CAP 27 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

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Quanyails

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CAP 27 So Far

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Please pay very close attention to GMars's posts during this thread and remain on topic. DO NOT begin by posting massive lists of abilities!

Some general rules for this discussion:
  • Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
  • There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.
  • Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning. Posts that rely on flavor reasoning will be deleted.
The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

Air Lock
Arena Trap
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Color Change
Dark Aura
Dauntless Shield
Defeatist
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise
Fairy Aura
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Fur Coat
Gorilla Tactics
Gulp Missile
Huge Power
Hunger Switch
Ice Face
Ice Scales
Illusion
Imposter
Intrepid Sword
Libero
Mimicry
Moody
Multitype
Neuroforce
Parental Bond
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor
Protean
Pure Power
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield
Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Slow Start
Soul Heart
Stance Change
Teravolt
Truant
Turboblaze
Victory Star
Water Bubble
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Beast Boost
Comatose
Drizzle
Drought
Electric Surge
Fluffy
Grassy Surge
Innards Out
Magic Bounce
Magic Guard
Misty Surge
Prankster
Psychic Surge
Punk Rock
Sand Spit
Sand Stream
Snow Warning
Speed Boost
Stamina
Steam Engine
Triage

Ball Fetch
Battery
Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Power Spot
Power of Alchemy
Propeller Tail
Receiver
Run Away
Stalwart
Symbiosis
Telepathy
 

GMars

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Welcome back to the ability section! Now that we have our stats, here's some questions to help us get started:

1) How would a secondary ability benefit CAP 27 and improve its capacity to act as an offensive support Pokemon?

2) What matchups should we look to improve through a secondary ability?

Please keep the secondary ability banlist in mind, and remember that the major requirement for a secondary ability is that it should not overshadow our primary ability, Regenerator.
 
the major requirement for a secondary ability is that it should not overshadow our primary ability, Regenerator.
Well I don't think we need to worry about that LMAO

1) How would a secondary ability benefit CAP 27 and improve its capacity to act as an offensive support Pokemon?

I think realistically most abilities will not see use over regenerator, so we'd need something with a niche that regenerator does not offer for it to even make any sort of impact. Most abilities that would help longevity/survivability just aren't as good as regenerator and would not see use (unless it was an immunity ability that altered some key matchups), so I think abilities that offer unique/more utility or more offensive abilities are the way to go.

2) What matchups should we look to improve through a secondary ability?

One mon we put on our switchin list that I think we struggle to really switch into is Zeraora, and I'm not really sure there are abilities that can improve that matchup enough for it to change. Even electric immunity abilities, whether it's volt absorb/motor drive don't really help because Zeraora can just not click plasmafists.

I think we could definitely improve the matchup against some of the fatter mons on our pressure list like clefable, mollux, krilowatt, etc, with an ability that helps with damage output, but if we go that route we have to be careful about it, and also keep in mind that regenerator does enable life orb use more freely.

All that said though I don't think we need to improve specific matchups, and no competitive ability is an option.
 
1) How would a secondary ability benefit CAP 27 and improve its capacity to act as an offensive support Pokemon?

2) What matchups should we look to improve through a secondary ability?
1) As Regenerator is already such a fantastic Defensive Ability, practically any other defensive options would struggle to have any niche outside of Type-Immunity ones (and those would create problems in how to check CAP 27, see Equilibra), offensive or support abilities have a better shot at actually helping CAP 27 and not being completely outclassed by our primary ability.

2) I really don't think there's any matchup we need to address here. Fat mons will struggle against us as long as we get a good movepool. Zeraora might deal a lot of damage with Close Combat, but it can't really tank our attacks, can't afford being burned, and even if CAP 27 takes severe damage, it shouldn't be too hard to regain health back with a few good switches.
 
1) How would a secondary ability benefit CAP 27 and improve its capacity to act as an offensive support Pokemon?
Regenerator is already is a strong defensive ability. It aids CAP27 in offensive capability by letting it shrug off entry hazards, weaker coverage moves and Life Orb Recoil at the cost of switching out. Most abilities we could give it outside of a few will not improve it in acting as a Pivot outside of an Immunity granting one, which could potentially overshadow it. Giving CAP 27 an Offensive Ability instead of a defensive one could be helpful as even if it isn't the chosen ability the mere ability it could run it could dissuade some Pokemon from carelessly switching in, letting it preform its supportive role. The secondary ability is not necessary but would be nice to give it options and some utility.

2) What matchups should we look to improve through a secondary ability?
I feel we are at a pretty good point with Matchups. Not much to say on this.
 
1) Regenerator is obviously a stellar ability, that will be hard to compliment, let alone overshadow with another ability.
To be used over Regenerator a secondary ability needs to distinguish itself heavily from Regen and the way it influences playstyle and still have good enough utility to be actually used. Else No competitive Ability for this stage would just be enough.
Regen is rather defensive in nature and helps with recovery while highly encouraging pivoting, so other abilities that help with recovery/damage or healing and enable pivoting will mostly be outclassed.

Other defensive abilities that enhance the defensive strength of cap 27 can still work along Regeneator.
Filter/Solid Rock, Thick fat and Multiscale, respectively immunity abilities have merits, that Regen will not be able to accomplish.
i don’t know if these abilities are pro concept or strong enough to be used over Regen but it might be something to look at.

I think offensive abilities are a stronger bet though for the second ability, since thy can give cap 27 tools to a different playstyle.
Stuff Like Poison Touch adaptability and tough claws could be something to look at.
Of course the latter two will have to be justifiable with the concept, especially in conjunction with our high attack stat and choice items, but at least I think they are something to consider/talk about.

2) I think having tools to help our team mate deal with fatter mons that are our switch ins could be something to look at.
 
I floated it a little bit in the discord as well, but I wanted to bring up No Guard as a possible unobtrusive ability that has a distinct niche over Regenerator without generally taking precedence.

1) How would a secondary ability benefit CAP 27 and improve its capacity to act as an offensive support Pokemon?

No Guard has clearly defined offensive and supportive capability, giving 27 a niche option to use high-power, low-accuracy moves it likely wouldn't touch otherwise. A straightforward example might be something like Fire Blast, which would allow it to nail more physically durable mons like Corviknight that would take longer to wear down if their special stats weren't being targeted.

No Guard has the nice benefit of also affecting status moves, some of which have shaky (or at least imperfect) accuracy, which would give 27 an edge for particular sets without making it completely desirable over Regenerator, which still represents a significant advantage over most other abilities, even competitive ones.

2) What matchups should we look to improve through a secondary ability?

I won't get too specific since there's obvious concerns like taking Stone Edge with No Guard, but it's worth noting Fire/Dragon ends up neutral to a lot of commonly-run high-power, low-accuracy STAB attacks; see Focus Blast, Hurricane, Blizzard, Hydro Pump, etc.
 

quziel

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I hyped this up during the initial ability thread, but I think its still quite applicable here, as we did end up going for a physical bias. Poison Touch is a cool ability for us that helps us transform certain losing matchups (Hippowdon, Gastrodon, Seismitoad) from a matchup that we lose into a matchup we lose but end up putting the mons into range for teammates. I should explain this a bit.

It means that several of our strongest checks in Hippowdon, Seismitoad, and Tomohawk have a chance to be inflicted with regular poison every time they come in on us, which means that Hippowdon is suddenly 2hko'd by a band CC from Terrakion, that Tomohawk is suddenly forced to chain roost vs Excadrill, that Seismitoad can no longer pretend to really check Excadrill. It takes these losing matchups against physical walls and means that we, as an offensive support, are able to use those losing matchups to support our teammates, in this case Terrakion and Excadrill (I could likely find more but those two are what I thought about first). Additionally, even if we do get the Poison first turn, we still arent' able to break through these Counters (as decided in the threats stage), doing 37.5 net to Hippowdon with a Blitz.

Because this ability accentuates our ability to support certain teammates, specifically transforms a losing matchup by letting our teammates pressure them, and doesn't conflict with what's already decided, I think its a great choice (even if its unlikely to get insane use due to how great regen is).

Edit:

I'd also like to mention Lightning Rod and Volt Absorb both of which help us to fulfill an important role that is sorta needed on any BO / Offense team; that of a Volt-Switch Blocker. It specifically targets matchups that we already win, thus not disrupting our chosen checks and counters and means that, for example, a Rotom-Heat suddenly cannot spam Volt Switch vs a team without a Ground type. Both of these abilities block Volt itself, so I don't really care about which one, but Volt Absorb is a bit more relevant to the design at hand cause it helps us stay healthy, and we aren't really a full special attacker. This also helps a tiny bit vs Zeraora, blocking PF, but its really about blocking Volt Switch (again, a very important role that a lot of teams need).
 
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Snafutari

Formerly NOC Unlucky 13
Welcome back to the ability section! Now that we have our stats, here's some questions to help us get started:

1) How would a secondary ability benefit CAP 27 and improve its capacity to act as an offensive support Pokemon?

2) What matchups should we look to improve through a secondary ability?

Please keep the secondary ability banlist in mind, and remember that the major requirement for a secondary ability is that it should not overshadow our primary ability, Regenerator.
1) I don't know if any ability can really do that, especially defensively. There's no real defensive ability remaining on the table that can really help with offensive support, leaving us with just offensive abilities. As far as offensive abilities go, there's not exactly a lot of support abilities. Technician might work, but there's not exactly a lot of good Technician boosted support moves that we are likely to get (about the only one I can think of is Dragon Tail, maybe Poison Fang). There's also Poison Touch/Serene Grace, although Serene Grace means we have to be really careful about what moves we give this thing (basically means we can't give it flinching moves in general), and Poison Touch might conflict with other status moves that we may or may not give it.

2) We could look to improve our matchup against Kerfluffle, although the only ability I can see doing so (Bulletproof) potentially leaves us open for a similar thing that happened with Equilibra, and likely wouldn't see any play over Regenerator anyway. Maybe Immunity would help against our matchup vs Mollux/Seismitoad/Toxapex, but, again, wouldn't see play over Regenerator. I suppose Guts would lead to similar results as Immunity, but it runs the risk of becoming a sweeper. Another ability from the first discussion, Multiscale, might be able to help against some of our problem matchups, but also wouldn't likely see play over Regenerator, though it could easily lead to this thing becoming a frustration wall.

Of course, as was already mentioned, no competitive ability is an option, and I don't really see any really good abilities that can be a good option for offensive support, except maybe Poison Touch.
 
How would a secondary ability benefit CAP 27 and improve its capacity to act as an offensive support Pokemon?
I believe as the others have said that a defensive ability, unless it is an immunity ability, will never be selected over Regenerator under any circumstances. There isn’t an immunity ability that would prove to be extremely useful with the exception of Levitate. I’m certain that’s a bad idea considering Equilibra, though. As such, I think our secondary ability should at least be somewhat offensive in nature. Poison Touch is a great example of an offensive ability that provides a distinct use from Regenerator, and is one that is highly worth considering. I will briefly say that No Competitive Ability is also a completely valid option to go with, but I do wanna explore what’s out there first.
 
1) How would a secondary ability benefit CAP 27 and improve its capacity to act as an offensive support Pokemon?

CAP27 is a support mon despite intention to have offensive abilities, and not a pure damage dealer, but has pure damage aspect. Regenerator is simple. It gives it plenty of opportunities to come in, provided it has the bulk to withstand damage after Stealth Rock or the like should it lose or not run Heavy Duty Boots: Life Orb is an option, of course, given Regen.

However, it makes it very largely one dimensional when it hits its counter: it gets rewarded for clicking out, doubly so if it has a Pivot Move, ranging from the offensive Uturn etc, to the defensive Teleport.

That said, I've slightly hinted at what I'm referring to with HDB: Sticky Hold. Sticky Hold with HDB largely does a similar thing to Regenerator. As these two benefit the same thing (repeated switch ins), there is little benefit to running Sticky Hold and Regenerator. They both support the same thing, so only one ability will be taken, meaning there is little point to either discussion.

To provide additional support for the team, an ability which supplements and encourages/punishes an opponent for not properly scouting is ideal. For this, Rough Skin, Gooey, or Flame Body is ideal. They potentially punish an opponent for clicking contact moves.

That said, I'm also a fan of Adaptability, meaning that there can be flexibility with EV spreads.

2) What matchups should we look to improve through a secondary ability?

The Stats are inherently physically aligned, both offensively and to a lesser extent, defensively, but the special offenses are not unusable, and there are some mon who are likely to be physically defensively minded as such switching in, such as Corviknight: an offensive boost in the special aspect might assist here: I've mentioned above the ones that I think assist most with this.
 
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1) How would a secondary ability benefit CAP 27 and improve its capacity to act as an offensive support Pokemon?
Mx is on the money. Most defensive abilities will fall flat compared to regenerator, so we need not consider them. In a general sense, something that complements our desire to be offensive or support is the way to go. My only real suggestion is Solar Power as CAP 27's typing naturally pairs with that of Jumbao so it would just emphasize it more, but other than that I'm more inclined to just say No Competitive Ability is better than trying to shoehorn something.

2) What matchups should we look to improve through a secondary ability?
There isn't really anything about our existing matchups that need to changed.
 
1) How would a secondary ability benefit CAP 27 and improve its capacity to act as an offensive support Pokemon?

Regenerator already covers CAP 27's ability to pivot in and out in a game, and increase its utility. We should thus also make sure the second ability increase CAP 27's ability to provide utility, but not in a way that Regenerator already does.

2) What matchups should we look to improve through a secondary ability?
We should look to improve matchups on some Pressures, and slightly improve matchups on our Checks and Counters.
 

snake_rattler

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1) How would a secondary ability benefit CAP 27 and improve its capacity to act as an offensive support Pokemon?
I actually don't think a secondary ability will improve CAP27's as an overall whole. We have a very strong statline (especially by SWSH standards), a very strong primary ability, and a very strong offensive typing already. I think now is the time we pass up a secondary ability and focus on CAP27's movesets, as there are some potentially strong moves we could give it access to that could be problematic with other abilities.

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to Poison Touch. Trading the ability to have reliable healing to annoy counters, especially now that we have a physical bias. It's important to note that Poison status doesn't necessarily mean that CAP27 can suddenly break through its toughest counters, but it does mean that CAP27's teammates could suddenly break into 2HKO range - which is definitely an offensive form of team support! Steel-types that would otherwise want to tank the poison status cannot deal with Fire-type STAB easily, and there are some really interesting physical moves that would work well with Poison Touch. Poison Touch is an offensively inclined ability that a) makes sense on CAP27 and b) doesn't necessarily break apart all of CAP27's counterplay as other offensive abilities would. I will also note that now that it's not CAP27's primary ability, now CAP27 users will not have to worry about accidentally poisoning a target that should be hit with another status (though I was never convinced by this line of reasoning).

For example, if Tomohawk loses Leftovers or is running Rocky Helmet and gets poisoned, Choice Band Terrakion could have a much easier time breaking open Tomohawk. Basically, the forced chip that normal poison forces in the short term is excellent for quick, offensively oriented teams.

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 92 Def Tomohawk: 160-190 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO after poison damage
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 92 Def Tomohawk: 160-190 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


I am firmly opposed to abilities that improve CAP27's prowess as special attacker, as we defined our physical bias in stat limits. The Special Attack stat, according to its submission post, is meant for luring physically defensive checks with STAB special moves, not to potentially create a special attacker. We don't need to stretch movepool to include good physical options, good utility options, AND special options that have mildly interesting interactions with CAP27's secondary ability. Let's focus on the physical movepool and utility options, as we have decided in previous stages. Keep our eyes on the prize, if you will. By this logic, No Guard and Serene Grace should be knocked out as options, which have some obvious interactions with special moves.

I'm also opposed to including an immunity ability as a secondary ability. CAP27 just doesn't need an immunity ability, especially because Regenerator doesn't have an activation message. Sure, it should be pretty easy to figure out whether or not CAP27 has Regenerator over the course of a battle, but I despise the idea of having to play mindgames early in battle to figure out if CAP27 will suddenly block a Volt Switch. In short, Electric-type immunities like Volt Absorb, Lightning Rod, and Motor Drive will unnecessarily increase the complexity of CAP27's counterplay.

Finally, anyone touting offensive abilities like Adaptability or defensive abilities like Filter, that really blanket a lot of attacks, would do well to actually motivate how these abilities aren't broken with CAP27's stat spread. Ideally, these abilities shouldn't unnecessarily complicate options during moveset discussion, too.

2) What matchups should we look to improve through a secondary ability?
Aside from our questionable matchup with Zeraora, which I believe has been a rather shaky switch-in this entire project, I think Regenerator fixes most of CAP27's issues. It's able to lose Heavy-Duty Boots without massive consequence, it's able to hit by Toxic and not instantly be crippled, it's able to tank weak attacks and heal those off...while CAP27 won't be able to be played too recklessly, smart play means that Regenerator is a sufficiently powerful ability. There aren't many matchups that are in dire need of fixing with a secondary ability.

Summary:
  • We should really be looking towards moveset discussion for the next degrees of complexity for CAP27
  • No Competitive Ability or Poison Touch are my only two favored options at the time of this post.
    • Poison Touch is an offensively-oriented ability that's not a straight power boost like Adaptability and provides utility that CAP27's teammates can take advantage of. CAP27 is also not forced to deal with status conflicts with Poison Touch and other potential status moves and if they don't want to, as it will be CAP27's secondary ability.
  • We shouldn't be trying to balloon CAP27's special offense with its secondary ability due to movepool considerations, so No Guard, Serene Grace, etc. should be discouraged.
  • Immunity abilities will unnecessarily increase the complexity of CAP27's counterplay, even if Regenerator is a better ability, so these shouldn't be considered either.
  • Abilities like Adaptability, Filter, etc. should be have sufficient justification that they're balanced with this stat spread.
  • I think Regenerator addresses CAP27's matchups well enough, already; there aren't any matchups that are in need of desperate fixes.
 
After doing some calcs for Adaptability, I think this ability will not be healthy with what we have right now and completely overshadow the support aspect of 27.
You could easily run Adamant as nature and full investment, still outrun most mons that can deal with u offensively like Excadrill, TTar, and the slower dragons And slap on a choice band, which gives you choice band Darmanitan power levels with a much better speed tier.
This is a ridiculous amount of power, which lets you 2hko TTar or even Tomohawk after intimidate with FLARE Blitz. The only three mons that are viable, which live 2 flare blitz off this spread are Seismitoad, Arghonaught and Pex.
And all of them die to two Outrage respectively dragon claw hits if u need to nuke them.

Once faster threats are dealt with 27 could just start spamming blitzes and sweep, even with softer checks still in play.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Turtonator Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 175-206 (51.3 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Turtonator Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 274-324 (84.8 - 100.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Turtonator Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 332-392 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Turtonator Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 194-230 (46.8 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Turtonator Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Turtonator Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- 16.4% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Turtonator Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 282-334 (68.1 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Turtonator Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 141-167 (34 - 40.3%) -- 44.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Turtonator Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 328-386 (79.2 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Turtonator Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 164-193 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

While tough claws is slightly less powerful I think CAP27 would tend into a similar direction with it, making a two move nuke out of 27. Even fire lash/dragon claw would still be enough probably to wreak havoc. Also Reckless should be included here since it gives flare blitz essentially the same boost.
 
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I already answered the questions in my last post, just wanted to mention my thoughts on some specific abilities.

One ability I mentioned on the Discord but never brought up in the primary ability as I felt there was better choices for that discussion was Steely Spirit. While I am still partial towards Serene Grace, Poison Touch or No Guard as they can provide utility (Serene Grace increases status chance notably with Poison Fang which becomes better toxic; Poison Touch gives a raw 30% chance to poison which combined with moves such as rapid spin, knock off and flare blitz is scary good; and No Guard gives moves 100% accuracy), Steely Spirit provides raw damage to our coverage and not the rest of our calcs with similar abilities such as Iron Fist, Tough Claws or Adaptability. Steel Coverage isn't the worst for our match ups either as it only provides us a winning matchup against Fairies and Ice types (now having super effective 'STAB') and gives us a simular relationship to dragons (being super effective to each other) with Rock types. Most notably it gives us a more consistent way of beating Clefable without being as suicidal. Regenerator would still be better on most variants and would incentivize fairies to not switch in carelessly until they learned with ability we were running.

252 Atk Life Orb Steely Spirit CAP27 Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 385-455 (97.7 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 289-341 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 257-304 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Steely Spirit CAP27 Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 296-350 (75.1 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk CAP27 Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk CAP27 Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

CAP27 is already in a good place with Regenerator so No Competitive Ability would be fine but boring. Other defensive options are completely overshadowed or mess with our calcs too much (i.e. Filter). Like I said giving CAP27 a second ability is not needed but could be fun to run and alternative or be nice to have options on certain builds.
 
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I looked at some offensive abilities and did some calcs. I think especially with the STAB combo we have adaptability is incredibly strong and I think steers us in a completely different direction from where we were going. Tough claws is in a similar situation, the damage boost it provides is barely weaker than the one provided by adaptability.

my calcs were very fruitful with this spicy calc:
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 399-469 (101.2 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With this in mind though, reckless isn't a route we should take either. You get a better damage boost from life orb and still get to keep some longevity with regenerator, so if you're running reckless you're also running a damage boosting item. It's not as crazy as adapt as it only increases the damage from one move, and the damage is less, but I think it's really just completely unnecessary here, and it's not what I'm looking for. I think reckless sets would almost exclusively use a choice band and one of the biggest reasons offensive abilities are appealing here is so they can generate more threat to let you click support moves, and I think a choice band is antithetical to that. killing clef is undeniably support tho :)

Looking back at the top contenders from ability 1 polls though, serene grace and poison touch do stand out, as they do both provide niches that regenerator doesn't. I think realistically we just don't have the stats for serene grace to work like we'd want it to, but I do think we've got the stats for poison touch. I think Poison Touch is just the kind of offensive niche I'm looking for, it doesn't increase raw damage output, but it does encourage a more offensive approach and I think that manages to keep us in line with our current direction. I do think especially since it is rng based, it'll still be pretty much completely overshadowed by regenerator, but I think the added element of a poison chance on attacking moves is a great thing for our concept and the threat 27 poses to opposing teams.

I'm also good with abilities like rough skin/flame body/volt absorb/motor drive to punish uturns or volt switches (snake brings up a really good point about the guessing games immunity abilities will cause though), but as I see it a lot of abilities are basically NCA compared to regenerator. That said, I'm perfectly fine with No Competitive Ability

tl;dr: Poison Touch and No Competitive Ability sound pretty good right now.
 
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1) How would a secondary ability benefit CAP 27 and improve its capacity to act as an offensive support Pokemon?

While it seems there is already a consensus between Poison Touch and No Competitive Ability as slate options, I find these both to be rather underwhelming. I think two abilities that have gone undiscussed are Defiant and Competitive. The former would be the stronger of the two options, given 27's higher physical attack, and Bisharp has proven that Defiant is an excellent way to support hazard-stacking hyper offensive teams by discouraging Defog. These teams may lack the defensive cores necessary to make full use of Regenerator on CAP 27, and might instead prefer the momentum provided by a Defiant or Competitive boost upon loss of hazards. While the latter ability would be a bit weaker, and there are currently no offensive mons that utilize it effectively in the metagame, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that Competitive could function effectively with 27's usable base 92 Special Attack and its similar mechanics to Defiant.

And while Poison Touch is a toothless RNG-based option that can neither be built around or played around to maximize its potential, Defiant and Competitive are options that encourage proper prediction and have effective counterplay. While Defiant would be a very strong ability option, similar to Regen, that would almost definitely see some use on hyper-offense teams, Competitive is a midground option in terms of the power level between Regenerator and Poison Touch, which I view as a very weak overall ability that would never be seriously run over Regen. Competitive would also encourage a different build (probably full SpAttack investment with Life Orb) and fit on a different team archetype (hyper-offense) than Regenerator, making it fairly obvious to the opponent whether 27 is running Regen or Competitive. This means it is unlikely to result in many 50/50 situations in which the opponent is forced to guess which ability CAP 27 has.
 
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1) How would a secondary ability benefit CAP 27 and improve its capacity to act as an offensive support Pokemon?
Since Regen paved the way as CAP27's primary ability, I believe that we should look for more offensively orientated abilities to avoid Regen competition and to open up a new niche for CAP27 that Regen doesn't allow.

Thinking on that, my favourite ones are Poison Touch and Defiant. Both of them enable CAP27 to play interesting other roles without overshadowing Regen. Poison Touch gives to contact moves a 30% chance of poison what is awesome if you imagine that CAP27 can run things like Fire Lash, Flare Blitz, Outrage, Dragon Claw, Knock Off and Rapid Spin. Defiant allows CAP27 to work as a Defog Punisher, which is essential for offensive team archetypes. Competitive would be another interesting option but 92 base SpA stat isn't much impressive.

I'm not a big fan of standard damage boosting abilities here but they still are possible options. Adaptability is a nuke hitting ability – specially when combined with the our Dragon/Fire stab coverage – and if we want prevent CAP27 to run full offensive sets this will be a really rough pick. Tough Claws is a more embracing ability with a lesser damage boost. Imo that is the most adequate boosting damage ability to go through. Reckless is virtually useless, unless someone wants to give to CAP27 other recoil moves beyond Flare Blitz.

Talking about the other options of the thread, No Guard and Serene Grace have the same issue that Competitive, as they impact mostly on special moves (besides SGrace Poison Fang and NoGuard Dragon Rush). Steely Spirit is a doubtful choice for me. While a pseudo-STAB Steel coverage would be very helpful in versus Fairy-types matchups, it doesn't add much beyond that.

Lastly, I think No Competitive Ability is a totally viable option and we could surely go on this.

2) What matchups should we look to improve through a secondary ability?
I'm quite satisfied with the CAP27's current matchups, so I don't have much to say here. Even so, would be interesting if we could somehow improve some Pressure matchups of CAP27.
 

MrDollSteak

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I don't have much to add in terms of suggestions, but want to echo that the proposed damage abilities, Adaptability, Tough Claws, Reckless and Steely Spirit are not appropriate for what we want to achieve. They would make Cap 27 far too strong. I also agree that Serene Grace and No Guard incentivize Sp. Atk too much. Our offensive lean was determined in stats, and circumventing it to make Sp. Atk more viable than what stats alone could manage isn't a good idea.

I personally believe that NCA is the best option for us. While I think that Poison Touch is inline powerlevel wise with where a secondary ability should be, and doesn't compete with Regenerator defensively, it's ultimately an ability that I don't think we need, and one that will be quite unfun to play against due to the rng aspect of the poison chance.
 
1) How would a secondary ability benefit CAP 27 and improve its capacity to act as an offensive support Pokemon?

I think Regenerator is already an amazing ability for support, so good that its hard for the secondary ability not to get overshadowed by it. That being said, two abilities that really strike me as being useful on this mon is Multiscale. The entire purpose of an offensive support is to break the other team's momentum, whether that be through status or stat drops Multiscale does that very well. Multiscale allows this mon to get atleast one utility move off on the other mon, which could completely change the momentum of the game, something that Regenerator can't really achieve. Multiscale also promotes offensive setup pressure, which I think is in line with this mon's intended direction in terms of competitive gameplay.

2) What matchups should we look to improve through a secondary ability?
I think the ability should focus on breaking moment and sweeper stoppage, and should be able to face threats like life orb clef and bulk up revenankh
 
remember that the major requirement for a secondary ability is that it should not overshadow our primary ability, Regenerator.
First off, overshadowing Regen would probably never happen unless something like Magic Guard was pitched (which I def don't want).
Second, the fact that the secondary ability cannot overshadow Regen is something I find really off. What is the big deal in having 2 abilities that compliment each other? Having another ability that doesn't overshadow per see but is equally viable would increase the versatility and fun factor of a CAP. Or in the ability discussion, instead of primary and secondary, pick 2 abilities instead of 1? This likely is due to my inexperience but I really don't like ability discussion works. But my opinions and ideas are usually ass.

Anyway tangent aside, time to pitch a "Secondary" ability. And once again, Im pitching neutralizing gas.

Just like in primary ability discussion, this ability is really really cool and can help in a number of matchups. Snael and Clef taking toxic dmg, Equil regaining a ground weakness while Scylant takes 50% from Rocks, among other examples really shines the viability of this ability.
 
Welcome back to the ability section! Now that we have our stats, here's some questions to help us get started:

1) How would a secondary ability benefit CAP 27 and improve its capacity to act as an offensive support Pokemon?

2) What matchups should we look to improve through a secondary ability?

Please keep the secondary ability banlist in mind, and remember that the major requirement for a secondary ability is that it should not overshadow our primary ability, Regenerator.
1)Honestly I don’t think anything is remotely close to overshadowing regenerator as a defensive ability. Poison heal could be an option in order to absorb toxic for the team but regenerator can do the same to some degree. Another ability that seemed interesting at first was long reach which could help against iron barbs and rocky helmet chip but regenerator does that as well.
 

Deck Knight

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1) How would a secondary ability benefit CAP 27 and improve its capacity to act as an offensive support Pokemon?

Regenerator is a crazy good ability, so I am not worried about it being overshadowed. This leaves two real mindsets:
a) Regenerator is sufficient for purpose, can't be improved upon, and is broadly useful in all circumstances.
b) Any secondary ability should offer something Regenerator cannot, generally in the mold of broad mechanic altering effects that assist offensive support.

This is not a long list of abilities, and none will generally match Regenerator's utility. Some examples:

Natural Cure: Natural Cure is to Status what Regenerator is to HP. An interesting note in combination is that you'll not know until CAP 27 switches in a 2nd time if it removed the status or got back HP.

Quick Feet: Flips status (Poison and Paralysis) on its head. Full Para is still annoying, but especially with our Speed tier this puts heavy pressure on previously faster Dragons. Nobody is going to run a Toxic Orb to activate this either.

Poison Touch: Mentioned in the primary ability thread, this alters so many useful utility moves by giving them a decently powerful additional status effect.

Serene Grace: Similarly mentioned in primary ability, now that we know we have acceptable base offenses for both stats, the boon to a more Special oriented set is much clearer. Though it should be mentioned Flare Blitz benefits as well, in addition to all Poison moves with a poison status chance. Serene Grace is not a "Special Attack only" boosting ability. It makes a multitude of physical attacks better as well. Flare Blitz with a 20% burn chance is scary (people forget Blitz has a burn chance too easily).


Intimidate: It actually took awhile for Intimidate Tomohawk to become more prevalent, and Cawmmodore always defaulted to Volt Absorb, but think of Intimidate as a Regenerator that gets paid forward against physical attacks. Loathe as I am to see another Intimidate CAP, it's inarguable that it flips the Zeraora matchup totally, as well as blunting any Non-STAB Knock-Off below Substitute breaking territory.

2) What matchups should we look to improve through a secondary ability?

It is difficult to improve any matchup over Regenerator given Regenerator's general utility. Intimidate does this vs Zeraora chiefly, but otherwise most other abilities are about fulfilling the concept via supporting potential move options more than being driven by specific matchups.
 
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GMars

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Hi everyone, thanks for the discussion so far. I'm gonna drop my thoughts, respond to a few lines, and hopefully provide a bit of direction going forward.

No Competitive Ability and Poison Touch have come out as frontrunners in the early discussion, and for good reason. CAP 27 has all the tools it needs right now to be a successful and cohesive product, and trying to give it another significant bump in power before the movepool stage risks unnecessarily complicating the CAP and potentially pushing otherwise key moves out of contention due to concerns over unwanted interactions with CAP 27's secondary.

A sentiment I greatly agree with is that any secondary ability chosen here should not be powerful. For this reason, I think one of the arguments surrounding Defiant isn't right given where we are with CAP 27:
While it seems there is already a consensus between Poison Touch and No Competitive Ability as slate options, I find these both to be rather underwhelming.
Finding abilities underwhelming is perfectly fine and almost ideal for this stage for our specific CAP, given the strong tools we've given it so far. If any secondary ability is chosen, it should only seek to hone in on a very specific matchup or very niche circumstances. Because of this, it would seem that Steely Spirit could make sense as an option (trading recovery to better threaten Clefable), though like with Defiant I share a concern that it would push CAP 27 a bit too far towards offense while straining the amount of utility that CAP 27 would actually be incentivized to provide.

Lightning Rod and/or Volt Absorb seem to be sensible choices that hit the targets of strengthening a niche while not being very strong on their own, letting CAP 27 apply additional pressure on Rotom and Zeraora in the very early game before it takes any chip damage (revealing its ability on the next switch in). I would again like to comment on one line of logic I've seen here that I disagree with.
Sure, it should be pretty easy to figure out whether or not CAP27 has Regenerator over the course of a battle, but I despise the idea of having to play mindgames early in battle to figure out if CAP27 will suddenly block a Volt Switch. In short, Electric-type immunities like Volt Absorb, Lightning Rod, and Motor Drive will unnecessarily increase the complexity of CAP27's counterplay.
These concerns seem to stem from parallels with Equilibra, where its counterplay is complex because the moves you would usually use to OHKO it could be blocked. This is not the case for what we have so far in this process. CAP 27 already resists Electric moves, so you're not looking at a situation between KOing CAP 27 or missing out and getting KOed yourself, the choice instead is between doing minor damage to it or getting blocked. In these circumstances, the shift in risk-reward from an Electric Immunity secondary is far less than with Bulletproof on Equilibra. These Electric Immunity abilities strengthen CAP 27's matchup against Rotoms and Zeraora by pressuring them away from mindlessly clicking Volt Switch in very early turns without straining any other matchups, and line up with what seems to be ideal for a secondary ability on CAP 27.

For Multiscale, this is another ability that I think would be very detrimental to give to CAP 27. Specifically, I disagree with this line of reasoning:
Multiscale also promotes offensive setup pressure, which I think is in line with this mon's intended direction in terms of competitive gameplay.
Offensive setup pressure is not in line with what we want CAP 27 to be doing. We don't want it to be the setup star, we want it to play a supporting role for another member of the team to allow that member to break through or have an easier time playing around in a game.

Going forward, if we want to have a competitive secondary ability, I feel it'd be best to focus on improving or enabling small niches. Deck Knight's post starts to hit on this well. Again, I'd also like to reiterate that No Competitive Ability is also a valid and likely good choice for this specific CAP.
 
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