CAP 28 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

[Galvanatic]

We have the typing to resist one of their main stabs each, and I think choosing one of the two is a great way to help us get a proper niche on the team. Eg if we outrun Shifu and tank a Wicked Blow, or tank a DD+EP combo from libra our flexiblity rises a ton.

Could Urshifu be the more worthwhile of the two, given that it's commonly paired with the Slow friends? The extra physical bulk could help against Rillaboom, Zeraora and Astrolotl.

 

[Mx]

And that's it for our pressure list! Here what I have compiled:

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Just with our Dragon STAB, any of the common Dragon-types should be afraid of switching into CAP 28.
:krillowatt: Neither of these pivots should have an easy time against our neutral coverage.
Mandibuzz and Tomohawk are two of the most common defensive pivots on the metagame right now and while our typing doesn't allow us to hit them super effectively, they shouldn't be able to come in for free. These matchups could become much more difficult against physical sets, but I think forcing them to lose momentum by using Roost would still be doable.
While our matchup against Equilibra is pretty complicated, as it resists both of our STABs, the fact that it's one of the most common mons in the metagame means that we would benefit a lot from preventing it from completely countering CAP 28.
Given that we'll be trying to pressure Equilibra, it's very likely that we'll pressure Excadrill as a side effect. Even disregarding that, Excadrill is relatively frail and somewhat slow, so it seems unlikely it will enjoy even our resisted moves.
Two natural victims of our Bug typing, we should be able to pressure them very naturally.
(only offensive sets) Offensive Jumbao sets should fear our Bug-type moves. It's possible that bulkier sets might be able to tank them,so those aren't included here.
While they are both very bulky, they should be somewhat wary of our Bug moves, and we may be able to exploit their lack of recovery to beat them 1v1.
These are all miscellaneous offensive Pokemon that shouldn't be able to switch into our STAB moves.

And now, it's time to talk about our last category, checks and counters. Given that this is a very important step, here's a few questions to guide the discussion:

• What viable Pokemon sets should be able to check/counter CAP 28 by virtue of our typing alone?
• Are there any Pokemon that we cannot afford to be checked by?
• What amount of amount of hard counters should we have?

Remember that our discussion for checks and counter will last for 24 hours, and then on the last day of this thread people can post any objections they might have with my proposed threatlist.

 

[Galvanatic]

• What viable Pokemon sets should be able to check/counter CAP 28 by virtue of our typing alone?

Fairies (, , , ): The former three are likely counters because they resist both STAB options and have super-effective retaliation. Kerfluffle may be whittled down by Life Orb recoil throughout the game, but even a Choice Band Durant's First Impression is a roll for a 3HKO at best. Jumbao will likely check CAP28 because it can hit it hard via Moonblast, but its Bug neutrality will sting on offensive sets. Bulky Jumbao will probably have an easier time.

Dragons (, , , ): Faster Dragons will hit CAP28 for brutal damage, so whichever ones are will be our checks. Because of its magnificent Speed, Dragapult is a likely one. Any Dragon that can take one of our attacks and retaliate may also be checks depending on how we handle our offensive and defensive stats.

Certain steels (, , ): All of them should be able to switch in just fine and gain some momentum. Thus, they're likely reliable counters. Corviknight's longevity makes it the most reliable of them.

Rock-types (, ): They're likely checks, since they will likely crush CAP28 in one Rock attack.

CB : If it's faster, Syclant will check us via Icicle Crash. If not, it's gonna depend on our physical bulk and Ice Shard rolls.

: It's a check if Grassy Seed is consumed.

 

[Krazyguy75]

• Are there any Pokemon that we cannot afford to be checked by?

One massive issue with our typing which we'll need to address is that we, based on typing alone, threaten ourselves in a mirror match. This is extremely dangerous to our typing, as it could lead to people pivoting CAP28 in in case of mirror matches, which would be extremely anti-concept. As such, I gotta say that I think it's important that CAP28 not be a major threat to itself, however the heck we do that.

 

[quziel]

• Are there any Pokemon that we cannot afford to be checked by?

One massive issue with our typing which we'll need to address is that we, based on typing alone, threaten ourselves in a mirror match. This is extremely dangerous to our typing, as it could lead to people pivoting CAP28 in in case of mirror matches, which would be extremely anti-concept. As such, I gotta say that I think it's important that CAP28 not be a major threat to itself, however the heck we do that.

Pivoting isn't just switching in; it implies switching in and then switching out which is not something we'll be doing in a mirror, if anything we'd come in and click Draco/Dragon Claw/Dragon Rush/Whatever.

So this isn't a oneliner;

I worry a tad about this mon having two many mons on paper that answer it, especially because so much of that is defined by the stat bias and the coverage we give it. I think Fairy types are the ones I am most comfortable listing here; if we can't hit steels we're basically unviable.

 

[Krazyguy75]

Pivoting isn't just switching in; it implies switching in and then switching out which is not something we'll be doing in a mirror, if anything we'd come in and click Draco/Dragon Claw/Dragon Rush/Whatever.

So this isn't a oneliner;

I worry a tad about this mon having two many mons on paper that answer it, especially because so much of that is defined by the stat bias and the coverage we give it. I think Fairy types are the ones I am most comfortable listing here; if we can't hit steels we're basically unviable.

I think you misunderstood me; I meant something else would potentially pivot out into us. For example, if STAB dragon 2HKOs us, but a pivot can reduce that to 1HKO by hitting us on entry, then that pivot can use it's pivot move to leave the following round and swap in their own CAP28, and then trade off STAB dragon, where the pivot team will 1HKO but the non-pivot team will get a 2HKO.

So basically, we need to be worse at dealing with ourselves than other pokemon commonly included on pivot teams, while simultaneously not being too weak to those pokemon so that we can still perform our role of countering pivot teams. Otherwise, we end up being our own counter.

EDIT: Alternately we could just be such a strong counter to ourselves that there is literally no difference if we take a hit beforehand or not, but I think that that'd require either very weak defense or absurdly strong offense, neither of which we can really afford for this concept. So probably better to just avoid being in a situation where 1 non-SE hit can change our matchup with ourselves by making us not threaten ourselves majorly.

 

[Galvanatic]

I worry a tad about this mon having two many mons on paper that answer it, especially because so much of that is defined by the stat bias and the coverage we give it. I think Fairy types are the ones I am most comfortable listing here; if we can't hit steels we're basically unviable.

You make a good point. While we could have some neutral coverage vs. Steels, I'd prefer if they were still checks in some way. Three hard, Fairy-type counters based on our typing alone seems fair.

 

[Jewvia]

- Are there any Pokemon that we cannot afford to be checked by?

I don't think we should be forced out by . It is on neither of our pressure or switch in lists, but it is also a bulky stall monster that I think it is something we don't want to just hard wall us off.

- What amount of amount of hard counters should we have?

I personally think its fine if Fairies beat us. Going back to the Concept Assessment and Typing Discussion, it was a type that not common on pivots or other Pokemon we want to deal with. The big exceptions are Parting Shot , and , and of those we still have STAB against Jumbao. It also isn't the exactly a popular coverage option among our targets either compared to Ice.

 

[Yay61]

What viable Pokemon sets should be able to check/counter CAP 28 by virtue of our typing alone?
and seem to be the best options in terms of fairy type checks and counters that should be able to take hits and ko with their supereffective stabs. Bulky should be a check, and while raw power or coverage options may be able to pressure heavily I do not think this is a significant issue, especially as being able to make progress against its checks each time it comes in is a good way to dissuade the overuse of pivots that allow cap 28 to switch in.

Any faster dragons and should be able to comfortably revenge kill cap 28, however it is worth noting that substitute has been brought up multiple times which would shift this matchup except in the case of infiltrator dragapult.

Are there any Pokemon that we cannot afford to be checked by?
I think the biggest worry here is , as it is one of the most dominant defensive pivots and we have no current clear way of threatening it. Part of where toxapex excels is acting as a great middle ground option against most threats, even those that carry supereffective coverage against it. It can often switch in relatively risk free to powerful attackers to scout and proceed to switch into a more specific pokemon. Being able to punish these wasted turns through set up or heavily damaging the middle ground option would be very pro concept and encourage hard switching rather than spending turns pivoting in and out of cap28.

I also agree that being able to beat steels such as is necessary in order for this pokemon as I can’t see this pokemon being able to make a significant impact if it lacks the coverage to make a dent in half of the metagame.

What amount of amount of hard counters should we have?
Its difficult to say for certain without further information on this pokemon, as for example strong wall breakers have very few if any hard counters where sweepers often do have a number of them. However, unless we can force damage on the pivots we are targetting themselves, I think it is important for cap 28 to make some form of progress each time it comes in, putting pressure onto the other team to change their strategy and use more bold hard switches to play for an advantage. In other words, cap 28 should have the ability to wear down and eventually break through its checks if given the chance.

 

[Mx]

And now, time to make our checks and counters list:

• : All three of these Fairies resist both of our STABs and would require very specialized coverage, so they're some of the most natural checks to CAP 28.
• By default, Bulky Jumbao should be able seriously threaten us with Moonblast. This one might not be too hard to change on later stages, but for the moment, I think we should be expected to lose against this by default.
• (only against physical sets) While special/mixed sets should be able to play around Tomohawk with just Draco Meteor, purely physical sets are inherently at a huge disadvantage, something that we should seriously remember on later stages.
• At the moment, we would need some specialized tools if we want to ever beat Toxapex. This is something we might be able to change in later stages, but for the moment I think this still qualifies as a check at the very least.
• While none of these Pokemon can switch in freely, it would be very difficult to prevent them from revenge killing us due to their amazing speed, super effective coverage, and priority.

Exclusions:

• I'd rather not mention all these other Dragons here. Our speed is not set in stone yet, so these matchup will probably swing wildly on later stages
• While neither of these Steel-types are common enough to warrant a mention on our pressure list, the coverage needed to deal with Equilibra might interfere with their ability to check us, so I decided to exclude them for now, as they aren't particularly relevant for us.

With checks and counters done, here's how our complete threatlist looks right now:

• Checks and Counters: (only against physical sets)
• Pressure:
  
  :krillowatt:(at least offensive sets)
• Situational switch ins:(Only against mixed/special sets)
• Safe switch ins:(Teleport/Scald/Future Sight/Slack Off sets)

Now that our threatlist is complete, if anyone has any issue with any of the placements, please post your ideas, as I might add, move, or remove some things depending on feedback. This thread will close in 24 hours.

 

[Mx]

And time's up! As no one has posted any objections, I haven't made any changes to the list showed above.

CAP 28 Threatlist:

• Checks and Counters: (only against physical sets)
• Pressure:
  
  :krillowatt:(at least offensive sets)
• Situational switch ins:(Only against mixed/special sets)
• Safe switch ins:(Teleport/Scald/Future Sight/Slack Off sets)

A few notes regarding this list:

1. This is supposed to represent how CAP 28 should be expected to perform based on concept and typing alone, later stages might alter this list drastically.
2. Being capable of switching safely into Slowbro and Slowking, immediately forcing out Blissey, and pressuring Steel-types should be our main priorities in order to achieve our concept.
3. Given that our current list of switch ins is very limited, adding more switch ins (either situational or safe) should be another main point of discussion on later stages.
4. Lowering the number of checks and counters to CAP 28 should also be considered, but it's not required and should not take priority over the previous 2 points, as that list is already rather small.

With that out of the way, it's time to move to the Primary Ability stage, which will be lead by the Rising Star himself, -Voltage-!