CAP 27 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[MrPanda]

Also you missed a few typings, eg fire/dragon doesn't have electric listed, nor grass or bug.

Yeah I know. As I said, I preferred to focus on currently threatening types of the metagame. By this way, the only really relevant users of the Grass type are Jumbao and Ferro, anything besides them is probably not as good or prefers another coverage type. Electric and Bug are a separate case. Although they have only a few currently relevant examples, they are widely used as coverage (Electric-type mostly) or by pivots. Still, they are not as common or threatening as some of the examples mentioned in the post. In addition, you could say: "From that point of view, Fairy would also fall into that category". Yes, the Fairy type is really bad at the moment (except by Clef), and initially I didn't intend to include him there, but I thought, as has had a big discussion around the Fairy type at the beginning of the topic, maybe would be interesting to include it.

Off the topic, I really like Electric/Steel and Flying typings.

 

[theotherguytm]

Steel in general I'm ehh on. Sure it only has 3 weaknesses, but:

• Those 3 weaknesses are among the most potent attacking types.
• Nearly every attacker worth its salt carries a move just to hit Steels (plus as mentioned those moves are of great offensive types in general), so mons we check on paper are often going to nail us. It's not as bad as it was in the days of Hidden Power, but moves like Mystical Fire and Close Combat getting tons of distribution this gen don't help.
• Steel is a terrible offensive typing. No getting around it.

Basically Steel suffers from being "too good" defensively, and has issues fulfilling the "offensive" part of "offensive team support".
As for Steel Electric, well what's the difference between that and pure Steel tbh. Marginally better offensively and now resists Electric. That's about it.

And I'd like to point out on the subject of Dark: There are two mons on the entire CAP VR that are Dark and use support sets.

Mandibuzz is a great mon, but realistically its offenses are so dire and its movepool so empty that it can't help but run support sets. It has no offenses at all, and really its support pool consists of Knock, Toxic, Taunt, Defog and U-turn. So it's really just a hazard removal pivot that Knocks.
Grimmsnarl literally is made for support with access to Prankster. It makes a great dual Screens setter and can also run a Bulk Up set. But it can't do both. It has to choose between being a passive but effective HO support or a solo threat. And it doesn't even get Knock.

Worth pointing out that both of these have a secondary typing that neutralizes their U-turn and Fighting weaknesses, which would otherwise make their job a lot harder. Looking at both of these, I'm not seeing where Dark's supposed large support pool is coming from. Because there are 0 Dark mons on the VR that even come close to having a deep support pool that they regularly use. So again, STAB on Knock Off woo. I really don't want to get to the point where we have to make another Mandibuzz with terrible offenses or gimped movepool just so it doesn't turn into a Knock Off Attacker. Because Colossoil, Bisharp, Crawdaunt and Obstagoon can tell us all about that (despite several of them being blessed with a support pool to ignore). And it we do gimp its offenses so it doesn't turn out like them, well we just made a Drapion, Incineroar or Pangoro for the lower tiers. Heck, Malaconda gets Knock and a good support pool, yet no-one uses that. So no Dark please. Game Freak has thoroughly explored this area, and the conclusion is that STAB Knock just means a balancing act between making its offenses decent so it doesn't flop and not giving it the tools to just become a breaker.

 

[G-Luke]

On mobile now, but I have not shared any thoughts so I guess now is as good as a chance to do so.

Gonna throw in support for Electric/Flying. Its not the coveted fire typing, but I think it has enough solid traits to make an name for itself. Electric/Flying has important resists to Ground and Fighting, and Electric provides solid utility options in STAB pivoting moves, and moves that can induce paralysis. Not being as heavily crippled by Knock Off as Fire/Flying is also a major selling point, as losing 50% from SR is a lot worse than 25%. Absorbing the paralysis status is another, though less important factor. Zapdos has proved its defensive utility in the past well, and even though it lacks Flying STAB to utilize, CAP 27 may not be held back by this restriction. Thundurus-I in Gen 6 is also an excellent example for an offensive support Pokemon. Prankster Thunder Wave was extremely potent, basically near guaranteeing that Thundy would stop a sweeper from being able to steamroll teams, while forcing out other threats with its powerful STAB Thunderbolt.

TL;DR, Electric/Flying is a good option to head to for CAP 27, giving plenty of good options to use.

 

[Wulfanator]

Well after a lengthy and positive typing discussion, the time has come to close the thread ♫. As a first time TLT member, this entire process has been incredible intimidating and exhausting, but here we are. Big thank you to the rest of the TLT and mods for helping me get my head screwed on straight at times. With out further ado, here is your typing slate for CAP 27 (in alphabetical order).

Fire/Dark
Fire/Dragon
Fire/Flying
Normal/Fire
Poison/Dark
Poison/Dragon
Water/Ghost

Reason for Slate

Regardless of my opinions on the typings listed, all saw significantly more user-support in the thread compared to any other typing. This was the driving factor for this slate.

Fire/Dark
Fire/Dark possesses a set of unique qualities that make this a very desirable option for this concept. Dark offer a ghost resist which is easily one of the most spammed move types. Fire adds some nice resistances to the typing and removing the fairy weakness of dark is a nice bonus. The type creates some some interesting matchups to things like Dragapult and Aegislash (i.e. being able to switch into Pult’s wisp + hex and Aegis’ STAB options). This interested a lot of users in the thread and could be a very fun type to explore.

Fire/Dragon
This was, easily, the frontrunner of the type combination discussion. Fire/Dragon has outstanding offensive potential with just its STABs. This can make for great 2 move coverage and can free up additional moveslots to fulfill its role as a support. There were some concerns that this typing veers toward becoming very offensive which can potentially hurt the support element of our concept. This is a valid concern, but in no way makes it a bad typing for the concept. It is just something to be cautious about moving forward if this is the route we decide to pursue.

Fire/Flying
I would consider this to be the second most discussed typing. Going back to Mx’s list of most common attack types, Fire/Flying resists or is immune to the three most common attack types: Ground, Fighting, and Fairy. The defensive utility is very desirable, and the combination still maintains a strong offensive presence with extremely spammable STABs.

Normal/Fire
In general, Normal typing was a difficult decision when it came to slating. The TLT believed the typing was being shoehorned into the process instead of being a naturally good fit. However, normal typings saw a lot of support, so it seemed important to reflect those opinions in the slate regardless of our gripes. Normal/Fire appeared to have the most potential out of all the normal-types suggested. The typing maintains all the desirable resists fire offers and provides a lesser important but usable ghost immunity. Fire and Normal is decent offensive pressure and both types have some solid STAB utility options.

Poison/Dark
Poison/Dark was the most discussed poison-type. The STAB combination has very few relevant counters which makes it a great candidate for the offensive half of our concept. Unfortunately, the type does lack in the resistances department. A single weakness (ground) and two relevant resists (ghost and dark), while nice, makes it more difficult to preform repeated utility. Trying to find creative solutions to overcome this problem could make Poison/Dark an interesting option.

Poison/Dragon
Poison/Dragon saw a last-minute wave of support. The elemental resists of dragon paired with the toxic immunity of poison give this typing great defensive play against prevalent, top-tier threats. The STAB combination has major problems with steel-types but is otherwise solid. This was probably the strongest poison candidate when focusing on the defensive utility side of the concept.

Water/Ghost
I regularly saw this typing pop up throughout the thread. This made it one of the first types to be considered for the slate outside of the dominance that was the fire-type. Surprisingly, Hydreigon is the only major counter to this STAB combination. Both ghost and water have interesting utility options that can complement each other, and the type has a solid list of resists and immunities. Fire/Ghost covered a lot of the same bases as Water/Ghost did, but the former saw less discussion and the latter offers some appreciated slate diversity.

I think that is all I have left to say. Feel free to message me with any other questions you may have regarding the slate and remember to wear your seat belt.

Now over to Jho to close us out.

P.S. I hope you all enjoy the song :)

 

[Jho]

The above slate really represents the discussion well and has some really interesting options for us to explore. It's a thumbs up from me, on to the poll !