CAP 26 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

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Quanyails

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Please pay very close attention to Jordy's posts during this thread and remain on topic. DO NOT begin by posting massive lists of abilities!

Some general rules for this discussion:
  • Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
  • There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.
  • Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning. Posts that rely on flavor reasoning will be deleted.
The following abilities are banned from this discussion:
Air Lock
Arena Trap
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Color Change
Dark Aura
Defeatist
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise
Fairy Aura
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Fur Coat
Huge Power
Illusion
Imposter
Moody
Multitype
Parental Bond
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor
Protean
Pure Power
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield
Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Slow Start
Stance Change
Teravolt
Truant
Turboblaze
Victory Star
Water Bubble
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Beast Boost
Comatose
Drizzle
Drought
Electric Surge
Fluffy
Grassy Surge
Innards Out
Magic Bounce
Magic Guard
Misty Surge
Prankster
Psychic Surge
Sand Stream
Snow Warning
Speed Boost
Stamina
Triage

Battery
Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Power of Alchemy
Receiver
Run Away
Symbiosis
Telepathy


------------------
CAP 26 so far:

Dogfish44 said:
Name - The Future is Bright!

Description - A Pokemon that makes usage of the 'delayed-attack' moves - Future Sight and/or Doom Desire

Justification - Given we're attempting to create a Pokemon that uses one of two specific moves, this is an Actualisation concept. Future Sight and Doom Desire are incredibly unique moves, which see limited usage in spite of their high base power, and ability to have a target Pokemon struck twice in the same turn. In using CAP26, the aim is to create a Pokemon that inspires a feeling of being able to trap opponents, to establish win-win situations.

Questions To Be Answered -
One Pokemon which has been seen to fairly reliably use Future Sight is Slowking. What can we learn from Slowking about what makes a viable user of Future Sight? On the same token, what has led Jirachi to not be effective at using Doom Desire, and other Pokemon to not effectively use Future Sight?
What is the optimum usage of Future Sight/Doom Desire, both on the turn immediately after using the move, and the turn on which the move will land?
Should the user of Future Sight/Doom Desire be primarily helping itself, or other teammates. If helping itself, what is the aim? If helping teammates, then what types of teammate?
Are Z-Future Sight and Z-Doom Desire mandatory, or just useful tools?
Explantion - Doom Desire is almost one we've done before, as people from the era of Cawmodore probably remember. Whilst little has changed since then, we have seen Future Sight get another power level increase since then.

This isn't a case of using a move which we know can't be used - we can look to Slowking (Future Sight) or Dialga (Balanced Hackmons, Doom Desire) for inspiration on what makes these moves workable. At the same time, we know that they're not automatic locks in spite of their high base power, allowing us room to explore what makes these moves often fall flat.

The beauty of Future Sight and Doom Desire as concept leads is that they don't massively restrict our ability to choose a direction right from the gate - focussing on these moves for their ability to strike twice in a single turn likely produces a Pokemon that is very different from focussing on these moves for their ability to force specific Pokemon out for a teammate to switch in. Whether we create a Pokemon that breaks walls, or pivots around, or supports a very specific partner, or something else entirely, these moves make for a concept that should be both interesting to implement, and with many avenues to explore.
Topic Leader: SHSP

Topic Leadership Team:
Typing Leader: GMars
Ability Leader: Jordy
Stats Leader: Jho
Movepool Leader: G-Luke

Typing: Steel/Ground

Threats:
SHSP said:
Switch Ins: Mega Crucibelle, Clefable, Tapu Koko, Most Tornadus-T, Magearna lacking Focus Blast

Counters: Celesteela, Rotom-Wash, Arghonaut, Chansey

Checks: Mega Latias and Latios, Ash Greninja, Volkraken, Mega Charizard X and Y, AV Tyranitar, Landorus-T, Ferrothorn
Primary Ability: Levitate

Stats: 102 HP / 50 Atk / 96 Def / 133 SpA / 118 SpD / 60 Spe
 

Jordy

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Hello everyone, now that CAP 26's stats have been decided, we will be moving onto CAP 26's secondary ability.

Between us, the TLT, there has been a lot of discussion whether any of the other slated primary abilities are too much for a secondary ability. We'd really like to hear your thoughts on Regenerator, Bulletproof, and Water Absorb, so we'll be hosting a 24/48 hour (this depends entirely on activity) long discussion that will focus on these abilities. When considering these abilities, we want you to think about what being a secondary ability means, and based on your thoughts, we will come to a conclusion.
 

GMars

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A secondary ability at its core cannot overshadow the primary ability. This is the only "set in stone" requirement for this discussion. Personally, I believe good secondary abilities should either enable alternate, somewhat less effective roles or should cover a separate, yet smaller set of threats.

With regards to our primary ability slate, Regenerator has the highest chance to overshadow Levitate as a primary ability, and so I believe it should be barred from this discussion. Bulletproof, on the other hand, fits what a secondary ability should do nicely, not overshadowing the sweeping Ground immunity that Levitate provides while offering the opportunity to cover a thin yet relevant slice of Pokemon better -- Mega Alakazam, non-Fightinium Tapu Lele, and some Magearna.

Water Absorb has my concern as potentially overshadowing Levitate just from broadness of application on paper, but when looking at the matchups it actually covers, it seems to hit the same sort of ground as Bulletproof in only covering a few reliably, such as Tapu Fini and Toxapex, while handling a few other mons unreliably like Choice-locked Volkraken. I'm on the fence wrg to this ability's potential to overshadow Levitate and would like to hear more thoughts on it.
 

Frostbiyt

Not Exactly Helping
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I suggest Fist Absorb: an ability that grants a fighting immunity

I think that if we have a secondary ability, we should try not to choose one that overshadows the primary ability we picked, as the entire previous stage of the process was based around the assumption that CAP 26 was going to be running Levitate a good portion of the time.

The only ability of the three that I'd be concerned about is Regenerator as it has been proven to be a very powerful ability, especially given the level of bulk this CAP has.

I don't think the other two will overshadow Levitate, but currently I am of the opinion that we should not have a competitive secondary ability, especially one that grants an immunity. While it would add some unpredictability which would make it a bit easier to fire off a doom desire, I don't think this CAP needs the unpredictability provided by an additional immunity ability. Other than it, in my opinion, being unnecessary, the only other point I have against these abilities is that having two immunity abilities would lead to a lot of 50/50s while playing against it, which can be frustrating.
 

Dogfish44

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I actually disagree with the notion that secondary cannot overshadow primary - but I think we should avoid doing so unless we made a mistake earlier on in the process that requires a massive shift.

I just want to muse on the precedents for CAP's Secondary Abilities, given it's been a long while since we've had one proper - the starters all had the starter abilities, Jumbao had two abilities split for each weather, and Pajantom we sort of said "None" to. So the last time we actually had a proper secondary ability was with Kerfluffle... the better part of three years ago now! So I'm inclined to sort of define three types of secondary ability - the Useless, the Alternative, and the Replacement.

Useless
Most secondary abilities from CAP fall into this category - think Aroma Veil Kerfluffle, or Fidgit's Vital Spirit. These are very rarely seen, and just give the artists a migraine. I can think of many examples for this, but in general I think we should avoid this one. Obviously the abilities listed so far don't fall into this category.

Replacement
Prankster Tomohawk, Volt Absorb Cawmodore. The abilities that you really do expect on these mons, and they're both secondary abilities. This isn't a bad thing per se, but I think we should only use these sparingly - when we think "shoot, we messed up somewhere". And so far, I don't think we have!

For me, Regenerator falls into this category - essentially asking the question "can we find the right opportunities to use Doom Desire when we don't have automatic healing". I don't think that this is the case, but it's an avenue to explore. I think banning it from the discussion at the moment would be a negative overall. Personally though, especially comparing to the bulk of other Regenerator mons, this genuinely scares me as a choice.

Alternative
These are the abilities which exchange some checks and counters, or which enable a slightly different playstyle. You're not normally looking at 50-50 on usage, but they're gonna crop up. This is sort of like how Naviathan was tackled at the time, with a DD ability, and a CM ability.

For me, this includes Water Absorb and Bulletproof. I think the Spikes immunity alone means that these abilities will not see as much play, but both open up a different set of checks and counters, without compromising CAP26's focus on Doom Desire.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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Having a secondary ability overshadow the primary isn't neccesarily a bad thing if it was a complete accident. However it is not something that we should be actively striving for, considering how strong of an ability Levitate already is for this CAP and the multitude of ways it could go.

With that in mind, Regenerator is one that is very likely to overshadow Levitate if it in fact given as a secondary ability to this CAP. The unrivaled power of regaining health after a switch out (which is something CAP26 will be doing frequently considering the role we have decided to take it) is still something that a lot of people would prefer, and something I think encourages more flip-floppy play than the careful switchin mentality that Levitate encourages. This is something I feel confident we should be banning from discussion.

Almost every other ability allowed by this stage otherwise seems perfectly acceptable. I think the alternatives Dogfish mentions in their post are perfectly acceptable and can contribute to Doom Desire mindgames, and the more useless abilities can certainly be weeded out with proper discussion. Levitate as mentioned earlier is a very strong ability with numerous benefits for CAP, and the other possible alternatives all have notable weaknesses (Bulletproof only block Focus Blast and Aura Sphere) that hold back their level of power.
 
Oh boy, my first dive into the world of CAP discussions! Now, I'm obviously no expert on the subject, and it's been a long while since I've stepped onto the competitive scene, but I figure I'd share my ten cents on the matter, assuming I bring any valid points to the discussion at hand. Despite being primarily involved with the art aspect of these CAP projects, my thoughts on this subject still stem from a basic competitive standpoint, and not with the intent of vouching on certain abilities for my current design.

I'm in agreement with many other people here that Regenerator may be too powerful a choice when placed next to Levitate and the stats we've decided on. Personally, I'm leaning towards CAP26 having no secondary ability for the sake of keeping things a bit simpler, but both options have their pros and cons. Having two possible immunity abilities does lead to some possible mind games with switch-ins, and while CAP26's main draw is making use of Doom Desire over moves like Flash Cannon, having only one ability puts it at risk of becoming it a one-trick 'mon. Bulletproof would likely be my top choice for a secondary ability, considering how it still grants immunites, albeit for a more specialized/niche range of moves, making it the least likely to overshadow Levitate.

...Ehhh, but what do I know, I'm just a forum lurker who puts out a CAP design once in a blue moon.
 
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In my opinion, Regenerator is an ability that is one of the best in the entire game, and especially with our bulk, would easily run the risk to outclass Levitate. We already have great bulk as is, and I somewhat worry that depending on our tools, we could drop Doom Desire and become simply a Regenerator mon, but I digress. Regenerator is just insane as an ability, to where it would be completely insane to give this as a secondary.

Bulletproof, despite being an immunity ability, I feel should be allowed for discussion. It only targets about three Pokémon overall, regardless of how crucial these matchups are. It is a bit of a guessing game, but not only do only three Pokémon get forced into it, these Pokémon are ones many have wanted to improve our matchup with. Therefore, I feel Bulletproof should be allowed for discussion.

Water Absorb is also an immunity ability, but I actually feel like this is a bad choice for 26. The main reason being that the Pokémon Water Absorb handles are pretty much the opposite of what we want. It has us walling Rotom-Wash, meaning we can set up a Doom Desire and go into a Pokémon that can kill Rotom-Wash. It also puts the matchup in our favor for Volkraken and Ash-Greninja locked into Hydro Pump or Water Shuriken. While I understand the threatlist is not concrete in nature, I feel that improving our matchup against two major offensive checks against us when we already are very bulky and have a good defensive type just isn’t the way to go. This isn’t even mentioning the idea that we have a positive matchup against a Pokémon who resists or is immune to our STABs in Rotom-Wash. Also, before anyone decides to say it, while we do come in on Electric-type moves from it, we absolutely cannot stay in, lest we take a Hydro Pump to the face. Therefore, I believe Water Absorb should be banned from discussion.
 
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Out of the listed options I strongly support Bulletproof for the reason that it will not frequently overshadow Levitate as it does not offer an equivalent blanket spread of immunities, but purely by existing as a potential ability improves CAP 26's ability to fire off Doom Desires against certain teams due to its ability to wall key Psychic-spam threats. Unless Spikes are up, or some other form of confirmation that CAP 26 is not running Levitate is found, Tapu Lele and Mega Alakazam cannot afford to stay in on a healthy CAP 26 as they are both cleanly 2HKOd by Earth Power while CAP 26 will either just survive a Focus Blast or take nothing at all, which is a gamble they cannot afford to take. Alternatively this can easily lure out Lele's AoP. Overall I think this is a flavourful and interesting option that allows for CAP 26 to succeed more effectively in its role as a pivot, where even not being run it offers some benefits, while also being good enough to shore up some specific team weaknesses should it wish.

While I personally don't believe that Regenerator will overshadow Levitate the majority of the time only reasonably opening up an Assault Vest set, it will solely by existing limit a lot of options in the moves stage, primarily reliable recovery, which could in turn reduce the viability of the primary Levitate set and become a self fulfilling prophecy.

I have never been a fan of Water Absorb as it crosses the threshold too significantly in neutralising defensive threats like Toxapex and Rotom-W.
 

Bughouse

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I would caution against a second ability at all to be honest. Type immunity abilities are REALLY good. Levitate is not only removing one of the CAP’s weaknesses but also giving immunity to spikes.

When an ability doesn’t have this large of an impact, say, if the primary is like... Rough Skin, you can easily slot in second some other minor ability with a different small niche.

But when it’s an immunity, nothing else will get used short of another immunity. And then you have the problem of basically needing two dedicated counters to the Pokemon, one for each. It’s not a recipe for a healthy metagame.

I’m reminded of Cawmodore getting Intimidate as primary to facilitate its ability to set up, and then Volt Absorb got added second... guess which one actually gets used? Immunity abilities are REALLY good.

 
I’ll keep my post succinct, as most of this has already been stated.

Regenerator would almost certainly overshadow Levitate. Coupled with 26’s bulk it just makes too tempting an option.

Water Absorb and Bulletproof are essentially on even footing as far as how useful they’ll be to 26, but the thing to me that makes Bulletproof preferable is that it helps CAP 26 against the relevant mons that it was intended to face off against. Water Absorb renders good, solid Water type checks to 26 useless, while Bulletproof will primarily help patch a hole created by coverage moves on a few troublesome Psychic types.
 
I’m in favor of Bulletproof complimenting Levitate and providing an option to help switch in to Psychics, without granting a fully Fighting immunity.

Similarly, Heatproof could serve as a niche option to tank certain Fire attacks. Seeing as how we have a STAB that hits Fire types for SE damage, it might be interesting if we could lure in Fire types hoping to tank a Doom Desire, tanking a Fire attack and retaliating with Earth Power.

To me, that makes infinitely more sense than Water Absorb, which would result in a lot more stalemate situations, like with Rotom W.
 
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Jordy

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With the help of everyone that posted in the thread, we've come to the conclusion that banning Regenerator and Water Absorb, while not banning Bulletproof is the desirable course for CAP 26.
  • Regenerator is being banned for very simple reasons; it's too strong to be a secondary ability and the risk of overshadowing Levitate that it brings with it is simply too much.
  • Water Absorb, while very similar to Levitate in what it does, affects the Checks and Counters list too heavily at this stage of the process.
From here on out, feel free to throw around suggestions for CAP 26's secondary ability, or if it needs a secondary ability at all. I will probably make a post summarizing all the suggestions and 'question' them in about 2 to 3 days.
 
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Bulletproof is a solid choice here. Doesn't overshadow Levitate, doesn't make 26 broken, and thus far there have been no good arguments against it. Additionally, it'd be the first Pokemon to exist that actually benefits noticeably from having Bulletproof.
 
Bulletproof is clearly a strong option that somewhat concerns me due to the many 50/50 situations that it could create. However I'm glad that it is still under discussion because I'd like to hear more from its proponents on how such guessing games might create interesting or healthy gameplay.

I don't think Heatproof is strong enough to merit discussion as a secondary ability, as Fire-type attacks tend to be both very powerful and somewhat niche in the current metagame. The Fire-types that CAP 26 would want to switch into, such as Heatran, Victini, Volcarona, and Volkraken, pack the firepower necessary to overwhelm even our strong defenses with powerful neutral hits. Choice Band V-Create, Magma Storm, omniboosted Searing Shot, and Analytic- or Quiver Dance-boosted Fire Blast are all moves that 26 will not be able to tank comfortably with only a Fire-type neutrality. Flash Fire would be far more viable as an alternative, although it would result in some of the same potential problems as Bulletproof.

Solid Rock and Filter are generic albeit possibly effective options to improve our matchup vs non-STAB coverage from Tornadus, Magearna, and various Psychics without promoting some of the potentially oppressive guessing games that would result from having two different immunity abilities. I think they warrant more discussion and calcs, especially now that we have base stats to work with.
 
Bulletproof is clearly a strong option that somewhat concerns me due to the many 50/50 situations that it could create. However I'm glad that it is still under discussion because I'd like to hear more from its proponents on how such guessing games might create interesting or healthy gameplay.
While it may seem like a 50/50 situation, I think the reason why Bulletproof is acceptable is that Levitate is on average so much better. Avoiding Spikes and a common weakness / coverage type is a really big deal. That being said, what Bulletproof allows (even when not being run) is for early Doom Desires to come out with cautious plays from the opponent. In your average game Spikes is usually not going to be set up by Turn 3-4, which means that in specific scenarios against offensive threats like Mega Zam and Lele that are 2HKOd by coverage in the early game (Aurumoth may get 2HKOd with coverage but this isn't relevant at this stage) CAP 26 will be granted either a free opportunity to Doom Desire for fear of a whiffed Focus Blast or in the case of Lele could effectively lure out AoP because there is no way of determining whether Levitate is being run outside of teambuilding considerations.

I do understand that this scenario could be viewed as dangerous should Spikes somehow be kept off the field all game, but this is a pretty unrealistic expectation considering the ubiquity of Spikes on most teams and more importantly that choosing not to play CAP 26 to maintain its ability anonymity will likely be a detriment to the team that is running it because of its ability to stomach strong resisted and neutral hits, and particularly if it is carrying an important Ground-type resist.

Conversely to the original scenario that I outline, trying to deliberately play mindgames against threats like Lele and Alakazam if it isn't actually carrying Bulletproof can naturally lead to CAP 26 being sacked if the opponent takes the risk. This specific situation is admittedly unlikely, as bringing CAP 26 into M-Alakazam if Spikes hasn't been set is a pretty clear sign of it running Bulletproof.

I don't think it's really worth explaining the benefit of actually running Bulletproof in these matchups as its pretty straightforward (once AoP has been used).

Overall I think being able to selectively force key metagame threats and wallbreakers out at least in the early game (or permanently if Bulletproof is actually being run) is certainly worth it and in fact quite pro-concept, as it does maximise switch-in opportunities to allow for more Doom Desires.
 
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If Heatproof is considered to weak as a secondary ability then we may want to give it Thick Fat. Burns aren't a major concern while removing a weakness while providing a resistance to a common attack type might make it worth while compared to Levitate which flatout removes a weakness and turns it into a immunity. I think it would provide a nice alternative to Levitate without overshadowing it.

I am more in favor Bulletproof, though in most cases it acts more like a niche/lure then a optimal option. Outside of a few matchups it is almost always more beneficial to just run Levitate. I think it is on brand for the concept however and do think it could provide some interesting mindgames.

I am against any other form of type immunity ability [Dry Skin, Flash Fire, Sap Sipper, Lightning Rod, Motor Drive, Storm Drain, Volt Absorb, Water Absorb]. They either provide too little merit or go against concept as previously stated in other people's comments. Also having two immunity abilities can potentially cause this CAP to be unhealthy in a metagame if both abilities cover a weakness fully, essentially providing a 50/50 weather or not you guess correctly. Lastly the relevent immunity abilities [DS, FF, SD and WA] allow CAP 26 to beat some of its checks which I am not a fan of.

Lastly if CAP 26 is only given Doom Desire as its sole steel STAB then I would advocate for Steelworker. If it is given the ability to use flash cannon or any other steel move then I would be vividly against it. However you would sacrifice the safety and consistency of levitate to hit like a truck. Z-Boosted Doom Desire with an extra 50% on top of that would be a nuclear option in said case but would be easily punished afterwards.
 
I think that with Levitate and solid base stats, there is no need for CAP 26 to have any significantly competitive secondary ability. If we wanted a good secondary ability, Bulletproof would be a strong contender, as most other abilities would find themselves outclassed by Levitate almost 100% of the time, rendering them pointless. However, given that Levitate already gives CAP 26 an excellent matchup against Ground-types like Garchomp and Landorus-T, I think there is no need to further improve our matchup against the likes of Mega Alakazam Magearna and Tapu Lele and it would be wiser to keep CAP 26 with only one great ability.
 

Deck Knight

Seize Your Doom
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I supported Bulletproof in primary ability and still feel it would be an excellent secondary ability.

That said, I wanted to look a little closer at Solid Rock / Filter. CAP has excellent bulk and Solid Rock is incredible for dampening many strong blows. I ran a few calcs using Jordy's recommended spread (248 HP / 64 Def / 88 SpD [Modest])

252 SpA Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Solid Rock Excadrill: 159-187 (39 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Solid Rock Excadrill: 237-279 (58.2 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Solid Rock Excadrill: 249-294 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Tapu Lele All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Solid Rock Excadrill: 373-441 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Solid Rock Excadrill: 196-232 (48.1 - 57%) -- 40.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Solid Rock Excadrill: 222-262 (54.5 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Solid Rock Excadrill: 216-256 (53 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and trapping damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Solid Rock Excadrill: 366-432 (89.9 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 64 Def Solid Rock Excadrill: 178-210 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 64 Def Solid Rock Excadrill: 156-184 (38.3 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Arghonaut Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 64 Def Solid Rock Excadrill: 114-135 (28 - 33.1%) -- 87.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Solid Rock Excadrill: 150-177 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Latias-Mega Surf vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Solid Rock Excadrill: 105-124 (25.7 - 30.4%) -- 1.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Cyclohm Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Solid Rock Excadrill: 87-103 (21.3 - 25.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Solid Rock Excadrill: 84-99 (20.6 - 24.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery


My observation is that Solid Rock / Filter helps a great deal with coverage moves (like fighting coverage on Psychic mons) but makes no real difference against the STAB attacks used by Checks/Counters, save Rotom-W's Hydro Pump which gets knocked down to 3HKO instead of sometimes a 2HKO. I think it is safely pro-concept without overshadowing Levitate, and Spikes damage will negate any defensive breakthrough gained through the ability (except if you stack Assault Vest on top, but you could run Lev AV anyway). That said, if Spikes isn't down Solid Rock / Filter definitely enhance the ability to pivot and take some of these Super-effective special Z-moves quite well. I think it would serve effectively as a secondary ability.

Finally, I wanted to consider Sturdy. Sturdy allows CAP26 to survive a single hit to run down the clock on Doom Desire, and given our resistance to SR it can be utilized well with Leftovers. Sturdy with Protect and Leftovers would allow you to complete a Doom Desire cycle with certainty provided an opponent switches in on the Doom Desire turn.
 
I don't have much to add on what others have said on Bulletproof. Checking strong Psychics a bit easier was a strong desire from some earlier in the process and I believe this is a viable niche to justify using over Levitate without overshadowing it or making 26 overbearing between the two. Some have expressed concern about giving 26 multiple immunity abilities but I feel these are a bit exaggerated. Bulletproof isn't a full immunity, it's a move immunity. It's a very very important and crucial move immunity but it's not invalidating an entire type or drastically messing with the C&C in the process.

Filter/Solid Rock is okay, but I can't picture it having enough of a niche to want to use it over Levitate or take over Bulletproof. Deck's calcs make a good case but as I did during Primary I think these choices are still inferior to Bulletproof for the purpose of creating checkmate scenarios and putting on the pressure with DD.

I am completely against any abilities that boost damage at this stage of the game, (Steelworker, Tinted Lens, Adaptability etc. etc.). Doom Desire is only going to receive the benefits of abilities like this if it remains in battle when DD lands. This is pretty anti-concept as it encourages us to sit around instead of performing our pivot duties. I understand the appeal for something like Z-DD from Steelworker, especially with the prospect of NP down the line but I don't think this is the sort of thing to be encouraging for Secondary.



Not many other options have been thrown around at this time so I'll just do some quick lil thoughts on those.

Flash Fire/Heatproof/Thick Fat: I lump these all together as they fulfill the same function of sponging Fire attacks better but I feel the argument from Primary still stands. The majority of Fire types in CAP have powerful Ground/Fighting coverage that they commonly use, meaning most don't care at all if their Fire attacks are weaker/immune. Out of these Thick Fat is the most interesting as it does also provide 26 with an Ice resist. Not super relevant but it's got some neat application.

Every Other Immunity Ability: Big no from me chief. The concern of potentially making 26 overbearing to prep for by giving it multiple full immunity abilities is definitely one I share. The Water immunity abilities are already off the table but I don't think we should risk going for something like these.
 
I agree that the we should not aim to pick a secondary ability that would overshadow our primary ability. We should pick out abilities that may be niche but offers a unique approach to our concept, such as Super Luck and Merciless. Since Generation 5, Doom Desire can now land a critical hit. With Super Luck and a hold item, it has a 50% chance of dealing critical damage to the receiver. With Merciless and Toxic Spikes support, it's a guaranteed critical hit against poisoned foes. I am not that certain with the interaction between these abilities and the unique mechanics of the move, but if it works the way I imagine it to, these abilities could be serious options.
 

GMars

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My thoughts:

Bulletproof - Like I mentioned earlier, Bulletproof seems like a fitting secondary ability in that it offers the opportunity to cover a thin, relevant slice of Pokemon better than Levitate but wouldn't overshadow it due to its relatively limited application. I believe the concern of 50/50s is overstated, as it's not really a "50/50" chance. The choice would be clearly team-dependent and could often be easily identified from team preview and analyzing early-game pivots. I see it more as a "95/5" or a "90/10," which I'm more than happy to play against.

No Competitive Ability - Also a fine option. I look at this mon now with its Typing, Ability, and Stats and ask the question I asked at the beginning of typing. Would I use this on a team? Even without the movepool fleshed out, that answer is heavily trending towards yes. CAP26, in my opinion, doesn't need a second competitive ability to be an attractive choice in the CAP meta.

Solid Rock / Filter - A reasonable option that doesn't overshadow Levitate and has uses on the right kind of teams with existing Ground resists. I can also see its usefulness as a middleground bluff ability - bluffing Levitate while protecting yourself from other coverage or surprise denying 2hkos to get off a Doom Desire. Solidly pro-concept.

Sturdy - No real downside to this, not a huge upside either as far as I can tell but could allow for some niche sets.

Heatproof / Thick Fat - Similar to Sturdy and other poster's views on these so far, I don't see a huge benefit here, but neither would be necessarily detrimental to the concept.

Type-Immunity Abilities - Fairly risky choices that either risk replacing Levitate or mess with our C&C at a late stage in the process. Would need strong justification, but most posters so far seem to be in consensus that these aren't fitting for a secondary on this CAP.

Most Offensive Abilities - The primary problem with these is that CAP26 has to be in when Doom Desire lands for most of these to take effect, which can be difficult to do in-game. They present a simpler option of running attacks other than Doom Desire, especially since they close the power gap between Doom Desire and other attacks. They seem like risky options that don't bring much benefit to our concept on the surface. I'd ask supporters to look at not just the benefits they would give Doom Desire, but the benefits they would give CAP26's attacks as a whole, including the potential for Flash Cannon, and whether there's an imbalance in benefit there as it relates to our concept of making a Pokemon able to make use of delayed-attack moves.

There's a few other abilities I'd like to discuss later that haven't been brought up yet, but wanted to add in my thoughts on the discussion so far.
 

Jordy

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As promised, here are my thoughts on the currently suggested abilities.

Bulletproof: Many people seem to be in agreement that Bulletproof would make for a great secondary ability. It allows CAP 26 to switch into Focus Blast from Mega Alakazam, Tapu Lele, and Tornadus-T, while not risking much in terms of overshadowing Levitate.

No Competitive Ability: Similarly to Bulletproof, a lot of people have outed their support towards having no other competitive ability. The reason for this is that between its typing, Levitate, and its excellent bulk, CAP 26 most likely won't really need anything else.

Heatproof / Thick Fat: Heatproof and Thick Fat both have some decent upsides to them. While neither would be detrimental to the concept, I really want to see some calcs that these abilities would affect. If there are no significant calcs that these abilities affect, I really wonder what exactly makes them worth it and as such would like to read some justification.

Solid Rock / Filter: The consensus on Solid Rock and Filter seem to be that they're fine options. They can take some pressure off CAP 26 to take Focus Blast, turning some 2HKOes into 3HKOes, without really risking actually outclassing Levitate. Turning some 2HKOes into 3HKOes could also lead to some more opportunities to use Doom Desire.

Other immunity abilities: My bad for the generalization here, but they'd be too much to talk about seperately. Most people seem to agree that these abilities generally tend to risk outclassing Levitate or messing with CAP 26's Checks and Counters list too heavily.

Sturdy: People seem to agree that Sturdy isn't really an impactful ability, lacking a sizable amount of upsides OR downsides, but it does allow for some niche situations where CAP 26 could fire off a last effort Doom Desire, making it decently pro-concept. I'd really like to hear people's thoughts on Sturdy, as it has currently not seen a lot of discussion.

Super Luck / Sniper / Merciless: The issue I have with Super Luck and Sniper is that they're entirely dependent on luck, which makes it incredibly hard to justify them over any other ability. In the case of Merciless, I could somewhat see it working on a not-so consistent basis. However, I really can't help but feel like the justification that is used (making it easier to crit with Doom Desire), is such a weak link and not really pro-concept or anything like that, though I suppose that it isn't really anti-concept either. I'd really like to hear more thoughts on these abilities. I think that the two questions that really have to be answered right now are as follows: Why are they 'better' options when compared to other abilities? How exactly are they solidly pro-concept?

Steelworker
: I pretty much agree with everything GMars said here; Steelworker is a risky option that could potentially enable Flash Cannon, while also making it harder to incentivize pivoting. I'm pretty much echoing GMars here but I, too, think that the supporters should not look at just the benefits Steelworker would give to Doom Desire, but also the possibility of Flash Cannon and how there may be an imbalanced benefit as a result.

I swear I'm not an echo chamber that echo's GMars.
 
I agree with No Competitive Ability, if CAP26 with Levitate is enough by itself, theres no reason to grant the CAP26 with Levitate the additional buff of bluffing Bulletproof.
Deleting the rest cus I cba to argue it
 
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Heatproof / Thick Fat: Heatproof and Thick Fat both have some decent upsides to them. While neither would be detrimental to the concept, I really want to see some calcs that these abilities would affect. If there are no significant calcs that these abilities affect, I really wonder what exactly makes them worth it and as such would like to read some justification.
The topic leader asked for someone to do some grunt math work, and I am here to deliver.

I also used the "default spread" 248 HP/68 Def/88SpDef [Modest], and looked at how we match up against every prominent Fire and Ice type attacker in the metagame with and without Thick Fat.
Volkraken
252 SpA Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD CAP: 296-350 (72.3 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs
252 SpA Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Heatproof CAP: 150-176 (36.6 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Heatran
252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD CAP : 288-342 (70.4 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage
252+ SpA Heatran Inferno Overdrive (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD CAP: 518-612 (126.6 - 149.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs
252+ SpA Heatran Inferno Overdrive (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Thick Fat CAP: 260-308 (63.5 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Thick Fat CAP: 146-174 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and trapping damage


Celesteela
0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD CAP: 112-132 (27.3 - 32.2%) -- 57.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs
0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Thick Fat CAP: 56-68 (13.6 - 16.6%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery


Weavile:
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 68 Def CAP: 190-225 (46.4 - 55%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Thick Fat CAP: 96-114 (23.4 - 27.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery


Volcarona
252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD CAP: 296-350 (72.3 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs
252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Thick Fat CAP: 150-176 (36.6 - 43%) -- 97% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Zapdos
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD CAP: 134-158 (32.7 - 38.6%) -- 3.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Thick Fat CAP: 68-80 (16.6 - 19.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery


Smokomodo:
252 Atk Smokomodo Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 68 Def CAP: 350-414 (85.5 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
vs
252 Atk Smokomodo Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Thick Fat CAP: 174-206 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


On paper, this does do something - it turns some 2HKOs into 3HKOs, let's us live an Inferno Overdrive from 'Tran, and against 'weaker mons like Smokomodo and Weavile it goes even farther. Our matchup versus non-Firium Tran is actually now mostly positive. It also lets us just ignore defensive 'mons with Fire Coverage like Zapdos and Celesteela.

But do you notice anything these other 'mons have in common? Every single one carries other coverage or STAB that is incredibly potent against us! That means realistically speaking, our actual match-up versus these 'mons doesn't appreciably improve...

  • Volkraken has Water STAB to still threaten a 2HKO
  • CB Weavile's Knock Off threatens a 2HKO without needing his ice STAB.
  • Volcarona has set-up since it is isn't overly pressured by us and also can carry HP Ground.
  • Smokomodo can 2HKO us with Earthquake/Bulldoze if we no longer levitate.
That means all it lets us really do is always beat walls like Zapdos and Celesteela...instead of luring them in and checkmating them as designed.

Heatproof and Thick Fat would effectively not be competitive abilities and thus would be pointless on CAP 26. In the event the meta shifts and they are relevant, they are so in an arguably anti-concept and anti-design way. I think they should not be slated.
 
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