CAP 27 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

[Karoshi]

Having a x2 weakness to Stealth Rocks is bad but not the end of the world. I find it a bit silly how a bunch of people are saying we need Magic Guard or HDB just to be useful. I agree Magic Guard is on topic and covers alot of our bad points but I feel like it is shooting an ant with an elephant gun. Magic Guard would let CAP27: Be immune to Sand/Hail, Poison, Leech Seed, Life Orb recoil, Attack Recoil, Spikes, SRocks and several other things I probably forgot. It is considered one of the best abilities in the game for a reason. Even ignoring Life Orb (though it would be its best item) there is still dumb things you can do with items. Alakazam was a problem in UU for several gens because it let it run Focus Sash on a frail Pokemon. It turned Pokemon that could one shot it into winning matchups with virtually no counter-play. Take into account we are a Fire/Dragon and have that weird 50/50 across the board and suddenly we have a Pokemon that counters almost all of them. People are also forgetting about Mega Crucibelle, another CAP with Magic Guard, who without Life Orb had to be nerfed as Head Smash was too powerful of an option. Lastly we would have to fine tune the Pokemon under the assumption it would always be running Life Orb limiting its capabilities of being versatility and using other items.

I agree it is on topic and a good ability to help us with our utility but There are better options that would be way less controversial. There are dozens of other Abilities mentioned in this thread even those I personally don't like and think even those would be a better choice.

 

[Dogfish44]

My two cents entire dollar on the whole 'Life Orb Magic Guard' stuff: I don't hugely like Magic Guard (though a number of arguments on matters such as the risk of being strong I think are overblown, I do dislike how it negates the ability of Toxic to be used against us), but unless you're advocating Sticky Hold (which is a good ability that I do like), I don't think it creates a Knock Off 'weakness' - I mean, if we're reasonably assuming HDB on other abilities, all that changes is that Knock Off moves from crippling our utility as a switch in, to crippling our offensivve presence. It changes the problem, buuuuut I don't think it's inherently worse either way.

I think in purely conceptual terms, I'm fond of abilities which enable specific support options - to me that's No Guard and Technician. I'm not naming the moves, but a lot of support (especially in Dragon-type moves) is around the 60 BP mark... whilst No Guard's enabled trio is pretty well known.

Grassy Surge kills the artists is an interesting train of thought - the passive healing is really passive, but it does provide a rather direct form of support, in a way that other abilities I think can't. I also think that quite a lot of other defensive options can pair up really well here, which means even the passive terrain healing could be made substantial.

I think a lot comes down to a key question - should our Primary ability be about shoring up what we already have (Sticky Hold, Magic Guard, Regen), or do we want our ability to unlock something new - though potentially riskier? To me, unlocking new things feels the more interesting route for exploring the concept, but I can certainly live with the idea of being consistent.

gib Parental Bond btw

 

[BP]

I think a lot comes down to a key question - should our Primary ability be about shoring up what we already have (Sticky Hold, Magic Guard, Regen), or do we want our ability to unlock something new - though potentially riskier

I disagree with this Sentiment. I feel that we should absolutely focus on shoring up what we already have. With that being said I do agree we should remove Magic Guard from the realm of possibilities due to it pushing CAP 27 into a boring Life Orb all out attacker direction. I think we should be looking at how the Pokemon could best provide utility and support for its team. After all that's the concept we are focusing on. We all have different opinions on what ability can best achieve or embody this goal. As of right now I think Regenerator, and Natural Cure are all the best possible options for CAP 27.

Regenerator: Regen gives CAP 27 a plethora of switch in opportunities and furthermore it encourages it to come in and do its job more often. Thus, CAP 27 is able to support and provide its teammates with utility for a longer period of time. This is incredibly beneficial for CAP 27 not only offensively but also defensively. I can't really say expand anymore on this ability because we've already talked about it so extensively, but I firmly believe that it's a step in the right direction for fulfilling this concept.


Natural Cure: NC allows CAP 27 to outright provide support for its team via status absorption. With the limited number of clerics we have in the meta at the moment this ability opens up so much potential for offensive and balance cores. Not only this but it encourages the use of the Item Heavy-Duty boots to shrug off hazard damage. Granted we should refrain from getting hung up on what items CAP 27 would run this early in the process. This creates so much room for CAP 27 to move in and out of the playing field. I'd even argue that Natural Cure grants CAP 27 with the most potential via support options and could end up being an integral part of the meta with its offensive typing combined with a more defensive ability.


Regarding Magic Guard:

agree it is on topic and a good ability to help us with our utility but There are better options that would be way less controversial.

There isn't really a need to say anything else. If we give CAP 27 Magic Guard it end up looking like a support Zam set. This ends up being the best case scenario if we do end up deciding on on Magic Guard.

 

[GMars]

Alright, I've read through all the posts (some of y'all make very long posts. pip's was nearly 2000 words. .-.) a couple times and wanted to chime in.

Overall, there is a consensus that our ability at least needs to help CAP 27's defensive utility. If the primary ability can help both defensive and offensive utility then that's a bonus, but the defensive side is the base minimum. We can mark that down as something that's been nearly universally agreed upon in this stage.

Because of this consensus, I question Technician's role in the primary ability discussion when people seemed so certain of their answers to the first question. Technician opens up utility but does not provide you with additional ability to switch in, only tangentially improving your defense through Breaking Swipe, which if you're assuming at this stage would be a poll jump.

Now to move to the elephant in the thread. People have centralized the main discussion over items--two items in particular really, Heavy Duty Boots and Life Orb. Currently, I feel as if the importance of items is being overstated. This might be due to many of our switch-ins having Knock Off and Trick in their kit, which makes Sticky Hold an appealing option, but causes many people to hyper-focus on certain abilities as causing a "weakness" to losing an item, rather than focusing on the strengths the abilities provide. In the case where a Life Orb Magic Guard CAP 27 comes in on Ferrothorn and is hit with Knock Off, they still beat Ferrothorn by virtue of their STAB and are now more inclined than ever to use support options than coverage, encouraging mixing offense with support on sets rather than going full All-Out Attacker.

I want to ask a question to help refocus discussion while still keeping people's concerns to this point in mind:

4) What is more important for our CAP to fulfill its role as an offensive support: an ability which accentuates its defensive utility and ability to support its team, or its synergy with certain items?

GMars are there any abilities you want us to discuss more or less?

Personally, I would love to see more discussion on Neutralizing Gas and Corrosion, just because I feel as if they're interesting abilities that merit a bit more thought and chance to shine in the thread. I'd like specifics on both, since Corrosion right now just seems to boil down to Toxapex as the only target people have talked about that isn't afraid of our STAB combination and as people have pointed out on Discord it seems to be in the same boat as Technician in that it doesn't appear to help us with defensive utility. I know some people have mentioned they're fans of these abilities, so now's the time to argue for them if you want them to have a chance. I'd also like to see a bit more on Grassy Terrain, primarily because of the concern I have with people assuming Grass-type coverage with it. The more you incentivize coverage, the less slots you have available for support options. Can reasonable sets exist with this Ability that achieve the goal of an offensive support Pokemon? Since this is not movepool discussion, I simply want people to think about this if the reason they support Grassy Terrain is because of Grass coverage, rather than letting it stand on its own through its other merits of recovery and team support.

 

[MrDollSteak]

4) What is more important for our CAP to fulfill its role as an offensive support: an ability which accentuates its defensive utility and ability to support its team, or its synergy with certain items?

I think this is an interesting question, and ultimately one that I think to cop out can be answered ideally with "both." The main reason I say that is because its synergy with certain items can accentuate its defensive utility. Heavy Duty Boots which has been the basis of a lot of discussion, does much to preserve CAP 27's healthpool and subsequently supports its defensive utility. Therefore an ability that has synergy with Boots can also be accentuating its defensive utility and as a result its ability to support its team.

Of course it's a little bit more complex than that because there are abilities such as the aforementioned Regenerator, Levitate or Magic Guard that either reduce or remove completely the need for Boots, and are still premium in regards to accentuating defensive utility. That said, as there are plenty of Flying types and Regenerator mons that aim to use Boots anyway, and I doubt CAP 27 would be an exception to that, and as such do prefer them to Magic Guard in the sense that they still have positive synergy with one of the main items we've been discussing.

I guess with this in mind, as somewhat of a TL;DR for this question, what I find the most important is prioritising defensive utility, with the caveat that this can be achieved by having strong synergy with a held item such as Heavy Duty Boots.

Ability Discussion:

One ability that I believe Quziel first mentioned and I haven't seen much discussion on is Multiscale. The reason why I bring this up now, is because I think it hits the right balance in regards to the question above. It is clearly a pro-concept ability in regards to promoting defensive utility and switch-in opportunities and it also has great synergy with Heavy Duty Boots. Staying at full health is necessary for the ability to proc, and subsequently the removal of Hazard damage will allow for the ability to work particularly well at a few points throughout the match.

While I have just mentioned Levitate, its not one that has received a ton of discussion, so I want to clarify a few benefits and weaknesses of it. It is of course incredibly powerful to lose a weakness to Ground type attacks, and will do a lot to shore up CAP 27s defensive utility. Personally I think that it affects pressure matchups against Pokemon such as Syclant, Excadrill, Krilowatt, Colossoil and Mamoswine too significantly, but that said, it doesn't do much to invalidate our existing Checks and Counters.

I'm not a fan of either Neutralizing Gas or Corrosion. They are interesting abilities, but unfortunately I don't believe they achieve what we want as an offensive support Pokemon, and have some undesirable interactions with our C & C, namely Toxapex. While Neutralizing Gas does provide some interesting defensive utility in regards to swapping in on Guts abusers such as Obstagoon, Conkeldurr and Colossoil, these aren't necessarily the main Pokemon we should be swapping in to. Corrosion I think is in a similar boat to Technician, wherein it does not provide any defensive utility, and serves only to muscle past Toxapex, since most Steel-types we'll be switching in on will be more scared of our Fire STAB.

 

[quziel]

Hey, so I mentioned this one in my earlier post, but I'd like to shill it a bit further, now that I've had a few discussions on PS and in the Discord.

Multiscale is a really, really, cool ability that inherently provides more defensive utility to a mon, but in such a way that enables offensive playstyles. That is, by providing a one time half damage, we are suddenly able to function as a situational revenge killer, which we all know is a perpetually offensive role. Not only that, but because of this half damage, we suddenly have a cushion to be able to use utility moves against almost anything. The ability to function as a panic button, akin to Sturdy, but one that is far more interactive (aka you can't randomly tank a +2 Terrak even with Multiscale up) means that we have a lot more depth in the design space than something like that.

I have seen some worrying that this would sorta devolve into clicking recovery (assuming we get it) every time we switch in to preserve Multiscale, but I don't think that's entirely true; we can look back to BW era Dragonite to see that it was entirely capable of running sets such as Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Roost / Twave, and it actually clicked every move on the set, which IMO entirely encapsulates one aspect of Offensive Support. I don't know if that exact mix of moves is super wise for us, but it shows that a mon can use a mixture of offensive and support options with Multiscale to good effect. Lunala's Shadow Shield (aka a clone of Multiscale) didn't necessarily lead to support sets, but really helped out the Scarf set function as a revenge killer, and helped the CM set fulfill a similar role if it needed to flex into it. And like, in matchups where Multiscale's revenge killing isn't especially needed, it can just function as a way to get one easy switchin, which I view to be very relevant to the offensive parts of this concept.

The incredible flexiblity in play patterns offered by Multiscale, its enabling of pseudo-revenge killing sets while still being interactive, and well, how its a defensive ability that helps to supplement offensive playstyles really makes me love it for this concept.

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Neutralizing Gas is an interesting one, and lets us play that "switch into pex on the turn its predicted to go out and deny its regen game" which is something that is definitely a team support play. Additionally helping teammates wear down a Toxic'd Clefable, and potentially sponging the attacks of guts breakers is really cool. That said, outside of the admittedly incredibly cool interaction with Pex, where we still lose to it, but we can deny its greatest strength with good play, I don't see how else it really impacts us. Overall a cool option, just not one that's broadly applicable.

Corrosion is another cool option, this time fully focusing on how to beat up Pex. This is def one of the more dangerous options, as like, I'm sure we all know how incredibly strong Toxic is, and removing all of the immunities to it is scary. Practically we don't care much about Steel losing its immunity because of Fire-STAB, but taking what is supposed to be one of our best answers, Pex, and turning it into a matchup we arguably win has me a bit apprehensive. Also I don't know if just like Toxicing stuff really fulfills the concept of Offensive Team Support.

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I also sorta feel like the ability stage is getting hyper-focused on HDB, like, even if pex knocks our boots away we still are a mon; we def hate it, and we def would switch out of that matchup, but like, we're still a mon, we can still switch in (provided we have more than 25% HP), and that's supposed to be a losing matchup anyways. For that reason I don't really love Sticky Hold as a primary ability; its definitely good for us, its just not as impactful as I'd like a primary ability to be. For similar, and opposite reasons, I don't love Regen; its putting a lot of our strength in the ability, more than almost anything other than Magic Guard, and like, I fear it would require severe cuts to either our Movepool or Stats to not be overbearing.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

Toxapex is in our list of Checks - pardon me if this is a dumb question - but why specifically are you looking at abilities that assist with hurting something there?

 

[BP]

4) What is more important for our CAP to fulfill its role as an offensive support: an ability which accentuates its defensive utility and ability to support its team, or its synergy with certain items

An ability which accentuates CAP 27's defensive utility and its ability to support its team is the end goal here. I said it in an earlier post but we should not be focusing on Item placements this earlier on in the concept. Right now we are focusing on how CAP 27 can support its team or have an easier time supporting its team via its ability. There is no reason to design CAP 27 so it fits with a few select items, that isn't the concept.

So first and foremost, now that I've answered that question, there are a few abilities that I need to provide a more in depth opinions on:

Regen & Magic Guard

I don't love Regen; its putting a lot of our strength in the ability, more than almost anything other than Magic Guard, and like, I fear it would require severe cuts to either our Movepool or Stats to not be overbearing.

This sums up my final thoughts on the two abilities. You can also throw Magic Bounce onto this list as well. Much too constricting and simply not fun.


Multiscale
I agree with quziel's stance on Multiscale entirely. It has the potential to go many routes in terms of both offensive and defensive support. It's a fantastic option that allows us to be more flexible in terms of CAP 27's support roles. If we look at the Dragonite example given, it is essentially one of the many ideal results. For those who aren't familiar with support BW Dragonite it was sort of variety pack of support Pokemon. It opened up holes in the opposing team thanks to its access to Fire Blast and of course its STAB Draco Meteor. Furthermore, Thunder-Wave provided Dragonite's slower teammates with more opportunities in the match but also allowed it to click Roost more often. Granted this is more of an offensive example, but there is a more defensive example which was primarily a phazer on hazard oriented teams. Multiscale allows CAP 27 to become a more flexible support Pokemon both offensively and defensively.

Levitate
I mentioned Levitate back during my first post as an honorable mention of sorts mainly because I was on the edge. I've come to the conclusion that Levitate would be a very positive addition in terms of offensive and defensive utility. Adding a Ground-type immunity is huge for CAP 27 due to its already high number of resistances. This would effectively make a long list of Pokemon less threatening. Excadrill, Krillowat, and Syclant to name a few. This would allow CAP 27 to better support Pokemon that struggle with Ground-types such as Aegislash, Toxapex, Bisharp, and Mollux. Additionally, it only leaves Stealth Rocks as something to worry about while coming in. The amount of offensive and defensive support CAP 27 would be able to provide for the team is notable. For these reasons Levitate should not be overlooked as a potential ability.

Natural Cure
I've had extensive conversations about this ability and its usefulness via irc discussions on discord. My main reason for supporting this ability is because of how status can affect a support Pokemon's ability to perform its role correctly. Again I would like to bring up Swampert in ADV singles. Arguably, Swampert's biggest weakness was early game status. Swampert often runs Refresh over either Roar, Toxic, Protect, or a Coverage move on its support sets. This isn't to say that Swampert is the only support Pokemon that suffers from this. ADV Zapdos is another glaring example that, once statused, loses almost all of its integrity as not only a pivot but also as offensive support. If CAP 27 becomes subject to status from the likes of Jirachi, Aegislash, Rotom-H, etc. than it loses heaps of integrity as support. This doesn't even begin to mention that, with Natural Cure, CAP 27 can become a consistent status absorber, which we currently have few of.

To find further evidence of Natural Cure being extremely beneficial for utility and support Pokemon look no further than ADV Starmie. Starmie was the premier Rapid Spin user in OU. This was because Its powerful offensive STAB moves allowed it to more easily punish Spike users. Namely Foretress and Skarmory both of which carried carried Toxic. With Natural Cure, CAP 27 is granted a much greater opportunity to succeed in its role to provide its team with both offensive and defensive support and utility.

EDIT: Regarding Natural Cure also see Tinkerbell Celebi ( a DPP Support set focused on Celebi's Offensive and Defensive capabilities)

 

[theotherguytm]

Ok, having spent time on the naughty step revised my thought process a bit, I want to chime in on some thoughts in on the question Gmars asked.

4) What is more important for our CAP to fulfill its role as an offensive support: an ability which accentuates its defensive utility and ability to support its team, or its synergy with certain items?

If you'll allow me a quick tangent...

There are certain Pokemon whose synergy with particular items vastly improved their utility. As a basic example, it is very improbable that Cinderace would be a successful Court Change user without Heavy Duty Boots, which is one of the main reason sets like Choice Band have never caught on.
But I think the best example here of an item that improved utility is Exadrill, a Pokemon not always associated with defensive utility. In Drill's dreams, it is found holding a Life Orb, merrily blowing though teams at +2 with the sand at its back. But more often that not, it ends up running Rapid Spin, Mold Breaker and Leftovers. Leftovers might seem an illogical choice on an offensively minded Pokemon, but it works wonders with Drill's multiple immunities and quadruple Rocks resist, preventing it being worn down by passive damage during a game so it still healthy when it goes for the sweep lategame. In this way, Drill becomes a wincon that can stay healthy while still providing team support instead of benching itself to maintain health.

So to bring this wildly swerving train back on track, how does this relate to Abilities? I think it shows that a Pokemon's item is determined by its role moreso than any innate traits it has. Cinderace's high Attack, Speed, lack of setup and access to U-turn scream "Choice Band!" but it is used as a Court Change pivot, which appreciates Boots more. If Cinderace didn't have Court Change, it probably would run Choice Band. And Drill, instead of the outright Life Orb sweeper it dreams of being, ends up being a role compression monster that relies on Leftovers to keep itself healthy for the sweep thanks to Rapid Spin. Overall then, I'd like to say that most Pokemon are not directly dependent on any one item, and neither will CAP 27 in all probability. The item CAP 27 runs might come down to a footnote in its movepool (eg: someone might just throw on the only Dragon Status move, if you think this is unrealistic see Hydreigon who now gets it but never uses it).
Having said that, when an item does coordinate well with an Ability, the results can be dramatic. Just ask Garm (choices) and Conk (Guts/FO or Sheer Force/LO) offensively, or Ferro (Rocky Helmet/Iron Barbs) and Corv (Leftovers/Pressure) defensively. I guess what I'm saying here is it's ok if we build CAP 27 with an item in mind, but there's always the chance it ends up running another one. And Rocks weakness does not always imply Boots, see Ho-Oh and Moltres, who were able to be used as Defoggers last gen by switching into Rock setters, preventing the Rocks going up in the first place.

To finally answer the question, I think an Ability that maximises its defensive utility is the most important aspect. I still think Sticky Hold is the way forward with this however. Taking increased damage from Knock Off is not as scary as it sounds:
+1 252 Atk Zeraora (112) Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Turtonator (60/135): 110-130 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn (94) Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Turtonator: 51-61 (19.5 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO
And in both cases they would rather be hitting us with other coverage (Close Combat and Body Press respectively).
252 Atk Choice Band Caribolt (106) Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Turtonator: 107-126 (40.9 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
While Turtonator is pretty physically bulky, I just wanted to show that taking extra damage from Knock Off on multiple uses isn't as much of a pain as it sounds, and in most cases the Knock Off user has other ways to hit us harder. I disagree with the sentiment that it limits us to absorbing Knocks from only passive mons (the first hit will be 97.5 BP whatever we do) and I would like to reiterate how useful a Trick immunity is in dealing with our switch-ins, not to mention being unique defensive utility for a team. In the spirit of the above paragraphs, I want to highlight some other items that Sticky Hold could work well with.

• Berries: Someone else bought this up already, but being able to Recycle them consistently is useful if we decide on that. It also removes the chance that the Berry gets removed before being eaten.
• Leftovers. Simple, straightforward.
• Choice Items. Not only preventing them being Knocked Off, but Tricking them onto things and preventing them being Tricked back.
• Rocky Helmet. Further punishing Knock Off, and punishing U-turn as well.
• Negative items, eg: Sticky Barb or Iron Ball. Again, Tricking them without giving your opponent the option to switch in a Trick user and Trick them back.

Other Abilities that have caught my eye: Serene Grace (the chance to use it in a non-toxic way sounds great), Multiscale (so long as we avoid setup I think this works) and Levitate (I also mentioned it as a throwaway, but to me it makes sense as a "safe" ability).

 

[Deck Knight]

This should be my last sort of big round-up/commentary post.

Corrosion: Corrosion is far too limited. While it does allow us to beat Toxapex and Mollux easily, much like Salazzle, Corrosion on a Fire type is just silly. Half the time you will be seeking burns (or DBreath paralysis), and while my opinion on this this would be entirely different if Heatran were currently part of the metagame, it isn't and therefore it isn't proper to bring it up. We don't even get the perfect accuracy on Toxic because 27 isn't Poison type. Not the right ability for this CAP.

Grassy Surge: One critical flaw of Grassy Surge is that it also provides immense support for your opponent. 5 turns of healing for grounded opponents really messes with your calculations, especially since huge portions of our pressure and C+C list are grounded. While 27 itself has no issues taking a boosted Grass attack, that might not be true for the rest of your team. You have to avoid teammates that would be negatively impacted by Grassy Surge, which would include any number of bulky waters you might want to keep in the back, and any offensive partners that can't afford grounded opponents getting double leftovers recovery. Grassy Surge limits the number of offensive cores you could use with 27.

Natural Cure: CAP is a metagame with a great deal better options on status absorption, given how often it was brought up in many past discussions. Krilowatt, Colossoil, Naviathan, Pajantom, and Snaelstrom all provide this, Kefluffle has Natural Cure itself, Mollux absorbs everything that isn't paralysis, and Fidgit absorbs most practical instances of Poison and Paralysis without fearing burn-inducing Fire attacks [Scald tho...]. I don't think Status Absorption is a useful consideration for 27. [Historical Note: In BW LumHarvest Malaconda was also a Status Absorption Pokemon.]

Levitate: After some consideration, it is really difficult to discount the usefulness of Levitate. Immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes without needing Heavy-Duty Boots are an immense boon, and give CAP the same kind of general switch-in ability as something like Mandibuzz. While I am usually critical of such immunity abilities, in this instance (and unlike Equilibra where I preferred Bulletproof primarily), we have a typing that has a pretty specific resistance profile and a lot of neutralities.

One thing that does concern me about Levitate is it has an incredible effect on our C+C list, nullifying all of the Ground-types there. Hippowdown is forced to Whirlwind and rely on Rocks damage (and HDB is still good for ignoring that). Opponents relying on Ground coverage are neutralized. That said, a Rock weakness is still very exploitable, and 27 doesn't actually resist Water so those matchups are less effected.

Still, I think it is very powerful, but it expands options rather than heavily biases 27 to one way of play or another.

Multiscale: I think Support Dragonite is a really excellent parallel now that Heavy-Duty Boots exists. While Leftovers is generally preferable given 27's larger hazard vulnerability, Multiscale is excellent at providing that initial buffer to get a support move off. Fire STAB is more aggressive than Flying and the resistance/neutrality profile is much better with no 4x weaknesses, and not having an entire type resistant to both (Steel in Dragonite's case).

Neutralizing Gas: I know I made the initial post on this, but Orig Stall Guy expanded on it. Neutralizing Gas is basically Mold Breaker on steroids. If we look at the viability rankings, we can see it has a massive impact:

S Rank:

S Rank
Clefable -Takes Hazards on Switchin, vulnerable to Toxic weardown, Unaware set mostly unaffected.
Corviknight - Scared away, not losing PP to Pressure just a bonus.

A Rank:

A+ Rank
Aegislash - Not affected, Stance Change can't be neutralized.
Dragapult - Only marginal benefits. Fire Lash will lower Def, or Infiltrator won't bypass Sub.
Equilibra - Takes Spikes damage.
Kyurem - Marginal benefit.
Terrakion - Irrelevant other than not giving it an Attack Boost if we throw Knock Off out.
Toxapex - Needs to use Recover to heal, can't switch camp for Regenerator recovery. This helps other breakers get through it even though it still walls 27.

A Rank
Hydreigon - Takes Spikes Damage.
Mandibuzz - Takes Sandstorm damage I guess, and you can hit it with Powder-based Statuses.
Mollux - Irrelevant, Mollux doesn't even have listed Rain partners.
Rotom-Heat - Takes Spikes Damage.
Seismitoad - Irrelevant before Movepool considerations.
Syclant - Takes HUGE Rocks Damage.
Tomohawk - Disables Prankster or Intimidate, greatly limiting walling potential.
Zeraora - Irrelevant.

A- Rank
Arghonaut - Irellevant.
Colossoil - Crippled by Burn Orb instead of boosted, though EQ will still be nasty.
Conkeldurr - Crippled by Burn Orb instead of boosted.
Excadrill - Depends on Stats, but nullifies Sand Rush.
Ferrothorn - Nullifies Iron Barbs.
Jumbao - Potential drawback in nullifying / delaying Drought. Trace activates on follow-up switch.

B Rank:

B+ Rank
Aurumoth - Nullifies Weak Armor and No Guard.
Bisharp - Nullifies Defiant boosts.
Hippowdon - Suspends Sandstorm if not already out, which is a potential drawback due to the delay.
Jirachi - 50% Less Hax.
Kommo-o - Likely Irrelevant.
Mamoswine - Nullifies Thick Fat so Fire moves hit at SE Strength.
Necturna -Irrelevant. Runs Away anyway.
Stratagem - Takes Spikes Damage.

B Rank
Ditto -Suppresses Imposter, but doesn't nullify an existing transformation. Imposter will fire after 27 leaves so switch appropriately.
Dracovish - Cuts Power dramatically, especially if 27 is faster. Band Rend will still hit ridiculously hard on switchin though.
Gastrodon - Irrelevant before movepool considerations.
Gengar - Irrelevant
Keldeo - Irrelevant
Kerfluffle - Statusing Kerfluffle will stick if CAP is active when it switches.
Naviathan - Crippled by Burn Orb instead of boosted.
Pajantom - Irrelevant, Comatose ignores Neutralizing Gas.
Reuniclus - Takes Hazards on Switchin, vulnerable to Toxic weardown.
Tyranitar - Suspends Sandstorm if not already out, which is a potential drawback due to the delay.

It should be plain to see, especially if 27 has a partner with Spikes that Neutralizing Gas is a phenomenal offensive support ability that compromises the effectiveness of a large number of S-B Rank Pokemon, punishing them if they come in or are in while 27 is on the field (this matters in double switch prediction scenarios especially).

While it does have some interactions with fat Pokemon like Toxapex, Pex still has the option to hard Recover, and can still remove our item with Knock Off and cripple us with Toxic. Not having Regenerator activate for it though makes it much easier for breakers in an offensive core to finish it off, even though 27 can't finish it by itself. Bottom Line: Neutralizing Gas is a very relevant offensive support ability that should not be overlooked given the current makeup of the metagame.

Serene Grace: One more once-over on Serene Grace. Serene Grace answers question 4):
4) What is more important for our CAP to fulfill its role as an offensive support: an ability which accentuates its defensive utility and ability to support its team, or its synergy with certain items?

Serene Grace answers that definitively with accentuating defensive utility. While Serene Grace inherently makes movepool assumptions, those assumptions can be generalized as 60-100% chances of powerful negative status while using damaging attacks, a significant upgrade to nearly all Fire-type attacks, and in general striking a balance in favor of weaker attacks with higher effect chances.

 

[Jho]

Toxapex is in our list of Checks - pardon me if this is a dumb question - but why specifically are you looking at abilities that assist with hurting something there?

I'll answer this since its something a lot of people have been asking me over in the discord as well - Our C&C list is not an end all be all "we must have these things beat us, we must beat these things" list and for the most part, it is just an observation of what our typing allows us to beat, as well as what beats us. I think it is beneficial to expect that some of our threat list will be affected by the stages following it - as I said in a post over in Threats discussion the list largely depends on our ability, stats, and movepool so to me it makes sense for it to be fluid as we progress through those stages. Think of it more as a guideline than something which is set in stone that we must adhere to - changing some of the threatlist matchups here should not be a huge factor in which ability we end up going with.

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

Personally, I would love to see more discussion on Neutralizing Gas and Corrosion, just because I feel as if they're interesting abilities that merit a bit more thought and chance to shine in the thread.

Neutralizing Gas: I know I made the initial post on this, but Orig Stall Guy expanded on it. Neutralizing Gas is basically Mold Breaker on steroids. If we look at the viability rankings, we can see it has a massive impact:

Bottom Line: Neutralizing Gas is a very relevant offensive support ability that should not be overlooked given the current makeup of the metagame.

Im super happy my pitch for Neutralizing Gas has not fallen on deaf ears. The discussion so far has been good. Ive already pitched the ability and Deck Knight has done a great job flushing out this abilities viability. But this ability is kind of like Trace in that its strong but quite matchup dependent. Do we want that ability as a primary? I personally find this ability really cool and want to explore it, but feel that's its better suited as the secondary ability than primary.

 

[Pipotchi]

Okay, time to start contesting some points:

Magic Guard- ive been persuaded by snake here, this ability will flatten our process from here on out and isnt an avenue im interested in exploring. I also see a situation where fire/dragon neutral coverage ruins our offensive switchins and magic guard's matchup against defensive pokemon ruins our defensive switchins. It would definitely limit our movepool and stat stages quite a lot and we honestly already have explored magic guard enough in the past. We can get similar benefits from this ability from other options too, such as Regenerator.

Neutralizing Gas- this ability is not as impressive as it seems, the only major thing it can do is help break things like Clefable, Tomohawk and Reuniclus, which isnt what I expect this mon to be doing anyway. The majority of examples listed by Deck Knight (such as equilibra, rotom-h, colossoil, conkeldurr, ferrothorn, jumbao, hippowdon, tyranitar and toxapex) dont have their matchup changed against this pokemon and are either not switching in anyway, not allowing themselves to get hit anyway, outright beating this pokemon anyway or getting off their weather setting abilities off while this pokemon is not on the field, as you literally have to outspeed in a double switch to prevent this from happening. Since Toxapex beats us regardless, we wont be stopping its Regenerator because it will never be switching out. You'll have to pull a janky double switch on Toxapex every time you predict it switching out, and any time you get it wrong and it stays in to Recover, Toxic, Tspike or Knock Off youre losing a ton. So yea, it will let us push our way forcefully through a couple walls, but to me wallbreaking is not a supportive role I expect from exploring this concept. Its a fantastic and exciting ability, but lets save it for a CAP where it actually makes sense.

Multiscale- multiscale lets us have a panic defense tool as its main sell,and secondly makes this mon harder to revenge kill. firstly, this messes with our list of checks by making mons like Terrakion not able to rk due to fear of wisp, Hydreigon and Dragapult not able to draco meteor us lest they trade dragon coverage and probably get ohkod. Stratagem has paper defenses that make it also unwilling to trade attacks. We are a supportive mon that will probably go the route of crippling, so sometimes these mons are going to get hit by our status/attacks on the switch no matter what route we go. but for this mon to be able to stand there in a 1v1 and win, thats not what being checked is about. Either that, or in order to get koed through multiscale by our checks we are going to be the frailest, weakest mon that cant switch in on anything else we are supposed to without its multiscale up (because this typing needs some bulk- it has a lot of neutral matchups or situations where it gets hit neutrally by the mons we are supposed to switch in on).
The second negative to this ability is that the interactive move for this ability (outside of paralysis) is recovery. I'm personally in the camp that this concept should not be trying to be a wall, which recovery and multiscale absolutely encourage, and the playstyle of a wall (even without multiscale) is that you need to stay high hp to guarantee you beat the pokemon you are designated to beat throughout the match- I see us clicking recover when we are switched in more than getting to click the offensive moves we want. It is possible that we dont get recovery at all- in which case this ability to me doesnt have much exploration at all, Im not interested in slapping a paralysis move on this so it can be a panic button and saying thats as far as our ability interaction goes either.
You could also add that this ability is less interesting than other options because it fully mandates HDB.

Sticky Hold- im actually okay with this ability, I just think its not particularly big or interesting to explore for a primary ability. There's a lot more interesting options early on that are pro-concept and would lead to more exciting movepool and stat interactions, and sticky hold doesnt have any of that. Its just a mildly good pro-concept ability.

 

[Atha]

Neutralizing Gas : I had wrote a huge text but Pipotchi said the exact thing I wanted to say, ruining hours of work. f u pip.

Sticky Hold : The only arguments against this ability aren't valid. "It looks more like a secondary ability" doesn't make sense. Neither does "it forces us to run Heavy-Dut Boots". Not the most interesting, but being interesting isn't at all a necessity for every stage of the process. For those (including me) thinking it's boring, remember that getting Knock off and Hazards problems out of the way will allow more freedom on the next stages, ie more interesting movepool and stats.

Multiscale : This ability opens up two scenarii (yes, plurial scenario makes scenarii, in french at least). Either CAP27 has recovery, either it doesn't. If it doesn't, then Multiscale provides only 1 more switch than not having this ability would allow, which isn't what we're trying to achieve (a support Pokemon, even offensive, wants multiple switchin opportunities). Also CAP27 will probably want to switch in on some weak attacks like Toxapex Scalds, Clefable Moonblasts, etc., making Multiscale litterally useless. If it has recovery then it pmuch becomes a wall, but with great offensive capabilities and good speed ; and I don't see how we can make this work.

Magic Guard :

Very long speech

No. I mean it's pro-concept, but no more mguard discussion

Grassy Surge : I like this one a lot. I'm sorry Deck knight, but your argument saying that it also helps the opponent, and that it might boost the opponent's grass-type attacks isn't valid. If you use a Grassy surge user you just build around this and avoid those problems. If your ability helps your opponent more than it helps you, your team is just bad.

Regenerator : I prefer this one over Magic Guard, even though both are pro-concept. Taking the Tornadus-T-ish route looks appealing. Once again the only argument against it is that we'll have to make sacrifices in the next stages, but why sacrificing the ability rather than the rest ?

Serene Grace : Undoubtedly a pro-concept ability. The only problem I have with this one is that it pretty much forces us to go specially offensive, meaning Clef will wish on our face every day of the week. Physical looks more appealing ngl.

Levitate and Natural Cure : Well they work lol. Although PLEASE STOP MENTIONING EXCADRILL WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT LEVITATE.

 

[Deck Knight]

Grassy Surge : I like this one a lot. I'm sorry Deck knight, but your argument saying that it also helps the opponent, and that it might boost the opponent's grass-type attacks isn't valid. If you use a Grassy surge user you just build around this and avoid those problems. If your ability helps your opponent more than it helps you, your team is just bad.

Unfortunately, your opponent's team makeup is not an element under your control in teambuilding. Your opponent's team is mostly grounded? Grassy Surge just gave them 5 turns of 6% healing. Your opponent's team has a Ferrothorn, Necturna, or Caribolt? They just got a boost to Power Whip should Grassy Terrain not have run out in the course of 5 turns of play and counterplay. The vast majority of the viability rankings is grounded. Grassy Terrain is going to interfere with KO ranges on both sides of the match even assuming the perfect hypothetical Grassy Terrain abusing squad on your side.

Grassy Terrain isn't Rain. It's a boost to one of the most resisted types in the game, nevermind the metagame (7 types!) and even if 27 gets Grass Coverage (which interferes significantly with C+C), it becomes a psuedo-Life Orb boost but not super-boosted. Grass has picked up some decent offensive support moves, especially in the most recent generations, but we don't need Grassy Surge to consider them as options. Grassy Terrain does turn specifically Earthquake into a neutrality, but not Earth Power. Of all the effects that can backfire, Grassy Terrain is probably the most likely of them, and given this concept and the chosen typing do not allow a Tapu Bulu-esque use of the ability, I think it best to avoid this high-risk / low reward ability.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I'll answer this since its something a lot of people have been asking me over in the discord as well - Our C&C list is not an end all be all "we must have these things beat us, we must beat these things" list and for the most part, it is just an observation of what our typing allows us to beat, as well as what beats us.

I don't have any abilities I favor and I don't have competitive input on what abilities would be best -- but I do want to lean into the point that Jho made about the C&C list and how the whole Threats Discussion fits within any given CAP project. The Threats Discussion is NOT a community voting step where anything concrete is decided for a given CAP. It is a time for the project to talk about the implications of our typing and also to talk about some general competitive issues that might impact later steps where we do discuss and vote.

Back before we had a dedicated Threats Discussion (the first one was CAP 13 iirc), we would end up discussing threats during each individual step like Stats, Ability, etc. and the discussion would wander all over the map. Different people would argue for different options, based on wildly different assumptions of what we wanted to beat and what we wanted to beat us. It was very messy and the TL was constantly trying to herd cats to keep expectations in line. By adding a dedicated Threats Discussion, we didn't add any concrete decision-making to the CAP process, we just provided a forum for the community to build MORE of a general consensus before discussing other competitive aspects. It was to help focus later discussions, not to put up guardrails for any later step.

I'm not saying you should ignore the C&C lists from the Threats Discussion, but just use it as a guideline. If an ability is generally interesting for a given CAP, but it happens to go against one or two mons identified in the C&C list -- don't throw out the ability based on that alone. Look at the big picture of the CAP and its concept and see if it makes sense.

Like I said, I don't have a dog in this hunt, so I really don't have any competitive input on Corrosion or beating Toxapex. But strictly from a CAP community process standpoint -- If the community really thinks it is super-important that Toxapex beats CAP 27, then by all means, scratch Corrosion off the list. But if Pex just so happens to be good potential counterplay to CAP27 that we identified in the Threats discussion, and there are interesting competitive reasons for Corrosion, then you should continue to consider it, whatever that means.

 

[Karoshi]

I am only going to mention the abilities mentioned since GMars's last post. Most of these abilities are more defensive in nature and bring some utility to CAP27 wether it be allowing it to come in safer, supporting its team or something else. All (save one imo) are good abilities and all would be fine choices on CAP27 to help it achieve its goal.

Neutralizing Gas : A strong ability. I think it would be funny to set hazards on incoming magic bouncers or flare blitz on flash fire. I don't think it is super relevant in terms of effecting our checks/counters super hard. The main thing it does is prevent wounded 'pex from fleeing to heal and makes our checks/counters that are immune to hazards take damage when they come in. Sounds like a fun ability to have.

Sticky Hold : Eghhh... I feel like this ability has limited usage at best. I would put it just above limber or inner focus if we were ranking ability usefulness. Definitely does help out by making sure we always have HDB or any other item. That said always taking boosted Knock Offs still sucks. Not many Pokemon even run item minipulation moves outside of some knock off users and ends up being a non-ability against everyone else. The primary ability is also suppose to be our most useful ability and I would have a hard time justifying using this over any other ability mentioned thus far. I think this would be better as the secondary ability. I am not a fan and think we can do better.

Multiscale : Undoubtedly strong. Would help with preforming our duties as a utility by guaranteeing we live a hit before doing so. Would make our 'weakness' to hazards more pronounced though and would make recoil moves far more of a detriment. We would also have to make sure not to give it set up move otherwise run the risk of making it too good at that role. Also might insensitive pure offensive sets.

Regenerator : Several other 'Mon we mentioned in a previous step we wanted to emulate had Regenerator. It removes our 'weakness' to entry hazards and doesn't 'force' us to use HDB. Other people have more of an opinion than I do but is undoubtedly a good ability.

Corrosion: Lets us use Toxic on Steel or Poison threats that we predict coming in. Useful but most Steels will switch out instead of in and outside of 'Pex there aren't too many relevent Poison types. In fact I believe only Gengar is on the viability list besides 'Pex who is a fellow poison type. Limited utility that lets us wear down some defensive threats.

Levitate: Like I stated in my previous post an ability that grants immunity to a typing would definitely help CAP27 out by providing free switch ins. Levitate is by far the strongest option as it removes a weakness and makes us immune to all but one entry hazards. I feel it is just boring and might mess with our check/counter list. Would prefer another immunity ability over this one to be honest but this would give CAP27 the best results.

Natural Cure: I suggested an ability to ignore poison in my first post on the subject. This stops other statuses as well. Given it is already immune to burns and this would turn into a status absorber for the team. Arguable that alone adds utility to the 'Mon and in terms of team building. Removing Para or Sleep on switch out would honestly be my biggest concerns.

Grassy Surge: I already advocated this one but do understand where Deck Knight's concerns are on G. Surge. Despite all that I still think that it could work. Having any grass type on our team makes sure we gain something from it while there is a fairly good chance the opponent does not even run any 'mon with grass coverage. Providing ourselves healing gives us more survivability especially if we get Subs or Protect to play around it and reducing damage from EQ helps mitigate the damage only on the physical side. The EQ reduction also helps our team by letting ground weak Pokemon safer switch ins as well as healing for doing so. It is more of a Utility that helps our team just on the cost of having to come in. Being utility means supporting our team so even it it doesn't directly help CAP27 itself it can still help it achieve its primary goal. 30% boost to grass moves (was wrong earlier as I thought it still boasted to 50%) is nothing to scoff at and every grass mon would enjoy having it. I still have this as my top ability choice.

EDIT: Just because it does not allow for a Tapu Bulu-esque use of the ability doesn't mean the ability can't be used an another, more utilitarian way.

Serene Grace: Serene Grace is probably the most relevent in terms of being on point to our goal but again most moves with secondary effects are either stat drops or cause status effects. How much either help support our team is questionable. I wouldn't even begin to guess what moves we would give it to abuse having it though.

 

[MrPanda]

4) What is more important for our CAP to fulfill its role as an offensive support: an ability which accentuates its defensive utility and ability to support its team, or its synergy with certain items?

This is an extremely relevant question at this point in the discussion. For some time, the discussion has turned around the impact that Knock Off has on CAP27 and how abilities could mitigate or amplify that impact. In fact, I believe that the main focus here is or should be the functionality and utility benefits that the abilities provide for 27. However, this does not mean that we should put aside the synergy that these abilities can play in conjunction with some specific items. While items can definitely facilitate the role that a Pokémon wants to play, they are not decisive for this and should not limit our possibilities or dictate how we should proceed or not. In short, I think the discussion has developed very well so far and everything said here is much valid for what we intend to achieve with CAP27, but we should try to move away from the topic of the items at least for now and to focus more on benefits that skills provide us by theirselves.

Now let's talk about what really matters: abilities.

Corrosion: I don't see what is the point here. Yeah, use Toxic without worrying about Steel- and Poison-types is awesome. But it doesn't add anything beyond that. No durability, no defensive utility. Also, I ain't so sure that CAP27 will be such this great Toxic user. There's so many utility options (and abilities) worthier to use.

Neutralizing Gas: On a first moment I was quite incredulous about that one. But after to read some posts on favor of it, I changed my mind. It's no doubts a very interesting ability to go, but it's very situational and unstable. It can help CAP27 to wear down a opposing pokemon and support its teammates or just don't do anything. I think it would be a fun way to go, but I don't think it's the ideal for 27, at least not as the first ability.

Grassy Surge: I don't like this one. Grassy Terrain is probably the worst of the four terrains (unless you are Tapu Bulu or have a great Grass coverage... actually, thinking now, Misty Surge would be a more interesting option, despite the "reduced Dragon damage" thing). Less Earthquake damage (not Ground damage, so Earth Power and High Horsepower are still there) and pseudo-leftovers (on both sides of the field) aren't that impressive so I think the sell point here is the boosted Grass damage. Thinking on that, while Grass coverage wouldn't be something incredible for CAP27 I doubt that it will get it anyway, Grass-type by itself isn't a big offensive type currently with all those Dragon- and Steel-types and Mollux around. Indeed, Grass is over devalued now and there are just two Grass-types in the "top tier" of CAP, Ferro and Bao. Shortly, Grassy Surge is a great ability, but not for 27.

Multiscale: Basically a one-shot Filter. Jokes apart, that is an interesting ofensive/defensive option, as demonstrated by Lunala (Shadow Shield and Multiscale are essentially the same thing but with diferent names) and Lugia respectively. Although it puts a weird pressure on CAP27 to keep itself safe and healthy, as once Multiscale is down 27 take standard damage. Moreover we need to be careful to it doesn't turn itself into a bulky setupper or an unbeatable wall. Despite that, Multiscale can be an useful defensive ability enabling CAP27 to have an extra turn to do whatever it wants.

Levitate: I'm definitely against Levitate. While Ground immunity would be amazing for CAP27's defensive utility, it impacts seriously the Ground move users from C&C list (personally I think we should follow the C&C list as a guide and avoid as much as possible to change the matchups into it), more notably Hippowdon. Without Earthquake to deal damage to CAP27, Hippo relies on Toxic or Whirlwind + hazards to make some residual damage and worn down it, which would do of Hippo an utility fodder for CAP27.

Natural Cure: That's my second on command now. It works in a way very close to Regen but deal with status condition instead of sheer damage. With CAP27 being already immune to burn, it gains a poison, sleep, freeze and paralysis semi-immunity, enabling it to work as a status sponge. Actually, a great defensive utility ability.

Serene Grace: It's almost the same Corrosion situation. It gives a greater chance of activating second effects but doesn't do much more than this. For while, it's hard to say much about it because STABly talking just Lava Plume and Dragon Breath are benefited. Other secondary effect moves either have 100% effects or have too low chances that aren't worth to consider, like Flamethrower and Dragon Rush. Without a bigger deepening into the movepool is hard to defend or criticize it. For now, I'm not much in favor of it.

 

[snake]

4) What is more important for our CAP to fulfill its role as an offensive support: an ability which accentuates its defensive utility and ability to support its team, or its synergy with certain items?

I'm going to be a cop out and say that it's both.

Right now, I feel confident that the best ability for this CAP to have is Regenerator.

First, its the best way we can ensure that CAP27 can utilize its offensive coverage and utility moves to the fullest without CAP27 wasting time to heal itself. It means that CAP27 doesn't have to waste not only momentum on healing itself (momentum is very important for an offensive support Pokemon) but also a moveslot on the recovery move (reducing the chance of a 3 attacks + recovery set). Of course, the some or all of the 3 attacks could be offensive utility moves, but I enjoy the advantage of not having a recovery move in our moveset while still having access to recovery in Regenerator.

Second, it mitigates, but doesn't fully alleviate, our weakness to Knock Off by being able to mitigate Stealth Rock damage, CAP27 won't be instantly forced to recover or suffer being worn down being sent into Stealth Rock. This, I think, is a much better solution to the Knock Off weakness than Sticky Hold (see hide tag at bottom).

Third, it patches up our weakness to Toxic. Because Toxic chip is small for the first couple turns, CAP27 can alleviate this weakness just by not staying in and using Regenerator to heal that chip. This is most relevant for CAP27's match-up against Rotom-H.

Fourth, it allows CAP27 to be much more flexible in what item it can pick, despite being a Stealth Rock-weak Fire-type. I think preserving item diversity is a really great way to preserve set diversity. Yes, movepool is definitely a place to make sets have variety, but item variety is, to me, also important. Heavy-Duty Boots is almost always run on any Fire-type (that's not on a Hyper Offense Sun team) due to Stealth Rock weakness. Regenerator offsets this projected requirement for CAP27 by allowing it the option not to run Heavy-Duty Boots. Will HDB probably still be the best? Probably? But could CAP27 run Life Orb or Charcoal at the cost of durability (taking all damage from hazards, including 25% to Stealth Rock)? It's feasible with Regenerator, moreso than with any ability other than Magic Guard. I really like developing this tradeoff between the offensive side and the supportive side of CAP27, and Regenerator is the ability that allows this to happen. One could say that giving CAP27 potential access to Life Orb or other boosting items is a bad idea, but proper restrictions down the line can prevent CAP27 from becoming an all-out attacker.

I'll link to my previous post on Magic Guard and why I personally don't like that ability. I feel like it comes with too many issues on its own and cannot view that as an equivalent option to Regenerator with regards to item diversity myself. But, to reiterate, I think Magic Guard forces stats to focus a lot more heavily on defenses rather than offenses. I'm afraid of running into a situation where we're Krilowatt, where the damage output is without Life Orb, which will ruin the offensive side of offensive support. I'm also not liking how it ruins Toxapex's and Hippowdon's Toxic.

I'd like to point out how it's possible to overwhelm a Pokemon with Regenerator too. Unlike with Magic Guard, because even though Stealth Rock and Toxic damage are mitigated by Regenerator, they aren't completely cancelled out. Add on how CAP27 will have to take chip damage from other attacks, and Regenerator can only do so much. I think this is important because I think it's really interesting how Regenerator can mitigate a wide variety of damage types, but not necessarily all at the same time. It'd be a huge boon in CAP27's arsenal, but it's not a complete patch up to all of CAP27's apparent issues based solely on typing.

While Regenerator is closely associated with defensive stalwarts like Toxapex and Slowbro, I'd like to think of all the Regenerator users that appeared on offensive teams in the past like Tornadus-T, Mienshao in lower tiers, and Assault Vest Tangrowth. All three of these didn't have access to good recovery moves but they kept up momentum using decently strong STAB attacks, key utility moves, and staying healthy with Regenerator. CAP27 can follow suit, and as we can see from the difference between these three Pokemon, the build types aren't uniformly fast.

Overall, I think Regenerator's benefits make it the best ability for CAP27.

• Patches up CAP27's longevity problem without giving up momentum or a moveslot
  • Keeping up momentum is important for an offensive support Pokemon
  • If CAP27 has to dedicate a moveslot to recovery, it could end up being a 3 attacks + recovery Pokemon, which could end up just being offensive and not support (not guaranteed of course, but it increases the chance).
• Mitigates the Knock Off weakness from Ferrothorn and Zeraora by offsetting Stealth Rock damage
• Mitigates Toxic weakness by healing the first few turns of Toxic chip rather easily
• Increases the diversity of what items CAP27 can hold - Heavy-Duty Boots, Life Orb, and other offensive items are the prime examples
  • Increasing the diversity of items CAP27 can run increases the diversity of sets it can run, which I think is a plus
  • It does in such a way that preserves CAP27's focus on offensive focus in stats rather than defensive, unlike Magic Guard
  • Proper precautions can be taken to ensure CAP27 doesn't become an all-out attacker (these will have to be accounted for regardless of Regenerator)
• Focuses on a wide variety mitigating damage, but it can't patch up all of CAP27's weakness to hazards, Toxic, and chip damage at once, so careful play is encouraged
• Closely associated with three offensive support Pokemon in past generations with non-uniform stat and movepool builds

Sticky Hold: Why it's bad

Sticky Hold protects CAP27's Heavy-Duty Boots, which is great. But what uses Knock Off in the metagame? CAP27's switch-ins are Ferrothorn and Zeraora. It's good that we're better switch-ins to them. But...that's about it. Ferrothorn legitimately becomes a perfect switch-in, but Zeraora will more than likely be faster than CAP27 (not a guarantee of course, but 143 Speed is pretty high). CAP27 won't necessarily like switching into other passive Knock Off users like Clefable, Arghonaut, Mandibuzz, and Toxapex given their access to status - unless they're weakened I don't see CAP27 realistically staying in. I also really doubt we'll have the titanic bulk required to tank multiple Knock Off from the Guts wallbreakers that run it: Conkeldurr, Colossoil, and Obstagoon, especially because Knock Off will always be at full power and we take neutral damage. Bisharp doesn't have Guts, but Knock Off + Sucker Punch will still leave a mark. Basically, I think Sticky Hold tries to address a legitimate concern that CAP27 faces, but I don't think we have the typing to act as an effective Knock Off absorber. I think Regenerator covers what Sticky Hold is trying to address but actually accomplishes what it needs to.

 

[Amamama]

Sticky Hold protects CAP27's Heavy-Duty Boots, which is great. But what uses Knock Off in the metagame? CAP27's switch-ins are Ferrothorn and Zeraora. It's good that we're better switch-ins to them. But...that's about it. Ferrothorn legitimately becomes a perfect switch-in, but Zeraora will more than likely be faster than CAP27 (not a guarantee of course, but 143 Speed is pretty high). CAP27 won't necessarily like switching into other passive Knock Off users like Clefable, Arghonaut, Mandibuzz, and Toxapex given their access to status - unless they're weakened I don't see CAP27 realistically staying in. I also really doubt we'll have the titanic bulk required to tank multiple Knock Off from the Guts wallbreakers that run it: Conkeldurr, Colossoil, and Obstagoon, especially because Knock Off will always be at full power and we take neutral damage. Bisharp doesn't have Guts, but Knock Off + Sucker Punch will still leave a mark. Basically, I think Sticky Hold tries to address a legitimate concern that CAP27 faces, but I don't think we have the typing to act as an effective Knock Off absorber. I think Regenerator covers what Sticky Hold is trying to address but actually accomplishes what it needs to.

I don’t know why you hid this remark, because I think this is the most valid analysis of Sticky hold to this point.

Natural Cure: That's my second on command now. It works in a way very close to Regen but deal with status condition instead of sheer damage. With CAP27 being already immune to burn, it gains a poison, sleep, freeze and paralysis semi-immunity, enabling it to work as a status sponge. Actually, a great defensive utility ability.

I think the usefulness of Natural cure is overplayed here.
Freeze and sleep are two statuses that rarely appear and burn doesn’t matter to us. A 10% chance of an Icebeam freezing is is not enough for us to prepare an answer for that.
So it only helps with poison and paralysis in most realistic cases.

While that is good, there is an ability, that works better in this regard.
Magic Bounce not only helps 27 absorb status, it also bounces it back at the user, which helps your team Threefold.
Your opponent will be using status and hazards more carefully as long as 27 is in the back, you can guard your team by deflecting status and you can occasionally hurt the opponent back with bounced hazards, toxic, paralysis and burn.
It still leaves open the possibility of inflicting status on 27 through secondary effects.

 

[Isabelle the Shih Tzu]

Given the nature of 27, a few abilities should be listed regarding its ability to fulfill a supporting role on a team.

"Self-supporting" abilities

Regenerator: not my favourite by a long shot. While it does provide the ability to mitigate passive damage from hazards and status conditions as well as chip Life Orb damage, Regenerator does not directly provide 27's teammates support by itself, which is the direction I believe would best be taken at this stage of the process. More of a personal preference if anything.

Sticky Hold: great "underground" ability in the sense that we've not yet seen a decent abuser of Sticky Hold besides maybe Gen 7 NU Muk. The ability to switch repeatedly into Knock Off and Trick without worrying about losing a possible Heavy-Duty Boots is incredible. But, again, it doesn't directly support 27's teammates.

Immunity abilities: I strongly disagree with the use of abilities such as Levitate, Lightningrod or Flash Fire as each of them messes up with 27's concept in a way. Levitate may mess up with the threatlist, Flash Fire and Lightningrod might incentivise all-out offensive playstyles thanks to their boosts, etc.

Team support

Magic Guard: I am heavily opposed to this ability as it incentivises too much the use of offensive playstyles as we've seen with Krillowatt, pre-nerf Mega Crucibelle and early SwSh Clefable.

Strange Steam: the most interesting option, it can completely alter 27's playstyle (in a good way!). With this ability, it might be able to heavily threaten Clefable, Snaelstrom with Toxic by the use of Protect after stacking some turns, to negate Toxapex's Regenerator and Arghonaut's Unaware, Colossoil, Obstagoon and Naviathan's Guts (maybe allowing to even live a hit from the former), Tomohawk's Prankster (possibly Taunting it), to negate Excadrill's Sand Rush. In my opinion, this should be the ability of choice.

Cotton Down: great ability, specially if we have access to some kind of momentum grabber like Teleport. However, I am not really feeling it. Again, personal preference.

Misty Surge: now, onto my submission. Misty Surge completely negates status chip damage not only from 27, but from all grounded teammates. It also provides support to pokemon like Hawlucha (Unburden) and defensive walls like Arghonaut and Jumbao (status conditions). Overall, very solid ability.

These are my thoughts on some abilities discussed so far.

 

[War Incarnate]

Strange Steam: the most interesting option, it can completely alter 27's playstyle (in a good way!). With this ability, it might be able to heavily threaten Clefable, Snaelstrom with Toxic by the use of Protect after stacking some turns, to negate Toxapex's Regenerator and Arghonaut's Unaware, Colossoil, Obstagoon and Naviathan's Guts (maybe allowing to even live a hit from the former), Tomohawk's Prankster (possibly Taunting it), to negate Excadrill's Sand Rush. In my opinion, this should be the ability of choice.

Dude, Strange Steam is not an ability, I think you mean Neutralizing Gas here.

To not make this one a one-liner I don't really like the idea of immunity abilities (Flash Fire and Lightning Rod in particular) that boost our stats, as they're more suited towards a more offensive CAP, which this one is not supposed to be. I also don't like the idea of Regenerator, as it doesn't really provide support to the team, despite being actually quite decent in itself. Sticky Hold could be interesting, as it provides indirect support in the form of a Knock Off abuser. Not really something that's needed or something that it'd excel at, but still decent.

 

[Wulfanator]

Misty Surge: now, onto my submission. Misty Surge completely negates status chip damage not only from 27, but from all grounded teammates. It also provides support to pokemon like Hawlucha (Unburden) and defensive walls like Arghonaut and Jumbao (status conditions). Overall, very solid ability.

Yes. Let's take our very nice Fire/Dragon STAB and reduce one of its power by 50%. How very offensive of us.

But in all seriousness, providing 27 with definitive cleric options in later stages seems more beneficial than trying to offer these pseudo-cleric abilities if this is the route we want to work the concept.

 

[tiernothebeast]

I do believe Regenerator is quite the neat choice, as it mitigates status damage and Stealth Rocks. It helps CAP 27 last longer and not be as worn down from hazards and initial Toxic damage. However, this does nothing to help it come in, although CAP 27 will generally only switch-in to Pokemon who can't harm it besides Toxic, Trick and Knock Off. Even with this, I still like Regenerator as a choice for our ability.

Something to help us come in on Pokemon who can hurt us is Multiscale, which, as said in this thread, allows CAP 27 to come in on dangerous Pokemon without it being too unreasonable (e.g. a +2 Stone Edge off a Terrakion still kills). However, CAP 27 does not like hazards due to Multiscale breaking, and to keep at full HP CAP 27 could be inclined to spam recovery. This would force CAP 27's to just heal-spam. Even though Multiscale allows CAP 27 to usually get one utility or attack off, it would force CAP 27 to keep recovering due to keeping at full HP, so I don't think Multiscale is the best option here.

 

[GMars]

Thanks for the discussions everyone. I'm going to call a 48 Hour Warning on this thread. Additionally, for transparency and to focus discussion in the thread's last two days, I'll be giving an update on the abilities discussed here.

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To those that have been keeping up with the thread, it's clear that Regenerator, Sticky Hold, and Magic Bounce are clear contenders for slating. (Good posts for these here: Regenerator, Sticky Hold, Magic Bounce 1, Magic Bounce 2) There's been some good comments against Sticky Hold as a primary ability popping up recently, but as far as I can see it is still held relatively highly among the community, which the slate should represent.

Serene Grace is another ability that has received very strong support for its ability to compress utility with offense, reducing constraints on our moveslots.

As for abilities that are in consideration but need more discussion:

Immunity & Poison Heal

Poison Heal is a strictly better Immunity, but it incentivizes running a Toxic Orb. Given that many people answered "both" either directly or in roundabout ways to the question about accentuating defensive utility and item synergy, it's worthwhile to ask the question: is this a direction we want to take CAP 27? Is it possible to encourage a Poison Heal user to not run a Toxic Orb if it's not, or would Immunity be a better choice for giving our CAP a poison immunity when considering Concept Fulfillment? Additionally, there's a concern with this path that flows into the next ability:

Natural Cure

As Poison Heal discussion died down a bit, discussion on this ability picked up. It's on concept, but many users don't seem too hot on it primarily because they perceive an oversaturation of status absorbers in the CAP metagame. This is the problem that is shared with Immunity and Poison Heal. Given this, here's a direct question: Is status absorption a viable niche for CAP 27?

Multiscale

This ability synergizes well with our concept that has gotten a lot of support recently. Concerns against it have been worries about CAP 27 losing its role as a support Pokemon if it gets boosting or recovery, and losing its desire to switch in if it does not. Let's focus on the section that is less concerned with getting moves: Under what circumstances would having Multiscale encourage CAP 27 to switch in more often while still using team-focused options, and under what circumstances would Multiscale encourage CAP 27 to switch in less (perhaps becoming a less team-oriented Pokemon as a result)?

Poison Touch

Much like Serene Grace, this ability looks to add utility on top of our attacks in order to mix offense with support, reducing 4 slot moveset constraints. This ability started out very strong in the thread but completely dropped off of discussion in the past two pages, likely due to controversies surrounding some of the flashier abilities that crept up. If people have things to add to this ability or simply want to reiterate support, feel free. I've also seen some concerns about inflicting poison versus other status chances, primarily burn--as a question to promote discussion for this ability, how valid are these concerns?

Grassy Surge

This ability does look to support the team directly, but there have been questions raised about how impactful it would actually be for your team versus your opponent's. Additionally, one thing I didn't see mention of is how this ability could trend CAP 27 towards being more defensive rather than offensive. This is likely because of the memory of how offensive Tapu Bulu was in previous generations, but if this CAP ends up solely seeking to gain healing from the nerfed terrain, would it end up being more passive and utilizing "selfish" options like Protect which don't do that much to support the team and sap up recovery turns for itself? I feel this is one of the least likely abilities to be slated, especially given its mixed reception in the thread, but I did want to at least put this thought forward for more discussion and agree with the idea that this is a "high-risk / low-reward" ability.

One more thing I wanted to add--in summing up the thread, there have been many good discussion posts and points made against Magic Guard, and I feel comfortable in saying that I'm not currently considering it for slating. I also wanted to touch on Neutralizing Gas again since I brought it up in my last post. Thanks everyone for discussing what ended up being a contentious ability. There were points from some that its effects are very situational, but from looking at the metagame, these situations appear to be common and relevant. However, there were good posts describing how the roles this ability would allow CAP 27 to take would be more or less off target as far as our concept goes, so I am also not currently considering this ability for the slate unless new specific and well-reasoned arguments for it are presented.