CAP 27 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[theotherguytm]

Ok, I'm on the Fire hype bandwagon. But now we can discuss combos...
Fire/Electric
Rotom-Heat has an unreplicated niche in the current metagame. Being able to check Fairies and break balance with equal ease is great. Fire/Electric is only resisted by Dragons, and none of them like its range of debilitating support options. With the ability to inflict all 3 major statuses, clear hazards, pivot, Trick, it does so much. And all with only 1 Fire STAB. I got the idea by noting how many Electric switch-ins hate burns. Imagine a Rotom-H with more sustainable Fire STABs... Or would we be intruding on its niche too much? As for defensive utility... Resist BoltBeam? Check. Flying resist? Check. Fairy resist? Check. It has it all. Besides that Rock and double Ground weakness.
Fighting/Normal
You all look at me as if I'm crazy. But I know the truth. Baiting in Ghosties to Knock them hard is fun. Resisting Rocks is fun. Mega Loppuny did not succeed by Scrappy alone. Normal/Fighting/Knock is a combo used by Obstagoon, who is obscenely hard to wall, and usually has a moveslot open for utility like Tricking its Flame Orb or Taunting opposing walls.
Ice/Electric
What can I say? I'm a slut for Ice types. This typing allows us to force out as many threats as possible with BoltBeam STAB, which gives us as many opportunities to fulfil the concept as possible. Plus, resisting Freeze Dry is a big deal rn. Spread para or go for a freeze!
Ice/Water
For my second, more serious Ice nom, this is a very decent typing that has been dragged through the mud by multiple bad users. A Water that's not weak to Freeze Dry. An Ice that doesn't get forced out by Corv. A Water that blasts past common immunities. An Ice that murders Equilibra and Rotom-Heat. All we have to do is not make Arctovish and this could turn out decent. Surprising defensive utility while threatening a unique group of mons.

 

[YellowAdminSilver]

Fighting/Normal
You all look at me as if I'm crazy. But I know the truth. Baiting in Ghosties to Knock them hard is fun. Resisting Rocks, Ice and Steel is fun. Mega Loppuny did not succeed by Scrappy alone. Normal/Fighting/Knock is a combo used by Obstagoon, who is obscenely hard to wall, and usually has a moveslot open for utility like Tricking its Flame Orb or Taunting opposing walls.

Fighting resists neither Ice nor Steel. This combo resists Bug, Rock, Dark and is immune to Ghost.
Also, I saw higher up in the thread, don't remember by who, but Electric doesn't resist Water either. Sorry for the one-liner but I thought this was relevant enough to point out now.

 

[Pipotchi]

Since Im rooting for a Fire type, I did an analysis of it. I can tie it into the questions listed at the end. Here goes:
Out of the Fire dual types, here are the ones that I consider to be the top tier offensively.

-Fire / Dark
-Fire / Dragon
-Fire / Flying
-Fire / Ghost
-Fire / Ground


This is the criteria by which i want to rate these typings, and I will rank from 1-5 (best to worst) in each:
1. How much do these typings minimize the need for coverage to simply perform
2. How much built-in utility is in the secondary typing's STAB atks that leads to better actualization of the concept?
3. How good is the typing's defensive utility, allowing it to switch in and start performing?
4. How much raw, reliable power does this secondary typing offer?



How much do these typings minimize the need for coverage to simply perform
1. Fire / Dragon: resisted by only heatproof navi. (technically prim in uu)
2. Fire / Ghost: resisted by hydrei, tyranitar, kommo-o if shadow ball route
3. Fire / Ground: resisted by rotom-h, rotom-w, hydrei, stratagem
4. Fire / Flying: resisted by tyranitar, cyclohm, rotom-h, rotom-w, stratagem
5. Fire / Dark: resisted by hydrei, kommo-o, itself, ttar, terrak, argho, crawdaunt, keldeo (technically prim in uu)


How much built-in utility is in the secondary typing's STAB atks that leads to better actualization of the concept?
1. Fire / Dark: access to the best item-removal in the game, probably the best utility attack in the game. the big sell of this typing.
2. Fire / Dragon: atk lowering, forcing switches, pralysis chance. has multiple solid routes
3. Fire / Ground: speed lowering.. from this position down, these typings dont offer much of anything at all
4. Fire / Flying: weak item removal and confusion chance are the closest to support that this has...
5. Fire / Ghost: it has a trapping move, that we probably shouldnt touch because its another caps signature


How good is the typing's defensive utility, allowing it to switch in and start performing?
1.Fire / Ground: excellent typing with a much needed immunity, nice matchup vs most fairy, poison, electric types not worrying about their other moves.
2 Fire / Ghost: it has immunities and blocks spin, lots of resists, also the most weaknesses- it will be afraid of knock offs from fighting types it wants to switch in on. this would be close to a full upgrade to pure fire type, if not for now finding life harder against Aegislash.
3-4 Fire / Dragon: pretty stacked defensive typing, 3 resists and 2 double-resists. loses a fairy resist but also gains ice and water neutralities. notable that 4x resists can let more offensively tailored mons switch in more happily on even banded/boosted moves.
3-4 Fire / Flying: has a nice immunity, and probably the numerically "best" typing here, with 4 resists and 2 double-resists. what lets this down the most is a super-reliance on hdb and fear of losing item, this could limit us further down the line. its also very vulnerable to SE rock moves coming from the fighting,ground and steel types that it might think its checking.
5. Fire / Dark: has an immunity but also probably the most threatened of being lured by neutral u-turns and SE coverage like focus blasts + close combats. It doesnt feel like it offers too much more than pure Fire typing in the defensive department.

How much raw, reliable power does this secondary typing offer?
1.Fire / Dragon: incredibly powerful options for both physical and special, with near-perfect accuracy. wide range of hard hitting moves with different downsides that can be chosen from. slightly better on the special side than physical, but abusable options for both. powerful abusable dual hit and 60BP moves, as well as sound moves.
2.Fire / Ground: super reliable attacks on both sides with good BP and perfect accuracy. incredibly abusive multi-hit moves. not quite as impressive on the special side, but options for both.
3.Fire / Flying: has some good, powerful moves on both sides with some painful drawbacks- low accuracy and recoil. underneath that, there are a couple of abusable 60bp moves.
4. Fire / Dark: it wont even be breaking 100bp. theyre all plain and simple without the opportunity to be abused much by abilities and items- there are some sound moves, and some moves below 60bp but they arent really turning deadly even when exploited. no real powerful special attacks at all. does have access to priority.
5. Fire / Ghost: really weak attacks on the physical and special side, special needs setup to hit hard. no really exploitable moves at lower base power, though does have access to priority and a punch move. physical ghost moves are pretty rubbish.
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So in conclusion, the typings sit somewhere as follows for me (with relation to each other):
Fire / Dragon (17/20)
Fire / Ground (15/20)
Fire / Ghost (10/20)
Fire / Flying (10/20)
Fire / Dark (9/20)
I think all of these avenues are the most interesting, but out of all of them I definitely like Fire/Dragon the most, not because it is the strongest fire typing but because it has the most avenues for exploration and excels at both offense and support. Thanks to its perfect dual stab, it can always have 2 slots to play with, already giving it a half-half offense/support moveset. It also has really nice utility attacks with or without abusing them further with amplifying abilities (either boosting the effects or the damage), which means we can really go a wide range of routes with it.
_________________________________________________________________

Regarding the questions, I want to touch on a couple:

• On the topic of offensive presence and pressure, Lyd mentions the importance of strong STAB combinations in their post. However, I remember seeing discussion regarding 1 spammable STAB paired with a good single coverage option in the CA. Should we be placing a heightened importance on strong STAB combinations when it comes to compressed coverage or should we be establishing a single STAB option and free up our secondary typing for other purposes?

So I dont personally think there needs to be just 1 usable stab- because the STABs can tie into the concept as mentioned before, with good utility attacks that deal damage and benefit your team at the same time. There are many ways to skin this cat and as long as the typing has utility attacks, they can fill slots without feeling like they are taking away from the supportive side of the concept. What is important to me is not picking a typing that requires a generic attack to even succeed in the first place- for instance something that needs to use Psychic to even scratch Mollux and Toxapex, because that will start to feel like a dead slot when it comes to actualization. A typing like Fire/Water, Fire/Bug or Fire/Electric might find itself in that kind of situation thanks to its coverage being double-resisted by just a single type.

• Given what has been discussed regarding defensive capability and durability, we need to fill a specific defensive niche with our typing. This typing needs to be meta relevant, obviously, but cannot risk being outclassed by other Pokémon already providing similar functionality. What specific resistances and/or immunities do we need to prioritize to make CAP 27’s usage highly sought after and novel?

Because this concept is so vague, nothings really coming to mind that we desperately need to avoid/prioritize when thinking just about Fire types. For instance Fire/Dragon drops the fairy resist, but its still Fairy-neutral (which cant be considered a negative) and gives us switchins on other amazing pokemon like Rotom-Heat. As long as it can come in on popular Pokemon, this could go in any direction for me, Im more thinking about what will be interesting to explore.

 

[lepton]

time to talk about all the normal dual types I think could work (generously)

Defensive:

Hide

• Normal/Ghost
  • Resistances: Poison
  • Immunities: Normal, Ghost, Fighting
  • Weaknesses: Dark
• Normal/Fire
  • Resistances: Fire, Steel, Fairy, Ice, Bug
  • Immunities: Ghost, Burn status
  • Weaknesses: Water, Fighting, Rock, Ground
• Normal/Water
  • Resistances: Water, Fire, Ice, Steel
  • Immunities: Ghost
  • Weaknesses: Electric, Grass, Fighting
• Normal/Fighting
  • Resistances: Bug, Dark, Rock
  • Immunities: Ghost
  • Weaknesses: Fairy, Fighting, Flying, Psychic
• Normal/Poison
  • Resistances: Bug, Fairy, Grass, Poison
  • Immunities: Ghost, Poison status
  • Weaknesses: Ground, Psychic
• Normal/Steel
  • Resistances: Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Grass, Ice, Normal, Psychic, Rock, Steel
  • Immunities: Ghost, Poison, Poison status
  • Weaknesses: Fighting (4x), Fire, Ground

Takeaways:
the best defensive typings are probably Normal/Poison, Steel, Water, and Ghost. Normal/Poison has great weaknesses and good resistances, Normal/Water is pretty much just a standard Water type. Normal/Ghost relies on immunities as it only resists Poison, but is also only weak to Dark. I’m personally not interested in doing Normal/Steel as we have enough bulky steels atm imo.

Offensive:

Hide

• Normal/Ghost
  • Common Pokemon that resist STABs:
    • Tyranitar
    • Itself
  • Common Pokemon it threatens:
    • Aegislash
    • Dragapult
    • Auromoth
    • Jirachi
    • Pajantom
• Normal/Fire
  • Common Pokemon that resist STABs:
    • Dragapult
    • Pajantom
    • Terrakion
    • Tyranitar
  • Common Pokemon it threatens:
    • Corviknight
    • Aegislash
    • Equilibra
    • Ferrothorn
    • Jumbao
• Normal/Water
  • Common Pokemon that resist STABs:
    • Dragapult
    • Ferrothorn
    • Necturna
    • Pajantom
    • Naviathan
  • Common Pokemon it threatens:
    • Equilibra
    • Rotom-Heat
    • Collosoil
• Normal/Fighting
  • Common Pokemon that resist STABs:
    • Dragapult
    • Aegislash
    • Pajantom
    • Necturna
  • Common Pokemon it threatens:
    • Equilibra
    • Hydreigon
    • Collosoil
    • Ferrothorn
• Normal/Poison
  • Common Pokemon that resist STABs:
    • Aegislash
    • Dragapult
    • Pajantom
    • Corviknight
    • Equilibra
    • Ferrothorn
  • Common Pokemon it threatens:
    • Clefable
    • Jumbao
    • Sylveon
    • Pyroak
• Normal/Steel
  • Common Pokemon that resist STABs:
    • Corviknight
    • Equilibra
    • Aegislash
    • Ferrothorn
  • Common Pokemon it threatens:
    • Clefable
    • Jumbao
    • Terrakion
    • Sylveon

Takeaways:
the best offensive types combined with normal are Ghost, Fire, and Fighting. They all have excellent neutral coverage only resisted by a couple walls easily covered by coverage. However, most importantly, a lot of the mons that switch in are the ones that I talked about earlier, that are generally weak to support options like Knock Off and status.

Overall:
the best dual types with normal for this concept would probably be Ghost, Fire, or Water. The Pokémon that resist these moves are weak to item manipulation and status, and they can switch into common Pokémon in order to do so.

some general normal type stuff:

Concept-supportive moves

Body Slam
Crush Claw?
Encore
Entrainment?
Rapid Spin

Good Attacking Moves

Boomburst
Body Slam
Double-Edge
Extreme Speed
Facade
Quick Attack
Super Fang?

 

[dragoon244]

Alright so I don't usually post so apologies if my formatting isn't as clean as some of the other posts.

I've been lurking and chiming in to the discussion in the discord here and there and wanted to chip in on the actual thread with some type combos that strike me as on brand for our given concept. The pairings I've seen that strike me as the most on concept and viable (with some personal bias) are Fire/Dragon, Normal/Poison, and Poison/Dark.

Fire/Dragon strikes me as the best combination of all the suggested Fire pairings. As I'm sure anyone reading this is aware, Fire is a very popular typing in discussion and is a very good one for the concept given it's defensive utility and offensive pressure. Paired with Dragon, you have a typing that can spam a very difficult to guard STAB combo to provide consistent offensive pressure and provide support options with whatever tools are given to it with the remaining moveslots. My only real gripe about this typing and involving Fire in general is the rocks weakness pushing for Heavy Duty Boots.

Normal/Poison is where my personal bias comes in. Poison has also been explored for its Fairy and Poison resistances, hopefully lending some key defensive prowess against common threats like Mollux and Clefable. A lot of people have dismissed Normal typing due to its lack of resistances, but the Ghost immunity is not something to be written off when Ghost types like Dragapult and Aegislash are such potent threats. Couple that with the fact that Poison eliminates Normal typing's only weakness and you have a good defensive answer to both Fairies and Ghosts, something that I don't think should be written off so quickly. Additionally, Normal typing gives a lot of potential for our concept of offensive support, whether that be through Body Slam and Knock Off for direct means or Toxic and other status moves like Glare to indirectly support the team.

Poison/Dark is actually something I haven't seen a ton of discussion about, although I may have just missed it. With two very relevant resistances to Ghost and Poison, one weakness that's easily compensated for, and the ability to threaten out Fairies and Ghosts with its STAB combination, Poison/Dark is also a very on concept typing. Access to STAB Knock Off is a big plus, as is the immunity to Toxic and ability to spread the status around with ease. This typing, along with the two mentioned above, have plenty of options for Offensive Team Support.

Quick blurb here at the end for some feedback on previous posts as promised. Really enjoyed Pip's breakdown of significant Fire type pairings, he also valued Fire/Dragon more highly than other combinations with Fire in them. Would also like to at least mention Normal/Ghost that has both been touched on in the discord discussion and in pileosand's post. I also believe this typing to be a good idea, if slightly less than Normal/Poison. While the triple immunities and potential for supporting options are tantalizing, it has exactly one resistance to Poison typing which makes me think it might be forced into bulkier stat spreads down the line.

 

[quziel]

I'll be gradually filling this in as I have more motivation, but I'd like to argue in favor of Water / Ghost.

First: What does it do for us in terms of a unique defensive niche?

This typing gives a valuable resist to both Fire and Poison, aka Mollux's STAB combo, as well as Ice and Bug, aka Syclant's STABs, without a major weakness to stuff like Dragon, letting us come in somewhat safely on Kyurem (admittedly Freeze Dry is terrifying). Beyond these major threats, we maintain a solid Fighting resist, letting us come in on Conkeldurr, and situationally threaten out Terrakion. It goes without saying that most offensive squads love a mon that can come in on the meta's #2 pivot (behind Corv), and threaten one of the meta's main offense breakers (Syclant). It is not a hugely effective Water Resist because somehow half of CAP's relevant offensive water types are Water/Electric, but w/e.

Summary:
1) Mollux Resist
2) Ice Resist (Syclant + Kyurem)
3) Fighting Resist (Conkeldurr + Terrakion + Tomohawk)

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Second: How are resists to this STAB Combo affected by Support and Utility Moves?

Resists Both (Hydreigon + Crawdaunt)

Hydreigon:

• Status Weakness: Completely crippled by Paralysis, annoyed by Poison and Burn.
• Item Manipulation Weakness: Enjoys having its item for both sets, but not majorly bothered

Crawdaunt:

• Status Weakness: Crippled by Burn, Annoyed by Paralysis, Poison helps to wear down.
• Item Manipulation Weakness: Likes having a Band or Life Orb, but doesn't need it.

Resists one STAB

Mollux:

• Status Weakness: Dislikes Paralysis, immune to Poison and Burn.
• Item Manipulation Weakness: Needs HDB to pivot well

Toxapex:

• Status Weakness: Dislikes Burn, Mildly annoyed by Paralysis, Immune to Toxic.
• Item Manipulation Weakness: Mildly annoyed by losing leftovers, not crippled however.

Kyurem:

• Status Weakness: Crippled by Paralysis, Burn and Poison mean it gets worn down far quicker
• Item Manipulation Weakness: Dislikes losing Choice Specs, not crippled however.

Jumbao

• Status Weakness: Offensive sets hate Paralysis, Slightly annoyed by Toxic and Burn.
• Item Manipulation Weakness: Not hugely affected.

Ferrothorn:

• Status Weakness: Burn cripples physical sets by neutering physical presence, Paralysis is neutral, immune to Toxic
• Item Manipulation Weakness: Relies almost wholly on leftovers to stay healthy.

Rotom-Wash:

• Status Weakness: Burn and Toxic help to wear it down, immune to paralysis
• Item Manipulation Weakness: Leftovers are only source of recovery outside of Pain Split.

Seismitoad:

• Status Weakness: Burn and Toxic help to wear it down, immune to paralysis.
• Item Manipulation Weakness: Leftovers are its main source of recovery.

Mandibuzz:

• Status Weakness: Burn and Toxic help to quickly wear this birb down, Paralysis is arguably helpful by keeping it Toxic free.
• Item Manipulation Weakness: SR weak pivot that relies on Heavy Duty Boots.

There are more, but I am lazy

Summary:
The resists to this STAB combo (only Hydreigon and Crawdaunt resist both) fall into three categories. Either they are an offensive Pokemon crippled by Paralysis (Hydreigon, Crawdaunt, Jumbao), a wall that relies on its item to stay healthy (Ferrothorn, Mollux, Mandibuzz, Rotom-Wash, Kommo-o), or they are Toxapex, which doesn't even resist Ghost.

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Water / Ghost then gives us a very unique defensive niche by compressing a Fire Resist, Water Resist, reliable Ice Resist (yes, mollux provides both, but its hit 4x by Epower and EQ), and reliable Fighting Resist into one slot. While Toxapex and Mollux offer the same, Toxapex is an incredibly passive Pokemon, offering only Toxic, a 30% burn chance, and Knock off to dissuade switchins, while Mollux doesn't actualize its Ice resistance due to its ground weakness, and has profoundly limited coverage. Offensively this STAB combo hits the vast majority of the meta for neutral damage, and the few pokemon that really take on its combo are either crippled by Paralysis, Burn, or losing their item, all of which are pro-concept. Additionally, this typing is relatively item-agnostic; its not particularly SR weak, and therefore doesn't require Heavy Duty Boots.

 

[Amamama]

I’m not really used to the cap meta and it’s intricacies, but I have been lurking on the last 4 projects and have been slowly building the courage to finally post myself.

I am proposing Poison/Ground
as a typing for Cap 27

Looking only at type weaknesses, ground is the best attacking type, hitting 5 types for super effective damage, while only being resisted by two types, although it meets one typing immunity and a common ability immunity.
It also packs a high power stab without drawbacks on both sides.

Ground also adds some defensive utility, since it takes less damage from Stealth Rock and is Immune to Twave and Sandstorm.

Poison on the other hand is a defensive staple. Not only does it possess two highly important resistances in fighting and fairy, it is also immune to poison status, can act as auto hazard remover - as it absorbs toxic spikes - sports attacks with high probability poisoning on both physical and special side, or debuffing, which may act as move compression on the utility side.

While poison is lackluster offensively it pairs perfectly with ground as they hit all meta at least neutral except for Corviknight, Cawmodore, levitate Equilibra and air balloon Aegislash.

With Ground and Poison as its Stabs Cap 27 would threaten many of the top tier threats, forcing/keeping out
Clef, Mollux, Aegi, Equi, terrakion, zeraora, Excadrill, Jumbao, Toxapex, depending on its stats.
Still Poison Ground would not be overbearing offensively, because both stabs are easily blocked by an immunity
This even might make moves like rapid spin or choice/trick sets viable, since they’d be hard to abuse for sweeping.

On the utility side,
Except for corviknight and collosoil (after flame orb activated) all reliable switch ins either hate losing/ changing items or are weary of paralysis/toxic

Also many Pokemon that threaten cap 27 would need to be careful when switching in, if It gets access to paralysis
(Kyurem, Syclant, jirachi, Auromoth, Dracvish, keldeo)
Or poison
(Seismitoad, Argonaught, Hippodown, gastrodon, Mamoswine)

To summarize, Posion Ground Gives ample opportunities to come in on status such as toxic and twave or on one of its resistances and is threatening many top tier threats, while making it hard to find switch ins, that force out Cap27 right away.
This gives it time to perform its utility, be it crippling its counter play with status and item removal, hazard control Or healing.

 

[MrDollSteak]

The two type combinations that I would like to discuss and support are Normal/Poison and Normal/Fire.

I believe these two combinations will incentivize the use of utility moves well and provide ample defensive and offensive utility to support teams. Of the two I personally believe that Normal/Poison is the preferable option as it has more pronounced offensive limitations that are overcome through the use of support moves like Knock Off and Status, as well as by being the mote defensive of the two due to a lesser number of weaknesses, namely to Water, Rock and Fighting in particular. The two types share a resistance to fairy, as well as an immunity to ghost, which are some of the more common offensive moves from threats like Aegislash, Clefable and Dragapult. They also similar block both of Necturna's stabs.

While on first glance it may appear that there isn't a lot that differentiates either typing from one of the premier defensive threats Mollux, an immunity to Ghost attacks, only 2x weakness to ground, as well as in the case of Normal /Poison neutrality to Stealth rock, sets them apart. In addition, as has been mentioned previously, offensively the Normal type is resisted primarily by switchins that do not value being hit with status nor Knock Off. While the combination of Normal Poison in particular does not hit much of the meta super effectively it is only resisted completely by Steel-types, Dragapult, Jellicent, Crucibelle and Tyranitar, all of whom dislike Paralysis, Burns and Knock Off.
The combination of Normal / Fire naturally narrows this list down to no longer include Steel types, at the cost of being a worse switch in to Aegislash because of a weakness to close combat and water types.

While neither typing is flawless, I believe that they are specific enough to be interesting, and can lead to particularly interesting ability discussion phases as many of their weaknesses both offensively and defensively can be mitigated in this stage, while retaining the benefits of targeting specific resistances to the stab moves of key top tier threats such as Clefable, Jumbao, Aegislash, Dragapult, Sylveon, and Necturna.

 

[NumberCruncher]

I’m not really used to the cap meta and it’s intricacies, but I have been lurking on the last 4 projects and have been slowly building the courage to finally post myself.

I am proposing Poison/Ground
as a typing for Cap 27

Looking only at type weaknesses, ground is the best attacking type, hitting 5 types for super effective damage, while only being resisted by two types, although it meets one typing immunity and a common ability immunity.
It also packs a high power stab without drawbacks on both sides.

Ground also adds some defensive utility, since it takes less damage from Stealth Rock and is Immune to Twave and Sandstorm.

Poison on the other hand is a defensive staple. Not only does it possess two highly important resistances in fighting and fairy, it is also immune to poison status, can act as auto hazard remover - as it absorbs toxic spikes - sports attacks with high probability poisoning on both physical and special side, or debuffing, which may act as move compression on the utility side.

While poison is lackluster offensively it pairs perfectly with ground as they hit all meta at least neutral except for Corviknight, Cawmodore, levitate Equilibra and air balloon Aegislash.

With Ground and Poison as its Stabs Cap 27 would threaten many of the top tier threats, forcing/keeping out
Clef, Mollux, Aegi, Equi, terrakion, zeraora, Excadrill, Jumbao, Toxapex, depending on its stats.
Still Poison Ground would not be overbearing offensively, because both stabs are easily blocked by an immunity
This even might make moves like rapid spin or choice/trick sets viable, since they’d be hard to abuse for sweeping.

On the utility side,
Except for corviknight and collosoil (after flame orb activated) all reliable switch ins either hate losing/ changing items or are weary of paralysis/toxic

Also many Pokemon that threaten cap 27 would need to be careful when switching in, if It gets access to paralysis
(Kyurem, Syclant, jirachi, Auromoth, Dracvish, keldeo)
Or poison
(Seismitoad, Argonaught, Hippodown, gastrodon, Mamoswine)

To summarize, Posion Ground Gives ample opportunities to come in on status such as toxic and twave or on one of its resistances and is threatening many top tier threats, while making it hard to find switch ins, that force out Cap27 right away.
This gives it time to perform its utility, be it crippling its counter play with status and item removal, hazard control Or healing.

I actually have a fairly significant issue with this typing. Which problem? This problem:

CAP 27 is built to be a support mon that applies offensive pressure for offense teams, so this freak of nature is already likely to be on teams that utilize CAP 27.

Dracovish's answers usually fall into one of two categories in the CAP metagame. In one corner, we have bulky Grass types that can take a Fisheous Rend and punch back, like Jumbao and Caribolt. Bulky Grass types get cleared out by Poison Ground types, since all of the bulky Grass types are weak to Poison (especially Jumbao). In the other corner, we have the Water immunities. This usually just means Mollux. Mollux gets creamed by our Ground typing no questions asked. That means that if we want a mon that CAP 27 can't clear out that also doesn't lose to Dracovish, that pretty much limits us to Toad, Arghonaut, and maybe Vaporeon. Toad lacks recover to switch in over and over again, Argh isn't actually good against some Vish variants, and Vaporeon is just not very good in this metagame.

Is this a problem? Not necessarily. What would be a problem is actually something brought up in concept assessment. In several people's posts about other successful offensive support mons, a pattern that emerged over and over again was speed control, such as Thunder Wave on Mega Audino and Clefable, for example. This would be incredibly problematic on a mon that already clears threats away for Dracovish, as it not only cripples your ability to switch into Dracovish, but also revenge kill it later. Likewise, item removal in the form of moves like Switcheroo and Knock Off also seem questionable, as many Scarf mons that could revenge kill Dracovish suddenly don't revenge kill Dracovish if you get rid of their Scarf.

What I'm getting at here is that Dracovish is already a very potent threat that isn't much fun to play against. Going with Poison/Ground typing is just going to put constant strain on every step of the process to not turn Dracovish/CAP27 into a format warping core, which would prevent CAP from reaching its full potential as far as fulfilling concept goes.

 

[Mx]

• On the topic of offensive presence and pressure, Lyd mentions the importance of strong STAB combinations in their post. However, I remember seeing discussion regarding 1 spammable STAB paired with a good single coverage option in the CA. Should we be placing a heightened importance on strong STAB combinations when it comes to compressed coverage or should we be establishing a single STAB option and free up our secondary typing for other purposes?

I don't think is important to worry about, following the spammable STAB+coverage model, a relatively weaker secondary STAB could fit in that additional coverage, still leaving us with two moveslots for utility, and this doesn't even consider that one of our STABs might double as a utility move, something that many of the proposed types can do. Whatever we chose, we should always be able to accommodate for whatever support options we want if we play our cards right on later stages.

• Typically, type combinations are exponentially better than pure typings. However, does adding an additional type work against us in our search for a balanced typing? A handful of the examples from the concept assessment were single type. Is there any merit to just have a singular typing for this project or would it limit us too much to consider it as an option?

I think having a singular typing could work, but it won't offer any real advantages. Tornadus-T is a Pokemon that has been mentioned a lot as an example of offensive support and shows that with the right tools, a mono-typing can accomplish what we want. However, even in that case, I'd argue that Tornadus-T is not a good because of its mono Flying-type, it's good despite of it, as it would love to have a good secondary type, Flying/Electric in particular would be a straight upgrade (at least disregarding Gravity/Thousand Arrows shenanigans). A good secondary typing will always increase the amount of flexibility we'll have on later stages, as it gives us more STAB options we can pick from and many more opportunities to switch in. Even if we later decide we don't want to use a certain STAB move, we can always choose to not give it to CAP 27 (a Dark-type doesn't have to learn Knock Off, a Normal-type doesn't have to learn Boomburst, and a Fire-type doesn't have to learn Lava Plume).

• Given what has been discussed regarding defensive capability and durability, we need to fill a specific defensive niche with our typing. This typing needs to be meta relevant, obviously, but cannot risk being outclassed by other Pokémon already providing similar functionality. What specific resistances and/or immunities do we need to prioritize to make CAP 27’s usage highly sought after and novel?

I think the best way to analyze which resistances are the most valuable is to check which are the most common attacking types in the meta. For this purpose I made this list showing which types are the most commonly used and which Pokemon use them, considering only Pokemon ranked B- or above in the current VR:

Hide

Green = S Rank
Blue = A+/A/A- Rank
Black = B+/B/B- Rank
Underlined = Has STAB

• Ground: Equilibra, Seismitoad, Excadrill, Colossoil, Kyurem, Syclant, Terrakion, Arghonaut, Conkeldurr, Hippowdon, Mamoswine, Gastrodon, Fidgit, Stratagem, Pajantom, Dracovish. (9 A-Rank, 7 B-Rank, 16 total)
• Fighting: Corviknight, Terrakion, Tomohawk, Conkeldurr, Aegislash, Zeraora, Jumbao, Kerfluffle, Kommo-o, Revenankh, Keldeo, Aurumoth, Reuniclus, Gengar. (1 S-Rank, 6 A-Rank, 7 B-Rank, 14 total)
• Fairy: Clefable, Jumbao, Zeraora, Kerfluffle, Sylveon, Grimmsnarl, Hatterene, Primarina, Stratagem, Sigilyph. (1 S-Rank, 2 A-Rank, 7 B-Rank, 10 total)
• Dark: Hydreigon, Mandibuzz, Colossoil, Zeraora, Arghonaut, Conkeldurr, Ferrothorn, Bisharp, Tyranitar, Obstagoon. (6 A-Rank, 3 B-Rank, 9 total)
• Fire: Mollux, Clefable, Rotom-Heat, Dragapult, Hydreigon, Pyroak, Cinderace, Stratagem, Cyclohm. (2 S-Rank, 3 A-Rank, 4 B-Rank, 9 total)
• Water: Seismitoad, Toxapex, Dracovish, Naviathan, Gyarados, Rotom-Wash, Pelipper, Keldeo. (2 A-Rank, 6 B-Rank, 8 total)
• Steel: Corviknight, Equilibra, Aegislash, Excadrill, Hydreigon, Jirachi, Bisharp. (1 S-Rank, 4 A-Rank, 2 B-Rank, 7 total)
• Dragon: Dragapult, Hydreigon, Kommo-o, Dracovish, Pajantom, Cyclohm. (2 A-Rank, 4 B-Rank, 6 total)
• Ghost: Dragapult, Aegislash, Necturna, Gengar, Pajantom, Revenankh. (2 A-Rank, 4 B-Rank, 6 total)
• Bug: Corviknight, Syclant, Mandibuzz, Colossoil, Aurumoth, Jirachi. (1 S-Rank, 3 A-Rank, 2 B-Rank, 6 total)
• Electric: Rotom-Heat, Zeraora, Rotom-Mow, Caribolt, Cyclohm, Rotom-Wash. (2 A-Rank, 4 B-Rank, 6 total)
• Grass: Jumbao, Ferrothorn, Necturna, Rotom-Mow, Caribolt, Pyroak. (2 A-Rank, 4 B-Rank, 6 total)
• Flying: Corviknight, Tomohawk, Mandibuzz, Pelipper, Sigilyph. (1 S-Rank, 2 A-Rank, 2 B-Rank, 5 total)
• Psychic: Clefable, Reuniclus, Aurumoth, Hatterene, Sigilyph. (1 S-Rank, 4 B-Rank, 5 total)
• Rock: Terrakion, Aegislash, Excadrill, Stratagem, Tyranitar. (3 A-Rank, 2 B-Rank, 5 total)
• Ice: Kyurem, Syclant, Mamoswine, Naviathan. (2 A-Rank, 2 B-Rank, 4 total)
• Normal: Conkeldurr, Colossoil, Obstagoon, Naviathan. (2 A-Rank, 2 B-Rank, 4 total)
• Poison: Mollux, Gengar, Kerfluffle. (1 S-Rank, 2 B-Rank, 3 total)

There are probably a few moves I missed, but this should be mostly accurate. While this format is not perfect, as it overestimates certain types like Water, which has only two passive A-Ranked mons with a lot of B-ranked threats and underestimates types like Ghost and Ice, that only have a few very powerful attackers, I still think it does a good job at showing some of the most valuable resistances if we want to act as a successful pivot. The two more used types are Ground- and Fighting-type, as they are not only great STABs, but are also incredibly valuable coverage. Even if we don't outright beat Pokemon with these moves, these resistances can be easily translated into opportunities to switch in, especially against choice-locked attackers like Aegislash. For this reason I think they could be some of the most valuable resistances for CAP 27, with other common types like Dark, Fire, Ghost, and Ice being pretty close behind.

I'l try to discuss specific typings in detail tomorrow. I mostly prefer Fire-type, as that seems the most promising type with the right combination.

 

[Agile Turtle]

Huge thank you to Mx for saving us all a lot of time and energy by compiling common attacking types lmao

On the topic of offensive presence and pressure, Lyd mentions the importance of strong STAB combinations in their post. However, I remember seeing discussion regarding 1 spammable STAB paired with a good single coverage option in the CA. Should we be placing a heightened importance on strong STAB combinations when it comes to compressed coverage or should we be establishing a single STAB option and free up our secondary typing for other purposes?
It really depends. Thinking in terms of offensive pressure, and opportunities for team support, it's all gonna vary between types. There is certainly an offensive benefit to really good STAB coverage, but in terms of support, we also have to look at what that's gonna lure in. While beneficial in many cases, I don't think amazing STAB coverage is at all required for this concept, however I do think decent coverage is ideal at bare minimum, and it doesn't necessarily have to come from STAB. I also don't think it is a bad thing if your coverage is too good because again, that depends. We have to look at them on a case by case basis, and I think it's important to highlight now what we're gonna lure in. I think if not enough mons are going to reliably switch in, this CAP is just going to go purely on the offensive. And if this CAP can't put a dent in enough mons, it's not going to be offensively threatening enough to function like we need it to.

Typically, type combinations are exponentially better than pure typings. However, does adding an additional type work against us in our search for a balanced typing? A handful of the examples from the concept assessment were single type. Is there any merit to just have a singular typing for this project or would it limit us too much to consider it as an option?
I don't think there is anything wrong with a single typing. Just like with dual typings, we have to look at things on a case by case basis. Dual typings in a setting like this do have an edge in how we can better cater them to specific things, whether that be walling certain threats or filling some sort of offensive niche. Dual typings also have the added benefit of (usually) being more unique, giving them a reason to be picked when teambuilding. For instance if we just built a pure Fairy type for this concept, it's likely going to have competition with clefable. And while a Fairy/(insert different type here) would still likely have some competition with Clefable, there's more to set them apart. There is obviously going to be a bias towards dual typings in this discussion, but I would not consider a singular typing necessarily limiting, and I do think they warrant some discussion. Honestly a pure fire type could easily work very well for this concept, and a case could be made for other types as well.

Given what has been discussed regarding defensive capability and durability, we need to fill a specific defensive niche with our typing. This typing needs to be meta relevant, obviously, but cannot risk being outclassed by other Pokémon already providing similar functionality. What specific resistances and/or immunities do we need to prioritize to make CAP 27’s usage highly sought after and novel?
I don't think there is one right answer to this. I don't think there is any one specific resistance or immunity that needs to be prioritized, we just need to make sure that it's enough. Even an arguably bad defensive typing can work well with the right resistances. Resistances to common attacking moves is going to be a big deal, but they mean much more to CAP if CAP is not also weak to common coverage moves used alongside them. Being immune to ghost type moves as a normal type is nice, especially since there are a few common users. However switching into aegislash is risky because it pretty much always carries fighting coverage. I think it's imperative to look into not only what types CAP can switch into, but which specific pokemon it can switch into as well. It's worth noting which--if any--top threats CAP could switch into risk free.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

What am I missing about Dark Typing? There are a lot of fairies and fighting, one of the Psychic's it can come in on has Perfect Accuracy Fighting or Bug, and if its going to be switching into Pex targeting attacks, then ground immunity is provided by Mandibuzz and Hydreigon anyway.

It boosts Knock Off/Foul Play but with no useful Offense, and that Banded Hoopa U cannot 2HKO say Terrakion with Foul Play or Knock Off, its Offense is not there, making the typing a bit of a liability. With the likes of Terrakion and Kyurem cutting about, Fighting will only get more popular.

 

[Amamama]

I actually have a fairly significant issue with this typing. Which problem? This problem:

CAP 27 is built to be a support mon that applies offensive pressure for offense teams, so this freak of nature is already likely to be on teams that utilize CAP 27.

Dracovish's answers usually fall into one of two categories in the CAP metagame. In one corner, we have bulky Grass types that can take a Fisheous Rend and punch back, like Jumbao and Caribolt. Bulky Grass types get cleared out by Poison Ground types, since all of the bulky Grass types are weak to Poison (especially Jumbao). In the other corner, we have the Water immunities. This usually just means Mollux. Mollux gets creamed by our Ground typing no questions asked. That means that if we want a mon that CAP 27 can't clear out that also doesn't lose to Dracovish, that pretty much limits us to Toad, Arghonaut, and maybe Vaporeon. Toad lacks recover to switch in over and over again, Argh isn't actually good against some Vish variants, and Vaporeon is just not very good in this metagame.

Is this a problem? Not necessarily. What would be a problem is actually something brought up in concept assessment. In several people's posts about other successful offensive support mons, a pattern that emerged over and over again was speed control, such as Thunder Wave on Mega Audino and Clefable, for example. This would be incredibly problematic on a mon that already clears threats away for Dracovish, as it not only cripples your ability to switch into Dracovish, but also revenge kill it later. Likewise, item removal in the form of moves like Switcheroo and Knock Off also seem questionable, as many Scarf mons that could revenge kill Dracovish suddenly don't revenge kill Dracovish if you get rid of their Scarf.

What I'm getting at here is that Dracovish is already a very potent threat that isn't much fun to play against. Going with Poison/Ground typing is just going to put constant strain on every step of the process to not turn Dracovish/CAP27 into a format warping core, which would prevent CAP from reaching its full potential as far as fulfilling concept goes.

Dracovish is just stupidly strong.
In all of the Top Meta there are four mons - aside from water immunities that don’t get two hit kod by one of its moves after some previous chip, one of them is Pex which can’t damage it back and still is nearly decimated by psychic fangs.
even Jumbao which is the only one of these who can hit it back for a Ko is massively hurt by paychic.
Only Naviathan and ferrethorn tank all of its attacks quite well and they can’t hurt it back as fast as they’d wish.
The only downside to dracovish is its reliance on choice items. Which makes predictions/sacrifices key.

So if Vish is such a threat that is only held back in its viability by Mollux and two Grass Types CAP27 threatening grass or water types always will invite more vishs.
Thus all fire, flying, ice, poison, grass, thunder types would be a dangerous path - although arguably varying in degrees of apocalypticalness

 

[Jho]

I'd like to interject in otherwise really great discussion by moving us away from whatever this ranting about Dracovish is.

CAP 27 is built to be a support mon that applies offensive pressure for offense teams, so this freak of nature is already likely to be on teams that utilize CAP 27.

Dracovish is only viable on dedicated rain teams, outside of that it is honestly incredibly bad in the current meta, so it is very unlikely that CAP27 is accidentally this amazing partner for it. Making Dracovish broken (paraphrasing) is not a real issue and I would like to move us away from this point as I can see it quickly bogging down and derailing the honestly amazing discussion happening around typings.

 

[Yay61]

My favourite typing so far is Water / Ghost. As already stated, ghost has excellent neutral coverage to be a reliable offensive option even ignoring the water stab. There’s also support potential in multiple moves involving status but most importantly in my opinion, it provides it with a clear defensive niche. As quziel showed, its resistances mean that it does not need too significant bulk to find switchin opportunities, thereby allowing it to focus more on offensive prowess and reduce the risk of running an entirely defensive set. Water / ghost naturally checks threatening mons like Syclant and Mollux which are otherwise difficult to counter, allowing this pokemon to easily fit in with other offensive pokemon, not only providing its support capabilities but a unique and solid defensive niche.

This I think is something that is important for the typing, as if this cap fails to provide notable defensive utility beyond what its common teammates may possess, it will struggle to fit in outside of highly specific teams where it’s support potential is valuable enough to outweigh the weaknesses it may provide to a team.

Having said that, I think another possible route is to go in the opposite direction, a pokemon that relies on its natural bulk rather than resists. Many pokemon in this metagame have relatively weaker initial power such as Dragapult, Clefable and Mollux, meaning that a pokemon with high defenses is able to take hits from many pokemon without typing advantage. Something like this can be seen in av torn in oras, which used its special bulk and offensive pressure to act as an effective check to many special attackers like Gengar and Keldeo. In this case, it is more important for a typing to have few weaknesses to relevant moves such as Poison / Dark and Poison / Normal.

 

[YellowAdminSilver]

A bunch of people posted while I was gathering my thoughts so I'll go read those first and talk about the ones I like later. However, the thing that stands out to me rn is that I don't really see the allure of the Normal typings being thrown around. While you're immune to Ghost, this is kinda situational as you can't actually switch in safely into the two most common in Pult and Aegislash. You're either neutral to Steel in any case, or weak to CC and Toxic, so your opportunities to come into Aegis are limited to RKing if it locks into its Ghost STAB or the Sub set if you're immune to Poison, not to mention you're eating Dracos this whole time as you're neutral to Pult's strongest move. I guess the defensive merit is there but with the lack of resistances I think there are typings that accomplish more.

Offensively, non-Fire typings invite a bunch of shit like Equi, Corv, Ferro, Aegis which I realize are supposed to be targets for utility moves but if the only thing CAP can do after getting in is spamming WoW/Knock Off/w/e because its STABs are resisted by so much, the offensive bit of "offensive support" is lost imo. A STAB combo like Normal/Poison also makes you a p terrible user of Choice items, which locks you out of some nice utility like emergency Defog/Healing Wish (on a Scarf set) and Trick in case this is an avenue we want to pursue. In general if CAP's utility is just luring stuff in so it can get knocked, I feel like there's more interesting ways we could go about this concept? There's already a bunch of mons that can do that from Conk to Clef to Pex with everything in between.

About Normal/Fire, which is the better Normal typing imo, I feel it's a downgrade from just Fire. Sure, Ghost immunity blah but it worsens your matchup against Aegislash and fairies, which defeats the point of the Fire typing in the first place. Now you're weak to one of Aegi's main coverage moves, as well as Jumbao and Kerf's. It also gives you more problems coming into fat shit like Body Press Corv, Ferro and the like. At that point I feel you're better off with just the pure Fire type or a different secondary type.

Typings I like DON'T CLICK IT'S A SURPRISE

So I don't forget for later:
Poison/Ground
Water/Poison
Fire/Ghost
Fire/Flying?

 

[theotherguytm]

Water / Ghost.

This sounds nice. Jellicant has been undergoing a renaissance lately in Gen 8, and Jellicant 2020 Edition at worst doesn't sound so bad.

Fire/Flying

Legitimately yes. This typing is blessed by Boots and otherwise is really solid. If you've ever seen a well used Ho-Oh, Talonflame or Moltres, you'll know what I mean.

 

[Wulfanator]

It's-a me.

Following a handful of post that have added little or nothing to the conversation, I feel the need to take a moment to remind all users that one-liner/uninformed posts are not permitted in the thread. The removal of these posts is not us (TL members or CAP staff) attempting to push away new user involvement in the project or suppress ideas. The purpose of user posts in these stages is to add substantial insight and present ideas the rest of the community might be overlooking. To promote better discussion, people should not simply jump in, say something completely random/unrelated to the discussion as a whole, and then leave, never be seen again. If you want to show support for a typing already suggested or present a typing previously not talked about, please provide an argument for them. Make sure to cover as much pro-concept information as possible. Otherwise, your posts will be removed.

There is also one more thing I'd like to say before I sign off. PLEASE be providing feedback to other user ideas in the thread. Consensus is what basically guarantees spots on the slate. I'm seeing a lot of discussion on the discord, but a good portion of that has yet to translate over to the forums. The discord is great for live conversation, but the topics discussed there mean absolutely nothing if it is not documented here. If it is not explicitly stated here, I will not be considering it in decisions leading up to the final slate.

 

[quziel]

A Too lazy to quote other posts cause that's a lot of work. But here are my thoughts on typings other than the one I proposed.

Fire / Dragon

This typing strikes me as one of the most promising suggestions, boasting a unique set of useful resistances (Fire, Electric, Steel), giving it a solid place in the meta as a way to check Mollux, Zeraora, and Aegislash in one slot, albeit not checking a huge amount else due to typing alone. The Dragon component gives away the invaluable Ice resist, and still valuable Fairy resist, making it so that you can no longer check Syclant and Kyurem. That said, this typing has a huge amount of neutral matchups, as shown by Charizard-X's Roost set, and could, with the right bulk, function as a great check to a fair few mons.

What this typing does offer in spades however is offensive presence. The singular pokemon that resists both STAB attacks in Gen 8 is Primarina, which is not known as a hugely bulky mon. There is legit no need for coverage beyond the main STABs here, which is a huge boon, and a potentially dangerous spot for this mon to be in. While this great STAB coverage means that this is one of the few typings that I think could get away with running a set like Fire STAB / Dragon STAB / Wish / Recovery, it also means that this mon could definitely just equip some nice spectacles or a fancy arm band and barrel through teams (depending on offensive bias). Finally, there are a few interesting attacks that are concept relevant here being Lava Plume (Status + Damage), Fire Lash (Def Drop), Dragon Breath (Para Chance), Breaking Swipe (Attack Drop), and Mystical Fire (SpA Drop). One of the bigger issues with later stages w.r.t. this typing if chosen would really be trying to ward off purely offensive sets.

Fire / Normal

This typing is another interesting one, offering a metric ton of resists to primary attacks, but few secondary attacks. I realize this doesn't make a huge amount of sense, so I'll give a more in depth explanation. You resist Jumbao's Moonblast but are weak to its Focus Blast, Aegislash's Iron Head and Shadow Claw but are weak to its Close Combat, Mollux's Lava Plume but not its Sludge Bomb, Syclant's Icicle Crash but not its Earthquake. It lends itself to a potentially interesting concept that has to be played very offensively to really check what its on a team to check, but that isn't a bad thing. Definitely one of the typings proposed that is sorta coded to go heavily offensive.

In terms of potentially interesting attacks, we have a few status attacks from Normal such as Body Slam, Tri Attack, and Crush Claw, as well as two of the strongest STAB attacks available in Boomburst and Double Edge. Our switchins here are gonna be stuff like Toxapex, Tyranitar, and Dragapult, all of which are annoyed by either Knock Off or Toxic. As seen before Fire-STAB still offers a ton, especially in conjunction with Normal STAB. I think this concept could work, but its a very dangerous one, as it doesn't really check what it resists considering how exploitable the typing can be.

Poison / Dark

Another interesting typing, this time the traditional "No Weaknesses" typing. This basically turns us into an optimal ghost resist, considering how difficult it is to exploit our single weakness, but doesn't really help us a huge amount outside of that singular matchup. While we do resist Grass, Jumbao and Caribolt both hit us with their secondary stab, while we do resist Dark, we ain't ever coming in on Colossoil, while we do resist Poison, Pex is just clicking Scald, and Mollux just clicks Lava Plume. Overall this is an interesting typing that def is hard to exploit, but similarly is hard to use outside of taking on ghosts, and taking neutral hits from essentially everything.

The main things this typing is really bringing us offensively is well, the spammability of STAB Dark type attacks, including the potential wonder of Knock Off, which is a utility win. Furthermore, Poison has a bevy of attacks with very interesting secondary effects. Additionally, if you look at the resists to the STAB combo, every single one is either crippled by Burn or Paralysis, which is another point in this typing's favor. Overall I think its an interesting typing, but we'd have to work a fair bit to justify its usage on a team beyond an offensive Ghost resist.

Normal / Poison

This is a second typing that is honing in on the Ghost-resist market, this time offering immunity to Ghost STAB. Unlike Dark / Poison this typing also offers a useful Fairy resistance. To give credit to the typing where it is due, you do provide a useful resist to both of those typings, which were two of the most important attacks to resist in the pre-home meta. However, post home the value of a Fairy-resist has definitely dropped, even if its still mandatory for the team.

What I'd really like to talk about here is the offensive issues of the typing, which are many. Unlike many of the typings above, there's no real synergy between the two offensively, with Poison offering almost nothing above pure Normal STAB beyond a SE hit on Clefable. This is a typing that will have to work very hard to really excel on an offensive mon, and a case where we'll need to provide significant non-STAB coverage. However, luckily for it, most Normal resists (i.e. Rock, Steel, Ghost types) heavily dislike losing their item, or being Burned / Paralyzed. Overall an interesting typing, but I'd have to see more about how this typing can work offensively before supporting it for a concept so involved with Offensive Support.

/ds resists normal, !resists poison:
Decidueye, Dhelmise, Gourgeist, Mimikyu, Phantump, Pumpkaboo, Trevenant

Ice / Water

A final interesting one, this time basically honing in on the Ice-Type Matchup as its signature defensive niche that it brings to a team. A 4x resist to Ice moves and neutrality to Freeze Dry is worth a fair bit, especially with Kyurem and Syclant as strong as they are in the meta. Additionally, you provide a fairly useful water resist to a team, making the Dracovish matchup a bit easier (even if that matchup is never gonna be super hard outside of rain). However, that's where the good parts of this typing sorta stop; its got a lot of very relevant weaknesses, including SR (which would all but force Heavy Duty Boots considering that the tier's #2 Ice type is a U-turn Spammer), as well as weaknesses to Electric and Fighting, both super relevant typings (especially considering that a lot of CAP's Water types are half Electric).

Offensively this is where the typing shines. Water + Ice has long been a very strong combo, all the way back to Suicune, and this time is no different. The only real resists to the combo are Mollux and other Water types, which are something you could deal with using item manipulation or well, just Toxic. Overall an interesting concept, but a heavily limited one, and it would require a lot of work to really ensure that its defensive niche is enough to find its place onto any team but the most heavily Ice-weak, and to ensure that it has ways to punish Mollux and Water types with utility options.

I'd like to see some discussion on Bug and Electric based typings more, but again, can't be arsed to write out a full advocacy for one of those atm.

 

[YellowAdminSilver]

Legitimately yes. This typing is blessed by Boots and otherwise is really solid. If you've ever seen a well used Ho-Oh, Talonflame or Moltres, you'll know what I mean.

The tag said not to click, what the hell dude </3
Honestly it seems to me the best Fire typing is Fire/Flying buuuut this is super contingent on it getting Mountaineer as an ability haha it's not poll jumping if the ability is made up and banned amirite? In all seriousness, while boots are cool and all it's made me realize we should probably avoid 4x rock weak typings since it pigeonholes us so much in other stages just because you need to have the dam crocs. This means no passive recovery, so it pressures us in the movepool stage to have some recovery move, Choice sets go out the window, etc. Also now you can't risk switching into stuff that could be carrying Knock, even mons that you should theoretically be able to check at least once, say Conk, Colo, Bisharp, Mamo and most egregiously Clefable. Too bad tho because the Ground immunity and Fighting resist work really well with a Fire CAP
I realize nobody else was talking about 4x Rock weaks but I just wanted to leave my thoughts on the matter for now in case it comes up later.

I'm gonna have to talk about the other typings later oops

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

Having a typing that requires a specific item when Knock off is so readily slammed is not the brightest, and thus requires one of two rather restrictive abilities that provide no support to the team.

Like how Dark is a hard pass for me, taking 50% switching into SR is very daft for a mon which may have identified requires multiple switch ins over the course of a match.

Edit clicked go to soon, WIP

Ice/Poison
- OK, odd one. But hear me out. Strong Stabs that hit one side of the meta pretty well (Fairies, especially Jumbao and has a resist to fighting, etc), rips into Pex well with certain moves, doesn't fear Toxic and absorbs Tspikes hits Hydreigon, Mollux, Colossoil and and the like SE, and has defined counter play with Steels like Aegislash, Equilibra and the like being obvious switch ins. I appreciate it is also taking 25% SR, given what I've said above, but 25% isn't 50%.

Fire/Ground - burn spam for team support, powerful high accuracy attacks, numerous weather boosts available to empower its own offenses while supporting the team either intrinsic to the STAB or with flavour supported options further down the line. Most of the top tier Pokémon are hit at least neutrally between these two offenses save for Hydreigon... All positives for Smokomodo again.

 

[Karoshi]

The three type combos I want to put my advocate for:

Normal/Ghost
Three immunities and one of the best defensive combos in the game. Normal STAB is solid neutral coverage on its own right and STAB Ghost will help it counter every other Ghost in the tier if Stats allow. Focus Blast is one of the most popular coverage moves in both OU and CAP so an immunity to that and good prediction can allow CAP27 to switch in and accomplish its goals. Only one weakness is also good as it help CAP27 know when it can switch in. This is my favorite combo mentioned as I feel it fits the concept the most.

Dark/Poison
There was a reason Alola Muk was one of the most used Pokemon at the start of SuMo. One of the best defensive typing with a strong, abusable STAB. Most Ghosts lack ground coverage if they even get it and being a Dark Type that can shut down both Clefable and Jumbao will give CAP27 a guarantee niche. Immunity to Prankster, Poison Status and Psychic attacks will give it opportunities to switch in and absorbing TSpikes adds to its utility. It is weak to ground and thus probably countered by Equilibra but this can be alleviated with stats/moves if we decide we want to check it.

Normal/Poison
The inbetween between the other two types I mentioned. Poison is one of the few Monotypes that is solid defensively on its own merit. One of the reasons is because of its resistance to Fighting, one of the most useful offensive typing in the game. Trading out that for immunity against Ghost would normally not be worth it. However for CAP27 it does help it accomplish several things. CAP in general has numerous powerful ghosts and thus immunity to their STAB is helpful. A stronger, more sustainable neutral STAB will let it not be forced out as often. Same points as the other two; normal provides solid neutral coverage while poison give it utility use. It does get shut down hard by Steel types though if we go this route.

All three type combo I am advocating for have three main things in common; they are weak to Colossoil in some way or another, they are more defensive then offensive and they all bring CAP27 immunities. Having a solid defensive typing can allow CAP27 to switch in and do its job more easily against neutral pokemon (ones it doesn't counter but isn't countered by). Many people when they talk about Pokemon tend to forget about these matchups even when they are very common. Secondly during the concept assessment most of the examples people provided had some form of immunity. This makes sense since it allows them to switch in for free and start accomplishing their goals.

 

[lydian]

My post mainly focuses on something else, but just to get this out of the way, I'll give my 0.02$ about Wulfanator's question addressing my post!

On the topic of offensive presence and pressure, Lyd mentions the importance of strong STAB combinations in their post. However, I remember seeing discussion regarding 1 spammable STAB paired with a good single coverage option in the CA. Should we be placing a heightened importance on strong STAB combinations when it comes to compressed coverage or should we be establishing a single STAB option and free up our secondary typing for other purposes?

I'm not sure if this is precisely ideal, no. I think having STAB on both our coverage moves is pretty important for this concept, unless the coverage move is actually about on par with (or stronger than) the damage output of the STAB itself (such as Aegislash's Shadow Claw and Close Combat), but I think generally it feels a bit backward to only pick one typing for its offensive utility and another for other merits as most walls will rarely be threatened by neutral coverage whereas they could be threatened by a neutral STAB! I'm not ruling out this idea, but I think, for the most part, we can think of a type combo that accomplishes all three of a good set of resistances, a good offensive STAB combination, and certain utility brought by certain types, as you'll see further in this post.

Also, a quick note before I continue, I'm taking a little bit more of a general approach as a specific approach with this post. I think CAP concepts should often be considered in the grand scheme of things and not just the current meta, so that's my rationale for going in a bit of a different direction than most with this post.

What I did was write a little Python script to help identify what type combinations have the most resistances. Obviously, nothing is black and white like this, and a resistance to Fairy is far more important than one to Bug, but hopefully, the point here is just to **help** outline a couple of typings that help our CAP have as much defensive utility as we can get with an offensive Pokémon. Here are the typings with the most amount of resistances:

R>11

normal steel 12
electric steel 12
ghost steel 12

As you can see, they're all dual typings with Steel. I haven't seen much discussion on Steel, and understandably so, because it is, for the most part, a pretty bad offensive typing. The main exception here is Ghost / Steel. This typing provides us with a set of 12 resistances, or to be more specific, 9 resistances and 3 immunities, and some of the other perks of being a Steel-type, such as immunity to Toxic and resistance to Stealth Rock, both of which are extremely useful for an offensive pivot like what CAP should be to properly fulfill its goal of being an offensive pivot.

Now let's move onto the next batch of typings:

R>9

fire steel 10
water steel 11
grass steel 10
poison steel 10
ground steel 10
flying steel 10
psychic steel 10
dragon steel 10
dark steel 11
steel steel 11
steel fairy 11

Again, even those with 10 and 11 resistances are exclusively half-Steel-types (or pure Steel-types). And yet again these have pretty mediocre STAB combinations for the most part, which won't cut it for an Offensive Pokémon. The main outliers are Ground / Steel and Dark / Steel. Both typings have pretty strong Offensive coverage on their own merits and retain the Steel-typing's wonderful utility of being Stealth Rock resistant and Poison immune. Lastly, STAB Knock Off is also very useful, giving a nudge for Dark / Steel, in my opinion.

Up next we finally can explore non-Steel options:

R>7

fire electric 8
fire poison 8
fire ghost 9
fire fairy 8
water poison 8
water ghost 8
electric poison 8
ice steel 9
fighting steel 9
bug steel 9
rock steel 9
ghost dragon 8
dragon fairy 8

Fire is an interesting case, while a Will-o-Wisp immunity is very welcome and a Fairy resistance is always appreciated, I don't really like the hazard weakness for a Pokémon like this. Heavy-Duty Boots would help alleviate the stress, but then CAP 27 would have a really hard time switching into Knock Off users, which is anything but ideal. I'll talk a bit more about a type combination with Fire I like, but for now, I'll skip the Fire-types in this list.

Water / Poison and Water / Ghost are very nice. The former enjoys a Poison immunity, whereas the latter provides useful immunities to Normal and Fighting. Both have pretty good offensive combinations, so I'm supporting these.

Fighting / Steel is the last Steel-type I want to address, and while losing two of Steel's resistances might not be ideal, Steel Fighting is pretty good coverage overall, I personally think this typing is relatively outshined by the other Steel examples, but it still deserves a mention, I believe.

Last but not least is Ghost / Dragon, which is also blessed with immunities and has one of the best Offensive STAB combos, all things considered. This one could turn out a tad similar to Dragapult, but it's still an interesting typing nonetheless.

And now the final batch of types:

R > 5

normal fire 7
fire fire 6
fire fighting 6
fire ground 6
fire flying 7
fire bug 6
fire psychic 7
fire rock 7
fire dark 7
water fighting 7
water flying 6
water psychic 6
water dark 7
water fairy 7
electric flying 6
electric ghost 7
electric dragon 6
electric dark 6
electric fairy 6
grass fighting 6
grass psychic 6
grass ghost 6
grass dark 7
grass fairy 7
fighting poison 6
fighting rock 6
fighting dragon 7
poison ground 6
poison flying 6
poison rock 6
poison ghost 6
poison dragon 7
poison fairy 6
ground rock 6
ground ghost 6
ground dark 6
ground fairy 6
flying fire 7
flying electric 6
flying rock 6
flying ghost 6
flying dragon 6
flying fairy 6
bug ghost 6
bug fairy 6
psychic dragon 6
rock ghost 6
rock dark 7
rock fairy 6
dragon dark 7

Fire / Ground and Fire / Fighting are good options for Fire! Unlike other Fire-types, these two are not weak to Stealth Rock and have phenomenal coverage, while still packing an immunity to Will-o-Wisp.

Water / Dark packs STAB Knock Off and amazing Offensive coverage.

Electric / Ghost, Electric / Dragon, Electric / Dark, and Electric / Fairy are all interesting combinations! All provide the coveted STAB Volt Switch and Thunder Wave immunity, whereas Electric / Dark in particular also provides STAB Knock Off should it be physical instead of special (or mixed, you never know). All four have great STAB combos, as well.

Grass / Ghost and Grass / Dark give a Leech Seed immunity on top of strong offensive typings. The former has great immunities from the Ghost-typing, and the latter has STAB Knock Off.

Poison / Ground and Poison / Ghost are both very useful, as well. They have the coveted Toxic immunity and Ghost has, again, useful immunities.

Ground / Rock, Ground / Ghost, Ground / Dark, and Ground / Fairy are also all notable. The first and last pack outstanding, nigh unwallable, coverage. Ghost has useful immunities, and Dark has the coveted STAB Knock Off.

Flying also suffers a bit of a similar conundrum as Fire, in spite of being an amazing type, the Stealth Rock weakness is probably not ideal for a Pokémon like this. The same applies to Bug, as awesome as STAB U-turn would be on a Pokémon like this.

Rock / Ghost is also notable with amazing coverage and two notable immunities.

And that's about it for the types I'd grab from these lists. I'll outline here my preferred types out of these but I think all options here are at least plausible:

Ghost / Steel is probably my favorite due to the HUGE number of resistances and immunities and just, in general, being a really strong typing, I suppose this also may be a tad similar to Kitsunoh, but it should have enough merits to pull different roles, should we succeed in this concept. Steel and Ghost are just such useful typings that I really think this is kind of a no brainer and I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet.

Dark / Steel, the Bisharp typing is really really strong, with a whopping 11 resistances and STAB Knock Off, I think it's also pretty hard to go wrong with this one. Not being able to switch into Fairies as comfortably as other Steel-typings is a shame, but it shouldn't rule out such a strong typing.

Water / Poison is my jam too, I think I prefer it slightly over the Ghost counterpart beautifully outlined in quziel's post. Mostly because I think the Toxic immunity truly adds a lot to a Pokémon like this.

Fire / Ground and Ground / Fairy also standout a lot to me, as somehow both of these are outstanding offensive AND defensive typings. While they don't have as many resistances as the above typings they should still have plenty of freedom to switch into several walls and threaten them from there.

And last I'll also highlight Poison / Ghost as it's a strong offensive typing packing Ghost's useful immunities and Poison's Toxic immunity. We've seen with Gengar how this can be a potent typing and I think it could work great for CAP 27 as well!

Sorry if this post came out as a bit too long, I tried to keep the typing descriptions relatively short not to clutter it more, but if you reading this would want me to expand my thoughts on any of these please let me know! Thanks for reading :)

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

I guess the type combo Im looking for is something that has a mix of offensive and defensive utility. Also, offensive typing needs to have STAB moves that provides utility via secondary effects which to me, is the best way of achieving offensive team support.

As posted by Lyd, Steel offers the most defensive utility. Tons of resistances, immunity to poison (and poison status), and a SR resistance. But the type is so lack luster offensively and a lot of offensive steel moves lacks utility. This can be mitigated by paring with a strong offensive typing. A good example of this is which usually doesn't run steel moves because of its coverage and the power of its Fire Moves.


I love normal/ghost. Very unique type combo that has great offensive and defensive utility. For utility options, Body Slam and Rapid Spin come to mind.

Ground/Fairy is also appealing to similar reasons as normal/ghost. Unique typing that provide a mixture of offensive/defensive utility. But like Voltage said, I kind of don't want a fairy type. Spirit Break or Moonblast provides SpA control which is nice quality and Bulldoze for Speed control.

So while Im not a huge fan of Dark typing (especially with pursuit being gone), but I really like Poison/Dark Typing. Its a great defensive typing that gives an immunity to psy, immunity to poison, and absorbs toxic spikes. Obviously STAB Knock Off is huge, and spreading poison is good. provides a great example of what this type is capable of.

In general, I like fire typing. For a particular combo, consider Fire/Flying. As shown by in Ubers, the typing provides some notable defensive traits like a fairy resist, fighting-resist, ground immunity, immunity to toxic spikes and spikes, and an immunity to burn. Movepool wise, you have powerful STAB on both sides (BB, Hurricane, Flare Blitz, Fire Blast) while other STAB moves have a bit less power but great utility. Fire Lash lowers Def, Mystical Fire Controls SpA, Sacred Fire and Lava Plume have high burn chances. Oblivion Wing is awesome because has good power that gives the Pokemon longevity without a cost to its momentum. While a X4 weakness to SR is a concern, this is less of an issue in Gen 8 thanks to Heavy Duty Boots, or a proper choice of ability (don't want to discuss this though because poll jumping).

 

[snake]

Alrighty, let's get a post in that advocates for some typings.

But first, I want to address two things I've noticed in the thread and on Discord so far: the assumed importance of a Fairy-type resist and Stealth Rock weak typings.

First, the new Arena Trap-free metagame is a lot less Fairy-focused than the previous metagame. With Dugtrio + Fairy-type cores everywhere, Fairy-type resists were in short supply. That simply isn't the case anymore; we have plenty of Fairy-type checks to go around now. Clefable may be S-rank, but Jumbao and Kerfluffle are simply less effective as they once were. Thus, while Fairy-type resistance is still very nice, it's certainly not a requirement, so I encourage everyone to open up to the prospect of having Fairy-type neutral typings.

Second, I don't understand why people STILL feel so negatively about Stealth Rock-weak typings. Before Generation 8, the sentiment was "Stealth Rock will wear down this typing far too quickly, so we shouldn't have that typing." Now, the advent of Heavy-Duty Boots, the sentiment is "Stealth Rock forces CAP27 to run Heavy-Duty Boots, so we shouldn't have that typing." While this is a legitimate concern, thing about this for a second. Heavy-Duty Boots actually allows CAP27 to explore Stealth Rock-weak typings that have good offensive / defensive prowess. The fact that it can run Heavy-Duty Boots and ignore Stealth Rock damage (as well as other hazards!) is a good thing. The opportunity cost of not running another item is annoying, sure, but now we can really explore a lot of typings without having to fear Stealth Rock! So, I also encourage everyone to consider Stealth-Rock weak typings with greater confidence than previous generations.

Why do I bring those two points up? Well I'd like to show why I think Fire and Dark typings have great potential for this project. Now, let's get into some of the typings I really like (in no particular order, not an exhaustive list):

• Fire / Dragon
• Fire / Flying
• Poison / Dark
• Fire / Dark
• Fire / Psychic

Fire / Dragon: The offensive coverage on this typing is amazing. Taking neutral damage from any of Clefable's numerous coverage moves is pretty nifty, and resisting Rotom-H's STABs is also pretty great. It does have some key weaknesses to Dragon, Rock, and Ground, as well as taking neutral damage from Ice and Fairy, but it can compress all of the offensive coverage to hit everything for neutral damage into two moveslots, leaving its other two free moveslots for whatever it wants to run. Plus, Fire typing has a lot of moves that have useful secondary effects, with Dragon picking up the neutral damage slack. Even though it's weak to Stealth Rock, it doesn't have to run Heavy-Duty Boots; although I certainly think it would be its best item.

Fire / Flying: Alright, I know what this typing bleeds: Stealth Rock weakness. Look past that for a second and look at the benefits. As Mx pointed out, Ground- and Fighting-type coverage is incredibly common in this metagame, so taking reduced damage from those is key. Not resisting Ice could be an issue, but it resists Syclant's U-turn, meaning it won't get chipped down so quickly. Fire / Flying just sits on Equilibra and Jumbao as well. Offensively, it's resisted by Rotom-H, Rotom-W, Crucibelle, and Tyranitar, of which Rotom-H is the most common by far. Of course, the Stealth Rock weakness exists, but try to turn your thinking around. This is the best chance we've ever had to explore Fire / Flying: Heavy-Duty Boots exist as an item to allow this typing to flourish properly. Another benefit is that Tyranitar cannot Pursuit trap it now. Overall, Fire / Flying is a really solid typing whose advantages I don't want to overlook in this thread.

Poison / Dark: I really struggle to see how this type isn't overall just better than Poison / Normal. Offenisvely, Poison / Dark is simply better. With just STAB coverage, it doesn't miss out on any Steel- or Ghost-types. Also, its STAB coverage can cripple any switch-ins with Poison status or potential item removal, which is extremely handy because that's just two moveslots being used. Poison / Normal on the other hand either has STABs that compete with status inflictions and/or just aren't that great offensively. Poison / Dark's matchup against Will-O-Wisp Dragapult could be a little shaky if we go physical, but in terms of Dark-typings, I think this one is pretty solid.

Fire / Dark: As I'm typing this post, I realized that taking the two typings I like a lot and smashing them together works pretty well. This typing takes the offensive prowess of Fire / Dragon and some of the defensive qualities of Poison / Dark and combines them to be quite neat actually! It takes on Wisp + Hex combination with ease, meaning it can move forward in the project comfortably either as a Physical or a Special attacker. Fire and Dark have excellent offensive utility options between burn and item-removal, and taking neutral damage from any of Clefable's attacks is still really neat. Like Fire / Dragon and Poison / Dark, Fire / Dark has very few Pokemon that resist its coverage (Hydreigon, Terrakion, Kommo-O), and, again, can compress good crippling offensive moves into its STAB coverage. And then it has two more moveslots! Defensively it sacrifices a little bit by being weak to Fighting, which means it can't pivot into Jumbao as easily, but the positives are still quite alluring. Fire / Dark is actually a super solid typing that could really go places I think.

Fire / Psychic: Another typing I'm considering as I'm typing up this post is Fire / Psychic. It has one big advantage over all of the other Fire typings I've mentioned so far: absolutely destroying Toxapex, Arghonaut, and Mollux. With this prowess, it's able to dismantle cores with Corviknight, Ferrothorn, and Equilibra too (offensively at least). Defensively it's got a surprisingly solid set of resistances (Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Steel) but also a bad set of weaknesses (Dark, Ghost, Ground, Rock, Water). Those resistances matter less when you realize that you're really only walling Jumbao in terms of high-profile Pokemon, but you're still only neutral damage from Clefable's special moves though! What Fire has over other Psychic typings is its innate immunity to burns, meaning it can't take double damage from Dragaputl's Will-o-Wisp + Hex combination, and Psychic-type moves can hit Dragapult for some good damage. It's got some weird advantages and disadvantages, but I think it's worth considering.

Summary:

1) Consider typings that take neutral damage from Fairy-types a little more seriously. A resistance to Fairy-type moves is good, but not a requirement.

2) Don't confuse Heavy-Duty Boots as a detriment to the viability of a Stealth Rock-weak typing. Heavy-Duty Boots means that a Stealth Rock weakness is certainly not as damaging to a typing's consideration in previous generations because item opportunity cost is far less damning than taking 25% chip damage from Stealth Rock.

3) The typings I've outlined in this post all have their distinct offensive and defensive advantages that will allow CAP27 to support its team well. If I had to bracket them by how much I like them, I'd say I like:

• Fire / Dark, Fire / Dragon, and Fire / Flying the best
• Poison / Dark and Fire / Psychic a little less

4) And to reiterate, Poison / Normal has a couple of neat things over Poison Dark, but ultimately I think the STAB coverage on Poison / Normal is too poor to consider for this project.