CAP 25 - Part 9 - CAP 25w Moveset Discussion

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I've gone ahead and summarized most of the sets that have been submitted. I also organized them by similarity so that we can more easily discuss 25w in terms of roles. Nothing has been approved yet since there hasn't been significant discussion on move selection for a lot of sets, and I would rather not equate silence with approval just yet. Moves that I think need further analysis on their moveset will be commented on below. I'd also like us to look at the proposed movesets in relation to eachother. Is there a move from one moveset that could be combined with another in a way we don't want? Are we creating polarized matchups by pursuing two different movesets? I'd also like us to consolidate movesets where possible and identify which moves are necessary and which are unneeded or irrelevant for their movesets.

Name: Cleric
Move 1: Spiky Shield
Move 2: Wish
Move 3: U-turn / Psycho Shift / Ice Beam
Move 4: Scald
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Nature: Relaxed / Bold

Name: Slow Pivot
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: U-Turn
Move 3: Spiky Shield
Move 4: Wish / Haze / Clear Smog
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Nature: Relaxed

Name: Bulky Wish Pivot
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: Lunge / Leech Life
Move 3: Wish
Move 4: U-turn / Protect
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Sassy
I grouped these three sets due to how similiar they are. Most importantly, all three utilize Wish as a recovery move, although Roland's slow pivot shows a potential variation that uses hazing over recovery. Overall, these sets are pretty basic for a defensive Pokemon focusing on status, recovery, and pivoting. I would be comfortable approving a variation of these sets already if I wasn't unsure about the power level of Wish. As pointed out in the thread, 75% recovery translates into stalling out any attack that falls below that threshold, which gives 25g significantly more recovery that Poison Heal alone would give. On top of that, no set posted calcs to clearly demonstrate how 50% recovery interacts with Pokemon we want to check us, which means I had to refer to G-lukes calcs from his stat sub along with my own. The conclusion I came to is that 50% recovery moves allow us to 1v1 some Pokemon that should be able to switch in and threaten us out when 25w runs a specially defensive set, specifically Krilowatt, unboosted Zapdos and Cyclohm, and all Jumbao variants (calcs included below). While I'm hesitant to ban recovery moves seeing how they have been posted on a fair number of sets, I'm certain that having access to recovery moves will put a limit on what we can allow with CAP 25w.

I'd also like to hear what people think about hazing/phazing on 25w seeing how valuable such a niche can be and how little discussion the set has seen in this thread.
Name: Speed Control Pivot
Move 1: Sticky Web / Trick Room
Move 2: U-Turn / Parting Shot
Move 3: Protect
Move 4: Scald / Rapid Spin
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe (Trick Room)
Nature: Careful / Calm / Sassy (Trick Room)

Name: Toxic Spikes Pivot
Move 1: Toxic Spikes
Move 2: Parting Shot / U-turn / Baneful Bunker
Move 3: Purify
Move 4: Hidden Power Ground / Leech Life
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 228 SpD
Nature: Calm / Careful

Name: Spikes Pivot
Move 1: Spikes / Toxic Spikes
Move 2: Parting Shot / U-turn
Move 3: Psycho Shift
Move 4: Leech Life / Scald
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 228 SpD
Nature: Careful / Calm
I grouped these sets together due to their focus on getting entry hazards up on the field. Common thread with these sets is making 25w a hazard stacking pivot with U-turn and Parting Shot.

Spikes pivot is something I'm considering approving as is, but I'd like to see some more focused discussion on the inclusion of pivot moves and hazards. My main issue with hazards is that 25w has a poor matchup with common hazard removers in Tomohawk and Tornadus-T, so its unclear if hazard stacking with 25w would be preferred over similiar options in Arghonaut and Toxapex.

I'm also wary of Parting Shot because unlike U-turn it will reliably affect switch-ins regardless of their resistance to Bug, and it is a generically great move on a bulky pivot. The big question here is whether or not its neccessary when U-turn does the same thing without negatively affecting its checks in such a direct way.
Movesest Name: Bulky Swords Dance
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Facade
Move 3: Leech Life / Liquidation
Move 4: Spiky Shield/Liquidation
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Nature: Brave

cap25w @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 236 SpD
Impish Nature
- Bulk Up
- Substitute
- Disable / Protect
- Razor Shell / Lunge

Name: Hone Claws
Move 1: Hone Claws
Move 2: Spiky Shield
Move 3: Mega Horn
Move 4: Razor Shell / Hydro Pump / Blizzard
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 208 Def / 4 SpD
Nature: Sassy
Swords Dance, Hone Claws, and other +1 attack boosting moves seem balanced power wise and would help 25w break passive Pokemon such as Toxapex and Clefable. However, I'm not sure if these sets will have enough of an impact to be viable, specifically Hone Claws and other +1 boosting moves.

Bulk Up on the other hand, is an entirely different beast, especially when looked at alongside the other sets people have posted. Pips post does a good job of demonstrating how 25w can leverage its natural bulk and longevity to support a Bulk Up set. My main concern is how Bulk Up performs alongside other options that have been brought up, such as recovery and trapping. I'm also interested in Bulk Up variants such as Curse and Coil and whether or not they provide any significant benefit over Bulk Up.

Disable seems potentially dangerous as it allows 25w to handle Pokemon such as Tornadus-t better. I'm considering banning Disable, Encore, and Torment just to prevent potential move manipulation against our wanted checks.
Name: Isolation Trapper
Move 1: Liquidation
Move 2: Spiky Shield
Move 3: Psycho Shift / Toxic
Move 4: Infestation
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 240 SpD / 4 Spe
Nature: Careful

Name: It's a Trap!
Move 1: Spider Web
Move 2: Perish Song
Move 3: Scald / U-Turn
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
IVs: 24 Spe
Nature: Bold / Impish

Name: It's a Trap! 2.0
Move 1: Whirlpool
Move 2: Perish Song
Move 3: Ice Beam / Toxic / Knock Off
Move 4: Protect / Baneful Bunker / Spiky Shield
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
IVs: 24 Spe
Nature: Bold / Impish

cap25w @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 SpD
Careful Nature
- Perish Song
- U-turn / Scald
- Spiky Shield
- Infestation
The sets are all seek to use semi or permanent trapping to remove Pokemon that cannot threaten us effectively. My biggest concern with these sets is whether or not they can lure and remove supposed checks such as Jumbao and Tomohawk, specifically the Perish Trap set. To this end, I'm going to preemptively ban the combination of 50% recovery moves + trapping moves, as the added recovery would allow 25w to trap and remove Pokemon such as Tomohawk safely.

I'm also skeptical of perish trapping, as it could conceivable allow 25w to remove Pokemon we want to have as safe switchins. Unlike Toxic trapping, Perish Song would allow us to remove passive Pokemon we can't conventionally break such as Clefable, Ferrothorn, and Toxapex. With 100 Speed EVs its possible to speed creep Arghonaut and get around Circle Throw with Substitute, assuming it doesn't immediately Circle Throw on the Perish Song turn. When we factor in Bulk Up or other similiar set up options, this means the primary defensive answers to a boosting 25w would be at risk of being trapped and removed by the same Pokemon. This is relevant because allowing Bulk Up and trapping alongside one another would allow trapping sets that seek to boost up to +6, or even boosting sets that run trapping and Perish Song to remove Toxapex.
Name: Jennifer Hudson Special (aka Ingrain/Aqua Ring)
Move 1: Ingrain / Aqua Ring
Move 2: Protect
Move 3: Toxic / Psycho Shift / Trick
Move 4: Lunge / Liquidation
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm

Name: Bug with Bite (Bulky Attacker)
Move 1: Liquidation
Move 2: Knock Off
Move 3: Facade / Toxic / Poison Jab
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature

Name: Stallbreaker
Move 1: Taunt
Move 2: Toxic / Hone Claw
Move 3: Razor Shell / Leech Life
Move 4: Recover / Spiky Shield
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 Spe
Impish Nature
Ingrain and Aqua Ring seem balanced for what they do; I'm not sure they would see usage alongside other utility options such hazards. Ingrain would allow us to set up on Arghonaut when used with a boosting set, but is very niche and makes it easy for Tornadus-t, Koko, etc to remove 25w.

Taunt is an interesting addition that opens up the door for 25w to reliably check Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Clefable, and other slower, passive threats. I'm not sure where it falls power wise, but I'd be interested in seeing Taunt in combination with set up and trapping.
 
In regards to @Deck Knight’s Isolation Trapper set, I decided to calc Tomo and Jumbao. Starting with Jumbao, regardless of trapping, Drought Bao murders us anyway if rocks are up.

252 SpA Life Orb Jumbao Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Araquanid: 183-216 (47.4 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

As for Trace Bao, damage is obviously low, and as for trapping, assuming Leftovers is the only passive healing from it, Infestation leads to a net 1/16 damage a turn. If poisoned and tracing Pheal while holding Leftovers, it HEALS 1/16 a turn while under Infestation. Scarf Trace would potentially be the only set that trapping hurts due to no investment in bulk afaik, but even then, tracing PHeal can lead to some shenanigans. As such, Jumbao is likely unchanged in matchup versus us.

Tomohawk’s Defensive set might be weakened as a check versus 25w, but even then, Tomohawk actually has Taunt, and could potentially run it to shut 25w down. More notably, offensive Tomohawk pummels us.

252+ SpA Life Orb Tomohawk Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Araquanid: 351-413 (90.9 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

While Defensive Tomo might become somewhat shakier as a check, it can likely beat us 1v1, due to this calc.

0 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Araquanid: 134-162 (34.7 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

Overall, the two main Pokémon mentioned that could be hurt by trapping do not feel the effects of trapping as much as you would think. The only set that gets even slightly shakier is Defensive Tomo, and even then, we most likely do not win in that scenario, even if we can cripple Tomo. As such, I believe Deck’s Isolation Trapper set should be approved.
 
So much discussion to catch-up on! For this post, I want to talk about Defensive Boosting (specifically Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Quiver Dance, and Coil) and stat cutting (namely and specifically, Lunge and Struggle Bug).

Both these things are pro-concept as they reward us sticking around and tanking hits (boosting more than Lunging someone to death). However, we also need to remember that this is a 'mon built to be able to live multiple hits from +6 Zygarde. As a result, anything that improves are already considerable bulk is a very dangerous road to go down. Our C&C list is massive and its fine, I think, to cut into it a little bit. On the other hand, if boosting allows us to easily defeat everything on that list except Haze/Taunt Tomohawk, Arghonaut, and Heal Block Pajantom, we're going to be far, far too powerful and obnoxious and have too little counter-play in the meta.

This post is a challenge because I feel each individual situation has to be approached in terms of how the match-up plays out. Because CAP25w can alternate between "blocking" (Protect, Sub), "boosting" Iusing the boost), and "striking" (attacking) and because it (usually) is healing each round, we really need to look turn-by-turn to see if we are still countered. For all them, I will be assuming a manual switch-in and thus a free turn for 25w to do whatever is most beneficial to it (usually, boost). This should ensure the 'mons in question can remain Counters in the classical definition of the word and not just Checks; if they can only beat us at +0, they aren't Counters anymore. But beyond that I'll analyze the specifics and see how likely it is for each individual one to actually beat us.

Before I get into the meat of it, I will not be really seriously looking at Amnesia and Iron Defense. The rest of these moves are nice because they also provide some sort of inevitability, either in the form of boosting our offenses or in the form of chip damage. The pure +2 Defenses moves do not do this. You can do your own determination to see if these moves alongside, say, Toxic are oppressive but my gut feeling is "nope".

Specially Defensive Boosting (Calm Mind, Quiver Dance):


Versus Tomohawk: The battle versus Defensive Tomohawk is easily won due to Prankster Haze or Pransker Taunt followed by Pranskter Roost to heal and backed by Hurricane or Air Slash to whittle us down, so the real question is "is there any point in which Tomo can't safely answer 25w on the switch"? The answer for Defensive Tomohawk is "+6" if our best Water STAB is Scald and/or we're relying on HP, +4 if we have good 'ol Hydro Pump, and +3 if we get Stored Power. Tomo will struggle a little more if it is Stall-breaker and Offensive (especially as Offensive tends to not run Taunt or Haze) so we'll go to the 1v1 matchups.

Defensive Tomo
+4 4 SpA Golisopod Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 355-418 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 4 SpA Golisopod Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 500-590 (120.7 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 4 SpA Golisopod Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 344-406 (83 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Offensive Tomo
Turn 0: Defensive Tomo switches in. We go to +1/+1.
Turn 1: Tomo fires off Hurricane:
252+ SpA Life Orb Tomohawk Hurricane vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Golisopod: 234-276 (60.6 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
We respond by going to +2. Turn ends, we heal 6% (we are at 37-40%).
Turn 3: Tomo attempts another Hurricane, but we Protect. We heal 6% (we are at 43-46%)
Turn 4: We are almost assuredly KOd by Hurricane.
252+ SpA Life Orb Tomohawk Hurricane vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Golisopod: 174-205 (45 - 53.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Poison Heal
If we live, Stored Power is not yet a OHKO:
+2 4 SpA Golisopod Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 288-340 (82 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Overall - Tomo wins! But, it is relying on a70% accurate attack here - a single miss and it is likely in serious, serious trouble.

Stallbreaker Tomohawk:
Turn 0: We go to +1. Tomo comes in.
Turn 1: Tomo taunts. We, having predicted the taunt, attack:
+1 4 SpA Golisopod Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 178-211 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 4 SpA Golisopod Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 130-154 (37 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Turn 2: Tomo attacks!
252+ SpA Life Orb Tomohawk Hurricane vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Golisopod: 234-276 (60.6 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
we attack back, same stats. This means with Hydro Pump we net a 2HKO. With Scald (or anything else, at +1 Scald, HP: Ice, and Stored Power are same damage) we do not net a KO, and Tomo kills us turn 4 (or 5, after Roosting away some damage). We do some heavy chip though, and once again Tomo is relying on a 70% accurate move - a single miss spells doom.

Versus Tap Koko:

Wild Charge Tapu Koko can OHKO us.

252 Atk Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golisopod in Electric Terrain: 374-444 (96.8 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Poison Heal

Specs Tapu Koko:
Round 0: We Calm Mind
Round 1: Tapu Koko hits us for a boatload with Thunder Bolt
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Golisopod in Electric Terrain: 260-308 (67.3 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
We CM again to go to +2. We heal 6%, but it's a losing battle.

Conclusion: No one has seriously suggested Hydro Pump or Stored Power in thread (although I did see it in Discord), but this shows that generally speaking CM 25w will have some counter-play with aggressive Electric types giving us plenty of trouble (Plasmanta, Krillowatt, Cyclohm). As CM sets aren't in cbrevan's post, I'll say no more. If we do CM though, I think it's important that 25w not have access to Stored Power, and that somewhat defeats the concept.

Physically Defensive Boosting (Bulk Up, Coil, Curse):

Versus Ferrothorn:
Turn 0: We go to +1
Turn 1: We go to +2. Ferrothorn Leech Seed's us.
Turn 2: Honestly, the world is our oyster. Leech Life/Lunge/X-scissor is already in 4HKO range. We can alternate blocks, boosts, or just start pummeling.
+2 4 Atk Golisopod Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 126-148 (35.7 - 42%) -- 17% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery

Meanwhile, Ferro is in 8HKO range and another boost or two and we'll be healing more than it can deal with:
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Golisopod: 42-51 (10.8 - 13.2%) -- possible 8HKO after Leech Seed damage and Poison Heal

Versus Tapu Koko (Z-Wild Charge)
Turn 0: Bulk Up
Turn 1: This is interesting. If it uses it's Z-move, it's a better than 50% to OHKO us:
252 Atk Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Golisopod in Electric Terrain: 356-422 (92.2 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Poison Heal

but, if we Protect then that's its burnt its Z-crystal and we're in fine shape. Wild Charge is only dealing enough for a 2HKO:
252 Atk Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Golisopod in Electric Terrain: 186-218 (48.1 - 56.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

Ultimately though, even with the mindgames, eventually this thing will be get us down. We'll never find time to get to +3 which is what we'd need to heal more via Leech Life + Protect than we're taking from Wild Charge.

Versus Gyarados (Flynium Z):
Turn 0: Bulk Up
Turn 1: Similar to Tapu Koko, it's interesting...but even worse, as Supersonic Skystrike is only 70% if we're at +1:
252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Golisopod: 230-272 (59.5 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Then again, Gyarados can dance. If we protect anticipating supersonic, we waste our shield while it gets to +1. Thus, it would always be correct to Bulk Up this turn and get to +2. Because SSS can never OHKO us if we're full health, we can just keep boosting until Gyara shows its hand, at which point we can start alternating and healing back up (especially with Leech Life). Gyarados is hosed, as Bounce hits every other turn and his other moves barely hit more than our healing. TL;DR, Gyarados can never actually beat a Bulk Up set once we're at +1.

Versus Pajantom:
Against Z-crystal Pajantom, it's a similar story to Gyarados. Neither move can OHKO us, so whether we anticipate it spending its first turn Heal Blocking or Z-striking us, we should just spam Bulk Up until it "shows". We can then alternate moves, and even if Heal Blocked we can stall it out and eventually KO even though it resists our STABs (assuming we aren't mono-Facade).

Choice Band and Defensive Pajantom fair no better; once we're at +1 we can just keep cycling until we win

Conclusions: At this point, I could continue but the key thing I'd want everyone to take away is this: Physical Boosting completely stops almost our entire physical C&C list, leaving Wild Charge Tapu Koko as the sole 'mon capable of actually harming us. If we get a free turn to boost we simply can't be beaten by them even without assuming insane moves like Megahorn or possibilities of Burns from Scald. Now, again, our C&C list is long and all those special 'folks I listed are likely going to still counter this set (as does Tomohawk and Arghonaut, always). Still, I don't know if I'm comfortable with the idea of beating these things. The truth is, because we gave ourselves the bulk to beat Zygarde, we simply have too much bulk to be given Physical bulk-boosting moves and still have any physical 'mon check us.

Lunge and Struggle Bug are a similar story except the next 'mon in can still stop us. Lunge is still pretty uncomfortable given just how few things OHKO us to begin with, but Struggle Bug is likely fine.
 
Am I barking up the wrong tree with Phys Def/SpA Shell Trap? It hits the targets needed except for Mega-Gyarados, making things easier for the rest of the team, partnering up with Tapu Koko for the Fairy/Electric coverage to counter for standard Gyarados as well.
 
CharSiuEmboar said:
Am I barking up the wrong tree with Phys Def/SpA Shell Trap? It hits the targets needed except for Mega-Gyarados, making things easier for the rest of the team, partnering up with Tapu Koko for the Fairy/Electric coverage to counter for standard Gyarados as well.
Click to expand...

I just don't think Shell Trap is really justified. It is a defensive-ish move, but it doesn't have any particular synergy with our ability the way Spiky Shield does. It just seems like a very specific tool to cheese the various physically offensive Grass types in the tier, and it would be the least effective against the most powerful of them, Necturna, who would be too busy setting up on us with Substitute/Shift Gear/Shell Smash to even bother activating the trap until it is has already been revealed. Necturna would then proceed to boost until it could just OHKO us and not have to worry about counterattack.

Modedit: Removed flavor reasoning.
 
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cbrevan said:
I grouped these sets together due to their focus on getting entry hazards up on the field. Common thread with these sets is making 25w a hazard stacking pivot with U-turn and Parting Shot.

Spikes pivot is something I'm considering approving as is, but I'd like to see some more focused discussion on the inclusion of pivot moves and hazards. My main issue with hazards is that 25w has a poor matchup with common hazard removers in Tomohawk and Tornadus-T, so its unclear if hazard stacking with 25w would be preferred over similiar options in Arghonaut and Toxapex.

I'm also wary of Parting Shot because unlike U-turn it will reliably affect switch-ins regardless of their resistance to Bug, and it is a generically great move on a bulky pivot. The big question here is whether or not its neccessary when U-turn does the same thing without negatively affecting its checks in such a direct way.
Click to expand...

I want to comment on this a little. It's more of a feel thing than a real thing, but I think the only hazard 25w should be allowed to set is Sticky Web. As you said, we're going to face stiff competition from other Water Spikers who aren't flying weak (Toxapex, Arghonaut, Greninja). If we want hazard setting to be a role, I think it makes sense to do the bug type move that has such poor distribution that sometimes Necturna blows her Sketch on it.

Then again, the flipside of the argument is that Hazard Setting is anti-concept, as it helps our team more than it helps us stay and tank it out. This is especially true for Sticky Web as we're not abusing it with our abysmal speed tier. This may just not be a role we're well suited for, generally speaking.

I also want to say that I am strongly, strongly against Parting Shot on 25w. Pivoting out feels wrong a little...not so wrong we shouldn't get U-turn, but a little off. U-turn is absolutely enough though. Parting Shot is generically strong, so much so that 25w is unlikely to ever stick around for more than a turn or two before Shots are fired.
 
Roland le preaux said:
I just don't think Shell Trap is really justified. It is a defensive-ish move, but it doesn't have any particular synergy with our ability the way Spiky Shield does. It just seems like a very specific tool to cheese the various physically offensive Grass types in the tier, and it would be the least effective against the most powerful of them, Necturna, who would be too busy setting up on us with Substitute/Shift Gear/Shell Smash to even bother activating the trap until it is has already been revealed. Necturna would then proceed to boost until it could just OHKO us and not have to worry about counterattack.
Click to expand...
Necturna at +2 already OHKO's with Stone Edge or Power Whip without a Resist Berry, and +4 Phantom Force. If it sets up with Shell Smash, it takes chunks of damage from Ice Shard or Sucker Punch. At -2, it is taking ~41% damage from Ice Shard, making Stealth Rocks + Spiky Shield a 2HKO.

Spiky Shield forces Phantom Force to bypass Protect, and Shell Trap is the OHKO at -1 which forces it to Shell Smash one more time to get to - 2. If it PF's at +2, all it is going to do is kill itself. If it Z moves at +2, Spiky Shield eats it, dealing chip to itself. With Sucker Punch also on the menu, with a guaranteed 2hko even at -1, offensive Necturna sets still cannot freely do whatever they want.

The Shell Trap is there to break through non-TG Syclant and Mega-Scizor who want to tempt fate by risking it having HP-Fire (Neutral SpA no investment = 46-55) and boosting all the way to +6 while still taking hits - and there is nothing preventing it from running both it its role is to lure them out. As you said, with the plentitude of Grass threats, including Ferro, HP Fire is a decent stop gap in place of Lava Plume or similar.

Modedit: Removed flavor reasoning in quoted text.
 
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So I would like to take a second to try and answer some of Cbrevan's concerns when it comes to the trapping set, since I feel they were all valid - and something we should definitely look at as a community.

Not that it really matters as I believe all decisions you make concerning set bans are final, but I agree with removing Perish Trapping + Recover. However, that does prompt the question of whether or not we want access to recovery moves when it comes to 25W. I personally sit in the camp of not wanting Recover on 25W as I feel when combined with Poison Heal creates the opportunity for to much recovery. It's no secret we have a really solid ability that makes it tough for defensive mons to check us since if we're willing to sacrifice something like Stealth Rock vs a mon like Clefable (a non CM set) it really can't force us out as it simply doesn't have the damage output. With that said I'll continue discussing trapping options with Perish Song in mind, but just a note that this is all for naught if the decision to add Recover to our list of options is made.

I will not deny that Perish Song makes way for us to threaten a lot of our checks that are defensive in nature, but I will note this isn't a completely horrible scenario. Two examples brought up were Tomahawk and Jumbao, which thanks to some calcs from revi higher in the thread show this isn't really true (at least with these two, but I'll discuss the other ones later on). Tomahawk has the ability to run an offensive set and wipe us out, or run taunt and similarly shut down a Perish Trap set. Jumbao similarly has the option to avoid trapping by way of running an offensive set. While we still trap defensive Jumbao I would like to raise the question of whether or not a mon running a set like MoonBlast/HP Ground/Recover/Wish without much offensive investment should be protected as a switch in. Yes it comes in with the opportunity to pass a wish, but it's hardly a threat to break us on its own - meaning that the Jumbao user could hard switch into something else, like an offensive check (but this does risk more damage as no wish is being passed). This is a scenario we all need to think about and come to an answer on.

With regards to truly defensive pokes that really don't have a way to break us like Clefable, Ferrothorn, Arghonaut, and Toxapex I can't argue we'll make their life difficult. I could try to finely word some way to smooth over how we won't make that big of an impact trapping these, but I wont, since we will. I Would however like to mention a few outs of sorts that a lot of these mons have, albeit at the cost of their lives. It should be noted none of these trades are equal, just that this isn't a flat 100% win/lose scenario in the grand scheme of things. Yes the opposition to 25W loses their mon in this case, but the opposing mon is still given several turns to make an impact even if they're passive. I'll break down Ferrothorn for an example just to keep this briefer. Ferrothorn at the cost of its life in a game will get up layers of spikes, and can potentially Leech Seed/Twave/Knock/Power Whip/Gyro Ball whatever the user feels best vs the forced switch in, chunking or crippling whatever comes in, when everyone see that fabled [Perish Next Turn]. The Ferrothorn user also gets a jolt of momentum as they're able to switch out into whatever mon they desire, which hopefully helps them make up the lost ground. I wont try and change a mind that losing your Ferrothorn wont suck, I just want to point out it's usually never as cut and dry as simply a mon being eliminated since the trapee gets to cripple + grab momentum unless your opponent has 25W + a counter that doesn't care about anything your mon does ever (and if that's the case you probs weren't doing much with your passive mon anyway).

Just above I mentioned this was big for passive mons as they can do things like cripple with status + grab momentum, but I'd also like to point out real quick that offensive mons similarly get a little revenge since something like Choice Band Zygarde gets to hit something with Banded Arrows and grab momentum. That said offensive mons in general wont be trapped simply because they'll either break 25W or switch out as we come in no matter our set since no one should be really switching any Zygarde into 25W.

The last issue I saw brought up was the fear of Trapping + set up, and while I don't want to brush this aside I would like to bring up one example: Mean Look / Curse / Moonlight / Attack Umbreon. This is the sort of mon that comes to mind when i think of trapper set up. All I'll say is that from past examples of this strategy proving extremely mediocre, especially with Baton Pass being banned, I just don't see it as a threat. However, I am open to hearing concrete concerns about this, since I just fail to see it right now. We Bulk Up for instance then still immediately fear any offensive check that hits on the special side since we're still extremely slow leaving us vulnerable. I understand our healing is more reliable than Moonlight with 8pp, but I still think the results will be extremely similar.

There are two more things I'd like to talk about, the first being the trapper match up versus styles of play. Versus things like HO and more standard Offense we'll have a really tough time, having issues with trapping anything. BO and Balance comes down to whether or not they have something that can offensively pressure 25W, and honestly going up against a mon like 25W with Pheal you need something a bit more offensive taking it on or you're just not gonna break it - look at Gliscor being a competent stall breaker since fat mons struggle with it in general thanks to its status immunity. This means the only style of teams that are going to have serious issues with 25w are stall and some fat balances that plan on going hard into some defensive pivot that doesn't have a shot at actually taking down 25W on a super consistent basis. Fat balances might have to adapt a bit, but I actually see this as a potential bonus for fat teams as they can run a 25W of their own cancelling out other trap attempts from 25W since you simply Whirlpool after coming in on their Whirlpool guaranteeing you'll go down together, or scaring the opposition out into a check which you then get to grab some chip on with Whirlpool + Protect. I'll also say I don't see the trading of 25W for 25W as an awful thing since stall is removing a stall breaker for the price of one mon which isn't awful. Especially when you consider how tough it is for stall to handle certain mons like Heatran and M-Mawile who make a simple 1v1 sound like a bit of a picnic (rip Dugtrio). Also stall is a very formulaic style with a lot of staples, so I don't feel to bad about throwing this mon as a potential staple in a trapper meta (which I'll touch on in a minute since a trapper meta is ridiculous). I think if you actually break it down 25W could be seen as a big boon to boosting stalls viability given a Perish Trap option since it gives stall and fat balances a trapper which they love (see Banded Weavile being on the main ORAS OU stall team for a huge chunk of the generation). It also provides stall a wincon vs other stall since you can trap and switch into a bulky do nothing mon that isn't dying in 1 hit to anything an opposing fat mon is throwing at it. All in all the lack luster match up vs offense, and the potential cancellation effect vs opposing fat if you're both running 25W in a Trapper meta (once again I'll touch on this very soon) leads to me believing 25W wont become overpowered in the meta.

I told you I'd touch on this, and I just want to say very bluntly that this set wont take over. Infact if a Perish Trap set becomes the best set for 25W the viability of the mon as a whole will fall. The other examples of Perish Trappers in any smogon meta are Azumarill and Araquanid, who had more popular sets, and tried to catch things by surprise with a Whirlpool or Spider Web. If it becomes expected that most 25W's are running a trap oriented set people will play different making the trapping harder, and the mon less effective. I still believe the mon will be good, but it will fall far from great.

In the end I still am very supportive of Perish Song + Whirlpool being considered as an option. I think it will be a strong set when used, but I don't think it will become broken, which I feel is the overlying concern when it comes to any set suggestion. I wrote this in bits and pieces, so if anything was unclear feel free to hit me up and I'll do my best to try and explain myself in a clear manner.
 
I'm going to advocate in favor of Wish in this post. Unlike Recover or other instant reliable recovery, it doesn't compete with Spiky Shield for a moveslot. It's more effective when used in tandem with it.

75 % recovery in two turns might be a lot, but Gliscor could do the same by running both Roost and Protect in the same moveset, which it doesn't as consuming the second moveslot isn't worth it most of the time. CAP 25W would also be pretty annoyed by this, but if its only reliable recovery move is Wish, it really wants Spiky Shield as well then, despite the cost of what could be a very useful coverage or disrupting move.

This leads me to a third argument : one could fear that Perish Trap or another stallbreaker variant could become unhealthy with Recover. However, Wish is once again very flawed if used alone. A standard Cleric CAP 25W with it is already a case of 4MSS, and in a Persih Trap set, with Infestation / Whirlpool and Perish Song being mandatory, it's even harder to insert Wish since it competes with other moves like Spiky Shield, Substitue, attacking moves, disrupting moves like Disable... The same applies to most set-up sweepers and stallbreaker variants.

Finally, another reason why I think Wish should absolutely figure in CAP 25W's moveset is the viability of what would likely be the standard set. I gave calcs in my first moveset submission in order to show how our Pokemon fairs against the Ground-types it's supposed to counter, and while it's true that it might take two hits from something like CB Zygarde Outrage with Poison Heal recovery, it cannot OHKO it back with Ice Beam and the passive recovery won't be enough to come on it multiple times throughout te match unless your opponent plays very passively. Zygarde is just an example but the case is mostly the same with every thing CAP 25W should be able to counter. Otherwise, it may be just be a soft check to any of these Pokemon. Besides, don't forget that it suffers from being weak to SR, which already hampers its ability to switch on things, and that it needs to distinguish itself from other bulky Water-types like Arghonaut, Gastrodon and Toxapex. Poison Heal may be an excellent ability, but it doesn't fix these issues all by itself.
 
Modification to a set:

Moveset Submission:

Movesest Name: Bulky Swords Dance
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Facade
Move 3: Aqua Jet / Leech Life / Liquidation
Move 4: Spiky Shield / Leech Life
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Nature: Adamant / Brave
Click to expand...

25w is pretty self-sufficent on its own, but I feel like the Swords Dance set is missing the opportunity for one of water's strengths, priority. With Facade providing a strong neutral hit, one of the only things scaring 25w is the sheer amount of fast, powerful Rock types in CAP, specifically Mega Crucibelle and Stratagem. It can afford this over Liquidation, as even though Liquidation is stronger CAP, boosted priority in a metagame with so many threats weak to Water is impressive. It particularly dismantles Trick Room teams, as it can 2HKO Fidgit and rip through Alola-Wak and MegaCamel. Calcs:

+2 252+ Atk Golisopod Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Fidgit: 216-254 (54.8 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Golisopod Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Colossoil: 300-354 (73.7 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
+1 252+ Atk Golisopod Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 188-224 (58.9 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (after Intimidate)
+2 252+ Atk Golisopod Aqua Jet vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 460-544 (146.9 - 173.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Golisopod Aqua Jet vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 212-252 (65.6 - 78%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Golisopod Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 326-386 (101.5 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Golisopod Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crucibelle-Mega: 290-344 (81.9 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Golisopod Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crucibelle-Mega: 290-344 (81.9 - 97.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (If Crucibelle took SR damage on the switch in before Mega Evolving)
+2 252+ Atk Golisopod Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 139-165 (46.4 - 55.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Aqua Jet is great on Swords Dance. The last slot can go to a healing slot, either Spiky Shield for easy Toxic Orb activation and defense against Z-moves like Fly-Z Lando-T, Tornadus-T, and Gyara, or Leech Life for boosted draining and additional STAB.
 
Yo.

I've come to the decision to disallow Perish Song. Gross Sweep brought up valid points in that the set would not be dominant and that it would be heavily matchup reliant, but in the end the chance for 25w to lure in what would otherwise be safe switch ins isn't something I can allow. The fact remains that 25w has the bulk and ability to effectively stall out two turns against a lot of Pokemon, and the nature of Perish Song means that even walls that hit us super effectively, such as Tomohawk, are not guaranteed to beat us in the race to KO us before the timer is up.

Another decision I've come to is to ban 50% health recovery moves. This includes Recover and all its variants, Synthesis, Moonlight, Shore Up, and Wish. It's been argued in this thread and on Discord that 75% recovery in combination with Protect gives 25w an unneeded amount of longevity, and that it puts a lot of pressure on the opponent to have Pokemon that can OHKO it after Stealth Rocks. Given the multiple directions we're pursuing with 25w, the wisest choice would be to limit recovery to Poison Heal in order to ensure 25w has adequate counterplay.

Lunge will also be disallowed because of how difficult it makes breaking through 25w with a physical attacker. One way to look at Lunge is that its an Intimidate that procs whenever 25w attacks that alsos stack upon itself. Lunge has very little opportunity cost but caries with it a massive reward for 25w, which is why it is disallowed.

Now, moving onto approved movesets.

Name: Sticky Web
Move 1: Sticky Web
Move 2: U-Turn / Toxic
Move 3: Protect
Move 4: Scald
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Careful / Calm

This is a stripped down version of the original submission, Speed Control Pivot, in order to focus solely on the Sticky Web aspect of the set. Sticky Web provides 25w with a niche over other bulky Waters. I left out Rapid Spin and Parting Shot because there isn't a clear consensus on having these moves.

Name: Isolation Trapper
Move 1: Liquidation
Move 2: Spiky Shield
Move 3: Psycho Shift / Toxic
Move 4: Infestation
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 240 SpD / 4 Spe
Nature: Careful

Toxic trapping is a potential niche for 25w and hasn't been argued against. It is also unlikely to be unbalanced due to the passive nature of the set and lack of recovery moves.

Movesest Name: Bulky Swords Dance
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Facade
Move 3: Aqua Jet
Move 4: Spiky Shield / Leech Life
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Nature: Adamant / Brave

This is Deck Knights edit of the original set that includes Aqua Jet as a way to exert pressure against faster Pokemon. While the viability of this set is questionable, Swords Dance is the only relevant boosting move that has been brought up that comes with a low risk of being overpowering.

In total, these three sets represent the three directions we can pursue with 25w, hazard setting, trapping, and set up options. We should now focus on exploring the sets that have been brought up and evaluating them in greater detail and in relation to eachother. Some questions we can focus on are: should we give 25w access to other entry hazards? Should 25w have access to hazard removal? Is Taunt balanced with trapping moves? How do we feel about the balance of defensive boosting moves such as Bulk Up, Coil, and Calm Mind? Would they be balanced in combination with trapping moves? Aside from Toxic and Scald, what do people think about other status inducing moves? Do we want to give 25w access to hazing and/or phazing moves?
 
cbrevan said:
Yo.

I've come to the decision to disallow Perish Song. Gross Sweep brought up valid points in that the set would not be dominant and that it would be heavily matchup reliant, but in the end the chance for 25w to lure in what would otherwise be safe switch ins isn't something I can allow. The fact remains that 25w has the bulk and ability to effectively stall out two turns against a lot of Pokemon, and the nature of Perish Song means that even walls that hit us super effectively, such as Tomohawk, are not guaranteed to beat us in the race to KO us before the timer is up.

Another decision I've come to is to ban 50% health recovery moves. This includes Recover and all its variants, Synthesis, Moonlight, Shore Up, and Wish. It's been argued in this thread and on Discord that 75% recovery in combination with Protect gives 25w an unneeded amount of longevity, and that it puts a lot of pressure on the opponent to have Pokemon that can OHKO it after Stealth Rocks. Given the multiple directions we're pursuing with 25w, the wisest choice would be to limit recovery to Poison Heal in order to ensure 25w has adequate counterplay.

Lunge will also be disallowed because of how difficult it makes breaking through 25w with a physical attacker. One way to look at Lunge is that its an Intimidate that procs whenever 25w attacks that alsos stack upon itself. Lunge has very little opportunity cost but caries with it a massive reward for 25w, which is why it is disallowed.

Now, moving onto approved movesets.

Name: Sticky Web
Move 1: Sticky Web
Move 2: U-Turn / Toxic
Move 3: Protect
Move 4: Scald
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Careful / Calm

This is a stripped down version of the original submission, Speed Control Pivot, in order to focus solely on the Sticky Web aspect of the set. Sticky Web provides 25w with a niche over other bulky Waters. I left out Rapid Spin and Parting Shot because there isn't a clear consensus on having these moves.

Name: Isolation Trapper
Move 1: Liquidation
Move 2: Spiky Shield
Move 3: Psycho Shift / Toxic
Move 4: Infestation
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 240 SpD / 4 Spe
Nature: Careful

Toxic trapping is a potential niche for 25w and hasn't been argued against. It is also unlikely to be unbalanced due to the passive nature of the set and lack of recovery moves.

Movesest Name: Bulky Swords Dance
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Facade
Move 3: Aqua Jet
Move 4: Spiky Shield / Leech Life
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Nature: Adamant / Brave

This is Deck Knights edit of the original set that includes Aqua Jet as a way to exert pressure against faster Pokemon. While the viability of this set is questionable, Swords Dance is the only relevant boosting move that has been brought up that comes with a low risk of being overpowering.

In total, these three sets represent the three directions we can pursue with 25w, hazard setting, trapping, and set up options. We should now focus on exploring the sets that have been brought up and evaluating them in greater detail and in relation to eachother. Some questions we can focus on are: should we give 25w access to other entry hazards? Should 25w have access to hazard removal? Is Taunt balanced with trapping moves? How do we feel about the balance of defensive boosting moves such as Bulk Up, Coil, and Calm Mind? Would they be balanced in combination with trapping moves? Aside from Toxic and Scald, what do people think about other status inducing moves? Do we want to give 25w access to hazing and/or phazing moves?
Click to expand...

Just a very quick question. Why would Perish Song make 25w more dangerous for the CAP meta than Perish Trap Azumarill? I'd argue it has a worse defensive typing than it, and without reliable recovery it's hard to keep it lasting for 4 turns because it's bulk isn't that great against stronger threats. The only thing it really has going for it is the potential of a more accurate trapping move over Whirlpool (Infestation/Spider Web), Poison Heal (which one could argue it would take the place of Iapapa berry on Azu due to the need to hold the Toxic Orb), and a slightly better Protect move (Spikey Shield). Otherwise, I've noticed in other sets it's been pretty underwhelming as a defensive threat and even the offensive sets brought up here thus far; it's looking outclassed compared to Arganaught, Pyroak, Toxapex, etc.
 
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Dece1t said:
Just a very quick question. Why would Perish Song make 25w more dangerous for the CAP meta than Perish Trap Azumarill? I'd argue it has a worse defensive typing than it, and without reliable recovery it's hard to keep it lasting for 4 turns because it's bulk isn't that great against stronger threats. The only thing it really has going for it is the potential of a more accurate trapping move over Whirlpool (Infestation/Spider Web), Poison Heal (which one could argue it would take the place of Iapapa berry on Azu due to the need to hold the Toxic Orb), and a slightly better Protect move (Spikey Shield). Otherwise, I've noticed in other sets it's been pretty underwhelming as a defensive threat and even the offensive sets brought up here thus far; it's looking outclassed compared to Arganaught, Pyroak, Toxapex, etc.
Click to expand...

The effect of double Leftovers really can't be understated. You could feasibly run a set like:

Movesest Name: Perish Song Trapper
Move 1: Perish Song
Move 2: Substitute
Move 3: Spiky Shield
Move 4: Infestation
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe (spread would depend)
Nature: Impish

Eventually you'd get to the point where you just can't switch in something else in to Infestation (see Pajantom), Substitute against a move that won't break Substitute (again, you've tailored the mon to tank these hits), Perish Song, and use Spiky Shield in combination with Substitute. Even if you can only survive 1 hit behind Substitute before it breaks, you break even with Poison Heal recovery. Infestation also has better accuracy than Whirlpool, and Infestation has been the trapping move of choice on CAP25w.

So, why is this better than Azumarill?
1) Poison Heal allows Substitute to be run a lot easier.
2) Poison Heal heals a rather significant amount for passive healing and doesn't rely on falling below 25% to heal again.
3) Infestation can't miss, and Whirlpool can.
4) CAP25w has 91/110/97 bulk, and Azumarill has slightly worse 100 / 80 / 80.
5) CAP25w has more roles than Azumarill, as offensive Azumarill usually flops in the current metagame.
 
Moveset Submission

Name: Trick Room Setter
Move 1: Ice Beam / Scald
Move 2: Leech Life / Scald / U-Turn
Move 3: Baneful Bunker / Spiky Shield
Move 4: Trick Room
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpA
Nature: Relaxed (+Def -Spe)
  • 25Ws Typing complements Fidgit well, allowing it to set up on threats that Fidgit can't reliably or at all such as Landorus(barring Fly Z), Colossoil, Zygarde, Syclant, and other Ground, Ice, Water, and Psychic(to an extent) types
  • Ice Beam with 184 EVs in SpA guarantees a KO on non defensive variants of Landorus
  • Leech life 2HKOs both Colossoil sets and provides STAB recovery
  • Scald can be used both as STAB and to spread burns
  • U-Turn could be used to provide chip damage and to see if your opponent is switching out that turn
  • Protect variants can be used to reduce damage from a predicted Fly Z from Lando and of course to allow for extra Poison Heal recovery
  • Baneful Bunker is probably more useful for a set without Toxic, but Spiky Shield or regular Protect could be used instead
  • The rest of the EVs are put into HP then Defense to maximize bulk
 
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Im kinda surprised there isnt a basic utility set yet so I wanted to suggest one.

Basic Utility
-------------
cap25w @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 236 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock / Defog
- Ice Beam / Scald
- Toxic
- Baneful Bunker / Spiky Shield

Stealth Rock is a good move that fits onto any team. It will separate it from other Water types like Arghonaut immediately. Stealth Rock doesnt have an affect on checks and counters because it should be assumed in all scenarios.
Defog is a good move for this mon, its one of the few mons that defogs quite safely on Spikes Syclant and it'll be very nice to just Defog for its own longevity- it can be paired with a more reliable defogger if necessary. Defog can also remove SR from Heatran, and Spikes from Argho. These 2 moves are important because they provide some concrete purpose to the mon for every match, and paired with its benefits as status / knock off absorber it'll find some more usage. This mon pairs nicely with Heatran, Ferrothorn, very common hazard setters that can appreciate making up a nice core of role compression. Similarly, hazard removal like Lando, Colossoil, Zapdos all have nice type synergy with a Stealth Rock set.
The reason this set doesnt have Spikes is because that would cause more overlap with Arghonaut.

Ice Beam is a common move on water types which hits all of our targets very hard, especially Zygarde and non-Z Landorus-T. It pairs well with Stealth Rock, since it hits common hazard removal like Zapdos, Tomohawk, Colossoil, and Tornadus-T. That being said, it doesnt hit Zapdos or Tornadus-T hard enough with non-gimmick sets to remove them from being a check, as Zapdos is capable of roosting off the damage and Torn can pivot out. It'll also hit Pajantom a bit harder than any other options. However, it lets it be less of a free switchin.

Scald is better for the Defog set since it'll threaten Heatran while still covering Ground types including setters Landorus-T, Fidgit, hitting Mega Swampert hardest in rain etc. It can also put a burn on Ferrothorn.

Toxic is important to generically hit everything on such a passive pokemon.

Baneful Bunker is a move that I dont think should be discounted. Its especially annoying to u-turners that try and dodge the unfavourable matchup against 25w, or rapid spinners. Over the course of the match it does far more damage against opponents than Spiky Shield and in most cases the bulky mons that you dont want to inflict with regular poison can be tanked once while you land a Toxic. Alternatively you can use Spiky Shield.

The EVs allow 25w to eat some uninvested super-effective special STAB from common defoggers, Tomohawk, Zapdos, and Tornadus-T in order to use Toxic on them. It'll also improve its ability to take any STAB from Heatran, and some other mons. Meanwhile, it'll still take common attacks from the Ground types it wants to check. There's the option for more physically defensive EVs too.

0 SpA Araquanid Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 260-308 (68 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Araquanid Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 224-268 (62.5 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Araquanid Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Colossoil: 142-168 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

0 SpA Araquanid Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 118-140 (39.4 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Araquanid Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 118-140 (30.8 - 36.5%)

0 SpA Araquanid Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 130-154 (31.4 - 37.1%)

0 SpA Araquanid Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom: 100-118 (32.3 - 38.1%)

0 SpA Araquanid Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 134-162 (41.4 - 50.1%)



These calcs are quite weak, but theyre also some of the best instant-dmg output we have available. Hopefully it shows them as usable while not overpowering checks.
 
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Why am I seeing Baneful Bunker in almost all the submissions?

I don't get why you want to use this move when
- Spiky Shield is better
- Normal Poison is worst than Bad Poison
 
david0895 said:
Why am I seeing Baneful Bunker in almost all the submissions?

I don't get why you want to use this move when
- Spiky Shield is better
- Normal Poison is worst than Bad Poison
Click to expand...
Neither one is strictly worse than the other. Spiky shield is better if you're running toxic as well, but if you aren't, baneful bunker will do much more damage than spiky shield over time. Remember, normal poison may be worse than toxic, but it's better than no status at all.
 
david0895 said:
Why am I seeing Baneful Bunker in almost all the submissions?

I don't get why you want to use this move when
- Spiky Shield is better
- Normal Poison is worst than Bad Poison
Click to expand...

I agree. I thought we pretty much settled on Spiky Shield over Baneful Bunker earlier in the thread. 25w doesn't really need both RMs, and Spiky Shield is decidedly better imo.
 
Roland le preaux said:
I agree. I thought we pretty much settled on Spiky Shield over Baneful Bunker earlier in the thread. 25w doesn't really need both RMs, and Spiky Shield is decidedly better imo.
Click to expand...
We can have both, it isn't one or the other and Baneful Bunker offers some useful compression within a move set. If you're not running Toxic, Baneful Bunker is far better than Spiky Shield. Spiky Shield does 1/8 damage on contact, so on average 1/16 per turn in a 1v1. Regular poison also does 1/16 per turn, but you don't have to protect every other turn which allows you to be less predictable and if you switch out, they are still damaged by poison. Now of course, if you are running Toxic you would probably want to run Spiky Shield so you aren't accidentally poisoning something you want to toxic.
 
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Frostbiyt said:
Moveset Submission

Name: Trick Room Setter
Move 1: Ice Beam / Scald
Move 2: Leech Life / Scald / U-Turn
Move 3: Baneful Bunker / Spiky Shield
Move 4: Trick Room
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpA
Nature: Relaxed (+Def -Spe)
  • 25Ws Typing complements Fidgit well, allowing it to set up on threats that Fidgit can't reliably or at all such as Landorus(barring Fly Z), Colossoil, Zygarde, Syclant, and other Ground, Ice, Water, and Psychic(to an extent) types
  • Ice Beam with 184 EVs in SpA guarantees a KO on non defensive variants of Landorus
  • Leech life 2HKOs both Colossoil sets and provides STAB recovery
  • Scald can be used both as STAB and to spread burns
  • U-Turn could be used to provide chip damage and to see if your opponent is switching out that turn
  • Protect variants can be used to reduce damage from a predicted Fly Z from Lando and of course to allow for extra Poison Heal recovery
  • Baneful Bunker is probably more useful for a set without Toxic, but Spiky Shield or regular Protect could be used instead
  • The rest of the EVs are put into HP then Defense to maximize bulk
Click to expand...

I agree with wanting a Trick Room set, as that offensive/defensive synergy is amazing, although, I don’t think you’d want to run Protect-esc moves with it, as that would take away your precious TR turns.

You could go with a more offensive variant. Possibly something like this?


Name: Offensive Trick Room Setter
Move 1: Liquidation
Move 2: U-Turn / Leech Life
Move 3: Facade
Move 4: Trick Room
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Nature: Brave (+Atk -Spe)
 
VannAccessible said:
I agree with wanting a Trick Room set, as that offensive/defensive synergy is amazing, although, I don’t think you’d want to run Protect-esc moves with it, as that would take away your precious TR turns.

You could go with a more offensive variant. Possibly something like this?


Name: Offensive Trick Room Setter
Move 1: Liquidation
Move 2: U-Turn / Leech Life
Move 3: Facade
Move 4: Trick Room
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Nature: Brave (+Atk -Spe)
Click to expand...
I think TR 25w would still want some form of protect for scouting moves and getting PHeal recovery. It probably would only use Protect(/BB/SS) when TR is not set up which it would have plenty of opportunity for since it's most likely to come in after TR has ended, hit protect, set up TR, then pivot out. Also protecting against SSSS Lando T would be very valuable.

252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72+ Def protected CAP25w: 133-157 (34.4 - 40.6%)
 
Trick Room is a horrible idea. CAP 25w might not fit well into current builds with Slowking, but it still provides this already powerful archetype with more options, which is something we should probably avoid, as TR probably is just one good mon away from being utterly broken. Therefore, we shouldn't add this move into our movepool recklessly, especially given that we already have Sticky Webs for Speed Control, and many other support moves are still on the table. Speaking of which:

Pipotchi said:
cap25w @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 236 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock / Defog Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam / Scald
- Toxic
- Baneful Bunker / Spiky Shield
Click to expand...

I really like the idea of CAP 25w having access to both Stealth Rock and Hazard Removal. I think this really gives us the role compression that is needed to set us apart from other bulky water types, and compensates for our lack of direct recovery. One minor nitpick I have with this proposed set is that I think that Rapid Spin is a better fit than Defog, as there are bigger risks with using that move, as it can be blocked by Ghost-types like Pajantom and is punished by Rocky Helmet/Iron Barbs like Ferrothorn. Defog could be blocked by Taunt, but most of its users like Heatran and Gliscor can be threatened by our moves, so it would be much more safer, and I don't think that is needed.

Something else I'm not a fan of is including both Spiky Shield and Baneful Bunker. Just because the concept is about moves that synergize with our ability doesn't mean that we need to include ALL moves that do. Doing this just seems excessive, and doesn't really add much to the final product, as both move serve more or less the same function. I can see pros and cons for both moves, but I personally prefer Baneful Bunker, as the damage it provides accumulates over time, and if a your team would benefit more from exploiting other statuses like toxic poison or paralysis, you can simply use Protect. Sure, Spiky Shield would be strictly better than Protect, but only damages the opponent once per use, and the benefits gained from it are superficial at best if we already have access to another "upgraded Protect" move
 
Frostbiyt said:
We can have both, it isn't one or the other and Baneful Bunker offers some useful compression within a move set. If you're not running Toxic, Baneful Bunker is far better than Spiky Shield. Spiky Shield does 1/8 damage on contact, so on average 1/16 per turn in a 1v1. Regular poison also does 1/16 per turn, but you don't have to protect every other turn which allows you to be less predictable and if you switch out, they are still damaged by poison. Now of course, if you are running Toxic you would probably want to run Spiky Shield so you aren't accidentally poisoning something you want to toxic.
Click to expand...


Just want to chime in to correct this post. I actually agree with it, with respect to Baneful Bunker being useful. The correction comes in that it is actually underselling it. Regular poison does 1/8, not 1/16. The exact same damage as Spiky Shield, every single turn, but with the down side of not affecting Poison Types, Steel Types, and Pokemon already statused with something else.

Their seems to be a weird consensus that regular poison sucks, when this is really not the case. While it is true that you almost never see it used by itself, this is more a consequence of it not serving a specific role, like burn (which cripple's physical attackers), paralysis (which cripples fast Pokemon), and Toxic (which cannot be stalled out by walls. But, if inflicted for free, regular Poison is actually pretty nice, being generally stronger against offensive Pokemon than Toxic. It takes staying in for 4 full turns for Bad Poison to outpace Regular poison in damage.

Now, obviously, there is a tradeoff you get by going for Baneful Bunker. In addition to the aforementioned immunities, since you can only have one status at a time, inflicting it may be a disadvantage if you would rather have hit a Pokemon with a different status. But I think the overall ability it has to wear down offensive mons will generally more than make up for that.

With all that said, I feel like if we are going to have any improved version of protect, Baneful Bunker should be it, and we should forgo Spiky Shield completely. I think having both is not something we really want. Personally, I'm not even fully convinced that we need either, as we are going to be incredibly good as is, but if we are to have one, I'd rather give the one that simultaneously has more damage potential, while also having an easier work around, with two full types, and a few other mons, not being vulnerable to it.
 
As much as I adore the concept of a mom that can set trick room without being psychic and fits on TR builds without being weak to ground or fire (for once), I have to say it's pretty anti concept. Protecting wastes your TR turns, and using it outside of TR gives opponents a chance to set up or switch in, which is deadly against TR teams that dont have rooms up.

Toxic heal is supposed to be the crux of this mon, while a TR set more just has it as an afterthought.
 
Gale Wings Golurk said:
As much as I adore the concept of a mom that can set trick room without being psychic and fits on TR builds without being weak to ground or fire (for once), I have to say it's pretty anti concept. Protecting wastes your TR turns, and using it outside of TR gives opponents a chance to set up or switch in, which is deadly against TR teams that dont have rooms up.

Toxic heal is supposed to be the crux of this mon, while a TR set more just has it as an afterthought.
Click to expand...


I have to disagree. Other bulky TR setters have to choose whether to set TR OR recover in one turn. CAP25w would have the niche of setting TR a little easier, knowing that at the end of the turn it will recover a reasonable amount of HP. And I think the arguments that TR and Protect don’t belong together are wrong, too. Yes, Protect/BB/SS would take up a TR turn, but that’s okay since we’ll be healing, and there will still be at least two turns of TR left to abuse. The difference for CAP25w compared to other TR setters is that it would be setting it primarily for itself as opposed to support the team. I think TR pairs marvelously with Poison Heal, and would be pro-concept and a new way to use the move.
 
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