CAP 27 - Part 8 Moveset Discussion

[99_Problems]

It’s important that Fire Lash only breaks through very specific defensive mons, even when paired with Flare Blitz. Only Tomohawk variants without Intimidate are threatened by the combo, and intimidate is pretty standard right now. Bulky water types are still a very good defensive answer to us in almost all situations, as are other common defensive mons such as Hippowdon (especially with grass and electric coverage disallowed).

A huge selling point of Fire Lash that should not be overlooked is the ability to maintain pressure matchups in not just Clefable, but Mollux as well. Lash into 2 Dragon Claws ko's the snail, as even minimum damage rolls do around 119%. We can still 3hko with Dragon Claw even without Fire Lash, but having Lash as our primary fire stab ensures Mollux can’t easily come in on the resisted hit. Considering how big both of these mons are in the meta, being able to keep them out should be a priority for us at this stage.

a few quick calcs

Hippo is a special case because of how threatening its stab is to us, but the situation that puts us in is trading mons in the best case scenario and just straight up dying in the worse case, and that's assuming Hippo even comes in on Lash and not something like DClaw.

252 Atk Reshiram Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 75-88 (17.8 - 20.9%)
252 Atk Reshiram Fire Lash vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 111-132 (26.4 - 31.4%)
252 Atk Reshiram Fire Lash vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 148-175 (35.2 - 41.6%)
252 Atk Reshiram Flare Blitz vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 220-261 (52.3 - 62.1%)

0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Reshiram: 306-360 (85.7 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after sandstorm damage

-1 252 Atk Reshiram Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 60-72 (14.4 - 17.3%)
-1 252 Atk Reshiram Fire Lash vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 90-106 (21.7 - 25.6%)
-1 252 Atk Reshiram Flare Blitz vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 178-210 (42.9 - 50.7%)

252 Atk Reshiram Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 67-79 (17 - 20%)
252 Atk Reshiram Dragon Claw vs. -1 252 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%)

I also want to say that access to Fire Lash doesn’t mean we can’t also have Flare Blitz in our arsenal. They’re both excellent moves in their own right, and more powerful than each other in different situations. I would expect to see both if Fire Lash is allowed.

 

[Mx]

Alright, here's my take on some of the proposed sets/moves:

Fire Lash: Pretty much since concept assessment, it was deemed important for CAP 27 to have strong and spammable STABs, and Fire Lash is probably the best single move to accomplish that, as it doesn't have the drawbacks to other possible options like Flare Blitz or Outrage. This move would be an amazing way to punish passive mons like Clefable and Mollux, two mons in our pressure list that we would otherwise have some issues beating. That being said, I understand why some people might be uncomfortable with CAP 27 having such a powerful tool at its disposal, as it raises our power level drastically. I think that this shouldn't be enough to break CAP 27 and this move would be a valuable asset, but I'd still like to keep a close eye on in how it interacts with the rest of out movepool.

Knock Off: In general I don't think giving coverage moves to CAP 27 is a good idea, but Knock Off is an obvious exception to this, as it's more of an utility move first and coverage second. Permanently removing items has proved to be a fantastic way to help teammates, without being particularly overwhelming. The worst that I'd say about this move is that it'd probably take priority over many niche support options we could be trying to use, but having some move that's a clear cut above the rest is always going to happen in practice, and we should still have one moveslot to fill with other useful utility moves.

Special sets in general: At face value, CAP 27 isn't a particularly remarkable Special Attacker, as its SpA is rather mediocre, we already know it won't have any particularly good coverage, and it can't easily break Clefable, the most common special wall in the meta. However, Clef would never try to blindly switch into CAP 27's physical sets (especially if we have Fire Lash at our disposal), and mons that might usually wall us like Arghonaut or Hippowdon would be 2HKOed with ease by Draco Meteor, so our opponent might have to guess our set or risk losing a mon. Admittedly, this is all speculation on my part, and special sets might end up on the pile of CAP memes alongside Specs Caribolt, but I think we shouldn't underestimate them, as they could become problematic with enough tools.

Taunt: Taunt is a pretty powerful stallbreaking move, which can deny the opponent the opportunity to use recovery, potentially allowing CAP 27 to win even against some of its hardest checks like Hippowdon if used perfectly. Despite that, the fact that Taunt requires a lot of skill to use effectively makes me think this should be a fine addition to our movepool. The only matchup I worry this move might tilt in our favor too much is against Toxapex, which won't be able to much to us after getting Taunted, but having a way to beat Pex might not even be a bad thing in the long run.

Toxic: In theory, this is a great move to cripple many of our checks. Past mons like Heatran and Smokomodo have already proven that Fire-types can abuse this move very effectively. However, I feel like this move is too good for CAP 27. Other moves like might cripple checks to some extent, but require at least some level of skill to fully take advantage of (Knock Off removes items, but you're still going to wear them down with something, Taunt can prevent healing or status but requires some prediction, and special attacking lures need their own specialized set), Toxic on the other hand is much more effective at wearing down walls, as most of them just won't be able to do their job after being poisoned. For this reason, I don't believe Toxic should be allowed.

Paralysis (Thunder Wave/Nuzzle): While Paralysis is another great way to accomplish our concept. I'm not really sure how effective this could be on practice, but I feel like, similarly to Toxic, Paralysis might be too good at crippling our checks, although I might change my mind later.

Finally, I'd like to encourage everyone to hop on the test server to play a few games with CAP 27. This is really the best tool available to understand our impact on the metagame and I think that because the success of this project is going to depend a lot on how our many possible sets interact with each other, testing these interactions is particularly important this time, as even if various sets might appear to be balanced in theory, their combination might end up not having enough counterplay in practice.

 

[Deck Knight]

One other thing to note on Tomohawk is that even Prankster Haze variants can remove the Defense drop from Fire Lash before Flare Blitz connects, and if Tomohawk also has Rocky Helmet then CAP27 is going to lose a ton of HP trying to break through it, as both Fire Lash and Flare Blitz are contact moves. Fire Lash is an amazing move for keeping up pressure, but it doesn't replace or surpass Flare Blitz. There are some sets where you need that massive smash only Blitz can provide, and some where you need Lash's weardown, and some where you actually need or at least want both.

I do think Dogfish44 had a point about some of the repetitiveness. Our current system is a vast improvement from the melee of disembodied move suggestions we had before implementing moves on sets as a format, but it does lead to some repetitiveness in set design.

In that light, I do think it's worth examining where sets would fall in terms of overall usability. Below is a short categorization effort to go over some of the move suggestions.

Tier 1 Support: These are moves that form very effective role compression or provide lasting benefits. These will definitely be considered parts of a primary competitive set if allowed:

Defog, Fire Lash, Knock Off, Lava Plume, Nuzzle, Rapid Spin, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Will-o-Wisp.


Generally speaking these moves compete with each other for a limited two slots beyond dual STAB, with Fire Lash being the only support move that might supplant a stronger STAB to allow three of these on a set. The nature of some of these moves inflicting permanent status means that they conflict to a certain degree, although "Double Powder" has been a staple set type since RBY.

Tier 2 Support: These are support techs added onto a set as a third and/or fourth move that would only compete with a primary set if the support were particularly metagame relevant.

Aromatherapy/ Heal Bell, Dragon Breath, Encore, Light Screen + Reflect, Taunt.

If I had to drop something from this list, it'd be Encore and the screens. Encore combined with Regenerator and our speed can easily allow us to lock opponents into attacks we soak up without consequence, and screens, while being a staple on hyper offense, can be just as effective in supporting other team types. 27 doesn't need extra options for their own sake.

 

[CoolMan6001]

So out of curiosity, I decided to see the damage this mon could deal with certain coverage moves:
(these sets assume that the set being ran is either full physical or full special, and that a speed boosting nature is used)

With Psychic coverage:
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb CAP27 Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 148-177 (48.6 - 58.2%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb CAP27 Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 148-177 (48.6 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Physical side appears to be fine. It appears to be able to take Toxapex on through the special side, although that's most likely due to this Toxapex being physically defensive. If it were specially defensive:

252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Being able to run Psychic coverage may be a negative for the long-term of metagame development.

Tomohawk takes it just fine:
-1 252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 112-133 (27 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 164-195 (39.6 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Psychic coverage makes using Terrakion much more dicey if Terrakion was not switched in safely:
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 231-273 (71.5 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and it kills if Terrakion switched into Flare Blitz:
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 121-144 (37.4 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Psychic coverage makes Arghonaut a dicey switchin: (Rocks makes it a statistical loss for the Arghonaut, while no rocks makes it a statistical win for it)
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Arghonaut: 195-231 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Arghonaut: 195-231 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Overall, Psychic coverage has quite some use for CAP27 to break past some of what would be considered its checks and counters, so perhaps disallow Psychic coverage over 65BP?

With Steel coverage:

It does not appear to be an issue regarding Sylveon:
252 SpA Life Orb CAP27 Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If it is wanted that this can take Clefable out easily, then Iron Head does the job if specially defensive:
252 Atk Life Orb Abomasnow Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 257-304 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It won't take it out if Clefable is physically defensive:
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Flash Cannon also doesn't kill a physically defensive Clefable:
252 SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

All other targets for Steel coverage are either weak to STABS, or were mentioned in the Psychic coverage section.

If it's decided that Clefable and Terrakion aren't important to let CAP27 kill, then Steel coverage could be allowed, but I might have missed some other factors that could go into this.

I'll look into more coverage later, but some calcs for now.

 

[MrPanda]

Moveset Submission

Name: Drop this sh*t OFF!!
Move 1: Fire Lash
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Knock Off
Move 4: Glare / Will-o-Wisp / Thunder Wave
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Speed
Nature: Jolly

• Fire Lash because 100% Defense drop is always helpful.
• Dragon Claw as secondary STAB.
• Knock Off to remove items and possibly cripple the enemy pokémon.
• WoW and TWave as a secondary utility option and to cripple the enemy pokémon even more.
• Boots to avoid hazards damage.
• 252 Atk EVs to maximize the damage output, 224 Spe EVs + Jolly nature to outspeed full invested 110 base Speed pokémon.

Just updating the set for the newest "disallowing" wave.

 

[Roland le preaux]

If I had to drop something from this list, it'd be Encore and the screens. Encore combined with Regenerator and our speed can easily allow us to lock opponents into attacks we soak up without consequence, and screens, while being a staple on hyper offense, can be just as effective in supporting other team types. 27 doesn't need extra options for their own sake.

Encore is really good on a regenerator mon with 114 speed, but it's not like it's Prankster boosted or anything. We can't encore mons into Dragon Dance or Rock Polish / Agility the way something like Whimsicott could. I don't know why you both put it on your "tier 2 support moves" list and made the case for it being too strong, as those things seem to be in conflict with each other. It's either strong enough to make the first list or it's not overpowered.

To me, it's definitely one of those status moves that's in the 'sweet spot' where its power level isn't as high as Spikes but it's strong enough to be run as a niche utility option. This is probably my last post on the matter, but I'm passionate about it because Encore seems, like Taunt, to be exactly the kind of move option we are looking for on this CAP. It's great as a balance breaking tool by locking walls and opposing supports, especially Clefable and Mollux, into their utility moves.

 

[Zephyri]

Lucario of Legends, I'd like to say that although I'm on the fence over whether Poison Coverage is a bad thing or not for this pokemon (leaning towards banning it), i do agree that the fact that it improves our Primarina matchup is a bad thing. That being said, i really do like Clear Smog as a support move for this pokemon, and i feel like it's something that the mon can utilize quite well, and it helps us improve our matchup against pokemon like Hawlucha and Kommo-O

On Steel coverage though, my opinion is stronger towards banning it. Steel coverage automatically and drastically improves our matchups against a lot of pokemon that are supposed to pressure or check us, most notably Terrakion, Clefable, and Kerfluffle, but also Stratagem and Sylveon. Iron Head is an fairly powerful move with little to no drawbacks

Some calcs:

252 Atk Turtonator Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Turtonator Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 216-256 (54.8 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Turtonator Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 168-198 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Athough Terrakion and Stratagem still have ways of beating us, they take a solid amount of damage when switching in which may be a problem if they are meant to check us.

 

[Reviloja753]

Encore is really good on a regenerator mon with 114 speed, but it's not like it's Prankster boosted or anything. We can't encore mons into Dragon Dance or Rock Polish / Agility the way something like Whimsicott could. I don't know why you would both put it on your "tier 2 support moves" list and made the case for it being too strong, as those things seem to be in conflict with each other. It's either strong enough to make the first list or it's not overpowered.

To me, it's definitely one of those status moves that's in the 'sweet spot' where its power level isn't as high as Spikes but it's strong enough to be run as a niche utility option. This is probably my last post on the matter, but I'm passionate about it because Encore seems, like Taunt, to be exactly the kind of move option we are looking for on this CAP. It's great as a balance breaking tool by locking walls and opposing supports, especially Clefable and Mollux, into their utility moves.

I hate to break it to you, but nothing runs the likes of Agility, Shift Gear, or Rock Polish in CAP. Also, anything that can raise its speed over the course of the battle with potential exception to DD Naviathan, either outspeeds us anyway, can kill us with a STAB regardless, is fried by our attacks before it’d even likely be able to set up, or some combination of the above. The only things that are likely to outspeed us that would make any difference is Zeraora as far as I know. Encore is just obnoxious to deal with and has no place on CAP27.

As a side note, why in the name of all that is holy is Sylveon being brought up in this discussion? It is completely outclassed as a Wish user by Clefable due to WishPort, has basically a negative Defense stat, and to my knowledge has no real reason to be brought up aside from trying to pad out any arguments related to Fairy-types. Also, if people are bringing it up out of an assumption Clefable is to be banned, then that is extremely irresponsible and not a way to go about determining what we should get. We build for now, not whatever hypothetical metagame may exist in three weeks.

EDIT: Encore is fine I'm just crazy ignore this post.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

Name: Ability Remover/Debuffer
Move 1: Fire Lash
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Knock Off
Move 3: Simple Beam
Move 4: Screech / Noble Roar
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Life Orb / Heavy Duty Boots /
EVs: 252 Att / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Some actually kind of works well. It is a decent Team Support move: it removes a very useful ability, although definitely supporting doubles more inherently.

However Simple Beam+ Screech or Fire Lash is rather nasty: the opponent may lose their ability and be -2 and Damaged or even -4, or their Switch In is at -2, presenting almost pseudotrap.

Noble Roar is a lesser version of Parting Shot, but works the same way if Eject Button is used especially if the target has been Simple Beamed on the switch. Bif combined with Pajantom or an Intimidator on the team, this can result in game changing moves.

Between Simple Beam, Fire Lash and Screech/Noble Roar, it causes a few momentum gathering opportunities on a Hard Switch and at worst CAP27 switches out to get Healing and tag in someone to make the most of the reduced Offenses/Defenses - indeed Pajantom's Trapping is one thing that CAP27 might fear, and I do not think that would appreciate potentially walking into a Predicted DClaw or Knock off.

 

[Deck Knight]

As a side note, why in the name of all that is holy is Sylveon being brought up in this discussion? It is completely outclassed as a Wish user by Clefable due to WishPort, has basically a negative Defense stat, and to my knowledge has no real reason to be brought up aside from trying to pad out any arguments related to Fairy-types. Also, if people are bringing it up out of an assumption Clefable is to be banned, then that is extremely irresponsible and not a way to go about determining what we should get. We build for now, not whatever hypothetical metagame may exist in three weeks.

Not that Sylveon competes with Clefable as a Wishpasser due to the WishPort set, but Sylveon has exactly 8 less base defense than Clefable and the same HP. It is more physically frail primarily due to not having Magic Guard. That said the set I run on one of my most recent teams (that I'm actually happy with) is Max HP/Max SpD Hyper Voice/Protect/Wish/Calm Mind. Special Attackers fail completely against it, even Nasty Plot users, and Hyper Voice after one CM boost hits very hard. It's not nearly as consistent a Wishpasser as Clef for obvious reasons, but it's a much stronger special wall/tank. 95/130 HP/SpD vs 95/90. The selection of a physical bias rendered the finer points of Sylveon vs Clefable on a team irrelevant, though. Clefable is a sturdier overall partner with WishPort, Sylveon is a more offensive core selection.


Roland le preaux I put Encore in Tier 2 because I don't think its something that you build a set entirely around like you would Rapid Spin, Knock Off, or Status. Encore is one of those tricky moves where 90% of the time it is useless, but the 10% of the time it is useful it completely stops your opponent in their tracks. It is very, very disruptive to navigate for that reason. In this particular instance, if 27 comes in on a 4x resisted move, Encore completely locks out the threat in the way that something like Taunt doesn't, and Regenerator will heal back all the damage. Encore makes balancing every other option more difficult because of this 90/10 split in opportunity.

Encore is also a little bit different than Taunt because it's wholly reactive, whereas Taunt can be used to pressure against switches. With Encore you usually have to catch something, then put it in a bind. With Taunt you can get a read on your opponent's options and decide you don't want any of their Pokemon using a status move next turn. I think Taunt would make it onto more sets and be more balanced for that reason, even though I put it in the same tier as Encore.

 

[CoolMan6001]

why in the name of all that is holy is Sylveon being brought up in this discussion?

Sylveon is listed here.

 

[G-Luke]

Is being obnoxious or annoying to face the actual argument against Encore? I'd argue paralysis is much more obnoxious to face, relying on RNG and is a permanent affliction, and yet still CAP 27 is all but guaranteed to gain a paralysis inflicting attack. encore fits right into what we want CAP 27 to do and the general direction several moveset submissions aim at - general disruption. As mentioned by Deck Knight, unlike Taunt or Thunder Wave, Encore isn't guaranteed to be useful throughout a match, and requires a lot more prediction. But to disagree with Deck, i think this is a lot more strategic than he gives credit for. On CAP 27, Thunder Wave is near spammable and requires little prediction, as the list of Pokemon that can switch in on Thunder Wave and switch in on CAP 27's STABs comfortably Hippowdon. That is it. I am not arguing Thunder Wave is too much for CAP 27, i am just mentioning this for perspective. Relying on Encore means you are always on the back seat, and you can usually only pull off the stunt once before revealed, and if you read your foe incorrectly, it may punish you just as badly. Therefore I disagree with rev and deck on their Encore stance, and think that it not only fits on CAP 27, but should be a mainstay on it.

 

[99_Problems]

View attachment 244225
Sylveon is listed here.

Important to note that that’s for special sets only, which will definitely be the exception rather than the rule with our heavy physical bias.

Is being obnoxious or annoying to face the actual argument against Encore? I'd argue paralysis is much more obnoxious to face, relying on RNG and is a permanent affliction, and yet still CAP 27 is all but guaranteed to gain a paralysis inflicting attack. encore fits right into what we want CAP 27 to do and the general direction several moveset submissions aim at - general disruption. As mentioned by Deck Knight, unlike Taunt or Thunder Wave, Encore isn't guaranteed to be useful throughout a match, and requires a lot more prediction. But to disagree with Deck, i think this is a lot more strategic than he gives credit for. On CAP 27, Thunder Wave is near spammable and requires little prediction, as the list of Pokemon that can switch in on Thunder Wave and switch in on CAP 27's STABs comfortably Hippowdon. That is it. I am not arguing Thunder Wave is too much for CAP 27, i am just mentioning this for perspective. Relying on Encore means you are always on the back seat, and you can usually only pull off the stunt once before revealed, and if you read your foe incorrectly, it may punish you just as badly. Therefore I disagree with rev and deck on their Encore stance, and think that it not only fits on CAP 27, but should be a mainstay on it.

I have to agree here. I don’t think Encore is obnoxious at all, and it’s a far cry from being anywhere near oppressive. It’s frustrating to play against when it’s used properly but you can say that about so many things in pokemon when used against you (including Taunt). The fact of the matter is that Encore is good in specific situations, but those situations require good prediction and strategy to exploit correctly, therefore turning the choice between Taunt and Encore into an important teambuilding choice. Deck’s 90/10 argument against Encore can honestly be used in favor of the move as well. The ability to capitalize on these opportunities in an unexpected way is undeniably pro-concept, and opens up new avenues of support for 27, even more so if Taunt is the more standard move.

I still stand by Encore as a way to stop setup sweepers that are slower than us (read: most of them) if we’re able to come in on a predicted setup. It also has many applications against more defensive mons that we want to beat, pressure, or simply have more options against (for that last category, think something like switching into a rocks use by Seismitoad or Hippo). The mind games that come with having access to both Taunt and Encore make dealing with 27 a lot less cut and dry than only having Taunt; sometimes being locked into a recovery move is just as bad as being unable to use that move due to Taunt. Similarly, Encore can generate a good amount of momentum if we are able to come in on a predicted Will-o-wisp or fire attack in a way that Taunt could never hope to. Taunt and Encore should both be allowed.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Hey Y'all, coming in to say that the Fire Lash poll will be happening in 24 Hours. Get your arguments out before then or forever hold your peace.

 

[Deck Knight]

RE: Encore

I'm going to also agree that being obnoxious has nothing to do with it and isn't a good argument. I will agree it takes a significant amount of skill to play, I'm just wary that on a Pokemon that can so quickly recover through some smart switches that it becomes a little too punishing. While Reuniclus does have both Encore and Regenerator, it's so abysmally slow it can never catch anything, and Encore doesn't fit on a Trick Room set. Whereas nearly any time a fat mon sets Stealth Rock (including what would otherwise counter CAP 27), 27 can swoop in and force them to switch out, then switch out for itself and get HP back. It would be particularly troublesome combined with hazard removal because you'd have a near guarantee to keep hazards them down. In some ways it means you need to overprepare for CAP 27 in the teambuilder, because if your defensive check gets locked into a support move you need a secondary check to tank a hit from it. If it comes down to it, I'd rather drop Encore than the hazard removal option.

With that in mind, here's what that set would look like:

Moveset Submission

Name: Encore Hazard Remover
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Encore
Move 3: Rapid Spin / Defog
Move 4: Fire Lash / Knock Off / Dragon Claw / Dragon Rush
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots

• Flare Blitz for powerful, consistent damage output.
• Encore is used whenever you can catch an opponent using a support move. With High speed and regenerator, any time you catch an opponent like this you get a free chance to heal or use an attack.
• Rapid Spin removes hazards on the free turns you generate from Encore. Regenerator and Heavy-Duty Boots allow you to come in consistently multiple times over the course of a match to remove them, and raises your speed so you can Encore any slow misplays. Defog removes hazards from both sides of the field, but also any screens your opponent has set up. The Evasion drop also makes them good targets for a follow-up from Dragon Rush.
• Fire Lash provides a STAB option that doesn't incur recoil and can wear Encore'd opponents down quickly if they don't switch, easily getting them into Flare Blitz range. Knock Off is a decently powerful hit while the opponent still has an item, but is essentially a free item removal on anything you Encore or they switch to afterward. Dragon Claw provides a consistent neutral hit without recoil. Dragon Rush should only be used with Defog, but provides a much stronger neutral hit than Dragon Claw.

My experience has been the raw power of Flare Blitz really is not negotiable on a set, but everything else is up for grabs. It's just a matter of which three options combine best. I would note that Defog on this set instead of Rapid Spin would be substantially weaker by removing your own hazards and would be completely balanced, and allow you to run Dragon Rush credibly. Your Encore'd opponent is stuck with -1 Evasion, Dragon Rush is free real estate at that point.

Test Server observations:

Replays:
https://github.com/DeckKnight/27Tes...en8CAP-2020-05-09-mxmts-deckknight Test1.html

https://github.com/DeckKnight/27Tes...en8CAP-2020-05-09-deckknight-mxmts Test2.html

https://github.com/DeckKnight/27Tes...8CAP-2020-05-09-deckknight-aetherl Test3.html

https://github.com/DeckKnight/27Tes...AP-2020-05-09-2spoopy4u-deckknight Test4.html

I've been playing on the Test Server and had a few games testing out a set of Flare Blitz/Dragon Claw/Rapid Spin/Fire Lash w/ HDB. The team also has a Pyroak on it because White Smoke Pyroak with Earth Power is an excellent switchin to punish over-reliance on Fire Lash. 27 tends to Knock Off its item and then fail to be able to overwhelm Synthesis, Leech Seed, or damage from Earth Power. I did download the games, but I don't know a good way to re-upload them so you can access them.

My observations are the following:

Fire Lash:

Fire Lash is an amazing pressure tool in and of itself, but it can't replace Flare Blitz. Instead, it works amazingly well in conjunction with Blitz. I've faced a fair few teams with WishPort Clefable and Equilibra, and the ability to threaten leaving Clefable too weak to attempt another WishPort by predicting the switch, Lashing it, and then threatening the KO with Flare Blitz. Fire Lash *can* straight 2HKO Equilibra, but more than likely it will get WishPorted into and be way too healthy to KO with Fire Lash, whereas Earth Power in return will OHKO. There was even one game with the ClefLibra core and an Intimidate Tomohawk. Clef came in after 27 was Intimidated into a Fire Lash. Then a Fire Lash crit KO'd Clefable before it could Teleport. Flare Blitz's recoil in these instances would not have been effective and would have worn 27 down too quickly. Fire Lash earns its spot, but it doesn't earn it to the exclusion of another move.

At the same time, Fire Lash can't snag enough KOs on its own. Many, many times over a battle I have needed the extra immediate power of Flare Blitz after a Fire Lash to get a KO. Needing two slots and good prediction to snag those KOs is perfectly balanced. That it also works effectively against one of the most annoying aspects of the metagame is to its credit.

Fire Lash allows CAP 27 to be a very efficient cleaner. 27 is entirely incapable of sweeping teams, but it does a decent job weakening the opposing team all game, and against a very weakened team Fire Lash is an option that keeps up constant pressure on potential switches, and allows 27 to do credible damage without recoil. It was especially useful in conjunction with Rapid Spin, as at +1 Speed it outruns Zeraora and most Dragon-type Scarfers, and this kept many of them away from switching in. In multiple games both the hazard removal and the speed increase function flipped momentum on the opponent.

Non-Fire Lash related observations:

White Smoke Pyroak proved to be a great switchin to Fire Lash. With 4 SpA investment, Earth Power always scores a 2HKO on HDB CAP 27. It's very shaky while Stealth Rock is down, but otherwise forces CAP 27 out. For that reason I also want to disallow flying and rock coverage over 60 BP. Fire Lash is so effective against Clefable that Poison coverage isn't necessary, and probably won't find a place on a set except to mess with otherwise good counterplay. The other coverages just seem like dangerous lures to me on a Pokemon that is not supposed to be an all-out-attacker.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Aside from that, I think its time to critique some sets.

Moveset Submission

Name: Wisp and (H)Wish
Move 1: Will-O-Wisp
Move 2: Flare Blitz
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Healing Wish
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Will-O-Wisp is a great support move in line with the goals we’ve set up for CAP 27: chipping the opponent, improving CAP 27’s own physical bulk, reducing physical damage for CAP 27’s teammates, and hindering switch-ins without letting CAP 27 beat them 1-on-1.
• Flare Blitz is a solid STAB move that, when paired with Life Orb, allows CAP 27 to apply significant offensive pressure, forcing in resists that often dislike burn.
• Dragon Claw pairs well with Flare Blitz and Will-O-Wisp by smacking dragons like Hydreigon, Dragapult, and Pajantom that could take a wisp (and a blitz) rather well.
• Healing Wish finishes off CAP 27’s support side, letting it sacrifice itself for momentum after chipping and crippling the foes through attacks and wisps to either give a teammate an easy setup opportunity or simply get a partner in and back online to continue breaking through the opposing team.
• A Jolly nature was chosen to take advantage of CAP 27’s great Speed tier, as successful use of Healing Wish often relies on investing into a decent Speed stat (like Latias and Jirachi have done in the past). Jolly in particular lets CAP 27 stay ahead of Terrakion for an emergency wisp and max Speed Krilowatt should CAP 27 need to use Healing Wish against it.

I think this set is very similar to a lot of sets we have seen in thread, and in general it is a great set. Will-O-Wisp creates that large support element harmful burns to spread and further complemented by the supportive option of Healing Wish if you need to pass some health to a teammate. I think this is a rock solid foundation for CAP27, and there are no big issues about the set both structurally and from what I have seen from an ICC point of view. I would like to approve this set.

Moveset Submission

Name: Mixed Attacker
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Draco Meteor
Move 3: Will-O-Wisp / Healing Wish
Move 4: Taunt
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 12 Atk / 240 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Hasty

• Flare Blitz in combination with Life Orb, 12 Atk EVs and Timid nature allows us to always 2 hit KO specially defensive Leftovers Clefable that doesn't run/click Protect, however running Hasty can achieve that, though running Hasty will weaken our matchup against some physical attackers.
• Draco Meteor is our main offensive move, and when paired with Regenerator, means that we'd often like to click Draco Meteor, followed by getting out of there to heal back up.
• Will-O-Wisp can be utilized to help cripple physical attackers on the opponents side, as well as help us wear down problematic enemies, without the risk of weakening ourselves with our attacking moves.
• Healing Wish works as a last ditch effort, sacrificing ourselves to bring a weakened teammate back as well as cure status, allowing us to help turn the tide of battle if necessary.
• Taunt will help us shut down defensive pokemon as well as set-up sweepers, and will be our main way to tackle some of our checks and counters that would otherwise shrug off our hits.
• The EV spread is a slightly modified 252 / 252 / 4 spread, putting 12 SpA into Atk to help our Flare Blitz damage as mentioned above. While it is possible to run a set of 12 Atk / 244 SpA / 252 Spe, I found out that 4 SpD helps ensure that we live 4 Scalds from a toxapex, although it is already unlikely we'll faint from 4, it gives us a better chance to help beat/weaken toxapex if they stay in, as we can shut down recovers with Taunt and then spam Draco Meteor (Calcs found below).
• An alternative EV spread is 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe with a Hasty nature to maximize special attack, while also being able to 2 hit KO specially defensive Leftovers Clefable after a Protect.

Moveset Submission #1

Name: Specially Offensive Lure
Move 1: Draco Meteor
Move 2: Fire Blast
Move 3: Dragon Pulse / Flamethrower
Move 4: Taunt / Encore
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

• Draco Meteor is a powerful STAB move that OHKOs most bulky dragons with Life Orb and enables us to break through physically defensive Seismitoad and Unaware Arghonaut.
• Fire Blast melts the Steel-types that resist Dragon moves, as well as hitting Grass-types like Jumbao and Bug-types like Aurumoth very hard. It can also break some physical walls such as Hippowdon.
• Dragon Pulse and Flamethrower are weaker but more reliable alternatives to the first 2 moves, dealing consistent damage that can pick off fragile or weakened foes.
• Taunt is a support move with wide distribution that has found incredible support on Discord, letting us temporarily shut down passive mons like Clefable as well as setup sweepers and hazard setters.
• Encore is a move that could be a viable, if niche, alternative to Taunt. It is a particularly effective way to shut down bulky wincons like Calm Mind Clefable who can potentially break us with Moonblast after only a single turn of setup. Given our decent speed tier, I think it is a healthy utility option for us to have, even if it would not be run often.
• Regenerator is our only viable ability option, and it will help offset Life Orb recoil.
• Life Orb is necessary to supplement our unimpressive base 92 Special Attack stat, and it enables important 2HKOs on the physically-defensive walls we are seeking to lure in and break through.
• Timid is nearly mandatory as it allows CAP 27 to outpace Pajantom, Krilowatt, and Terrakion.
• This is the obligatory special option for CAP 27. I figured we should get it out of the way early. There are no real surprises here, just some basic STAB moves we are presumed to get. It is consistent with the intent of the winning stat submission by MrDollSteak.

I feel like these two sets are generally trying to do the same thing with suprising people with a special attack, specifically Draco Meteor and then keep elements of the support aspect of it. The former much closer keeps to the quo of physical with Flare Blitz and support moves, while the latter goes whole ham into the special side of thing. In general both of these don't really bring too much new to the table move wise and I have a very hard time justifying approving both, so I would just like a decision from the both of you as to which set you would like to get approved specifically.

Moveset Submission #2

Name: Warrior Cleric
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Knock Off
Move 4: Heal Bell
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Flare Blitz is our strongest STAB move, taking out many of the Steel- and Grass-types that we want to check, such as Corviknight and Jumbao.
• Dragon Claw hits the Dragon types that resist Flare Blitz for supereffective damage, as well as hitting other Fire resists decently hard.
• Knock Off is a supportive move that provides incredible utility against mons that can comfortably deal with our STAB combination.
• Heal Bell could potentially make us one of the only decent clerics in the metagame, and it would also allow us to pivot more comfortably around mons that may be carrying Toxic, such as Toxapex and Arghonaut.
• Regenerator is our only viable ability option, and it will help offset Flare Blitz recoil.
• Heavy Duty Boots will let us ignore hazard damage and provide the longevity necessary to get off a clutch Heal Bell.
• Jolly is nearly mandatory as it allows CAP 27 to outpace Pajantom, Krilowatt, and Terrakion.

Moveset Submission

Name: Offensive Cleric
Move 1: Aromatherapy
Move 2: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash
Move 3: Dragon Claw / Knock Off
Move 4: Will-o-wisp / Knock Off / Taunt
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252atk/4def/252spe
Nature: Jolly

• Aromatherapy lets us provide valuable status healing to our team, capitalizing on our offensive momentum and longevity to utilize a traditionally more defensive move.
• Dual physical stabs allow us to hit hard and generate the offensive pressure necessary to set hazards. Dragon Claw is our only real usable physical damage option here, as we never want to be locked into such an exploitable move that lacks real notable KOs for us. The choice of fire stab really comes down to preference, with Flare Blitz hitting hard right off the bat at the cost of recoil damage and Fire Lash allowing us to beat some defensive mons we otherwise wouldn't be able to muscle through.
• Will-o-wisp allows us to spread status of our own, crippling physical attackers.
• Knock Off can be run over either of the last two moves to heavily disrupt opponents, giving us a powerful option against things that wall us. Taunt is another option to mess with defensive and utility mons.

These two sets are the best summaries of Aromatherapy for CAP27, which hopes to capitalize on clerical abilities. I was initially really skeptical about Heal Bell/Aromatherapy, as I thought it would be tough to find a spot on a set, but after some talking I agreed that it was a really good support option for balance teams who hate Toxic. I think in the long haul Fire Lash would be the better Fire STAB, as to not degrade your ability to come in and take hits through recoil. Flare Blitz is far less of an issue thanks to Regenerator but as a clerical set I think that Fire Lash may be better for sustainability. The latter set I think is a bit too cluttered slash wise, but otherwise I think these are...fine?. I recommend working together on these two sets to combine them into a more solid clerical unit, for which I would be happy to check it again.

Moveset Submission

Name: Frog Catcher (Sun Support)
Move 1: Fire Lash / Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Solar Beam
Move 4: Healing Wish / Will-o-Wisp
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 236 Atk / 20 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Naive

• Fire Lash is the weaker move here, but because of its lack of recoil and for its team support, it is preferred here. It also helps that the sun can make it as strong as a Flare Blitz outside of it.
• Flare Blitz is the stronger Fire-type STAB, but also the riskiest due to recoil. It obviously pairs very well with Regenerator, but if put on a sun core with Darmanitan, you'd probably be better off using some other Fire-type move.
• Dragon Claw is used to bypass the typical sun resists that sun can otherwise lose to or struggle with, such as Pajantom, Kyurem, or Nasty Plot Hydreigon.
• Solar Beam is the main attraction to this set, getting a guaranteed OHKO on Seismitoad and doing a lot to the five Gastrodon still around.
• Healing Wish is one of the best supporting moves we could give CAP27, as it not only helps the team out greatly, but also gives CAP27 a unique niche in being the fastest Pokemon in the game with access to Healing Wish asides from Choice Scarf Jirachi, which runs Trick on that set anyways. If there is any support move CAP27 should utilize, it's this one. In terms of what it does on a sun core or the like, it easily can use Healing Wish to restore Jumbao back to full for more sunlight or Darmanitan back to full to nuke some more holes into teams.
• Will-o-Wisp provides a different kind of support, weakening physical attackers such as Terrakion and Zeraora for team members to handle. It is worth noting that Solar Beam can 2HKO Terrakion, but as Terrakion can OHKO CAP27, your best chance against it would be to burn it and switch out, or simply burn and pray it misses Stone Edge.
• EVs and nature are to guarantee Solar Beam OHKOs Seismitoad while being as physically strong and fast as possible. Alternatively, one could run 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe investment, switching Dragon Claw for Draco Meteor, but it becomes much harder to kill Pokemon like Clefable with that EV spread.
• HDB are run because HDB is great for this Pokemon no questions asked.

Honestly this is probably the best lure set since people probably will be expecting Draco but not really Solar Beam, so it makes it good to use against Seismitoad. Seismitoad for CAP27 is a weird matchup but its always a good move to get it out since teammates exist. I am very cool with this set overall, since it implies a very fringe use of the move (required for Sun). Obviously Fire Lash is still a variable, so I am going to wait for that poll to go through before giving the clear, just in case some things need to change on it.

Moveset Submission

Name: Drop this sh*t OFF!!
Move 1: Fire Lash
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Knock Off
Move 4: Glare / Will-o-Wisp / Thunder Wave
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Speed
Nature: Jolly

• Fire Lash because 100% Defense drop is always helpful.
• Dragon Claw as secondary STAB.
• Knock Off to remove items and possibly cripple the enemy pokémon.
• Glare, WoW and TWave as a secondary utility option and to cripple the enemy pokémon even more.
• Boots to avoid hazards damage.
• 252 Atk EVs to maximize the damage output, 224 Spe EVs + Jolly nature to outspeed full invested 110 base Speed pokémon.

Overall this set is fine and kinda standard so I don't have too much reason to bring it up (aside from removing Glare pls do that) but I think the subject of paralysis needs to be brought up in general since Toxic is looking towards getting the shaft. Question for everyone: Do we think CAP27 should get access to Paralyzing Moves?

Moveset submission

Name: Offensive Balance Breaker

Move 1: Taunt
Move 2: Knock Off
Move 3: Fire Lash
Move 4: Clear Smog/ Will-O-Wisp/ Thunder Wave
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 speed/ 200 Atk/ 56 HP

-Fire Lash as its go-to stab move, that cripples physical walls and disturbs balance
-Knock Off to cripple pokemon that are heavily reliant on items
-Taunt to cripple walls and defensive utility based mons like Clefable or Toxapex
-Poison Jab/ Will-O-Wisp/ Thunder Wave to spread status, with the bonus of Poison Jab being weak coverage for fairies
-HD Boots to minimize chip damage, as this mon will be switching in and out a lot

All that's really changed from last time is swapping out Poison Jab for Clear Smog. First, change your descriptions to reflect the change. Second, I think Clear Smog is probably...fine? Its kind of just a move there if we want it, but I see very little reason to actually approve it as a required move.

Moveset Submission

Name: AV Green Mage (Special Status Inducer)
Move 1: Knock Off
Move 2: Fire Blast
Move 3: Draco Meteor
Move 4: Lava Plume / Dragon Breath / Nuzzle
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 72 HP / 96 SpA / 88 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

• Knock Off removes the item of opposing Pokemon, especially useful against Life Orb Special Attackers.
• Fire Blast provides a powerful special STAB option that can 2HKO Corviknight and OHKO Ferrothorn, Jumbao, and Caribolt.
• Draco Meteor keeps other Dragons away and does great neutral damage.
• Lava Plume is more consistent Fire STAB with a high burn chance, Dragon Breath can still 2HKO Pokemon like Dracovish and Dragapult, but also has a high paralysis chance generally which can cripple other fast threats. It can also safely paralyze Ground types that might switch in. Nuzzle provides 100% paralysis compatible with Assault Vest and minimal damage output, but doesn't hit Ground types.

Obviously paralysis is going to be discussed in general, but my general for this set is "why?" Nuzzle seems like an out there suggestion and AV a way to justify it. So my question to you is this: what reasoning is there for CAP27 to pursue an Assault Vest set, and what does achieve for our concept?

Name: Encore Hazard Remover
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Encore
Move 3: Rapid Spin / Defog
Move 4: Fire Lash / Knock Off / Dragon Claw / Dragon Rush
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots

• Flare Blitz for powerful, consistent damage output.
• Encore is used whenever you can catch an opponent using a support move. With High speed and regenerator, any time you catch an opponent like this you get a free chance to heal or use an attack.
• Rapid Spin removes hazards on the free turns you generate from Encore. Regenerator and Heavy-Duty Boots allow you to come in consistently multiple times over the course of a match to remove them, and raises your speed so you can Encore any slow misplays.
• Fire Lash provides a STAB option that doesn't incur recoil and can wear Encore'd opponents down quickly if they don't switch, easily getting them into Flare Blitz range. Knock Off is a decently powerful hit while the opponent still has an item, but is essentially a free item removal on anything you Encore or they switch to afterward. Dragon Claw provides a consistent neutral hit without recoil.

This is technically a set about Encore but the "Hazard Removal" part I need to address. Rapid Spin, even if we don't have greatest matchups against the setters directly, is still an essential part of competitive play and the role of removing them would be incredible for CAP27. Many people have shared their distaste towards Rapid Spin and hazard removal in general, stating that it is both a route that they are uninterested in pursuing for CAP, and that its inclusion would absolutely dominate sets, offering very little reason not to run it, constraining other support options to one slot even more. There has also been the argument that Defog would be an acceptable addition since it is worse than Rapid Spin, but the fact is that hazard removal is still hazard removal and hazard removal is still something every team wants. Rapid Spin and Defog are disallowed.

That's all for now, but I certainly have more to come.

 

[Deck Knight]

Obviously paralysis is going to be discussed in general, but my general for this set is "why?" Nuzzle seems like an out there suggestion and AV a way to justify it. So my question to you is this: what reasoning is there for CAP27 to pursue an Assault Vest set, and what does achieve for our concept?

Now that we have a clearer picture of our allowed support options, I want to answer this and the paralysis question at the same time. Throughout this process, CAP27 has been compared to various Pokemon, but one of its main analogues has been Tornadus-T. Tornadus-T had Assault Vest as one of its options for a set. It was originally used as a mainline set in XY and never as popular in SM or ORAS because of Z-Cystals. Unlike Tornadus-T, we're precluded from pivoting moves, but the purpose of the set remains the same: Applying offensive pressure to Special Attackers. As a metagame. CAP has added several fearsome special attackers, Volkraken, Stratagem, Jumbao, and Equilibra being good examples, though even Plasmanta and Mollux both exceed 130 SpA. Fire/Dragon is excellent at sponging most Special Attacks, and would provide a good check or even better to each of these Pokemon. Each of these Pokemon (bar Manta which is immune) hate Paralysis, or in the case of Jumbao and Equilibra, want to stay far away from powerful Fire STAB.

Here's what the set would look like:

Name: AV Warlock (Physical AV Support)
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Fire Lash
Move 3: Nuzzle
Move 4: Bulldoze / Brick Break / Dragon Claw
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 72 HP / 96 Atk / 88 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Flare Blitz provides a powerful, consistent STAB option.
• Fire Lash is the primary chip option on the set, able to disrupt switchins before hard switching out.
• Nuzzle's paralysis cripples the large number of fast, hard-hitting special attackers in CAP like Scarf Volkraken, Hydreigon, and Dragapult. This also makes Nuzzle an excellent chip option to catch opponents by surprise. Paralysis interferes with many support sets like WishPort Clefable and stall-oriented threats that rely on recovery moves to stay healthy.
• Bulldoze provides additional speed control and eases the matchup with Mollux, Plasmanta, and Volkraken. Brick Break removes screens from DualScreen hyper offense teams, and eases the matchup with Stratagem. Dragon Claw is a solid, reliable neutral hit.

What sets AV apart is it can switch in effectively on many of these attackers, or failing that win a neutral exchange that other sets would lose against, like HDB vs Equilibra at 100%. The original way to play the Tornadus-T AV set in XY was to chip away with U-turn and Knock Off, and a similar concept exists here with Fire Lash and Nuzzle. There isn't really a question as to whether an AV set will arise, it's just what it will look like and what options it should have. In the absence of pivoting, I think a reliable paralysis tech with nominal damage can bring out the full potential of a Pokemon looking to provide offensive support. I think the AV Set answers the question of when CAP would actually use its miscellaneous allowed matchup enhancers, and I think AV would be that set because it can most afford to stay in to utilize the niche offensive option without resulting in an immediate trade.

There's one other disruptive element of Paralysis, and that's if you can catch a Snaelstrom or Naviathan before their status orbs activate. Naviathan still gets the power boost, but its speed is completely tanked. Paralysis is also, barring Sleep, the only status Clefable truly cares about for interfering with its WishPort reliability.

 

[G-Luke]

was looking forward to specific critiques on my suggested sets as well

 

[Yay61]

I’m not necessarily opposed to paralysis support, but I don’t see the value of adding moves purely for a potential av set. Tornadus stopped running assault vest in gen 7 not because of z moves but because Defog was too valuable of a support move to give up. Add heavy duty boots into the mix and I can’t see what could be gained from assault vest. A simple set of just fire lash and dragon claw beats clefable, Dragapult and hydreigon which nullifies the need for nuzzle for these pokemon, and any ground type is free to switchin to such a set. I cannot see the benefit of an assault vest set as it just makes cap27 more predictable and easy to counter while the special defense boost isn’t significant enough to grant it any more opportunities.

As for thunder wave, I don’t think it would have too much of a negative impact. Paralysis support is obviously an effective way to support slower teammates and assists with cap27’s own power, but few key targets would actually switch-in anyway, and plenty of ground types would be able to absorb it. The only ones that might take it like terrakion are equally affected by wisp. Despite this, I think thunder wave has the potential to be a very frustrating move and especially in the presence of other constricting moves like fire lash, wisp and encore I think adding another layer of support with its own counterplay could make facing cap27 overly reliant on guessing games. For this reason I‘m leaning towards disallowing thunder wave if these other potent options are still on the table as it will do more harm than good.

 

[CoolMan6001]

Important to note that that’s for special sets only, which will definitely be the exception rather than the rule with our heavy physical bias.

Yep. That is why I was only calcing the damage to a Sylveon on the special side, (and it appears that special Steel coverage is not a problem yet) and Iron Head was mostly brought up for what it could do to Clefable. Psychic coverage is also something to look towards being against, as it may* allow CAP27 to be more offensive to its counter than what may be acceptable, as seen in an earlier post of mine:

So out of curiosity, I decided to see the damage this mon could deal with certain coverage moves:
(these sets assume that the set being ran is either full physical or full special, and that a speed boosting nature is used)

With Psychic coverage:
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb CAP27 Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 148-177 (48.6 - 58.2%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb CAP27 Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 148-177 (48.6 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Physical side appears to be fine. It appears to be able to take Toxapex on through the special side, although that's most likely due to this Toxapex being physically defensive. If it were specially defensive:

252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Being able to run Psychic coverage may be a negative for the long-term of metagame development.

Tomohawk takes it just fine:
-1 252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 112-133 (27 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 164-195 (39.6 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Psychic coverage makes using Terrakion much more dicey if Terrakion was not switched in safely:
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 231-273 (71.5 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and it kills if Terrakion switched into Flare Blitz:
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 121-144 (37.4 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Psychic coverage makes Arghonaut a dicey switchin: (Rocks makes it a statistical loss for the Arghonaut, while no rocks makes it a statistical win for it)
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Arghonaut: 195-231 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Arghonaut: 195-231 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Overall, Psychic coverage has quite some use for CAP27 to break past some of what would be considered its checks and counters, so perhaps disallow Psychic coverage over 65BP?

With Steel coverage:

It does not appear to be an issue regarding Sylveon:
252 SpA Life Orb CAP27 Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If it is wanted that this can take Clefable out easily, then Iron Head does the job if specially defensive:
252 Atk Life Orb Abomasnow Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 257-304 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It won't take it out if Clefable is physically defensive:
252 Atk Life Orb CAP27 Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Flash Cannon also doesn't kill a physically defensive Clefable:
252 SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

All other targets for Steel coverage are either weak to STABS, or were mentioned in the Psychic coverage section.

If it's decided that Clefable and Terrakion aren't important to let CAP27 kill, then Steel coverage could be allowed, but I might have missed some other factors that could go into this.

But yeah, good to note that Sylveon only applies to the special sets.

 

[Gross Sweep]

I've been reading through this thread, and I am honestly a little concerned. I feel we are being a little trigger happy when it comes to banning certain moves. We are building a mon that is supposed to be "Offensive Support", but I'm not exactly sure what we're doing to accomplish this goal. We are a decently bulky mon with good speed, that has all the makings of a strong choice in the metagame when you also factor in our great offensive typing and our ability being one of the best in the game. All that said I'm not exactly sure what we're doing in actual games as the move set stage develops. This is just my opinion but when I think of offensive support role compression is something that comes to mind for me, and we flat out don't do that at this point.

I would love an explanation on this, since I'm really not seeing our effective niche in the metagame. Or more can someone explain to me why CAP 27 would be chosen for a team, outside of people just really wanting to use 27.

I am a little perplexed of our role as we're a mon that wont contribute to hazard control, but at the same time we have no ability to set up or grab momentum by way of VoltTurn. I look at 27, and think about how much more useful it would be if actually contributed something helpful to a team aside from Knock Off or the ability to click status move which is a very over saturated niche that isn't special at all. We're a mon with regen and average bulk so we can come in on mons our typing allows us to resist/be neutral against if our opponent is more defensive, but then what. We throw off a Knock Off or a Toxic? Even when it came to paralysis we shut down Glare which would at least be more helpful when it comes to statusing mons. Aside from getting the Para on ground types, it's 100% accurate which is big. I would even take Nuzzle over Twave, as it's just the better option in my eyes. I just get stuck at our end goal when we're not even a seemingly great Knock/Status spreader (or at least I don't see the need for one, when tons of other mons can fit these). We can't even pull a Torn (the other solid offensive regen mon) and U-turn allowing us to keep momentum up while staying healthy. We either have to double or get off a Knock then switch. Even if we Fire Lash we are then forced to hard switch into our offensive breaker that's supposed to take advantage of the drop which seems bad to me. Leaving me to believe we're going to be taking advantage of the drop ourselves. Which brings me to another point, which is we seem to be scared of all kinds of set up fearing we wont be a "support" mon anymore, but we try and find anyway possible to break without clicking SD. We have Taunt and Encore sets being thrown around, with a Taunt set even having the title of balance breaker. Is there an actual reason we can Fire Lash into Taunt, but not SD on the switch? Is it to be creative? Is it because we really want Fire Lash and want to outlaw anything that might break it? The ladder is cool with me, can we just be open about what we're doing.

Another topic I wanted to discuss was the complete lack of replays. We have a sim where you can use 27, but nobody has actually supplied a replay, or as I like to call it: Evidence, showing why their argument is valid. As a collective we are throwing around opinions that are all just theorymonned about whether or not specific moves will be broken or not. Honestly I don't think we need discussion on whether or not something is healthy or not at this point, we need to see replays (good quality games). We are incredibly fortunate to have amazing contributors in our community that allow us to test this mon and make sure it actually works before we complete this phase, so why not use it to the best of our abilities. Mini rant aside I'm just looking for some actual direction, on why people are actually going to want to use 27. Since if we're support we shouldn't be the focal point, we should be an addition that helps further the goal of a team...and I don't see us being that mon.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I've been reading through this thread, and I am honestly a little concerned. I feel we are being a little trigger happy when it comes to banning certain moves. We are building a mon that is supposed to be "Offensive Support", but I'm not exactly sure what we're doing to accomplish this goal. We are a decently bulky mon with good speed, that has all the makings of a strong choice in the metagame when you also factor in our great offensive typing and our ability being one of the best in the game. All that said I'm not exactly sure what we're doing in actual games as the move set stage develops. This is just my opinion but when I think of offensive support role compression is something that comes to mind for me, and we flat out don't do that at this point.

I would love an explanation on this, since I'm really not seeing our effective niche in the metagame. Or more can someone explain to me why CAP 27 would be chosen for a team, outside of people just really wanting to use 27.

I am a little perplexed of our role as we're a mon that wont contribute to hazard control, but at the same time we have no ability to set up or grab momentum by way of VoltTurn. I look at 27, and think about how much more useful it would be if actually contributed something helpful to a team aside from Knock Off or the ability to click status move which is a very over saturated niche that isn't special at all. We're a mon with regen and average bulk so we can come in on mons our typing allows us to resist/be neutral against if our opponent is more defensive, but then what. We throw off a Knock Off or a Toxic? Even when it came to paralysis we shut down Glare which would at least be more helpful when it comes to statusing mons. Aside from getting the Para on ground types, it's 100% accurate which is big. I would even take Nuzzle over Twave, as it's just the better option in my eyes. I just get stuck at our end goal when we're not even a seemingly great Knock/Status spreader (or at least I don't see the need for one, when tons of other mons can fit these). We can't even pull a Torn (the other solid offensive regen mon) and U-turn allowing us to keep momentum up while staying healthy. We either have to double or get off a Knock then switch. Even if we Fire Lash we are then forced to hard switch into our offensive breaker that's supposed to take advantage of the drop which seems bad to me. Leaving me to believe we're going to be taking advantage of the drop ourselves. Which brings me to another point, which is we seem to be scared of all kinds of set up fearing we wont be a "support" mon anymore, but we try and find anyway possible to break without clicking SD. We have Taunt and Encore sets being thrown around, with a Taunt set even having the title of balance breaker. Is there an actual reason we can Fire Lash into Taunt, but not SD on the switch? Is it to be creative? Is it because we really want Fire Lash and want to outlaw anything that might break it? The ladder is cool with me, can we just be open about what we're doing.

Another topic I wanted to discuss was the complete lack of replays. We have a sim where you can use 27, but nobody has actually supplied a replay, or as I like to call it: Evidence, showing why their argument is valid. As a collective we are throwing around opinions that are all just theorymonned about whether or not specific moves will be broken or not. Honestly I don't think we need discussion on whether or not something is healthy or not at this point, we need to see replays (good quality games). We are incredibly fortunate to have amazing contributors in our community that allow us to test this mon and make sure it actually works before we complete this phase, so why not use it to the best of our abilities. Mini rant aside I'm just looking for some actual direction, on why people are actually going to want to use 27. Since if we're support we shouldn't be the focal point, we should be an addition that helps further the goal of a team...and I don't see us being that mon.

I just want to echo some of Gross Sweep's concerns. Now that we have ruled out all forms of hazard setting and control, as well as Wish, and are at the point of banning Fire lash, it's becoming difficult to see what support we are actually bringing to teams. As of now the only serious approved support moves are Knock Off, Aromatherapy, Taunt and some form of Status (even then this being severely limited too), all of which apart from Aromatherapy are already quite common. In this regard, it seems that the main reason to use CAP 27 will be to break things with its Stab neutral coverage, of which Fire Lash is premium, and has the possibility to support other physical attackers. I ultimately think that banning Fire Lash will be a big mistake as it will further compromise what CAP 27 is actually bringing to a team in terms of "support". CAP 27 is a pokemon that naturally forces switches and should capitalise upon them with support moves, but at this stage all that it can really do to punish switchins is to hit them with status or remove their item.

I also just want to voice that I think the argument "it hogs moveslots" used against hazard removal and other options is not a particularly valid one. The current support moves we have already force eachother out. Knock Off will basically be ubiquitous, and the final fourth slot likely going to another Stab or Taunt. Does this mean we should remove Knock Off because it's the best support option and will make sets? I dont think that we should be afraid of having a "best" support option, because there will always be a best move. However, I think that our approach so far has caused this problem to be exacerbated. If we had a wide move pool, teams could more easily customise CAP 27 to suit its needs, but at this stage CAP 27 has so little in the way of support options I think that it is actually far more likely to not only have only one viable set, but for it to be one dimensional.

 

[Roland le preaux]

I just want to echo some of Gross Sweep's concerns. Now that we have ruled out all forms of hazard setting and control, as well as Wish, and are at the point of banning Fire lash, it's becoming difficult to see what support we are actually bringing to teams. As of now the only serious approved support moves are Knock Off, Aromatherapy, Taunt and some form of Status (even then this being severely limited too), all of which apart from Aromatherapy are already quite common. In this regard, it seems that the main reason to use CAP 27 will be to break things with its Stab neutral coverage, of which Fire Lash is premium, and has the possibility to support other physical attackers. I ultimately think that banning Fire Lash will be a big mistake as it will further compromise what CAP 27 is actually bringing to a team in terms of "support". CAP 27 is a pokemon that naturally forces switches and should capitalise upon them with support moves, but at this stage all that it can really do to punish switchins is to hit them with status or remove their item.

I also just want to voice that I think the argument "it hogs moveslots" used against hazard removal and other options is not a particularly valid one. The current support moves we have already force eachother out. Knock Off will basically be ubiquitous, and the final fourth slot likely going to another Stab or Taunt. Does this mean we should remove Knock Off because it's the best support option and will make sets? I dont think that we should be afraid of having a "best" support option, because there will always be a best move. However, I think that our approach so far has caused this problem to be exacerbated. If we had a wide move pool, teams could more easily customise CAP 27 to suit its needs, but at this stage CAP 27 has so little in the way of support options I think that it is actually far more likely to not only have only one viable set, but for it to be one dimensional.

I agree with some of these concerns. It is one of the reasons why I was heavily considering Defog as an option, which I still believe is an entirely weaker alternative to Rapid Spin based on the mechanical differences and the ability of 27 to easily pressure all relevant spinblockers. Looking forward, I am more inclined to support Nuzzle than to oppose it. At least it's 100% accurate and can break Focus Sash. And finally, I think options like Toxic and Poison Fang may be pro-concept if status-spreading is meant to be one of our niches. We shouldn't outright ban them without discussing them further.

Non-Fire Lash related observations:

White Smoke Pyroak proved to be a great switchin to Fire Lash. With 4 SpA investment, Earth Power always scores a 2HKO on HDB CAP 27. It's very shaky while Stealth Rock is down, but otherwise forces CAP 27 out. For that reason I also want to disallow flying and rock coverage over 60 BP. Fire Lash is so effective against Clefable that Poison coverage isn't necessary, and probably won't find a place on a set except to mess with otherwise good counterplay. The other coverages just seem like dangerous lures to me on a Pokemon that is not supposed to be an all-out-attacker.

I'm actually ok with disallowing Rock and Flying coverage >60 BP. Pyroak is a weak physical wall that needs all the help it can get, and if White Smoke lets it wall 27 then we should encourage that as a niche answer. I like when new CAPs bring diversity to the meta.

ModEdit: Removing a continuation of a Flavour-based argument which has no place in this thread.

 

[Madsi6]

After a bit of thinking, I'll be pulling out my mixed attacker in favour for Roland le preaux special attacking set, as I believe it can bring more to the table while supporting similar options, and with GMars's wisp/hwish set being approved, mine doesn't bring anything to the table that roland's doesn't, except increase our matchup on the physical side, something which can be done manually once CAP27 releases, should people wish to, so I see no reason to keep mine :)

 

[Jho]

Yo,
Just dropping in to speak to some concerns that have been bought up and seemingly resonated with a lot of the community as multiple people in the CAP discord, as well as people reaching out to me separately talking about them. These concerns are summarized pretty nicely in Gross Sweep 's post, namely: people arent sure what we are going to do as a lot of our Support Options have been removed. Due to the fact that there has been a lot of support and discussion following this post, I want to unban Wish, as well as Rapid Spin and Defog.

However, this comes with a caveat that if you post a set with any of these moves, it must be accompanied with at leat 1 (more would be better) replay logs from Quanyails 's test server, which can be accessed here. Even though they are unbanned now, LucarioOfLegends may still ban them / not approve sets featuring them going forward if they still believe them to be too much. The point of this is to increase discussion and increase people's understanding of our role by getting in test games. So please, get in some games on the test server and make posts about these moves! Feel free to ask for games in the cap discord in #cap!

how to save replays from the test server

Saving replays
taken from the roomintro of the test server

• Select "Download replay"
• Upload your replay to file sharing site that supports HTML embeds
• Paste the link to your replay in the CAP forum

also stay tuned for the fire lash poll!