CAP 26 - Part 8 - Moveset Discussion

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Dogfish44

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Recycle Berry is clearly pro-concept because it's a move which doesn't have an immediate effect short term but can be powerful in the long term!

Moveset Submission

Name: Recycle
Move 1: Recycle
Move 2: Doom Desire
Move 3: Earth Power
Move 4: Toxic / Defog / Substitute
Ability: Levitate / Bulletproof
Item: Iapapa Berry
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 40 SpA / 88 SpD / 68 Spe
Nature: Modest

  • EV and Nature come from Jordy's sample because I'm a lazy git.
  • Recycle allows for Iapapa Berry to be reused many times in a match.
  • Earth Power for STAB, Toxic and Defog provide support. Substitute as a 'maybe' relating to shenanigans self-triggering Iapapa healing.

The above list is short because I imagine we don't need a ma-hoo-sive list every time we decide to discuss the validity of DD/EP... and by the end of this, Toxic and Defog as well, methinks. The move I actually want to focus on is Recycle here.

Obviously of the recovery moves which can provide instant returns, Recycle is the weakest and the least reliable - but on a Pokemon with bulk like CAP26, I think it has the potential to still be really quite powerful, hence this submission. We don't have Gluttony to abuse this with, but I can see CAP26 getting several heals out of Recycle fairly consistently, especially with some of the attacks we're potentially switching into merely scratching us. As workable around as this is (something like a 35% Hit onto CAP26 when it can't heal through Lefties is definitely plausible to KO it), and as much as I do think that this sort of Healing would give CAP26 more opportunities to hit things with Doom Desire, I want to make sure we test the water on 'is this too close to recovery options for us to risk, following the borkedness we've seen from the test server of regular recovery?'.

My 2c as I go collapse into my bed ^^;
 

Deck Knight

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Moveset Submission

Name: Destiny's Gate (Anti-Offense Fast Attacker)
Move 1: Destiny Bond
Move 2: Doom Desire
Move 3: Earth Power
Move 4: Pain Split / Toxic
Ability: Levitate
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 96 HP / 32 SpA / 252 SpD / 128 Spe [Pain Split] or 248 HP / 32 SpA / 100 SpD / 128 Spe [Toxic]
Nature: Calm (+SpD, -Atk)

- Destiny Bond forces a pinch situation against offense by requiring the opponent sac a threat or give 26 room to Doom Desire. If Doom Desire is already up, it can cause awkward inbetween turns that limit opposing options. Speed EVs allow you tp outspeed Mega Mawile (which outspeeds Arghonaut) allowing you to threaten a sacrifice pinch.
- Doom Desire nukes opponents in a few turns and is the endgame for our concept.
- Earth Power is a reliable STAB that prevents threats like Heatran coming in without consequence. It is EV'd to outspeed and OHKO Mega Mawile.
- Pain Split improves the longevity of the set, using heavy special defensive investment which allows it (through EVs alone + Leftovers) to avoid a 2HKO from Tapu Lele's focus blast 90+% of the time and always avoid the 2HKO from Rotom-W's Hydro Pump. Pain Split also has a unique interaction with Doom Desire, allowing you to split with an opponent and have Doom Desire finish with a KO.
- Toxic and a more traditional EV spread provide better physical bulk.
- EVs produce 369 HP which is a Leftovers+1 number along with maximum special bulk. Speed outruns Mega Mawile/Arghonaut, and the remainder placed in SpA to ensure the Earth Power OHKO.

I covered most of the essentials in the bullets. Basically a spread with a ton of Doom Desire interactions that can threaten a sac play with Destiny Bond or buffer against Sucker Punch vs Earth Power on Mega Mawile since the physical defense isn't emphasized as much.
 
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Moveset Submission

Name: Phat Assault Vest
Move 1: Doom Desire
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Dragon Tail
Move 4: Rapid Spin / Acid Spray / Hidden Power Fire
Ability: Levitate
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 52 SpA / 76 SpD / 68 Spe
Nature: Modest (+SpA, -Atk)
  • Ability Choice: I would suggest levitate over bulletproof, as bulletproof already negates the focus blasts that assault vest helps soften. As not many important matchups for 26 that involve foes using earth power, and levitate protects 26 from the ever prevalent earthquake while bulletproof and assault vest do not
  • Doom Desire and Earth Power powerful moves that are good for this CAP and provides a nice steel ground coverage and Doom Desire is a powerful and unique momentum bringer (no need for discussion really)
  • Dragon Tail a beautiful move that phazes out opposing threats and also prevents set up sweepers from taking advantage of 26 and setting up on it (if it already doesn't have a DD set up) or for pokémon such as celesteela or ferrothorn which can set up leech seed, or other hazards (however rapid spin can also solve this problem). And it gives 26 more opportunities to set up DD and can force out enemy pokémon who won't mind taking a DD, such as arghonaut or rotom wash
  • Rapid Spin, one of the few utility moves that an assault vest 26 can have. Which can help 26 provide further team support by getting rid of hazards and also prevents leech seed users from draining its health as this set doesn’t have any forms of self recovery, and is a deterrent against pokémon that like to set up hazards
  • Acid Spray an interesting alternative for rapid spin that can provide more pressure on walls, and make them question if they now can take a DD such as assault vest tangrowth, and if they decide to stay in to take the hit they take at least a huge chunk of damage
  • Hidden Power Fire is there for things like Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, or Celesteela if they are posing problems for your team
Conclusion: The assault vest set can provide more special bulk to an already bulky CAP 26 turning it into a sponge that can soak up more damage allowing it to unleash more Doom Desires. The assault vest does remove healing and utility moves such as defog, leech seed, pain split but it further strengthens matchups with magearna and mega zam. However, it is important to note that this set doesn't improve 26's physical defense for things like superpower, close combat, and flare blitz. I personally want to test this set out more to see some of the team options for this set.

Calcs: Given that it has assault vest I took a little Sp. def and put it into Sp. atk to maximize DD damage output (of course I only did this slightly as it was a test) however in practice this EV spread proved to be quite bulky and I was surprised to see the hits it could take. A true testament to its bulk is shown in these calcs against important CAP 26 matchups such as mega zam, lele, and heatran.
  • Mega Alakazam focus blast 252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Diglett-Alola: 178-210 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO here's the modest variant calcs here 252+ SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Diglett-Alola: 194-230 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO
  • Tapu Lele focus blast 252 SpA Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Diglett-Alola: 142-168 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO with all out pummeling 252 SpA Tapu Lele All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Diglett-Alola: 226-266 (55.5 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Modest variant calcs for focus blast and all out pummeling respectively 252+ SpA Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Diglett-Alola: 158-186 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO and 252+ SpA Tapu Lele All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Diglett-Alola: 248-292 (60.9 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • Magearna focus blast 184+ SpA Magearna Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Diglett-Alola: 148-176 (36.3 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO with a calm mind up (on magearna) +1 184+ SpA Magearna Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Diglett-Alola: 224-264 (55 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • Tornadus T focus blast 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Diglett-Alola: 126-150 (30.9 - 36.8%) -- 70.8% chance to 3HKO
  • Rotom Wash Hydro Pump 252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Diglett-Alola: 168-200 (41.2 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Hydro Vortex 252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Diglett-Alola: 284-336 (69.7 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • Heatran magma storm 252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Diglett-Alola: 194-230 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage Lava Plume 252+ SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Diglett-Alola: 156-186 (38.3 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 
Moveset Submission

Name: Leech Seed
Move 1: Doom Desire
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Leech Seed
Move 4: Protect / Toxic / Defog
Ability: Levitate
Item: Leftovers / Steelium Z
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 40 SpA / 88 SpD / 68 Spe
Nature: Modest
  • Doom Desire and Earth Power are our STABs.
  • Leech Seed is a form of recovery that can help CAP26 sustain itself throughout a match, especially when combined with Leftovers. Leech Seed is shown off in the replay here (I forgot to upload the replay but I had it downloaded, and the room expired whoops).
  • Protect allows CAP26 to accumulate recovery from Leech Seed, especially when used with Leftovers. Toxic is to handle passive Pokemon like Arghonaut and Rotom-Wash. Defog is role compression for the team, as CAP26 resists Stealth Rock and is immune to Spikes with Levitate.
  • Levitate is the optimal ability, as avoiding Spikes damage helps maintain CAP26's longevity, which is key when running Leech Seed.
  • Leftovers is the best option due to stacking with Leech Seed healing. Alternatively, Steelium Z can be run as a nuke to Pokemon immune to Leech Seed that are rather bulky, such as Jumbao and Clefable.
  • The EV spread is the standard spread attached with our stats.
Didn't spend too much time on established moves talked about elsewhere, I just wanted to focus on Leech Seed. Leech Seed is a move that most Pokemon usually do not want to stay in with, leading many Pokemon to switch out. This provides CAP26 an ample opportunity to Doom Desire. Alternatively, if you Doom Desire, you can Leech Seed as the foe is switching to get your recovery set up, letting you do other things the next turn. On a personal level, I like Leech Seed for being very useful both to CAP26 and to the team. G-Luke mentions in the replay that he sees Leech Seed as a distraction from clicking Doom Desire, however. I simply am opening the discussion up to people smarter than me to figure this out.
 
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Moveset Submission

Name: Phazard Master (Offensive Utility Pivot)
Move 1: Doom Desire
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Dragon Tail/Whirlwind
Move 4: Stealth Rock/Toxic
Ability: Levitate/Bulletproof
Item: Steelium Z/Wiki Berry
EVs: 200 HP/220 SpA/88 Spe
Nature: Modest
  • Doom Desire is the main Steel-type STAB move, principally in combination with phazing moves, and is the highlighted move in the concept of CAP 26.
  • Earth Power is a more reliable Ground-type STAB move and a good coverage move to DD.
  • Dragon Tail allows CAP 26 to phaze opposing Pokémon and ensures Fairy-types don't be phazed by mistake; Whirlwind have the same function but bypass Substitute, at the cost to be non-damage moves and to phaze Fairy-types too; Circle Throw is another option, but I don't like it in CAP 26, as it doesn't adds too much to CAP 26 and doesn't hit Ghost-types, and... hey, there is Dragon Tail!
  • Stealth Rock gives to CAP26's team a hazard move option and fits with phazing moves and DD; Toxic is another move option to cripple down the opposing team along the match.
  • Levitate is the preferred ability as gives to CAP 26 Ground immunity; Bulletproof can be used to provide CAP 26 with a more situational Focus Blast immunity.
  • Steelium Z in combination with DD gives to CAP 26 a powerful 200 BP Corkscrew Crash; Wiki Berry provides CAP 26 with a reliable, one-shot 50% recovery.
  • 88 Spe EVs enables CAP 26 outspeeds Mega Mawile with 164 Spe EVs and CM Split Magearna with little Speed investment; 220 SpA EVs + Modest nature ensures Earth Power 2HKO Tapu Lele and +1 CM Split Magearna, and Doom Desire OHKO max HP Bulky Tornadus-T with rocks up; 200 EVs remaining go in HP for max bulky and allow CAP 26 survives one Heatran's Magma Storm.
This set is focused in CAP26's offensive and phazing capabilities, using the damage output of Doom Desire/Earth Power and chip damage of phazing move and rocks/Toxic to support its teammates, gradually crippling down the opposing team on early-game to ease sweepers to break through on late-game.
 

G-Luke

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We have had some decent sets suggested, so I will now take the time to go over some in detail.

Moveset Submission

Name: Jacked Up Doom Desire
Move 1: Work Up / Metal Sound
Move 2: Doom Desire
Move 3: Earth Power
Move 4: Toxic / Protect / Defog
Ability: Levitate
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 40 SpA / 88 SpD / 68 Spe
Nature: Modest
It is a pretty standard set that utilizes Doom Desire well, but instead of an extra utility slot, it goes for a Set Up / Debuff option in Work Up and Metal Sound. While Work Up is well documented in battle, Metal Sound is not, and it would be interesting to see play out. On paper it pairs extremely well with Doom Desire, pushing Checkmate scenarios to its upper limit, but i am concerned about its interactions with our C&C, specifically with Arghonaut. Can you provide some replays on how good Metal Sound actually is?

Moveset Submission

Name: Uh oh what happened to Doom Desire Mk. 1
Move 1: U-turn / Volt Switch
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Toxic
Move 4: Defog / Protect
Ability: Levitate
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 40 SpA / 88 SpD / 68 Spe
Nature: Modest
This set is clearly trying to suggest how bad pivoting moves are for our concepts. Now i know that you have been clamoring for their ban for awhile now, but I definitely need to see how useful U-turn over Doom Desire is, and can it effectively supplant Doom Desire. I really need to see replays of this. This should also go for any future sets wishing to approve of U-turn / Volt Switch, as I want to see how much these moves actually compete against each other.

Name: DOOOM (Bulky Attacker)
Move 1: Doom Desire
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Circle Throw / Dragon Tail
Move 4: Rapid Spin / Defog
Ability: Levitate
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Sassy
Seems like a typical defensive set, which capitalizes on phazing while doubling as a role compressor. What I want to criticize is the choice between Circle Throw versus Dragon Tail. I think the main highlight of Dragon Tail is that it prevents fairies from switching in on the last phazing turn, which would otherwise guarantee that are not hit by Doom Desire on that turn. So I am not really feeling Circle Throw, as not phazing out Necturna may prove troublesome. What I want to discuss is the Rapid Spin vs Defog debate. Which is better for CAP 26? I'd like to see this argument be put to rest.

Moveset Submission

Name: Recycle
Move 1: Recycle
Move 2: Doom Desire
Move 3: Earth Power
Move 4: Toxic / Defog / Substitute
Ability: Levitate / Bulletproof
Item: Iapapa Berry
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 40 SpA / 88 SpD / 68 Spe
Nature: Modest
Pretty alright set overall. Recycle proves a decent way to gain recovery in combination with berries, if not a bit lackluster with the absence of Gluttony as an ability. I would approve, but I want to see the argument on Defog vs Rapid Spin resolved first.

Moveset Submission

Name: Destiny's Gate (Anti-Offense Fast Attacker)
Move 1: Destiny Bond
Move 2: Doom Desire
Move 3: Earth Power
Move 4: Pain Split / Toxic
Ability: Levitate
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 96 HP / 32 SpA / 252 SpD / 128 Spe [Pain Split] or 248 HP / 32 SpA / 100 SpD / 128 Spe [Toxic]
Nature: Calm (+SpD, -Atk)
Surprisingly, Deck Knight does not suggest a controversial moveset. Pain Split has been talked about in the past, but only as a passing mention. I, however, believe that Pain Split is most likely the only decent recovery option that CAP 26 will able to utilize without either pushing out Doom Desire, or being an overall overbearing presence thanks to our rather naturally high HP stat. Now onto the main crux of the set - Destiny Bond. Destiny Bond is an attack that will not overly impact much matchups in anyway, especially with our lower speed tier. It provides a cheeky way to put pressure in check mate situations without being overbearing. Consider it approved.

Moveset Submission

Name: Phat Assault Vest
Move 1: Doom Desire
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Dragon Tail
Move 4: Rapid Spin / Acid Spray / Hidden Power Fire
Ability: Levitate
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 52 SpA / 76 SpD / 68 Spe
Nature: Modest (+SpA, -Atk)
Assault Vest allows us to take full advantage of our great bulk and difficulty to chip CAP 26 with indirect damage and give us a consistent tank that can eat hits from the tier's strongest special attackers and retaliate in kind. Dragon Tail as I mentioned has great synergy with Doom Desire. What I want to tackle is specifically Acid Spray. Acid Spray on an AV phazing set directly competes with moves that generally offer much better utility, such as Dragon Tail and Rapid Spin or decent coverage like HP Fire. I would like to see some battles where Acid Spray actively plays a role.

Moveset Submission

Name: Leech Seed
Move 1: Doom Desire
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Leech Seed
Move 4: Protect / Toxic / Defog
Ability: Levitate
Item: Leftovers / Steelium Z
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 40 SpA / 88 SpD / 68 Spe
Nature: Modest
Well laid out post. But Leech Seed man... Leech Seed is a very controversial move, and for good reason, as it gives us a spammable move that allows us to whittle down our checks and counters while also competing with Doom Desire. My big gripe with Leech Seed is that it draws attention away from Doom Desire. For these reasons, i'm denying this set, and adding Leech Seed to the list of disallowed moves.

Moveset Submission

Name: Phazard Master (Offensive Utility Pivot)
Move 1: Doom Desire
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Dragon Tail/Whirlwind
Move 4: Stealth Rock/Toxic
Ability: Levitate/Bulletproof
Item: Steelium Z/Wiki Berry
EVs: 200 HP/220 SpA/88 Spe
Nature: Modest
This set is the first set to highlight Stealth Rock over every other set which featured hazard removal instead, so I would like for you to talk about why Stealth Rock is a better option over Hazard Removal, as CAP 26 won't be getting both.
 

GMars

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What I want to discuss is the Rapid Spin vs Defog debate. Which is better for CAP 26? I'd like to see this argument be put to rest.
I've seen a lot of concern on Discord because CAP has given 8 mons Rapid Spin and it hasn't seen much use on several of them. Why is this? It's an issue of role:

Caribolt - Caribolt functions as a sweeper and doesn't have the room to fit Rapid Spin between setup, dual STAB coverage, and priority. It doesn't have the typing or the bulk to come in and handle hazard removal for its teammates.
Malaconda - Very niche mon, so its moveset ends up being entirely dedicated to that niche (Glare, Recovery, and either Sucker Punch + Pursuit or U-turn) rather than tacking on spin for utility.
Necturna - Necturna needs its moveslots to end a game with a sweep, its role isn't conducive to hazard removal at all, rather relying on its team to provide that support much earlier on.
Colossoil - As a breaker, it doesn't have room for hazard removal in place of coverage or priority.
Snaelstrom - Too weak to hazards to act as a remover without recovery.
Mollux - Sometimes techs Rapid Spin but suffers from hazard weakness and a poor matchup vs a lot of hazard setters.
Tomohawk - Has the choice to slot Spin because of Tomo's good matchup vs hazard setters, though it competes with the niche of priority Haze.
Fidgit - This runs Spin as a Trick Room setter with Iapapa Berry so it can provide support mid-game.

Rapid Spin is absolutely phenomenal on CAP 26 because its role is already suited towards hazard removal as an extremely hazard-resistant pivot. Compared to Defog, Rapid Spin enables Assault Vest sets, has the PP to outlast a hazard in a drawn-out fight, and maintains your own hazards to help the theme of wearing down the opponent and putting them in hard situations that Doom Desire brings to the table in practice. Rapid Spin is a good move, the reason why it doesn't see use on a number of the mons it's been given to is because their roles aren't suited to hazard removal. The only real issue with Rapid Spin is getting chipped against Ferrothorn, but given it's already been decided as a check to us I consider it a non-issue or even a benefit of selecting Rapid Spin as the option over Defog.
 

quziel

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Somehow noone has mentioned this set yet:

Name: Protox
Move 1: Doom Desire
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Protect / Spiky Shield
Move 4: Toxic
Ability: Levitate/Bulletproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 40 SpA / 88 SpD / 68 Spe
Nature: Modest

Fairly simple set; engage recovery through the wonders of protect + leftovers, and use protect to stall for Doom Desire hits, and Toxic damage. This directly benefits Doom Desire, as it can let us get Doom Desire hits that might not otherwise be possible, or otherwise might require sacrificing CAP 26, scout for choiced opponents, allowing us to provide better team support, and protect prevents u-turn from successfully being used, which can help "trap" opponents. Spiky Shield is merely mentioned as a stronger version of protect that dissuades U-turn usage (one of the better options available to opponents vs Doom Desire), and again helps the concept by stopping the opponent from playing against Doom Desire as easily. Don't really have any calcs, as this set isn't running any unique attacks, but in terms of matchups this affects, Tornadus-Therian has a notably more annoying time against us, as it cannot easily u-turn out the turn Doom Desire is due to hit, Tapu Koko (to a lesser extent, the most popular set runs Volt) faces similar issues, and choiced attackers such as Volkraken and Kitsunoh (though unsure why anyone would want to have kitty in vs 26), and Toxic vulnerable foes (Argh, Torn-T) all are impacted by this set.

The choice of Spiky Shield vs Protect impacts the following matchups: Tornadus-Therian (slightly better vs Knock Off and U-turn), Smokomodo (greater chip on Flareblitz, still a pressure matchup), Ferrothorn (still a mutual pressure relationship), and other U-turn users and physical attackers. I personally believe that Spiky Shield could be very useful to shift the balance between U-turn and a pure switch, and thus help 26 enforce lose-lose situations to the best of its abilities.
 
Moveset Submission

Name: Perish Song
Move 1: Perish Song
Move 2: Doom Desire
Move 3: Earth Power
Move 4: Toxic / Healing Wish
Ability: Levitate / Bulletproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Nature: Modest

  • Dual STABs because thats how we do
  • Perish Song has nice interactions with Doom Desire- like phazing it can force switches, as well as punish mons that attempt to boost up with calm minds or quiver dances before a DD hits them.
  • Im not sure about EVs or nature yet.
So I believe the way Perish Song works is as follows: If you perish song turn 1 and doom desire turn 2, the turn that perish song runs out will be the same turn doom desire hits. This means that switchins that check you but cant pose a huge immediate threat to you (for instance Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn, Celesteela, Bronzong, or some Arghonaut) will be forced to switch out if they switched in on the Perish Song, giving you a hit on a target less able to tank it. If they decide to switch out as you Doom Desire, this allows you to run their team through additional hazards as well as force another switch back in 2 turns.

The other benefit of Perish Song is that it stops mons from boosting alongside Doom Desire- examples being Magearna, and Aurumoth- we could potentially check them with typing alone, but its not always the case. It would feel good to be able to at least beat them 1 on 1 reliably, which isnt always the case right now. Other mons that it can repel in such a way would include boosting Scizor, and Mega Alakazam. It doesnt necessarily mess with the checklist because it doesnt beat these mons- it allows another method of letting Doom Desire hit the rest of their team. Whats nice about the Perish Song over Dtail and Roar is that it can win in last-mon situations, and some of these mons like Mag or Scizor can be pushed out all game and win as a last mon standing. Another reason is because it doesnt require you to stay in for the full duration of DD- you get to switch out a turn earlier, which can preserve more hp and give you an actual chance to land the important DD instead of simply feeling forced out before that crucial turn that DD actually lands- which in mons can actually be pretty hard to wait for. It may also mean you can drop Protect for another move if you feel like it.

Ive tacked Healing Wish onto the end of this set, because I think it deserves a quick mention. Its very pro-concept, allowing in a wallbreaker safely to hit alongside Doom Desire for an unblockable two-pronged attack. It works better for the concept than Memento, which encourges the mon that comes in for free to click a setup move rather than attack alongside DD. Which is not only non-synergistic to the concept, but kinda foolish when a common switchin will be Arghonaut who is Unaware.

This is a niche set idea, but I wanted to submit something with relevance to Doom Desire. thx for reading I dont have any calcs cus the main interaction doesnt need calcs and the EVs and nature are mostly guesswork/can be replaced with anything
 
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G-Luke

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Moveset Submission

Name: Perish Song
Move 1: Perish Song
Move 2: Doom Desire
Move 3: Earth Power
Move 4: Toxic / Healing Wish
Ability: Levitate / Bulletproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Nature: Modest
It is essentially a worse version of phazing. It isn't doing any harm, so I'll approve this.

Edit: Apparently, I missed Healing Wish on this set. Pip can you look back at Healing Wish and showcase how CAP 26 can utilize this with replays? Also, a general question for users and potential submitters, what thoughts do you have on Healing Wish and other self sacrificial moves such as Memento and Explosion? How well do these moves pair with Doom Desire, and how well can CAP 26 utilize the moves in general?

Name: Protox
Move 1: Doom Desire
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Protect / Spiky Shield
Move 4: Toxic
Ability: Levitate/Bulletproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 40 SpA / 88 SpD / 68 Spe
Nature: Modest
The bread and butter set. I think that this is the most discussed variant of CAP 26, with Toxic combining with Doom Desire to put Pokemon on a timer. Spiky Shield is an interesting addition, chipping users of contact moves, such as Tornadus-T's Knock Off, and placing the even further down DD KO range. Gets the seal of approval from me.

In addition to this, I have decided to ultimately go with Rapid Spin over Defog,
With strong points such as enabling AV sets to still provide utility, taking advantage of the very empty niche of a good rapid spinner instead of competing with other defoggers and it having better counter measures. So all sets with Defog should make the switch over to Rapid Spin in edits. The sets that I have put on hold specifically for this will be approved as well.
 
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This set is the first set to highlight Stealth Rock over every other set which featured hazard removal instead, so I would like for you to talk about why Stealth Rock is a better option over Hazard Removal, as CAP 26 won't be getting both.
Well, as everyone knows, our idea for the CAP26's concept was that of a delayed move/Doom Desire pivot. With that in mind, my idea was a set that would allow 26 to make use of Doom Desire's max offensive power and its ability to force switch out pokémon to give momentum to its team. So it came to my mind the Doom Desire + phazing set, which can be incredibly successful (ask Slowking). On the other hand, I did not want to turn 26 into a Slowking's copy and wanted to give it a way phazing more effectively, so the idea of putting entry hazard on the set came up, as it fits in perfectly with phazing (checks Arghonaut). While (Toxic)Spikes are banned (for clear reasons), Stealth Rock is the perfect option for 26, giving it a consistent passive damage option. Unlike Spikes, Stealth Rock requires a single turn to be effectively used and encourages the use of DD and phazing to force pokémon out, further pressuring the opposing team. You can wondering: But can 26 really handle all of this? And I tell you: Yes, it can, a great typing, great stats, two amazing abilities and the right spread are more than enough for 26 play this role with mastery, just like an ancient killing machine awakening after centuries just to spread the suffer, the death and the chaos among your enemies.

Now, if you have read up to this point but you haven't done or changed your mind about the Stealth Rock's effectiveness over hazard removal, I have one more thing to tell you: What does hazard removal do for CAP 26 at all? Oh yeah, it's a great utility, especially for a bulky pivot like 26. But there are already countless pokémon who do this very well, maybe better than 26 will ever do, so I ask you: What does 26 have to offer that stands out above all others? As GMars has showed off, access to hazard removal doesn't do a good hazard control. Furthermore, mostly times, you may rather to clean hazards than click Doom Desire and end up causing 26 to move from a Doom Desire pivot with hazard removal to a hazard control pivot with Doom Desire. So I ask you one more time: Is hazard removal really more effective than Stealth Rock in the 26's moveset? And, can 26 really be both a hazard control and a Doom Desire pivot? C'mon guys, Stealth Rock can really bright in 26's moveset but hazard removal? I don't think so.

But anyway, these are my thoughts about "Hazard Removal x Stealth Rock" question. May the odds be ever in your favor, guys.
 

snake_rattler

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I have to disagree with a lot of points on your post.

But there are already countless pokémon who do this very well, maybe better than 26 will ever do, so I ask you: What does 26 have to offer that stands out above all others?
Well, we have a stunning choice of 3 viable hazard removers in the current metagame (remember, we build for the current metagame) - namely Tornadus-T, Rotom-W, and Tapu Fini. Kitsunoh and Excadrill run their respective hazard control options, but they are almost always consistent enough to rely solely on them. Thus, "countless" is a bit of an overstatement - I count 3 (or generously 5).

CAP26 has a great matchup against some key Stealth Rock setters in the metagame - namely Mega Diancie, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Mega Crucibelle, and Mega Tyranitar. Even more niche Stealth Rock setters like Fidgit and Clefable have horrendous matchups against CAP26. Furthermore, it's hard for Heatran, the last common Stealth Rock setter I haven't listed, to come in safely against CAP26 due to the looming threat of Earth Power, so it's hard for Heatran to keep up Stealth Rock also, especially if CAP26 is healthy. Our resident Spikes setters - Ferrothorn, Arghonaut, and Greninja - admittedly have better matchups against CAP26, but CAP26 is free to switch into these Spikes with Levitate, Earth Power smacks up Greninja, and a lot of sets have Toxic to cripple Arghonaut.

On the other hand, the current Defoggers stand toe-to-toe with the Stealth Rock setters in the metagame. SR setters have, naturally, evolved to ward of Tornadus-T, which has been the most consistent hazard remover since USUM - we have 3 Rock-type Mega Pokemon (resist Hurricane and don't care about Knock Off), Garchomp (which runs Stone Edge), and Heatran (which resists Hurricane and usually carries a Z-Crystal). Rotom-W and Tapu Fini, on the other hand, are rather easy to chip down, meaning that they must be played well to stand up to these hazard setters. This isn't to say that these hazard removers are not effective - they are the premier hazard removers in the metagame, but CAP26 has some clear advantages over them.

Finally, the maximum amount of chip damage that Levitate CAP26 can take from hazards is 3% damage from Stealth Rock. Compared to Tornadus-T, which takes 25%, Rotom-W, which takes 12%, and Tapu Fini, who is vulnerable to all hazards.

So, what does CAP26 have that stands out above all the other 3 hazard setters in the metagame? Excellent matchups against metagame Stealth Rock setters, passable matchups against a couple of the Spikes setters, and resistance/immunity to most hazards. CAP26 can definitely act as a great hazard remover.

Now, if you have read up to this point but you haven't done or changed your mind about the Stealth Rock's effectiveness over hazard removal, I have one more thing to tell you: What does hazard removal do for CAP 26 at all?
What hazard removal does for CAP26 is threefold:

1) It ensures CAP26 has utility that it will use multiple times throughout the match that doesn't compete with Doom Desire.
2) It throws off the opposing team's tempo by pressuring opposing Stealth Rock setters from putting the hazards back up for a few crucial turns later with Doom Desire and Earth Power
3) It means CAP26's teammates can get in more easily.

What hazard removal does for CAP26 is solidify the idea of a pivot. Rapid Spin ensures that CAP26 will be pivoting in and out over the course of a match. Hazard removal is used more times than setting Stealth Rock, due to the omnipresence of Spikes in the current metagame, and even so, Rapid Spin is a reactive utility move, which, as we have established in this thread, is a better sort of utility move to use than a proactive utility move such as Stealth Rock.

Furthermore, CAP26 can place pressure on the opposing team with Doom Desire, use that pressure to get a Rapid Spin off, and, in particulary, continue to use that pressure to keep Stealth Rock off - Mega Diancie, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Mega Crucibelle, and Mega Tyranitar don't want to switch into Doom Desire and don't really want to switch in the turn before Doom Desire either due to it hitting the next turn. Furthermore, Heatran is terrified of being eviscerated by Earth Power.

Now, we've championed Doom Desire as a move that you "checkmate" the opponent into by switching to a teammate. Well, I think it makes sense that Pokemon that has a phenomonal set of traits by typing and ability to remove hazards should be able to exert that sort of hazard control, so that its teammates can get in more easily. CAP26 can get rid of the Spikes that wear down Mega Mawile and Mega Medicham, the Stealth Rock that plagues Choice Scarf Volkraken and Aurumoth, and the Toxic Spikes that cripple Arghonaut and Tangrowth.

Unlike Spikes, Stealth Rock requires a single turn to be effectively used and encourages the use of DD and phazing to force pokémon out, further pressuring the opposing team. You can wondering: But can 26 really handle all of this? And I tell you: Yes, it can, a great typing, great stats, two amazing abilities and the right spread are more than enough for 26 play this role with mastery, just like an ancient killing machine awakening after centuries just to spread the suffer, the death and the chaos among your enemies.
Unlike Rapid Spin, which CAP26 should run on itself because then it can immediately switch to a teammate before those pesky hazards go back up again, hazards don't need to be set by CAP26 itself to lay down the pressure with Doom Desire and phazing. That can be done with other hazard setters in the metagame - you can let the hazards stay for a couple turns and position CAP26 into a position to start phazing. But CAP26 to set Stealth Rock itself to use shuffling effectively? That's not necessary.

Furthermore, CAP26 doesn't have good matchups with opposing hazard removers. CAP26 does pressure Tornadus-T with Doom Desire, but Tornadus-T can use Knock Off and get rid of CAP26's precious Leftovers - which it really needs since 50% recovery and Leech Seed are now banned. Tapu Fini now runs Scald, which can inflict a burn (negates Leftovers) against Levitate CAP26, and while it's just a 3HKO, CAP26 doesn't have an especially good matchup against it. CAP26 is barely able to eat 2 Rotom-W Hydro Pumps with the Jordy's sample EV spread. With no good recovery, that's a losing matchup, especially considering CAP26's best retaliation is Toxic. This means CAP26 would face a similar problem Snaelstrom has with setting up hazards - it just can't keep them up well against the good hazard removers, which means that I don't think CAP26 can really play the Stealth Rock-setting role all that well.

So it came to my mind the Doom Desire + phazing set, which can be incredibly successful (ask Slowking). On the other hand, I did not want to turn 26 into a Slowking's copy and wanted to give it a way phazing more effectively, so the idea of putting entry hazard on the set came up, as it fits in perfectly with phazing (checks Arghonaut).
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about turning into a copy of Slowking. We're learning about delayed damaging moves for a very different metagame (an OU-based metagame vs. NU) - taking a different approach than most people assumed we would (i.e. Regenerator + extensive coverage would be required to use the delayed moves effectively). At the very least, I don't think Stealth Rock really changes how similar we are to Slowking at this point - I think we've distinguished CAP26 from Slowking at this point.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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Seems like a typical defensive set, which capitalizes on phazing while doubling as a role compressor. What I want to criticize is the choice between Circle Throw versus Dragon Tail. I think the main highlight of Dragon Tail is that it prevents fairies from switching in on the last phazing turn, which would otherwise guarantee that are not hit by Doom Desire on that turn. So I am not really feeling Circle Throw, as not phazing out Necturna may prove troublesome. What I want to discuss is the Rapid Spin vs Defog debate. Which is better for CAP 26? I'd like to see this argument be put to rest.
I concede that the choice of phazing moves was incorrect, as I did not fully consider the benefits of each at the time. Dragon Tail is in more ways the superior move due to the above mention of Fairy-type mindgames as well as hitting Necturna, and should be the primary of the set. Circle Throw the more I think about it is a less optimal move overall, and I plan to go back and edit the set to reflect. However, an option that generally keeps phazing up is also Roar, which trades damage for consistency and being able to hit past Substitute, is also a possible option that might be added.

As for the Rapid Spin vs Defog argument, GMars mostly hit the points. Rapid Spin is a move that works phenomenally with our typing and stats as well as gameplan, and it is likely to see usage because of it. However, I would also like to address an argument that some have brought up on Discord: spinblocking.

It is true that Defog is very consistent in terms of its hazard removal and Rapid Spin is subject to spinblocking from Ghost-types, however I also consider it a positive in the case of CAP 26. Spinblocking is actually a way for us to bring Pokemon in who are susceptible to a possible Doom Desire, meaning that a Turn 3 scenario can be created: Stay/Switch in and take a load from Doom Desire, but prevent the hazards from being spun away, our let a Pokemon take a Doom Desire better but lose the hazards. Kitsunoh is the exception that trumps both bad scenarios by switching in due to typing, but also doesn't want to switch in most time due to the fear of eating an Earth Power. With this in mind I would argue that this move become far safer to use consistently and much harder to spinblock, while still supporting the main move Doom Desire.
 
I don't have the time or skill to write up a set, but how would Sticky Web interact? We want to force situations where opponents find it undesirable to switch in to Doom Desire and with Sticky Web up further penalising them, this should help with the roll of pivoting out to provide safer switch ins for our other team mates.

Of course, this is all a part of the the discussion in whether Hazards other than DD pseudo hazard is on the table or not.
 

Bughouse

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I think Rapid Spin is an incredibly dangerous move that can distract from Doom Desire. I could easily see a simple set of Earth Power / Rapid Spin / Toxic / Protect being used, not to mention if it gets any even half useful recovery moves. This set gets so many chances to spin due to Levitate and its bulk. Heck it can spin in the mirror match up due to levitate.

Defog has a negative consequence of resetting ALL hazards, while Rapid Spin is only beneficial.

In addition, CAP 26 is more able to be blocked from removing hazards by Taunt than ghost types anyway, since they’re all offensively pressured and won’t always be able to switch in.

Defog will be much more balanced here.
 

G-Luke

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I think Rapid Spin is an incredibly dangerous move that can distract from Doom Desire. I could easily see a simple set of Earth Power / Rapid Spin / Toxic / Protect being used, not to mention if it gets any even half useful recovery moves. This set gets so many chances to spin due to Levitate and its bulk. Heck it can spin in the mirror match up due to levitate.

Defog has a negative consequence of resetting ALL hazards, while Rapid Spin is only beneficial.

In addition, CAP 26 is more able to be blocked from removing hazards by Taunt than ghost types anyway, since they’re all offensively pressured and won’t always be able to switch in.

Defog will be much more balanced here.
Most of these points can already be made for Defog as well, and it has already been discussed and tested in battle that hazard removal is not only beneficial but won't compete with Doom Desire. Besides, running the suggested set would leave it prone to be beaten by several Pokémon that Doom desire allows us to place in awkward situations, such as Jumbao, Clefable, Tornadus-T and Landorus-T (+2 Skystrike has a strong chance to OHKO and Gravity sets beat it with little consequence), therefore that would be quite unoptimal.

Also, 50% recovery moves have already been banned due to the difficulty in wearing down CAP 26 throughout a match.
 

Dogfish44

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Gonna object to Spiky Shield getting essentially a free pass to approval here, especially since it essentially got no discussion.

It's a strict upgrade to Protect, but I don't think it's been well established why that's particularly useful for CAP26, beyond 'chip', which doesn't feel a major conceptual element. I mean, I want to avoid every CAP getting one of Baneful Bunker / Spiky Shield on a whim regardless, but I think Protect does just as good a job at making U-Turn risky if that's a method of enforcing Lose-Loses we want as an option. Are there particular calculations where Spiky Shield makes Doom Desire able to KO a target that would normally not be feasible to KO, or is it just an upgrade to general viability on a Mon that kind of already has a decent amount of that? ^^;
 

snake_rattler

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Spiky Shield is an interesting addition, chipping users of contact moves, such as Tornadus-T's Knock Off, and placing the even further down DD KO range. Gets the seal of approval from me.
Echoing what Dogfish has said. I'm pretty certain that Protect is sufficient for what CAP26 needs to do - delaying out those Doom Desire turns. I'm not convinced that CAP26 really needs the extra anti-offense tool. Doom Desire already makes running hyper offense a headache, it already blocks Volt Switch by virtue of typing, and it's not exactly easy to chip down either. Do we really need Spiky Shield's chip damage? It might not look like it makes that much of a difference, but when Doom Desire stalling + Toxic stalling + Leftovers recovery is augmented by having it on your moveset, that chip damage will add up quickly, especially since CAP26 will be immune to Earthquake, an extremely common non-contact move. Do we really need to chip down Tornadus-T that's trying to U-turn or Knock Off when it's already pressured by Doom Desire? Do we really need to punish Brick Break / Fire Fang Mega Mawile, Fire Fang Garchomp, and Fire Punch Tyranitar even more? I think Protect is sufficient in what CAP26 wants to accomplish - the chip damage is unnecessary.

In any case, I definitely think that Spiky Shield hasn't gotten the discussion it deserves, so it should be a pending move for now.
 

Deck Knight

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Also going to weigh in against Spiky Shield. When we were discussing whether Snaelstrom needed an upgrade to Protect, the ability to enhance chip on a defensive Pokemon very vulnerable to Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Volt Switch, and U-turn pivoting to an extent was a fair consideration. For Snaelstrom, Spiky Shield provided a less passive way for it to capitalize on its ability while still keeping its defensive niche.

CAP 26 has none of these concerns. It's as close to immune to hazards as you can get without MGuard or Regenerator, and while it does hate Knock Off to an extent, it can still switch into rocks 24 times if it loses 25% of its health to a Knock Off. Since Pain Split has been approved it's probably more if you can play it well.

Moreover CAP26's niche is more offensive and at 133 SpA it doesn't need a chip damage buff. Protect perfectly serves the purpose of scouting and delaying turns to maximize Doom Desire's effectiveness. CAP26 doesn't need a "Protect+" bonus to make it a viable set option.
 
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While I'm not specifically opposed to Spiky Shield, I just want to echo what snake and Dogfish44 have said regarding a lack of discussion. I think based on what others have said it seems that there are some strong reasons to not allow it, and it would be great to see some specific reasons why we should have it more than just it achieves what we want (Protect) plus some extra benefits.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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Echoing all of the above on Spiky Shield, it is an option that got little to no discussion and got automatically approved. Snake and Deck already got most of it so I'll keep my thoughts short.

Spiky Shield is a move that could be argued for any defensively oriented mon, as could baneful bunker but it only give normal poison and not Toxic, as it is an objectively better form of Protect. This thread has already shown a great deal of the benefits of chip damage for CAP 26, but do we honestly need Spiky Shield to deal an extra 12% when they already have to deal with hazards, Toxic, a mon that commonly has three immunities, and a big Steel attack coming at the end of the turn? Spiky Shield is a move that needs very specific reasoning as to how it helps fulfill this role and how it is not just adding for the sake of adding over its just a better protect.

There's also the fact that only 5 mons and a prevo get it in the real game so we shouldn't be handing it out like candy but this is cap and we don't care about flavor reasons.
 
I’m not decidedly in favor of Spiky Shield on CAP26, (and I’m relatively new so I’m probably not going to make any more posts this stage) but since this isn’t a very metagame-specific issue I think i’ll get the ball rolling for pro Spiky Shield posts.

The most compelling argument for is the answer to this question, stated earlier.

1.) What moves promote the usage of and/or compliment the attack Doom Desire, and enhance its overall effectiveness?

We want to include moves that answer this question because doing so helps to actualize our concept. The problem, however, is that there just aren’t that many moves that directly promote Doom Desire. There are many moves that detract from its usage likelihood by competing directly (Flash Cannon, any coverage) or that risk increasing 4MSS for the sake of greater viability and team support (Rapid Spin), but so far in our discussion only phasing moves (Dragon Tail) directly promote Doom Desire. Doom Desire becomes even more effective when on a set with Protect/protect+ moves, just as with phasing moves. By having moves that make Doom Desire specifically work better, we increase the odds of Doom Desire making it into competitive sets. So if we are going to build an entire CAP around showcasing delayed attack moves in the meta game, it would be strange not to include one of the few categories of moves that actively promotes Doom Desire.

Now, the simplest response to this is that CAP26 is already practically guaranteed Protect. Protect, however, is seen only rarely due to its high opportunity cost when competing with moves like Rapid Spin, or equally because it is a move that offers minimal advantages (generally just a turn of leftovers, if leftovers are ran) that are highly punishable with good prediction. By including Spiky Shield, we make the reward more worth the risk, making opportunity cost less of an issue.

In sum, if you want CAP26 to better answer our first question, then it makes sense to include Spiky Shield; that is the argument for. There are some good counterpoints to be made, but I’ll allow someone more qualified than myself to address them.
 

Deck Knight

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We've had a lot of focus on one move, there's one more I think merits discussion:

Moveset Submission
Name: Cleric of Doom (Team Support)
Move 1: Doom Desire
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Toxic / Whirlwind / Rapid Spin
Move 4: Heal Bell
Ability: Levitate
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 40 SpA / 88 SpD / 68 Spe
Nature: Modest

- Doom Desire is the core of the concept and can set up a desirable pressure situation.
- Earth Power keeps Mega Mawile, Heatran, Smokomodo, and many other potential threats away.
- Toxic can apply pressure to incoming defensive threats like Arghonaut and Rotom-W who otherwise give CAP trouble, Whirlwind is never-miss phaze option that can also remove opponents setting up Sub to avoid Doom Desire, Rapid Spin can repel hazards.
- Heal Bell slides into the fourth slot as another reactive utility move to assist teammates. It has different utility combined with each move in the third slot, with Toxic allowing the set to spread status while healing status from your team, Whirlwind's reliable phaze can give you a favorable matchup to use Heal Bell in an emergency, and Heal Bell combined with Rapid Spin, while very reactive, uses CAP's incredible effectiveness as a hazard-resistant, and Thunder Wave immune pivot to become a panacea to slower, more disruptive teams.

There is, I suppose, one more set that needs to be considered for the purpose of completeness.

Moveset Submission
Name: Swift Justice / Swift Impact (Choice Scarf)
Move 1: Doom Desire
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
Move 4: Aura Sphere / Memento / Healing Wish
Ability: Levitate
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

- This is a Scarf set. At Max Spe Timid CAP 26 has 360 Speed, allowing it to outrun all opponents with 113 Base Spe (Serperior) or less. This lets CAP26 get the drop on non-Scarf Kitsunoh, drop a Doom Desire before getting hit by a Lati Surf, etc.
- Doom Desire is useful here as a quick pivot-in / pivot-out maneuver that can catch opponents off guard if their initial reaction is a switch. This will avoid giving away CAP 26's set and allow it to set one last Doom Desire in a pinch if the opponent believes 26 is using one of its traditional sets.
- Earth Power is very potent with max SpA investment and easily OHKOs threats that would ordinarily get the speed advantage.
- Hidden Power Ice provides a super-effective coverage attack for the many 4x Ice weak Pokemon in CAP like Garchomp, Landorus-T, and the occasional Gliscor, whereas Hidden Power Fire is useful for CAP 26 against Ferrothorn (2HKO), Mega Scizor, and the mirror match.
- Aura Sphere is an ideal middle ground special attack that helps in the mirror match (except against Bulletproof where you can use Earth Power instead), still addresses Ferrothorn somewhat (3HKOs),2HKOs Heatran and Mega-Tyranitar and can KO Greninja switchins most of the time, but only if Stealth Rock is down. I think a few calcs will help justify this:

252 SpA CAP 26 Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja-Ash: 236-278 (82.8 - 97.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA CAP 26 Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 170-200 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA CAP 26 Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 118-140 (33.5 - 39.7%) -- 86.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Excadrill Aura Sphere vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 204-244 (53.2 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA CAP 26 Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD CAP 26: 144-170 (35.3 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Aura Sphere can't overwhelm counters, still threatens checks, and basically serves as the "safe option" compared to Hidden Power or Earth Power in the same scenarios. While it does enable All-Out Pummeling, that also does not have much potential to overwhelm.

252+ SpA Excadrill All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja-Ash: 514-606 (180.3 - 212.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock [Ash-Gren w/ Modest]
252+ SpA Excadrill All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 372-438 (115.1 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock [Heatran w/ Modest]
252+ SpA Excadrill All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 258-304 (73.2 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery [Ferro w/ Modest]
252+ SpA Excadrill All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 448-528 (116.9 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Ex: 252+ SpA CAP 26 All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD CAP 26: 314-370 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock [Mirror Match w/ Modest]

Counters:
252+ SpA Excadrill All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 141-167 (35.5 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Excadrill All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 248-292 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Excadrill All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 132+ SpD Arghonaut: 156-184 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Excadrill All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 184-217 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


As you can see, All-Out Pummeling even at maximum power is not noteworthy against checks (vs just Choice Scarf with Aura Sphere) and is worthless against counters.

-Memento is a pro-concept support move that follows up Doom Desire by setting up your sweeper in optimal conditions. While it may seem counterintuive as a fourth slot on a Scarf set, the ubiquity of Knock Off means you may likely have to sacrifice your item and significant health to get one off. Follow up with Momentum to put your opponent in the worst possible checkmate situation.

- Others have made an argument for Healing Wish, and Healing Wish has a similar strange interaction with Doom Desire on a Scarf set. If CAP is at low health and has lost its item, but is still faster than the opponent you can use Healing Wish as a sacrifice play to ensure your followup sweeper gets the full benefit of Doom Desire from full health.

I think it's beneficial every CAP to consider every possible interaction of the concept and what a viable set with that interaction would be. I do think Choice Scarf is one of those interactions. As strange as Doom Desire seems combined with a Choice Item, Scarf may actually be useful at some point.
 

Gross Sweep

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This thread has been a very interesting read. I haven't been the most active with this CAP, but I'd still like to see this project succeed. With this in mind there are a few things I want to touch on, since there have been some iffy moments in this thread from my point of view.

I want to start with the issue of Defog vs Rapid Spin.

Both of these moves are effective. They both have a similar end goal of removing hazards, but there are a few differences big enough to really simplify this discussion based upon what goal we want from this potential slot. I'd like to start off by saying Rapid Spin is the better move, and this isn't a statement meant to start a debate. You can look at little cons against Rapid Spin like having to take chip from Ferrothorn and Garchomp, or that Pajantom is a strong presence in the meta that can potentially spin block. However, even with considering the cons of Defog getting Taunted it really doesn't matter. The three cons listed are very minimal, and wont really effect the outcome of the usage of these moves 9 times out of 10. The biggest decider that should be addressed in every post on this topic should be Rapid Spin only removing an opponents hazards vs Defog removing all hazards. Even when you look at pros of Defog getting rid of screens, or Spin removing seeds it really still falls on one difference of the two moves. Even with the pro of removing screens going for defog (probably the second biggest factor towards using on of these moves over the other imo), the move still falls short. With this in mind we really only have to ask ourselves: given 26 has removal, how good do we want the move to be? It really is a pretty simple question when you truly break it down. Bughouse laid out some potential concerns with Rapid Spin, that I find myself agreeing with for the most part as it really is that good of a move. I also think it needs to be stated that any and all utility options we give 26 will provide competition for a slot when compared to Doom Desire. That said I don't really have a strong preference towards which option we go with. I just want to make it clear that if you prefer we stick as close to concept encouraging Doom Desire as much as as possible you should probably be encouraging Defog, and if you want the best move keep on chugging with Rapid Spin. Since Rapid Spin 26 will probably become a very common form of removal, while Defog variants will face more competition for the role with fellow defoggers like Torn-t since it wont have the advantage of having the better removal. I tend to prefer viability > concept to perhaps a slightly unhealthy level, so I'm fine with the popular opinion of Rapid Spin at this point in time. Honestly, I really feel both of these options are fine, I'm just starting to get a little sick of reading through comments like how 26 pressures pajantom who can spin block making it the best possible option for 26. A lot of the arguments on the subject almost overstate the importance of certain aspects of the two moves, or give the synergy of spin + DD to much credit for my taste since it's pretty minimal.

Next I want to talk about the development of 26, and a few issues I see arising. Whenever I think about 26 I always go back to this post by Birkal, and it makes me want to make a quick post on the presence of utility moves on this Pokemon. I believe every solid utility option we give this Pokemon makes us more and more likely to find a set that isn't running Doom Desire. I feel like this is an argument that is lost on some people at this phase of the project, especially when I see comments like this:

Most of these points can already be made for Defog as well, and it has already been discussed and tested in battle that hazard removal is not only beneficial but won't compete with Doom Desire.
I really don't think this can be further from the truth. While a couple of test games, and a few theroymon sets have fit both, it would be really foolish to draw any definitive conclusions when it comes to Doom Desire being a viable option in the current metagame. There are reasons moves like Doom Desire and Future Sight don't get a ton of usage, and it stems farther than not having the right abuser. the moves really aren't that great. Like Psychic vs Future Sight is a no brainer on what move you want to be running. With this in mind to much competition could be a bad thing. Some prominent users have made posts on the subject with regards to other competing moves, primarily Flash Cannon:

Flash Cannon shouldn't be banned. While I'm well aware that it's the big competition that Doom Desire faces, CAP is really big on the learning about what makes Pokemon competitively good thing. Because of this, I believe that it would actually be better to have Flash Cannon because it's more of a test to see if we truly understood the concept or not.
In my opinion, this is the ultimate litmus test. I agree with Deck Knight here - while Flash Cannon presents the biggest opportunity to "fail the concept," it gives us the biggest opportunity to learn, which is what the spirit of CAP is all about. Without a decent one-turn Steel STAB move, we won't know if we succeeded in tuning CAP 26 to the point of really wanting to use Doom Desire without forcing it into it through excessive restrictions, preventing us from really understanding what's necessary to make delayed attacks work and removing our opportunity to see how players would choose to build with CAP 26 and whether Doom Desire sets will organically develop through its time in the CAP metagame.
If we were to take this approach to all potential moves that could dilute usage from Doom Desire options like Removal, Rocks, Healing Wish, Pain Split, Status, maybe some kind of set up, and Flash Cannon should find a way onto 26. If you want to talk about how we need to test ourselves vs other options to see if we actually succeed. Honestly the idea is a little odd to me. It's almost like putting a self destruction button on 26, giving an opening for the project to fail when considering the concept. That said I don't think we should exclude all of these options since it would leave 26 unusable, but I think we should be a bit more hesitant when throwing all kinds of options on the mon. Since if we end up giving this thing rocks a set that uses something like Earth Power, Flash Cannon, Stealth Rock (or even removal in this slot since we're seemingly guaranteed that), with the last slot being something like Pain Split or perhaps Hwish for more team utility. As I said before I want this project to succeed, but we really have to be careful with all the utility options we look at since they will have some impact on Doom Desire usage. It is greater than Flash Cannon vs Doom Desire.

In the end I really don't have a super clear cut idea on what forms of competition should be allowed to make their way onto 26 versus other options. I just wanted to make it clear that the idea of putting 26 to the test by giving it other options in its movepool to see if users run Doom desire, as opposed to seeing if people run 26 if it has few other options is extremely risky. I think the decisions made thus far have really helped drive this project in the right direction, but all that progress could unravel quickly if we get a little to extreme at this phase. It's a fine line we all really need to consider going forward. If it were solely up to me I'd probably end up giving 26 rocks, defog (I think you can get away with rocks + defog, but if you pick spin you gotta leave rocks off the set imo), pain split, healing wish, some kind of phasing. While leaving off any status that isn't Toxic, especially Glare as that move is easily polarizing enough to stunt DD usage. I'd also like to suggest more discussion on how confident people are that Doom Desire will garner usage over Flash Cannon a majority of the time. Since while I do see people running Doom Desire sometimes, it's really hard for me to envision a world where FC doesn't wind up on a sizable portion of sets. It's something I'd really appreciate an explanation on, since I'm sure it's a mindset thing.
 

G-Luke

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We have had some rather unexpected, but well needed discussion about a move I would have not predicted to be controversial - Spiky Shield. While it was initially granted access with little discussion, the community has spoken out, and has voiced several of their own concerns with the move, namely the optics of necessity versus viability. Spiky Shield 100% outclasses Protect, and would make sets that are reliant on these moves stronger as a result. But, the point that was made is that CAP 26 does not necessitate the addition of Spiky Shield, as Protect variants would still execute the set's role well, and its viability would not be heavily impacted by the loss of Spiky Shield. With this, and other arguments in play like overloading CAP 26 with anti offense options, I have come to the decision to redact Spiky Shield from quziel's approved set.

Moveset Submission
Name: Cleric of Doom (Team Support)
Move 1: Doom Desire
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Toxic / Whirlwind / Rapid Spin
Move 4: Heal Bell
Ability: Levitate
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 40 SpA / 88 SpD / 68 Spe
Nature: Modest

Moveset Submission
Name: Swift Justice / Swift Impact (Choice Scarf)
Move 1: Doom Desire
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
Move 4: Aura Sphere / Memento / Healing Wish
Ability: Levitate
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
Heal Bell. Is Heal Bell needed on CAP 26? I do not feel like Heal Bell will be a distraction ofc, but I am not sure about the prospect of overloading CAP 26 with utility options. Especially given that Heal Bell is usually a big momentum sack on more offensive builds, and giving up momentum is a big slap in the face. I would like to see more debate on this for later

Choice Scarf. I just cannot see Doom Desire plus Choice Scarf being optimal. Choice items completely sap momentum from a Pokémon using Doom Desire, and is probably the first set that Flash Cannon completely outclasses Doom Desire at. Not to mention, why would anybody use a Choice Scarf Pokémom with 60 base speed? What would you be planning to revenge kill? This isn't Generation 4, the speed creep has long since past that stage. Sorry but the Choice Scarf set is being denied, for not only being Anti Concept with Doom Desire, but by being an outright unoptimal set.
 
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