CAP 26 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment

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Quanyails

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Congratulations on Dogfish44's concept "The Future is Bright" on being selected! SHSP will now lead concept assessment, in which we decide which direction we take the process. Subsequent posts should closely follow SHSP's topics and questions.

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Name - The Future is Bright!

Description - A Pokemon that makes usage of the 'delayed-attack' moves - Future Sight and/or Doom Desire

Justification - Given we're attempting to create a Pokemon that uses one of two specific moves, this is an Actualisation concept. Future Sight and Doom Desire are incredibly unique moves, which see limited usage in spite of their high base power, and ability to have a target Pokemon struck twice in the same turn. In using CAP26, the aim is to create a Pokemon that inspires a feeling of being able to trap opponents, to establish win-win situations.

Questions To Be Answered -
  • One Pokemon which has been seen to fairly reliably use Future Sight is Slowking. What can we learn from Slowking about what makes a viable user of Future Sight? On the same token, what has led Jirachi to not be effective at using Doom Desire, and other Pokemon to not effectively use Future Sight?
  • What is the optimum usage of Future Sight/Doom Desire, both on the turn immediately after using the move, and the turn on which the move will land?
  • Should the user of Future Sight/Doom Desire be primarily helping itself, or other teammates. If helping itself, what is the aim? If helping teammates, then what types of teammate?
  • Are Z-Future Sight and Z-Doom Desire mandatory, or just useful tools?
Guidelines:
1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.​
2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if a particular argument is poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.​
 

SHSP

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Alright, CAP, we’ve got a concept. Future Sight and Doom Desire are, for lack of a better term, odd moves that give us a lot of options in how we attack this concept. The first question that I have in mind to ask hits at the heart of this concept: Which of the two moves are we going to focus on?

Now, I don’t mean this in a strictly metagame sense- as in, which would be better for the end product. The core of this is asking which move is better for our process. Does one of Future Sight or Doom Desire give us more to explore and discuss than the other? Is it possible that both can be used and focused on instead of one? What advantages and limitations do either move offer to us? This is going to be a crucial step for the process, so it’s imperative that we discuss this fully and make a well informed decision.
 

quziel

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Note: I've not made any CAP posts before, so sorry if I'm violating etiquette.

I'm a NU player generally, and NU has more than the average number of Future Sight users, and there's a few archetypes there that could prove relevant to the current CAP design process. I'll be covering 3(.5) sets here that all use Future Sight, and explaining why and how the pokemon use Future Sight.



Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Scald
- Fire Blast
- Future Sight
- Dragon Tail


This set uses Regenerator + Solid Bulk in order to come in repeatedly, letting it frequently use Future Sight. In terms of what Future Sight gives it, it lets Slowking support its team by forcing "checkmate" situations (ex. if your opponent's fighting resist is a Garbodor, you can future sight, go into passimian, and click close combat, knowing they cannot afford to bring in Garbodor against Close Combat with Future Sight hitting). A secondary use is the combination of Future Sight and Dragon Tail, which lets Slowking essentially fish for a Psychic weak pokemon by using Future Sight, waiting a turn, and then using Dragon Tail to force the opponent out, and potentially catch a Psychic weak pokemon (ex. Dragon Tail out a Vileplume on Future Sight and remove it).


Slowbro @ Psychium Z
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Future Sight
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off


This set takes a different approach to Future Sight use from Assault Vest Slowking, but, thanks to Regenerator, and Slowbro's great bulk, it still maintains easy pivoting utility, and the ability to force a "checkmate" situation. In the early game of a match, it is often used as a pivot, coming into resisted attacks, and using Future Sight to support its team, however this set truly comes into its own when setting up. By using Future Sight and Calm Mind, it can often surprise an opponent with an unexpectedly strong Future Sight by using Future Sight and then Calm mind, or alternatively, by using Z-Future Sight to OHKO what would be a check, such as Vaporeon. Additionally, it can use Future Sight + Z-Future Sight to do incredibly heavy damage in one turn. Its worth noting that Slowking has a very similar, if more offensive variation of this set by using Nasty Plot over Calm Mind.


Slowbro @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Future Sight
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot


This is very similar to Assault Vest Slowking, merely lacking the potential utility of Dragon Tail. Moreso than Slowking, this represents an approach of coming in as many times as possible thanks to great mixed bulk, and then pivoting out, and trying to force checkmate situations with Future Sight. Additionally, its worth noting that Scald is a large part of why this pokemon can use Future Sight as effectively as it can, as NU's main Dark Type, Incineroar, is notably weak to Scald, which lets Slowbro clear the way for a successful Future Sight use.

These pokemon all represent one possible approach, a Pivot that uses Future Sight to support its team, but have subtly different styles. Assault Vest Slowking uses Dragon Tail in order to fish for a priority target, Calm Mind Psych-Z Slowbro uses Future Sight in order to unexpectedly break through checks, and Assault Vest Slowbro represents a pivot that can come in a huge number of times a game, and supports its team by using Future Sight as many times a game as it can.

Edit:

For what its worth, I am biased towards Doom Desire, as I feel that Future Sight has a really limited design space, thanks to how it could interact with Tapu Lele.
 
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One of the most interesting things about this concept is that both steel and psychic have a few critical flaws as attacking types (in this context, anyway; you see FS coming, you bring out a dark type) - the high BST of the moves does some to tackle this, but not necessarily everything; because of this, it's going to be necessary to encourage use of the moves via stab, abilities, high sp. atk and few other offensive options, or in other ways. Because of these limitations, and the limited utility of either type as coverage (on top of the difficulty of even using a delayed attack as coverage) I'd argue we need to select just one; it's only ever going to use the better one anyway.

Another issue is; why wouldn't the pokemon just use better moves? Psychic has, well, psychic after all. Steel, however, has few good special attacking options; the difference in power between Psychic and Future Sight is 30; the difference between Flash Cannon and Doom Desire is 60. And due to Steel's failings as a specially attacking type, Magearna doesn't even run flash cannon!

I'd argue that Steel's poor move options for special attacking gives us the opportunity to both make a very unique pokemon (special attacking with steel) as well as to essentially garuntee that Doom Desire is a good option; it's the best a steel special attacker is going to do.

However, I'd also argue that perhaps we shouldn't even solidly pick one of the two moves until typing discussion; stab seems to be an important way to incentivize the use of FS and DD - the only Future Sight users I'm aware of are psychic type, such as NU Slowbro, and the only Doom Desire user I'm aware of at all (thanks to Birkal) is BH Dialga, a steel type.

I'm of the opinion that we definitely cannot build the pokemon for both; but also that it would be wise to hold off on picking one or the other until typing discussion, because the selection has huge ramifications on type options and competitive role.
 
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While we could and most certainly may have a movepool that ends up with both, Doom Desire is generally a better move than Future Sight and is probably the one we should focus on. Doom Desire has a slightly higher base power and with it being a Steel-type move it isn't absorbed by another typing like Psychic is and it hits the prominent fairy-typing for Super effective damage. While you could argue that the fact that Dark-types are immune to FS could be used to force the opponent into switching a Dark-type and punishing that, I doubt there's enough in the meta to justify using it for that purpose. Doom Desire, to me, seems like the better move overall and the one to focus on.
 

Jho

Sobble Squad
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It's an interesting choice to start us off this process but a pretty important one, so in order to start I think we should look at the pros and cons of each of these moves over the other...

Future Sight:
Psychic is arguably the best offensive typing in the meta currently, with no common Psychic resists having reliable recovery (Save for Mega Zam), and powerful wallbreakers in Lele and Zam being able to take advantage of sharing checks and wearing down steel types would make Future Sight fit incredibly well into the current meta.

However; Future Sight being a Psychic-type move means it can be easier to absorb due to Dark being immune to it. This could be particularly important as we are looking to create win-win situations, as per the concept, which means if we do focus on Future Sight we lock ourselves into finding a way to punish Dark Types which would look to come in with coverage options and such. Whilst this might not seem like an inherently bad thing, I think this may end up pushing Future Sight out in favour of 26 being a Pure Wallbreaker due to that combination being pretty deadly (Zam, Lele, Moth etc). My worry for a mon which utilises Future Sight to make favourable situations is this; how can we prevent it from being a good Wallbreaker sans Future Sight and it forgoing it all together?

Doom Desire:

This to me is the much more interesting option, as Steel itself is a pretty poor Offensive typing currently but it lacks the aforementioned immunity that comes with the Psychic-type Future Sight. It is also a little bit stronger than the other option, making it even more rewarding to land after the prep turns. I think we also stand to learn a lot more from Doom Desire as no Pokemon in a standard metagame has ever used it effectively. One downside which may detract from Doom Desire is the necessity for Steel-type coverage to pressure Tapu Lele and other threatening Fairy-types, which Doom Desire does not do due to the "charge-up" turns.

Personally, I think Doom Desire offers a more open and creative CAP26 and lets us work towards these "Win-Win scenarios" mentioned in the concept much more and in more varied ways.
 
As Doom Desire has been permitted by our lord and savior Birkal (caw), I believe the choice is clear. Doom Desire should be focused on. Firstly, I believe it will be easier to make Doom Desire desirable against Flash Cannon compared to Future Sight against Psychic. Doom Desire has 140 power versus Flash Cannon’s 80, while Future Sight has 120 compared to Psychic’s 90. As we likely will need to have either Steel or Psychic typing (more on that in a moment), running Future Sight as coverage while lacking Doom Desire seems rather unlikely.

Another reason as to why Doom Desire should take priority is because of typing. Psychic, as it is, is an extremely strong offensive typing. Between Aurumoth, Tapu Lele and Mega Alakazam, going for Future Sight already puts CAP26 in the line of fire for being outclassed the instant it is released. Steel, on the other hand, has only a single viable special attacker in Magearna, which doesn’t even run Flash Cannon. Therefore, I believe Doom Desire will give us more room in the process to explore how to use delayed attacks without the worry of being majorly outclassed.

Furthermore, due to the nature of delayed attacks and the idea of switching out into teammates that can beat checks to delayed attacks, I believe it is ideal for us to not be weak to Pursuit trapping. Regardless on your stance on CAP26’s role, going for Future Sight means we either give up STAB or give up most type combination ideas in order to successfully use Future Sight, only leaving dual combos that are neutral to Dark. Furthermore, I do not believe that we as a community should be forced between giving up STAB Future Sight and a very limited type discussion.

As to the question about using both moves, I am of the opinion that while we should not focus on both moves at once, we should still leave the door open for Future Sight as coverage, assuming Doom Desire is picked of course. While I am not advocating for us to have Future Sight as coverage, I believe it would be unfair to close the door on it as an option down the line. We should by no means focus on Future Sight before movepools, however.

In conclusion, I believe Doom Desire is the best choice to focus on, as there is a lot of an easier task to discourage traditional STAB moves, a lot more breathing room to explore types without being outclassed by other Pokémon, and more room to explore different playstyles without restricting type discussion. At the same time, however, we should not count Future Sight as a coverage option down the line.
 

snake_rattler

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Alright, CAP, we’ve got a concept. Future Sight and Doom Desire are, for lack of a better term, odd moves that give us a lot of options in how we attack this concept. The first question that I have in mind to ask hits at the heart of this concept: Which of the two moves are we going to focus on?

Now, I don’t mean this in a strictly metagame sense- as in, which would be better for the end product. The core of this is asking which move is better for our process. Does one of Future Sight or Doom Desire give us more to explore and discuss than the other? Is it possible that both can be used and focused on instead of one? What advantages and limitations do either move offer to us? This is going to be a crucial step for the process, so it’s imperative that we discuss this fully and make a well informed decision.
To provide a bit of metagame context to this, I think Doom Desire is much more, well, desirable than Future Sight. The plethora of powerful Psychic-types will make it tough to balance a Future Sight CAP26. On one hand, it has to compete for a teamslot with Tapu Lele (a slower wallbreaker), Mega Alakazam (a fast but frail sweeper), Aurumoth (a powerful setup Pokemon), Mega Medicham (blows up Chansey and most Steel-types), and Mega Latios, which is a great tank. For a Future Sight Pokemon to compete in this kind of environment, it's going to have to be really strong or at least differentiate it somehow. And, if it does that, we risk it pairing with any one of the aforementioned Psychic-types. This would lead to a very unbalanced metagame. Now, process doesn't necessarily care about the metagame, but I think process will flow much better if we're not worried about carefully balancing options to make a Future Sight CAP26 have a niche, while also not overpowering in Psychic-Spam cores.

Futhermore, Doom Desire is just much more interesting in general than Future Sight. While it is an exclusive move, Jirachi hasn't and never will actualize it. Basically, there are 0 users of this move. As a project that explores competitive Pokemon, not picking Doom Desire would be a complete missed opportunity! Special attacking Steel-types that actually use their Steel-type STAB are few and far between. Yes, we have Magnezone, Magearna, and Naviathan. But, face it, Magnezone would be nowhere near OU without Magnet Pull, Magearna rarely uses Flash Cannon (its Assault Vest set runs Iron Head), and Calm Mind Naviathan doesn't run Flash Cannon. With Doom Desire, we'll make a unique Pokemon, even just factoring the huge increase in base power from Flash Cannon to Doom Desire. With a Future Sight CAP26, as many have pointed out, it'll be incredibly difficult to incentivize using Future Sight when its Base Power increase from Psychic is a mere 30 points. Doom Desire jumps up 60 points, which is much, much more effective.

With these thoughts in mind, I think we can have a more interesting process that's not as worried about metagame balance with a Doom Desire CAP than with a Future Sight CAP. I'm really excited about this process, let's make it a great one!
 
A lot of the things that crossed my mind when discussing the idea between Doom Desire and Future Sight have already been voiced (competing for Psychic STAB, Dark Immunity, Psychic as a strong attacking type in general), so I'm glad to not have any obtuse ideas with this concept. As snake_rattler has said in his most recent post, outside of Jirachi, who never runs this move to begin with, there's not a single user of this move, which gives us a lot of creativity and wiggle room. Compare that to Future Sight, which was shown to have wide usage through many other tiers (NU, RU, etc.). Obviously we're not those tiers and CAP doesn't have any Future Sight users currently in the meta, but I still feel like Doom Desire is just a lot more fun for the sake of uniqueness.

One thing I think should also be considered is the ramifications of the Z-Moves for Future Sight and Doom Desire. One of the things I actually noticed when comparing the Base Powers for both of these moves is that while Future Sight has a base power of 120 and Doom Desire has a base power of 140, their Z-Move powers are a little off-kilter. What I mean is that Z-Future sight is base 190 while Z-Doom Desire is base 200, which proportionally would make Future Sight the "better Z-move" (when you consider ratio of Z base Power to regular base power, Z-Future sight is 190/120 = 1.583, compared to Z-Doom Desire being 200/140 = 1.429, yeah math). While I'm not exactly sure what this would ultimately imply for our mon and the meta as a whole, I would think it's worth considering CAP26 potentially being a user of one of these moves, and what we want to see come of that as well. Obviously using a Z-Move with these moves isn't exactly what the concept entails, but it's something that, in my opinion, also needs consideration.

My main point that hasn't already been brought up is basically this. Unless CAP26 somehow can't hold items Z-moves are going to have to be a relevant discussion when making our many decisions down the line.

As for my stance, I'm obviously erring towards Doom Desire, though I could easily be swayed if I saw a really good argument one way or the other.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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I think the clear answer, any optics aside, has to be Doom Desire for the simple reason that Doom Desire is so much stronger than Flash Cannon, while Future Sight is comparably less so (and weaker overall too) than Psychic. Also, there simply aren't many specially attacking steel types, so there will be more leeway to make the CAP as desired without feeling like we're simply outclassing something that already exists etc. And many of their sets don't even use their steel type attacks anyway, as snake_rattler pointed out.

In addition, Future Sight's use is already understood pretty well from the NU pivots quziel explained above.

I must admit I am somewhat concerned by opening the floodgates to using a signature from a non-cover legendary that's still a signature move 4 generations later... what's to keep CAP from using Steam Eruption, Thousand Arrows, or Seed Flare, etc. in the future? I can only hope that these moves would be frowned upon if they were discussed for the first time in the movepool stage, vs being the core to the concept.
 
I would prefer we focus on Doom Desire. While both moves have their pros and cons, I think as Future Sight is usable on a variety of mons, whereas Doom Desire is only usable on Jirachi, exploring Doom Desire would allow us to more deeply investigate the concept. It's also more interesting, because it is not negated by any type, which means it will be easier to make it work. I believe the move has merit, but because it is only available of Jirachi, whose moveset is too deep to even consider running DD, it would be the more interesting and workable option. The animation is also cooler.
 
Hey y’all. I have a few quick retorts.
I must admit I am somewhat concerned by opening the floodgates to using a signature from a non-cover legendary that's still a signature move 4 generations later... what's to keep CAP from using Steam Eruption, Thousand Arrows, or Seed Flare, etc. in the future? I can only hope that these moves would be frowned upon if they were discussed for the first time in the movepool stage, vs being the core to the concept.
I understand the worry. However, our lord and savior Birkal (caw) has allowed Doom Desire. Also, I am certain no other legendary moves will slip by in movepools or movesets.
163272

Z-moves are going to have to be a relevant discussion when making our many decisions down the line.
On the topic of Z-Moves, while they certainly are powerful, they shouldn’t affect our decision as to which move we select. I don’t even think that Z-Doom Desire will be completely required on CAP26, but that will likely depend on our type and coverage.
how can we prevent it from being a good Wallbreaker sans Future Sight and it forgoing it all together?
The only two ways I see are nuking movepool or nuking stats. Either way, I do not see a good end to that strategy. I will say that most people are considering CAP26 less as a wallbreaker and more of a pivot, but that’s besides the point.
 

Jordy

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Like many others have said, I think that building around Doom Desire would make for a much more interesting process. Not only does Doom Desire open up a lot more paths that we can take, despite having a much worse offensive typing, Future Sight is also rather explored already, as you can see in quziel's post, whereas there's only one viable Doom Desire user, which is Dialga in BH. To add onto that, it's rather hard to give an incentive to run Future Sight instead of Psychic if we don't make exactly what Slowking already is.

Not only do I think that Doom Desire would make for a much more interesting process, CAP already has a plethora of strong Psychic-types, like Mega Alakazam, Tapu Lele, and Mega Medicham, which CAP 26 will have to directly compete with. All the aforementioned Psychic-types follow a common formula, which is being a Psychic-type + having access to Fighting-type coverage/STAB, which is pretty much mandatory at this point in time to have a chance at pressuring Dark- and more importantly, Steel-types, and I think it'll be really hard for CAP 26 to differentiate from this common formula because of this if it is going to be built around Future Sight.

Also, like snake_rattler pointed out, there's a rather small amount of specially offensive Steel-types, which I think we can explore the role of a specially offensive Steel-type if we do pick Doom Desire.

Because of what I listed above, I believe Doom Desire will make a for a much more interesting than Future Sight and therefore favor it.
 

Deck Knight

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For many of the reasons stated already, I think Doom Desire would be the best path to pursue as a primary path. Z-Moves prevent the consideration of these moves as mutually exclusive focuses, however Concept Assessment may not be the best thread to flesh that out.

What I think Doom Desire has primarily over Future Sight is that nothing is immune to it, and it's higher Base Power means that it is essentially dumping an unblockable Draco Meteor (slightly stronger, actually) level attack 2 turns after its usage. While this doesn't require a role explicitly, a Pokemon that can forestall opponents or pivot is much more likely to succeed in using Doom Desire. Jirachi seems not to use it in part because Serene Grace leads it to prefer different kinds of shenanigans and its stats are not really ideal for the purpose, as it's not strong enough either offensively to grab a huge hit or defensively to work around with the mechanics of these moves.
 
I don't think that choosing to focus on either Doom Desire or Future Sight so early is a good idea, because it would be too restrictive on the typing stage. Future Sight is not that bad on this regard, as Psychic has decent coverage against some important metagame threats like Mega Crucibelle, Arghonaut, and Toxapex, but Doom Desire would be bad news, as Steel is a mediocre offensive typing and would therefore favor a Steel typing to an unhealthy degree during the typing stage. I can't really see the urgency to pick the exact move now either. While the moves themselves present some significant differences, they are still very similar and CAP 26 can be easily based around either of them, and while I see the merits on favoring Doom Desire, especially from a metagame perspective, I'd rather have that discussion during the typing stage.

I think that because of the nature of Doom Desire/Future Sight, it is vital for the concept that we carefully analyze how exactly a game plays out when you use them. This interaction last for 3 entire turns, and is very important that we understand each one of them.

Turn 1 (CAP 26 uses Doom Desire/Future Sight): Normally this should be done while an opposing Pokemon with a bad match-up against CAP 26 switches out. At this point, I think that the opponent should try to get in its best answers to CAP 26, which will probably have to resist the delayed move, as a Z-Nuke should also be accounted for. However, its also important to see that during this turn, CAP 26 becomes very vulnerable, because if the opponent takes a risk, it can get a free hit against it either with powerful and potentially deadly coverage or just trying to hit you with a resisted move to wear CAP 26 down for later. This risk that inherently comes with using delayed hit moves will most definitely be a huge factor that we must take into consideration for the whole project, and we should try to either mitigate it with defensively oriented typing, ability, and stats or fully embrace it and instead focus on making the payoff for successfully executing this strategy worth the risk.

Turn 2 (CAP 26 probably switches out): At this point, the opponent will likely have brought up a suitable answer, so CAP 26 should be switching out most of the time. This should mean that by during the last turn, the team using CAP 26 should have the upper hand more or less by default. Because this switch would be pretty predictable, the opponent can try to take advantage of it by using Pursuit to guarantee a hit against CAP 26, or using U-turn/Volt Switch to gain momentum against the incoming threat.

Turn 3 (The delayed hit lands): At this point CAP 26 should have ideally have gotten out of the field already, with one of its teammates on its place. This teammate should always try to attack, as this maximizes the damage and allows to fully take advantage of the delayed hit. The result of this combined attack will vary greatly, because at this point more or less any Pokemon could be out. However, under ideal circumstances, the combined force could have a devastating effect and might even force the opponent to sack a Pokemon. Is also important to note that in order for this strategy to be effective, the CAP 26 user should have the upper hand during this turn.

Of course, this is just a roughly approximation on how CAP 26 "should" work and there are innumerable variants that are not accounted for, like CAP 26 possibly staying on Turn 2 to counterattack with a coverage move or the opponent making more aggressive switches to avoid getting into a inescapable situation on Turn 3, but I still think that is important we can visualize how these moves work so we get a better grasp of their strengths and weaknesses.

Finally, I think that we need to look for what makes current Doom Desire/Future Sight users effective, to gain a better understanding of what we need. The ones mentioned here: Slowking, Slowbro, and BH Dialga all nave great bulky stats which allows them to take a hit when necessary, with the first two also having access to Regenerator to regain some health when they switch out. Jirachi is also worth a look too, as it is currently the only Pokemon that legally learns Doom Desire and possesses a good defensive typing and stats, but despite this positives it fails to use the move effectively, probably because it simply has much better options.
 
Okay, I’m going to be a little contrarian here and say that Future Sight should be used rather than Doom Desire. I think that overall Future Sight would be more interesting to the process. Because there are a lot of arguments I’m going to try to address, I’m just warning that this will probably be a long post. Let's start with a handful of arguments:

1. Future Sight and Psychic vs. Doom Desire and Flash Cannon. The argument here is that there would be no reason to use Future Sight because Psychic is better. While Doom Desire is 60 BP above Flash Cannon, one might notice that none of Jirachi's special sets in the Smogon dex right now (which are only the Sub CM and Z-Happy Hour sets) use Doom Desire or Flash Cannon, because even the BP difference doesn't make running special Steel STAB desirable for Jirachi. Why? Because there is not incentive to run Doom Desire over Iron Head or even just forgoing Steel STAB. This is why arguments like "Doom Desire faces less competition in a movepool" invalid in my opinion; even if we make a CAP with Doom Desire, it still might just run Flash Cannon, or forgo steel STAB. This is why part of the CAP process should be exploring what makes Future Sight worthwhile over Psychic, or vice versa. If we focus on trying to take advantage of two-turn moves, rather than just choosing a move with higher base power, then we push ourselves more in the CAP process, and can actualize the concept more. (This line of thinking doesn't inherently favor Doom Desire or Future Sight, but I will explain more why I think FS is superior later.)

2. Future Sight is both inherently better... and worse. So in this thread, I've seen two very conflicting arguments that both seem to target Future Sight. Posts like this:
And, if it does that, we risk it pairing with any one of the aforementioned Psychic-types. This would lead to a very unbalanced metagame. Now, process doesn't necessarily care about the metagame, but I think process will flow much better if we're not worried about carefully balancing options to make a Future Sight CAP26 have a niche, while also not overpowering in Psychic-Spam cores.
seem to indicate that Future Sight is better than Doom Desire, to the point of being broken, while posts like this:
What I think Doom Desire has primarily over Future Sight is that nothing is immune to it, and it's higher Base Power means that it is essentially dumping an unblockable Draco Meteor (slightly stronger, actually) level attack 2 turns after its usage.
seem to indicate that Future Sight worse. So let's break it down.
Psychic is a stronger offensive type--it hits Poison and Fighting super-effectively, and is resisted by Psychic, Steel, and Dark is immune. Steel, on the other hand, hits Fairy, Ice, and Rock super-effectively, while being resisted by Fire, Electric, Water, and Steel. Although you could argue, and rightfully so, that Steel's lack of an immunity makes it harder to switch into and better as a delayed attack, I'd argue that Psychic's immunity is actually a benefit for it. For example, say a Future Sight user is against a team that only has a Poison, Ghost, and Dark-type left. The player with the Dark-type is put into a difficult situation where they can switch into the Future Sight with their Dark-type and take no damage, or switch in their Ghost-type to get neutral damage but hopefully switch into a predicted coverage move such as a Focus Blast. This kind of mindgame is healthy for the metagame as it increases the complexity of play on both players. You could do a similar situation with a Steel-type, but the risk vs. reward is lessened due to every pokemon taking at least some damage from the move. I think that Future Sight is better offensively without being broken, as, even with Psychic Terrain, Future Sight still has all the same drawbacks it would normally have with a delayed attack. If we do think CAP 26 would become broken, we can always exclude movepool options like Focus Blast or Moonblast that would prevent it from hitting Dark types effectively. (This also comes with the fact that you really have only three turns--two if you take a turn to switch Lele out--of Psychic Terrain because FS hits two turns later). I might provide some calcs later.

3. Future Sight has already been explored. As far as I can tell, Future Sight really only has two viable users in any current metagame right now (Slowking and Slowbro, as quziel mentioned), while Doom Desire has three (Dialga in BH, and Magearna and Heatran in STABmons. While there are not any STABmons analyses as of right now, you can find both on the Sets Compendium .) However, I think that the number of users isn't as relevant here as the way each Pokemon is doing it. Each of these Pokemon are slow, bulky special attackers and many can force switches via Roar or Dragon Tail, or in Magearna's case, force their own switch. So none of these moves really have been explored to their full potential, which is why "Future Sight has already been explored" is a pretty bad argument.

4. Future Sight would compete too much with original users. This is another case of an argument that seems to contradict with other arguments but still take the same target in Future Sight. Some, like Jordy here:
Not only do I think that Doom Desire would make for a much more interesting process, CAP already has a plethora of strong Psychic-types, like Mega Alakazam, Tapu Lele, and Mega Medicham, which CAP 26 will have to directly compete with.
say that Future Sight would compete too much with other Psychic-types to be a viable option. However, snake_rattler's quote above reinforces my next point that Future Sight users actually synergize with other Psychic-types, while Doom Desire users would only compete with other Steel-types. There are a huge number Steel-types in the current meta, and many teams rely on these Steels to patch up offensive or defensive holes in the team. Running a DD user would run the risk of competing with special attackers like Magearna and Magnezone, stacking weaknesses with defensive walls like Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Celesteele, or cluttering offensive coverage with physical attackers like Mega Mawile, Kartana, or Kitsunoh. Also, I think it is pretty universally true that Psychic-spam is better than Steel-spam, if only by virtue of Tapu Lele.

Overall, I'm hoping this doesn't become a clear-cut case of moving forward with Doom Desire because I honestly think Future Sight would be better and more interesting to the process.

tldr : just read the bold.
 
Last edited:

Jordy

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Since my post it has been brought up that we should analyze what makes Future Sight/Doom Desire users effective. This post below mostly answers the questions that were layed out by Dogfish44 in his submission, but I believe that it does a pretty good job at analyzing that, too.

One Pokemon which has been seen to fairly reliably use Future Sight is Slowking. What can we learn from Slowking about what makes a viable user of Future Sight? On the same token, what has led Jirachi to not be effective at using Doom Desire, and other Pokemon to not effectively use Future Sight?

If we look at Slowking, we can see that it has a wide movepool, backed up by a great Special Attack stat, meaning that it can force a ton of switches, as well as good bulk, and it's not passive when having to recover health, thanks to Regenerator, meaning that no turns are wasted. To add onto that, though not relevant in the CAP metagame, it can shuffle the opposing team around with Dragon Tail, which is very useful. In short, a potent Future Sight user, has to be able to force switches and not be passive. Although not brought up in the question, I'd also quickly like to talk about Dialga, which is an effective user of Doom Desire. The main things that I believe to contribute to Dialga's successful usage of Doom Desire are its absurd stats and the fact that it has such a freedom in picking abilities, in this case that would be Tinted Lens or Steelworker.

On the other hand, there's Jirachi, which does not use Future Sight or Doom Desire, and I think there's a very good reason for that. Despite having a wide movepool, it can usually not fit any coverage. Additionally, Jirachi's only good way of recovering health is through Wish, meaning that it is passive. It will almost always want to run Iron Head, because the flinch chance is simply too valuable, leaving no room for Doom Desire or Future Sight. To add onto that, it can rarely afford to run purely offensive sets because of the metagame, which forces it to run a lot specially defensive spread, or a Choice Scarf, which is not inherently offensive.

What is the optimum usage of Future Sight/Doom Desire, both on the turn immediately after using the move, and the turn on which the move will land?

I believe that the optimal usage of Future Sight/Doom Desire would be to use it on a forced switch, after which CAP 26 can continue to pressure the opposition or switch into a teammate which can pressure potential resistant Pokemon.

Should the user of Future Sight/Doom Desire be primarily helping itself, or other teammates. If helping itself, what is the aim? If helping teammates, then what types of teammate?

This is a bit of a tricky question, but I believe that it should primarily be used for itself, because it'll need a wide movepool to force switches and pressure Pokemon to begin with. However, it can certainly be used for teammates too, like pressuring Poison-types for Jumbao for example.

Are Z-Future Sight and Z-Doom Desire mandatory, or just useful tools?

I don't think either are mandatory, they're just useful. In CAP, Slowking have been dropping Psychium Z recently, in favor of other items, such as Iapapa Berry or Colbur Berry. This is not because it's bad by any means, but Slowking in CAP doesn't run it as often anymore because the meta simply doesn't favor it. So in short, I believe the Z-Moves are nothing more than useful tools.
 
All the mentions of stuff like lezzy cuttlefish's "steel special attacker" and Jordy's "specially offensive Steel-types" makes me really want to bring this up:

Does our CAP need STAB on the delayed turn move?

While Psychic and Steel are both rare coverage types, they are not unheard of; these sets I've found in Smogon's Strategy Pokedex use Psychic and/or Steel coverage:

Flygon @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Iron Tail

Hydreigon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Fire Blast

Aromatisse @ Fairium Z
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Trick Room
- Nasty Plot
- Moonblast
- Psychic

Guzzlord @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 196 Def / 252 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power Steel

While this is a Monotype set and Psyshock notably hits opponents on the physical side despite being a special attack, the Strategy Pokedex entry for this Sylveon set mainly notes Psyshock's coverage against Poison-types:

Sylveon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 240 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 12 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Hidden Power Fire
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball

Additionally, Protean Greninja's Strategy Pokedex entries still mention the Psychic-type Extrasensory as a way to beat Toxapex, and OU Zygarde-50% sets sometimes used Iron Tail (possibly with Steelium Z) as a way to deal with Clefable. Haxorus's Strategy Pokedex entries also mention Iron Tail in places as a way to deal with Fairies.

Figuring out whether we are open to having the delayed turn move as a coverage move should definitely affect which delayed turn move we pick. (Doom Desire is the stronger coverage move in a vacuum, but Future Sight can be boosted with Psychic Surge support in order to threaten checks more strongly.) Additionally, if we consider Future Sight as a coverage move, we no longer have to worry about our CAP encouraging Psychic Spam teams.
 

Frostbiyt

Not Exactly Helping
is a Pre-Contributor
In a twist that will come to the surprise of no one, I disagree with the majority opinion. I think that CAP 26 should get both Future Sight and Doom Desire.

When choosing which move(s) to focus on, our main question should be: Would this help CAP 26 be more effective at its role than the other options? The role of a Future Sight/Doom Desire user has been discussed a bit in the thread already and I think this statement by Jordy sums it up pretty well:
If we look at Slowking, we can see that it has a wide movepool, backed up by a great Special Attack stat, meaning that it can force a ton of switches, as well as good bulk, and it's not passive when having to recover health, thanks to Regenerator, meaning that no turns are wasted. To add onto that, though not relevant in the CAP metagame, it can shuffle the opposing team around with Dragon Tail, which is very useful. In short, a potent Future Sight user, has to be able to force switches and not be passive. Although not brought up in the question, I'd also quickly like to talk about Dialga, which is an effective user of Doom Desire. The main things that I believe to contribute to Dialga's successful usage of Doom Desire are its absurd stats and the fact that it has such a freedom in picking abilities, in this case that would be Tinted Lens or Steelworker.
So how does having both help CAP 26 achieve its goal of effectively forcing switches? Unpredictability and threat. When it comes to forcing switches, the Pokemon that can do that most effectively don't even need to use the move in question. A move that you could have is worth about half as much as a move you do have. How often have you been in a battle facing a Tapu Lele and thought: "should I switch in X Pokemon? What if it has Focus Blast? Maybe I should switch in Y Pokemon, but what if it has HP Fire?" This uncertainty can be used to your advantage as it limits the Pokemon that your opponent will want to switch in or make it more likely that they make a mistake. And this unpredictability doesn't go away once you use one of the moves. What if you have both moves? What if you used Future Sight to lure in certain checks but then surprise them with a Z Doom Desire?

Another minor benefit of using both is that we create a more unique Pokemon. Currently there aren't any Pokemon that run both of these moves(either on the same or separate sets), so both could help CAP 26 stand out from other users of Future Sight.

And finally to address something that's been brought up a few times so far:
Firstly, I believe it will be easier to make Doom Desire desirable against Flash Cannon compared to Future Sight against Psychic.
While this is a hurdle we need to tackle, we don't need to do so at this stage of the process, there are potential solutions that can be put in place later.
 

snake_rattler

Bold to assume that I won't have the last laugh...
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Psychic is a stronger offensive type--it hits Poison and Fighting super-effectively, and is resisted by Psychic, Steel, and Dark is immune. Steel, on the other hand, hits Fairy, Ice, and Rock super-effectively, while being resisted by Fire, Electric, Water, and Steel. Although you could argue, and rightfully so, that Steel's lack of an immunity makes it harder to switch into and better as a delayed attack, I'd argue that Psychic's immunity is actually a benefit for it. For example, say a Future Sight user is against a team that only has a Poison, Ghost, and Dark-type left. The player with the Dark-type is put into a difficult situation where they can switch into the Future Sight with their Dark-type and take no damage, or switch in their Ghost-type to get neutral damage but hopefully switch into a predicted coverage move such as a Focus Blast. This kind of mindgame is healthy for the metagame as it increases the complexity of play on both players. You could do a similar situation with a Steel-type, but the risk vs. reward is lessened due to every pokemon taking at least some damage from the move. I think that Future Sight is better offensively without being broken, as, even with Psychic Terrain, Future Sight still has all the same drawbacks it would normally have with a delayed attack. Hence, why you rarely ever see a Tapu Lele running Future Sight. If we do think CAP 26 would become broken, we can always exclude movepool options like Focus Blast or Moonblast that would prevent it from hitting Dark types effectively. (This also comes with the fact that you really have only three turns--two if you take a turn to switch Lele out--of Psychic Terrain because FS hits two turns later). I might provide some calcs later.
So the reason you don't see Tapu Lele running Future Sight is because Tapu Lele doesn't have acess to Future Sight. And if it did, Tapu Lele would be pretty fantastic at using it on Specs sets to really lay down the pain.

There's also the problem of what happens when you can't hit Dark-types effectively. For one, Pursuit is so common in the metagame that CAP26 would flop over to those because a Future Sight user really should be switching out to maximize the utility of the delayed attack. I think you're right when Future Sight is better offensively, but I don't think you can claim that it won't be broken. For a Future Sight Pokemon to actually be prominent, it'll have to do good damage to neutral targets, since Poison-types and Fighting-types have fallen off rather hard lately. So, it's going to have to hit rather hard, and this brings me to my next point.

However, snake_rattler's quote above reinforces my next point that Future Sight users actually synergize with other Psychic-types, while Doom Desire users would only compete with other Steel-types. There are a huge number Steel-types in the current meta, and many teams rely on these Steels to patch up offensive or defensive holes in the team. Running a DD user would run the risk of competing with special attackers like Magearna and Magnezone, stacking weaknesses with defensive walls like Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Celesteele, or cluttering offensive coverage with physical attackers like Mega Mawile, Kartana, or Kitsunoh. Also, I think it is pretty universally true that Psychic-spam is better than Steel-spam, if only by virtue of Tapu Lele.
The reason why I said that Future Sight users would synergize with other Psychic-types is because I think that would be honestly catastrophic for the metagame. Psychic-types aren't an overbearing presence on the metagame now, but with a 6th good Psychic-type user, one that specifically puts its checks on the line by trapping in the unwinnable situation, I think we run the risk of making a broken Pokemon. I've experienced enough CAP processes to know that if we're worried about an element of process being broken the entire time, the project's morale tanks quickly. Basically, if you don't have a Steel-type on your team, you better be a really, really hyper offense team, otherwise you're losing to one of the 5 prominent Psychic-types I mentioned in my previous post. While I know that Sample Teams are relatively outdated and that Jho plans to revamp them them after the Necturna nerf, notice that how all of the teams have Steel-types, except for rain hyper offense. The trend of every team running a Steel-type continues to the more recent metagame. And even then, basically every rain team that doesn't feature Necturna has a Ferrothorn, and most nowadays hyper offense teams run Magearna because it compresses a sweeper with a Psychic-type check. Just try to run a team without a Steel-type; you'll struggle with at least Tapu Lele and Mega Alakazam. My point is, Psychic-types are already very prominent in the metagame, forcing every team to run a check, and having CAP26 synergize with other Psychic-types would only make this worse. I know it seems like I'm going back and forth between "oh yeah Pursuit trap will check it" and "stacking with other Psychic spammers will make it broken" but that's the problem - a Future Sight CAP26 would make the metagame even more centered around Pursuit trappers and Steel-types checking Psychic-types. This affects process by making it tough to balance, which will force us to make difficult, annoying decisions the entire CAP, trying to find the sweet spot where Future Sight CAP26 isn't unviable and broken alongside other Psychic-types.

On the other hand, I'm not sure why you think running two Steel-types is detrimental. A lot of balance teams can run two Steel-types in my experience, especially an offensive one like Heatran, Mega Mawile, and Magearna and a defensive one like Ferrothorn or Celesteela. Another combinations of dual Steel-types right now is Kitsunoh + one of Heatran / Ferrothorn / Magearna / Celesteeela. The point is, stacking Steel-types is already common (again, the whole Psychic-types already being a huge force in the metagame with Future Sight CAP26), and this won't affect CAP26's placement in the metagame.

If it boils down to having an interesting, fun process, Doom Desire is the better choice because we won't be as worried about balance (this TLT will make a big deal of that) and we get to explore a move we'll likely never have the opportunity to again, at least in the near future.
 

G-Luke

Edgy Shit
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All the mentions of stuff like lezzy cuttlefish's "steel special attacker" and Jordy's "specially offensive Steel-types" makes me really want to bring this up:

Does our CAP need STAB on the delayed turn move?

While Psychic and Steel are both rare coverage types, they are not unheard of; these sets I've found in Smogon's Strategy Pokedex use Psychic and/or Steel coverage:

Flygon @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Iron Tail

Hydreigon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Fire Blast

Aromatisse @ Fairium Z
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Trick Room
- Nasty Plot
- Moonblast
- Psychic

Guzzlord @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 196 Def / 252 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power Steel

While this is a Monotype set and Psyshock notably hits opponents on the physical side despite being a special attack, the Strategy Pokedex entry for this Sylveon set mainly notes Psyshock's coverage against Poison-types:

Sylveon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 240 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 12 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Hidden Power Fire
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball

Additionally, Protean Greninja's Strategy Pokedex entries still mention the Psychic-type Extrasensory as a way to beat Toxapex, and OU Zygarde-50% sets sometimes used Iron Tail (possibly with Steelium Z) as a way to deal with Clefable. Haxorus's Strategy Pokedex entries also mention Iron Tail in places as a way to deal with Fairies.

Figuring out whether we are open to having the delayed turn move as a coverage move should definitely affect which delayed turn move we pick. (Doom Desire is the stronger coverage move in a vacuum, but Future Sight can be boosted with Psychic Surge support in order to threaten checks more strongly.) Additionally, if we consider Future Sight as a coverage move, we no longer have to worry about our CAP encouraging Psychic Spam teams.
Discounting the Monotype and Greninja references (Monotype is an inherently different metagame with different requirements of the Pokemon on the team; Protean Greninja actually uses it as a STAB attack), I think its important to compare the most relevant users of Psychic and Steel coverage in the CAP metagame, since we are building for here, it should be important to note just how useful these coverage types are in the CAP metagame.


A skim through the CAP Viability rankings reveals it very clearly - There are no notable users of Steel type coverage, and only one notable user of Psychic coverage - Quiver Dance Volcarona. Now, this in and of itself should raise eyebrows - as plenty of Pokemon in the metagame have access to Steel and Psychic coverage, but it almost never utilized. This falls back into the point of Psychic and Steel - these types are particularly terrible coverage options, and a Pokémon would have to be handicapped coverage / typing wise to even try and use it. Saying that one should rely on these moves as coverage puts unnecessary strain on both the typing and movepool stages, as a Pokemon would have to have a typing that not only has inherently bad coverage in the metagame, but would also be forced to rely on Psychic coverage to succeed. Then on top of that, the CAP would need to have its movepool reigned in so that it would have much other coverage options other than the typing of the delayed move in question, THEN only give access to the delayed move in terms of coverage. Why is this detrimental? Take a look at why Pokémon utilize coverage moves. Pokemon use coverage in order to eliminate threats that would it cannot threaten with STABs alone, that would, without access to said coverage, either threaten to KO, cripple or otherwise snag all the momentum the Pokemon in question had prior to the threat switching in. Now relying on delay moves as coverage does exactly that - the threat can just kill the Pokémon outright, cripple it with status or Knock Off or otherwise force the Pokemon into mind games that it would have preferred to place the threat in. This becomes a bigger issue in that the threat can just switch out, and thanks to lack of STAB, the switch in to the delayed attack would not under anywhere as much offensive pressure as it would have as if it were STAB instead.

Relying on a delayed attack for coverage spells trouble for CAP 26, and while this might lock us into a set amount of typings, this is an issue that should have been considered and accepted as a real possibility the moment it was voted in. That is much better than creating a Pokemon with a bad offensive typing that then relies on moves with traditionally bad offensive coverage, which would just run the risk of being a mediocre pick in the metagame
 

LucarioOfLegends

Saint of the Church of The Holy Pluffle
is a CAP Contributor
Yo, I've been sick lets post.

In terms of the debate on which move should be focused on, Future Sight or Doom Desire, I am firmly in Doom Desire camp, which I will get into in just a moment. I do want to cover a certain argument for not focusing on either for a second.

Some people have stated that not focusing on either will lead to bottle-necking in the typing discussion, as one primary type will be heavily desired for STAB purposes. I say this is a moot point simply because the Pajantom process experienced something somewhat similar. While it was psuedo-decided on that we were focusing on full trapping moves (aka Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle), neither one was specifically selected as our focus. But lo and behold, the number of Steel and Ghost typing submission vastly exceeded the number of non-STAB one, and the winning typing did capitalize on STAB Spirit Shackle. Saying that "we shouldn't focus on either one" only opens up our options slightly (from one typing to two pm), and could lead to a lot more confusion in terms of our other processes later. These moves also being possibly non-STAB coverage means I also don't consider a serious option, as no switch-in will be threatened by a move coming two turns later from when it was initialized, and the likelyhood of using a different coverage move that doesn't require two turns to hit is much more likely than not.

As for why Doom Desire is more desirable (heh), Doom Desire has far less competition in terms of typing at attacking, while Future Sight has to compete with all of the other psychic types in the tier, resulting in its role and balance becoming much more murky. Our Future Sight user will most likely have to fight for a spot with all the Psychic-types in CAP right now, which include Tapu Lele, Mega Alakazam, Aurumoth, Mega Medicham, and some other more niche ones like Mew and Victini as well. Psychic-spam is great in CAP rn, so the chances of CAP26 actually suceeding is much less likely if its only packing Future Sight. Doom Desire has a lot less competition in terms of Steel-type moves, especially on the special side. Almost all users of Steel-type moves are physical, and even those who can run it usually do not because its less optimal against what they are looking to catch (AV Magearna). And while Doom Desire doesn't have that great offensive coverage, Future Sight can be halted by any Dark-type in the meta. Doom Desire seems like a no brainer for me.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
is a Pre-Contributor
I think that discussing which move is more powerful is irrelevant, because we can easily balance both of them, due to the fact can both can are resisted by Steel types: if you look at the viability ranking, there are 4 Steel types just between the S and A+ rank, that can handle a Steel type move and 2 of them can even take a non-4x Hidden Power, so I guess that we need to talk about other stuff.

Yeah Doom Desire can be scarier to look since it can't be fully blocked, but this can still be balanced, it will be more difficult, but that's job of the CAP Process

"CAP is about the journey, not the destination" -DougJustDoug
 

SHSP

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Moderator
Super pleased with the discussion going on so far, really like how we're approaching the moves and what we can get from choosing either. I'd like to add a few more questions to discuss as well as which move to choose:

What roles do these moves best support/encourage?

The discussion I have observed has leaned towards a pivoting role being the best role for a FS/DD mon, but are there other roles that can be done well thanks to these delayed moves? What options do these moves open up/limit? Is either move better suited to a role than the other?


What tools work best with delayed attack moves?


This question brewed from a combination of MX's post above that detailed the "standard plan" for a delayed move's three turns, and some conversation on Discord where momentum was brought up as something the delayed moves are very good at. These moves can change the play pattern of your opponent- forcing a switch, preventing something else from switching in, and overall giving you turns to work with that are much safer or more free by limiting your opponents options. What can we do with that momentum- and how can these added tools incentivize the moves without overshadowing them?
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
is a Pre-Contributor
What roles do these moves best support/encourage?

Outside of pivoting, DD/FS can be good for wallbreaking, since that they can be turned into a strong Z-Move
 
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