CAP 26 - Part 8 - Moveset Discussion

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In this stage, we are determining the required and disallowed competitive moves by creating a list of approved movesets. The movesets will be decided based on the competitive needs and limitations of this project. We are not submitting full movepools at this time. There will be a later stage for movepool submissions (level-up sets, egg moves, etc) once the required and disallowed moves have been determined via the accepted movesets.

Moveset Discussion Rules & Guidelines

There should be four kinds of posts in the thread:
  • Moveset Submissions
  • Moveset Edits/Option Submissions
  • General Commentary
  • Section Leader/Topic Leader Announcements/Updates
This means that no moves can be suggested or commented on unless they are part of a full competitive moveset submission or suggested as a additional option for one or more previous movesets. Any recommendations to disallow certain moves should only be in reference to moves contained in previously posted movesets.

The general flow of this thread should go like this:
  1. People post moveset submissions in a prescribed format (see below)
  2. Other people suggest to add/remove moves or other options to previously posted movesets (see below)
  3. Other people propose edits to the descriptive information with previously posted movesets
  4. Other people comment on the competitive pros and cons of previously posted movesets, additions/removals, and proposed edits
  5. Continuously over the course of the thread, the movepool leader updates the first post in the thread with the "currently accepted" movesets and other information related to the status of the intelligent community consensus (see below)
By the end of this discussion thread, we should have the following outputs:
  • The top post in the thread (maintained by the Movepool Leader) will contain a list of all edited, approved movesets
  • The top post will list controversial movesets and/or optional moves that need to be voted on by the community
Prohibited Moves:
Legendary Signature Moves are banned from discussion unless one (or more) is specifically allowed by the combined consensus of the TL and the Movepool Leader. The following moves are considered Legendary Signatures:

Blue Flare
Bolt Strike
Crush Grip
Core Enforcer
Dark Void
Diamond Storm
Dragon Ascent
Fleur Cannon
Freeze Shock
Fusion Bolt
Fusion Flare
Heart Swap
Hyperspace Fury
Hyperspace Hole
Ice Burn
Land's Wrath
Light of Ruin
Lunar Dance
Luster Purge
Magma Storm
Mist Ball
Moongeist Beam
Oblivion Wing
Origin Pulse
Photon Geyser
Plasma Fists
Precipice Blades
Prismatic Laser
Psycho Boost
Relic Song
Roar of Time
Sacred Fire
Searing Shot
Secret Sword
Seed Flare
Shadow Force
Spacial Rend
Spectral Thief
Steam Eruption
Sunsteel Strike
Techno Blast
Thousand Arrows
Thousand Waves

Moveset Submissions

Movesets should be posted in the following format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Ice Beam
Move 4: Earth Power / Energy Ball
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest / Timid
  • Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
  • Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut very hard.
  • Ice Beam complements Thunderbolt very well, allowing it to hit Ground-types like Garchomp.
  • Earth Power lets CAP X hit Heatran and Mega Crucibelle very hard, while Energy Ball lets it hit Gastrodon and Mega Swampert harder.
  • Sheer Force powers up CAP X's main moves.
  • Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
  • Modest is preferred for more power, but Timid can be used to outspeed Gyarados and Heatran before boosting.
[B]Moveset Submission[/B]

Move 1:
Move 2:
Move 3:
Move 4:
Ability: (optional)
Item: (optional)
EVs: (optional)
Nature: (optional)
Please keep to the above format so the movepool leader can easily see which posts in the thread are proposing new moveset submissions, and can easily locate the information when updating the top post in the thread.

Ability, Item, EVs, and Nature are optional. All that is required are four moves, a name, and some descriptive information (in bullet form).

Any suggested moveset posted without any reasonable description will be deleted by the moderators. People should not spam movesets, post without checking the movesets already submitted, or post movesets without thinking them through.

Although we are not posting movesets in the full C&C analysis format, you should generally adhere to C&C standards where it makes sense. While there will not be excessively strict moderation on this, use common sense. Don't get too slash-happy with moves, no stupid names, use proper spelling and grammar, etc. These movesets will be put on the CAP subsite immediately at the end of the CAP for the playtest.

If you are unsure of the optimal ability, item, EVs, or nature -- you can leave it out and it can be edited in later over the course of the thread. By the end of the thread, every accepted moveset should be filled in completely. That doesn't mean we need to be 100% sure of every aspect of the moveset. It's fine if we go with our best guess and leave it to the playtest to optimize it.

Moveset Edits/Option Submissions

Edits/options should be made by copying the most recent version of the moveset and description into an unattributed quote tags ([ QUOTE][ /QUOTE]). Then make any edits, additions, or replacements in bold text, removals should be in strike-through text. The most recent copy should taken from the top post or from the original submission post, depending on whichever one is most current.

Posters can and should comment on the reasoning and background for any proposed edits outside of Quote tags. Simple wording or spelling corrections do not need any explanation or commentary.

Additional move proposals must be made in the context of one or more movesets. The user cannot simply post "I suggest we add Taunt as an option to all non-choiced movesets", for example.

Movepool Leader/Topic Leader Posts

The first post under the OP is reserved by the Movepool Leader, and will serve as the reference post for the current status of the discussion.

When the Movepool Leader determines that a moveset, option, or edit is accepted by intelligent community consensus, they will add/update a list of "Approved Movesets" in the first post. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add every submission to the first post automatically, simply because it was posted in the thread. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add a submission to the first post if it was not actively accepted by intelligent community consensus. "Lack of any response" is not the same as "acceptance". As with all CAP discussion threads, the leader should always use their best judgement.

If a proposal has received significant intelligent feedback (positive or negative), but it has not yet reached consensus, the Movepool leader should add it to an "Under Consideration" list in the first post. If the thread ends with controversial items that can't reach consensus, they will go to a community poll. In most cases, the "Under Consideration" list should be comprised of full movesets or additional option proposals. Edits to the description of most movesets, probably will not require extensive discussion or polling.

As the Movepool Leader makes updates to the first post, they should also post announcements in the thread indicating what they have added or updated. This will allow active discussion participants to easily track the progress of the thread. The Topic Leader should also post regular feedback in the thread, like every other competitive discussion.


CAP 26 so far:

Dogfish44 said:
Name - The Future is Bright!

Description - A Pokemon that makes usage of the 'delayed-attack' moves - Future Sight and/or Doom Desire

Justification - Given we're attempting to create a Pokemon that uses one of two specific moves, this is an Actualisation concept. Future Sight and Doom Desire are incredibly unique moves, which see limited usage in spite of their high base power, and ability to have a target Pokemon struck twice in the same turn. In using CAP26, the aim is to create a Pokemon that inspires a feeling of being able to trap opponents, to establish win-win situations.

Questions To Be Answered -
One Pokemon which has been seen to fairly reliably use Future Sight is Slowking. What can we learn from Slowking about what makes a viable user of Future Sight? On the same token, what has led Jirachi to not be effective at using Doom Desire, and other Pokemon to not effectively use Future Sight?
What is the optimum usage of Future Sight/Doom Desire, both on the turn immediately after using the move, and the turn on which the move will land?
Should the user of Future Sight/Doom Desire be primarily helping itself, or other teammates. If helping itself, what is the aim? If helping teammates, then what types of teammate?
Are Z-Future Sight and Z-Doom Desire mandatory, or just useful tools?
Explantion - Doom Desire is almost one we've done before, as people from the era of Cawmodore probably remember. Whilst little has changed since then, we have seen Future Sight get another power level increase since then.

This isn't a case of using a move which we know can't be used - we can look to Slowking (Future Sight) or Dialga (Balanced Hackmons, Doom Desire) for inspiration on what makes these moves workable. At the same time, we know that they're not automatic locks in spite of their high base power, allowing us room to explore what makes these moves often fall flat.

The beauty of Future Sight and Doom Desire as concept leads is that they don't massively restrict our ability to choose a direction right from the gate - focussing on these moves for their ability to strike twice in a single turn likely produces a Pokemon that is very different from focussing on these moves for their ability to force specific Pokemon out for a teammate to switch in. Whether we create a Pokemon that breaks walls, or pivots around, or supports a very specific partner, or something else entirely, these moves make for a concept that should be both interesting to implement, and with many avenues to explore.
Topic Leader: SHSP

Topic Leadership Team:
Typing Leader: GMars
Ability Leader: Jordy
Stats Leader: Jho
Movepool Leader: G-Luke

Typing: Steel/Ground

SHSP said:
Switch Ins: Mega Crucibelle, Clefable, Tapu Koko, Most Tornadus-T, Magearna lacking Focus Blast

Counters: Celesteela, Rotom-Wash, Arghonaut, Chansey

Checks: Mega Latias and Latios, Ash Greninja, Volkraken, Mega Charizard X and Y, AV Tyranitar, Landorus-T, Ferrothorn
Primary Ability: Levitate

Stats: 102 HP / 50 Atk / 96 Def / 133 SpA / 118 SpD / 60 Spe

Secondary Ability: Bulletproof
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Sugar, Spice and One for All
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Yee yee folks! I am G-Luke, and I will be heading the last of the competitive aspect of this process, the moves section! Here we will be deciding what moves will and will not be considered in CAP 26's arsenal, based on the decided typing, abilities, stats and overall role CAP 26 will carry out in the metagame.

As outlined in the concept assessment, CAP 26 will be executing the utilization of Doom Desire primarily via the role of a pivot. We also want to have a strong offensive presence, incentivizing Doom Desire usage, without being an overbearing menace. And we finally want to support wallbreakers on the team, acting as a "psuedo-hazard" of sorts. In addition to our important Checks and Counters list, these are the parameters that we will be bound to when supporting, denouncing and in general discussing particular moves.

Now, before we dive head first into moveset submissions, I would like for us to generate some discussion with these questions, in an attempt to guideline the process and help us choose what moves are pro and anti concept. So, without further ado, here are the head questions leading this segment of the moveset discussion.

1.) What moves promote the usage of and/or compliment the attack Doom Desire, and enhance its overall effectiveness? In that same vein, what moves decentivize the usage or directly compete with Doom Desire, and hinder its overall effectiveness?

2.) Given our main role as a pivot, are there any beneficial moves that help us to complete our role without infringing on Doom Desire?

3.) Finally, with the flexibility of Doom Desire in mind, are there any other secondary roles that this CAP can achieve using Doom Desire, and if so, what moves highlight these roles?

With these questions, in a 24 to 48 hour discussion period, I believe we will reach a consensus on how we want CAP 26 to interact with its C&C, and how Doom Desire will be used on this CAP. And after that, I will open moveset submissions and allow the various discussed sets to be scrutinized in detail. But until then, please refrain from submitting any movesets until I make it clear it is ok to do so. Fine then. Let's discuss some moves shall we?
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Moveset Submission

Name: Destiny's Gate (Anti-Offense Fast Attacker)
Move 1: Destiny Bond
Move 2: Doom Desire
Move 3: Earth Power
Move 4: Pain Split / Toxic
Ability: Levitate
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 96 HP / 32 SpA / 252 SpD / 128 Spe [Pain Split] or 248 HP / 32 SpA / 100 SpD / 128 Spe [Toxic]
Nature: Calm (+SpD, -Atk)

Moveset Submission

Name: Recycle
Move 1: Recycle
Move 2: Doom Desire
Move 3: Earth Power
Move 4: Toxic / Rapid Spin / Substitute
Ability: Levitate / Bulletproof
Item: Iapapa Berry
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 40 SpA / 88 SpD / 68 Spe
Nature: Modest

Name: Protox
Move 1: Doom Desire
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Protect
Move 4: Toxic
Ability: Levitate/Bulletproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 40 SpA / 88 SpD / 68 Spe
Nature: Modest

Moveset Submission

Name: Phazard Master (Offensive Utility Pivot)
Move 1: Doom Desire
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Dragon Tail / Whirlwind
Move 4: Rapid Spin / Toxic
Ability: Levitate / Bulletproof
Item: Steelium Z / Wiki Berry
EVs: 200 HP/220 SpA/88 Spe
Nature: Modest

Name: DOOOM (Bulky Attacker)
Move 1: Doom Desire / Flash Cannon
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Whirlwind / Dragon Tail
Move 4: Rapid Spin / Pain Split
Ability: Levitate
Item: Leftovers / Wiki Berry
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Sassy

Moveset Submission

Name: Perish Song
Move 1: Perish Song
Move 2: Doom Desire
Move 3: Earth Power
Move 4: Toxic / Healing Wish
Ability: Levitate / Bulletproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Nature: Modest

Moveset Submission

Name: Assault Vest Tank
Move 1: Earth Power
Move 2: Doom Desire
Move 3: Rapid Spin
Move 4: Aura Sphere / Flash Cannon / Hidden Power Rock
Ability: Bulletproof / Levitate
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Nature: Modest

Moveset Submission:
Name: Sacrificial Justice
Move 1: Doom Desire
Move 2: Earth Power / Flash Cannon
Move 3: Memento / Healing Wish
Move 4: Toxic / Rapid Spin
Ability: Levitate/Bulletproof
Item: Darkinium-Z / Focus Sash / Steelium-Z
EVs: 68 HP / 252 SpA / 188 Spe
Nature: Timid

Name: Worked Up Doom Desire
Move 1: Work Up
Move 2: Doom Desire
Move 3: Earth Power
Move 4: Toxic / Protect / Rapid Spin
Ability: Levitate
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 40 SpA / 88 SpD / 68 Spe
Nature: Modest

Moveset Submission
Name: Cleric of Doom (Team Support)
Move 1: Doom Desire
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Toxic / Whirlwind / Rapid Spin
Move 4: Heal Bell
Ability: Levitate
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 40 SpA / 88 SpD / 68 Spe
Nature: Modest

Disallowed Moves: Fire coverage stronger than 60 BP, Ice coverage over 60 BP, Electric coverage 80 BP or higher, 50% recovery moves, Nasty Plot, Leech Seed, pivoting moves, entry hazards, trapping moves.
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What moves promote the usage of and/or compliment the attack Doom Desire, and enhance its overall effectiveness? In that same vein, what moves decentivize the usage or directly compete with Doom Desire, and hinder its overall effectiveness?

I feel that hazards, such as Spikes and Stealth Rock, as well as Defog, go very well with Doom Desire. As Doom Desire is a move that easily can force switches, these moves are great to use when the foe is switching out. Defog is especially useful, as we have a quadruple resistance to Stealth Rock, and if we run Levitate, are immune to Spikes. While I do not think we should get all three moves (I don’t even really think we should get two), I feel we should at least consider this trio of moves. On the other hand, Volt Switch and U-Turn, in my opinion, will discourage Doom Desire. While we are a pivot, we should be getting our momentum from Doom Desire itself, not pivot moves that take up a slot, and especially in the case of Volt Switch, damages our C&C of Arghonaut and Celesteela. Even if we do U-Turn, that In my opinion would risk ousting Doom Desire from our sets, as both moves generate momentum, but U-Turn generates it immediately.

Finally, with the flexibility of Doom Desire in mind, are there any other secondary roles that this CAP can achieve using Doom Desire, and if so, what moves highlight these roles?

I feel that while I am not completely keen on this, a wallbreaker utilizing Nasty Plot is very much an option to have as a secondary role. It works in the same way I mentioned with Defog earlier. The only thing we should keep in mind if we do decide to go this route is that it likely will not be able to be on the same set as a pivot, as unlike Future Sight, Doom Desire does not use the boosts used prior to switching out.


Not Exactly Helping
What moves promote the usage of and/or compliment the attack Doom Desire, and enhance its overall effectiveness? In that same vein, what moves decentivize disincentivize the usage or directly compete with Doom Desire, and hinder its overall effectiveness?
While I don't think we should ban Flash Cannon, whenever a move is suggested, it should be considered whether or not the move in question would incentivize the usage of Flash Cannon over Doom Desire as, in my opinion, that move has the greatest chance of replacing Doom Desire on this mon.

Pivoting moves (Volt Switch, U-Turn, and Parting Shot) would synergize well with Doom Desire and allow it to pivot more effectively as it would allow you to use Doom Desire, tank another hit, use your pivoting move to bring in a teammate that you may not have been able to hard switch into, and then you'd be putting quite a bit of pressure onto the opponent. Arguably though, as Snake will no doubt bring up, pivoting moves may be too good at gaining momentum and therefore outclass Doom Desires function of gaining momentum, leading to DD not seeing use. I'm not yet convinced though that this will be the case.

If pivoting moves are banned from this mon, another option is Healing Wish or Memento, which can be used after a Doom Desire to set up a potentially game winning sweep by making a sacrifice play if used correctly and does not pose the same risk as the above pivoting moves as these are single use moves.

Given our main role as a pivot, are there any beneficial moves that help us to complete our role without infringing on Doom Desire?
I think recovery of some sort would be very useful for this mon as a pivot since it will be coming in on attacks frequently.

Finally, with the flexibility of Doom Desire in mind, are there any other secondary roles that this CAP can achieve using Doom Desire, and if so, what moves highlight these roles?
Another option for a Doom Desire abuser is as a sweeper/wallbreaker that utilizes setup moves to deal large amounts of damage. Nasty Plot or Calm Mind could facilitate this.


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What moves promote the usage of and/or compliment the attack Doom Desire, and enhance its overall effectiveness? In that same vein, what moves disincentive the usage or directly compete with Doom Desire, and hinder its overall effectiveness?

I personally disagree with Revi that hazards are moves that synergise with Doom Desire, in fact I believe they directly compete with it. Stealth Rock will take priority to be clicked (at least the first time in a game or after a defog) while Spikes in particular will almost always replace Doom Desire on switchins. As Reachzero suggested in the concept assessment, one way to think about Doom Desire is as a pseudo-entry hazard. With this in mind, we don't want to give Doom Desire as much competition as other more consistent and reliable entry hazards do.

Rapid Spin and Defog on the other hand are very interesting move choices and can complement the use of Doom Desire well due to the positive matchups that a Levitating Steel/Ground type has against most common Stealth Rock setters. The only ones that give it some trouble at this stage are Tyranitar, Fire Blast Garchomp and Heatran. This isn't specifically the case against common Spikers like Argh and Greninja, but there are still plenty of opportunities for CAP 26 to switch in and remove them. This is unlike an entry hazard a form of utility that in itself does not compete with what Doom Desire wants to achieve, although it will on occasion take precedent as the first move clicked. However, I think it's worth noting that much of Doom Desire's success comes from having healthy team mates that can capitalise on the checkmate scenarios, and as such keeping hazards away by itself is great role compression for CAP 26.

I'm currently quite ambivalent on the pivoting moves, out of all of them I would only consider supporting U-Turn because it is coming from Cap 26's weaker attacking stat, and can trigger Iron barbs and Rocky helmet. While Volt Switch can be blocked by Cawmodore and Colossoil it is otherwise a very safe move to spam and coming from its superior attacking stat can rack up chip damage. Parting shot both offers too much consistency and utility respectively and in conjunction with hazard removal could squeeze out Doom Desire for a more general utility build.

Phazing moves like Dragon Tail and Roar are some of the most interesting synergy attacks that go with Doom Desire, and I would support any or all of them. They effectively offer something very similar to direct pivot moves without gaining as significant momentum for the friendly team by setting up scenarios where Doom Desire can hit targets for massive damage by forcing out resists. Dragon Tail in particular has the interesting benefit of not working on Fairy types, which will prevent clever opponents from predicting the phaze and bringing in the Fairy knowing it will not be hit (see Quziel's discussion of Dragon Tail Slowking and Vileplume matches). There is already a precedent for these moves seeing play in conjunction with delayed moves, and as such I believe they should be considered here too.

Outside of hazards I don't think there are utility moves that specifically force out Doom Desire, however, a combination will. With this in mind I would not recommend additional utility from what I have discussed above such as Knock Off or Wish, as a pivot with access to a lot of utility will often do its best to run as many as possible (see Ferrothorn), and with Doom Desire being delayed, it is in itself practically a utility move, which would likely encourage more reliable Steel stab such as Flash Cannon to be run.
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1.) What moves promote the usage of and/or compliment the attack Doom Desire, and enhance its overall effectiveness? In that same vein, what moves decentivize the usage or directly compete with Doom Desire, and hinder its overall effectiveness?
Pivoting moves:
And so I arrive! Like a snake slithering through the savannah, sneaking to his prey, who knows NOT what is comi-

Arguably though, as Snake will no doubt bring up, pivoting moves may be too good at gaining momentum and therefore outclass Doom Desires function of gaining momentum, leading to DD not seeing use. I'm not yet convinced though that this will be the case.

Well as Frost has so elegantly SPOILED for me, I don't like pivoting moves on CAP26. I still maintain what I've said in this post. To summarize though, Doom Desire is a move that's all about momentum, and adding on moves like U-turn, Volt Switch, or Parting Shot would distract CAP26 from its concept. Yes, I understand how Doom Desire into U-turn is an excellent combination to use; however, I think that is far too streamlined for what we can do with this concept. There are other ways to use Doom Desire effectively without having to crutch on brainless pivoting moves. Also, pivoting moves further restrict CAP26's movepool due to the number of sets that can eschew Doom Desire for a utility move and just use the pivoting move as a way not to forfeit momentum. In the rest of my post, I'd like to highlight some other moves that can reward intelligent use of Doom Desire, rather than make it rather boring to use. Basically, I think pivoting moves are really risky to take on for this concept, and I'd rather focus on other avenues.

Phazing moves:
A prime avenue for CAP26 to explore is phazing, as seen by Assault Vest Slowking in NU, which runs the combination of Future Sight + Dragon Tail. Basically, this means that the opponent can't switch in a resist into the incoming Future Sight, as Slowking can Dragon Tail out the resist. I think CAP26 could run a similar combination, hopefully with access to more than one phazing move just for variety. The nice thing about phazing moves also is that it won't supplant Doom Desire for a moveslot, making them easy additions to CAP26's movepool.

I really don't like hazards on CAP26, especially Spikes. CAP26 should be pressuring the opposing team with Doom Desire, not Spikes or (to a lesser extent) Stealth Rock.

I think we're going to have to be really stingy on coverage for this CAP, outside of Hidden Power. It's way too easy to run something like two utility moves + Earth Power + (Flamethrower / Ice Beam / whatever coverage) because Ground-type coverage is just really good. We picked Steel / Ground for its coverage between Doom Desire and Earth Power, so let's keep it that way for the most part. I don't mean to say that all coverage is unilaterally terrible on CAP26, but any coverage that CAP26 gets will likely have to be rather inefficient.

2.) Given our main role as a pivot, are there any beneficial moves that help us to complete our role without infringing on Doom Desire?
This is going to be a really interesting debate that I'm not really sure I have a clear opinion on yet. Do we need recovery at all? Can we manage with Leftovers + Protect, given CAP26's immunity / resistance to so many forms of passive damage? If we need recovery, do we go with something like Moonlight, or all the way with Recover? Is Iapapa pivot the way to go? Still not sure on this one.

Hazard Removal:
While setting entry hazards is problematic for CAP26's concept, hazard removal is a lot more interesting. We have a good matchup against opposing hazard setters (Garchomp, Heatran, Landorus-T, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Diancie, Mega Crucibelle); placing pressure on them with Defog, in combination with the threat of Doom Desire, seems like a great way to cement CAP26's role as a pivot in the metagame.

While I was a lot more enthusiastic about Paralysis earlier in the project, the general idea of CAP26, as outlined in the concept assessment, was to force in passive answers to deal with CAP26. Having Paralysis in CAP26's arsenal makes it even dicier for a fast, offensive Pokemon to switch in. I think it's an interesting avenue to explore for this CAP.

3.) Finally, with the flexibility of Doom Desire in mind, are there any other secondary roles that this CAP can achieve using Doom Desire, and if so, what moves highlight these roles?
Nasty Plot:
Although it's the last move I'm talking about, Nasty Plot is perhaps the move I want most on CAP26. It doesn't play quite into the pivot idea, CAP26 already has a lot of the tools it needs to be a pivot. Thus, having the option to supercharge its Doom Desires sounds really, really interesting - it forces the opponent to wonder what CAP26 will do after it uses Doom Desire - will it switch to a teammate to complete the Doom Desire lock? or will it stay in and make that Doom Desire hit twice as hard? It's not going to sweep anytime soon with 60 Speed, and it also improves our matchup with CM + Pain Split Magearna, which we were having issues with in the stats stage.
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1) What moves promote the usage of and/or compliment the attack Doom Desire, and enhance its overall effectiveness? In that same vein, what moves decentivize the usage or directly compete with Doom Desire, and hinder its overall effectiveness?

I think that one of the main challenges of this concept is that there aren't many many moves that synergize well with Doom Desire in the first place. As it has been discussed in previous stages, while Doom Desire is a very powerful tool, it's also not very practical and requires. For this reason I think we need to take a minimalist approach to this stage, as if we add many moves, there is a serious risk that they will end up completely outclassing Doom Desire.

Hazard moves (Stealth Rock, Spikes, Rapid Spin, Defog):
I think that any of these would be frankly very dangerous for the concept, as they would take away the spotlight from Doom Desire by providing incredibly valuable team support. Not only that, but they also compete against Doom Desire in game too, as if we include them, they would be used in turns where CAP 26 could have used Doom Desire instead (Spikes would be the biggest offender here, as you'd want to use them multiple times, even if the opponent doesn't remove them). That being said, Defog/Rapid Spin does have amazing synergy with our typing and ability, and would undoubtedly give CAP a massive viability boost, which makes it a very desirable pick as a support move. However, these moves needs to be treated with extreme caution, and they should never be given alongside almost any other notably good moves, because then I think it would be pretty hard for CAP 26 to ever use Doom Desire.

Coverage (Potentially Ice, Fire or Electric): These could be a different way of approaching CAP 26 and could open the possibility to threaten stuff that we would normally struggle with, such as Celesteela, Mega Latias and Latios, and opposing CAP 26. I think Ice coverage in particular could help us capitalize on our matchup against Ground-types like Garchomp and Landorus-T, and makes us have a way of hurting Mega Lati@s without resorting to Steelium Z or Flash Cannon. Of course, having any additional coverage would greatly restrict our other options, and one type of coverage should definitely be as far as we go, because any more than that would always make us very short on moveslots.

Phazing moves (Whirlwind, Dragon Tail): I think this are the moves that have the clearest synergy with our main move, and they aren't particularly useful by themselves, so unlike most other moves, I don't think there is much risk in including them, making them very safe additions to CAP 26 arsenal. Probably the biggest concern that these could present is that because they select a random Pokemon, there is a certain level of uncompetitiveness to them, but I don't really think this that much of an issue, and mindlessly spamming them could also easily leave you in a bad position if you bring in something like Volkraken or Heatran

Nasty Plot: I'm very skeptical of this, or any other set up move. By looking at the raw numbers that Doom Desire produces, I can see the appeal of this, but I think that these kind of sets would much rather use Flash Cannon for direct damage, as adding a turn of set up on top of the two turn delay seems very unpractical, and while this combination being useful is against some passive mons like Arghonaut which wall us but can't do much back to us, I don't really think it would be better than regular moves in practice.

Pivoting moves (U-turn, Volt Switch): They could be a safe if boring way to execute the concept, but I agree with snake that there are better ways to do this.

2.) Given our main role as a pivot, are there any beneficial moves that help us to complete our role without infringing on Doom Desire?

As snake already said recovery moves are a very important part of this discussion, as they'd allow CAP 26 to be much more consistent at checking what is supposed to check. However, I think that conventional recovery moves are probably too much for this project, as they a momentum sink and take away precious turns that we could have used to fire off a Doom Desire. Additionally, I think there are many other better options to choose for our support moves. Moonlight/Morning Sun can serve as an alternative, but they are more or less identical unless you play against Rain or Sand, so I don't think they are very significant downgrades and have the same problem as regular recovery. Leech Seed is another possible choice, but it requires to be used constantly and could even take 2 moveslots if it were used with Protect like Celesteela does, which I don't like at all. Pain Split is an interesting option, as unlike any other recovery move, you have to be very careful when using it, as the opponent might play around it, and our high HP value means that is won't be easy to find opportunities to use, but it can still give CAP 26 a chance to regain health if played correctly. However, it runs into the problem that it could allow us to win 1v1 against passive mons that are supposed to check us such as Arghonaut and Chansey, so I don't think it would be wise to include it.

Overall, I think CAP 26 would be better off without recovery options, as we already are hard to wear down by hazards and Leftovers or a Pinch Berry should be enough to do our job.

3.) Finally, with the flexibility of Doom Desire in mind, are there any other secondary roles that this CAP can achieve using Doom Desire, and if so, what moves highlight these roles?[/B]

I believe flexibility doesn't really work well with this project, because every move that doesn't focus on somewhat supporting Doom Desire is anti-concept in a way, so we really should keep CAP 26 focused on just a few good viable sets without going overboard. That being said, I think that Trick Room is a move worth discussing, as CAP 26 could fit into the archetype, and Slowking even proves that a delayed move could be used in this situation. I'm not a big fan of this idea, as I feel like TR is a playstyle that doesn't need any more help, and CAP 26 doesn't need to focus on it to succeed, but this move should definitely be on the table for discussion [/QUOTE]
Finally, with the flexibility of Doom Desire in mind, are there any other secondary roles that this CAP can achieve using Doom Desire, and if so, what moves highlight these roles?
The naturally high hp and special defense would allow cap 26 to either rival or work together with magearna as a specially defensive steel type, though of course we wouldn't want to overshadow magearna, but due to magearnas access to volt switch, pain split and strong stab move in fleur cannon, it can allow it to fill many roles as a pivot, offensively and defensively. I don't want cap26 to copy what magearna does, though I do think we could learn from magearnas playstyles to not 'just be another pivot' but rather a pokemon with a different yet similar playstyle. I'll be listing a few categories of important things to keep in mind that have been brought up

Recovery: Having a reliable recovery move would allow us to click doom desire, heal, then switch out, or heal whenever we'd come in and they go out into a counter or a check, allowing us to stay healthy and further enhance our role as a pivot. As mentioned above, I personally think Moonlight or Morning Sun would be the best choice, simply because of their reliability, and to balance the naturally high hp they only have 8 pp, meaning you'd have to use them sparingly in order to best enhance our abilities to heal. Utilizing either of those moves would mean we'd have a solid partner in drought jumbao, because of our poison immunity, steel and flying resist, while jumbao helps us with fighting, water and ground (If we're not levitate) only leaving fire as a shared weakness. Another idea though one I'm less of a fan of is giving it Shore up as it would allow us to pair well with any weather, and especially pair well with sand, though having 16 pp means that it's more spammable, risking taking away from the point of a pivot that clicks doom desire, which is the opposite of what we wish to accomplish, but it's an option should we choose to pair it with sand over sun.

Pivoting moves: While our job is being a pivot, moves like volt switch, u-turn and parting shot would allow us to be an actual pivot with momentum, but to me it takes away the point of doom desire being our main focus, as we'd be able to switch our almost whenever if we predict them, instead of utilizing doom desire to force switch-ins to us or what we go out into to be the important part, and without pivoting we'd be able to better utilize our defensive stats as a switch-in to attacks, rather than creating momentum for the team directly.

Coverage: This is going to be quite an important one, as we have quite a high special attack stat, and quite a few different counters and checks, the main one which I personally disagree with is Ice Beam as it would significantly change the matchups in our checks, and I really don't like the power it would give to deal with flying and ground types mainly, but also grass and dragon to a degree, but having a way to directly hit pokemons like landorus-t and the lati twins without having to give up our hidden power slot is something that I feel would completely overshine our doom desire role, and the same thing to be said about Flamethrower/Fire Coverage as it simply would change matchups by being able to hit ferrothorn and celesteela quite hard, and not having to sacrifise the hidden power slot, because if we get either a strong ice or a strong fire move, our hidden power could go to the other to help us deal with mainly ferrothorn/landorus-t at the same time, and while neither can offensively do much to us (If we're levitate), we can't do much back to them outside of hidden powers, meaning we can deal with one, but not the other. Then you have moves like Thunderbolt which would mess with celesteela, rotom-wash (To a degree), arghonaut, greninja and volkraken too much. The point I'm making is that we'd need to balance how much coverage we'd have and how much we can hit, because it could change matchups quite a lot in our favour, and again overshine the point of clicking doom desire, but of course some coverage like example Psychic would allow us to hit fighting types that may be an issue, but it wouldn't mess that much with the counter/checks, and if a set like assault vest becomes a reality, you could use moves like doom desire, earth power, psychic and hidden power ice/hidden power fire/flash cannon and pair up with psychic terrain set by tapu lele to use psychic boosted after you've dealt with it, but we'd have to use bulletproof because if we're not grounded we don't get the boost.
My point with it is to prove that we have to be careful of how powerful the coverage can be and what type it is, as I don't think we'd want to have too much coverage.

There are other points like hazards, hazards removal and phasing which I don't have an opinion on myself, but others have brought up great points up above, so remember to read those ^-^


Master Procraster
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Hey guys I think we are forgetting that having Doom Desire is pro-concept we should totally use it.

1.) What moves promote the usage of and/or compliment the attack Doom Desire, and enhance its overall effectiveness? In that same vein, what moves decentivize the usage or directly compete with Doom Desire, and hinder its overall effectiveness?

Phazing moves (like Roar or Circle Throw) have always been the ones that interest me the most during the course of this. It does add an element of randomness and can backfire on us, but the effect that phazing have absolutely outweigh annoying side effect. The fact that this can force pokemon in that do not want to be in against either our attacks or our Doom Desire in an even better scenario forces far more pressure on the opponent to create those win/win checkmates we so graciously desire. I see a great number of different options.

I also think that hazard control is also a great route to go with this cap, although I am a bit more cautious of it. Stealth Rock/Spikes gives CAP some more utility options to do once a Doom Desire on the way, and the extra hazards can soften foes for the incoming blow. Its a great set of utility moves...but I'm worried that by having them they will become the first and most important priority in battle over Doom Desire.

You see, both Doom Desire and hazards are proactive moves, requiring actual setup to be effective. And because of CAP's heavy lean on the importance of hazards, it is a reasonable assumption that 9 times out of 10 people will be picking Stealth Rock/Spikes over Doom Desire simply because of how dominant they are.

With that in mind, Defog (or Rapid Spin if we hate fun) is actually a great option that still helps with hazards and but doesn't interrupt the main focus of Doom Desire, at least as much. It will take priority if there are dangerous hazards up that actively effect the state of the team, but the more reactionary nature of the move means we have far more reason to be clicking Doom Desire when there are not hazards on the field. Its a great move.

2.) Given our main role as a pivot, are there any beneficial moves that help us to complete our role without infringing on Doom Desire?

Pretty much the stuff above but lets cover the stuff that is bad.

Starting with the pivoting moves, its clear that these would compete far too much with CAP26's MO based on the focus on momentum, overshadowing the entire point of this cap being a pivot. Please do not.

The other one right now is recovery. Recovery moves sound great on paper, as they allow CAP to be able the recover from damage, meaning more switches and more Doom Desires. However, they actually more contest with Doom Desire once again due to the nature of these moves. If you are damaged, why would you not want to use a recovery move over possibly getting KO'd with Doom Desire? Its a move that will be used far more often solely for the interest of self-preservation, with Doom Desire not being used as much if at all. If we want healing for this Pokemon, our teams should preferably have a wish user instead.

Finally, with the flexibility of Doom Desire in mind, are there any other secondary roles that this CAP can achieve using Doom Desire, and if so, what moves highlight these roles?

Nasty Plot is one that people have been bringing up lately for CAP, which I think is an interesting possible option. Its adds to the scare factor of an incoming Doom Desire and boost the other moves as well, making it a very interesting wallbreaker potentially. I would personally say we should still be careful with it to some extent (133 SpA and all) and absolutely be aware of coverage options, but its still a super unique option that I would not be opposed to.
Pivot Moves - No. It is a very strong option on any Pokemon, CAP26 is no exception. It could make Choice Specs more appealing, or could turn into a wall breaker it pivoting capability

Phazing moves
- These should be fine. Works in concept and isn't strong outside of it.

Recovery Move - I am a fan of Leech Seed. It is one of my favorite moves especially on Celesteela. I am against CAP 26 getting it as that would force it to run protect with it and could potentially go against concept. I am a fan of Morning Sun however as it is limited enough to be stalled out and has an actual risk of running.

Hazards and Hazard Removal
- I am generally a fan of Pokemon having the capability of setting up hazards even if it is outclassed at it. It does like the support it gives and prevents the enemy from switching too much. That said I am hesitant about Defog/Rapid Spin. It isn't hindered by hazards itself (Being 4x resistant to SR, Immune to Toxic Spikes and already slow ASSUMING it doesn't take levitate) and might overshadow the concept, especially if given a recovery move.

Coverage - I personally agree with the sentiment that we will have to be careful with this. With 133 SpAtk and above average bulk we could inadvertently turn CAP26 into a bulky attacker that outclasses the main goal. I believe we should approch this with extreme caution.

Status - Sleep and Paralysis could give this 'Mon some utility and could allow avenues to use Doom Desire more reliably.

Trapping - Infestation might be an interesting choice. Trap a Pokemon, Use Doom Desire and Switch to the desired Pokemon. Even if they switch right away they will take two attacks at once, potentially taking out the new Pokemon's counter. No one mentioned it prior, Works in concept and is too weak to use outside of this


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Coverage (Potentially Ice, Fire or Electric): These could be a different way of approaching CAP 26 and could open the possibility to threaten stuff that we would normally struggle with, such as Celesteela, Mega Latias and Latios, and opposing CAP 26. I think Ice coverage in particular could help us capitalize on our matchup against Ground-types like Garchomp and Landorus-T, and makes us have a way of hurting Mega Lati@s without resorting to Steelium Z or Flash Cannon. Of course, having any additional coverage would greatly restrict our other options, and one type of coverage should definitely be as far as we go, because any more than that would always make us very short on moveslots.
Providing CAP26 with coverage is surely one of the easier ways to push Doom Desire out of sets, especially in tandem with other utility moves? Even if we were to include fewer utility moves, it still lessens how much CAP26 wants to use Doom Desire since it has more options for immediate damage. Ice / Ground is nearly perfect coverage on its own, which can easily have two utility options take up the last two slots and be just fine. Fire / Ground type coverage in tandem with Toxic, as we've seen with Smokomodo, is extremely effective, and the last moveslot would likely be Protect or Moonlight (depending on how the recovery discussion plays out). Admittedly Electric / Ground is less jarring than Ice / Ground or Fire / Ground, but it seems to make Celesteela struggle a good bit, especially considering that it's a designated counter. If we are to pick a coverage type, it should be only one, but I'm pretty confident that CAP26 won't even need coverage to be effective.

Regarding Nasty Plot (and consequently, Work Up):
In testing Nasty Plot on Quanyails's test's a little more effective than I thought. Nasty Plot might not be the most balanced option for CAP26 to have. However, all the points I made regarding boosting still hold in my previous post, which is why if we cannot have Nasty Plot, Work Up should honestly be a serviceable replacement (even if it's an otherwise subpar move). It's not completely unprecedented for a pivot to run such a move, as Vileplume runs Growth in NU to relative success. I'm interested to see it in tests!

Regarding recovery
A few games of tests has confirmed that CAP26 is pretty effective even without recovery. Leftovers + Protect keeps it healthy, and with it weaving in Doom Desires with Toxic, it's surprisingly difficult to wear down. I can say with confidence that Recover would be pretty absurd on it (the only chip damage it takes is from burn, Leech Seed, and 3% from Stealth Rock. Whether or not Moonlight is, though, is a better question to consider. I'm leaning towards that we don't need Moonlight, but discussion and tests are young.


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What moves promote the usage of and/or compliment the attack Doom Desire, and enhance its overall effectiveness? In that same vein, what moves decentivize the usage or directly compete with Doom Desire, and hinder its overall effectiveness?

I believe that both Stealth Rock and Defog / Rapid Spin are great options to compliment Doom Desire. Thanks to Doom Desire, Stealth Rock becomes a lot easier to keep up, as the most common Defogger, Tornadus-T, cannot reliably remove them with a Doom Desire walking around. In similar vein, I believe that both Defog and Rapid Spin are great options, seeing how CAP 26 has a good matchup against hazard setters like Mega Tyranitar and Mega Diancie. While Defog is ultimately more reliable, there is a bit of synergy between Rapid Spin and Doom Desire; that synergy being that Doom Desire could hit potential incoming spinblockers. It also allows you to keep up your own Spikes, which is really nice considering that CAP 26 + Arghonaut is an amazing core. Also, I believe that we should not give CAP 26 both Stealth Rock and one of Defog / Rapid Spin, because this will distract it from using Doom Desire. I'd also be wary of giving it both moves simply because it's a very strong combination on a Pokemon like this that could easily make it overbearing within the metagame.

Flash Cannon shouldn't be banned. While I'm well aware that it's the big competition that Doom Desire faces, CAP is really big on the learning about what makes Pokemon competitively good thing. Because of this, I believe that it would actually be better to have Flash Cannon because it's more of a test to see if we truly understood the concept or not.

I think that the issues with U-turn, Volt Switch, and Parting Shot are grossly overstated. CAP 26 essentially has 2 free slots, which you can easily fit one of these pivoting moves in. Doom Desire actually synergizes really well with these moves I think, especially because CAP 26 is pretty slow, meaning that you can get a slow U-turn/Volt Switch out after using Doom Desire. While I understand that the moves can act as a distraction to using Doom Desire in certain situations, I do not believe that this issue outweighs the fact that these moves synergize so well with Doom Desire.

Between U-turn, Volt Switch, and Parting Shot, I prefer Volt Switch as it actually incentivizes using Doom Desire in some way. To be more specific, people will probably use Ground-types to block Volt Switch, which means that CAP 26 can use Doom Desire to force them into a checkmate situation - take a big chunk from Doom Desire, or lose momentum from Volt Switch.

I don't think Nasty Plot should be allowed, especially not if we do end up getting recovery. It's just very overwhelming in practice and I can't possibly see it as a healthy addition to CAP 26's movepool, even though it is really fun to use.

Given our main role as a pivot, are there any beneficial moves that help us to complete our role without infringing on Doom Desire?

Like I explained above, I think Volt Switch is a good move.

I think recovery should definitely be considered too. The issue with using Recover more than Doom Desire is definitely overstated; CAP 26 isn't worn down easily, meaning that it won't have to use Recover so often that it pushes out most opportunities where CAP 26 could be using Doom Desire. For every Recover you get 2 Doom Desire's is kind of how I view it. I do agree that because of how hard CAP 26 is to actually wear down, recovery may be very overwhelming to deal with in the long run. People have also expressed that Morning Sun and Moonlight are downgrades from Recover, but I do not believe that Morning Sun and Moonlight are such a significant downgrade from Recover that'd make them fine if Recover is deemed too much. I do agree that recovery is not something that CAP 26 needs, but if we do come to the conclusion that recovery is not broken, it'd make CAP 26's life so much easier, so it could definitely be a good addition.
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I’m gonna quickly comment on some of the types of moves thrown around so far.

Hazards: Agreeing with Mx and Snake here, Hazards are probably dangerous and not particularly effective for our concept. Even ignoring how often we’d want to click Spikes, Rocks are not much better considering how often removal comes up. These fill the same sort of moveslot as DD, and there’s no use running the risk of completely overshadowing DD in that slot. If we were to go with one, I would heavily lean towards rocks- Jordy's post above really makes me need to try it out to see if my first impressions of sharing a slot are true or just overblown.

Phazing: Big fan of this for the reasons mentioned above. They synergize well with the delayed nature of DD and what CAP26 aims to do- gain momentum.

Recovery: I’m not sure how necessary or realistic recovery is for this mon. It makes us incredibly hard to kill, and very strong because of it. I've talked with some people who have changed my mind a bit about it in terms of concept, but I'm still not a fan in practice, mostly thanks to what Jordy said in his post above. (Man, he beat me to all the points!)

Pivoting: Not a huge fan of these either, though it was a tougher opinion to hold than I thought it would be. The biggest advantage these hold I can see is that they streamline CAP 26’s gameplan: Come in, set a DD, pivot move out to have the momentum upper hand and a DD floating above to further punish. However, this one track path for us raises a few concerns, notably that it could cut DD and just use the momentum-building shell to pivot around well, especially with any sort of utility given to us- but again, that is heavily dependent on how the rest of moves falls together.

All in all, I find myself agreeing with the general sentiment that a stricter, smaller movepool might be the way to go with this project. We have a powerful shell, and are really well set up to do what we’re aiming to do- no need to throw a billion options around. I’ve got to think some more about removal and what coverage works in particular.


Not Exactly Helping
My thoughts on the current discussion points, many of which I'm sure will overlap with stuff mentioned earlier by other posters:

Phazing: I think that, of all of the options listed, phazing is simultaneously one of the least likely moves to supplant Doom Desire on a moveset and also one of the options that best synergizes with it. In my opinion, Dragon Tail makes the most sense as it will prevent you from accidentally phazing a Fairy, which you would typically want to keep in. Whirlwind or Roar could also work as 100% accurate alternatives that also bypass substitute at the cost of not doing any chip damage itself. Though there is one situation I could see where CAP 26 might want to run phazing rather than Doom Desire, which I will get to in a moment.

Hazards: As G-Luke said, Doom Desire supports wallbreakers/sweepers on a team by acting as a "psuedo-hazard" or, as I like to now call it, a phazard. Because of this, I think that hazards, especially Stealth Rock and Spikes have a high chance of replacing Doom Desire if they are available as they do damage on each switch rather than just once per use. If CAP 26 also got some form of phazing, it would likely opt to run Hazards + Phazing more often than Doom Desire + one of the two. I don't think Toxic Spikes or Sticky Web would directly compete with Doom Desire though, but I also don't see those as being pro concept either.

Hazard Removal: Hazard removal on the other hand, doesn't directly compete with Doom Desire, but does provide excellent team support beyond just applying pressure. For example, you might bring CAP 26 in, Defog to remove rocks, use Doom Desire, then Switch out to a rock weak teammate like Volcarona. So hazard removal would synergize well with Doom Desire by actually making it possible to bring in the sweeper necessary for the "checkmate" scenario to occur. As for which hazard removal option it gets, I think Defog is probably the way to go as it also removes screens, which might otherwise make Doom Desire hit like a wet noodle.

Trick Room: While Trick Room is the main move being discussed, I think that other moves such as Rain Dance, Sandstorm, Sunny Day, Hail(lol), and Tailwind all function pretty similarly. I think all of these should at least be considered as they provide utility similar to that of Defog in that they can be used in conjunction with Doom Desire to set up a checkmate scenario that would otherwise be unobtainable with just Doom Desire. Though I'm not certain any of these moves would actually be used.

Pivoting: Personally I'm not convinced this would be too powerful and it's excellent synergy with Doom Desire is fairly evident. While I'm not in the camp of "this mon needs a pivoting move", I see little reason not to give it one of these moves. I'd also like to reiterate my point about Memento and Healing Wish, either of which could be used after a doom desire to put your opponent in a very tough position, potentially winning you the game.

Coverage: Just based on the threatlist, I think Ice would probably be safe coverage, though unnecessary in my opinion. It does hit Celesteela a bit harder than Doom Desire, but uh
252+ SpA CAP 26 Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 80-95 (20.1 - 23.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
It also does hit a couple of our checks, notably the Latis, which are currently very shaky checks anyways and Landorus T. So while I don't think it needs ice coverage, I don't think it's dangerous enough to be banned. As for coverage I do think should be banned, Fire, Grass, and Electric do a bit too much to Pokemon that would otherwise be effective checks/counters. Notably Celesteela, Rotom-Wash, Arghonaut, and Ferrothorn.
252 SpA CAP 26 Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 146-172 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA CAP 26 Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 146-172 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA CAP 26 Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 190-224 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA CAP 26 Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 132+ SpD Arghonaut: 160-190 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA CAP 26 Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 132+ SpD Arghonaut: 160-190 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA CAP 26 Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 268-316 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I'd also like to see Rock coverage kept to a minimum as Volcarona and Charizard would have a much harder time switching in, making them less effective checks. The only other potentially dangerous coverage type I see is Flying, which may be bannable solely based on its interaction with Arghonaut, though it doesn't seem to affect much else.
252 SpA CAP 26 Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 132+ SpD Arghonaut: 196-232 (47.3 - 56%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Status: While these are somewhat pro concept, I don't see them as all that necessary. I'm not really a fan of giving out sleep and paralysis as they are very hax reliant, though both would help a teammate with setting up. And while it obviously has its uses, I don't see burn getting much play over Toxic.

Trapping: This is an interesting one. While it is pro-concept, it is anti-pivoting so we should probably be careful with it. I think giving this Pokemon both SpA boosting and either indefinite or 4-5 turn trapping moves would be too oppressive as it could trap something, use Doom Desire, then freely boost up its SpA. Without SpA boosting, this is much less problematic.

Stat Boosting: While yes, you can get some absurd damage amounts from Nasty Plot boosted Doom Desire, remember that CAP 26 actually have to stay in and survive for all three turns. It may be that Nasty Plot is a bit too powerful, but I haven't really seen it yet. What I believe it shouldn't get though, is Calm Mind. It is already very bulky, I don't think it needs to be able to boost both SpA and SpD.
252 SpA Tapu Lele All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Diglett-Alola: 178-210 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Aurumoth All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Diglett-Alola: 166-196 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Inferno Overdrive (180 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Diglett-Alola: 276-326 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This, along with recovery of any type(Pinch Berries, Leftovers, Leech Seed, Pain Split, etc) would make CAP 26 very hard for any special attacker to deal with.

Recovery: This is the big one, recovery. CAP 26's combination of excellent defensive typing, two great defensive abilities, and high level of bulk, I think, make unconditional 50% recovery far too powerful for this Pokemon. I'd count synthesis/moonlight in as "unconditional" as the weathers that hamper them are uncommon and easy to see coming. Moonlight has been suggested as a weaker version of the standard recover, mainly based on it having less PP. This though will only come up occasionally, 8 is usually more than enough, so I don't see this as an adequate nerf.

A few options I think would probably be fine are Purify or Swallow, though both of those are pretty bad. Pain Split is another option, though with our HP stat over 100, it would likely see little use. I considered draining moves as well, but they all either give CAP 26 decent coverage against things it shouldn't have coverage for(Giga Drain and Parabolic Charge) or are just far too weak (the rest). The most promising recover option would probably be leech seed as it's not nearly as difficult to deal with as recover variants and is actually good enough to be used. Additionally, it provides team support that doesn't directly compete with Doom Desire, which is kind of the point of this mon.


Sugar, Spice and One for All
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Ok, we had some great discussion so far, gaining insight on just how well CAP 26 can perform and what we moves can fit the bill. In addition, we have reached a consensus on several moves.

Defog / Rapid Spin: I think we have all agreed that hazard removal is a strong utility option for CAP 26, thanks to our fantastic matchup versus several top hazard setters in the tier, in addition to CAP 26 in general taking little from hazards thanks to Levitate and its Steel / Ground typing giving it a x4 resistance to Stealth Rock. I think it is safe to say these moves can be seen on CAP 26.

Phazing: As expected, one of the most apparent forms of Doom Desire synergy has garnered universal support. Dragon Tail in particular has been highlighted thanks to Fairies being immune to being phazed by the move, allowing Doom Desire shuffling to not be impeded by switching in a Fairy type on the expected phazing move, therefore protecting it from being caught by Doom Desire.

Spikes: This move on the other hand, has been discussed and the general consensus is that Spikes is a very anti-concept move. Spikes will directly compete with Doom Desire in clicking on free turns, and unlike Stealth Rock which would be set once early game when Doom Desire may not even be optimal and only be reset if cleared, Spikes can be set multiple times for various turns, leaving little room for Doom Desire usage. So with that and its dominance in the current metagame considered, Spikes will be deemed a Disallowed Move going forward. Toxic Spikes will also fall in here via proxy. Stealth Rock, however, is still suspect and very much warrants more discussion.

Some moves on the other hand, are pretty controversial and have thoughts torn.

Coverage: Many have said that viable coverage should be heavily limited on CAP 26, as it gives DD too much competition, pushing it out of a set. However, I have seen a few arguments describing certain coverage options, like Ice Beam or Thunderbolt, to not be too crazy, and I definitely would want to see both discussion and evidence to support these claims. I think it should go without saying that Fire coverage is banned, as several Fire and Ground type Pokémon in the current metagame have proven just how potent the combination is, with it also effectively eliminating Celesteela as a counter.

Pivoting moves: Several arguments have been presented for and against pivoting moves, with some saying pivoting moves pair excellently with DD, some saying it streamlines how CAP 26 will play to a narrow degree, and some saying that, especially in combination with other utility moves, will outright force out DD on a moveset. I hope to see some discussion to further develop these thoughts, as these moves have a big impact on how CAP 26 will see play.

Recovery moves: Thanks to Quanyails's test server, we have seen first hand on how recovery will fit on CAP 26. Several persons have clearly stated their displeasure with recovery, as thanks to CAP 26's excellent bulk, and difficulty to be worn down by indirect damage (being immune to Spikes, Poison damage, Sandstorm chip and only taking 3% from Stealth Rock), access to Recovery will push it over the edge, making CAP 26 near impossible to kill outside of strong super effective attacks. With the addition of Bulletproof this is more apparent, as CAP 26 can be potentially be immune to two different means of damaging it. A strong outlier, however, has thrown in their support for recovery, saying that it gives us more opportunities to set Doom Desire, and it solves the issue that we have discussed earlier about CAP 26 being worn down by various attacks throughout the match, thanks to our main role as a pivot. I definitely want more discussion, with examples, as to why we should allow or disallow these moves.

Set Up: Another controversial area of moves, set up has been a hot topic recently, with test battles and calcs alike showing just how destructive Doom Desire can be with a boost behind it. Some people have shown support for set up in general, while some are apprehensive about Nasty Plot in particular, but are open to other options like Work Up. The main argument here is that set up gives us an interesting avenue for DD usage. Detractors have said, however, that set up is too strong, having too much negative impact on teambuilding for its own good. A few have even stated how it enables Flash Cannon over DD (more on that later). I would like to see a lot more discussion here: Is set up overall too strong? Is Nasty Plot in particular the real issue? Is it all ok?

A move that has not seen much discussion surprisingly, is Flash Cannon. Early on in the process, people have debated that the move is clearly anti concept and that it should be banned, thanks to directly competing with Doom Desire. Others have argued that Flash Cannon on its own, however, simply is not enough to place any real stress on DD, and with the addition of Bulletproof, removes the need to actively pressure Pokémon like Tapu Lele and Aurumoth with single turn moves.

I will be giving some extra time to users to discuss all of these before opening up Movesets, so please let's get to it.
I know I'm late to the party, but I am very wary of allowing CAP 26 to get Defog or Rapid Spin. We have created a Ground-immune and Electric-immune Steel-type that laughs off hazards and has very strong stats. This mon could easily shift from a Doom Desire pivot into a "defensive glue" mon that leverages its plethora of resistances and immunities to complete a defensive core.

What I'm most scared of is allowing a combination of utility moves that might allow for an entirely support-focused mon that simply forgoes Doom Desire in favor of defensive strength mixed with hazard control. For example, access to all three of recovery, Stealth Rock, and Defog (or Rapid Spin) may very well result in a CAP that would want to run Earth Power + 3 utility moves. Hazard control and recovery go hand-in-hand, especially on a toxic-immune mon, meaning that CAP 26 with access to both will probably always have 2 moveslots dedicated to non-DD moves.

Sorry for the rushed and poorly organized post, work/school have been crazy busy these past few days and my phone battery is currently dying. I just wanted to get my thoughts out there.
I am of a mind with snake, generally speaking, for a reason I mentioned a few threads ago: the Scott Evil "Why Don't You Just Shoot Him?" problem.

Doom Desire has a lot of a huuuuuuge momentum cost. The only Pokemon capable of using it currently is in the meta, but never ever uses it despite a better BST than us. Part of that, for sure, is that it has an ability that strongly incentivizes other attacks in Serene Grace, wheras our defensive ability doesn't bias our move selection in any noticeable way. But I'd argue part of that is well as that it has a movepool so full of goodies that the question quickly becomes...why would I bother with this two-turn delayed gimmick when I can just "shoot them" by influencing the battle immediately with a more reliable attack or for a longer term with Hazards or Cleric abilities?

We have worse BST than Jirachi, but we also have a significantly more powerful typing, an amazing secondary STAB, a great pair of defensive abilities, and a stat spread built for maiming fools and tanking hits. Movepool is where we need to be cautious, I think, to ensure that we don't completely ruin the concept by giving CAP 26 too many tools.

G-Luke posted as I was typing, so here's my thoughts that are still relevant.

Status: We'll also have the ability to spread status since it'd be unprecedented to deny this 'mon Toxic, but I also think that Thunder Wave or Glare would be fascinating and good. Paralysis cripples offensive switch-ins, leaving them very vulnerable to DD + a hit from us or our partners, and seems like a great way to support this concept without being overbearing by providing Sleep instead. It's been a long time since we've seen a 'mon rely on Parahax but CAP 26 seems uniquely suited to doing so. Burns are the last thing, and I am torn. Several of our C&C , specifically Celesteela and Ferrothorn, would despise eating a Will-o-Wisp, and Latios and Tyranitar would have a much harder time with us as well. But! Chip Damage + stat drops do seem an effective way to support our concept. Will-o-Wisp hasn't been meta relevant in a long time, but would be interesting.

Stat drops: also seems like a theoretically interesting way to support Doom Desire...but not realistic, honestly. Most stat-dropping moves are considered too weak to take a move slot. Fake Tears and Metal Sound accomplish something similar to say Nasty Plot while also being more pivot-y, but they are also momentum sinks and will likely be unused compared to DD. Ditto something like Feather Dance or Confide - in theory, these greatly augment our bulk, encourage opponents to lose turns on switches, and aid as a pivot instead of rewarding us just staying in forever, but practically I imagine they will be unused. Possibly worth discussing? These moves have not, in the history of Pokemon, been super viable. Most Stat-dropping moves that are competitively powerful are powerful for the secondary effect and something like, say, King's Shield or Sap Strength are so overwhelmingly powerful that it will unbalance the CAP.

Hazards: I agree with Snake; if I can set up a delayed effect that damages all my opponents mons until they spend a turn removing the effect, or do a one-shot they can play around...I will take the hazards every time. I am glad Spikes are banned, but I also think Stealth Rock is just too much. Unless we gut this thing's movepool everywhere else, I fear Hazards just replace DD on most sets.

Powerful Special Coverage: Opinion: If CAP 26 primarly utilizes AV or Choice Specs it is likely to NOT use DD and we will have failed. The more coverage CAP 26 has, the more likely we are to choke DD out of the movepool as CAP feels more compelled to run a AV or Choice Specs set and utilize its bulk to bully things without bothering with DD. We also become increasingly less likely to be a pivot if we can just smash all our C&C with coverage. Since Earth Power + (your choice of Hidden Power to handle specific threats) is already sooo powerful alongside Steel STAB for fairies and rocks, I think we should be insanely conservative with what other coverage we should allow CAP 26 to have access to. I'll dedicate the rest of my post to this, with a few calcs:
Bug: I would vote to Disallow Bug coverage above 60 BP because of how dangerous it is to the Latis and to Greninja on the switch. Bug Buzz would be nice to threaten Aurumoth, but I think it does a little too much to our C&C.
0+ SpA Excadrill Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 174-206 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ SpA Excadrill Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 146-172 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO
0+ SpA Excadrill Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja-Ash: 242-286 (84.9 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Dragon: I would vote to disallow Special Dragon coverage but don't feel as strongly about it as I do bug. Dragon would provide a strong neutral move while mangling the Latis which is bad, but that's only two of our C&C. A conservative approach says we should disallow it but it isn't as dangerous as Bug or some of the below.
0+ SpA Excadrill Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 164-194 (54.4 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ SpA Excadrill Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 122-144 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Dark: Is a problem for the same reason Bug and Dragon coverage are a problem. This does improve a few match-ups (Pajantom, Necturna, Aurumoth) but not any we specifically care about. Because the strongest move here is 80 BP, however, it may be fine to allow this coverage.

Electric: If Fire is preemptively banned for being dangerous against Celesteela, we should feel the same way about Electric coverage as it also smashes Celesteela while also threatening Arghonaut and Greninja. Thunderbolt is absolutely too much, and even Discharge would be a big uncomfortable. Despite this significantly improving our Matchup versus Tornadus-T, I think we should Disallow Electric Coverage above 60 BP.

Fairy: Feel like a broken record - it crushes the Latis and Greninja, should probably be Disallowed.

Fighting: Should be Disallowed. Surprisingly non-threatening versus Chansey, but very powerful against Greninja and Tyranitar and is so broadly effective and powerful that I fear it'd highly incentivize an AV or CS set.

Flying: It's a shame that most special flying attacks are butt, as it would actually make for great coverage - yeah, it messes with Arghonaut a bit (and thus I think Hurricane is too much), but an 80-90 BP move would be a great way for us to be able to mangle Necturna, Aurumoth, Medicham-M, and Tangrowth without hurting our C&C much at all. I think anything barring Hurricane is allowable and solid.

Ghost: Hits all the same things Dark hits and so I feel the same way about it.

Grass: Should be Disallowed as in addition to threatening Greninja and Arghonaut just like Electric would, it also allows us to bust Rotom-W who would otherwise wall us.
0+ SpA Excadrill Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Ice: Everything I said about this as a problem with the Latis continues to hold true. HP Ice is "enough" to mangle Landorus-T and Garchomp and I think it'd be overkill to give this thing anything more powerful. Disallow anything greater than 60 BP.
0+ SpA Excadrill Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 276-328 (77.3 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Normal: Lol.

Poison: Is fine in that it is useless. Nothing on our C&C list cares about poison, we hit almost all fairies harder with Steel than we will with poison coverage, and many of the most relevant grass types shed their weakness to this. It would help to truly obliterate Jumbao, a 'mon we already match well against, but is not essential.

Psychic: Only really threatens Arghonaut and even then it's a 3HKO, but it also doesn't really help in any relevant match-ups in the meta. I'd say this is unlikely to be used and is fine and mostly unobjectionable and unexciting coverage for CAP 26.

Rock: At first I wanted this since it'd help versus Aurumoth and Power Gem is only 70 BP, but there are safer ways to give ourselves the ability to handle Aurumoth if we really wanna without having a move that OHKOs Charizard-Y. As 'Zard-Y is one of the least essential parts of our list, however, I don't think we need to disallow it.

Water: Is also fine in that it does nothing for us. Helps versus Lando-T, does nothing versus our C&C list, and does nothing against any really key threats that we can't already do with Earth Power + Flash Cannon.

In summary, TL;DR Format:
Totally Fine Coverage: Water, Psychic, Poison, Normal, Flying (except Hurricane)

Possibly Dangerous Coverage, but worth considering: Ghost, Dark, Dragon, Rock

Should be Disallowed: Bug, Electric, Fairy, Fighting, Grass, Ice

Flash Cannon: My heart says we should have Flash Cannon because it'd be, like, totally lame if we didn't. More practically speaking, we will have an extremely hard time threatening Tapu Lele and Jumbao without Flash Cannon, even with the addition of Bulletproof to our arsenal. But conservatively and logically speaking? I think we look a LOT like a good AV user despite having no recovery, and Flash Cannon incentivizes that (and on such a set, I fear decentivizes Doom Desire). I think the thing we need to be mindful is is that we really need to choose -

A) CAP 26 has Flash Cannon
B) CAP 26 has good utility like Rapid Spin/Defog, Thunder Wave, Screens, set-up, etc.

Because my worry is if CAP has both...well, why don't we just shoot them with Flash Cannon?

Deck Knight

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I want to reinforce some of the ideas already mentioned in the thread with regard to Proactive Utility vs. Reactive Utility. I would also like to mention two other categories I think are relevant, which are Conditional Utility and Set Up.

Proactive Utility is utility that you want to initiate because of it's immediate value. Examples of proactive utility would be Toxic, Burn, Direct Pivoting Moves, Hazards, Knock Off, etc. These are moves you would use to set up your win condition or wear down your opponent generally.

Reactive Utility is utility you use to counteract an opponent's proactive utility. This would be moves like Rapid Spin / Defog, Aromatherapy / Heal Bell, etc.

Conditional Utility is utility that is enhanced based on your other utility selections. Phazing is the best example here, where it has some value on its own and leans towards reactive utility (it reacts to an opponent's setup), but if you are on a hazard setting team phazing suddenly becomes much more proactive. Recovery is also a good example. In the general sense it is very reactive to an opponent's damaging attacks, however if combined with Set Up it can allow you to get an unstoppable sweep rolling. Mega Charizard X's Dragon Dance + Roost set is a good example of when Recovery shifts from being reactive to pro-active based on conditions. Paralysis falls under this category somewhat because Paralysis, while annoying, doesn't accrue as much direct weardown benefit and is actually a hindrance on slower opponents that would have been crippled more by Toxic or Burn.

Set Up is exactly what it says, basically moves you don't lead with unless you think you have significant opportunity to trade off a damaging move for a set up. Set Up can be tricky thing to navigate with this concept. Offensive setup is strongly linked with Proactive Utility, and defensive setup is rare because it's reactive but often too late to set up.

Now that I've defined some terms, a little expansion:

Proactive Utility
directly competes with Doom Desire for a slot. The question when it comes to proactive utility is the degree to which it competes. Hazards have a high degree of competition, Toxic, Burn is much lower (because of immunities, Regenerator core, its slow acting nature, etc.) Knock Off competes initially but once a few items are knocked off (or there are Megas Z-Crystals) it decreases in value. Direct Pivoting Moves are so attractive to click they also compete heavily. I think proactive utility should be avoided, especially for moves like hazards that are strongly proactive. The unavoidable move that skirts this line is Toxic, but Toxic has never broken anything before and it will not for this project. Doom Desire and Toxic can work as a pair and can fit on the same set without one overshadowing the other.

Reactive Utility is where I think we can be lenient in the movepool stage. Without setting its own hazards (bar Doom Desire as a "phazard"), phazing falls from the conditional category into the reactive category and is desirable for causing checkmate scenarios. It may be random, but it shakes scenarios up enough to be helpful. There's also no harm in Aromatherapy / Heal Bell as they are purely reactive. Defense boosters would also fall into this category.

Conditional Utility and Set Up is something we should monitor closely, especially recovery. Too many other kinds of utility combined with Set Up can quickly cause recovery to get out of hand. Similarly, if CAP 26 can set hazards than phazing also becomes more proactive utility and CAP 26 has less incentive to run Doom Desire. Doom Desire / Stealth Rock / Dragon Tail / Earth Power seems like far too passive a set, and perhaps if those were the only options it would be alright but if some form of recovery were allowed it might squeeze out Doom Desire.

On specific moves, one that hasn't been mentioned yet which aids Doom Desire is Destiny Bond. Destiny Bond places the opponent in a strange position where KOing CAP 26 requires a sacrifice, or the opponent can decline and CAP 26 can set up a Doom Desire. Destiny Bond no longer works consecutively so it can't be used in that way, but even the binary option of using Destiny Bond on a slow Pokemon to provide cover for launching a Doom Desire has its own appeal.

Charge Beam I think is also fine and pro-concept. It is too weak to legitimately overwhelm Celesteela, and the SpA boost can aid Doom Desire if it has not struck yet.

On Flash Cannon:

In an objective sense, yes, Flash Cannon does compete with Doom Desire as competent immediate damage vs a much stronger later hit. It also has the most competitive Z-alternative at 160 BP vs 200 BP. However, I think as each CAP is an experiment and we should be willing to take a risk, I feel as a matter of principle we should not prohibit Flash Cannon because it is so unnatural for a Pokemon of this kind. While we have the ability to ensure a Steel special attack cannot possibly overshadow Doom Desire by forcing Mirror Shot, I do not think that is a healthy response.

Nasty Plot vs Work Up vs Calm Mind Defensive Boosters:

I think the test server will help suss this out. CAP 26 has a very concentrated statline and Nasty Plot might be too much. Calm Mind might also be too much as a way to slowly overcome opponents with Flash Cannon as opposed to incentivizing Doom Desire. However Work Up should be fine, and I can also see a place for Curse, Iron Defense, and Amnesia.

On Coverage:

We should be very, very wary of coverage. CAP 26 has 133 SpA and a strong incentive to run Modest. As much as I like the idea of something like Psyshock, Electric/Fairy/Flying/Psychic and Grass coverage would invalidate Arghonaut and Rotom-W as Counters. As Would Fire and Electric for Celesteela. As such I would propose a prohibition of Special Fairy, Fire, Flying, Electric, Psychic, and Grass coverage stronger than 60 BP.

I also strongly oppose all Ice Coverage. Ground + Ice is a fantastic offensive pairing that will overshadow the use of Doom Desire. Any Ice move outside of Hidden Power will also allow Subzero Slammer, which is something I think we should avoid entirely.

What does that leave? Normal, Bug, Dark, Dragon, Fighting, Ghost, Poison, Rock, and Water. While I still believe we should exercise restraint on any high-powered moves, I feel like Dark, Dragon, Fighting, and Ghost are the least problematic. We should do everything we can to avoid a Specs set becoming viable, but I don't think something like Doom Desire / Earth Power / HP Ice / Aura Sphere is out of line for an attacking set.


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Built a couple teams, had a couple games. Here's my thoughts:

Defog / Rapid Spin: I have run one of these on almost all of my test CAP 26 teams. They feel great to use and don't conflict with Doom Desire in practice.

Recovery moves: In practice, Recovery ends up being very pro-concept. It lets you preserve CAP 26 to the point where you're freer to throw out Doom Desires rather than prioritizing immediate damage or trying to be really careful with each particular turn. Though there are turns where you might click Morning Sun when someone might say it takes a turn away from Doom Desire, it opens up 2 to 3 more turns that 26 is alive to click Doom Desires later. This caused me to become a big proponent of recovery, but after further play, it's become apparent that recovery on this mon is just insanely good. Tanking Specs-boosted STAB attacks, recovering up under a Doom Desire, asking what's dyin', out-recovering Rotom's Hydro Pumps - it's a lot. This is why I was originally a proponent of hindered recovery through 8 PP moves like Morning Sun, Moonlight, Synthesis, etc. However, I think it's in the best interest of the metagame to ban 50% recovery moves on this Pokemon. CAP 26 is more than capable of surviving in the meta without this level of recovery, be it through Berries or Lefties alone. Leech Seed merits a separate discussion - I doubt it's overpowering on 26, but as far as recovery goes, it's the only one that could really interfere with DD space (chipping etc). This should be tested through games to see how the actual turns play out for 26's that choose to run both DD and Leech Seed.

Glare: Continuing on the theme of the health of the metagame, Glare is insanely oppressive. While it does partner quite well with Doom Desire in practice due to the switches it forces, as most status effects do, it would make this meta absolutely miserable to play in due to how absolutely free clicking Glare is. I am on the fence about Thunder Wave, but Glare is a strong no from me.

Setup: Because of the way I tend to build more offensively, I haven't had an issue with Nasty Plot setup. However, I understand the concern, and would still like to see Work Up (or other +1 SpA moves) at the minimum as an option because it does not seem oppressive and plays on the flexibility of Doom Desire. As for simultaneous defensive and offensive boosting ala Calm Mind, I believe it would be too strong on this mon, since it's already difficult to kill and hits like a truck. Curse is an exception to this imo due to our heavily hampered Attack stat. I recommend banning Calm Mind. Because I've recommended Recovery be banned, I don't think Nasty Plot will be overbearing, but I'm very open to other people's opinions on this.

Stealth Rock: I admittedly haven't tested this one as thoroughly yet, but I will just state my thoughts that I don't believe it conflicts with Doom Desire due to in-game usage. You use rocks early-game where the opponent has more options to respond to a potential Doom Desire, so you wouldn't want to use Doom Desire on those turns. You also use Stealth Rock if hazards get removed, but you still need a damaging option other than Earth Power if you don't want Torn and friends to constantly come in on you and remove your Rocks, which is a good place for Doom Desire to come in, not just to punish Torn but its team as a whole. While they function similarly, Doom Desire and Stealth Rock work well in tandem rather than competing for a slot.

The 26 Mirror Match: With CAP 26 as a defensive answer to itself, we have to be cognizant of how the CAP 26 mirror match affects the health of the metagame. With recovery banned and phazing as a favorably viewed option, it should be alright, but avoiding situations where CAP 26 dittos involve draining all their PP because the first one to switch out loses momentum or a mon should be avoided. This shouldn't be a priority since it can also be avoided through good teambuilding, it's just something I wanted to bring up for us to keep in the back of our minds as we move forward and continue to playtest.

Flash Cannon: In my opinion, this is the ultimate litmus test. I agree with Deck Knight here - while Flash Cannon presents the biggest opportunity to "fail the concept," it gives us the biggest opportunity to learn, which is what the spirit of CAP is all about. Without a decent one-turn Steel STAB move, we won't know if we succeeded in tuning CAP 26 to the point of really wanting to use Doom Desire without forcing it into it through excessive restrictions, preventing us from really understanding what's necessary to make delayed attacks work and removing our opportunity to see how players would choose to build with CAP 26 and whether Doom Desire sets will organically develop through its time in the CAP metagame.

Additional thoughts: 26 is fun, feels like a natural fit on BO, and doesn't need coverage to succeed. Also, I tried Gravity on it but all it did was give the opponent more options to revenge my 26 rather than constricting what they could do. Not a competitive move on it imo.
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Not Exactly Helping
Here are a couple of replays to show how powerful recovery, even moonlight, would be on CAP 26. Since most people will be unable/unwilling to download and open a random html file they got off some sketchy download site, I'll be providing the text logs and summarizing the battles.

Me vs Quziel - Text
There's not a ton of recovery done here, but towards the end, my CAP 26 is able to easily take out lele, while taking specs and terrain boosted Psychics and ending up near full health. Additionally, had I recovered instead of earth powered with CAP 26, it would've been able to just heal off Kril's Surf, which did 50%.

Me vs Cbrevan - Text
In this battle, Cbrevan somehow tricked me into playing stall. My CAP 26 doesn't get the opportunity to use moonlight, but Cbrevan was using recover on his. Despite having his CAP 26 in quite often taking a lot of hits and it being alive at the end of the match, by the end of this 144 turn game, he only had to click recover on it six times.

While this is only two matches, I think it shows both the potential power of recovery on CAP 26 and that Moonlight is not a big enough step down from Recover for it to be OK.
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Master Procraster
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Haven't had time to hop on the test server for some fights due to finals, so these are just logic based thoughts at the moment.

I echo GMars and others on the topic of Flash Cannon, it needs to stay. The entire point of this process is to incentivise Doom Desire usage and removing the only other Steel-type STAB that can reasonably compete and compare with just railroads the CAP exactly how we want it, not actually seeing if it works the way we would like it.

Once again no time in the test sim yet, but Recovery sounds very anti-metagame both on paper and in practice so far. Considering CAP has eliminated multiple different weakness through its abilities and is packing some serious bulk with a solid typing, recovery has proven so far to be a very large issue in the manner of being practically unkillable, like early Snael but for real this time. I understand CAP has a tendency to overestimate stuff and it is very possible we are overreacting, but this is something that does indeed look very good no matter how you spin it, so adding recovery would just propel it to the realm of just straight stupid, even if it is technically pro-concept. We do not need a Rebalancing Process right out the gate.

Most other stuff I need to actively test, so these are my thoughts for now.


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Ok! I think we have had a great discussion on what moves can towards the strengths of Doom Desire, and which ones are either too potent or simply anti concept. Now that this is complete, I believe we are in the right position to open the moveset submissions.

Here is a breakdown of the status regarding all of the undecided moves.

Set Up: The major gripe with set up was that CAP 26 may become too powerful with the ability to boost the power of its Doom Desire. With first-hand playtesting and the accounts of several users, Nasty Plot was shown to be simply too overbearing, allowing CAP 26 to break through all but the sturdiest of counters, most of which are crippled by Toxic anyways. Thus, Nasty Plot is banned. Work Up however, was deemed acceptable, as it took much longer to reach the same power level as Nasty Plot, giving opponents time to appropriately react.

Recovery: 50% recovery attacks are simply too strong on a Pokémon with its level of staying power. This allows it to easily outlast its counters, as most either lack reliable recovery themselves or are vulnerable to Toxic. Even the reduced PP of Moonlight and Morning Sun was not enough of a deterrent, as it has been proven that CAP 26 does not need to constantly click them to heal. Thus, 50% recovery moves are banned.

Coverage: In regards to coverage, specifically Ice and Electric, it was quickly agreed that both of these are terrible options, for different reasons. Ice Coverage splashes with CAP 26's Ground STAB perfectly well, making it extremely likely that it would drop Doom Desire for Ice type attacks. Electric moves were deemed way too risky, as it gives CAP 26 a means of breaking past near all of its counters. With those thoughts considered, both of these coverage options are banned.

Also, the issue of Stealth Rock versus Hazard Removal on CAP 26 is still at large, so if you are presenting a set featuring either of these, you must not only explain why each is important on the set, but also why it is better than the other, as CAP 26 will not be having a combination of both.

Now, onto the meat of the matter,Movesets are officially open! Before posting, I would like for everyone to pay keen attention. I will be be careful to examine all submissions in keen detail, as we cannot afford to overload CAP 26 with an abundance if moves to overshadow Doom Desire.

We should also bear in mind the C&C and overall balance when crafting Moveset Submissions, as suggesting sets that have the possibility of pushing CAP 26 over the edge cannot be permitted. The checklist will ensure that we do not give CAP 26 means to break past our described checks. This means that for every set, I require a detailed explanation for each suggested move on the set.

In addition to all off that, our very own Quanyails has provided us with a server that we can use to playtest our own suggested movesets, so I suggest that everyone who is crafting movesets to please hop on over to the server to test them out. The link to the server is here ->

Well let's begin!


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Moveset Submission

Name: Jacked Up Doom Desire
Move 1: Work Up / Metal Sound
Move 2: Doom Desire
Move 3: Earth Power
Move 4: Toxic / Protect / Defog
Ability: Levitate
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 40 SpA / 88 SpD / 68 Spe
Nature: Modest
  • Work Up boosts CAP26's stats rather slowly, while Metal Sound debuffs the opponent's Special Defense. Either way, it forces the opponent to question whether CAP26 will want to stay in and make Doom Desire hurt or CAP26 will switch out to a wallbreaking teammate.
  • Earth Power complements Doom Desire well, hitting a lot of switch-ins that resist Steel-type damage.
  • Toxic allows CAP26 to punish Arghonaut and Rotom-W, its two hardest counters.
  • Protect stalls out for Leftovers recovery and can help Doom Desire connect with a Work Up boost.
  • Defog can be used for the role compression and has been supported throughout this thread as a good utility option for CAP26.
    • Rapid Spin could be used in this slot instead? Either way, hazard removal is a good option for CAP26.
  • EV Spread and Nature are the sample spread that Jordy attached to his stat spread.
Remember G-Luke's 3rd question? This is one set that spawns from it. It still has great advantages as a pivot, but it trades some of that ability for a little more offense. This is just a formal entry to solidify its presence in the thread.

Now, for my anti-pivoting argument:

Name: Uh oh what happened to Doom Desire Mk. 1
Move 1: U-turn / Volt Switch
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Toxic
Move 4: Defog / Protect
Ability: Levitate
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 40 SpA / 88 SpD / 68 Spe
Nature: Modest
  • As we can see, U-turn / Volt Switch has supplanted Doom Desire, as U-turn and Volt Switch gain momentum for CAP26 more easily than Doom Desire's ability to force the opponent to make awkward switches.
  • Earth Power + Toxic more than makes up for any damage output that CAP26 would lose from eschewing Doom Desire due to its survivability Remember that CAP26 cannot be chipped down easily, taking 3% damage from Stealth Rock, burn damage, and Leech Seed damage as its ONLY sources of residual damage.
  • One could argue that removing Defog would solve the problem of the pivoting move taking away a moveslot for Doom Desire, but Protect could easily take Defog's place to stall for Leftovers recovery (which is important with 50% moves banned)
This set is why I don't like U-turn / Volt Switch. CAP26 does lose out on a lot of offensive presence by removing Doom Desire, but its defensive advantages with Levitate + its typing + its bulk allow for a set like this to be possible. If CAP26 can use U-turn / Volt Switch to gain momentum effortlessly, rather than use Doom Desire to do so, why would it choose to run Doom Desire the majority of the time?


Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Name: DOOOM (Bulky Attacker)
Move 1: Doom Desire
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Dragon Tail / Circle Throw
Move 4: Rapid Spin
Ability: Levitate
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Sassy

- Doom Desire nukes opponents in a few turns and is the endgame for our concept.
- Earth Power is a more reliable STAB move than Doom Desire that hits most Pokemon neutrally and can beat Steel-types that otherwise resist Doom Desire.
- Dragon Tail is a move that phazes foes out into something more optimal for our Doom Desire to hit, puts more pressure on the opponent, and can work with other hazards for chip damage to soften foes before a DD drops. It also creates Doom Desire-based mindgames with Fairy-types like Tapu Lele and Jumbao, as well as gives us the opportunity to phaze out Necturna. Circle Throw is also an option to hit AV Magnezone.
- Rapid Spin remove dangerous hazards on the field, which works well with our current typing and does not conflict with Doom Desire. Rapid Spin is prefered as it only removes one side, meaning chip is still possible with Circle Throw/Dragon Tail.
- Levitate removes major ground weaknesses and a lot of physical coverage.
- Lefties heals CAP over time for supplemental healing to increase survivability.
- Fully investment into gives good special girth, not looking into specific investments rn.
- Sassy adds to above with little consequence due to speed stat.

A set that capitalizes on the possible phazing aspects CAP could have. Likes a setter for hazards before hand, preferably Ferrothorn to help with Rotom-Wash. The random element from phazing results in a lot better scenarios for us and far less for them, although its less great to use the turn Doom Desire is coming down. Its a great option that should be included in sets. Hazard removal was just an additional point to work with, particularly on the Rapid Spin argument. It can be traded out for other means such as Toxic and Protect to possibly stall turns.

Edit: Edited set to better accomodate discussion later in thread.
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