CAP 28 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

[Krazyguy75]

Honestly, I don't see the problem with some of the abilities being "too generally useful". Currently, our pokemon counters... the slowtwins. And even then only the 70% of the time we don't get burned, and even then it doesn't affect their regen. And even then, only if they don't have something to switch to that counters us, which includes Flying, Rock, Ice, Dragon, Fairy, and Steel, which ain't a small list; especially that Fairy/Steel/Dragon difficulty. At that point, why bother using this 'mon? You're praying they are running one of two common meta 'mon, aren't running one of the many counters, and don't have the coverage to push you out... which almost everything does.

Our 'mon is currently playing rock paper scissors and hoping the opponent chooses a slowtwin. For example, if you assume that Slowtwins are on 30% of teams, that'd mean our 'mon is basically out of action 70% of the time by virtue of mediocre offensive and bad defensive typing plus hazard weakness. That means that on average, the team taking our mon is at a disadvantage. So even if Slowtwins are a major meta threat taking up 30% of all lists, we can't afford to take CAP28 simply due to it not have any general utility. As such I don't think general utility is bad for our ability, so long as it also targets the threats we plan to punish, and targets them harder than the 'mons we don't.

Personally, I am really liking Neutralizing Gas as it massively threatens the list of pivots and scares off some previously even matchups like Astrolotl, and it does so in a way that doesn't rely on offensive presence necessarily. Should we be too reliant on offense, we'd have to trade off defense to avoid being OP, and if we are poor at defense with our lack of safe switches, we'd end up becoming the very thing we swore to destroy: a pivot reliant 'mon. Neutralizing Gas puts the pressure where it hurts for those mons without pushing too much power into the offense department, and makes them really have to think about how to deal with us.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I've been out of commission the past few days and just want to say that the discussion has been excellent. I don't have much to add beyond voicing support for a range of good abilities that have been well argued by others, specifically Neutralizing Gas, Download and Triage. All three abilities are rather different but do a lot to patch up certain matchups.

Neutralizing Gas is by far my favorite due to the compression that it brings in terms of blanket checking pivots. It simultaneously provides offensive pressure against Regenerator and Magic Guard mons through denying their recovery, as well as granting CAP 28 defensive utility against a few offensive strategies and powerhouses in the metagame such as weather setters, Rillaboom and Azumarill. While it also activates on more than just the pivots we are targeting, I believe that the interactions it has with the key pivots in the meta are too successful for our concept to ignore. I also agree with Krazyguy75's post above that a strong ability isn't something that we should be too afraid of, considering how little our type achieves by itself.

Download is less generically powerful than Neutralizing Gas, but still a significant ability in its own right. It allows us to make CAP 28 a more effective mixed attackers, and can allow us to tackle a range of different mons offensively.

Triage is another interesting ability that has both offensive and defensive interactions with a few key moves that can give CAP 28 some interesting niches against common pivots. It is not my intention to poll jump, but I'd like to mention some specific move interactions that are pro concept. Priority Leech Life gives us a way to deal with offensive pivots without a significant amount of bulk, and allows for 50% recovery to allow it to sit on bulky pivots that can't threaten it. Healing Wish receiving priority also could give it a potential niche on hyper offense teams as a way to prevent Rapid Spin from some key pivots like Tomohawk and Equilibra that it couldn't otherwise beat, denying their momentum and making their pivot unsuccessful in that regard.

Overall, this has been a very interesting stage and I think the sheer variety of pro concept options reveals its success. While these three are my favourites, I would be happy with a range of the others due to the solid arguments behind them.

 

[Zephyri]

I want to put forward Triage as an option for primary ability. As said before, Triage is an interesting option that helps us shore up both our offensive and defensive capabilities. STAB Priority Leech Life means that we have much better MUs against fast pivot-ins like , or . I think the Zera MU is really nice here, as zera's one of the mons that we can easily turn into a switchin. I also feel like options such as Healing Wish, Drain Punch and Strength Sap can really help us with utility and overall options. Strength Sap specifically is super interesting i think, as it basically threatens any physical attacker pivot-in while also giving us reliable recovery. Strength Sap seems like one of the best ways to take advantage of the pivotins, which imo gives Triage a really strong case here.

Apart from that, I support Download, Shield Dust, Stakeout, and Tinted Lens

 

[Mx]

Here's my thoughts on some of the abilities discussed so far:

Shield Dust/Water Absorb/Storm Drain: I'm putting these three together because they share the same objective, preventing burns to allow physical sets to operate more freely. They're pretty weak abilities on the vacuum (at least for something that already resists Water), but the fact that they can target the Slowtwins so perfectly makes them very desirable. Without these, we cannot really afford to be a dedicated physical attacker, which would be very beneficial to deal with Blissey. Being mixed can alleviate this problem if we don't pick them, but it's certainly going to put more pressure on our stats. I understand that these aren't the most exciting abilities to pick, but they help with our concept in a way that no other ability could.

Neutralizing Gas: This ability has being talked about ever since our concept was first pitched, and for a very good reason. Shutting down any ability is an incredible asset against bulky Regenerator pivots like Slowking, Amoonguss, and Toxapex some very interesting targets for our concept. Shutting down Regenerator means that their longevity would be decreased in a way that no other ability/move could ever hope to achieve, and prevents their usual pivoting strategies. It also has tons of cool interactions with many Pokemon, like preventing Tomohawk's Intimidate, Forcing Syclant, Alakazam, Krilowatt, and Reuniclus to take entry hazard damage, and removes immunities from Equilibra and Rotom-H. I think this uniqueness could be an excellent way to distinguish CAP 28 from all the other Dragon-types in the metagame, something that would greatly benefit us at this point.

Natural Cure: This is on a similar boat to Shield Dust and the other abilities that prevents burns, but instead of preventing them, it makes it much more easier to cure them. Being forced out by a burn against the Slowtwins wouldn't be a very good outcome for us, but this ability compensates by also making us resilient against other status. Not being too crippled by Toxic in particular would be really huge in our Blissey matchup, as we could pretty much outright counter it at that point, which would be incredibly pro concept. Overall, while this is a pretty humble ability, I think it's still one of our best picks.

Download: A very cool ability that enables us to mixed much more easily. It's activation can be a bit unreliable at times, but a x1.5 boost would serve as a very good compensation for not being able to run items like Choice Band or Life Orb.

Simple: This is a very workable choice if we limit CAP 28's set up options, as Work Up can give us a great incentive to run mixed sets, something very beneficial to our concept. It does come with a few glaring flaws, as Draco Meteor becomes much less reliable by dropping our SpA by -4, and Tomohawk's Intimidate would be even more detrimental to us.

Magic Guard: At first this seemed like a fantastic choice, as we can actually try to take advantage of our resistances without having to worry about taking SR damage and Life Orb would mean that we won't need to go overboard with stats. However, this dependence on Life Orb will probably make our damage output a bit unreliable and even with complete hazard immunity Dragon/Bug isn't that great defensively.

Tinted Lens: This ability should definitely help with making it easier for CAP 28, as most of our resistances wouldn't be able to stop our STABs alone. That said I'm a bit worried that this is a bit too much for us to handle, as a Draco Meteor that can only be realistically walled by Fairy-types seems like a very challenging element to balance without gutting the rest of the mon.

Triage: This ability is nice in theory, but it goes completely against the idea that we should counter the Slowtwins as forcing us to go physical without having any protection against burns means that we'll never be able to reliably counter them despite them being our main targets.

Analytic/Stakeout: I really don't get these suggestions. These abilities should incentivize the usage of Teleport, as that would actually be a decent way to avoid dealing with the boosted damage and blindly punishing any switching is not the same as punishing pivoting. Stakeout in particular is being completely underestimated here, an ability that doubles the damage of anything that switches is insane and I'm not even sure it's ever possible to properly balance, even more so when we already need significant initial firepower to properly pressure our targets.

Volt Absorb: This is another ability that I think completely misunderstands our situation. The main reason why we cannot afford to check Zeraora is Knock Off, having an Electric immunity would only be circumstantial at best. Against Krilowatt, the other common Electric-type pivot in the meta, we'd still need to be incredibly wary of Ice Beam, which should probably enough to force us out unless we have an immense amount of special bulk, so again this fails to make any significant impact.

Corrosion: Given that Bug/Dragon works better as an offensive typing, an ability that wants to play the long game against Steel-types seems very counter intuitive. Additionally, our last two CAPs should really have been a lesson about being wary of Toxic when you have a way to dissuade Steel-types and this seems like that but on steroids.

 

[Deck Knight]

My thoughts on a few abilities:

The Good:

Neutralizing Gas: Nullifying Regenerator abusing pivots makes this ability instantly relevant. Neutralizing Gas came up in the last CAP Project discussion, and the breadth and depth of how it impacts general metagame threats still holds. Many CAP projects were deliberately designed to synchronize ability with stats and/or movepool, and Neutralizing Gas turns that dynamic on its head.

Punk Rock: As a matter of offensive abilities, this is easily the best. Gives a key boost to specific attacks without being generally useful like a Tinted Lens or Adaptability would be. The defensive aspects really don't matter much, as the typing is neutral to other Special Attacking bugs and Snaelstrom is just going to run Ice Beam.

Shield Dust: Of the "Prevents Scald Burns" abilities, I like this the most, as it also gives CAP 28 better matchups against a number of threats. Having immunity to secondary effects on a Pokemon that resists Scald and Scorching Sands is great. The lesser used freeze and flinch immunities are also helpul. Cyclohm has already shown what this ability can do on a better Pokemon than the "beginning forest" bugs.

The Bad:

Magic Guard: We've seen this play out in CAP before. Krilowatt has two great abilities, but it only uses one. It went from a Utility Counter with the very versatile Trace to an all-out LO Attacker, even with Sub-90 offenses. Magic Guard is going to do the same here, especially with a STAB that hits for as much neutrally as Dragon does.

Tinted Lens: What I don't like about Tinted Lens is that compared to Punk Rock is that it doesn't improve out matchup against the Slowtwins, it improves our matchup against everything that isn't the Slowtwins. It effectively turns Fairy types into the only valid switchin for Dragon-type attacks, and lets Bug hit them for neutral, though there are still 4x resists like Togekiss.

Analytic/Stakeout: The biggest flaw in these abilities is that they actually *incentivize* Teleport. In the case of the Slowtwins this might make them switch around to get sacrificed, but that's a bad game to encourage. Volkraken also gives us insight into how these abilities would function practically, an Volkraken's Analytic-boosted attacks are terrifying. Imagining them on something like a mixed attacker that can credibly threaten Blissey without STAB is a bad thought. Bug/Dragon/Fighting (being realistic here) and gambing on what to switch in without a mixed wall sounds like the wrong direction for roadblocking a pivot.

General thoughts:

To me, the immediacy of the ability is really key. The entire point of a pivot is to be able to get in and out of a battle repeatedly, so abilities mentioned like Natural Cure, while I think its a decent middle ground on status prevention, lose something in requiring a switch-out on a hax hit. Neutralizing Gas, Punk Rock, and Shield Dust all derive immediate benefits and not delayed or situational benefits, and are ideal for putting pivots on the spot.

 

[earl]

I really, really don’t understand how people think Stakeout/Analytic encourages our targets to Teleport- In a vacuum, sure Teleport does nullify Stakeout. But the ability should be evaluated based on the relevant Teleport users. We already threaten the Slowtwins on typing alone so Stakeout effectively traps them (hard switch with prediction, or take 70+% and teleport) and we will need to 2HKO Blissey it we want to actually beat it, so once again it’s functionally trapped. Those are the only relevent Teleport users, so I fail to see how Stakeout loses to Teleport in this context. Additionally, the ability dissuades fast U-Turns/Volt Switch, of which the most notable example is forcing Zeraora to stay in and potentially trade with CAP 28.

 

[quziel]

I will note; complaints of "this enforces a SpA bias" must also be applied to almost every non-water absorb and non-shield dust ability. We want to reliably switch into Slowking, so we either need to run special (aka avoid burns), or we need to run an ability that makes us resistant to burns (Shield Dust, Water Absorb, Shed Skin, Natural Cure).

To make this not a one liner:

Storm Drain is like, really cool for us, providing a noted buff to a hypothetical physical set (no scald burn), a noted buff to special sets (no scald burn, and spA raise), and a noted buff to mixed sets (no scald burn, spA raise). As to why this is cooler than Water Absorb, which offers very similar benefits, it creates more uncertainty. If you manage to get that +1 spA raise, then even if you're a pure physical set they have to fear that potential +1 Draco, assuming we have more than 50 SpA lol. If you're a special set? Then you've successfully transformed what should have been a free Scald for Slowking into a legitimately intense amount of power. Mixed benefits more than almost any other as it can suddenly run special moves with no investment and still hit like a freight truck. In short, this ability creates a ton of uncertainty, abuses the desired pivots, and really helps to shore up a lot of our different sets in different ways.

 

[theotherguytm]

I really, really don’t understand how people think Stakeout/Analytic encourages our targets to Teleport- In a vacuum, sure Teleport does nullify Stakeout. But the ability should be evaluated based on the relevant Teleport users. We already threaten the Slowtwins on typing alone so Stakeout effectively traps them (hard switch with prediction, or take 70+% and teleport) and we will need to 2HKO Blissey it we want to actually beat it, so once again it’s functionally trapped. Those are the only relevent Teleport users, so I fail to see how Stakeout loses to Teleport in this context. Additionally, the ability dissuades fast U-Turns/Volt Switch, of which the most notable example is forcing Zeraora to stay in and potentially trade with CAP 28.

Ok, which is better, taking 70% on a mon with Regen anyway, or saccing a switch-in. Because nothing switches into Stakeout boosted moves with any credibility. As an example, let's take Yanmega, with 116 SpA, and give it Stakeout. Let's switch standard Ferrothorn into it.
252 SpA Stakeout Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 238-282 (67.6 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
...Ok, let's not switch standard Ferrothorn into it. Let's see what happens with Choice Specs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 357-421 (101.4 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yeah. No. Ok, let's try Blissey.
252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 313-369 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
A 116 SpA mon. Doing half to Blissey in one attack. What about Toxapex? A solid as hell resist?
252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 149-176 (49 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Also takes half. And gets KOed by Air Slash, for reference.

Now, shall we simulate Draco Meteor? Make Stakeout Yanmega Bug/Dragon.
252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 432-508 (142.1 - 167.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 330-388 (108.5 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Oh god. And this is Timid. Imagine the damage output Modest gives.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 496-585 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ok, you don't have to imagine anymore. How are we meant to balance this? And would you really rather subject yourself to these calcs than let your Regen pivot take the hit?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 302-356 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Which it can. I don't know the correct Slowking spread, but whatever, point is the KO isn't happening. So just Teleport. Make sense?

 

[earl]

Ok, which is better, taking 70% on a mon with Regen anyway, or saccing a switch-in. Because nothing switches into Stakeout boosted moves with any credibility. As an example, let's take Yanmega, with 116 SpA, and give it Stakeout. Let's switch standard Ferrothorn into it.
252 SpA Stakeout Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 238-282 (67.6 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
...Ok, let's not switch standard Ferrothorn into it. Let's see what happens with Choice Specs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 357-421 (101.4 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yeah. No. Ok, let's try Blissey.
252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 313-369 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
A 116 SpA mon. Doing half to Blissey in one attack. What about Toxapex? A solid as hell resist?
252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 149-176 (49 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Also takes half. And gets KOed by Air Slash, for reference.

Now, shall we simulate Draco Meteor? Make Stakeout Yanmega Bug/Dragon.
252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 432-508 (142.1 - 167.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 330-388 (108.5 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Oh god. And this is Timid. Imagine the damage output Modest gives.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 745-879 (104.3 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns
Ok, you don't have to imagine anymore. How are we meant to balance this? And would you really rather subject yourself to these calcs than let your Regen pivot take the hit?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 302-356 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Which it can. I don't know the correct Slowking spread, but whatever, point is the KO isn't happening. So just Teleport. Make sense?

It’s called a checkmate for a reason- Sure, slowking may not be dead, but an 50% slowking (after regen) doesn’t check much of anything.

Also a lot of those calcs are misleading- How are you launching off 2 consecutive Stakeout-boosted Draco Meteors? And doing 50% to a resists is pretty crazy (Tinted Lens called), until you remember that the following hit will not have the boost. A lot of your given examples still win over CAP28 due to this.

 

[theotherguytm]

It’s called a checkmate for a reason- Sure, slowking may not be dead, but an 50% slowking (after regen) doesn’t check much of anything.

Also a lot of those calcs are misleading- How are you launching off 2 consecutive Stakeout-boosted Draco Meteors? And doing 50% to a resists is pretty crazy (Tinted Lens called), until you remember that the following hit will not have the boost. A lot of your given examples still win over CAP28 due to this.

You do realise that:
1. Slowking can simply pivot in and out on another turn bringing it to 70-80%. And so on. Renegerator is hardly a one-time deal, and it's one of the reasons Toxapex is so infamous for being able to come back into a game after being "crippled". All Stakeout does is force Slowking to do exactly what it wants to do-tank hits for the rest of its team. It's hardly "checkmate", when a kill is only forced if the opponent plays into it.
2. Tinted Lens works only on resists. Stakeout works on everything.
3. Ok, here's the correct Blissey calc:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 496-585 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Blissey does not get Regenerator. It is crippled. By a very average SpA mon.
4. Those mons hardly "win" the matchup, as in stop CAP 28 doing any further damage by crippling it or removing it. Toxapex is forced to Recover before it can do anything else. Blissey similarly has to Soft-Boiled. And then they have to potentially face that hit again on a future turn, which is what makes Stakeout just turn us into an unga bunga breaker.
5. I'm not even taking into account prediction and potential coverage.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 612-720 (85.7 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
And we did say we wanted to be able to beat Blissey 1v1...

So really Stakeout (and Tinted Lens tbh) just makes us into a glorified breaker. There's no particular punishing of pivoting strategies, in fact said strategies are encouraged to avoid the Stakeout-boosted hit that is nearly impossible to tank, and to get CAP 28 into position to fire off Stakeout-boosted moves. And the only thing CAP 28 ends up doing with the Slowtwins, is just using them as switch-in fodder like any other generic breaker.
TL;DR: If Blissey is the only thing that can remotely reliably switch into us, there's a huge problem.

 

[Voltage]

Alright, as promised, I'm going to now give a post here on the abilities as to what I am liking and not liking. This post will go into the abilities I feel good about slating, abilities I'm on the fence about, and abilities that I'm not excited about and would need more convincing. Please do not take this to be the final slate, as there are still two days here to discuss things. Please also be respectful in this discussion as well, especially if I have an opinion that you disagree with. Abilities are posted in (mostly) alphabetical order.



Abilities I am likely to slate

• Download
  • Much respect to our artists, but if this gets picked, it might be a little tricky for them. In any case, I kind of like Download a lot here since it gives us the opportunity to go Mixed simply by nature of what we switch into. Given our typing, it's a really nice way to give ourselves a bit of a power boost given that we're likely going to be running Boots if this ability gets slated.
    
    
• Neutralizing Gas
  • I think this one goes without saying. It's clearly pro-concept, there's been avid support for it from the get go, it is a unique spin on creating a Pokemon, and it provides CAP28 with unique means of satisfying its concept. I was initially worried that the discussion of abilities would be dominated by Neutralizing Gas, but I'm pleased to see that people are at least keeping an open mind. That said, the fact that this is a likely slate should come as a surprise to no one.
    
    
• Shield Dust
  • Preventing burn is going to be crucial to stop Blissey from beating us, and I really like this since you also avoid gross hax from Scald, Discharge, Lava Plume, or any random freezes that might matter late game. By having something like Shield Dust, while we don't give ourselves an immunity like we would with two other abilities, I think this is going to give us more room for flexibility down the line with respect to stats and movepool. Of course, this isn't the flashiest ability, but I think it works well with the concept given that a lot of the common pivoting mons have some form of move that can have secondary effects that are otherwise detrimental to the foe.
    
    
• Triage
  • I like the opportunities that we get from running Triage, especially since there is solid Bug STAB we can run with it. It gives us built-in priorities to attack faster pivots in the event that we're slow, and I really like the idea of being able to give ourselves built-in speed control here. I'm a little biased, but I think it also does a good job at letting us live a little longer while still chipping things. I realize that a lot of people don't think this would be great for the primary ability, but I think it's valid enough to slate.

Abilities I am on the fence about

• Magic Guard
  • I'll be honest, yesterday I was ok with slating this one, but now I'm a little on the fence. The issue is that while you're not taking any chip damages from hazards, allowing for a freer item choice, I can't help but see this going from "Speedbump" to "Magic Guard Life Orb attacker". But then again, we lack safe switch ins, so mitigating chip from hazards, weather and other effects is quite useful. I'm just wary of the the idea of giving CAP28 Magic Guard for one purpose, but then it gets used in a completely different way. But then again, maybe this concept does call for a Magic Guard Life Orb attacker. The other issue I have with it is that it doesn't help us at all with dealing with Scald burns and kind of forces us to go down a special path, as opposed to leaving our options open. Spoo's post is useful in providing differing viewpoints, however, I am still very torn by the listed Pros and Cons (especially when one pro effectively states that we need to be coming in a lot, which means that we would likely be pairing CAP28 with a number of its own pivoting partners).
    
    
• Natural Cure
  • You get a way to heal yourself from Burns from Scald, and Toxics from like everything not from Gen 8. Yes, we gain longevity in our means of getting around threats that we're supposed to handle, but there's part of me that is a little concerned with our utility being reliant on our own switching. I worry tat with this ability we could easily become a pivot ourselves. While that isn't necessarily anti-concept, I'm hesitant to say that that's definitely eh route we want to travel. Of course, there's a lot of merit in running it too.
    
    
• Punk Rock
  • I'm very close to putting this on the slate, but I think it's just very much locking us into a certain set of strategies that we'll have to deal with. I don't know if I have a problem with it a ton, but obviously I want to avoid poll jumping too. But I like the opportunities it has with both offensive, and potential mirror matchups. Like I said, I'm pretty close to slating it, but I need that last little push to send me over on it.
    
    
• Rattled
  • I like the idea of it, but I need more discussion before I'd feel comfortable slating it. It helps expand the list of mons we can switch into by effectively getting a speed boost from Knocks and U-turns, but I need to see more pushes for why.
    
    
• Tinted Lens
  • I go back and forth on Tinted Lens a lot here. It is definitely useful in helping our awkward STAB be threatening to Steel mons, for example, but then there's the fact that really, the mons we're trying to beat (Slows, Blissey already don't like our STABs, or don't necessarily resist them (Hippo, Rotom-W). Furthermore, it basically makes CAP28 become only dealt with by Fairies for our Dragon STAB, and that's kind of dangerous to me. There are pros and cons, but I'm hesitant to effectively slate this one.
    
    
• Water Absorb and Storm Drain
  • I alluded to this in my section on Shield Dust, but I'm a little hesitant to include one of these in the slate. Having a true immunity to water moves instead of dodging Scalds is something that I really want to see discussed a bit more. I would really like to slate one of these, though I understand that there may be voter redundancy as well with Shield Dust. Furthermore, there's the debate on whether we want a SpA boost, or to recover HP me. I haven't really made up my mind on which of these I WOULD slate, though I think I would be likely to bump one of these up through a good argument. Quziel's storm Drain post is really great at what I'm looking for though. But as always, avoiding Scald burns is good.

Abilities I am unlikely to slate

• Analytic and Stakeout
  • Before you prepare your rebuttals to my points here, please be aware that I get that discouraging hard switches with attacks sounds incredibly pro-concept upon first glance. It would effectively checkmate Pokemon into rather difficult situations that are very clearly good at preventing a pivot. That said, Mx and Deck Knight put it very well, and I share the same sentiment. Stake out and Analytic both encourage Teleport pivoters to effectively click Teleport to minimize damage being dealt. Given that CAP28 should be immediately threatening both of the Slowtwins and Blissey, I fail to see how, outside of some crazy moves and stats, that these mons aren't even more encouraged to click Teleport when they're up against CAP28.
    
    Then there's also just with Stakeout in general that I get very wigged out by. Stakeout is a slippery slope that is going to inevitably lead to us being ultimately very restricted in later stages of this project due to the sheer fact that Stakeout is incredibly powerful. As Mx put it, I have zero idea how we'd be able to make a properly balanced CAP by choosing Stakeout for our primary ability, especially when we're already trying to be putting a LOT of pressure on some of these fatter mons.
    
    If I'm slating one of these two, it would probably be Analytic, but I really need to see a strong argument as to why Teleport users aren't immediately incentivized to click Teleport, which is the exact opposite of our project's goals.
    
    
• Comatose
  • This feels like going to the extreme to avoid status. I feel like this doesn't give us much offensive utility in the means of stopping pivots though. I don't think it's likely I'll be putting this on the slate.
    
    
• Contrary
  • STAB Draco Meteor is no laughing matter, and it feels a bit overkill. I understand needing to break open a core, and removing the pivots from the chain as reach put it, but it just feels off to me. I see the merit on stopping Astro's Fire Lashes, and Kerf's Parting Shots, and in general being a nuisance to defoggers, but I just can't feel comfortable slating it given how easy it would be to spam Draco Meteor. While this ability is in this section, I would ABSOLUTELY love to see a reason to slate this guy, because there are merits, it's just that the movepool part feels very dangerous.
    
    
• Guts
  • This feels a lot like Comatose, but this time you do get some kind of offensive presence. I don't really like this if only because it only helps with avoiding status and punching holes. It's very simple and straight forward. While I think it probably would work to beat pivoting mons in general, I really think we can do better. Plus it really puts CAP28 on a timer the moment it comes in, which is kind of detrimental to accomplishing our goal.
    
    
• Poison Heal
  • I get why this was submitted, it effectively lets us avoid Scald burns and be all cool with some solid recovery. But as we can see with Snaelstrom, this ability does not compensate for a lackluster ability, and also like Snaelstrom, I fail to see how having this ability would help satisfy the concept.
    
    
• Simple
  • Simple on a mon that has the potential to have two of the best boosting moves in the game is scary, and is going to severely limit our options going down the line. I mean, I would love to make a mon like that but not here. There's also the fact that Draco would bring us to -4, and any kind of intimidate being extra bad for us. It's high risk, high reward, but I don't think that's quite the kind of playstyle we want here.
    
    
• Volt Absorb, Motor Drive and Lightning Rod
  • These abilities miss the point entirely. Against Zeraora, the foe is encouraged to Knock Off; against Rotoms, the foes is encouraged to do literally anything else like Burn, Toxic, or Pain Split for example.

 

[G-Luke]

You do realise that:
1. Slowking can simply pivot in and out on another turn bringing it to 70-80%. And so on. Renegerator is hardly a one-time deal, and it's one of the reasons Toxapex is so infamous for being able to come back into a game after being "crippled". All Stakeout does is force Slowking to do exactly what it wants to do-tank hits for the rest of its team. It's hardly "checkmate", when a kill is only forced if the opponent plays into it.
2. Tinted Lens works only on resists. Stakeout works on everything.
3. Ok, here's the correct Blissey calc:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 496-585 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Blissey does not get Regenerator. It is crippled. By a very average SpA mon.
4. Those mons hardly "win" the matchup, as in stop CAP 28 doing any further damage by crippling it or removing it. Toxapex is forced to Recover before it can do anything else. Blissey similarly has to Soft-Boiled. And then they have to potentially face that hit again on a future turn, which is what makes Stakeout just turn us into an unga bunga breaker.
5. I'm not even taking into account prediction and potential coverage.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 612-720 (85.7 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
And we did say we wanted to be able to beat Blissey 1v1...

So really Stakeout (and Tinted Lens tbh) just makes us into a glorified breaker. There's no particular punishing of pivoting strategies, in fact said strategies are encouraged to avoid the Stakeout-boosted hit that is nearly impossible to tank, and to get CAP 28 into position to fire off Stakeout-boosted moves. And the only thing CAP 28 ends up doing with the Slowtwins, is just using them as switch-in fodder like any other generic breaker.
TL;DR: If Blissey is the only thing that can remotely reliably switch into us, there's a huge problem.

1. Taking minimum 70% of damage is not ideal for a Regenerator Pokémon, and unless the opponent is a buffon or is plain unlucky, it will be an uphill battle for the Regenerator to get back up to full. That way, we did our job, and forced Slowking into a check mate scenario, similar to how Pursuit was utilized in previous gens past.

2. You don't actually answer his point, in that sturdy resists are still a viable means of defensively checking CAP 28. I noted that you purposefully chose to avoid posting any calcs regarding sturdy resists, which I will provide

252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Equilibra: 165-194 (40.4 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (165, 166, 168, 170, 172, 174, 176, 178, 180, 182, 184, 186, 188, 189, 192, 194)
Even with the Stakeout Boost AND Choice Specs, an item that is certainly not mandated and probably won't be the very best item either, we only manage to 3HKO Equilibra. And after losing the extra Stakeout boost, we are still hopelessly walled and Pain Splitted on back to full. A similar situation exists for Draco Meteor

252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Equilibra: 237-280 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (237, 240, 243, 246, 249, 252, 255, 258, 260, 263, 266, 269, 271, 274, 277, 280)
A 2HKO sounds scart, until you relise that CAP 28 is a) now no longer endowed with Stakeout, and b) at -2. Making the next Draco Meteor do this
-2 252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Equilibra: 59-70 (14.4 - 17.1%) -- possible 6HKO
Possible damage amounts: (59, 60, 60, 61, 62, 63, 63, 64, 65, 66, 66, 67, 68, 69, 69, 70)

And as I said, this is assuming we decided to use the best boosting item available, which is most certainly not the case 100% of the time. Some more fun calcs to consider

252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kerfluffle: 113-133 (36.5 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (113, 114, 115, 117, 118, 120, 121, 122, 124, 125, 126, 127, 129, 130, 132, 133)

252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight: 240-282 (60 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (240, 243, 245, 248, 251, 254, 257, 259, 262, 265, 268, 270, 273, 276, 279, 282) followed by
-2 252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight: 60-71 (15 - 17.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (60, 60, 61, 62, 63, 63, 64, 65, 66, 66, 67, 68, 69, 69, 70, 71)

252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 90-106 (24 - 28.3%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO
Possible damage amounts: (90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 99, 99, 100, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106)

252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 75-89 (23.1 - 27.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89)

252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 44+ SpD Primarina: 156-185 (42.9 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (156, 159, 160, 162, 164, 166, 168, 170, 171, 174, 175, 177, 179, 181, 183, 185)

Blissey is most certainly not its only switch in. Speaking of Blissey

3. Assuming Modest (assuming alot right there), CAP 28 has a chance to beat Blissey if you get the highest rolls on both Draco Meteor hits

252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 496-585 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 126-148 (17.6 - 20.7%) -- possible 5HKO
Possible damage amounts: (126, 127, 129, 130, 132, 133, 135, 136, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 145, 147, 148)

Now, if you are unlucky and didn't hit the absolute highest roll on the first Draco Meteor, Blissey will Soft Boiled up back to full as if it didn't take damage. And if CAP 28 prefers Timid, You aren't beating Blissey by dropping Dracos. If you didn't pick Choice Specs, you aren't beating Blissey. So I'd calm down about the rant that nothing can switch in on us.

4. Now, ALL of the previous Pokemon I listed not only can switch in on a CAP 28, but they also beat it 1v1, with STAB, a Status condition or simply stalling us out.

5. Assuming specific coverage isn't something that is done when discussing Pokémon at this point in the series, because that would be known as poll-jumping, and that is illegal in the CAP Process. If a Pokémon after having X is proven to be too strong to get Y, it just does not get it, it won't be denied X on the off chance that without it Y will be balanced, because it can either a) be broken anyways, defeating the point or b) be actually underwhelming because whatever X addressed for the CAP remains unaddressed.


Being a "glorified breaker" is absolutely a viable, if not rather blunt, means of achieving our concept, as if a Pokémon can hit several popular pivots for heavy damage, how will they achieve the goal of actually pivoting around when they have below 50% HP or are fainted?

Also will be addressing both this post and voltage's recent post regrding stakeout in this conclusion -

• Analytic and Stakeout
  • Before you prepare your rebuttals to my points here, please be aware that I get that discouraging hard switches with attacks sounds incredibly pro-concept upon first glance. It would effectively checkmate Pokemon into rather difficult situations that are very clearly good at preventing a pivot. That said, Mx and Deck Knight put it very well, and I share the same sentiment. Stake out and Analytic both encourage Teleport pivoters to effectively click Teleport to minimize damage being dealt. Given that CAP28 should be immediately threatening both of the Slowtwins and Blissey, I fail to see how, outside of some crazy moves and stats, that these mons aren't even more encouraged to click Teleport when they're up against CAP28.
    
    Then there's also just with Stakeout in general that I get very wigged out by. Stakeout is a slippery slope that is going to inevitably lead to us being ultimately very restricted in later stages of this project due to the sheer fact that Stakeout is incredibly powerful. As Mx put it, I have zero idea how we'd be able to make a properly balanced CAP by choosing Stakeout for our primary ability, especially when we're already trying to be putting a LOT of pressure on some of these fatter mons.
    
    If I'm slating one of these two, it would probably be Analytic, but I really need to see a strong argument as to why Teleport users aren't immediately incentivized to click Teleport, which is the exact opposite of our project's goals.

Lets make this very clear - Stakeout is the big beefy ability that is potentially a top tier option for CAP 28 plain and simple. It does bite into our power budget, and is something that you must accept when choosing this particular ability. I think we can all acknowledge that. That being said, I do not understand the arguments being presented by the anti Stakeout gang. Stakeout is not an objectively broken ability like the STags and Wonder Guards and even arguably the Huge Powers. Stakeout is very strong, but has clear drawbacks that hold it back - only activating on the turn a Pokémon switches in on its Attack. The only Pokémon in standard with said ability rotted in PU upon its debut, so its not the instant Uber maker that some may make it out to be. I have trust in the team and the knowledge of the community to be able to balance this ability if it is chosen whether it be during stats and / or movepool. The main argument Insee against Stakeout is that it makes CAP 28 want to Teleport out against us, and I just want to ask, how exactly? Out of the abilities that will definitely hit the list, Download is the only one that actively dissuades Teleport due to boosting the power of its attacks upon switch in, threatening to kill it before teleporting. Therefore, based on this logic, all of the others should be tossed out, no? Obviously not. Most of the abilities will require stats or movepool to pick up the slack in this regard, so I'd assume the same would be done for Stakeout if it is chosen. Our typing already does that for the Slowtwins by threatening to KO or severly cripple them with our Bug STAB, so really we will only need to tackle Blissey, which we would always need to address regardless of whether or not we picked Stakeout.

 

[Yay61]

I don’t see the appeal of triage at all really. Priority healing seems pretty useless, as most fast pokemon like , and can seriously threaten us with either knock off or a powerful stab move so its only useful for switching into a weak, fast attacker when cap28 is low on health. Priority healing wish is also underwhelming, not just for the fact that we will likely outspeed many bulky pivots like and anyway, but punishing pivots seems more of a long term proposition. It don’t think switching into a pivot and dying is going to do much to dissuade the use of pivots.

Now I know the main draw of this ability is priority leech life but I wanted to get those out of the way first. Requiring physical bias with no burn protection obviously limits us from effectively switching into slowbro, so stating that triage allows cap 28 to punish a teleporting slowbro is misleading. However, first impression is also a powerful bug priority move and for most of the examples listed in this thread it would work just as well as triage. If slowbro teleports into a faster pokemon as we come in, first impression can still punish that without taking up the ability slot. While it has the disadvantage of only being usable on the first turn, putting more pressure on moveslots it is rare to need this priority outside of the first turn. If cap 28 comes in on a faster pokemon or the opponent pivots out into one, FI is just as effective as triage. If instead, we come in on a slowbro's scald for example, priority is not necessary as faster pokemon cannot come in without taking our powerful stab moves.

So in short, triage boost is only relevant to leech life, and this effect can be replicated by first impression if it is so desired while still allowing us to include beneficial abilities like Shield Dust and Neutralising Gas. The drawback of FI is largely irrelevant as if the pivot stayed in as we switched in, any powerful stab move would be enough to punish a faster pokemon coming in.

Sorry for mentioning specific moves so often, but it is unfair to champion triage leech life and ignore the powerful priority that can be easily achieved outside of this ability.

Anyway, I do have to agree that Magic Guard is not great for this concept. It absorbs a lot of our power budget while achieving surprisingly little for the concept. If anything, despite the free life orb our power level will be weaker due to accounting for this item. Also, as this ability does not present many options for punishing aside from strong breaker, losing almost a quarter of our power through knock off would be crippling if we intend to force damage onto bulky pivoting cores. This means that the hazard immunity is largely irrelevant, as MG or no, cap 28 will not want to take knock off and so it may as well need heavy duty boots. I just can’t see the appeal of an ability that both fails to fix a weakness of our typing as Shield Dust and Storm Drain do and also fails to increase our offensive pressure and punishing ability as could be achieved through Neutralising Gas.

Edit: The post below shows how leech life 2hkos zera and Syclant, allowing triage to beat them if slowking gives us a free time (otherwise, FI is the same). This means that they can only switch in once before they are in range of our attacks, so I don’t really see what the big deal is. Additionally, guaranteeing beating these faster pivots would be nice, but we need to make sacrifices at least somewhere. We need to be able to force good damage onto bulky cores to really punish these pivots and if this mon is able to break through bulky pokemon without even super effective stabs AND cannot be revenge killed there are concerns for how strong this pokemon would be. It’s one thing to punish frail pokemon attempting to pivot in, its another to invalidate them as counterplay entirely.

 

[Amamama]

I don’t see the appeal of triage at all really. Priority healing seems pretty useless, as most fast pokemon like , and can seriously threaten us with either knock off or a powerful stab move so its only useful for switching into a weak, fast attacker when cap28 is low on health. Priority healing wish is also underwhelming, not just for the fact that we will likely outspeed many bulky pivots like and anyway, but punishing pivots seems more of a long term proposition. It don’t think switching into a pivot and dying is going to do much to dissuade the use of pivots.

Now I know the main draw of this ability is priority leech life but I wanted to get those out of the way first. Requiring physical bias with no burn protection obviously limits us from effectively switching into slowbro, so stating that triage allows cap 28 to punish a teleporting slowbro is misleading. However, first impression is also a powerful bug priority move and for most of the examples listed in this thread it would work just as well as triage. If slowbro teleports into a faster pokemon as we come in, first impression can still punish that without taking up the ability slot. While it has the disadvantage of only being usable on the first turn, putting more pressure on moveslots it is rare to need this priority outside of the first turn. If cap 28 comes in on a faster pokemon or the opponent pivots out into one, FI is just as effective as triage. If instead, we come in on a slowbro's scald for example, priority is not necessary as faster pokemon cannot come in without taking our powerful stab moves.

So in short, triage boost is only relevant to leech life, and this effect can be replicated by first impression if it is so desired while still allowing us to include beneficial abilities like Shield Dust and Neutralising Gas. The drawback of FI is largely irrelevant as if the pivot stayed in as we switched in, any powerful stab move would be enough to punish a faster pokemon coming in.

First impression cannot replicate the effects of triage. Most neutral frail attackers will take heavy damage of One leech life, let alone two.
You cannot boost a first impression, and you cannot use it twice in a row.
Given a turn to set up a we could threaten to OHKO Zeraora

+2 252 Atk Abomasnow Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zeraora: 294-346 (92.7 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

We could also set up a Sub which gives us 2 turns of priority while sub shields us from damage.

252 Atk Abomasnow Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Syclant: 156-184 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

We could also think about other moves that could pair nicely with Triage, not that they’re a given.
Lastly the healing provided by Leech Life can mitigate effects of Entry hazards and other passive damage.

You cannot do any of this with FI.
The only scenarios where FI is better is if the faster check is already damaged and you need the 10 BP+ to finish it off or if our targets teleport on the switch and we only have the time for one hit.
Else Leech life with triage is more versatile and provides welcome longevity.

That said I don’t think Triage is the most targeted option here, since it expands our pressure list with faster threats, rather than solidifying our MUs with the bulky pivots we already try to target.

 

[Pipotchi]

I really dont think Triage should be slated, the benefit of priority is that it doesnt worry about being revenge killed when boosting on a teleport switch, but are all commonly used fast pivots that will eat up our STAB priority with ease and then revenge kill or cripple us regardless. It also would suggest a physical route, yet providing no damage boost OR switchin reliability, we would be making a physical anti-pivot that most likely loses to the most common pivot for physical attackers . Which is failing concept super hard and id be pretty disappointed if it won.

Regarding Shield Dust, Storm Drain and Water Absorb- these are all functionally the exact same ability, with Shield Dust being the weakest and Storm Drain being the strongest. I dont really like any of these but theres a call to slate one of them so id go with the strongest one which is Storm Drain. Again I feel like these do nothing for us like I said in my last post, its trying to get into the lane of already successful anti-pivot dragons and has a chance of flopping since there doesnt look like much can happen in movepool that separates us from the competition. Plus its one of the mildest executions of concept, only granting a 30% more reliable switchin on one single pokemon.

Dare I talk about Stakeout lol.. the thing I think im getting from the discussion is that its a kinda Pursuit situation- the wrong mon came in, and now something is dying. I did think this was anti-concept at first but I can see how it targets specific mons quite well. The issue I have with this is that it could be quite hard to limit it to just threaten those targets. After all, while it does pursuit them in a sense, the initial attack is still going to be hitting for perhaps 100+ bp which increases the scope of potential catches quite drastically, and its something that can be done with any type move. Its no longer a case of catching a specifically dark-weak pokemon in a 1v1 resulting in a kill, but just catching any pokemon that we win against in a 1v1 resulting in a kill/crippling damage which honestly sounds really hard to balance. With a scope that stretches from Blissey to Slowbro I can see a lot of unintended mons getting caught in the crossfire lol. All Ill say is this could probably fulfil the concept but has a much smaller landing platform of making a balanced result, I feel like this is very easy to undershoot or overshoot.

 

[Zephyri]

I just want to use this post to voice my support for Triage. Imo, triage is one of the most interesting, unique and "fun" ways to go about this concept , albeit a bit unfocused. What does Triage do, you ask? Triage moves a lot of our C&C mons into pressure and Zera from pressure from sit switchin. The interesting thing about Triage in my opinion is the fact that it targets the pivot-ins instead of a pivots themselves, which is a really cool way to go about this concept imo. I do realize that Triage suggests a physical route but doesn't do shit about burns, but i think it's benefits outweigh that. There are a few specific moves, such as Strength Sap, Healing Wish or Drain Punch, that make this so interesting, but that's a bit of polljumping so i'm not going to get into that. I do think that Triage's strengths come from those moves though, so if it were to be slated I'd honestly think those moves are near mandatory.

Other abilities I like are Neutralizing Gas, Download, Stakeout, and Shield Dust

 

[Amamama]

Abilities I am on the fence about

• Natural Cure
  • You get a way to heal yourself from Burns from Scald, and Toxics from like everything not from Gen 8. Yes, we gain longevity in our means of getting around threats that we're supposed to handle, but there's part of me that is a little concerned with our utility being reliant on our own switching. I worry tat with this ability we could easily become a pivot ourselves. While that isn't necessarily anti-concept, I'm hesitant to say that that's definitely eh route we want to travel. Of course, there's a lot of merit in running it too.

In the scenarios we are likely to be in natural cure isn’t any better than shield dust. Curing Toxic or burns is nice and all but it requires us switching out. We will loose momentum and Blissey, Pex and co did, what they are supposed to do. Walling us infinitely and Forcing us out due to toxic and recovery and Switch out, when it’s appropriate.
Leaving us crippled for the turns we stay in also does nothing for us against the slows as a burn might prevent us from doing enough damage to outspeed Regenerator. In a drawn out game Natural cute might have some impact. But these games are also where our targets excel.

Water Absorb and Storm Drain

• I alluded to this in my section on Shield Dust, but I'm a little hesitant to include one of these in the slate. Having a true immunity to water moves instead of dodging Scalds is something that I really want to see discussed a bit more. I would really like to slate one of these, though I understand that there may be voter redundancy as well with Shield Dust. Furthermore, there's the debate on whether we want a SpA boost, or to recover HP me. I haven't really made up my mind on which of these I WOULD slate, though I think I would be likely to bump one of these up through a good argument. Quziel's storm Drain post is really great at what I'm looking for though. But as always, avoiding Scald burns is good.

I want to echo Pip here. Shield dust, Water absorb and Storm drain are all picks for mostly one reason. Avoiding Scald burns, to give us a shot at a reliable physical set.
All three do that just fine. All three do have accompanying effects.
Storm drain increases our power, Water Absorb could give us some more longevity and Shield dust helps against miscellaneous side effects.
Aiding against these sideaffects isn’t bad, but Heatom, Amoonguss for which this probably applies the most, have other moves that will just cripple us as much. So shielding us against these sideeffects is similar to being a Bug/Dragon against Zera (we resist it’s strongest moves but knock heavily cripples us anyway)
Regaining some HP on a predicted water move is a tad better. The Slows are supposed to be our prio 1 switch ins and Scald is their no 1 attack. So Water absorb either dissuades them entirely from using scald or we at least can heal back some damage, which can come in handy if we lost our HDB for example.
Storm drain is the best solution in that regard in my opinion. It might help dissuade Scalds altogether and if we happen to catch one it gives us a boost, which we can use to Muscle through checks or heavily cripple Switch ins.
That said all of these abilities only patch up few of our MUs. Shield dust is probably the broadest here, helping us against Heatom, Amoonguss, Pex, Astro and the Slows, while the other two can take advantage of Krill, Pex, Washtom, and The Slows.

Tinted Lens

• I go back and forth on Tinted Lens a lot here. It is definitely useful in helping our awkward STAB be threatening to Steel mons, for example, but then there's the fact that really, the mons we're trying to beat (Slows, Blissey already don't like our STABs, or don't necessarily resist them (Hippo, Rotom-W). Furthermore, it basically makes CAP28 become only dealt with by Fairies for our Dragon STAB, and that's kind of dangerous to me. There are pros and cons, but I'm hesitant to effectively slate this one.

I have the same feeling about Tinted Lens, but ultimately it is easier to control, than abilities like Contrary, Stakeout or Simple, because its Not hard to find the mons, that can actually switch in on us and tweak our Stats accordingly, since right now it’s entirely dependent on typing. (While we can Set our stats the same way With Stakeout well have to be really careful, with coverage. Contrary and Simple are so volatile, that it will either turn out borked or bad.)
Coverage will not be affected by this ability so we can easily adjust the Stats to what we don’t want to beat.
It still is a dangerous ability, but it’s much easier to handle in a design process, than others.
The main reason I want to advocate FOR Tinted lens is, that it essentially frees up moveslots for possible set up (boosting or subs) and/or utility (Dragon tail, knock and hazards come to mind), which our typing has made really difficult to do.

Rattled

• I like the idea of it, but I need more discussion before I'd feel comfortable slating it. It helps expand the list of mons we can switch into by effectively getting a speed boost from Knocks and U-turns, but I need to see more pushes for why.

I also really like this one. I have to acknowledg, that it doesn’t really do anything for us regarding the defensive pivots we initially want to target. That’s why I don’t think this is the best ability for primary.
But I already want to advocate for it here as a possible secondary ability, because I believe it expands the scope of what we can do, to checking faster Pokémon, especially most dragons, but also other fast and frail attackers.
Because if not for our intended targets, this woild be one of the most on concept abilities. Targeting Knock and Uturn is very concept relevant and it also kind of helps patching up some of the shortcomings of our typing. Yes we might loose our item to a Zera knock off, but now we outspeed and can force it to hard switch rather than volt out. The same goes for weaker uturns or intimidate.
Also we shouldn’t forget that We also boost on other moves of these types, as well as ghost moves, which could further the utility of this ability outside of our concept.

 

[earl]

I’m not a huge fan of Rattled- When the punishment is just +1 speed, not denying the attack or anything, the opponent will just swap to their defensive answer. They haven’t lost any momentum, you have.

Also don’t see how Triage is anti-pivot in any way. It just seems generally anti-offense, now that you can out prioritize everything in the metagame and become a blanket revenge killer for stuff like Alakazam, Weavile, Zeraora, etc. I don’t see Triage and think, “wow that really dissuades pivoting”, I see Triage and think “wow offense would hate this”.

I second slating Water Absorb/Storm Drain over Shield Dust (still think Scald burn fears are overblown, if we’re so afraid of them I’d rather go mixed than gimp the ability). At least the water immunity abilities directly punish Slowbro rather than just make the chip damage Slowbro will inflict burn-proof.

 

[G-Luke]

1. Taking minimum 70% of damage is not ideal for a Regenerator Pokémon, and unless the opponent is a buffon or is plain unlucky, it will be an uphill battle for the Regenerator to get back up to full. That way, we did our job, and forced Slowking into a check mate scenario, similar to how Pursuit was utilized in previous gens past.

2. You don't actually answer his point, in that sturdy resists are still a viable means of defensively checking CAP 28. I noted that you purposefully chose to avoid posting any calcs regarding sturdy resists, which I will provide

252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Equilibra: 165-194 (40.4 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (165, 166, 168, 170, 172, 174, 176, 178, 180, 182, 184, 186, 188, 189, 192, 194)
Even with the Stakeout Boost AND Choice Specs, an item that is certainly not mandated and probably won't be the very best item either, we only manage to 3HKO Equilibra. And after losing the extra Stakeout boost, we are still hopelessly walled and Pain Splitted on back to full. A similar situation exists for Draco Meteor

252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Equilibra: 237-280 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (237, 240, 243, 246, 249, 252, 255, 258, 260, 263, 266, 269, 271, 274, 277, 280)
A 2HKO sounds scart, until you relise that CAP 28 is a) now no longer endowed with Stakeout, and b) at -2. Making the next Draco Meteor do this
-2 252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Equilibra: 59-70 (14.4 - 17.1%) -- possible 6HKO
Possible damage amounts: (59, 60, 60, 61, 62, 63, 63, 64, 65, 66, 66, 67, 68, 69, 69, 70)

And as I said, this is assuming we decided to use the best boosting item available, which is most certainly not the case 100% of the time. Some more fun calcs to consider

252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kerfluffle: 113-133 (36.5 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (113, 114, 115, 117, 118, 120, 121, 122, 124, 125, 126, 127, 129, 130, 132, 133)

252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight: 240-282 (60 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (240, 243, 245, 248, 251, 254, 257, 259, 262, 265, 268, 270, 273, 276, 279, 282) followed by
-2 252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight: 60-71 (15 - 17.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (60, 60, 61, 62, 63, 63, 64, 65, 66, 66, 67, 68, 69, 69, 70, 71)

252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 90-106 (24 - 28.3%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO
Possible damage amounts: (90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 99, 99, 100, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106)

252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 75-89 (23.1 - 27.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89)

252 SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 44+ SpD Primarina: 156-185 (42.9 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (156, 159, 160, 162, 164, 166, 168, 170, 171, 174, 175, 177, 179, 181, 183, 185)

Blissey is most certainly not its only switch in. Speaking of Blissey

3. Assuming Modest (assuming alot right there), CAP 28 has a chance to beat Blissey if you get the highest rolls on both Draco Meteor hits

252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 496-585 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 126-148 (17.6 - 20.7%) -- possible 5HKO
Possible damage amounts: (126, 127, 129, 130, 132, 133, 135, 136, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 145, 147, 148)

Now, if you are unlucky and didn't hit the absolute highest roll on the first Draco Meteor, Blissey will Soft Boiled up back to full as if it didn't take damage. And if CAP 28 prefers Timid, You aren't beating Blissey by dropping Dracos. If you didn't pick Choice Specs, you aren't beating Blissey. So I'd calm down about the rant that nothing can switch in on us.

4. Now, ALL of the previous Pokemon I listed not only can switch in on a CAP 28, but they also beat it 1v1, with STAB, a Status condition or simply stalling us out.

5. Assuming specific coverage isn't something that is done when discussing Pokémon at this point in the series, because that would be known as poll-jumping, and that is illegal in the CAP Process. If a Pokémon after having X is proven to be too strong to get Y, it just does not get it, it won't be denied X on the off chance that without it Y will be balanced, because it can either a) be broken anyways, defeating the point or b) be actually underwhelming because whatever X addressed for the CAP remains unaddressed.


Being a "glorified breaker" is absolutely a viable, if not rather blunt, means of achieving our concept, as if a Pokémon can hit several popular pivots for heavy damage, how will they achieve the goal of actually pivoting around when they have below 50% HP or are fainted?

Also will be addressing both this post and voltage's recent post regrding stakeout in this conclusion -



Lets make this very clear - Stakeout is the big beefy ability that is potentially a top tier option for CAP 28 plain and simple. It does bite into our power budget, and is something that you must accept when choosing this particular ability. I think we can all acknowledge that. That being said, I do not understand the arguments being presented by the anti Stakeout gang. Stakeout is not an objectively broken ability like the STags and Wonder Guards and even arguably the Huge Powers. Stakeout is very strong, but has clear drawbacks that hold it back - only activating on the turn a Pokémon switches in on its Attack. The only Pokémon in standard with said ability rotted in PU upon its debut, so its not the instant Uber maker that some may make it out to be. I have trust in the team and the knowledge of the community to be able to balance this ability if it is chosen whether it be during stats and / or movepool. The main argument Insee against Stakeout is that it makes CAP 28 want to Teleport out against us, and I just want to ask, how exactly? Out of the abilities that will definitely hit the list, Download is the only one that actively dissuades Teleport due to boosting the power of its attacks upon switch in, threatening to kill it before teleporting. Therefore, based on this logic, all of the others should be tossed out, no? Obviously not. Most of the abilities will require stats or movepool to pick up the slack in this regard, so I'd assume the same would be done for Stakeout if it is chosen. Our typing already does that for the Slowtwins by threatening to KO or severly cripple them with our Bug STAB, so really we will only need to tackle Blissey, which we would always need to address regardless of whether or not we picked Stakeout.

I would also like it to be known that the following arguments also apply for Analytic, and I'd quite frankly prefer for Analytic to be subbed over Stakeout, as it gives us more flexibility later on in the process. The main purpose of this was just to highlight that switch punishing abilities should not be discounted.

 

[Jewvia]

Looks like we have a very competitive slate for 28.

Analytic and Stakeout

Stakeout is very powerful... Against opponents that switch out. It has lots of power against raw tags as well as Turners/Volt Switchers. And that's it. I do not think we are putting ourselves into an insurmountable position for our stat stages, especially considering that many of the safe switch ins are still safe switch ins. However, we do put heavy pressure on the opponent and make them take quite a beating for exactly that pivot. I think G-Luke covers it better than I did, but I believe this ability is more worthy of being slated than some of the "on the fence" options such as...

Magic Guard

The more I think about Magic Guard as a solution... The less I like it. The main benefits it provides us is immunity to burn/toxic damage, and immunity to SR. On the flip side, this doesn't actually solve the problems we are trying to solve with Burns or Stealth Rocks in my eyes. The problem with burn isn't the damage, but how it dampens our atk (should we choose to go physical/mixed.) Magic Guard will remove the latent damage but not fix the debuff. On the other side, the problem with Stealth Rocks is that we are locked into carrying HDB. If we take Magic Guard though... I wouldn't say we are *locked* into Magic Guard Life Orb, but I don't remember the last time I've seen Krilowatt run Trace or an item other than Life Orb. It would not only be something to worry about in the latter stages, but I don't think it particularly helps us for what we have so far.

Water Absorb and Storm Drain

I do not think that either of these abilities are a good fit for CAP 28. Thanks to our Dragon typing, we have a resistance to Scald that can help us out in the Slowtwins matchup, but turning this resistance into a total immunity for specifically this one interaction does not feel like the right move to be making. There are other options already on the slate such as Shield Dust (which you mentioned in the redundancy thing) that help us with this exact interaction, and then more, allowing us to tank Fire Lashes or Discharges and not worry too much about the side effects.

That being said, Storm Drain feels like it would be the one of these two abilities that allows us to pressure who we switched into more with a boosted Draco Meteor. However with that, we've gotten away from why we wanted the Scald resist in the first place unless we follow up with mixed physical moves on the rest of the set list. I don't like either of these options for what we are trying to accomplish, but Storm Drain feels more relevant than Water Absorb.

 

[spoo]

Alright, as promised, I'm going to now give a post here on the abilities as to what I am liking and not liking. This post will go into the abilities I feel good about slating, abilities I'm on the fence about, and abilities that I'm not excited about and would need more convincing. Please do not take this to be the final slate, as there are still two days here to discuss things. Please also be respectful in this discussion as well, especially if I have an opinion that you disagree with. Abilities are posted in (mostly) alphabetical order.



Abilities I am likely to slate

• Download
  • Much respect to our artists, but if this gets picked, it might be a little tricky for them. In any case, I kind of like Download a lot here since it gives us the opportunity to go Mixed simply by nature of what we switch into. Given our typing, it's a really nice way to give ourselves a bit of a power boost given that we're likely going to be running Boots if this ability gets slated.
• Neutralizing Gas
  • I think this one goes without saying. It's clearly pro-concept, there's been avid support for it from the get go, it is a unique spin on creating a Pokemon, and it provides CAP28 with unique means of satisfying its concept. I was initially worried that the discussion of abilities would be dominated by Neutralizing Gas, but I'm pleased to see that people are at least keeping an open mind. That said, the fact that this is a likely slate should come as a surprise to no one.
• Shield Dust
  • Preventing burn is going to be crucial to stop Blissey from beating us, and I really like this since you also avoid gross hax from Scald, Discharge, Lava Plume, or any random freezes that might matter late game. By having something like Shield Dust, while we don't give ourselves an immunity like we would with two other abilities, I think this is going to give us more room for flexibility down the line with respect to stats and movepool. Of course, this isn't the flashiest ability, but I think it works well with the concept given that a lot of the common pivoting mons have some form of move that can have secondary effects that are otherwise detrimental to the foe.
• Triage
  • I like the opportunities that we get from running Triage, especially since there is solid Bug STAB we can run with it. It gives us built-in priorities to attack faster pivots in the event that we're slow, and I really like the idea of being able to give ourselves built-in speed control here. I'm a little biased, but I think it also does a good job at letting us live a little longer while still chipping things. I realize that a lot of people don't think this would be great for the primary ability, but I think it's valid enough to slate.

Abilities I am on the fence about

• Magic Guard
  • I'll be honest, yesterday I was ok with slating this one, but now I'm a little on the fence. The issue is that while you're not taking any chip damages from hazards, allowing for a freer item choice, I can't help but see this going from "Speedbump" to "Magic Guard Life Orb attacker". But then again, we lack safe switch ins, so mitigating chip from hazards, weather and other effects is quite useful. I'm just wary of the the idea of giving CAP28 Magic Guard for one purpose, but then it gets used in a completely different way. But then again, maybe this concept does call for a Magic Guard Life Orb attacker. The other issue I have with it is that it doesn't help us at all with dealing with Scald burns and kind of forces us to go down a special path, as opposed to leaving our options open. Spoo's post is useful in providing differing viewpoints, however, I am still very torn by the listed Pros and Cons (especially when one pro effectively states that we need to be coming in a lot, which means that we would likely be pairing CAP28 with a number of its own pivoting partners).
• Natural Cure
  • You get a way to heal yourself from Burns from Scald, and Toxics from like everything not from Gen 8. Yes, we gain longevity in our means of getting around threats that we're supposed to handle, but there's part of me that is a little concerned with our utility being reliant on our own switching. I worry tat with this ability we could easily become a pivot ourselves. While that isn't necessarily anti-concept, I'm hesitant to say that that's definitely eh route we want to travel. Of course, there's a lot of merit in running it too.
• Punk Rock
  • I'm very close to putting this on the slate, but I think it's just very much locking us into a certain set of strategies that we'll have to deal with. I don't know if I have a problem with it a ton, but obviously I want to avoid poll jumping too. But I like the opportunities it has with both offensive, and potential mirror matchups. Like I said, I'm pretty close to slating it, but I need that last little push to send me over on it.
• Rattled
  • I like the idea of it, but I need more discussion before I'd feel comfortable slating it. It helps expand the list of mons we can switch into by effectively getting a speed boost from Knocks and U-turns, but I need to see more pushes for why.
• Tinted Lens
  • I go back and forth on Tinted Lens a lot here. It is definitely useful in helping our awkward STAB be threatening to Steel mons, for example, but then there's the fact that really, the mons we're trying to beat (Slows, Blissey already don't like our STABs, or don't necessarily resist them (Hippo, Rotom-W). Furthermore, it basically makes CAP28 become only dealt with by Fairies for our Dragon STAB, and that's kind of dangerous to me. There are pros and cons, but I'm hesitant to effectively slate this one.
• Water Absorb and Storm Drain
  • I alluded to this in my section on Shield Dust, but I'm a little hesitant to include one of these in the slate. Having a true immunity to water moves instead of dodging Scalds is something that I really want to see discussed a bit more. I would really like to slate one of these, though I understand that there may be voter redundancy as well with Shield Dust. Furthermore, there's the debate on whether we want a SpA boost, or to recover HP me. I haven't really made up my mind on which of these I WOULD slate, though I think I would be likely to bump one of these up through a good argument. Quziel's storm Drain post is really great at what I'm looking for though. But as always, avoiding Scald burns is good.

Abilities I am unlikely to slate

• Analytic and Stakeout
  • Before you prepare your rebuttals to my points here, please be aware that I get that discouraging hard switches with attacks sounds incredibly pro-concept upon first glance. It would effectively checkmate Pokemon into rather difficult situations that are very clearly good at preventing a pivot. That said, Mx and Deck Knight put it very well, and I share the same sentiment. Stake out and Analytic both encourage Teleport pivoters to effectively click Teleport to minimize damage being dealt. Given that CAP28 should be immediately threatening both of the Slowtwins and Blissey, I fail to see how, outside of some crazy moves and stats, that these mons aren't even more encouraged to click Teleport when they're up against CAP28.
    
    Then there's also just with Stakeout in general that I get very wigged out by. Stakeout is a slippery slope that is going to inevitably lead to us being ultimately very restricted in later stages of this project due to the sheer fact that Stakeout is incredibly powerful. As Mx put it, I have zero idea how we'd be able to make a properly balanced CAP by choosing Stakeout for our primary ability, especially when we're already trying to be putting a LOT of pressure on some of these fatter mons.
    
    If I'm slating one of these two, it would probably be Analytic, but I really need to see a strong argument as to why Teleport users aren't immediately incentivized to click Teleport, which is the exact opposite of our project's goals.
• Comatose
  • This feels like going to the extreme to avoid status. I feel like this doesn't give us much offensive utility in the means of stopping pivots though. I don't think it's likely I'll be putting this on the slate.
• Contrary
  • STAB Draco Meteor is no laughing matter, and it feels a bit overkill. I understand needing to break open a core, and removing the pivots from the chain as reach put it, but it just feels off to me. I see the merit on stopping Astro's Fire Lashes, and Kerf's Parting Shots, and in general being a nuisance to defoggers, but I just can't feel comfortable slating it given how easy it would be to spam Draco Meteor. While this ability is in this section, I would ABSOLUTELY love to see a reason to slate this guy, because there are merits, it's just that the movepool part feels very dangerous.
• Guts
  • This feels a lot like Comatose, but this time you do get some kind of offensive presence. I don't really like this if only because it only helps with avoiding status and punching holes. It's very simple and straight forward. While I think it probably would work to beat pivoting mons in general, I really think we can do better. Plus it really puts CAP28 on a timer the moment it comes in, which is kind of detrimental to accomplishing our goal.
• Poison Heal
  • I get why this was submitted, it effectively lets us avoid Scald burns and be all cool with some solid recovery. But as we can see with Snaelstrom, this ability does not compensate for a lackluster ability, and also like Snaelstrom, I fail to see how having this ability would help satisfy the concept.
• Simple
  • Simple on a mon that has the potential to have two of the best boosting moves in the game is scary, and is going to severely limit our options going down the line. I mean, I would love to make a mon like that but not here. There's also the fact that Draco would bring us to -4, and any kind of intimidate being extra bad for us. It's high risk, high reward, but I don't think that's quite the kind of playstyle we want here.
• Volt Absorb, Motor Drive and Lightning Rod
  • These abilities miss the point entirely. Against Zeraora, the foe is encouraged to Knock Off; against Rotoms, the foes is encouraged to do literally anything else like Burn, Toxic, or Pain Split for example.

Writing down my thoughts on some of these, I think Neutralizing Gas should absolutely be slated as well as one of the three burn-immune abilities (my vote is for Storm Drain for reasons already discussed) but it looks like the other spots on the slate are pretty much open to any few of the 1000 other random abilities submitted and it will be very competitive to land a spot on this slate. I support Download being slated as it's arguably the best ability for a mixed attacker that I believe will be very difficult to dance around, it's definitely something that demands your opponent to immediately answer you which I think is fantastic for this concept. Assuming the slate consists of 4-5 abilities, the last option(s) to round out the slate will no doubt be very hard to decide on. Simple, Magic Guard, and Punk Rock are my personal favorites though. The issue of a Simple mon gaining access to Quiver/Dragon Dance is a possibility, yes, however I think giving these moves to something with Simple would be identified as foolish decision right out the gate and these moves are highly unlikely to ever be distributed. Simple is an attractive ability mostly due to Work Up and the efficacy a mixed attacking/sweeper set would have, in the same vein as Download but of course distinct in its own way. The drops from Draco Meteor are a bit annoying but it assumes that 1) we would even be running our dragon stab on a Work Up + 3 attacks set and 2) that it is always advantageous to stay in afterwards to keep attacking - these are both things that I believe we are mostly in control of when designing this CAP. I don't think the intimidate drops from Tomohawk would be an issue either due to a mixed setup set likely being able to handle Tomohawk well enough on its own. Simple would also take a good deal of pressure off of the stats stage because if we don't have an offensively boosting ability we need some seriously crazy stats to deal even just 66% to Slowking with our special Bug STAB. Magic Guard I've already written a big post on so I'm not going to discuss it further but my general thoughts are that it is not necessarily our best choice but certainly a viable one and it should be a strong contender for the slate all things considered. I'm probably not the best person to argue for Punk Rock but it's cool to me because it incentivizes running mono Bug STAB (we really don't have to distribute Clanging Scales if we don't want to), and assuming we are running 3 attacks it would free up space to run better coverage moves instead of being pressured into running our very redundant dual STABs on the same set. These coverage moves also happen to include some cool ones like Boomburst, Overdrive, and Sparkling Aria that are all really great options. Punk Rock also once again makes stats easier as well as providing some niche defensive utility in taking 1/2 damage from opposing sound moves.

As for what I don't want on the slate, I don't think Triage should be included at all. It's certainly an ability that would prevent Zeraora from coming in, but I think it's a bit disappointing when it comes to discouraging pivoting outside of that matchup. I share the same sentiment as others that Triage is more anti-offense than anti-pivot and there are still many fast pivots that could come in and be unbothered by our priority. Furthermore, we still have access to First Impression, a powerful priority option in its own right, and while not a 1:1 comparison to Triage Leech Life, it is nonetheless a great priority move that also allows us to use an even better ability in conjunction with it. This last point is subjective but I also believe Triage implies a purely physical route, likely setup, however the ability would do nothing to prevent us from Scald burns. In short I don't think Triage is a "bad" ability, there are absolutely benefits, but due to the competitive nature of this slate I believe there are other abilities that are both better in-game and more pro-concept, and because of these reasons I don't think Triage should be slated. I also agree with the majority of other opinions Voltage shared in his update post - Stakeout and Contrary seem especially hard to balance, there are better options than Analytic which arguably incentivizes teleport even more, Guts/Poison heal means we can't wear our boots, Tinted Lens I'm mostly indifferent about but I guess it could be good, and I don't think Natural Cure, Rattled, and Volt Absorb are impressive enough/successful enough in what they want to accomplish. Some abilities I intentionally did not bother mentioning but I also probably just forgot some, these are my thoughts though. Happy slating

 

[dex]

Alright, as promised, I'm going to now give a post here on the abilities as to what I am liking and not liking. This post will go into the abilities I feel good about slating, abilities I'm on the fence about, and abilities that I'm not excited about and would need more convincing. Please do not take this to be the final slate, as there are still two days here to discuss things. Please also be respectful in this discussion as well, especially if I have an opinion that you disagree with. Abilities are posted in (mostly) alphabetical order.



Abilities I am likely to slate

• Download
  • Much respect to our artists, but if this gets picked, it might be a little tricky for them. In any case, I kind of like Download a lot here since it gives us the opportunity to go Mixed simply by nature of what we switch into. Given our typing, it's a really nice way to give ourselves a bit of a power boost given that we're likely going to be running Boots if this ability gets slated.
• Neutralizing Gas
  • I think this one goes without saying. It's clearly pro-concept, there's been avid support for it from the get go, it is a unique spin on creating a Pokemon, and it provides CAP28 with unique means of satisfying its concept. I was initially worried that the discussion of abilities would be dominated by Neutralizing Gas, but I'm pleased to see that people are at least keeping an open mind. That said, the fact that this is a likely slate should come as a surprise to no one.
• Shield Dust
  • Preventing burn is going to be crucial to stop Blissey from beating us, and I really like this since you also avoid gross hax from Scald, Discharge, Lava Plume, or any random freezes that might matter late game. By having something like Shield Dust, while we don't give ourselves an immunity like we would with two other abilities, I think this is going to give us more room for flexibility down the line with respect to stats and movepool. Of course, this isn't the flashiest ability, but I think it works well with the concept given that a lot of the common pivoting mons have some form of move that can have secondary effects that are otherwise detrimental to the foe.
• Triage
  • I like the opportunities that we get from running Triage, especially since there is solid Bug STAB we can run with it. It gives us built-in priorities to attack faster pivots in the event that we're slow, and I really like the idea of being able to give ourselves built-in speed control here. I'm a little biased, but I think it also does a good job at letting us live a little longer while still chipping things. I realize that a lot of people don't think this would be great for the primary ability, but I think it's valid enough to slate.

Abilities I am on the fence about

• Magic Guard
  • I'll be honest, yesterday I was ok with slating this one, but now I'm a little on the fence. The issue is that while you're not taking any chip damages from hazards, allowing for a freer item choice, I can't help but see this going from "Speedbump" to "Magic Guard Life Orb attacker". But then again, we lack safe switch ins, so mitigating chip from hazards, weather and other effects is quite useful. I'm just wary of the the idea of giving CAP28 Magic Guard for one purpose, but then it gets used in a completely different way. But then again, maybe this concept does call for a Magic Guard Life Orb attacker. The other issue I have with it is that it doesn't help us at all with dealing with Scald burns and kind of forces us to go down a special path, as opposed to leaving our options open. Spoo's post is useful in providing differing viewpoints, however, I am still very torn by the listed Pros and Cons (especially when one pro effectively states that we need to be coming in a lot, which means that we would likely be pairing CAP28 with a number of its own pivoting partners).
• Natural Cure
  • You get a way to heal yourself from Burns from Scald, and Toxics from like everything not from Gen 8. Yes, we gain longevity in our means of getting around threats that we're supposed to handle, but there's part of me that is a little concerned with our utility being reliant on our own switching. I worry tat with this ability we could easily become a pivot ourselves. While that isn't necessarily anti-concept, I'm hesitant to say that that's definitely eh route we want to travel. Of course, there's a lot of merit in running it too.
• Punk Rock
  • I'm very close to putting this on the slate, but I think it's just very much locking us into a certain set of strategies that we'll have to deal with. I don't know if I have a problem with it a ton, but obviously I want to avoid poll jumping too. But I like the opportunities it has with both offensive, and potential mirror matchups. Like I said, I'm pretty close to slating it, but I need that last little push to send me over on it.
• Rattled
  • I like the idea of it, but I need more discussion before I'd feel comfortable slating it. It helps expand the list of mons we can switch into by effectively getting a speed boost from Knocks and U-turns, but I need to see more pushes for why.
• Tinted Lens
  • I go back and forth on Tinted Lens a lot here. It is definitely useful in helping our awkward STAB be threatening to Steel mons, for example, but then there's the fact that really, the mons we're trying to beat (Slows, Blissey already don't like our STABs, or don't necessarily resist them (Hippo, Rotom-W). Furthermore, it basically makes CAP28 become only dealt with by Fairies for our Dragon STAB, and that's kind of dangerous to me. There are pros and cons, but I'm hesitant to effectively slate this one.
• Water Absorb and Storm Drain
  • I alluded to this in my section on Shield Dust, but I'm a little hesitant to include one of these in the slate. Having a true immunity to water moves instead of dodging Scalds is something that I really want to see discussed a bit more. I would really like to slate one of these, though I understand that there may be voter redundancy as well with Shield Dust. Furthermore, there's the debate on whether we want a SpA boost, or to recover HP me. I haven't really made up my mind on which of these I WOULD slate, though I think I would be likely to bump one of these up through a good argument. Quziel's storm Drain post is really great at what I'm looking for though. But as always, avoiding Scald burns is good.

Abilities I am unlikely to slate

• Analytic and Stakeout
  • Before you prepare your rebuttals to my points here, please be aware that I get that discouraging hard switches with attacks sounds incredibly pro-concept upon first glance. It would effectively checkmate Pokemon into rather difficult situations that are very clearly good at preventing a pivot. That said, Mx and Deck Knight put it very well, and I share the same sentiment. Stake out and Analytic both encourage Teleport pivoters to effectively click Teleport to minimize damage being dealt. Given that CAP28 should be immediately threatening both of the Slowtwins and Blissey, I fail to see how, outside of some crazy moves and stats, that these mons aren't even more encouraged to click Teleport when they're up against CAP28.
    
    Then there's also just with Stakeout in general that I get very wigged out by. Stakeout is a slippery slope that is going to inevitably lead to us being ultimately very restricted in later stages of this project due to the sheer fact that Stakeout is incredibly powerful. As Mx put it, I have zero idea how we'd be able to make a properly balanced CAP by choosing Stakeout for our primary ability, especially when we're already trying to be putting a LOT of pressure on some of these fatter mons.
    
    If I'm slating one of these two, it would probably be Analytic, but I really need to see a strong argument as to why Teleport users aren't immediately incentivized to click Teleport, which is the exact opposite of our project's goals.
• Comatose
  • This feels like going to the extreme to avoid status. I feel like this doesn't give us much offensive utility in the means of stopping pivots though. I don't think it's likely I'll be putting this on the slate.
• Contrary
  • STAB Draco Meteor is no laughing matter, and it feels a bit overkill. I understand needing to break open a core, and removing the pivots from the chain as reach put it, but it just feels off to me. I see the merit on stopping Astro's Fire Lashes, and Kerf's Parting Shots, and in general being a nuisance to defoggers, but I just can't feel comfortable slating it given how easy it would be to spam Draco Meteor. While this ability is in this section, I would ABSOLUTELY love to see a reason to slate this guy, because there are merits, it's just that the movepool part feels very dangerous.
• Guts
  • This feels a lot like Comatose, but this time you do get some kind of offensive presence. I don't really like this if only because it only helps with avoiding status and punching holes. It's very simple and straight forward. While I think it probably would work to beat pivoting mons in general, I really think we can do better. Plus it really puts CAP28 on a timer the moment it comes in, which is kind of detrimental to accomplishing our goal.
• Poison Heal
  • I get why this was submitted, it effectively lets us avoid Scald burns and be all cool with some solid recovery. But as we can see with Snaelstrom, this ability does not compensate for a lackluster ability, and also like Snaelstrom, I fail to see how having this ability would help satisfy the concept.
• Simple
  • Simple on a mon that has the potential to have two of the best boosting moves in the game is scary, and is going to severely limit our options going down the line. I mean, I would love to make a mon like that but not here. There's also the fact that Draco would bring us to -4, and any kind of intimidate being extra bad for us. It's high risk, high reward, but I don't think that's quite the kind of playstyle we want here.
• Volt Absorb, Motor Drive and Lightning Rod
  • These abilities miss the point entirely. Against Zeraora, the foe is encouraged to Knock Off; against Rotoms, the foes is encouraged to do literally anything else like Burn, Toxic, or Pain Split for example.

I want to give my support and talk about why I don't support some of these abilities. In addition, I'd like to mention some abilities that aren't stated here that I think should be considered to be slated.

Support (Should definitely be slated):

Download: Download helps immensely in the never-ending quest to find an answer to + cores. Download's ability to make CAP28 into a threatening mixed attacker would make it stand apart from the other Dragons of the tier, and I'd love to see something like this wreak havoc.

Shield Dust: While I do admit that shield dust isn't as strong as other abilities, it's very on-concept in helping the war against Scald. I'd love to see it on CAP28, purely for its ability to guarantee safe switch-ins on our most common enemies.

Triage: The reasons Triage is good have already been said, as strong priority is a great way to deal with offensive pivots. This also somewhat mitigates the rocks weakness.

Meh (I see issues with these but I wouldn't mind if they were slated):

Neutralizing Gas: I'm much less hyped on this ability than everyone else, though I'm sure it'll be slated because of all the support it's gotten. Sure, it takes away Regenerator, but it doesn't do much else than that, and seriously damaging takes some serious stats without LO or a choice item. It's definitely a cool ability to play around with, and would be fun outside of just pivot scenarios, but I don't think it's as strong as people are making it out to be.

Magic Guard: The more I think about Magic Guard, the less I like it. Freeing up the item slot is fine, but it seems like more of a "generically strong ability" than something really concept-relevant.

Natural Cure: I originally really liked Natural Cure, but I see now that it encourages a loss of momentum, which can be deadly against pivot teams. It's helpful for sure, but it may not be what we want for CAP28.

Tinted Lens: After doing some calcs, Tinted Lens just isn't as strong as I thought it was. Hitting Steel types is helpful and all, but it's still not meaningful damage when going up against and .

Analytic: I don't like the general power of Stakeout, given that we'd need high stats to pressure . Analytic is the toned down version, and I like the idea that something is getting hit hard regardless of switching. It may be more concept-relevant than Stakeout in that Teleport might not always be the best idea, given Analytic is weaker than Stakeout.

Comatose: Being immune to statuses in general is pretty dang strong for this concept, I would just worry if this separated CAP28 enough from . That being said, the ability is very concept relevant.

Don't Support:

Punk Rock: It's just not as good as people are making it out to be, and it severely limits us in the moveset and stat stages.

Rattled: If anything, Justified is just better. Anyways, both just aren't consistent enough to consider, though I do like the idea of punishing U-turn.

Storm Drain/Water Absorb: We have a Water resist for a reason. Shield Dust does the job better.

Stakeout: It's a weird ability to get to work right, but I fear that it really does just force to click Teleport, which is pretty anti-concept.

Contrary: While Contrary Draco Meteor sounds incredibly fun, this would be hard to balance to say the least. The main reason this shouldn't be slated is that it just gives an incentive to click Teleport then switch to a faster counter.

Guts: I see why this could be good, but forcing CAP28 to run Flame Orb just sets it up to take a lot of chip damage, which isn't helping anyone.

Poison Heal: Again, I see why this could be good, but it's just too generically strong. Additionally, coming in on a Knock Off would be crippling.

Simple: While Simple Work Up is an absolutely legendary idea, -2 defense from Fire Lash and -2 attack from Intimidate are just too much to overcome.

Volt Absorb/Lighting Rod/Motor Drive: Again, CAP28 has an Electric resist for a reason. These abilities aren't particularly helpful.

Abilities Not Mentioned That Should Be Considered:

Adaptability: This is a great way to put big pressure on and the various Grass types on pivot teams without the drawbacks of Stakeout/Analytic. It still punishes switches in that they're gonna get hit pretty hard.

Stamina: I made a whole post about why Stamina is good against pivot teams. It may force us into being Specially biased given that it may give an incentive to come in on Scald, but it would definitely be a cool option to work with given CAP28's resistances to Grass, Water, and Electric.

I'll be back in the secondary ability discussion to pump up Corrosion again, but I don't see it getting slated for the primary ability, so I'm off that train for now.

 

[spoo]

Punk Rock: It's just not as good as people are making it out to be, and it severely limits us in the moveset and stat stages.

I'm not really sure I understand this point, if anything Punk Rock opens up possibilities for later stages, not limits them. While it's true that special moves are the only ones boosted by Punk Rock, the ability still has no issue finding place on a set with mixed offenses, so we certainly aren't limited into a role that is only a special attacker. We'd likely still have all/most of the same coverage moves that would be available if we chose any other ability, but Punk Rock presents us with additional moves such as Overdrive (better thunderbolt), Sparkling Aria (better hydro pump), and Boomburst that are unique to the ability. Furthermore, one of the main draws of Punk Rock is that it takes a load off of the stats stage because it's offensively boosting - calcs are boring but here are few to demonstrate what I mean

Hide

these calcs of course differ depending on the Slowking spread but I'm not even sure if there is a "standard" so I went with 252hp 136+ SpD which is what I have seen used the most

147 base SpaA with full investment (the highest a CAP has ever gone is 135!) is the minimum it would take to beat Slowking in two cycles (66% minimum damage), this would of course rise even higher if we were not +SpA nature
252+ SpA Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Slowking: 264-312 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

here is the same calc, now with Punk Rock - the minimum SpA drops dramatically to a base stat of only 101 (very reasonable)
252+ SpA Punk Rock Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Slowking: 265-312 (67.2 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

here it is once again with a non boosting nature, the minimum SpA rising slightly to 116 (still reasonable)
252 SpA Punk Rock Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Slowking: 265-312 (67.2 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I would argue that we actually place more limits on ourselves if we want to use our special bug STAB but don't have an ability that gives us a boost in that area. Anyways, didn't mean to turn the ability discussion into the stats discussion but I don't get how Punk Rock is limiting when it really only gives us more options to work with - like I said, a mixed attacker is still a very viable route, and is honestly preferred to a pure special attacker in my opinion.

I do agree that Adaptability should see more discussion though. I think it accomplishes similar things as Tinted Lens in that both abilities make our STABs more spammable but I'd like to see a breakdown of the two side-by-side. My only concern is that it would be tough to balance, because we'd likely need lower-ish stats so our STABs aren't overpowered but I can see our coverage options being somewhat underpowered by the same token. There are definitely ways to get around this, such as giving out only special options for STABs while our coverage options are all physical, but it's something to consider nonetheless. On the topic of Stamina, I don't have much to say about it other than it's another one of those "stop playing around and answer me" abilities that cuts through a lot of what pivoting tries to accomplish, and I'm a fan of that so it would be cool to see some more discussion on this one as well.

 

[reachzero]

I also feel that Triage is being seriously overrated for this concept--the best qualities of Triage (i.e. Leech Life, Strength Sap and priority recovery moves) are at their most effective against pure offensive teams, not the sort of bulkier, pivot-spam teams that CAP28 is supposed to be at its best against. In particular, the best attacks that would go with Triage are physical, but they cannot really punch through Tomohawk or Mandibuzz, two premier pivots, and we would still have a difficult time switching into Scald. I have little doubt that a Triage Bug/Dragon could be an effective Pokemon--it would help against fast, frailer teams, and certainly against Zeraora. However, the Pokemon that are most being targeted by this concept would care much less about it, and the faster-paced teams interested in actually breaking through pivot teams would be the most harmed. In other words, while it is not dangerously powerful like Tinted Lens or Stakeout, Triage is aggressively anti-concept.

 

[Amamama]

I already did a post on this, but I want to add to my previous post, that Shield dust Bug/Dragon is preeeety similar to Conatose Ghost/Dragon.
In our main matchup ghost dragon is better than bug dragon. Both deal SE damage against The slows, but ghost dragon is also immune to seismic toss, blisseys main Attack.
While Bug dragon technically Deals much better with dark types, when we take a look at dark types in the tier, we’ll see that the two most prominent dark types both are neutral to bug attacks.
Other significant matchups with important pivots are tied. while we don’t have an actual weakness to knock off, we still fear it nearly as much as a ghost type, while ghost is completely immune to fighting type rather than just resisting it.
Ghost/Dragon still resists Fire types, big dragon doesn’t.

Now consider the ability of Paj and shield dust.
Comatose is complete Status immunity. Blissey cannot do anything at all to Pajantom, it still could toxic 28 even with Shield dusted just one example.
Pajs Defense can be dropped by fire Lash, but it also resists it.

Stats are still up in the air.
BUT shield dust is supposed to make physical sets viable. Guess who’s got great physical attacking stats?
Considering our most important matchups we are very likely to want some good special bulk. Guess who’s got some pretty decent Sprcial defenses?
Considering that we might want to go mixed. Are we going to outspeed Paj? I doubt it right now.

So why would I ever pick 28 for a team over Paj if it’s bound to be worse at doing what it’s meant to do in almost every regard?
It’s not going to be that we might able to run SPA moves, because Why did we pick shield dust then of we can do that considerably better with other abilities.
Some pretty fantastic moves maybe, utility that Paj doesn’t offer maybe?

And then again there are still FOUR other dragons in the Tier that all have pretty fantastic assets.

TLDR: if we pick shield dust, we probably make Pajantom but worse.

Now that I got that off my table. Just a quick side note on Adaptability vs. Tinted Lens
Adaptability does create more pressure by increasing the power of our STABs so that resists won’t matter as much, while weaknesses will take even harder blows. This could mean well need overall less power during stats stage. It also means a relative power drop of possible coverage moves, if we ever intend to use such with this ability.
That is a problem that Tinted lens doesn’t have. The power of the moves is technically the same but resists on our STABS are discounted, which means saver to use stabs, but also still usable coverage if we should ever need it.