CAP 27 - Part 13 - Flavor Ability Discussion

[Quanyails]

CAP 27 So Far

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Some general rules for this discussion:

• Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
• There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.

The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

Flavor Ability banlist

Air Lock
Arena Trap
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Color Change
Dark Aura
Dauntless Shield
Defeatist
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise
Fairy Aura
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Fur Coat
Gorilla Tactics
Gulp Missile
Huge Power
Hunger Switch
Ice Face
Ice Scales
Illusion
Imposter
Intrepid Sword
Libero
Mimicry
Moody
Multitype
Neuroforce
Parental Bond
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor
Protean
Pure Power
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield
Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Slow Start
Soul Heart
Stance Change
Teravolt
Truant
Turboblaze
Victory Star
Water Bubble
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Beast Boost
Comatose
Drizzle
Drought
Electric Surge
Fluffy
Grassy Surge
Innards Out
Magic Bounce
Magic Guard
Misty Surge
Prankster
Psychic Surge
Punk Rock
Sand Spit
Sand Stream
Snow Warning
Speed Boost
Stamina
Steam Engine
Triage

 

[Quanyails]

In the interest of time, we're opening CAP 27 flavor ability discussion early.

We will first begin with a 24-hour discussion on how many flavor abilities CAP 27 should receive (0, 1, or 2). No specific abilities may be discussed at this time.

If the consensus is to give CAP 27 at least one flavor ability, we will then open flavor ability discussion for 48 hours. All slated options will go through two rounds of voting--one for the first flavor ability (if applicable) and one for the second flavor ability (if applicable).

 

[Dogfish44]

Looking across non-legendary Pokémon from Generation 8, I count well over half having three abilities, becoming only more prevalent as you look towards substantially stronger Pokémon. I think that precedent best points us towards two flavour abilities this time!

I think One Ability (aka No Flavour Ability) should be right out the window as well - the only examples I found were Stonjourner, Morpeko, Eiscue, and Cramorant, all of which feature new unique abilities, of which three are also forme-related anyhow.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I want to echo Dog's points! In Gen 8 pretty much all of the higher BST Pokemon have three abilities, Dragon and Fire Pokemon in particular fit this, with examples like Coalossal, Dragapult, Applin line and Centiskorch all having three abilities.

Also worth considering is that every single Pokemon with Regenerator except for Amoonguss and Tornadus-T have three abilities.

As such I support two flavour abilities.

 

[Zephyri]

I agree with Dogfish's point as well, although to a lesser extent. I think the option of having only one flavor ability should definitely be considered. Although a lot of fully-evolved pokemon have three abilities, i think it should be noted that a lot of those fully-evolved pokemon have some kind of new, special signature ability (Ripen for the applin line, punk rock for the toxtricity line, steam engine for coalossal, Screen Cleaner for Mr. Rime, Steely Spirit for perserkerr, etc.). Since CAP27 is not going to have a new, signature ability, I find no need for it to have two flavor abilities. Note that I emphasized on "need", implying that I think both a single and double flavor ability could work, and i do not have a favorite of the two.

 

[Voltage]

I'm in the camp where I think it would be good to have at least one flavor ability but two isn't a necessity. My sentiment stems from the fact that, in general stems from Zephyr's point as well, that a lot of the Pokemon with three abilities typically have one of those abilities being a newly introduced one (Steam Engine, Ripen, Screen Cleaner, etc.) If we decide that we want two, that's ultimate no burden to Astroltl in my opinion. In a very laconic sense, I don't have strong feelings whether or not Astro gets one or two flavor abilities, but I do have strong feelings that Astro SHOULD get at least one flavor ability.

 

[Roland le preaux]

I don't feel like I have a ton to add to the discussion here, but I think 2 flavor abilities is fitting based on the trends we've seen in Generation 8.

 

[Krazyguy75]

I'm in the camp where I think it would be good to have at least one flavor ability but two isn't a necessity. My sentiment stems from the fact that, in general stems from Zephyr's point as well, that a lot of the Pokemon with three abilities typically have one of those abilities being a newly introduced one (Steam Engine, Ripen, Screen Cleaner, etc.) If we decide that we want two, that's ultimate no burden to Astroltl in my opinion. In a very laconic sense, I don't have strong feelings whether or not Astro gets one or two flavor abilities, but I do have strong feelings that Astro SHOULD get at least one flavor ability.

Sure, most pokemon with 3 abilities have a new ability, but that to me seems to be a false association. It's not "pokemon have 3 abilities because they have a new ability". There are a huge list of pokemon with unique abilities that have two abilities. In fact, that number out numbers the amount that have 3. It's actually the other way around: Pokemon often have a new ability because they have 3 abilities. They have extra design room, so they explore new designs.

On top of that, this logic just feels kinda silly for CAP. We already have banned new abilities, so bringing this logic in is akin to saying "we should ban 3 ability pokemon". It doesn't make much sense here with our rules.

 

[Mova]

I'm particularly fond of having either one or two flavorful abilities this time, but I would prefer we get at least one. I wouldn't mind either way.

 

[Darek]

Personally, I would prefer having two flavor abilities but wouldn't be objected to just one. I think that having no flavor abilities is out of the question, as the pokemon with just one ability have an ability that is essential to their design, like Hydreigon and Rotom's levitate or Aegislash's stance change. Here, I don't see Regenerator as being a necessity for Astrolotl's design. Likewise, pokemon with two abilities, one regular and one hidden, tend to have a primary ability that still is strongly associated with the pokemon from a flavor standpoint, like Ferrothorn's Iron Barbs, Alcremie's Sweet Veil, or Araquanid's Water Bubble. While I do think Regenerator fits with Astrolotl's design quite well, I don't think that the association is strong enough to justify it being a standalone ability or being the only non-hidden ability.

 

[Zephyri]

Sure, most pokemon with 3 abilities have a new ability, but that to me seems to be a false association. It's not "pokemon have 3 abilities because they have a new ability". There are a huge list of pokemon with unique abilities that have two abilities. In fact, that number out numbers the amount that have 3. It's actually the other way around: Pokemon often have a new ability because they have 3 abilities. They have extra design room, so they explore new designs.

On top of that, this logic just feels kinda silly for CAP. We already have banned new abilities, so bringing this logic in is akin to saying "we should ban 3 ability pokemon". It doesn't make much sense here with our rules.

KrazyGuy75, I'm not trying to disregard the idea of having 3 abilities for this mon, I actually strongly support it! I agree with the logic that a lot of new pokemon have 3 abilities. All i'm saying is that the idea of having only one flavor ability should still be taken into account... a lot of new pokemon that have no or signature new ability only have 2 abilities (eg: grapploct, polteageist, falinks, copperajah, etc.)!

 

[Gleeboop]

I think that since you can use an offensive support pokemon in numerous ways, it should have the most amount of abilities possible (2 flavor abilities).

 

[Krazyguy75]

KrazyGuy75, I'm not trying to disregard the idea of having 3 abilities for this mon, I actually strongly support it! I agree with the logic that a lot of new pokemon have 3 abilities. All i'm saying is that the idea of having only one flavor ability should still be taken into account... a lot of new pokemon that have no or signature new ability only have 2 abilities (eg: grapploct, polteageist, falinks, copperajah, etc.)!

I was just saying that the opposite is also true: a lot of pokemon with signature abilities have only 2 as well. So it's not really a clear association between "signature abilities" and "2 vs 3 abilities". There doesn't really seem to be a cause:effect of having a signature ability on how many abilities the mon has.

And since signature abilities are banned in CAP, it felt kinda weird to bring up. It's like saying "a lot of fast pokemon have access to Double Team" when making our movesets; it's just something we cannot do in CAP to begin with so why mention it for an analysis?

 

[tiernothebeast]

I would think the magical girl theme would definitely warrant some unique flavor abilities, so I would like one flavor ability at least. I'm also fine with two abilities, although I think that would be harder to implement due to the possibility of not enough unique flavor.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

As it's flavour, there is little to lose by giving it 2 flavour abilities.

Also, please can there be a definition of 'flavour' also, in the context of Regenerator? Regenerator is so overbearingly powerful that abilities may have a competitive impact, but are so comparatively niche in their application that they might as well be considered flavour.

 

[Quanyails]

The consensus is clear to give CAP 27 at least one flavor ability, so you may now discuss and nominate specific flavor abilities! CAP moderators and our Ability Leader for this CAP cycle, GMars, will be checking the competitive implications of any abilities nominated.

As mentioned above, you have 48 hours to make your suggestions heard!

 

[Zephyri]

The abilities that stood out to me, personally, were Illuminate, Dancer, and Solar Power. I think Dancer is fairly self-explanatory... the pokemon looks very lithe and it looks like a dancer as well so why not? Illuminate emphasizes on the lit-up aspects of the pokemon and how it's supposed to "illuminate the sky".

Solar Power is a bit more interesting. A lot of pokedex entries talk about how it draws its power from the sun and attacks with sun powered flames and whatnot, so I felt that it needed to be mentioned. I also feel like it fits very well with how fireworks "burn out but burn bright", similar to how Solar Power makes a pokemon burn out in the sun! My only concern it that the move might be a bit too powerful or anti-concept to be considered as a "flavor ability", taking into account that it's basically a life-orb in the sun. But those are just my thoughts, any feedback would be greatly appreciated!!! :)

 

[spookysocialist]

Illuminate seems like a fairly obvious choice. Dazzling also seems like it would fit really well for a fireworks pokemon that is quite flamboyant. Magician and Telepathy could also fit imo, this definitely seems like a pokemon that could steal an item or dodge an ally's attack.

 

[Gleeboop]

I also agree with Dazzling being a good choice for a flavor ability. However, I think another good flavor ability would be Healer, since this pokemon's design and movepool make it seem like it can heal stuff

 

[Astra]

Gonna be spitballing some ideas I have for this.

Cloud Nine seems like a fair choice for a flavor ability. Clearing the effects of weather seems to be reasonable in order to do light shows, a characteristic that seems to be established on Astrolotl.

Oblivious could support the fact that Astrolotl is an incredibly happy Pokemon and is oblivious to things that would make others sad (I'm talking stuff like dropping your ice cream cone on the ground).

Dazzling fits the flavor of Astrolotl well with, again, its seemingly established ability to perform light shows. However, it might be too good competitive-wise considering it's already pretty high Speed.

Friend Guard is pretty useless but definitely fits the flavor of Astrolotl being a friendly Pokemon.

Aftermath can possibly fit the flavor of Astrolotl being able to create fantastic explosions, "going out with a bang" when it gets KOed.

Anticipation can fit the narrative that Astrolotl wants to be happy all the time, so it anticipates anything that will "kill its vibe" and would want to avoid it.

 

[Gravity Monkey]

I'm totally on board with Illuminate, but there's also one ability that seemed fairly obvious to me that hasn't been mentioned here yet, Aftermath. You know, since the design is based on fireworks which, like, explode. I'll be the first to say that it might be considered too competitive to be a flavor ability, but considering just how much better Regenerator is, it's fairly hard to justify using it.

EDIT: Ninja'd lol. Also wanted to add that I don't really like Solar Power because I feel like it's weird to put that on a mon that has such a strong connection with night time and outer space.

 

[Scizivire]

Solar Power is a bit more interesting. A lot of pokedex entries talk about how it draws its power from the sun and attacks with sun powered flames and whatnot, so I felt that it needed to be mentioned. I also feel like it fits very well with how fireworks "burn out but burn bright", similar to how Solar Power makes a pokemon burn out in the sun! My only concern it that the move might be a bit too powerful or anti-concept to be considered as a "flavor ability", taking into account that it's basically a life-orb in the sun. But those are just my thoughts, any feedback would be greatly appreciated!!! :)

I think Solar Power might be quite a bit too strong for a flavor ability, especially since we already have a decent enough Special Attack stat, good moves and fit on sun teams quite well already.

I'd like to talk about Insomnia and Limber.

Insomnia is given to many nocturnal Pokémon, and I think with its firework theme, perhaps Astrolotl would be more active at night as well? Limber leans more into the acrobat aspect of the Pokémon. I imagine Astrolotl as very flexible on the ground and in the air.

I'd like to voice my support for Aftermath and Illuminate too. Definitely fits the firework flavor as well.

 

[Gleeboop]

May I suggest a few other possibilities?:

Natural Cure: It already has the ability to cure its low health, why not its status conditions?
Magic Guard: It is probably able to protect allies from status, so why not itself?
Cute Charm: Do I have to explain? Astrolotl is adorable.

Those were just some other suggestions.

 

[Ahhhhhh......Clefable.]

I think Heatproof would make a lot of flavor sense on Astrolotl. It’s a firework/cosmic dragon thing that looks like it would enter and exit the atmosphere, and Heatproof would make it nearly invincible to Fire (which would have very little practical application considering it already 4x Fire-type moves.)

Dancer has already been mentioned, and I think Own Tempo would be a cool pairing with it, since both fit the dancing feeling we get from Astrolotl.

Finally, Insomnia has been mentioned, but flavor-wise I think Vital Spirit makes more sense, given the energetic vibes that we get from Astrolotl.

 

[Voltage]

May I suggest a few other possibilities?:

Natural Cure: It already has the ability to cure its low health, why not its status conditions?
Magic Guard: It is probably able to protect allies from status, so why not itself?
Cute Charm: Do I have to explain? Astrolotl is adorable.

Those were just some other suggestions.

Natural Cure and Magic Guard were both heavily discussed during the main ability phase due to how competitively practical they are. They're definitely not just flavor abilities, and I wouldn't at all support these two options going any further down the line. Cute Charm on the other hand I think would be kind of fun and pretty fitting all things considered. While I';m against Magic Guard, I wouldn't be opposed to Friend Guard since it fills roughly the same flavor niche.

I also think that something along the lines of Dancer or Illuminate since both fit the design of Astrolotl well. I would also maybe say Insomnia would work as well, though I'm hesitant on Limber, even if Limber is otherwise completely outclassed by Regenerator. The issue here I have is that, while it's going to be hard to top Regenerator in terms of usage, we should avoid abilities that would still have some small competitive niche. Hence, I think Solar Power shouldn't be an option here since I can guarantee that Astrolotl will likely find its way onto Sun teams already.