CAP 27 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

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Quanyails

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Please pay very close attention to GMars's posts during this thread and remain on topic. DO NOT begin by posting massive lists of abilities!

Some general rules for this discussion:
  • Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
  • There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.
  • Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning. Posts that rely on flavor reasoning will be deleted.
The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

Air Lock
Arena Trap
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Color Change
Dark Aura
Dauntless Shield
Defeatist
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise
Fairy Aura
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Fur Coat
Gorilla Tactics
Gulp Missile
Huge Power
Hunger Switch
Ice Face
Ice Scales
Illusion
Imposter
Intrepid Sword
Libero
Mimicry
Moody
Multitype
Neuroforce
Parental Bond
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor
Protean
Pure Power
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield
Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Slow Start
Soul Heart
Stance Change
Teravolt
Truant
Turboblaze
Victory Star
Water Bubble
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Ball Fetch
Battery
Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Power Spot
Power of Alchemy
Propeller Tail
Receiver
Run Away
Stalwart
Symbiosis
Telepathy


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CAP 27 so far
 

GMars

It's ya boy GEEEEEEEEMARS
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Hey everyone, it's ya boy GEEEEEEEEMARS back again. We've set up a threats list, assessed our concept, and chosen a Fire / Dragon typing for CAP 27. Now, it's time to move into our first ability. With that, I've got three questions to get us started off:

1) Given CAP 27's typing and the first look we got at its future place in the metagame through threats discussion, should the primary ability focus on shoring up defensive utility or enhancing offensive presence?

2) What abilities would be the most useful for improving CAP 27's utility?

3) Are there abilities that can give or enable CAP 27 to use the type of utility options discussed in Concept Assessment?

Here's a reminder of one of the important conclusions of Concept Assessment to help in answering question 3:
What is a support Pokemon? - The primary function of a support Pokemon should be to provide its teammates with Utility options such as Knock Off, Hazard Removal, Status, Hazards, Recovery, Set-up opportunities, or momentum in the form of free switches. In order to ensure that CAP27 maintains its role as a support, the ability to provide a team with some form(es) of utility should be at the forefront.
These questions should get us started on the right track and help us hone in on what would be the best abilities to focus on for CAP 27. Let's get to it!
 

MrDollSteak

formerly pokehimon
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1) With our threats discussion concluded, one thing that I think is clear, is that there are a large range of pressure matchups and checks that primarily surround Cap 27s defenses, namely, that by way of its typing, Cap 27 can offensively threaten most mons, but is quite limited in its ability to switchin on offensive mons outside of Zeroara. With this in mind I believe a defensive ability would be best for primary.

2) The two defensive abilities that stand out to me here are Regenerator and Grassy Surge. Regenerator is a pretty straightforward strong ability that would provide Cap 27 with a lot of longevity over the match, and reduce its Stealth rock weakness to some extent. A large part of concept assessment was finding the ability to come in, and while this does not necessarily make it better at coming in on neutral hits, provided its not knocked out by can force pressures out and eventually heal off some of the damage. Grassy Surge is another interesting one that provides a source of passive healing for a few turns, thus supporting team mates, while also reducing Cap 27s vulnerability to Earthquake. The one apprehension I have is in the healing it grants opposing Pokemon. This can be nullified somewhat in the calcs at later stages but I think its worth noting.

3) As far as abilities that support utility options, something like Compound Eyes could improve the reliability of status options such as Toxic or Thunder Wave, though it of course improves other moves such as Fire Blast. Serene Grace is another interesting one that supports the additional effects of a range of Fire and Dragon moves such as Lava plume, Fire Blast, Dragon breath, etc. It provides a lot of move compression and could also open up some more utility options. Sticky Hold doesn't specifically support Cap 27s utility moves, but does give the team a reliable Knock Off sink that pressures some common Knockers like Ferrothorn and Bisharp, it would also solidify matchups against the Rotom forms by blocking trick. It could work well with other items that increase Cap 27s longevity such as Heavy Duty Boots or Leftovers too to allow it to continue supporting team mates.
 

quziel

The Scientist is Gigalith
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1) Given CAP 27's typing and the first look we got at its future place in the metagame through threats discussion, should the primary ability focus on shoring up defensive utility or enhancing offensive presence?
At this point, I think we could definitely go either way; improving defensive utility and giving us even more, or even more varied switchins is imo just as valid as an ability such as Serene Grace / Poison Touch that adds offensive presence (sorta) to our moves.

2) What abilities would be the most useful for improving CAP 27's utility?
So, improving our utility sorta goes back to question 1; We can either give the pokemon more chances to come in, and use the utility moves it has already, or we can use an ability that either increases, or wholly adds utility onto our moves.

More Chances to come in:

Regenerator: I think this is probably the golden standard of just giving us a metric ton of chances to come in, meaning that with HDB we can basically switch into any attack that does less than 33% for absolute free, but like, it does fit, and it would absolutely keep us healthy without us needing to spend any turns on healing up, or even enable the known goodstuff strat of Wish + Regen. Wish + Regen is basically a way to heal up a teammate with very minimal momentum loss, so this ability is notably pretty pro-concept. I think its a bit boring, but it def fits, which is why I'm mentioning it first.

Edit: I want to note that I think this ability is potentially a very bad idea, and could easily create a mon that can just choke the meta. Regenerator is an incredibly strong ability, and would require severe sacrifices in either stats or movepool to really end up as something I am ok with, especially with HDB around.

Immunity Abilities: As we saw pretty recently with Equilibra, an immunity ability gives you a drastically larger number of mons you can come in for free on. There's a ton of them, and imo the most interesting are ones such as Bulletproof (immunity to sludge bomb is funny vs mollux), Lightning Rod/Volt Absorb (turns electric stuff into a legit won matchup). Overall a category worth mentioning, but not one I think is that worth doing because well it does legit expand our switchin opportunities quite substantially, however, as libra showed, these abilities are very polarizing. (Levitate also exists, but sorta contradicts our desire to be checked by Grounds). A final one is Immunity, which notably lets us lean super hard into a pseudo-stallbreaker role, giving us immunity to Mollux's Sludge Bomb Poison, as well as Toxic from stuff like Pex.

More Utility on Attacks:

Poison Touch
: So, this ability is one I love a ton, because it takes Fire / Dragon stab combo, where Fire admittedly has a lot of cool secondary effect moves, and where Dragon has very few, and adds a 30% Poison chance to any contact move we use. This is legit super cool, and super pro-concept because it means that our damaging moves are effectively letting us cripple or wear down our checks using support options, that is, a Poisoned Hippowdon is suddenly easier to put into range for our teammate Excadrill, a Poisoned Gastrodon is gonna match up way worse vs Krillowatt. Because its adding a support secondary to all of our damaging moves, I view this ability as an excellent way to actualize Offensive Support.

Serene Grace: Fire/Dragon is actually in possession of a few secondary effect moves that would become amazing with their chances doubled. And, luckily, no STAB flinch moves, which means that we can basically allow ourselves to spread supporting conditions such as Burn (Lava Plume, literally every fire move) and Paralysis (Dragon Breath) while also getting damage, again, something I view as fairly pro-concept. For similar reasons the ability to stack extra supporting power onto our main offensive STABs is very relevant here.

Don't hit me:

This is a pretty broad category of abilities, but stuff like Flame Body and Rough Skin both broadly fall into the "if you make contact with this mon you are punished" kinda category, and well, something where we can make it so the opponent really doesn't wanna click U-turn is super good for any offensive team, and like, as Garchomp and Moltres showed us last Gen, this kinda ability really does fit well on an Offensive Support, as well, its free supporting powers that only require you to be bulky enough to take a hit or two.

Revenge Killing:

This again is a pretty broad category, but abilities such as Prankster, Sturdy, and Multiscale mean that no matter what you can sorta work as a Revenge Killer, an Offensive role, and as long as you maintain the ability to function as a pseudo-revenge killer, you're sorta safe. This is seen in past gens with Prankwave Thundy-I and certain BW era Dragonite sets. The ability to just use your ability to protect your team from sweepers means that you can spend a lot of your set on support options and still contribute as an offensive support.

Edit:
Unaware also fits into the category of revenge killer, and, if put onto an offensive mon would give us a very unique position as a sorta revenge killer hybrid offensive hybrid support mon, which absolutely is pro-concept. This would also tilt the CM Clef matchup potentially into our favor. I think a lot of work would have to be done with this ability to deny the ability to just lean purely into a supporting role, but its a very interesting potential direction for us to go.

3) Are there abilities that can give or enable CAP 27 to use the type of utility options discussed in Concept Assessment?
This is discussed a bit above, but Regenerator is a pretty solid way to enable wish, shoving utility into the ability thanks to SG or PT can also enable moveslot inefficient stuff, eg Wish, Heal Bell, and again, the Revenge Killing options would definitely allow you to viably run support options such as Thunder Wave on your main set.
 
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1) Given CAP 27's typing and the first look we got at its future place in the metagame through threats discussion, should the primary ability focus on shoring up defensive utility or enhancing offensive presence?
Given how strong our type combination is regarding offensive potential, our ability should aim to further build upon our defensive utility. Our typing offers some ideal resistances, but we should provide a few more opportunities for CAP27 to enter the battle or let CAP27 exploit its already favorable matchups would be better.

2) What abilities would be the most useful for improving CAP 27's utility?
Immunity abilities are some of the lowest hanging fruit when it comes to extending our utility. When I say that, I’m referring more to the Levitates and Water Absorbs of the world. We don’t really learn much from their inclusion since they simply patch weaknesses or remove neutral hits. However, a more niche immunity could be more appropriate as minor utility buffs can be just a valuable provided the right set of circumstances.

Quziel mentioned a few that caught my attention. Elevating our electric resistance to an immunity either through Volt Absorb or Lightning Rod could be very beneficial. They don't really impact our match-ups from the previous stage but lets us squeeze a little bit more out of them. Free heal opportunities are always nice to have as an option, or, provided we lean into a special attacking approach, the boost would make our offensive presence more threatening. The inability to paralyze 27 through use of electric moves is also a nice plus. It is a very Mega-Sceptile approach and could prove very beneficial given our concept objectives.

Following the release of Home, Toxic has found its way back on to a plethora of movesets, especially the Rotoms. An ability like Immunity gives us an additional status to sponge for the team and extends our utility as we avoid getting rapidly whittled down. Magic Bounce could also fall in this category as it deflects toxic back at the user, but it also has the added benefit of deflecting other non-damaging status moves and hazards.

Regenerator: Ah s***, here we go again. While memed and widely regarded as too generically good to consider, it is a viable option to extend CAP27’s use during a battle. Everyone and their mom is talking about HDB like it’s the only item in existence this project, so the combination of the two keeps it alive and available for team support longer. This doesn’t mean it’s the route we should take, but we can’t just discount it because it is such a strong contender.
 
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Deck Knight

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Weighing in on a few things:

Regenerator: While I would enjoy having more general item utility with CAP 27, Regenerator is just too good and too versatile not to be a distraction. It makes every sort of set from Choics sets to Assault Vest to stallier sets infinitely better, and will distort the support role more than fulfill it. Why should I run HDB and support moves when I can just chuck around Choice Flare Blitz/Outrage/[Overheat/Fire Blast]/Draco Meteor and net surprise 2HKOs off neutral damage?

This typing and CAP's general bend to hit the numbers just makes Regenerator way too much of a distraction.

Serene Grace: I know a lot if people have terrifying memories of this, like Jirachi haxing out their Magnezone. That said it is an ideal offensive support ability that would make me actually want to run Lava Plume and Dragon Breath, not to mention it does amazing things for any Poison and Steel coverage moves, plus oddball Normal options. All we have to do is avoid flinching moves and I think Serene Grace is an ideal concept fulfilling option. Serene Grace greatly increases the viability of lower power / greater effect attacks, the exact kind you would use on an offensive support Pokemon.

Neutralizing Gas: I realize it's a new signature ability on a regular Pokemon, but shutting down Corviknight's Pressure, Mollux's Dry Skin, Clefable's Magic Guard (it eats both LO and Toxic damage while it's active), blunting Regen cores, and interfering in a whole host of other strong CAP meta-relevant Abilities is an insane amount of team support. The downside is it basically means CAP 27 itself has no ability, but it's a crazy trade-off to the positive.

Those are really the two abilities that are top tier primary ability candidates for an offensive support Pokemon in my view

Otherwise Sticky Hold, Oblivious, Immunuty, and Scrappy allow, respectively, a safeguard against Knock Off/Trick, Taunt, Toxic, and Spin-blocking respectively, with Oblivious and Scrappy also getting buffed to ignore Intimidate. These seem more like secondary ability material meant to enable some contingency sets.
 
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1) Given CAP 27's typing and the first look we got at its future place in the metagame through threats discussion, should the primary ability focus on shoring up defensive utility or enhancing offensive presence?
While I believe either option is totally reasonable, I prefer shoring up defensive utility as we need a way to increase our chances to come in on foes. The one thing I would like to state for the record I totally oppose are one-dimensional offensive abilities. These include the likes of Sheer Force, Infiltrator, Iron Fist, and any other power boosting ability under the sun. This does also include Drought despite utility applications, although I sense nobody in their right mind would suggest that on this type combo. In general, we already have absurd levels of STAB coverage that boosting our power even further runs the risk of us becoming an all-out attacker.
2) What abilities would be the most useful for improving CAP 27's utility?
In terms of defensive utility, I would say the two best abilities are Grassy Surge and Regenerator. The former not only provides gradual healing to the entire team but also reduces Earthquake power for anything (including ourselves) that doesn't like eating them. This makes our matchup stronger against the likes of Colossoil. Regenerator on the other hand is more straightforward, letting us constantly come in and switch out throughout the match and act as a general damage sponge with firepower to boot. Either one would work wonders for us. Regenerator is the meme of a generic ability but it actually works this time.
3) Are there abilities that can give or enable CAP 27 to use the type of utility options discussed in Concept Assessment?
Poison Touch is a fun ability that gives us utility with every contact move, although it does strongarm us into being physical by its nature. Serene Grace is also an interesting choice that boosts stuff like Lava Plume and Dragon Breath status chances. There is one ability thus far not mentioned that I would like to discuss however. That ability is Cotton Down. For those who forgot Eldegoss existed, it lowers the speed of all adjacent Pokemon when the user is attacked. It works on non-contact moves, unlike similar abilities such as Gooey or Tangling Hair that only go off on contact. The idea behind this one is simple. The idea is we come in on one of the Pokemon we want to handle that is offensive, such as Zeraora or Kerfluffle. They then get slowed down, which leaves them in a suboptimal position, and depending on our stats, slower than us. This can easily force the foe to switch out, thus giving us an opportunity to perform any utility we wish to perform. While one could argue Flame Body could do something similar, it only has a chance of occurring and can be replaced by STABs anyway. Also, it would leave out special attackers such as special Syclant and Kerfluffle. Flame Body would still be a decent choice don't get me wrong, but I feel Cotton Down works better.
 
I really don't know why no one has talked about Poison Heal yet. I think it's an incredible ability to consider, as combines a reliable form of recovery and immunity to poison status. We have already seen through Gliscor that this can be an excellent skill, both offensive and defensively, which is demonstrated by the offensive support role played by the bat-scorpion.

I don't have much more to say than that, but I would like to express my support for some of the options suggested here. My favorites are Regenerator, Immunity, Poison Touch and Sticky Hold. Regenerator is amazing for a Pokémon that wants to exercise utility, Torn-T is there to prove it. Immunity is an alternative option for Poison Heal. Poison Touch is an interesting choice that gives us physical moves with a 30% chance of poison, it may not seem like much, but using a Fire Lash / Knock Off that poisons your opponent is really useful. Sticky Hold is a more unusual option, but in this particular case it is an interesting way to go, alleviating CAP27 problem with Knock Off and allowing you to ignore hazards if used with hdb.

Other options that I find interesting here are Compound Eyes, Serene Grace and Unaware. Compound Eyes and Serene Grace encourage the use of utility and offensive moves with low accuracy and low chances secondary effects, respectively. Unaware turns our matchup against CM Clef and others setuppers.
 
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Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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1) Given CAP 27's typing and the first look we got at its future place in the metagame through threats discussion, should the primary ability focus on shoring up defensive utility or enhancing offensive presence?
Fire/Dragon is such a great stab combination that if we go with an offensive ability I think we are veering more towards a wall breaker or choice item user etc than we are to more general offensive utility/support. Fire/Dragon does have a few resistances, but ultimately is neutral or weak to almost all of the common attacking types, as well as weak to all entry hazards. It could use some help defensively. You can’t fulfill the concept of providing team support if you can only switch in once before dying.

2) What abilities would be the most useful for improving CAP 27's utility?
Plain and simple the best way to prolong CAP 27’s lifespan is heavy duty boots, negating its severe weakness to hazards. A few of the Pokémon CAP 27 might like to switch into though run Knock Off or even sometimes Trick. To me that makes the choice of Sticky Hold obvious. Short of Magic Guard, which I’m not even going to entertain, nothing else will help CAP 27 more.

3) Are there abilities that can give or enable CAP 27 to use the type of utility options discussed in Concept Assessment?
I’d say that while Sticky Hold doesn’t strictly speaking enable anything, I’d say that because it is such a one track ability, focused purely on supporting HDB and longevity, it frees up being more aggressive with stats or move pool, since there isn’t also such a strong ability to go with it.
 
The Terrain/Weather abilities are strong contenders for fitting in concept. Drizzle, Grassy Surge, Electric Surge and Psychic Surge all give CAP27 psudo-STAB with their respective type (increasing it by 50% while the effect is active) and allow auto support for teammates just with switch ins. Half the surges prevent statuses or immunity to priority while Grassy Surge even halves the damage of the most common Physical Ground moves. Even Snow Warning and Sand Stream have their uses as they break sturdy/sash while allowing CAP27 to continue pressure while also providing utility in typing to those types of playstyles.

Serene Grace and No Guard are also great in concept. Serene Grace lets moves apply their secondary effect more often (though admittedly most of the secondary effects are stat drops) while No Guard allows low accuracy moves to always hit. Coupled with Dynamic Punch, Zap Cannon or Inferno it could both wound and cripple the opposing Mons. Inferno deserves special mention as it could also be thought Will 'o' Wisp that can't be taunted and breaks sashes or as a stronger Flamethrower that always burns.

An ability that grants immunity would be boring but good. Free switch ins is nothing to scoff at could potentially swing some matchups in our favor. Likewise Poison Heal/Immunity could give us immunity to both sets of damage over time status effects making it harder for defensive Mon to play around us.
 
Really not a fan of the contact punishment abilities like Rough Skin and Flame Body. I don't think they actually provide that much of a boost to 27's offensive support role, because they neither make it easier to switch in to provide support or improve the supportive oomph of its attacks. Passively punishing contact users through chip or the chance of a burn is more in the domain of a defensive pokemon who can actually sit around and take hits, not an offensive support mon that will be relatively frail. Yes, it could score some nice bonuses a la Volcarona, but when you have a definite limit on how many hits you can take, the overall benefit of these abilities will be much smaller than most of our other options.

I do kinda like Cotton Down because A) it punishes all attacks rather than just contact moves, B) the speed drop allows 27 to follow up with an offensive response against a faster pokemon or support a teammate to do so, and C) it's interesting and hasn't been explored.

Bughouse mentioned that offensive abilities could encourage 27 to be used as a straight-up attacker rather than offensive support, and I agree that this is possible, but only for certain abilities. For instance, Compound Eyes, while cool, will almost certainly be used to abuse Fire Blast and Dragon Rush more than support moves like Thunder Wave. Poison Touch and Serene Grace, on the other hand, could actually lead to 27 utilizing weaker attacks in order to capitalize on the supportive benefits (i.e. Fire Punch/Fire Lash for Poison Touch, Lava Plume and Dragon Breath for Serene Grace). As such these are two of my favorite considerations--they really package offense and support all into one. That said, if we are still concerned with 27 running away as a pure attacker, Poison Touch is probably the riskier of two, as it could still benefit from PT using Flare Blitz and Outrage, while most of the best Serene Grace moves are weaker. Also note that Poison Touch encourages a physical bent and Serene Grace mostly encourages a special one, so if we want to leave it open-ended, a defensive ability might be the way to go.

Of the immunity abilities, my favorites are Immunity and Bulletproof for protecting it from Toxic and Sludge Bomb respectively, solidifying some of its key match-ups. By contrast, Volt Absorb and Lightning Rod don't offer much that's new, while Levitate, Water Absorb, etc give it too much defensive counterplay that will discourage its offensive potential.

The other abilities that really allow it to do its job better (that is, for a longer amount of time), are Sticky Hold and Regenerator, of which I have nothing new to add. They're both great. One is more focused and the other all-encompassing. I'm not that enamored with Grassy Terrain, because I don't think the healing chip compares with the benefits of the other abilities, especially since it helps the opponent too. The earthquake softening would be the main sell.

TLDR:
No to Rough Skin, Flame Body, Compound Eyes, Most Immunity Abilities (Volt Absorb, Lightning Rod, Levitate, Water Absorb, etc), Grassy Terrain
Yes to Cotton Down, Poison Touch, Serene Grace, Immunity, Bulletproof, Sticky Hold, Regenerator
 
1) Given CAP 27's typing and the first look we got at its future place in the metagame through threats discussion, should the primary ability focus on shoring up defensive utility or enhancing offensive presence?
Im going to echo the general consensus, that a more defensively inclined ability will mostly be better, as our offensive presence is already quite good from typing alone and our defensive utility only mediocre, considering that we are neutral to all major attacking types this gen, except the occasional fire and electric/uturn resistances and weak to all hazards.
Still there are more offensively inclined options that fit this concept really well.


2) What abilities would be the most useful for improving CAP 27's utility?

3) Are there abilities that can give or enable CAP 27 to use the type of utility options discussed in Concept Assessment?
Offensive options:

Corrosion has really good synergy with Fire stab and helps breaking or chipping down poison walls, letting us handle Mollux and Pex in new ways (i don’t necessarily think corrosion toxic is cool but standard poison could be something)

Compressing secondary effects into attacking moves with Poison touch, and serene grace, make spreading status easier for physical, respectively special attackers

An ability which hasn’t been touched is Innards out.
Innards out works really well with the way we interact with our pressure list.
Since many things on there threaten to nuke us in a 1v1 and on a switch, they would have to be cautious throwing around their strongest stabs, lest they want to risk being nuked themselves, giving us maybe more chances to switch in and force them out while at full health, giving us the possibility to hurt the swi h in, perform utility or to take out a valuable threat.

Defensive options:

These roughly group into three categories:

1) Reducing/Stopping direct damage:

Filter and Solid Rock help us in matchups against many of our pressures as They might deny those mons a Ko while we threaten them back.

Multiscale and Sturdy work similarly while at full health and also allow us to come in on more stuff especially with hdb.

Thick fat gives us back our ice resistance, making it harder for Kyurem and Clant to choose between stab and coverage and creating a ridiculous 6times resistance against fire.

Intimidate and Unaware reduce the damage output of a group of mons letting us handle them more easily.

2) Soaking up status or indirect damage:

Magic Bounce and Magic Guard stand out between these, because both deny Status completely (Outside of moldbreaker, added effects and TSpikes) AND offer ways to deal with entry hazards, either adding longevity or working as hazard control.

Stick hold is just a weak Magic guard with HDB really but maybe that’s the selling point

3) Adding Longevity:

Poison heal also helps soaking up status and is a steady form of recovery, although it kinda requires Toxic orb, which doesn’t really synergize with our typing.

Regenerator is generally good, but fits this mon so well, enabling Wishpassing and maybe even forgoing hdb or greatly increasing their usefulness.

Grassy surge has been brought up early for its ability to grant recovery for CAP27 and its team and reducing EQ, while boosting grass type coverage.
I don’t really like this option though as EQ can be swapped for High Horsepower on most mons, we might abuse the encreased power of grass ourselves On some of our C+C and it grants recovery to the opponent too.
Especially Clef and Mollux could become problematic as pressures as they love the extra recovery while setting up.

Edit:
I was made aware that my post didn’t adhere to the OP in listing too many abilities.
I Initially added all abilities, which I thought could help the concept. With the edit I removed the abilities I don’t deem as good as the ones I kept.
It’s still a long list but I tried to shortly justify each of the named abilities.
 
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Given CAP 27's typing and the first look we got at its future place in the metagame through threats discussion, should the primary ability focus on shoring up defensive utility or enhancing offensive presence?

Both definitely have their merits, but I think abilities that help with defensive utility in general will serve us better, and any abilities that help us in both areas would be great moving forward. An ability like Magic Guard definitely helps in both areas, toxic immunity, freeing up the item slot from reliance on HDB, and even allowing the use of a life orb and/or recoil moves with no repercussions.

2) What abilities would be the most useful for improving CAP 27's utility?

Abilities like Regenerator that help CAP's longevity, allowing more pivoting opportunity are definitely good in my book. The passive healing gives it a lot more switchins and a lot more support move clicks.
Magic Guard also works well to give more switchin opportunities here. It allows CAP to come in without fear of hazards or toxics, and frees up the item slot too.
Other abilities that straight up provide utility are helpful too, like Grassy Surge. Giving passive recovery CAP helps it defensively, and the passive recovery (and potential 1.3x on grass moves) provides another useful avenue for team support outside of moves. Drought also fits this bill, providing sun for its teammates is useful, plus it boosts its own Fire STAB and essentially gives itself a water resistance. I also think Magic Bounce fits here, deflecting status moves, making it pseudo status immune is a big plus, and I think being able to come in on predicted status moves or hazards and deflect them right back at the opponent is a pretty nice means of support.
Serene Grace is an interesting one here, because it likely means leas base power on the moves CAP is using, but it also means a more offensive approach, turning a lot of attacking moves into potential support moves as well. And a 60% burn chance is definitely another avenue of pressure that limits what wants to switchin. Somewhat compressing status moves and attacking moves into less moveslots is pretty niche too.

3) Are there abilities that can give or enable CAP 27 to use the type of utility options discussed in Concept Assessment?

The generically good abilities like Regenerator definitely help here. More switchin opportunities = more utility chances. Plus it helps to combat the momentum sink using Wish causes if we wish to go that route.
Toxic is a great way to wear down fat mons that offensive teams tend to struggle with, and Corrosion absolutely shits on a few of those mons which are otherwise immune, like Toxapex and Mollux.
 
1) Given CAP 27's typing and the first look we got at its future place in the metagame through threats discussion, should the primary ability focus on shoring up defensive utility or enhancing offensive presence?
I think we need at least one ability to shore up our defences. Our typing is primarily offensive, and without a Fairy, Ice or Water resist it needs some help on this side.
2) What abilities would be the most useful for improving CAP 27's utility?
I have been considering Sticky Hold from the beginning. Why? There are several reasons why Sticky Hold would make a great ability for CAP 27.
  1. Permanent immunity to hazards in conjunction with the Boots. This is the obvious upside of Sticky Hold. Just ask Clefable what immunity to hazards can do for you, and in CAP 27's case, immunity to hazards is very, very useful to negate Stealth Rock. An ability which pairs so strongly with our most natural item should not be underestimated.
  2. Sticky Hold in general is underexplored. The FE Pokemon that have gotten Sticky Hold thusfar are restricted to:
    • Gastrodon (resists Rocks anyway and needs to run Storm Drain)
    • Accelgor (no defensive utility, needs offensive items)
    • Muk (not Alolan) and Swalot (both bad and Dexited)
    • However, it has seen use in LC on mons such as Shellos and (in the past) Trubbish. The Eviolite VS Knock Off metagame in LC makes Sticky Hold invaluable for these two.
    • I therefore think that Sticky Hold should be further investigated in the context on a Pokemon that benefits greatly from keeping its held item.
  3. Trick immunity. People just seem to have passed over this point. IMO it is Sticky Hold's #1 selling point. Why? Well, the Knock Off "immunity" does come at a price: Knock becomes a permanent 97.5 BP move against us. But Trick just flat-out fails against us. And in the current metagame, Trick is a terrifying move. There are no safe switch-ins for a Pokemon that might carry Trick. Indeed, Trick Clefable was one of the most spammed Pokemon in SS OU prior to HOME and the rise of WishPort. Rotom forms have been Tricking all kinds of nasty items onto their opposition. Even Obstagoon has been Switcheroo-ing its Flame Orb onto something else. And with the absence of Mega Stones and Z Crystals (plus Silvally's continued inviability), there simply does not exist a switch-in for a Pokemon that might carry Trick. Except, of course, another Pokemon with Trick. Giving CAP 27 Sticky Hold would give it a niche occupied by no other viable Pokemon: A safe switch-in to Trick users. This helps our matchups like:
    • Rotom forms: CAP 27 would love to switch in on Rotom-H and Rotom-M without worrying about being Tricked a Choice Scarf.
    • Clefable: Not losing our item to Clef, and especially being immune to receiving a Sticky Barb, would ensure CAP 27 can switch-in on any defensive Clefable.
    • Celebi and Jirachi: Two more switch-ins that might give us a nasty present.
Not to mention Knock Off users like Caribolt, Zeraora and Ferrothorn we'd love to abuse, and taking the extra damage from their Knocks is well worth not losing our item. Oh, and one more thing.​
3) Are there abilities that can give or enable CAP 27 to use the type of utility options discussed in Concept Assessment?
Sticky Hold does not prevent CAP 27 from using Trick! No Pokemon with Sticky Hold has had Trick or Switcheroo. And it allows CAP 27 to pass items to the opposition without fear of having them passed back. In particular, I see this solidifying CAP 27's Mollux matchup. Mollux often carries the Boots we want, and hates being passed other items. While it would be a niche set, it would allow CAP 27 to support its team in an even wider perspective, and make Mollux more fearful of us too.
I see no other Ability that even comes close to the utility Sticky Hold gives CAP 27. Immunity to Trick is a niche that makes CAP 27 a massive threat to teams that rely on Tricking the mons they cannot beat head-on, and gives it a much stronger matchup against the top threats. If I had to suggest another one that isn't Magic Guard, I would pick Levitate, but neither of these or any other Ability fix the fundamental issue of our switch-ins taking away our item. They would make it less reliant on it, but... We would either still be taking Rocks damage or risk becoming another Life Orb attacker.
 
1) Given CAP 27's typing and the first look we got at its future place in the metagame through threats discussion, should the primary ability focus on shoring up defensive utility or enhancing offensive presence?

2) What abilities would be the most useful for improving CAP 27's utility?

3) Are there abilities that can give or enable CAP 27 to use the type of utility options discussed in Concept Assessment?

Been waiting for this day for a while and already people are posting some great stuff. Even pitched some abilities I already have in mine.

1) Instead of trying to find def utility abilities or offensive abilities, an ability that would do both to me is ideal to fulfill the idea of "offensive team support."

2) There are a couple of abilities that really appeal to me. Magic Guard, Regenerator, Rough Skin, Lightning Rod, and Sticky Hold. Each ability improves CAP 27's utility in their own way with some being more utility based, and some trying to bring that mix of offensive pressure and utility.

Magic Guard: This ability is super powerful. One of the main concerns CAP 27 has is losing Heavy-Duty Boots throughout a game. Magic Guard is an un knock offable Heavy Duty Boots and then some. In addition to no hazard dmg taken, and immunity to poison dmg gives CAP 27 a better matchup against Mollux or Toxic Users. Offensively, the ability to have a non recoil Life Orb (and potential Flare Blitz) help offensive pressure a lot.

Regenerator: An issue that was talked about in Concept Assessment was the loss of momentum caused by healing. Regenerator easily gets around this issue and a couple of great offensive support mons like Tournadus-T and Tangrowth have shown this. Also Crucibelle to an extent.

Rough Skin/Iron Barbs: While I described Magic Guard as an un Knock Off Heavy Duty Boots and then some, Rough Skin/Iron Barb is a diet un knock off Rocky Helmet. Which is an item I really like. With a resistance to Bug, the ability to switch in on U-Turn and get some free dmg is already promising to me. Spreading residual dmg is already a great support ability but it also improves the offensive pressure of this mon. My fav example of this ability is tank chomp. With Rocky Helmet +Rough skin, Chomp can deal 29.2% of an opponents HP just by switching in. With that much dmg, it could potentially get a kill or force a switch due to its mixture of speed and power of its STAB EQ even with no atk investment.

Lightning Rod: This seems a bit weird considering CAP 27's resistance to electric but hear me out. This ability improves def utility by giving free switch on Thunder Wave, take away an opponents momentum grabbing volt switch, and makes CAP 27 better at handling Zeraora something the meta appreciates right now. It converts this utility into offensive pressure via the +1 SpA boost. The utility of an electric immunity is why it beats Storm Drain (to me).

Sticky Hold: This ability has been discussed a bit already so I don't think I can add more to it. The ability to not get your item removed via knock off or tricked is some serious utility to consider. Not a huge fan of this as a primary ability but this would be awesome for a secondary viable ability.

EDIT: After some discussion today with Snake_Rattler I am going back on my idea of Lightning Rod and instead going with
Motor Drive
or
Volt Absorb.

These abilities still provide an electric immunity with Volt Absorb providing healing thus increasing longevity or Motor Drives speed boost which increases CAP 27's ability to put pressure on the opponent. The idea of getting a speed boost and potentially outspeed :Zeraora: is definitely tempting to me. The main reason for these abilities over Lightning Rod is so we aren't forced into a special attacker.
 
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lyd

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1) Given CAP 27's typing and the first look we got at its future place in the metagame through threats discussion, should the primary ability focus on shoring up defensive utility or enhancing offensive presence?

2) What abilities would be the most useful for improving CAP 27's utility?

3) Are there abilities that can give or enable CAP 27 to use the type of utility options discussed in Concept Assessment?
Honestly, I think our main concern with a Fire/Dragon offensive utility CAP should be hazards. Obviously, it's not NECESSARY to give it a way around hazards, but I feel like it's definitely something that would really hamper a Pokémon with this particular role. Like sure, Heavy-Duty Boots, but this generation has so many defensive Pokémon with Knock Off, and in general, Knock Off will still be a huge problem for many generations to come. All four options I'm gonna talk about here have already been mentioned but I wanna show my support to them because this subforum has no likes :(

Sticky Hold is probably the most unique of the four, making our Boots unKnockOffable by Ferrothorn, Clefable, Mandibuzz, etc. And it could possibly even be useful for a potential more offensive Life Orb variant of CAP that doesn't wanna lose its power output by switching into a Knock Off.

Regenerator is the good ability we all know, giving us 33% recovery without hazards up and 8% with them. Someone also mentioned its synergy with Wish which is definitely appreciated as well!

Magic Guard allows CAP27 to free up its item slot, and it works well with Life Orb and a handful of Fire-type moves, like Flare Blitz on the physical end, and Mind Blown on the special end. This ability also provides a status immunity (except paralysis) which is quite handy.

Poison Heal doesn't directly help with hazards, but staying in for mere two turns already negates hazards damage which can be pretty handy, and shouldn't be hard to accomplish especially if CAP does end up using the combo of Wish + Protect on its arsenal. This one also provides full status immunity (provided you're not an idiot like me and can properly activate your Toxic Orb).

The other abilities are all very interesting but right now my main concern would be with hazards.
 
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1) Given CAP 27's typing and the first look we got at its future place in the metagame through threats discussion, should the primary ability focus on shoring up defensive utility or enhancing offensive presence?

I think,if we pick an ability that only offers one of the two, the focus should be on the defensive or utility side. But there are a lot of abilities that offer both, and personally I will be a lot more satisfied by abilities that can offer both since there are so many of them to pick from. This is, in my opinion, not a concept to pick a small ability.

2) What abilities would be the most useful for improving CAP 27's utility?
3) Are there abilities that can give or enable CAP 27 to use the type of utility options discussed in Concept Assessment?

Trying to answer these 2 questions somewhat together, I think when it comes to utility we can look at 3 diff types of routes:

1) Abilities that allow this mon to stick around for longer
These types of abilities improve our ability to switch in more times and on more things, matching the defensive aspect of the role as mentioned in previous discussions previous discussions.
This ability has been mentioned before- not only does it allow a lot more switchin options (for instance, not having to worry so much about guessing a neutral or resisted attack from a mollux), it opens up our offenses to use recoil moves without worry, as well as items outside of heavy duty boots. I dont personally believe dragon or fire or good moves to lock into, so I dont think this mon is too likely to slap on a choice item, but there are other things to stop this down the line also. I am a fan of this ability, I also recognise it could be the strongest ability on the list for better or worse.

Similar to regen, this offers us the ability to use any item we want, as well as improving our offense with recoil moves and LO in particular. mons we said we definitely want to swith in on like rotom use toxic, and both regen and magic guard make toxic a non-issue. It makes Ferrothorn much easier to beat also because we arent afraid of losing our item or getting leech seeded. This to me is somewhat parallel to Regenerator in this situation, as long as we do continue down the offensive route and dont accidentally slip into making a wall.

This is the less mild version of Immunity. This once again improves our Rotom-H matchup, and our longevity in general. We absolutely will have the free slots to run protect if wanted thanks to our excellent coverage, as well as a new offensive option in Facade, and it also would discourage Toxapex off of toxic spiking just by sitting in the back. What I dont know much about (and the OM guys can probably shed light on this) is impact of an offensive Poison Heal pokemon.

This is a veeeery mild ability that lets us keep our item vs a Rotom trick, or a Clefable knock off. It helps us do our job a little better, but I do believe the above abilities offer better item freedom, as well as a myriad of other benefits. This ability is very small and one-dimensional, and I think perhaps better left to see if it could be a secondary or even third ability for this pokemon (due to being a near downgrade to other options)

Simple but effective, this ability is appropriate for the concept and powerful. I like it. There isnt much to say here, it pairs well with pivoting moves and doesnt cause issues for the pokemon that want to come in on us. Its safe, powerful, and cap just loves to slap this on everything lol



2) Abilities that add/improve utility to moves
These concepts give us bonus utility on our attacks and status moves, tying mostly into question 2. This route maximises the offensive potential of utility (which to me, is leaning more towards what this concept is all about)
This is undeniably one of my favourites, it adds a chance to poison for basically all the physical STAB moves. Dropping a chipping damage condition on the enemy pokemon while hitting them at the same time is a great way to interpret the concept as it wont put them on a timer, but it prevents them from being fully healthy for checking your teammates. It also pairs well with moves that already offer utility such as item removal, other status, pivoting or phasing. This to me is the ultimate 2-moveslot concept, since we've already achieved everything in the concept in 2 slots and then we can have freedom to explore damn near anything we want in the other 2.

This is another fun option. Dragon moves in particular have wonderful technician-compatible moves that offer a lot of utility, Dragon Tail, Breaking Swipe, Dragon Breath. Not only are they useful but there is a lot of variety there that could go down different routes. As for non-stab, just look through the list, there are plenty of utility-heavy moves that we can go. The hangup of this ability is we wont be able to give it every technician-fitting move in the book, because the coverage would probably be overwhelming.

This is a top tier option to me. On the special side there are a few moves that allow us to mass spread burns or paralysis while attacking, which is just like Poison Touch's good quality. It offers is less damage output (both in chip and BP of moves) and less freedom to switch up moves, since poison touch works on every STAB and contact coverage while SG is limited to specific moves, as well as the risk of clashing status. But what it does offer is more impactful statuses than regular poison as well as a much higher chance of activating. There are serene grace options for the 3 major status conditions (bad poison, para, and burn), and I just love the idea of inflicting these while damaging at the same time. It really is a great option for the concept.

I think this one is worth mentioning. It feels like the least offensive route of this category, leaning more towards panic defense than offensive pressure which I wouldnt equate to the same thing. However, Prankster does offer a quick shutdown of sweepers with priority paralysis or burn, which is the main sell, as well as prankster hazards which fit on an offensive team (if your interpretation of offensive support is supportive role on an offensive team). It feels a bit one-dimensional and I would be worried to dive into the idea of prankster recovery.



3) Utility just by switching in
This grants some kind of benefit without us needing to click a move. Most of these provide stronger team support than the two other categories, either playing an archetypal role or helping to support via elimination.
Strong option here. This gives us utility before we put a move into our moveset. It helps with the matchups we want to win, like Rotom-H and Ferrothorn, as keeps hazards off the field in the most offensive way possible. In an offensive route, I think this ability can be a little less oppressive, though naturally it is one of the best abilities in the game still.

Im torn. What it offers is healing for the team and self, not a whole lot, but it can add up. It also offers a boosted coverage move in Grass, if we want it. It could help mitigate a little recoil for our attacks too. The only thing I dont like about this ability is I think Regenerator is a better healing option that also wont be healing our opponent. While GTerrain gives us leftovers recovery, to me that would never be enough to either free up/change a moveslot or feel like I have freedom to switch up my item like Regen or Magic Guard does. I also dont believe we would go the boosted grass coverage route because water and rock types on our checklist, so we really are using barely anything from this abil. I think this one is okay. Also it is a personal attack to the artists >:(

I'll touch on it briefly- yes this could be a decent Drought mon as itll be boosting its own STAB (and potentially recovery?) and it has much better typing synergy with Venusaur than the alternative Jumbao. I dont really have anything bad to say about this ability, but I can see people not being interested in another Drought setter.

This is the evil twin of Grassy Terrain. Instead of healing everyone, we are chipping everyone. Teammates can appreciate the spdef boost or boost from Sand Rush, and because of our typing we actually have a good type to pair with teammates like Stratagem and Excadrill, covering each others weaknesses more than something like a Tyranitar or Hippo as well as killing annoying mons for Excadrill such as Corviknight or Rotom-H. Now what is horrible about this ability is that we chip ourselves on turn 2, and there arent any tools to abuse sand ourselves. That being said, when it comes to weather setters, I could still see this being used as a setter because it stands so separate to what the other setters can do, with such a different typing and potential spread. I like this one because it feels very unique and would be interested to hear discussion on it.

This is a cool ability that deals damage before you click anything. This is nice because now pursuit is gone, its the only way to lay damage on something (to forcibly wear it down) before it can react or switch out. This fits the offensive supportive role of elimination, although hugely scaled down from alternative methods like Arena Trap/Shadow Tag/Pursuit (none of which are allowed). This ability speaks for itself and has proven itself in OU in generation after generation, Garchomp in particular shows one way this ability can be done right. I dont have too much to say on this ability right now apart from that I like it. It offers damage in a way that no other ability can, and even discourage knock off from physical attackers.

Similar to the above Rough Skin/Barbs, this neutralises physical attackers before they get a chance to switch out. On this right stats this ability goes nuts, and is absolutely pro concept. What this ability lacks is consistency, and neither this or skin/barbs mesh with any moveset options. But what they do well is create an ominous presence even while not on the field, which can really work in your team's favour. Never again will that Syclant click U-turn without sweating.

The chaotic evil ability of choice. This lets us explode on attackers, a bizarre mix of the prankster panic button and the "dont hit me" abilities listed just before this. It falls under the supportive role of elimination again, and is honestly formidable depending on the hp stat, but it encourages us to sit in the back and not take damage unless we have a method to keep our hp up, which i really dont like for a more supportive role, and only switch in to die. I just wanted to touch on this ability for fun, but honestly I dont really think it fits.


some of these fell into multiple categories so i went with the one that fit most
 
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This falls under the supportive role of elimination again, and is honestly formidable depending on the hp stat, but it encourages us to sit in the back and not take damage unless we have a method to keep our hp up, which i really dont like for a more supportive role, and only switch in to die. I just wanted to touch on this ability for fun, but honestly I dont really think it fits.
It doesn’t necessarily make us sit back all of the time.
Heavy duty boots will remedy Hauard weakness for some time and recovery helps with other chip.
I think it would be really pro concept switching in at full health lets say on a Dragapult Or an Exvadrill in Sand after a kill and forcing it to decide wether to stay in and chip is to die to one of our stabs or being crippled by utility, stay in and kill to take heavy damage to innards out or switch out and letting us nuke or cripple something else.
 

snake_rattler

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Given CAP 27's typing and the first look we got at its future place in the metagame through threats discussion, should the primary ability focus on shoring up defensive utility or enhancing offensive presence?
Given that we have a dual STAB that doesn't require any extra coverage, we can really get away with a more defensive ability. However, that should not exclude other offensive-based abilities that are grounded in utility. I also think that we can get away with a "weaker" ability that's more targeted to what CAP27 wants to do.

2) What abilities would be the most useful for improving CAP 27's utility?
Defensive:

Sticky Hold
  • Avoiding having HDB removed is pretty fantastic. When Knock Off has no viable immunities and a lot of CAP27's switch-ins really want to cripple it by removing its item, this kind of support would be fantastic for any team. Sure, CAP27 would be taking boosted Knock Off damage, but I'm sure that doesn't amount to the same damage as taking hazards + regular Knock Off damage throughout the rest of the fight, and we can tailor CAP27's stats to account for the boosted Knock Off damage. This seemingly "useless" ability actually has a good use right now and would provide team support by acting as a Knock Off absorber that can threaten out common Pokemon that use the move!
EDIT: Sticky Hold sucks

Intimidate
  • Out of all the strong abilities (as opposed to Regenerator, Magic Guard etc.), I think I like this one the most targeted. It weakens Corviknight's Brave Bird, Zeraora's coverage moves, and Ferrothorn's moves, solidifying these switch-ins, without impacting checks & counters that much (why would you switch into Terrakion or Hippowdon).
Offensive:

Poison Touch
  • Giving CAP27's attacking moves a 30% chance to poison is pretty nasty, and I think that's pretty cool for this concept. The Steel-types that would want to absorb the poison chance would be taking potentially super effective Fire-type damage in the process, so CAP27 would be an extremely effective user of it.
3) Are there abilities that can give or enable CAP 27 to use the type of utility options discussed in Concept Assessment?
Sticky Hold allows CAP27 to act as a Knock Off absorber for its team, which are in very low supply right now. Intimidate allows CAP27 to get in more easily and force switches. Poison Touch gives CAP27 a lot of opportunities to wear down the opposing team just by using its STAB attacks. I think these are extremely targeted, relevant, and useful effects for this project to utilize. They aren't too over the top in what they do like some more powerful abilities I've seen mentioned in the thread, providing just the effects CAP27 needs from its ability.
 
1) Given CAP 27's typing and the first look we got at its future place in the metagame through threats discussion, should the primary ability focus on shoring up defensive utility or enhancing offensive presence?

Definitely defensive. The typing we have is very strong offensively, we don't need to amp that up further.

2) What abilities would be the most useful for improving CAP 27's utility?

Just going to throw out a couple of ideas that I like. Magic Guard and Sticky Hold. Magic Guard is, quite frankly, a very powerful ability. It gives automatic HDB, effective immunity to poison and burn, and stops life or/recoil damage. It also gives the opportunity to cancel out opposing utility, as long as they don't do a lot of damage (utility mons generally don't do a lot of damage). Sticky Hold is also great because it completely denies trick users, which aren't prominent, but it's a niche worth filling. (Not polljumping: it also opens up the way for some potentially awesome designs).

3) Are there abilities that can give or enable CAP 27 to use the type of utility options discussed in Concept Assessment?

I could probably expand on this further (and I probably will later on), but I think it's explained enough at the moment. Magic guard allows safe switch ins and prevent our mon from being worn down, lets it do more wearing down of its own. Sticky Hold gives it a significant advantage against a couple of sets on a couple of mons and actually holds a significant drawback in terms of Knock Off damage, but could get some cool designs so we don't care.
 

Deck Knight

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So I want to go back to the OP because Ability discussion is jumping around a lot.

GMars said:
What is a support Pokemon? - The primary function of a support Pokemon should be to provide its teammates with Utility options such as Knock Off, Hazard Removal, Status, Hazards, Recovery, Set-up opportunities, or momentum in the form of free switches. In order to ensure that CAP27 maintains its role as a support, the ability to provide a team with some form(es) of utility should be at the forefront.
This seems to get lost in translation. Our abilities should all be focused on a support element as outlined here. Magic Guard notoriously enables highly offensive Life Orb sets, and Krilowatt and Clefable both tell this tale all too well. Something with STAB Flare Blitz, Outrage, Fire Blast, and Draco Meteor is just going to love launching those high-BP Moves with Life Orb, and that incentivizes greatly away from a support role.

Regenerator is less obnoxious although obviously Tornadus-T loves Regen healing + Life Orb backing its Hurricanes. The thing is, Regenerator gets its value upon switchout, which is great in neutral matchups or against extremely passive opponents like Toxapex and Ferrothorn. That said, it really doesn't do anything for you switching in, and lends itself heavily to hard-pivot moves, of which I suppose Parting Shot would count, but we already did that concept with Kerfuffle. Regenerator really doesn't help with Utility directly, but similar to Magic Guard is so versatile it can easily creep into other roles like Choice Attacker, for example.

I feel both if those abilities are overpowering, overly versatile distractions from focusing on the core concept of a support Pokemon. Once unleashed you just can't put them back in the bottle.

Poison Touch does properly fit in the support role, but I wonder just how much we want to inflict Regular Poison. It doesn't conflict with Fire Lash's effect, but do I really want Flare Blitz to be a 10% burn 30% poison attempt? I'd much rather burn a Terrakion switching in that Poison it, which would then preclude me from burning it later.

Contrast Serene Grace, where if I use nearly any common Poison-type attack it has a 60% chance of inducing Poison, and the aforementioned Flare Blitz a 20% chance of inflicting burn. I know which odds I'd rather play for as cool as 30% Poison Fire Lash and Dragon Claw are in theory. It's on-concept, I just don't think locking into regular poison as a primary attack effect is a desirable end consequence. Serene Grace seems superior for inflicting Poison, as well as every single other status.

I pause on Technician only to note that I personally would rather use a 60 BP, 60% paralysis Dragon Breath over a 90 BP, 30% paralysis Dragon Breath, because the higher para chance let's me use it as a true support move on any set rather than directly opposing Draco Meteor as my primary damaging attack.

Got nothing bad to say about Sticky Hold. The super-passive Knock Off mons can't break Subs on anything with even middling defenses with no or minimal investment. It enables not only HDB but also Rocky Helmet as a direct punishment to Knock Off SPAM. My favorite of the overtly defensive abilities. Heck, even with Nerfed recovery berries, since they can't be knocked off you can viably Recycle them.
 

Jho

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I just wanted to make a quick post on something I have seen a lot of both in this thread and in discord conversations and that is discounting pro concept abilities due to the fact that they are “too good” or “will inhibit us later”. This is something I have been pretty vocal against previously but I do not think we should be be using arguments such as these when arguing against abilities which are pro concept.

This is a very malleable concept which can be adapted to fit whichever direction we choose to take it - there is no need to limit ourselves early on for the possibility that it might effect something in the later stages.

Now this is not to say that we have to have one of the typically “stronger” abilities which fit our needs, I just believe when arguing against the likes of Regenerator, Magic Guard, and Corrosion etc. we should be arguing that it inhibits something we are trying to do, encourages sets which are anti concept, or that a different ability suits our needs better, rather than shrugging them off for being “generically good”.

That’s it thanks for coming to my TED talk where I used far more quotation marks than I would have liked to.
 
Magic Guard notoriously enables highly offensive Life Orb sets, and Krilowatt and Clefable both tell this tale all too well. Something with STAB Flare Blitz, Outrage, Fire Blast, and Draco Meteor is just going to love launching those high-BP Moves with Life Orb, and that incentivizes greatly away from a support role.
Genuinely not seeing the problem here. Encouraging Life Orb and using strong moves like Flare Blitz with impunity is not anti concept. And I'd argue it helps our concept. Offensive pressure is important for this concept and forcing switches, and allowing CAP27 to have strong spammable STABs is very good for us, as discussed in concept assessment and the typing stage. Plus encouraging life orb inherently discourages Band/Specs which a ton of people are super worried about. (not sure that regen encourages choice items either, like you've mentioned).

----

I mentioned it earlier, but I'd still like to advocate for Corrosion, as it greatly helps wear down fat mons, including the poison immune ones. Offensive teams often struggle with really fat mons like toxapex and I think it's a great way to provide support helping offensive teams muscle through.
 
This seems to get lost in translation. Our abilities should all be focused on a support element as outlined here. Magic Guard notoriously enables highly offensive Life Orb sets, and Krilowatt and Clefable both tell this tale all too well. Something with STAB Flare Blitz, Outrage, Fire Blast, and Draco Meteor is just going to love launching those high-BP Moves with Life Orb, and that incentivizes greatly away from a support role.
Remember that our concept isn't "support", but it's "offensive support". This means that CAP27 should be strong enough to force switches, which allows it to provide utility, while not acting as a breaker, ie being walled consistently by a couple of defensive Pokemon, and not ohkoing the bulky attackers. Two life orb boosted stabs and two utility slots seems pro-concept to me.

I think the problem we must ask ourselves while thinking about Magic Guard is how does it modify our threats list ?
For example we put Toxapex in Counters during the threats discussion. Does Toxapex counter Magic Guard CAP27 ? On one hand it has the capacity to cripple it (knock off), take advantage of it (tspikes), or even damage it (scald if 27 doesn't have recovery, which might be a wise choice if we go mguard) ; but on the other hand the threat isn't big enough to force CAP27 to switch at all. So it's Yes, as it will win 1v1, but No, as CAP27 can heavily take advantage of it without too much fear.
However looking at the rest of the Threats list it doesn't happen to heavily influence too many matchups. CAP27 will still be immediatly threatened by Knock off and super-effective attacks. Magic guard will remove the status and hazards weakness, which is huge, but definetly pro-concept. I can see a very good and interesting Pokemon come out of this idea. I'm not advocating particularly for Magic Guard, but it's a pro-concept idea.
 
I'm not advocating particularly for Magic Guard, but it's a pro-concept idea.
I agree with Atha on this one. Magic Guard is a pro concept ability. Magic Guard can improve the offensive outcap of 27 with recoilless LO (and potentially Flare Blitz) while giving it a lot of defensive utility. Imagine a potential hazard remover that doesn't take any damage from hazards. The main risk is that we don't want 27 to hit to hard or have good enough coverage that the best possible set for it to run is a Magic Guard wallbreaker. Because then instead of offensive team support we have wall breaker with potential team support options.

Though I should point out that Magic Guard does mitigate the fear of Knock Off because your Heavy Duty Boots (and then some) cant be removed due to being an ability.

While everyone is pitching potential abilities to work with, I have something I want to bring up. Should CAP 27's abilities be focused on quality or quantity? Hopefully, I can explain what my thought process behind this.

Option A: Quality

1 super good ability that we build around. The main examples I have been seeing are Magic Guard and Regenerator. These abilities do a lot for 27 and 99% of the time, will be seen as the go to ability. For example pre Pokémon Home, :Clefable: had 2 abilities, Magic Guard and Cute Charm. Magic Guard is such an versatile ability that does multiple things and Cute Charm is flavor so Clef always uses Magic Guard. Or :Dracovish: picking between Water Absorb and Strong Jaw. Water Absorb is not an inherently bad ability but Strong Jaw is so much better for what Draco aims to do.

Option B: Quantity
Give 27 2-3 good but not amazing abilities that provide different forms of support. For example, Sticky Hold, Rough Skin, and Poison Touch. None of these abilities on their own are superior to Magic Guard or Regenerator but they each provide a different form of team support. Kind of like how :Equilibra: picks between Bulletproof and Levitate, :Jumbao: with Trace or Drought, or Tomo with Intimidate and Prankster. These abilities shouldn't be superior to the super powerful ability for the sake of balance, but instead give players options in what kind of team support 27 needs to be for their team. Since Team Support comes in many forms, multiple equally viable abilities is a route I think should be considered.

EDIT: Option C: Quality+Quantity
Already got cbfer discussing with me about this so I need to formally address this possibility. What if we give 27 2 distinctly viable and super good abilities like Magic Guard and Regen? That is an route to go down, but I have some concerns with this approach. The main issue is that you get the best of both worlds. Super powerful and versatile abilities, but instead of having a single go to, there are 2. This can be balanced by stats and movepool, but I don't want movepool or stats super constrained by the combo of quantity+quality abilities.

Like Ive said in a previous post, the discussion and abilities brought up are great but there are multiple ways of approaching this concept. And when it comes to abilities, I think these are the 2 main routes we can go down. Thank you for reading, and feel free to disagree with my opinion.

ModEdit: Merged Double Post
 
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