CAP 28 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

[Quanyails]

CAP 28 So Far

-----

In this stage, we will try to analyze which Pokemon sets could threaten or be threatened by us. Based on our typing and concept we will also decide which specific threats we should focus on later stages, and which ones should be mostly left alone. Then, the Topic Leader will organize them into a list, following this basic format:

• Switch in: The list of Pokemon on which we should be able to have a easy time switching in and then forcing them out, more than once in a game. This doesn't mean that we should be able to come into any of their moves, just their most commonly used ones.
• Pressure: The list of Pokemon that might threaten us, but should not be able to switch in easily. They should not be able to check us easily.
• Checks and Counters: The list of Pokemon should, in some way, threaten us. This might mean that they will probably be able to beat us 1v1, or at least severely cripple us. Certain Pokemon, in particular Revenge Killers might be included both in here and in Pressure, because once they switch in, they should be able to check us.

This threatlist should serve as a guideline for the rest of the project. However, this is not set in stone, and might change later if the Topic Leadership Team deems it necessary.

The following is a set of questions that we should try to answer during this discussion:

• Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the CAP metagame will be able to comfortably give this project trouble?
• What Pokemon will be major threats to this project right off the bat?
• What Pokemon have the potential to become counters?
• What Pokemon may end up as threats, but must be contained or dealt with per the concept?
• Will the concept succeed with this list of threats?
• Is this list of threats acceptable for the project?
• What Pokemon will be threatened by the CAP based off of typing?
• Are these Pokemon targets that we want CAP to hit?
• Will these targets be "unavoidable" to threaten based solely on the typing?
• What direction must the project go in now that a set list of basic threats has been identified?
• What must be done in order to make these threats "wanted counters" or these threats be eliminated from counter discussion?
• Are there any Pokemon that we want to completely counter?

No individual post has to answer every question.

Guidelines:

1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.​

2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if a particular argument is poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.​

3) Refer to Pokemon by specific sets. This way we can clearly identify which specific sets we should be focusing on, and what specific characteristics makes us threaten or threatened by them. Adding complete movesets, EV spreads and Natures is recommended, but not mandatory.​

4) Assume that Stealth Rock in on both sides of the field, unless otherwise specified. This can be changed by the Topic Leader during the discussion.​

4) This are the exact definitions of check and counter that we will be working with:​

​

-Pokémon A checks a Pokémon B set if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into that Pokémon B set, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.​

-Pokémon A counters a Pokémon B set if Pokémon A can manually switch into that Pokémon B set, and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.​

​

 

[Mx]

Alight, now that we know our typing, it's time we start talking about how exactly out threatlist should look like. For this project I'm planning on following the standard provided on the OP (Switch-ins, Pressure, and Checks/Counters). To begin, let's start with our switch-ins. Here's two questions as warm-up:

• Against which Pokemon sets should CAP 28 be able to switch in for free by virtue of its typing?
• Are there any Pokemon sets that we should consider adding to our switch-in list due to our concept?

For this thread please try to always talk about specific sets, as there are many Pokemon that might need very different approaches depending on their moves. It's not the same trying to deal with Knock Off Toxapex or Haze Toxapex, Zeraora might consider using Play Rough, and Tomohawk might change between Heat Wave or Aura Sphere, etc.)

As usual, I'm aiming to close this thread in 7 days, although we might finish earlier if it doesn't seem like there much left to discuss.

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

So we have a Bug/Dragon on our hands. Which is a one of a kind funky typing to work with.
There goes my dreams of electric/fighting. Oh well.

• Against which Pokemon sets should CAP 28 be able to switch in for free by virtue of its typing?
• Are there any Pokemon sets that we should consider adding due to our concept?

1) By virtue of Bug/Dragon typing we resist the following types: Ground, Grass, Fighting, Electric, and water.
This means we can switch in on the Slows (and sexs) Scalds, Equals EP, Volt Switches (yay), Zera plasma fist, I guess Tomo Aura Sphere, Amoongus Giga Drain, Urshi Close Combat, Jumbo solar Beam, and Rilla moves (except Knock Off). Alas, we get shanked by Clef...but the final types were all weak to fairy so thats not a big deal.

2) is a tricky matchup. Its speed will basically guarantee an ability to threaten with Play Rough.
can poison stall us and while we resist scald, it resists bug.

idk how to address this point actually. Would like to get other peoples opinion first.

 

[Mx]

1) By virtue of Bug/Dragon typing we resist the following types: Ground, Grass, Fighting, Electric, and water.
This means we can switch in on the Slows (and sexs) Scalds, Equals EP, Volt Switches (yay), Zera plasma fist, I guess Tomo Aura Sphere, Amoongus Giga Drain, Urshi Close Combat, Jumbo solar Beam, and Rilla moves (except Knock Off). Alas, we get shanked by Clef...but the final types were all weak to fairy so thats not a big deal.

While the listing moves we resist can be useful, individual moves are not important for this stage, as our objective is to understand on which Pokemon we can switch in, not just their individual attacks. Sure, in theory we can switch into Tomohawk's Aura Sphere or Zeraora's Plasma Fist, but they are also very likely to use Hurricane or Knock Off, moves that we really can't afford to take, so they'd be really out of place in our switch in list.

Also, please refrain from mentioning Clefable or any other unreleased mon for that matter. CAP 28 should be built for the current metagame, so these mons have no place in our discussion.

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

While the listing moves we resist can be useful, individual moves are not important for this stage, as our objective is to understand on which Pokemon we can switch in, not just their individual attacks. Sure, in theory we can switch into Tomohawk's Aura Sphere or Zeraora's Plasma Fist, but they are also very likely to use Hurricane or Knock Off, moves that we really can't afford to take, so they'd be really out of place in our switch in list.

Ahh I see. I misunderstood the questions you framed. My idea is what Pokemon moves we resist and switch in on in gen.
I still think Slows are solid switch ins, the worst is them setting up a future sight or a scald burn which is kind of what the concept is meant to address.

 

[NumberCruncher]

• Against which Pokemon sets should CAP 28 be able to switch in for free by virtue of its typing?

Honestly, not as much as you would think. Our chief good match-ups are the Brothers Slow, Tangrowth, Amoongus, Hippowdon, Urishifu-Water, and all pivoting Zeraora. This distinction is pretty relevant on Zeraora, because Plasma, CC, and Knock are all incredibly necessary on the pivot set, so that set doesn't actually have room for Play Rough without removing Volt Switch, which is it's main pivoting tool.

Of these mons, the only moves we really need to be afraid of are Spore and Sleep Powder from Amoongus and Tangrowth respectively. Sleep clause helps out in this regard though, and we can even try to burn sleep turns while we're in, because these mons otherwise don't really put up much of a fight.

Hippo could also theoretically run Stone Edge for CAP, but Stone Edge Hippo is so laughably bad this Gen that I wouldn't even consider that a real set.

• Are there any Pokemon sets that we should consider adding to our switch-in list due to our concept?

Blissey would be the obvious choice, since it doesn't really punish switch-ins all that much and it concept assessment seemed to imply that we want to hard-counter that.

Urishifu-Dark is actually interesting, since it likes running Choice items and we actually resist a number of its moves. If we can scout its move, we probably can come in on its Choiced sets.

Other than that, this typing seems far better at checking mons than coming in for the counter, so having a leaner, more focused counters list is probably for the better.

 

[Dogfish44]

Against which Pokemon sets should CAP 28 be able to switch in for free by virtue of its typing?

I actually disagree with NumberCruncher above - the answer isn't "not as many as you would think", but rather "as many as you would expect from such a mediocre defensive typing - which is to say, approaching zero".

That is actually fairly serious - I seriously struggling to think of any mons we want to switch into - anyone who voted for it, I'd love to know what you want to switch into with it! Because whilst there's a lot of decent resistances there... there's very little actually usable.

Water Resist means notionally the Slowbros are safe to switch into - though Scald will be going against typings that excluding certain railroading are substantially more physically inclined. Hippowdon feels like a safe enough switch in as well, arguably the safest we have, as does Blissey (switching into Blissey is a game of having enough HP to not be fussed by Seismic Toss).

I think Knock Off is highly threatening to us, as we are going to be weak to Stealth Rock, and thus I think it's reasonable to think we're likely running HDB (unless we're going in a hyper-offensive direction where we're less fussed by repeatedly switching in/out from the outset).

Are there any Pokemon sets that we should consider adding to our switch-in list due to our concept?

I'd like to lock in the Slows, even if I think our typing fails to make that currently feasible without fairly heavy railroading on stat bias, as breaking them was the justification behind... I'm gonna say pretty much all of the typings. On a similar note I'd also like to say we should be confident against any Mandibuzz that isn't using Brave Bird or Knock Off (which essentially means 'reasonably safe against Foul Play Mandibuzz' I guess)

 

[Pipotchi]

Sorry that Im not mentioning sets here, Im considering the very standard sets for all. to clarify Im thinking of both Baneful and Toxic Pex sets, HDB Zera, either seed or band Rilla and either mono-duo STAB fidgit.

• Against which Pokemon sets should CAP 28 be able to switch in for free by virtue of its typing?

Definitely: Slowking, Slowbro, Rotom-Wash, Hippowdon, Blissey
While these mons can sometimes inflict status, they almost never carry anything to hit us unresisted immediately.

Maybe: Zeraora, Rillaboom, Ferrothorn, Fidgit, Excadrill, Arghonaut, Toxapex, Mandibuzz
These pokemon carry knock off, or can threaten with an unresisted STAB that it sometimes forgoes.

Ive bolded some Pokemon that despite not threatening us on the switch, they are potentially bulky enough or resist all of our STABs and might beat us regardless. Whats more, the underlined pokemon can pivot on us as we switch in.

• Are there any Pokemon sets that we should consider adding to our switch-in list due to our concept?

So because of our reliance on item and generally average STAB combo/wonky resists, the list of mons we can come in on is incredibly small. There also isnt a single Pokemon on the list that is reliable to switch in on. However, Im going to suggest not adding anything else to our list. What I think we should be doing instead of shoring up defenses to allow a bunch of neutral switchins and pulling us out of the offensive landscape and into the grey zone that CAP often falls into, lets focus on upping our immediate power as well as striking those bolded mons off the list as guaranteed beats. I think the best way to tackle this concept is not to make it more generic to give more switchins (feels like a death sentence for an average typing) but instead making it great at doing the small unique things that its typing offers. Aka the route Smokomodo accidentally went down.

 

[Galvanatic]

• Against which Pokemon sets should CAP 28 be able to switch in for free by virtue of its typing?

We need to comfortably switch into three big Regen pivots in Amoonguss and the Slow brothers. Status is big but there are many ways to address it later. We can also switch into Rapid Strike Urshifu and the washing machine decently well.

Against other things, our typing lets us switch into Hippowdon and Gastrodon reliably.

Since losing our timbs is going to be a big weakness, we shouldn't worry about common Knock Off users we could switch into otherwise, such as Zeraora, Rillaboom, Seismitoad and Tangrowth. I agree with Pipotchi's sentiments above: let's focus on doing a few things really well rather than add the whole buffet to our plate. Being a reliable stop to big pink blobs is going to give CAP28 a solid niche in the metagame.

• Are there any Pokemon sets that we should consider adding to our switch-in list due to our concept?

Speaking of pink blobs, Chansey and Blissey are incredibly passive, so we shouldn't have too hard a time switching into them.

 

[G-Luke]

Looking at the list of mons that people are suggesting that we can switch into makes me realise that a) People have little to no idea on what is actually viable, (seeing Gastrodon being paraded in mentions) b) Most people didn't have more than an inkling of thought when it came to actually voting for the typing. Either way we are where we are, so lets go?

• Against which Pokemon sets should CAP 28 be able to switch in for free by virtue of its typing?

Based on typing alone, we should be able to comfortably switch in on: Hippowdon, Amoonguss, Tangrowth, Volt Switch Zeraora and the Slowtwins. Most of the other pivots we can't force out, or we can't freely switch in on. I didn't bother wasting time mentioning thing like Urshify-Rapid Strike and Gastrodon because a) these mons arent that viable and they don't pivot well in the current meta.

Are there any Pokemon sets that we should consider adding to our switch-in list due to our concept?

The pink blobs a.k.a Chansey and Blissey are the only other pivots that this CAP can handle without bending our backs over to moderate, so I think its best that these be our only other options in this area.

 

[Zephyri]

Against which Pokemon sets should CAP 28 be able to switch in for free by virtue of its typing?

It kinda feels like the only thing that this typing completely counters is (which isn't the most popular outside of sand) and the Slowtwins. I guess it's kinda good against but it still doesn't have any SE Stab against it (doesn't have SE stab against hippo either, but hippo can't do shit to a Bug-Dragon while amoonguss can very much make us go to sleep). It also has SE stab and beats uhh

Are there any Pokemon sets that we should consider adding to our switch-in list due to our concept?

I definitely feel like we need to be able to switch in on more pokemon. Interesting resistances isn't going to cut it, imo. That being said, I definitely feel like beating and Astro (rip sprite) is pro concept. For zera, we already have a good MU against the Volt Switch version, why not go all the way? Astro has a nice stalemate-but-not-quite MU with us, with both mons threatening super effective STABs. Interstingly, both Zera and Astro are threatened by Ground coverage (maybe something to consider later down the line?) I feel like giving us good matchups against 3 pretty popular pivots in Slowking, Astro, and Zera, while not countering the entire meta is a pro-concept way to go

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Bug / Dragon. Interesting.

Against which Pokemon sets should CAP 28 be able to switch in for free by virtue of its typing?


The number here is actually low. Probably the most important here is the Slowtwins, as from purely a typing standpoint we get it easy from their standard set (I actually don't know the exact set off the top of my head for Slowking but I'ma assume its Scald/Future Sight/Slack Off/Teleport please correct me if I am wrong as I have been told they might be running Dragon Tail more often now). Zeraora's main set is also the consistent switch in from purely a typing standpoint, though we obvious don't like Play Rough or losing our item from Knock Off. Rillaboom can technically remove our item and that does suck, but otherwise we resist its main moves of Grassy Glide and Wood Hammer quite handily and we can switch into that for sure.Obviously Nasty Plot is a factor and Pain Split is well a pain, but we could switch in unboosted on Rotom-Wash for sure thanks to our resistances to Water and Electric. I'm not sure how we break through it, but Hippowdown is not doing much to us since we resist Earthquake.

Now as you notice, a ton of these mons still can use other means to pressure us such as Knock Off, but based on STAB we are able to switch into them.

Are there any Pokemon sets that we should consider adding to our switch-in list due to our concept?

I further echo the inclusion of Blissey and Chansey. They don't threaten us with any super effective move since their main methid of damage is Seismic Toss. Toxic could be a factor but otherwise we have very little stopping us from coming in on it.

I'd also love being able to come in on Urshifu if we could, but considering how ridiculously strong it is that task is 100% a fool's errand.

 

[quziel]

Against which Pokemon sets should CAP 28 be able to switch in for free by virtue of its typing?

I am just posting to make a very minor point here; I think that it could be entirely reasonable for us to switch into Equilibra, given that we resist Epower (its strongest attack) and take neutral damage at best from its other hits. This is obviously a question that would need to be deferred until stats (aka bias), but worth thinking about. Ofc, I think we would still almost def die to DD+Epower unless we got that Goodra level bulk. This is a stretch goal, but one we should keep in mind.

 

[Jewvia]

Against which Pokemon sets should CAP 28 be able to switch in for free by virtue of its typing?

Looking at things purely defensively:
- / are the two big ones. We resist Scald, Future Sight is delayed, our biggest threat is being hit by a status like Burn or Toxic on switch in. This is the biggest matchup that we wanted to be able to beat.
- Grass Types, including , , , and . We shrug off Grass damage with this typing, but the biggest threats here are going to be a repeating case through most things we can switch in on: Status Moves and Knock Off. Not something we care about, but we also resist for what its worth (which isn't much)
- and can't realistically hurt us.
- While not free of charge , :Krillowatt: and Rapid Strike all have completely resisted STABs. I have seen Kril run either Earth Power (resisted) or Ice Beam (SE) so it is still a gamble, and Zeraora/Urshifu do run Knock Off.
- as Quizel mentioned is mostly resisted. Doom Desire is a delayed move that we cannot tank, but we can resist the rest of the kit.
- I haven't seen run Sludge Bomb in a while. While it is more of a gimmicky U-Turner that wants to set up Trick Room, its Earth Power isn't gonna be hurting us much.
- No one talks about Flip Turn, and I wouldn't say its the most viable foe, but I've seen pop up enough. We resist its STAB, it only sometimes runs Ice Fang, and it doesn't even learn Knock Off.

Are there any Pokemon sets that we should consider adding to our switch-in list due to our concept?

People already said and . I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to add in a few of the defensive status stalls we could have a better matchup against. and the aforementioned both have 1 unresisted stab + Toxic, and while it is a free switch in, Scald has that burn chance from the Slowtwins.

(I'm also probably the only person who runs Status Stall , but he would fall under the Pex/Guss section too)

 

[spoo]

Against which Pokemon sets should CAP 28 be able to switch in for free by virtue of its typing?
Assuming a set of Nasty Plot/Hydro Pump/VS/Pain Split this is basically the only pivot that can't punish us significantly with any of its moves on the basis of our typing alone. For many other pivots we switch into 3 of their moves yet the 4th move will be potentially crippling.
will be perfectly fine to switch into however we run the risk of being Toxiced
again, usually fine to switch into, but is crucially able to cripple us via Knock Off
can cripple physical sets through Scald burns (this is only if we are physical of course) otherwise is fine
fine but cripples with Knock
cripples with Scald burns, Toxic, Knock
:krillowatt: resists its STABs but hits us with Ice Beam
either paralyzes us or puts us to sleep, hits us with Knock
we risk two out of the three of paralyzes, puts to sleep, or poisons
Seismic Toss likely won't be a huge deal but many sets run Toxic
entirely dependent on our stat spread and how much Overheat will do, however there is also the possibility of a Discharge para
quziel sums this one up nicely- a possible stretch goal but it could go either way, mostly unclear right now
Foul Play is dangerous if we are physical, if not Foul Play then it hits with Knock, sets with Brave Bird or Toxic are ran as well

clicks Knock or potentially even a dragon STAB if that becomes more common upon CAP28's release (this is obviously unpredictable though)
this also depends a lot on our stats and coverage- we could potentially just be setup fodder but it's unclear right now
strong as hell and will likely outspeed us but could be potentially solved through priority- either way we will take a chunk on switchin
knocks or paralyzes
yikes
yikes
yikes
yikes
yikes
yikes
we might be able to take a CC reasonably well depending on our stat spread? otherwise yikes
*we should NOT be expected to switch into every single Pokemon on this list, this is merely to illustrate that right now we can't really switch into any of them reliably either
This list perhaps is not as bad as it looks because a lot of the time we can definitely live with being Toxiced or losing our boots, and we could end up being able to punish significantly harder in return, but it may prove difficult to get in "for free" as the question asks. What this list means, though, is that a physical attacker with no counterplay to Knock Off or status (read: burns) will likely be a poor direction to take this concept in. Pivots come into the game extremely often and if we want to discourage pivoting then we need to be prepared to come in on these pivots just as frequently, or very close to it. Bug/Dragon has some excellent resists and could easily turn into something incredible for us, but we must have tools to combat common tactics pivots use so we can get in safely versus them. The good news is that we have various methods at our disposal to fight these tactics and it is totally within our reach to do so! If we have some level of counterplay to status (mostly forgivable if we go special but crucial if we are physical), suddenly half of this list becomes very manageable - the same is true if we have counterplay to Knock Off. Once again, taking a Toxic or getting our boots Knocked Off isn't a death sentence necessarily, and if these are sacrifices we are willing to make then that's totally fine, but getting in for free is largely unattainable if we are looking at typing and only typing.

 

[Rabia]

Just from typing alone, the pool of Pokemon CAP 28 can switch into (or rather, should be able to, bulk permitting) isn't actually that dire:
:krillowatt:

Just from B+ and above, these are all Pokemon that CAP 28 resists the STAB move(s) of; sure, there are ways it could be punished---status, Knock Off, and possible coverage---but typing wise it's pretty set. Obviously, bulk may make some of these matchups dicier than it'd like, but I think it's reasonable to expect CAP 28 to have the bulk to sustain a neutral hit at least from these foes.

In terms of adding to this list, I wouldn't mind if the Chansey and Blissey matchups weren't dreadful. Like yeah you can always switch into Seismic Toss, but I think going forward we definitely should keep them in mind as Pokemon we'd like to be able to switch into and deal with. They're premier Teleport users, and I think they're Pokemon people had in their minds when voting for this concept.

 

[G-Luke]

Just from typing alone, the pool of Pokemon CAP 28 can switch into (or rather, should be able to, bulk permitting) isn't actually that dire:
:krillowatt:

Just from B+ and above, these are all Pokemon that CAP 28 resists the STAB move(s) of; sure, there are ways it could be punished---status, Knock Off, and possible coverage---but typing wise it's pretty set. Obviously, bulk may make some of these matchups dicier than it'd like, but I think it's reasonable to expect CAP 28 to have the bulk to sustain a neutral hit at least from these foes.

In terms of adding to this list, I wouldn't mind if the Chansey and Blissey matchups weren't dreadful. Like yeah you can always switch into Seismic Toss, but I think going forward we definitely should keep them in mind as Pokemon we'd like to be able to switch into and deal with. They're premier Teleport users, and I think they're Pokemon people had in their minds when voting for this concept.

I think it is rather disingenuous to list Pokémon such as Equilibra, Smokomodo, Toxapex and Krilowatt among the list of Pokémon that we should be able to switch in on. Traditionally, the Switch In list is the Pokemon that the CAP should be able to switch in on comfortably consistently throughout the match and be able to force out -- essentially what Pokémon CAP 28 counters. And this, isn't it. Sure, we can switch in on Earth Power, but we get absolutely nuked if Equilibra clicked Flash Cannon in its sted. And even if we correctly switch in on EPower.... what do we do next? Equilibra is immensely bulky, and it also resists both of our STAB options. Placing Libra on our switch in list not inly demands a much higher power ceiling than what we may like, but also asks us to justify several rounds of poll jumping. Switching in CAP 28 into Equilibra is really just a loss in momentum on our parts. A similar issue presents us with Toxapex, as it resists one of our STAB options as well, and has multiple means of crippling our CAP. Investing into defeating Toxapex will demand a big chunk of our power budget, and may just ultimately result in exactly the problem we have been running into for the entirety of Gen 7.

Smokomodo and Krilowatt have a differing issue. In Krilowatt's case, while we do resist its STABS, Ice Beam is always ran on Krilowatt, and with 100/100 bulk
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 190-224 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (190, 190, 192, 195, 198, 200, 203, 205, 205, 208, 211, 213, 216, 218, 221, 224)

Combined with our inability to immediately force out a healthy Krilowatt just by our STABs alone, (assuming we have roughly Mew level Attacking stats), this for us to soundly be a counter to Krillowatt, it demands that we a) are able to 2HKO Krilowatt, b) dodge the 2HKO from an Ice Beam switch in AND c) be faster than Krilowatt. That is quite the heavy ask for us just to be able to beat this thing

Smokomodo faces a similar situation, but not necessarily that major. We can 2HKO Smokomodo with Dragon STAB handily with Mew level offenses, and +97 speed isn't that big of a stretch to ask for, but the key here is that we don't actually switch in on Flare Blitz (People forgeting that we don't keep Fire resist here)

252 Atk Smokomodo Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 181-214 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (181, 183, 186, 187, 190, 192, 195, 196, 198, 201, 202, 205, 207, 210, 211, 214)

I think the category that Krilowatt and Smokomodo fall into are Pressure matchups. Ones that we can punish IF we come in on the right moves.

As to Toxapex and Equilibra...I am of the opinion that we forfeited Switch in matchups versus these Pokémon the moment that we decided that Bug / Dragon was our go too typing, and that trying to force these Pokémon into that category only leads us into disaster.

 

[Mx]

While I didn't mention this on my initial post, please remember that we should be able to somehow force out the threats on our switch-in list. I'm planning on moving on to our Pressure list tonight, so if you have anything to add, please post it soon.

 

[Mx]

Alright, time's up for switch-ins. I've decided to further divide our switch in list into two parts, on safe switch ins, we should be able to come in for free, while on situational switch ins, we can only switch into specific moves and might be crippled or outright KOed by others. Here's what I have so far:

Safe switch ins:
Our typing should allows us to switch into the standard Teleport/Scald/Future Sight/Slack Off sets without too much issues. Given that these two are the pivots that we have the best matchup against, it's only natural to try to completely counter them. It's important to note that this doesn't mean that these two shouldn't have any way to punish CAP 28, as other less common options like Toxic or Ice Beam might be able to give us trouble.

Situational switch ins:
Given that we target Teleport users, it's pretty natural we try to beat Blissey. Toxic will certainly be an issue moving forward, but we should at least try to make it so that it needs to switch out manually if we switch in.
(Special Only) Outside of Toxic, we should be able to switch into Hippowdon standard sets without too much issue. That said, this can only work as long as we're not a physical attacker, as in that case is likely that even our strongest moves will bounce out due to its humongous defense.
For both of these, we should be able to switch into their Grass-type moves and our Bug STAB should scare them away; however CAP 28 typing means we can't afford to take a Knock Off, so we can't switch in recklessly.
The two standard Rotom forms shouldn't be able to deal too much damage to us. Our typing alone should lets us Rotom-Wash without too much issues. Rotom-H is trickier, but while taking a boosted Overheat isn't guaranteed, I believe that trying to beat it after switching into an Electric move should be reasonable for us to expect. Both of these should still have options that could be annoying like Will-o-Wisp, Discharge, and Toxic.

Here's also my reasoning for excluding some other Pokemon that have been discussed in this thread:

Exclusions

Amoonguss isn't particularly threatening offensively, but even after a free switch in it has the bulk to take a neutral hit and between Spore and Toxic it should be too much of a nuisance to be considered a switch-in at this point.
While Blissey is in there, I decided to leave out its fellow blob, as Chansey needs even more brute force to break and it's not particularly common at the moment, so I'd like to exclude it for the moment.
While it's true that its standard set (Earth Power/Doom Desire/Rapid Spin/Pain Split) can't really directly threaten us, we can't really guarantee that we'll be able to deal enough damage to force it out before having to take a Doom Desire to our face, which is something we might not be able to afford.
While switching into Earthquake should be easy, we'd need coverage to be able to deal with Excadrill and Iron Head will still hit us for neutral damage. Therefore, while it should be easy to address it on later stages, for now I'd prefer to exclude it.
:krillowatt:While most of Krilowatt moves shouldn't be too problematic, between Ice Beam, high bulk, and good speed tier, our matchup against it is very uncertain for now.
Switching into Earthquake isn't hard but Flare Blitz hits way too hard, so there's no guarantee we will win 1v1.
Even with our neutral Dragon STAB, the amount of power required to break Toxapex is crazy, (252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 229-271 (75.3 - 89.1%) -- not a KO ) so it's better to leave it alone for the time being.
Both Urshifu forms are way too strong to reasonably check. For reference, Keldeo, a mon with pretty good 90/91 defenses is still 2HKOed by Surging Strikes, their weakest STAB ( 252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo on a critical hit: 165-198 (51 - 61.3%) -- approx. 98% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery).
While we resist most of its moves, not only Zeraora can cripple us permanently with Knock Off, but it will pivot out easily with Volt Switch, so CAP 28 can't really provide a solid answer to it without some very specific options.

As imagine most of you have already realized, this list is currently pretty short, so I think in later stages we'll need to seriously consider options to add more into this list, (either with abilities, raw stats, or moves).

Now that's done with, I'd like to provide a more detailed schedule of how I'm planning to handle the rest of this discussion. Next, we'll discuss our Pressure list and then our Checks and Counters afterwards. Each one of these discussions will last for 24 hours. After that, this thread will remain open for one last day so that everyone can post objections to any placements on our final threatlist. This means that this is rough 72 hours warning before the end of this thread.

Now, onto Pressure. Remember that this is the list of Pokemon that should not be able to switch in into some of our moves or should not be able to check us easily. This might have some overlap with our checks and counters, as things like revenge killers might fit in both.

 

[Galvanatic]

Opposing Dragons need to fear switching into our Dragon-type attacks, especially Hydreigon, who's weak to Bug as well. Speed tiers will be an issue but we should force out unboosted Hydreigon, Kyurem, Kommo-o, Astrolotl and Pajantom. Much faster stuff, like Dragapult, at least shouldn't switch in very easily.

There aren't that many Bug-weak Dark, Grass and Psychic-types on the VR that haven't already been discussed, but pressuring Reuniclus seems doable. We can force out frailer mons in this group, like Colossoil and Crawdaunt, thanks to our typing.

 

[Amamama]

Pokémon that cannot come in on any of our STAB moves:


It is threatened by both of our Stabs and while quite bulky a decently strong blow will be very dangerous for it.
At the same time our matchup will also come down to Speed as it can easily threaten us back with its Dragon Stab

Pokémon That won’t want to come in on one of our STAB

and other Dragons cannot come in on our Dragon STAB. That said Astrolotl: and resist our Bug moves and might find a way in, which is especially daunting for because we are unlikely to outspeed it. and on the other hand often forgo Dragon moves so they could still have trouble beating us even if they come in safely.

The Slows, and some less used Dark types like Weavile and Collosoil are not likely to want to come in on our Bug moves.

Pokémon that are generally frailer and require a Safe switch to threaten us, thanks to our high power STAB options.

(On Special Attacks)

All in all we can threaten many of these more offensively leaning mons, either with STAB or with the Sheer Power of our moves.
But at the same time most of these mons posses great Power, backing mostly unresisted or Supereffective moves, that we will not be able to come into.
Also these threats are mostly quite fast and if they manage to come in safely our match up will depend on our Speed Tier.

 

[pokemon111111]

Looking at the list of mons that people are suggesting that we can switch into makes me realise that a) People have little to no idea on what is actually viable, (seeing Gastrodon being paraded in mentions) b) Most people didn't have more than an inkling of thought when it came to actually voting for the typing. Either way we are where we are, so lets go?

As to Toxapex and Equilibra...I am of the opinion that we forfeited Switch in matchups versus these Pokémon the moment that we decided that Bug / Dragon was our go too typing, and that trying to force these Pokémon into that category only leads us into disaster.

I don't see how comments such as these are conducive to the process...? On your first point, the majority won, and we should remain optimistic about creating the most effective CAP possible to fit the concept even with any gripes you may have with the outcome. Why insult the majority just because your desired outcome was not achieved?

On the second point, neither of the Electric / X typings also on the slate can switch into Equilibra any better (actually, worse) so that's not a point anyway. With this typing we trade a better Equilibra match up for a worse Toxapex match up. This thread has so far shown there is good potential for Bug / Dragon to fulfil our concept and think the posts made have brought about good points and targets for us going forward.

 

[TheMintyAltoids]

Are there any Pokemon sets that we should consider adding to our switch-in list due to our concept?
I think that it's very reasonable to add and to the list of Pokemon that this CAP should be able to take care of easily. on the other hand, may be more difficult for this CAP to handle. While we resist ep, this CAP really doesn't have any other advantage based on typing alone. However, I think due to it's prominence in the meta, would be a good Pokemon for this CAP to threaten.

 

[G-Luke]

I don't see how comments such as these are conducive to the process...? On your first point, the majority won, and we should remain optimistic about creating the most effective CAP possible to fit the concept even with any gripes you may have with the outcome. Why insult the majority just because your desired outcome was not achieved?

On the second point, neither of the Electric / X typings also on the slate can switch into Equilibra any better (actually, worse) so that's not a point anyway. With this typing we trade a better Equilibra match up for a worse Toxapex match up. This thread has so far shown there is good potential for Bug / Dragon to fulfil our concept and think the posts made have brought about good points and targets for us going forward.

I corrected Rabia on some dubious points he mentioned in regards to placing Equilibra and Toxapex into our Switch In line up, because its blatantly false. We can't switch in and force out Equilibra nor Toxapex with Bug Dragon, and he said he could, so I simply corrected them.

As for the majority, I will put in my all to make this CAP be as effective of an anti pivot as possible, but I won't be cutting corners - Bug / Dragon was a rather poor typing to pick in regards to threatening pivots in the metagame, and almost no one who championed for this typing has yet to provide further participation. But we are just in threats, we have several stages left to make this CAP work.

 

[quziel]

I think we have a relative luxury to have a just bonkers wide pressure list, though I'd prefer to define it in terms of certain important mons:

SSI (aka we can come in on some of their stuff): :krillowatt: Krilowatt, Zeraora, Rotom-Heat, Astrolotl, Reaches: Equilibra, Urshifu

I tried to cover a fairly diverse list here, with some mons I think we can almost def guarantee a situation switch in (aka if we come in on Kril's Surf we may well beat it), and some reaches in Equilibra and Urshifu. We have the typing to resist one of their main stabs each, and I think choosing one of the two is a great way to help us get a proper niche on the team. Eg if we outrun Shifu and tank a Wicked Blow, or tank a DD+EP combo from libra our flexiblity rises a ton.

NSI (aka we can't come in on them, they can't come in on us): Literally dragon types , Alakazam

Second list is way easier, being "we hit dragons SE, dragons hit us SE". Our matchup here is entirely gonna be based around our speed stat; eg if we have 144 speed we beat pult, if we have 141 speed we lose to pult, if we have 100 speed we beat hydrei, etc. Zam is also here cause well, LO Psychic is a nuke, and I think we can expect it to click that most of the time, and we obviously threaten it out with any bug move ever.