CAP 26 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment

Status
Not open for further replies.
Is anyone actually suggesting not giving it Psychic move if it did have it? There's a simar query as to why wouldn't you give a specially focused Steel type Flash Cannon.

The question how to build a mon that legitimately benefits from taking Doom Desire over Flash Cannon, or FS over Psychic.

DD has the benefit of higher BP and Flash Cannon weaker BP, sure (140 vs 160), vs FS 120 vs 180. But the argument remains the same, why create a Steel Special Attacker without Flash Cannon?
 
Just wanted to drop in and share my opinion that the arguments about Steel as a poor attacking type don't hold water in this argument, and that Doom Desire is the superior option here.

Yes, Steel-type has an attacking disadvantage in the number of Pokemon that resist it. However, Doom Desire has a base 140 power. If a Pokemon resists it, it still has base 70 power. If we do have STAB, those numbers change to 210 and 105 respectively. Even as a resisted attack, 70 and 105 power are still a reasonable amount of damage to deal, especially if we approaching this from a chip damage/pivoting perspective. This doesn't even factor in power-boosting abilities, if we go that route, and it's already likely that CAP26 will have a somewhat significant Special Attack stat to use either of these moves.

As it's been pointed out, we must incentivize these moves to make them worth using. I would rather see us use Doom Desire, since no matter what, it will ALWAYS deal damage, regardless of the amount. Future Sight is too risky with Dark-types crawling around, and leads to significantly easier counterplay.

Frankly, though, I don't think we necessarily have to limit ourselves to one or the other, and a set utilizing both could lead us to more versatility moving forward in the process.
 
Effective 105BP is worse than effective 180, though? And even if Dark swaps in, you are in a better condition to control the state of play as there are much less answers.
 

DetroitLolcat

Maize and Blue Badge Set 2014-2017
is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
We need to get away from this boogeyman of Dark-types negating Future Sight. The fact that four relevant Pokemon in the tier will be immune to the move we're trying to build around is immaterial, especially when a quarter of the tier can sponge Doom Desires like it's nothing anyway. The only good Dark-types in the game are Greninja, Mega Tyranitar, Colossoil, and Weavile. Greninja and Weavile can't switch into anyhing anyway, while Mega Tyranitar and Colossoil have about eight hundred different weaknesses to exploit. The idea that the presence of Dark-types should force our hand into Doom Desire is silly. We should also accept that barring some *very* niche Ability choices, we're going to have to railroad ourselves into Steel or Psychic-type. There is no Pokemon in any metagame that runs non-STAB Future Sight or Doom Desire.

However, assuming we go the pivot route, we should also look at the defensive benefits of Steel vs. Psychic. While Psychic is the better offensive type, Steel outclasses Psychic by a mile defensively. And CAP26's success hinges on both its ability to take hits as well as dish them out. Yes, Steel is a bad offensive typing. But Psychic is a bad defensive typing, and it's easier to complement a poor offensive STAB with a secondary typing than it is to shore up Psychic's defensive flaws. Making a Psychic-type pivot Pokemon is going to be very difficult when Necturna, Aurumoth, and Greninja are among the best sweepers in the tier. Furthermore, our entire strategy hinges on hitting opponents with two strong attacks of different types on the same turn. Sure, plenty of Pokemon can take a Doom Desire. But not many can take both a Doom Desire and a Focus Blast on the same turn, and that's our goal in the end. Lastly, we do want this Pokemon to use the move. And because of the BP difference between DD/FS and their next most powerful options, Doom Desire will be easier to "force" our CAP to use. I don't like this argument, but I have to admit it's valid.

Because of that, I think Doom Desire is the preferred choice.
 
And CAP26's success hinges on both its ability to take hits as well as dish them out. Yes, Steel is a bad offensive typing. But Psychic is a bad defensive typing, and it's easier to complement a poor offensive STAB with a secondary typing than it is to shore up Psychic's defensive flaws.
I'm not sure how this conclusion was drawn, but I definitely disagree with it. I think it is actually easier to complement Psychic's defensive capabilities than to complement Steel's offensive ones. Future Sight is inherently an offensive move, and the whole point of using it gain an offensive advantage later in the match by limiting the opponent's switch-ins. Thus, starting out with an already very strong offensive type allows more flexibility in the typing stage as there are fewer holes that need to be patched up. Defensively, the three types that would need to be addressed (chiefly Dark due to Pursuit, but also Ghost and Bug) have a good bit of variety in how they can be complemented.

Psychic Defensive Coverage
vs Bug: Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Flying, Ghost, Poison, Steel
vs Dark: Dark, Fairy, Fighting
vs Ghost: Dark, Normal (0x)
(Bold indicates something that resists multiple)

Examples: Dark, Fairy, and Fighting as secondary types all help our Psychic-type against Pursuit from Weavile and Tyranitar, as well as being able to take a Knock Off if it's worth it in the long run. Dark and Normal help stop Ghost-types, namely Necturna and Pajantom. Finally, Fairy, Fighting, FIre, and the rest of Bug's many resistances are mostly useful for U-turns from non-STAB users (which should be common due to the mon naturally causing a lot of switches), because there are not too many Bug-types that use STAB apart from U-turn (Aurumoth is an example).

Of course, this is all assuming we decide to go with a type that complements Psychic defensively, rather than offensively. Contrast this with Steel's offensive coverage:

Steel Offensive Coverage
vs Electric: Ground
vs Fire: Ground, Rock, Water
vs Steel: Fire, Fighting, Ground
vs Water: Grass, Electric

Examples: Ground coverage helps vs Crucibelle, Heatran, Volkraken, and Krilowatt, three of which 4x resist Doom Desire. Hitting Fire super-effectively is most useful for Heatran and Volkraken. Covering Steel and Water is important to hit a multitude of threats, although it is hard to cover most Steel types offensively (Kitsunoh / Heatran / Celesteela are immune to each type individually), but trying doesn't hurt considering how commonplace Pokemon like Heatran, Celesteela, Magearna, and Ferrothorn are. Waters are also fairly common: the main target is Arghonaut, but Krilowatt and Volkraken are also important.

And you'll see that the best type that synergizes with it offensively is Ground, which of course leaves you vulnerable to Pokemon such as Celesteela and Zapdos. With all that being said, I'd like to emphasize that I am not trying to prioritize one type here. Rather, I am trying to display why I think it would be much easier to support Psychic's inherent defensive flaws rather than Steel's offensive ones. This also goes with what I was saying previously: Future Sight / Doom Desire are moves designed for offensive momentum, and the ways that Psychic offensive coverage can benefit off of Psychic's already strong offensive prowess allow for typing suggestions both offensively and defensively, while I think Steel can plausibly only pick something that helps it offensively (otherwise Doom Desire becomes much less threatening). Take a look at Psychic's offensive coverage here:

Psychic Offensive Coverage
vs Psychic: Bug, Dark, Ghost
vs Steel: Fire, Fighting, Ground
vs Dark (0x): Bug, Fairy, Fighting

Examples: Trying to hit Dark-types such as Weavile and Tyranitar on the switch which could otherwise Pursuit-trap you is critical. Fighting is obviously a key type that does this (hitting both 4x SE) but Bug and Fairy both do a fine job. Steel-types are also very widespread and although they usually cannot threaten you in the immediate way that Pursuit-trappers can, covering them universally is a near-impossible task due to the Kitsunoh / Heatran / Celesteela core that I mentioned previously. Other Psychics such as Mega Lati@s, Tapu Lele, and Aurumoth that could otherwise come into a Future Sight without much trouble is another coverage option; however I don't think it is as crucial as covering the other two.

One, notice that Psychic has one less type to deal with then Steel does. Two, also notice that many of the types that could theoretically help Psychic out offensively could also support it defensively (Fighting, Fairy, Dark, Ghost). Again, we can contrast this with Steel:

Steel Defensive Coverage
vs Fire: Dragon, Fire, Rock, Water
vs Fighting: Bug, Fairy, Flying, Poison, Psychic
vs Ground: Bug, Grass, Flying (0x)

Examples: Fire-types like Heatran, Volkraken, and Smokomodo are very threatening to Steel-types, especially due to their secondary STAB or coverage options. Fighting-types like Mega Medicham, Hawlucha, and Tomohawk, are a little easier to cover because of the many resistances towards them. Also, Ground-types such as Colossoil and Landorus-Therian are a bit harder to cover due to both resistances being weak to Fire and Steel / Flying facing competition with Celesteela and Cawmodore.

None of the overlap here (Fire, Rock, Water, Grass) is bolded on either side, while Psychic has one bolded on both sides (Fighting), two on one side (Dark, Fairy), and one normal (Ghost). Again, I'm not aiming to suggest any type for CAP 26 atm, and I still don't really have a preference on any particular type for either a FS or DD user; I doubt I will until the typing stage. But I think this is pretty good evidence in favor of Psychic's defensive presence being easier to support, at least in the area of secondary typings, than Steel's offensive presence.

Lastly, we do want this Pokemon to use the move. And because of the BP difference between DD/FS and their next most powerful options, Doom Desire will be easier to "force" our CAP to use. I don't like this argument, but I have to admit it's valid.
I've also talked about this on Discord but I think is a really unhealthy way to think about this concept; and I also don't agree that it's valid. If we make it so that, as talked about in Discord, our mon doesn't have Flash Cannon at all and only has Doom Desire, that could severely hurt CAP 26's viability. And it has been argued that "it fulfills the concept as long as it uses Doom Desire" which is true, I guess, but sacrificing viability in exchange for using Doom Desire is not what we should aim for. We should strive to use a mon that wants to use FS / DD, not one that begrudgingly uses it due to it being their best Steel STAB. Luckily, we have two good examples of Pokemon that use Future Sight that also learn Psychic (which I'm sure no one is suggesting on leaving out of a FS user's movepool): Slowking and Slowbro. We should try to use these Pokemon as models to understand more what motivates a Pokemon to use Future Sight rather than Psychic, and work off of there. If we think that "by forcing the CAP to use FS / DD, we have succeeded in the concept" is valid logic, then we could literally make a mon that just knows Doom Desire and call it a day. Obviously, this is an extreme situation, but it works off of the logic. This is similar to a (I hope) joke Birkal made in Discord earlier today when he said:

[4:09 PM] Birkal: Give it two abilities, like regenerator and defeatist. Then, make it so the mon literally has to know DD in order to get regen. As like a required event move or something
Gg

Technically, Birkal's idea here would fulfill the concept: The CAP would almost definitely run Doom Desire, but also have its options limited severely if it ever wanted to run, say, a Choice item; it would pretty much be working with three slots. This is why I believe we should incentive the use of a delayed move, but don't "force it". I do think this concept is very limited in terms of how we can work with it (concerns Birkal has expressed as well); however, now that we have it, I think we should use this thread to explore what causes mons like Slowking to use Future Sight over Psychic, and apply these ideas to our own CAP, rather than try to severely restrict its options to the point of it having little flexibility. Even if our CAP used Future Sight or Doom Desire on one set, but decided to forgo it on another, I would still consider it a success because of how hard these moves are to work with.
 
Last edited:
Coming to the discussion fairly late, I've been mostly to this point having discussions on Discord and formulating what I think to be the most viable or useful idea. I'm ultimately at this point pro Doom Desire. I think my reasoning will probably echo what others have said, but ultimately its appeal to me is its ability to threaten a lot of the Fairy-type Pokemon in the metagame, as well as common Rocks setters like Crucibelle, Landorus and Clefable, because of its high BP and passable neutral coverage. In addition to this, it has a lot more defensive counter-play, with relatively common Pokemon like Krilowatt, Volkraken, Heatran, and Arghonaut being able to stomach it fairly easily.

What roles do these moves best support/encourage?

Based upon some of the characteristics I've mentioned above, I think that the use of Doom Desire naturally encourages a more bulky pivot. The reasoning being that a lot of the Pokemon that tend to resist the move are bulky offensive Pokemon. As such I don't think the role of wall breaker as many have suggested at various points is particularly feasible, as it may be checked by some of these offensive threats anyway. With this in mind, I think that being able to tank a hit from some of these checks and pivot out, allowing for another wall breaker to come in is much for pro-concept, as the initial Doom Desire will give a teammate additional power, and encourage certain Pokemon not to switch in. This brings to mind the Slowking, Passimian team building synergy that Quziel mentioned previously.

What tools work best with delayed attack moves?


To reiterate what a lot of people have said, I envision some of the best pro-concept tools to be protection moves as they can buy a free turn of the counter, phazing moves to swap out resists, pivoting moves to gain momentum, and high Base Power moves as a means to limit the amount of potential switch ins to Doom Desire. I'm personally against the idea of additional utility moves like hazards, hazard removal or knock-off, as I believe they contradict the point of using Doom Desire, and might lead to the move not being run. While as I and others have mentioned previously that Doom Desire scares hazard setters, that is something that I believe should be capitalised on by teammates rather than CAP 26 itself because they tend to be rather passive, and may encourage role compression in the form of CAP 26 becoming a full utility Pokemon. The potential synergy of using boosting moves is something that is a very fine balance, as it may encourage a more offensive set that forgoes Doom Desire such as what we see Reuniclus doing in the lower tiers.
 

SHSP

is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
I want to go into detail a bit on something that Birkal has brought up in his post, namely the idea of "immediate power." When I made that quote in Discord, I didn't mean strictly SpA stat or anything else. I meant that there is a specific zone of where we need CAP 26's power level to hit, a goldilocks zone that will encourage the use of the delayed moves without them either becoming too weak to use or too strong to justify using. This is not tied to any one area- it could have a solid STAB that forces switches, giving us a chance to set up a delayed move; it could be threatening a specific type of mon to force it out (think Wisp against an attacker that we beat). We need to keep this immediate power in this "Goldilocks" zone, where we have chances to use the move successfully without overshadowing it.

Incentivizing DD or FS is another question that's been tossed around, and I think the best approach to that is similar to what Quzeil and Gross Sweep have brought up. The strongest things the moves do is gain delayed momentum- a concept Reach went into explaining, with it being an almost sort of "entry hazard" that likely forces a resist in, and an assistant to the stronger wallbreakers on the team. The example of Garbodor struggling with checking Passimian with an FS looming overhead fits really well- it forces that sort of lose-lose situation we're aiming for. Another example came from a PM conversation with Mythlore where he mentioned the idea of Volkraken being checked by Arghonaut, but Argh being unable to come in and answer as a FS comes in, giving a serious tempo advantage and possibly even a kill to the Kraken user. There are definite situations where the supportive CAP 26 helps other breakers or cleaners do their job.
 
I wasn't originally planning on posting until typing, but some things that have popped up in discussion has led me to this post. I feel that many people are misunderstanding the use case of Doom Desire and Future Sight and I want to discuss them.

Yesterday in the CAP discord, someone posed the question of "What could you edit to [future sight] Slowking to make it OU." While there were various answers to this question, the main thing that stuck out to me was the lack of Future Sight targets. To understand what I mean by this, I'd like to first point to the original reason Slowking runs Future Sight on the CAP TR team.

[1:05 AM] LucarioOfLegends: snake_rattler this is a question I've genuinely wanted to ask, but why did you use Future Sight on Slowking over something more immediate?
[1:05 AM] LucarioOfLegends: like, what screamed out to you for you to want to have Future Sight on it?
[1:05 AM] snake_rattler: i was having trouble with tomo
[1:06 AM] snake_rattler: bulu baits it in so hard and future sight nabs it
[1:06 AM] snake_rattler: if it doesn't bulu smacks up whatever other mon switches in

The main use of Future Sight and Doom Desire is scenarios like this. Future Sight and Doom Desire are not moves that you run for your main STAB or for reasons you'd run other attacking moves. These moves are instead intended for certain match-ups such as the one above. Future Sight and Doom Desire are not the same type of move as normal STAB moves like Flash Cannon and Psychic and should not be compared to them as such. The primary reason why I think Future Sight is rarely used in normal tiers is that there needs to be a specific common match-up where it is relevant. Instead of trying to force CAP 26 to run Future Sight or Doom Desire, we should instead be trying to figure out how it can best utilize them to support the team. In my opinion, this concept is a mix of a target and partner concept - we need to target specific pokemon that are vulnerable to Doom Desire or Future Sight and identify partner pokemon that force these targets in. To show how this could potentially work, I played a few games today to try and show the interaction at work using Jirachi as a substitute for CAP 26. Thanks to Frostbiyt for playing a few games with me.


The turns of interest happens on turns 11-14 and turns 19-22.
Turn 11 Jirachi switches in
Turn 12 Jirachi uses Future Sight
Turn 13 Jirachi U-Turns into Greninja
Turn 14 Greninja clicks Dark Pulse as Ferrothorn switches in
The first thing I want to point out is that this would be entirely different if I instead had Psychic over Future Sight on my Jirachi. The psychic would've done negligible damage to Tornadus-T and on turn 14 Greninja would've been unable to pressure anything. The usage of Future Sight here instead put pressure on my opponent not on Turn 12, but instead allowed another pokemon (Greninja) to apply pressure two turns later on Turn 14.

The other interaction this game was as follows:
Turn 19: Tornadus-T U-turns into Jirachi
Turn 20: Jirachi uses Future Sight and dies
Turn 21: Landorus-T U-turns into Greninja (forcing in Arghonaut)
Turn 22: Greninja switches out as Arghonaut takes the Future Sight
While you could argue that this interaction only happened because Frost forgot how Future Sight works, this still showcases the interaction. This time, my opponent was forced to decide between sacking another pokemon to Greninja or threatening me out with Arghonaut and taking the Future Sight. Either way I get my Ash-Greninja and am in a significantly better situation than before.

This is an interaction where Future Sight is super effective on the target, but there are also interactions that don't involve the target being weak to Future Sight or Doom Desire. The calcs in the spoiler below show two interactions, using Jirachi (100 Special Attack) as a baseline.

+2 252 SpA Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios-Mega: 158-186 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(the +2 shows two attacks, also note that this is without the analytic boost)
252 SpA Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios-Mega: 163-193 (54.1 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sum: 106.6 - 125.8%
+2 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 241-285 (59.8 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(+2 shows two damage over two attacks, the turn tangrowth switches in and the following turn)
252 SpA Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 138-163 (34.2 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Sum: 94 - 111.1%

Due to the raw strength of Doom Desire, Greninja and Volkraken can break certain checks if they can force them in on the Doom Desire turn. These are not the only interactions that can be done with Future Sight and Doom Desire however. In these interactions, the target is forced in by another pokemon and is pressured by Future Sight or Doom Desire. There are also interactions where the target is forced in by Future Sight or Doom Desire and gets pressured by another pokemon. This would look something like this:

Turn 1: CAP 26 clicks Future Sight/Doom Desire
Turn 2: CAP 26 switches out into Heatran
Turn 3: The opponent either switches in a steel that dies to Heatran, or switches in something else which may not be able to take an attack from both Heatran and the Future Sight/Doom Desire

At it's heart, this is the same interaction as above. However, instead of targeting a specific pokemon that Heatran forces in, it instead targets what Future Sight/Doom Desire forces in. With this in mind, I want to ask a question to everyone:

With this idea of Future Sight and Doom Desire being match-up dependent in mind, what targets and partners do each of them prefer? Are any of these match-ups preferable when deciding if we want to focus on Future Sight or Doom Desire?

To very briefly give my thoughts on this, the most important thing about Future Sight in my opinion is its ability to hit most of the relevant bulky waters in the tier for super effective damage (Arghonaut and Toxapex.) Doom Desire on the other hand, hits the fairies in the tier (Clefable and Jumbao) as well as being able to hit things harder neutrally.

I'd also like to touch on a question that was originally presented by Dogfish44 in the original concept post.

One Pokemon which has been seen to fairly reliably use Future Sight is Slowking. What can we learn from Slowking about what makes a viable user of Future Sight? On the same token, what has led Jirachi to not be effective at using Doom Desire, and other Pokemon to not effectively use Future Sight?

To reword this question to focus on one part of it:

Why is Jirachi a poor user of Doom Desire and Future Sight?

In my opinion, Jirachi is a poor user of DD/FS due to how many options it has. This is partially because Serene Grace warps its sets and also because Jirachi wants to run Stealth Rock, Wish, U-Turn, Protect, Iron Head, Ice Punch, Fire Punch and many other moves. This is something we should avoid for CAP 26. If we give 26 too many utility options, it will be put on teams for those utility options instead of DD or FS.
 

SHSP

is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
Alright folks, this discussion is coming more and more to an end, so I'm ready to call the 48 Hour Warning on this thread. We've narrowed down a lot: A need for a delicate balance with our immediate power that lets us be able to set up the delayed moves, but also not overshadow them; a good idea of the benefits and weaknesses to the moves themselves, and a few roles that we should aim to fill. I'm making the call to focus on Doom Desire as the move we'll be focusing on, and a focus on Pivoting. These go hand in hand- with a need to fill the accepted idea of pivoting, and the idea that we'll likely need STAB, Doom Desire's steel type gives us a sizable advantage. In addition, the thoughts brought up of a more niche area of focus with an offensive Steel move user, a higher base power and a unique matchup against the current meta make the move preferable. Pivoting is widely considered the optimal path for a user of these sorts of moves, as we've discussed.

With these factors decided, Is there anything that we should address before we move on? We have a move, and a general move locked in. Are there any specific considerations to keep in mind as we move to Typing?
 

snake_rattler

Bold to assume that I won't have the last laugh...
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Alright folks, this discussion is coming more and more to an end, so I'm ready to call the 48 Hour Warning on this thread. We've narrowed down a lot: A need for a delicate balance with our immediate power that lets us be able to set up the delayed moves, but also not overshadow them; a good idea of the benefits and weaknesses to the moves themselves, and a few roles that we should aim to fill. I'm making the call to focus on Doom Desire as the move we'll be focusing on, and a focus on Pivoting. These go hand in hand- with a need to fill the accepted idea of pivoting, and the idea that we'll likely need STAB, Doom Desire's steel type gives us a sizable advantage. In addition, the thoughts brought up of a more niche area of focus with an offensive Steel move user, a higher base power and a unique matchup against the current meta make the move preferable. Pivoting is widely considered the optimal path for a user of these sorts of moves, as we've discussed.

With these factors decided, Is there anything that we should address before we move on? We have a move, and a general move locked in. Are there any specific considerations to keep in mind as we move to Typing?
While I'm personally very pleased with this decision, I'm also extremely glad that we've made the decision on Doom Desire vs Future Sight now rather than sometime later in the process. If you read through Pajantom's process archive, or were around for that, you might see / remember how contentious Spirit Shackle vs Anchor Shot was, even up to the full movepool stage. With the entire community behind one move, we're even more likely to succeed with this concept!

So, we're looking at a pivot. I wanted to break down what this means. "Pivot" is a very broad term; we can call Toxapex, Tangrowth, Tornadus-T, Heatran, Landorus-T, Magerana, and Mega Latios pivots. This means that, for the intents of this project, we haven't really locked into a super well-defined role yet. Pivots can still hit really hard though: Tornadus-T and Tangrowth, the "standard" offensive pivots on most teams have 110 Special Attack, and that's not slouching. The only thing that pivot really makes us focus on is prioritizing having a good combination of resists and bulk to ensure that we can switch in and out of battle often. That's about it. With Doom Desire, we're already looking at some effective type combinations for this purpose, and while prioritizing resists will naturally knock out typings that just don't provide good defensive resistances, it doesn't force us into a specific 2-3 typings imo. We can still find typings with a good balance of resists and offense if desirable (and imo it is). Bottom-line, SHSP's decision points the project in a great direction: we haven't necessarily limited the project in scope massively, but we have a broad fan of directions to take CAP26.
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
is a Top CAP Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
snake_rattler expressed exactly my question very well. "Pivot" seems to mean different things to different people in different contexts, can you (SHSP) be a little more precise in terms of what you mean?

This is important because I read it as basically throwing out the possibility of offensive builds, and even more so because many people will read "pivot" as a mandate for one specific powerful ability, which I'd rather not see sweep the Ability Stage unchallenged.
 
Last edited:

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Broadly I’d describe a Pivot as a Pokemon that can enter and exit the field often.

To be able to enter the field often, it needs to have a number of opposing Pokemon it doesn’t just beat, but beats so hard that it can come in against them repeatedly. Generally this means it needs to have the ability to heal in some way (note, this is broad and need not be the most reliable recovery. Pain Split Rotom can be a good pivot, for example.) but even then there have been pivots without reliable recovery in various metas.

Pivots need not just sit there. They should be able to force the opponent out of these bad matchups, and to do so they can annoy with status, etc but they can have attacking power too. Heck, pivots can even run very offensive sets.
 
Pivot is being used to justify the Steel type Doom Desire over the Psychic type Future Sight. No post has really addressed why this is actually better - going off the VR, both types are super effective against Crucibelle (Mega) and Kerfluffle, but of the rest of the mon that these are super effective against (Bolded for those which Doom Desire is weak against), Arghonaut, Fidgit, Tomohawk, Toxapex, Amoonguss and Mollux are more important threats to prevent and prevent encouraging stall counters.

If you look at those which Steel super effectively prevents coming in - Diancie Mega is the only notable 4* effectiveness - and what roll do they play currently? Usage puts them way down; of the ones listed above, only Amoonguss is lower in usage. Jumbao cannot be used to switch into Heatran if it has the incorrect ability - and if it has Drought (which the majority use), it actively makes it worse for itself. Tyranitar and it's Mega can switch into a steel type attack, and it's so-called power boost of +20BP is nullified by the +50% SpD increase of sand, leaving it still to be dealt with by the Physical Fighting Type move lined up in any case if you were using Future Sight. Are ice types ever really used to switch into attacks (except maybe Kyurem-B into Bulky Waters).

So... Tapu Bulu, Jumbao, and Clefable are the notable mon for Steel to prevent switching in, while Arghonaut, Toxapex and Mollux are left to switch in, and just wall away. That doesn't particularly strike me as "effective" use of the higher BP.

Looking at the rest of the stats;
- There's maybe 37 that resist Steel and can switch in to Future Sight and resist. Some of those overlap with Psychic's switch ins; Greninja, Victini, Heatran, Ditto, Scizor-M. The only real benefits of Steel offence over Psychic in regards to the switch ins is being able to chip the dark types (largely fragile in any case), and non-STAB coverage can do a number.
- Other than Dark types (which can be addressed later), these are the following pokemon that Steel hits neutrally that Psychic doesn't; Aurumoth, Alakazam, Lati@s, Tapu Lele, Magearna, Reuniclus, and Mew.

Meanwhile, the likes of any Starter Pokemon, Zapdos, Magnezone/Krilowatt, other bulky water, Volkraken, can all feel free to switch in, utterly devaluing the purpose of Steel being chosen as the higher BP Pivot base.

In regards to Dark (and pursuit, mainly) counter play - there is simply not swapping out, and being able to bait it in. Or, you know, leaving an intentional mechanic/counter to switching in and out being left as an intentional counter. Jirachi was neutral to Pursuit, and didn't run Doom Desire, but not because Pursuit was this all powerful threat. Why should that change now?
 
Last edited:

LucarioOfLegends

Saint of the Church of The Holy Pluffle
is a CAP Contributor
Just as a base definition, I would argue that a pivot is a Pokemon that is able to safely switch in and out between Pokemon on a team. It is usually done through pivoting moves like Volt Switch and U-turn, with Kerf using Parting Shot although its not too relevant. However, these pivoting moves are not at all required to have a successful pivot, as Tangrowth proves itself to be one of the meta's best although it has neither move.

Pivot is being used to justify the Steel type Doom Desire over the Psychic type Future Sight. No post has really addressed why this is actually better - going off the VR, both types are super effective against Crucibelle (Mega) and Kerfluffle, but of the rest of the mon that these are super effective against (Bolded for those which Doom Desire is weak against), Arghonaut, Fidgit, Tomohawk, Toxapex, Amoonguss and Mollux are more important threats to prevent and prevent encouraging stall counters.

If you look at those which Steel super effectively prevents coming in - Diancie Mega is the only notable 4* effectiveness - and what roll do they play currently? Usage puts them way down; of the ones listed above, only Amoonguss is lower in usage. Jumbao cannot be used to switch into Heatran if it has the incorrect ability - and if it has Drought (which the majority use), it actively makes it worse for itself. Tyranitar and it's Mega can switch into a steel type attack, and it's so-called power boost of +20BP is nullified by the +50% SpD increase of sand, leaving it still to be dealt with by the Physical Fighting Type move lined up in any case if you were using Future Sight. Are ice types ever really used to switch into attacks (except maybe Kyurem-B into Bulky Waters).

So... Tapu Bulu, Jumbao, and Clefable are the notable mon for Steel to prevent switching in, while Arghonaut, Toxapex and Mollux are left to switch in, and just wall away. That doesn't particularly strike me as "effective" use of the higher BP.

Looking at the rest of the stats;
- There's maybe 37 that resist Steel and can switch in to Future Sight and resist. Some of those overlap with Psychic's switch ins; Greninja, Victini, Heatran, Ditto, Scizor-M. The only real benefits of Steel offence over Psychic in regards to the switch ins is being able to chip the dark types (largely fragile in any case), and non-STAB coverage can do a number.
- Other than Dark types (which can be addressed later), these are the following pokemon that Steel hits neutrally that Psychic doesn't; Aurumoth, Alakazam, Lati@s, Tapu Lele, Magearna, Reuniclus, and Mew.

Meanwhile, the likes of any Starter Pokemon, Zapdos, Magnezone/Krilowatt, other bulky water, Volkraken, can all feel free to switch in, utterly devaluing the purpose of Steel being chosen as the higher BP Pivot base.

In regards to Dark (and pursuit, mainly) counter play - there is simply not swapping out, and being able to bait it in. Or, you know, leaving an intentional mechanic/counter to switching in and out being left as an intentional counter. Jirachi was neutral to Pursuit, and didn't run Doom Desire, but not because Pursuit was this all powerful threat. Why should that change now?
Actually SHSP did give a list of Pokemon that Doom Desire hits super effectively / neutrally / resisted a few pages back (don't know the specific location). However the argument that was being made for it even still having the higher amount of resists is the fact that CAP26 wants them to have to switch into Doom Desire, as so to force themselves into a particularly bad situation. Either they take a heavy amount of damage but still hold matchup advantage against whatever is in, or they switch out to absorb the hit better but force themselves into a matchup that is much worse.

Let me give an example, saying that I have CAP26 and Tapu Lele on my side, and an opposing force has Mega Crucibelle and Arghonaut on their side.

Turn 1: Cruci uses Stealth Rock; CAP26 uses Doom Desire
Turn 2: Cruci uses Stone Edge; CAP26 pivots out into Tapu Lele

Now the matcup here has two ways it can go, and lets say that I run a Specs Lele. Now Cruci can technically outspeed Lele and KO with Gunk Shot, giving a KO. However, they will also be taking Doom Desire that turn, which could also KO them due to it being a super-effective 140 BP Steel type move with possible STAB based on typing. However, to avoid being conked out by the Doom Desire, Crucibelle could switch out into the Arghonaut, but that also forces a much worse matchup vs the Tapu Lele, who could just click Psychic and make the switch pointless. I realize this isn't the best example for this, but the worse doom desire matchups should be a positive, as it allows us to work better with partners to create those bad matchups.
 

Deck Knight

Seize Your Doom
is a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I want to pull in a few separate ideas and synthesize them.

This time, my opponent was forced to decide between sacking another pokemon to Greninja or threatening me out with Arghonaut and taking the Future Sight. Either way I get my Ash-Greninja and am in a significantly better situation than before.

This is an interaction where Future Sight is super effective on the target, but there are also interactions that don't involve the target being weak to Future Sight or Doom Desire. The calcs in the spoiler below show two interactions, using Jirachi (100 Special Attack) as a baseline.

+2 252 SpA Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios-Mega: 158-186 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(the +2 shows two attacks, also note that this is without the analytic boost)
252 SpA Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios-Mega: 163-193 (54.1 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sum: 106.6 - 125.8%
+2 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 241-285 (59.8 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(+2 shows two damage over two attacks, the turn tangrowth switches in and the following turn)
252 SpA Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 138-163 (34.2 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Sum: 94 - 111.1%

Due to the raw strength of Doom Desire, Greninja and Volkraken can break certain checks if they can force them in on the Doom Desire turn. These are not the only interactions that can be done with Future Sight and Doom Desire however. In these interactions, the target is forced in by another pokemon and is pressured by Future Sight or Doom Desire. There are also interactions where the target is forced in by Future Sight or Doom Desire and gets pressured by another pokemon. This would look something like this:

Turn 1: CAP 26 clicks Future Sight/Doom Desire
Turn 2: CAP 26 switches out into Heatran
Turn 3: The opponent either switches in a steel that dies to Heatran, or switches in something else which may not be able to take an attack from both Heatran and the Future Sight/Doom Desire

At it's heart, this is the same interaction as above. However, instead of targeting a specific pokemon that Heatran forces in, it instead targets what Future Sight/Doom Desire forces in. With this in mind, I want to ask a question to everyone:
I was discussing this and other interactions with moves on Discord, specifically as it regards the overall use of these moves and other avenues to explore. Specifically I was thinking about Protect as a move to burn the lag time and respond to other pivots.

This is where reachzero 's idea of Doom Desire / Future Sight as janked hazards comes into play a little.

What makes a lot of pivots good, especially offensive pivots, is they put on a lot of offensive pressure but also have the ability to U-turn out and continue pressing the favorable offensive matchup. This is true of several pivots, most notably Volkraken and Greninja, but also Choiced Volt Switchers (sometimes Magearna). That interaction looks something like this:

Turn 1: CAP 26 selects Doom Desire/Future Sight as an opponent switches in an offensive pivot.
Turn 2: CAP 26 scouts the pivot's move with a Protect style move. DD/FS is poised to strike at the end of Turn 3.
Turn 3: You assess the situation with the opponent's selected move. If you are reasonably certain the opponent is choiced, you now have two factors working in your favor: 1) You can idealize a switch to the choiced move and have DD/FS act as a powerful hazard/chip. 2) You can attempt to counter a double switch knowing your opponents options are limited to Pokemon on their team that can stomache DD/FS. If you believe the opponent is choiced and locked into a pivoting move, you then have the upper hand of attacking based on what you believe they will switch in.

Anti-Pivoting and Vs. Pivoting Opponents:
In making CAP 26 a pivot, I believe Doom Desire / Future Sight also has the opportunity to punish an opponent's pivot, and to punish Choiced pivot strategies particularly brutally. In this conception we return to reachzero's idea of them as hazards, and fortunately Future Sight does hit some Pokemon that switch into Doom Desire quite well. Even though our primary focus is now on Doom Desire, we should not discount these scenarios.

Incidentally I agreed with the assessment of other people in the Discord chat that this interaction would not be the most popular or primary interaction on CAP26's sets. However I thought the discussion clarified a lot about how pivots work, why they work, and how these moves in particular interact with pivots.

I generally agree with Bughouse 's definition of a pivot, and I believe these moves make us a very effective anti-pivot if we give CAP 26 the right tools. What we're looking for is a solid Pokemon that can switch in often, lures in especially choice attackers to take advantage of this pressure interaction, and has the other tools necessary to alter interactions. One thing the users of Future Sight we were talking about before SHSP's latest post never had was access to some of those shuffling tools that could have maximized the utility of Future Sight. In fact one of the most notable thing about NU Slowking is it does have the pivot / anti-pivot toolkit and it uses it. CAP26 should be able to do this as well.
 
Last edited:

SHSP

is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
snake_rattler expressed exactly my question very well. "Pivot" seems to mean different things to different people in different contexts, can you (SHSP) be a little more precise in terms of what you mean?

This is important because I read it as basically throwing out the possibility of offensive builds, and even more so because many people will read "pivot" as a mandate for one specific powerful ability, which I'd rather not see sweep the Ability Stage unchallenged.
I apologize for not clarifying further in the original post, and for the delayed response here. Pivot is supposed to be a little more vague than specific as not to pin us down into a specific set of stats, ability, etc as we go on- we're still early in this process, and the role is supposed to be more of a loose guide than a strict one. I'd define it as a Pokemon that is able to switch in and out consistently within a battle, similarly to what Bughouse described. Pivots can be offensive or defensive with use of different tools and methods, and I encourage everyone to have an open mind about what can fit this mold.
 

GMars

It's ya boy GEEEEEEEEMARS
is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
There’s been good discussion and good results from this assessment thread and from Discord. As this thread looks to close soon and I ready up to lead typing, I’d like to add my thoughts on what we should keep in mind going forward. As reach brought up, Doom Desire has a surprising amount in common with entry hazards in how they delay momentum. You give up momentum on one turn to make your later turns more successful by applying pressure on the opponent’s team. Keeping this in mind, I want to look at Ash-Greninja, being an excellent user of Spikes in OU, even on Choice-locked sets. Rather than doing chip damage to Regenning or healing counters, it takes advantage of its switch-ins to set up Spikes, and its team often isn’t strained by this choice. Ash-Greninja is an extremely splashable Pokemon in that meta. While this is due to a number of convoluted factors, one aspect of its success as a Spikes setter is clear - its switch-ins are often easy to switch into in return for a majority of Ash-Gren’s teammates. For example, think Toxapex or Tangrowth. There are exceptions to this of course, such as Bulu, but having passive answers allows Gren to use a momentum-delaying move without losing much in return.

We should gear CAP26’s switch-ins to be primarily passive. This will enable CAP26 to use Doom Desire without much initial cost, easing its switch-outs and reducing the strain of building a team with CAP26 by mitigating the amount of support it would require to use effectively.
 

Gross Sweep

Turtle
is a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
RMT Leader
I'm glad the decision was made to focus on Doom Desire, which will hopefully allow us a good typing that can help push this project forward. That said before I get into the meat of this post I agree 100% with Gmars. While I don't think it's going to be a necessity that CAP 26 only forces in more passive walls, it is helpful as it makes switching into other breakers easier. As any strategy that requires some switching appreciates not having to take huge hits on the switch every turn. I wanted to help with a visualization for this project, so I scripted a little replay that can hopefully help demonstrate what this strategy could look like in a more real scenario. I staged the game for 1 KO to take place, in a game with 3v3 for simplicity sake. One team utilizes Silvally-Steel (the CAP 26 fill in), Arghonaut (A+ on the VR), and Caribolt (A-). The other team utilizes Mega Alakazam (A-), Arghonaut (A+), and Jumbao (A-). So all the mons used are high on the VR, and are actually likely to be seen on common teams. I'll link the replay itself, and also break the quick match down turn by turn.

Also a little disclaimer: This post does assume that CAP 26 is a Steel type, but that's only since I have to give it a type for the simulator, so I just picked the type that matches our signature move.


The game starts off with Alakazam Vs. Arghonaut. While this is t1, it doesn't have to be for this strategy to work, the more integral part that needs attention is the psychic type in a position to hit a super effective move vs the opposing Arghonaut. Forcing the Arghonaut out, setting up the chain of events. It's important to notice how the CAP 26 user is in a more negative position at the start of our battle, as they're essentially forced to switch out.

Turn 1

Arghonaut, come back!
Go! Silvally (Silvally-Steel)!

The opposing Alakazam's Alakazite is reacting to the Key Stone!
The opposing Alakazam has Mega Evolved into Mega Alakazam!

The opposing Alakazam used Psychic!
It's not very effective...
(Silvally lost 25.4% of its health!)

In this turn the Alakazam attacks what's in front of it, hoping to pick up some damage. Seeing the disadvantage our Cap 26, played by Silvally-Steel, comes in and sponges the attack. Silvally has a 95 stat line across the board, and is a pure steel type, so I figured it was a pretty basic fill in choice with nothing that really sways users in any direction in terms of stats or typing. That said for this simulation we're going to go with the idea that Silvally is a good switch in to the mon we're checking (Alakazam), so M-Zam will need to switch out or risk losing the 1v1 as it can't easily break CAP 26. (We don't have to end up being a solid switch in to M-Zam, just needed something for examples sake).

Turn 2

not gross sweep withdrew Alakazam!
not gross sweep sent out Arghonaut!

Silvally used Doom Desire!
Silvally chose Doom Desire as its destiny!

The M-Zam switches out and Arghonaut, a steel resist, comes in. Pretty natural choice as it resists steel (and the Silvally-Steel is ony using Doom Desire). However, the Cap 26 user sees the switch coming and takes the relatively free turn to throw off a Doom Desire setting the stage for later.

Turn 3

Silvally, come back!
Go! Caribolt!

The opposing Arghonaut used Spikes!
Spikes were scattered on the ground all around your team!

The Cap 26 user sees the wall that was just sent out in front of them, and decides to switch out into a breaker that pressures the wall in front of them. Arghonaut isn't exactly an offensive dynamo, so this is a fairly low risk switch. CAP 26 could potentially have options that help ease the switching process further against passive and non passive switch ins, but for now we're using the single attack substitute with basically no competitive ability. Also the Arghonaut seeing a relatively free turn decides to throw up Spikes helping for later, since hazards are always nice.

Turn 4

not gross sweep withdrew Arghonaut!
not gross sweep sent out Jumbao!
[The opposing Jumbao's Trace]
[The opposing Jumbao's Galvanize]
The opposing Jumbao traced Caribolt's Galvanize!

Caribolt used Return!
It's not very effective...
(The opposing Jumbao lost 26.5% of its health!)

The opposing Jumbao took the Doom Desire attack!
It's super effective!
(The opposing Jumbao lost 73.5% of its health!)

The opposing Jumbao fainted!
not gross sweep forfeited.

This is the pivotal turn that will define the success of our project. If we can't force turns like this, our CAP could very well fail, which is something that has been discussed lately as a possibility. By turns like this I mean the lose-lose scenario for the opposing team everyone is talking about. The Arghonaut user in this scenario is forced to either sack their Arghonaut to the combination of the attack from Caribolt + Doom Desire, or switch out to their Jumbao that resists both of Caribolt's stabs and still end up sacking it to the combination of Return + Doom Desire.

Obviously this win-win situation won't always occur for CAP 26 + Caribolt as a mon like Ferrothorn shuts down this combo. However, a team is more than 3 mons, so you would pair CAP 26 with multiple breakers that pressure common Doom Desire resists. Like I've said this isn't a perfect representation of what an actual game scenario would look like, but I hope this at least helps people start to visualize what this move working correctly looks like.
 

snake_rattler

Bold to assume that I won't have the last laugh...
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
What tools work best with delayed attack moves?

This question brewed from a combination of MX's post above that detailed the "standard plan" for a delayed move's three turns, and some conversation on Discord where momentum was brought up as something the delayed moves are very good at. These moves can change the play pattern of your opponent- forcing a switch, preventing something else from switching in, and overall giving you turns to work with that are much safer or more free by limiting your opponents options. What can we do with that momentum- and how can these added tools incentivize the moves without overshadowing them?
Before the thread closes, I wanted to note a couple of move-move interactions between Doom Desire and other groups of moves that CAP26 could run. Though the moveset stage are far off, I want to make these points now, rather than later in the process, so that we go through typing, ability, and stats with the right mindset. Now, here are two groups that I like:

Phazing: Depending on the typing chosen, this can be a very interesting way to pull off Doom Desire. Say that CAP26 is able to stay in against the opposing Pokemon until Doom Desire is about to hit. The opponent switches out their Fairy- or Ground-type Pokemon into a resistant one and then, bam, CAP26 phazes back in the Fairy- or Ground-type. As the battle goes on, there's a greater and greater chance that Doom Desire can hit the opponent's Fairy- or Ground-type that they didn't want taking the Doom Desire. Since this option is a little inconsistent, phazing could realistically be a surprising tech that catches opponents off guard. I think that phazing moves have good interactions with Doom Desire.

Hazard Removal: The most common Stealth Rock setters in the current CAP metagame are: Heatran, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Mega Crucibelle, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Diancie, and Ferrothorn. Mega Crucibelle, Mega Tyranitar, and Mega Diancie all take super effective damage from Doom Desire, and Landorus-T and Garchomp don't appreciate taking strong neutral hits from special attackers. As such, CAP26 can be an effective hazard remover, as Doom Desire can pressure 5 of the 7 common Stealth Rock setters from not coming back in immediately to set up Stealth Rock again. Therefore, hazard removing moves have great synergy with Doom Desire as well.

There's one that I find undesirable though:

Pivoting Moves: While this might sound counterintuitive given that we're suppose to be a pivot, I want to appeal to what this concept is about. This concept is about utilizing Doom Desire to the fullest. Doom Desire is a momentum-based move: you set up those lose/lose situations that GMars and Gross Sweep outlined in their posts above in order to swing momentum into your favor. Thus, I don't really see the point in adding on the most boring and easy-to-use pivoting move alongside Doom Desire. CAP26 should be using Doom Desire, the move that the concept is literally about, to swing momentum, not a generic pivoting move. Realistically though, the inclusion would just be an insult to the playerbase's intelligence: we can use Doom Desire effectively without having to crutch on the pivoting moves.

Furthermore, having a pivoting move is simply counterintuitive from a movepool stance. CAP26, for better or worse, will have a strapped movepool, without even considering pivoting moves. A pivoting move, though, competes directly for a moveslot with Doom Desire because the pivoting moves are just generally more effective at maintaining momentum than Doom Desire. This is especially true if CAP26 has good defensive utility, and, by SHSP's post, we're a pivot, so we're extremely likely to have good defensive utility. Meaning, if you want to force CAP26 to run Doom Desire + pivot move, we will have to strap down CAP26's movepool even more than it already needs to be. If we, following GMars's post, want generally passive Pokemon to switch into CAP26, we need a relatively diverse movepool. With the pivoting move, I'm more skeptical that we can have a movepool diverse enough to not be completely one-dimensional. Of course, it's a long road to the moveset stage, but I think we need to have the mindset in this project that these moves are not helpful to the concept and are rather a distraction.
 

SHSP

is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
And with that, Concept Assessment is a wrap! We've managed to pin down a lot of what we're aiming for, and identify a lot of things to keep in mind. We want to ensure a balance in the power we give CAP 26 where we incentivize Doom Desire without overshadowing it, help wallbreakers as a psuedo-hazard, and support switching and a team centric focus with our role as a pivot. I would like to wrap this up with a suggestion- if you haven't already, find time to play around with Future Sight mons, just to help with understanding the moves and what works with them.

Our next step is Typing, lead by (ya boy) Gmars!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top