantom is 3HKO'd uninvested, and it only gets worse if we either invest or get a SD off on the switch. Pajantom is not guaranteed to 4HKO due to our healing, and can't really afford to take a turn off on Heal Block. Crunch and Knock Off are similarly problematic, hitting Pajantom and Necturna quite hard. I was under the impression we wanted these mon's (especially Pajantom) to be reliable checks and counters, which means to me that we should ban Ice Punch, Crunch, and any other Dark/Ghost/Ice/Dragon physical coverage of 70 BP or greater. I haven't seen anyone submit Dragon Claw or Shadow Claw yet, so this is more me heading off that stuff at the pass.

(I calced a lot of other stuff, and Ice Punch wasn't problematic against anyone else. Ferrothorn still destroys us, and Tomohawk and Cyclohm are far more worried about Ice Beam given their relatively weaker special bulk and even then should be clean checks and counters).

Zen Headbutt
Coverage that hits folks other than Pajantom is less fearsome, as even an 80 BP power move only barely outdamages Facade. Dark, Ice, Ghost, and Dragon coverage is dangerous because Pajantom resists both our STABs and is immune to Facade, making it a blanket counter, and introducing moves to disrupt that is a bit wonky. But other stuff just gets mashed up by a 140 BP neutral attack. Still, to make sure it was okay, I calced out some Zen Headbutt stuff.

252 Atk Snaelstrom Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 66-78 (21.7 - 25.6%) -- 1% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Snaelstrom Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 76-90 (25 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252 Atk Snaelstrom Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 130-154 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Snaelstrom Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 150-178 (49.3 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Snaelstrom Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 95-112 (22.9 - 27%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Snaelstrom Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 110-130 (26.5 - 31.4%) -- 18.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Snaelstrom Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 188-222 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Snaelstrom Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 216-256 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Snaelstrom Facade (140 BP) vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 128-151 (31.9 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Snaelstrom Zen Headbutt vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 146-174 (36.4 - 43.3%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
220+ Atk Arghonaut Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snaelstrom: 115-136 (35.6 - 42.1%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal

Based on my quick calculations, this move is likely fine. It does make some shaky 2HKO into near-guaranteed 2HKOs, but chip damage, Toxic, Stealth Rock, etc also make Facade super lethal. Since those 'mons often carry Haze (e.g. Tomohawk and Toxapex) or are Unaware (Arghonaught), Swords Dance can't be used to bust past them reliably. I did not calc them, but this leads me to believe that Dazzling Gleam and Thunder Punch (which isn't actually in any submissions yet but was called out by Endless) are also completely safe.

Poison Coverage:
The most relevant target here is Jumbao, whose 4x weakness makes it easy prey for this coverage.

252 Atk Snaelstrom Poison Fang vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Jumbao: 156-184 (40.2 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Snaelstrom Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Jumbao: 107-127 (27.5 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Snaelstrom Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Jumbao: 248-292 (63.9 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Snaelstrom Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Jumbao: 192-228 (49.4 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Jumbao Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snaelstrom: 127-150 (39.3 - 46.4%) -- 85.4% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal

Poison Fang outpaces Facade but still leaves us with a 3HKO, one that with Leftovers and/or Shore Up Jumbao is fine with. Poison Jab is likely too much, as even uninvested we're suddenly threatening a 2HKO against Jumbao.

OTHER MISC. MOVES:

Shell Smash - Having trouble seeing why this is problematic. We have Swords Dance. We have abysmal speed and worse SpA boosting. I can't imagine any set attempting to use this over just going SD + Facade.
Haze - this is something I wanted on this 'mon, and I don't think it actually impacts our matchups with Tapu Fini or Jumbao in a meaningful way. However, it is a competitive move on a 'mon who already has a strong niche and it threatens to fail our goal of differentiating ourselves from other bulky waters. I'd like to see more justification for why this is fine.

I do agree with ice punch/knock off being too strong, and i'm more than willing to remove them if they're deem banned, and from your calcs they have good reason to. I think brutal swing and maybe ice shard could be viable contenders to replace knock off/ice punch, not sure about ice fang, but i'm not able to calculate atm, what is your take on those for replacements?
I tried to justify my thought for haze (under egg move thought process) and i hope it can shed some light on my choice :) (It doesn't set Snaelstrom apart as a bulky water, but gives it a move to help it with its weaknesses) thank you for bringing all of these up, as i can tell alot of concerns are raised from these moves.

G-Luke · Oct 22, 2018

hawk1113 said:
I want to echo a few of EndlessGadgets

OTHER MISC. MOVES:

Shell Smash - Having trouble seeing why this is problematic. We have Swords Dance. We have abysmal speed and worse SpA boosting. I can't imagine any set attempting to use this over just going SD + Facade.

Wut?

Why is this even being submitted? Shell Smash is Quiver Dance level competitive move stuff (even more so). A Shell Smash set was never brought up in Competitive Discussion, and thanks to its solid bulk, Snaelstrom can afford to set up on a variety of threats - even more than once. A Shell Smash set has completely different counterplay than defensive sets, and adds a layer of unpredictability we do not need. Special set up was also banned anyways, so again why is this being brought up. Need I remind you that Cloyster was used as a defensive Spiker prior to Shell Smash's release.

hawk1113 · Oct 22, 2018

G-Luke said:
Wut?

Why is this even being submitted? Shell Smash is Quiver Dance level competitive move stuff (even more so). A Shell Smash set was never brought up in Competitive Discussion, and thanks to its solid bulk, Snaelstrom can afford to set up on a variety of threats - even more than once. A Shell Smash set has completely different counterplay than defensive sets, and adds a layer of unpredictability we do not need. Special set up was also banned anyways, so again why is this being brought up. Need I remind you that Cloyster was used as a defensive Spiker prior to Shell Smash's release.

I thought I had seen it in someone else's spread, so I wasn't personally advocating for it. But yeah, I can see the light now - that move is stupid. We have a much better ability than Cloyster, arguably a better stat spread (with +10 BST), and a better typing. Shell Smash is dangerous compared to Swords Dance because we can freely choose to use Hydro Pump or Ice Beam as coverage moves (nevermind Hidden Power and various other moves), we can ditch Aqua Jet as we no longer need speed control, and we can still heal a ton with Leech Life and mangle everything with Facade. Shell Smash should definitely be deeply scrutinized, and probably banned.

Madsi6 · Oct 23, 2018

hawk1113 said:
I thought I had seen it in someone else's spread, so I wasn't personally advocating for it. But yeah, I can see the light now - that move is stupid. We have a much better ability than Cloyster, arguably a better stat spread (with +10 BST), and a better typing. Shell Smash is dangerous compared to Swords Dance because we can freely choose to use Hydro Pump or Ice Beam as coverage moves (nevermind Hidden Power and various other moves), we can ditch Aqua Jet as we no longer need speed control, and we can still heal a ton with Leech Life and mangle everything with Facade. Shell Smash should definitely be deeply scrutinized, and probably banned.

I was the one to feature shell smash, however in my recent change i removed it due to it’s power ^^

Reiga · Oct 23, 2018

WIP

Requesting a legality check on Megahorn and screens, please.

Bolded is required,
Italicized are repeats.

HS-Spiky Shield
HS-Psycho Shift
HS-Stockpile
HS-Spit Up
1-Pound
1-Withdraw
1-Bubble
1-Rock Polish
Evo-Spiky Shield
5-Bubble
8-Rock Polish
11-Protect
14-Struggle Bug
18-Bubble Beam
22-Acid Armor
26-Bug Bite
30-Rapid Spin
34-Brine
39-Bug Buzz
44-Venoshock
49-Megahorn
55-Hydro Pump
60-Wide Guard

The base pattern here is a simple 4-4-4, but on top of it is the standard starter formula of the Pokemon consistently learning moves progressively later than the base form upon evolving, so any moves after the level range this Pokemon would evolve (16-18 and 32-36), will be learnt progressively later on than if it were kept unevolved. Not only is this mega useful for the eventual pre-evolution movepools, but mimics the exact way starters handle LU moves to a tee.

The most important thing I've highlighted for this level-up pool is this Pokemon's defensive nature. Beyond the very fitting stats, Snaelstrom is equipped with a sturdy shell that encompasses a huge sum of its design, alongside a protective nature. While the name refers to a violent tempest, the original designer's description defines it as a protective guardian of the reefs. This flavor is accentuated with the moves Stockpile (and by extension Spit Up), Withdraw, Protect, Acid Armor, Wide Guard, and most prominently Spiky Shield: inserted here as a sort of signature move to Snaelstrom, not in the sense that its unique to it, but how it encapsulates its defensive nature, with a spiky shield of coral, being as such learnt upon evo. Acid Armor combines the ability of many Water types to liquify/downright turn into water, with how pretty much any gastropod mon getting it. Withdraw is also an early move for fellow shelled starters Squirtle and Turtwig.
Beyond that, there are more subtle themes, like references to the sea with Brine and the use of its enlarged horn antennae with Megahorn. Acid Armor and Venoshock fill a very very lowkey Poison vibe Snael gives off, thanks to its Poison Heal and diet of Toxapex (after all, many sea slugs can use the venom from their prey for self-defense!), while Rock Polish and Wide Guard fill in the lowkey Rock vibe, after all, Snael's shell is made of a rock-like substance, although none of the moves directly reference anything dramatically rock-like.

Sticky Web (Araquanid, Masquerain)
Aqua Jet (various)
Soak (various)
Dive (various)
Rock Throw (Swampert, Carracosta, Aurorus)
Acid Spray (Quagsire, Octillery)

Snaelstrom definitely has a less amorphous look than almost any other gastropod mon, so I felt like Amorphous would be unfitting for it, and instead went with Monster, a quite extensive group which fits the slightly beastly, 6 limbed design of it. Hell, another Water starter based on a primarily underwater being that isn't particularly reptillian, Swampert, is in the group! Out of the 3 Water groups, Water 1 fitted the most. All Water starters are in it, and so are other molluscs like Shellos and Inkay. It also just works for the egg moves desired.
Sticky Web isn't weird flavor anymore now that USUM gave it to weird stuff like Cutiefly and Swirlix, although through egg, like with Snael. Baneful Bunker toys a bit with the Zangoose-Seviper aspect between Snael and Toxa, which like the other rivals, can also breed. Aqua Jet, of course, is a standard Water move, although a bit too quick for a slug's main learnset.
Out of the non-required egg moves, Rock Throw is the most blatant showcase of Rock on Snael, and has a bit of an extensive enough learnpool to work, while Acid Spray also works off of the Poison vibes, with the majority of Pokemon that learns it by Egg not even being directly Poison type, so hey, it works. In the end we don't want to overshadow that this is primarily a Water mon, so Soak and Dive are there, with the latter referencing Snael's open sea nature.

TM01 Work Up
TM02 Dragon Claw
TM06 Toxic
TM07 Hail
TM09 Venoshock
TM10 Hidden Power
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM27 Return
TM28 Leech Life
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM33 Reflect
TM36 Sludge Bomb
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM52 Focus Blast
TM55 Scald
TM68 Giga Impact
TM69 Rock Polish
TM75 Swords Dance
TM77 Psych Up
TM83 Infestation
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
TM92 Trick Room
TM94 Surf
TM98 Waterfall
TM100 Confide

Beyond the required moves, Dragon Claw plays off of the association commonly given between slugs and snails and dragons in Pokemon, while also being something given to a lot of Pokemon that aren't Dragons at all, like Chesnaught and Pangoro. Screens, Safeguard and Psych Up play off of the prominent defensive theme, Hail. Ice Beam and Blizzard are on almost every Water-type. Venoshock and Rock Tomb reference the subtypes I've already mentioned a lot, and finally, Focus Blast is learnt by a LOT of fully evolved mons, and works off of the serene and focused look of Snael.

Snore
Helping Hand
Block
Bug Bite
Stealth Rock
Iron Defense
Water Pulse
Icy Wind
Magic Coat
Liquidation
Water Pledge
Hydro Cannon

Helping Hand, Block, Iron Defense, Stealth Rock, and Magic Coat all heavily reference Snael's defensive nature. Water Pulse and Icy Wind are commonplace on any normal Water-type. Not a lot to say.

Acid Armor
Acid Spray
Aqua Jet
Attract
Blizzard
Block
Brick Break
Brine
Bubble
Bubble Beam
Bug Bite
Bug Buzz
Confide
Dive
Double Team
Dragon Claw
Facade
Focus Blast
Frustration
Giga Impact
Hail
Helping Hand
Hidden Power
Hydro Cannon
Hydro Pump
Hyper Beam
Ice Beam
Icy Wind
Infestation
Iron Defense
Leech Life
Light Screen
Liquidation
Magic Coat
Megahorn
Pound
Protect
Psych Up
Psycho Shift
Rain Dance
Rapid Spin
Reflect
Rest
Return
Rock Polish
Rock Throw
Rock Tomb
Round
Safeguard
Scald
Sleep Talk
Sludge Bomb
Snore
Soak
Spiky Shield
Spit Up
Stealth Rock
Sticky Web
Stockpile
Struggle Bug
Substitute
Surf
Swagger
Swords Dance
Toxic
Trick Room
U-turn
Venoshock
Venoshock
Water Pledge
Water Pulse
Waterfall
Wide Guard
Withdraw
Work Up

Granny Pie · Oct 23, 2018

WIP

Bold = required moves
Italics = repeated moves

1 Magic Coat
1 Purify
1 Spiky Shield
1 Pound
1 Tail Whip
1 Bubble
1 Withdraw
Evo Purify
4 Tail Whip
6 Water Gun
8 Withdraw
10 Leech Life
14 Water Pulse
19 Zen Headbutt
23 Scald
28 Amnesia
33 Bug Bite
42 Magic Coat
49 Clamp
56 Infestation
60 Future Sight
64 Brine
68 Gravity
70 Megahorn
77 Hydro Pump

I struggled for a bit whether to capitalize on Snaelstrom's name and go for a "stormy" level up movepool, but I found that I much preferred the imagery of a gentle and wise king residing in the ocean for Snaelstrom. His moves are mainly special, but powerful, with a robust Psychic-type representation to illustrate his calmness and wise powers, Zen Headbutt showing that he's calm, but certainly not passive, and Future Sight showing that a king must have some foresight of the future in order to act in a way best suited to his throne. Megahorn, a physical bug move, may look out of place that late in his level up movepool, but sometimes a king just has to lower his head and charge into battle in order to do what needs done. One of the most important things, though, is that Snaelstrom has a deep desire to make his kingdom not just liveable, but beautiful for his citizens, first shown by his Evolution move being Purify, and exemplifieid throughout the rest of his entire movepool later on.

CAP25W-1 CAP25W-2 Extrasensory
CAP25W-1, CAP25W-2 Psycho Shift
CAP25W-1, CAP25W-2 Struggle Bug

Most of Snaelstrom's pre-evo moves are just weaker and less "wise" versions of his "wise psychic" moves, with Extrasensory being a weaker Future Sight, Psycho Shift being a pseudo "reactive" version of the "proactive" Magic Coat, and Struggle Bug illustrating how a kingdom can struggle if its leader doesn't have the power to do what needs to be done.

Razor Shell (Crawdaunt)
Hurricane (Pelipper)
Bug Buzz (Volcarona)
Liquidation (Araquanid)
Purify (Pyukumuku)
Fell Stinger (Beedrill)
Steamroller (Scolipede)
Fury Cutter (Golisopod)
Swords Dance (Golisopod)
Iron Defense (Golisopod)
Pin Missile (Golisopod)
Aqua Jet (Surskit)
Rapid Spin (Blastoise)
Sticky Web (Surskit)
Stealth Rock (Crustle)

Snaelstrom's Egg Moves are more biological than illustrative, rounding out much of Snaelstrom's Bug and Water-type moveset, inheriting much from Golisopod and Surskit.

CAP 25 Celebration

Snaelstrom @ Bottle Cap
Level 50
Ability: Poison Heal
Nature: Random
OT: Doug
ID: 478414
Met: 2018 Celebration CAP (fateful encounter)
Ribbon: Souvenir Ribbon
- Celebrate
- Hurricane
- Thunder
- Rain Dance

Clean Up Australia Day

Snaelstrom @ Lum Berry
Level 50
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Hardy
OT: Ian Kiernan
ID: 030319
Met: Great Barrier Reef (fateful encounter)
Ribbon: Special Ribbon
- Hold Hands
- Recycle
- Purify
- Protect

I wanted Snaelstrom's two events to be the standard CAP25 Celebration distribution, holding a Silver Bottle Cap to exemplify CAP's silver anniversary, but I also found an inspiration in Clean Up Australia Day, the first Sunday of every March in Australia, a day dedicated to cleaning up Australia's environment, especially the Great Barrier Reef, a place that Snaelstrom would definitely live, due to it and Corsola's strong bonds of friendship, but also an event that Snaelstrom would participate in, as throughout his movepool, I have included many references to him cleaning and caring for his environment.

Snore
Heal Bell
Electroweb
Uproar
Helping Hand
Block
Last Resort
Bug Bite
Recycle
After You
Ally Switch
Signal Beam
Gravity
Stealth Rock
Iron Defense
Telekinesis
Role Play
Water Pulse
Aqua Tail
Pain Split
Endeavor
Icy Wind
Zen Headbutt
Laser Focus
Magic Coat
Magic Room
Wonder Room

Hydro Cannon
Water Pledge

TM01 Work Up
TM03 Psyshock
TM06 Toxic
TM10 Hidden Power
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM24 Thunderbolt
TM25 Thunder
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM28 Leech Life
TM29 Psychic
TM30 Shadow Ball
TM32 Double Team
TM33 Reflect
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM49 Echoed Voice
TM52 Focus Blast
TM55 Scald
TM63 Embargo
TM68 Giga Impact
TM69 Rock Polish
TM74 Gyro Ball
TM75 Swords Dance
TM77 Psych Up
TM78 Bulldoze
TM81 X-Scissor
TM83 Infestation
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-Turn
TM90 Substitute
TM92 Trick Room
TM94 Surf
TM96 Nature Power
TM98 Waterfall
TM100 Confide

Snaelstrom's TM set is much like his Egg moves, mostly just a way of rounding out his biological moveset with Bug, Water, and Ice-type moves, with a few references to his shell, but still with a few references to his healthy environment with Recycle and Embargo, a move working double duty as his only Dark-type move, as he is a very honest and caring lord, and will only perform negative actions such as employing embargoes on goods when it is absolutely neccessary. Snaelstrom also shys away from as many Poison-type moves as he can, seeing them as nasty moves detrimental to both his kingdom and his health.

105 moves

cbrevan Calling for a check on Purify. I really like it flavor-wise, but I can see it being a problem as a recovery move, albeit an incredibly unreliable one. Also calling for a check on Thunder and Thunderbolt.

EndlessGadgets · Oct 23, 2018

So I have recently seen electric coverage being put in some of CAP 25w's movepools and I think that it is completely unacceptable. It hits so many of our checks and counters hard it's not even funny. These include Tomohawk, Tornadus-Therian, Gyarados, Naviathan, Pelipper, Tapu Fini, Azumarill, Arghonaut, and Toxapex. Anyone putting electric coverage in their movepools needs to give very strong justification as to why hitting all of these mons is fine.

Warren685 · Oct 23, 2018

EndlessGadgets said:
So I have recently seen electric coverage being put in some of CAP 25w's movepools and I think that it is completely unacceptable. It hits so many of our checks and counters hard it's not even funny. These include Tomohawk, Tornadus-Therian, Gyarados, Naviathan, Pelipper, Tapu Fini, Azumarill, Arghonaut, and Toxapex. Anyone putting electric coverage in their movepools needs to give very strong justification as to why hitting all of these mons is fine.

Azumarill isn't that relevant to CAP, also Torn-T can OHKO us with Hurricane and still pressure us, Tomo's Air slash does about half our HP if we're fully invested in Sp.def, Naviathan can still run Wild charge with Dragon dance, Gyra has bounce too, Argh has recover which can tank the bolts, as well as Toxa as it can switch out with regen, not to mention that most of these pokemon are faster then Snaelstrom so you seem to be overreacting.

G-Luke · Oct 23, 2018

EndlessGadgets said:
So I have recently seen electric coverage being put in some of CAP 25w's movepools and I think that it is completely unacceptable. It hits so many of our checks and counters hard it's not even funny. These include Tomohawk, Tornadus-Therian, Gyarados, Naviathan, Pelipper, Tapu Fini, Azumarill, Arghonaut, and Toxapex. Anyone putting electric coverage in their movepools needs to give very strong justification as to why hitting all of these mons is fine.

I dont agree with giving Snaelstron viable electric coverage, but its not like we dont already threaten half of these Pokemon with popular coverage, or they are just not relevant. Tomo and Tornadus-T are bopped by Ice Beam, and do more damage than a Thunder Punch ever could. Azumarill, and to a lesser extent Tapu Fini are not very relevant to CAP (Snaelstrom if anything should beat Azumarill in the long run). Argh is trapped and outstalled by Snael. That leaves Gyarados, Pelipper, Naviathan and Toxapex, ehich I do think should have a positive matchup, especially CM + Taunt Navi.

hawk1113 · Oct 23, 2018

I haven't actually seen any sets, but here's the thing - any physical coverage in the 70-80 range is probably largely fine on Snalestrom, because we have access to Poison Heal Facade as a 140 BP move. So for coverage to be a problem, it has to be coverage that would threaten stuff that resists Facade - we obviously can't have Fire coverage because Ferrothorn, and as I posted I think we should avoid Ice, Dark, Dragon, and Ghost coverage because of Pajantom and Necturna. But Electric and Psychic coverage is doing only marginally more damage than Facade, and we don't have to worry much about Z-moves because almost all sensible sets will be using Toxic Orb. There are only two 'mons Electric coverage matter on:

- Gyarados. Gyarados resists both STABs. It does not resist Facade, but it is 4x weak to Electric.
- Naviathan. Naviathan resists both STABS and Facade, so adding strong Electric coverage definitely hurts it.

I'm not sincerely advocating for Thunder Punch given these two match-ups, and it actually does fail a benchmark of mine, but I also don't actually think it'll see any use compared to our primary options. Basically, if it is not a type that exploits a 4x weakness on our C&C list (Poison, Fire, and to a lesser extent Ground and Electric) and it is not a type that Pajantom is weak to (so again, Dark, Dragon, Ice, Fairy, and Ghost), you are probably safe to include that coverage.

I appreciate you being super vigilant, as we don't want to make assumptions that our defensive 'mon can get crazy-pants offensive moves, but at the end of the day we are an offensive 'mon. The litmus test is not just "does this move hit a C&C for SE damage?", it's "Does this hit multiple C&Cs for WAY, WAY more damage than mandatory moves such as Hydro Pump, Icebeam, Leech Life, Liquidation, and Facade"?

CAP 25 - Part 9 - CAP 25w Full Movepool Submissions

cbrevan

spin, spin, spin

cbrevan

spin, spin, spin

wadusher

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster

Dogfish44

You can call me Jiggly

icy_hot

Madsi6

EndlessGadgets

Warren685

Frostbiyt

Not Exactly Helping

Dogfish44

You can call me Jiggly

Catalisador

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All

Catalisador

hawk1113

Madsi6

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All

hawk1113

Madsi6

Reiga

im dying squirtle

Granny Pie

EndlessGadgets

Warren685

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All

hawk1113

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