CAP 28 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[Darek]

Like many others have also said, I don't really see the point in abilities punishing contact or providing an electric immunity. The most common U-turners, , , and can all just OHKO us with their stabs and the potential reward of a little chip or potential status isn't really worth the health we lose, nor the potential risk of coming in on a non-U-turn move. As for Volt Switch, we still can't take Knock Off from or Ice Beam from . Although stopping their pivots may be nice, I can't see any situation where Neutralizing Gas isn't preferred. Still, Motor Drive may have enough potential benefits to justify the risk of switching in on these moves.

That being said, I have similar problems with Defiant and Competitive. On paper, these abilities can create great offensive pressure against Defog, Fire Lash, and Intimidate, but in practice, I doubt that this will even be remotely reliable:

0 Atk Astrolotl Fire Lash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 139-165 (44.6 - 53%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Astrolotl Fire Lash vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 208-246 (66.8 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 348-410 (111.8 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 162-192 (52 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

's Fire Lash 2hkos us(minimum rolls give us 44.6 + 66.8%), so we can't switch in and take advantage of the boost. Against Defog, can easily OHKO us with Brave Bird and 's Foul Play 2hkos even with minimum attack from CAP28. As for 's Intimidate, Neutralizing Gas also deals with it and overall serves us better. It is possible that the sheer power of a +2 boost can justify the risk of switching in, but realistically I think that the occasions where this will happen are few and far between, especially with the most common removal being Rapid Spin.

Another ability we should be weary about is Download. While I really liked it as an ability for the primary ability stage, now that we have our stats Download has some extremely dangerous implications. We have 135/115 offenses, and giving CAP28 a free choice-item boost on switch-in is pretty insane. While the power level may open up a lot of great possibilities for an HDB set, it could easily get out of hand if we opt for Life Orb or a choice item. For instance:

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 121-143 (39.8 - 47%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Equilibra: 216-255 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


After some chip even will be unable to switch into a Download-boosted banded Megahorn, and this is considering that both and resist Megahorn. Even without any coverage, Download could easily get out of hand really fast.

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As for the abilities I do support, I do think that Sheer Force and Thick Fat are both interesting options here.

Sheer Force gives us the same boost that Punk Rock does to Bug Buzz without torturing our artists. I also really like Sheer Force because of how it favors special sets, as our physical STABs of Megahorn, Dragon Claw, and Outrage don't receive the boost and potential special coverage like Flamethrower or Thunderbolt will receive the boost whereas most physical coverage would not. My only concern is the implications of Life Orb boosted Sheer Force, but I would say that taking hazard chip instead of Life Orb chip still more or less balances it out.

Thick Fat is interesting because it helps expand the list of mons we can beat, specifically , , and (kinda). Currently, the list of mons that CAP28 can switch in on reliably is pretty small, so I think that Thick Fat could help remedy that. Like Quziel said, we already handle , , and well with our typing, stats, and NGas, so we can afford to use our secondary ability to beat other pivots.

 

[Deck Knight]

Would a second competitive ability help CAP28 accomplish its goals of being a "roadblock"?

I would echo what jas61292 said and say Neutralizing Gas is an extraordinary tool for targeting passive pivots and Regenerator walls, and combined with our stats makes CAP 28 immediately threatening and disruptive to those targets. It also makes a number of Levitators like the Rotom-Formes and Hydreigon suspectible to Spikes coming in. In this sense, overshadowing it is a tall order, and we want to avoid that. I think there are two abilities that could overshadow it, which I will expain below:

Storm Drain and Lightning Rod/Motor Drive: I think the stat combination with these moves and their function in reversing momentum on Scald/Flip Turn and completely blocking Volt Switch make them just a little too viable for consideration. I believe Water Absorb or Volt Absorb would be more acceptable, limited versions of this capacity that can improve these matchups without potentially overshadowing Neutralizing Gas.

Which abilities from the Secondary Ability List would help CAP28 further?

As mentioned, I think Water Absorb and Volt Absorb provide adequate niche options for Scald/Flip Turn and Volt Switch respectively without the real possibility to overshadow Neutralizing Gas. The last Ability I think would fit in a similar pivot-punishing role would be Rattled. The Speed Boost upon Intimidate and weak Knock Off / U-turns is the only real viable way to "punish" those moves (/Intimidate). One thing I said way back in Cyclohm's process in arguing for Static as a Second Ability was they the physical bulk on Cyclohm would allow you to proc it repeatedly. 85/60/85 Defenses are not paper thin, but they are not the stats needed to actually capitalize on a contact move. Rattled does this in the most concept-appropriate way by specifically targeting U-turn, Intimidate, and weaker Knock Offs.

Are there any additional matchups we can better address with a secondary ability?

All other Abilities can be broadly categorized as "increase power / accuracy." While I do like the idea of say, more accurate Sleep moves to further shut down Teleport, that can also be achieved through Taunt. Volt Switch and U-turn can be countermanded by phazing. Basically, there is a move that already exists that would provide the functionality of a move a secondary ability would otherwise boost. Compound Eyes is my favorite of these for making Megahorn, Draco Meteor, and more powerful special options viable, but I can't recommend it strongly enough as a secondary when it doesn't specifically target concept-relevant threats.

There is one other ability that is kind of out of left field, but hear me out: Sand Rush. With Heavy-Duty Boots being the go-to item for so many of these pivots, Sand from Hippowdon (and sometimes Tyranitar) is the most consistent method of residual damage in the metagame. Bug/Dragon STABs do not much lend themselves to a sweeper, but crucially CAP 28 resists Water moves aimed at Hippowdon and Fighting or Ground moves aimed at Tyranitar. Sand Rush provides an immunity to Sand damage and a speed advantage over Dragons on a Pressure list, at the cost of a team slot to support it. This makes CAP 28 a much more dangerous threat to those pivots and to its Pressure List, and would still compete with Neutralizing Gas 28 on a sand / Hippo Team because NGas shuts off their supply of Defense while Sand Rush vastly reduces the amount of hard pivots or switch-ins on a Teleport turn.
Sand Force also grants a sand damage immunity while boosting potential Ground coverage against Toxapex and Krilowatt, acting as a built-in Life Orb.
Overcoat would be a much weaker version of this thought that also happens to also nullify Amoonguss's Spore. We'd rather be denying it Regenerator healing, and if CAP 28 is Asleep Giga Drain does pitiful damage.

 

[Yay61]

Would a second competitive ability help CAP28 accomplish its goals of being a "roadblock"?
The most important thing in my opinion is that whatever secondary ability we get does not limit the strength of our neutralising gas set. Neutralising gas has the potential to be a very strong ability that could punish a lot of defensive pivots, but looking just at our typing and stats so far it needs a solid moveset to be really impactful. It would be a complete waste if this anti regen mon couldn’t hope to deal any damage to Toxapex and the like because our secondary ability stopped us from getting good enough coverage. For this reason I dislike download, as looking at our specially defensive targets, the free choice band boost can only limit the kinds of coverage, boosting and utility we can give to our primary set. I’m also hesitant on sheer force and punk rock as I would rather simply have the option of special boosting moves on a ngas set. However, these abilities do at least allow neutralising gas to have freedom on the physical side so in the end I would be fine with them if they won.

My top abilities at the moment are probably one of the scald immunities and motor drive. Dodging burns, with the other benefits of whatever ability it is just adds a small amount of reliability and benefit that could be valued on certain teams and wouldn’t restrict our movepool either. I do think that speed boosting abilities, especially rattled, will not be very impactful given that few faster pokemon would try to switch in regardless and a speed boost does nothing to help break the walls that would normally switch in. Motor drive at least has the distinct benefit of forcing zeraora and Krilowatt to think twice each time they volt switch which is very useful even if cap28 doesn’t end up switching in to them. I also think it’s notable that cap28 and libra, another common electric immunity are each weak to different coverage from kril and zera which makes it more difficult for these pokemon to safely predict and pivot.

 

[Jewvia]

To make a counterpoint against all of these anti-Scald-burn suggestions like Water Absorb, Shield Dust or Guts. We would be taking the second anti-scald ability specifically to deal with Scald and not have it hamper our offensive pressure. Rather than have an ability that exists to deal with this specific case, we could instead have an ability that focuses on boosting our special effectiveness in a less restrictive manner.

To repost some calcs from the spread submission:

Hide

252 SpA Abomasnow Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 156+ SpD Slowking: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Abomasnow Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 186-218 (47.2 - 55.3%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Abomasnow Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Slowking: 432-510 (109.6 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Abomasnow Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Slowking: 288-342 (73 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

We already have a perfectly workable Special Attacking stat that allows us to 2HKO Slowking whether or not we are burned. A secondary ability that further enables our Specially Offensive playstyle, whether or not we are hit by Scald or burned, allows us to continue to counter Slowking while also hitting other threats not covered by something like Storm Drain. Abilities such as Punk Rock or Sheer Force that universally boost our Specially offensive damage output achieve this goal. If we want something to punish Defog/Parting Shot users, Competitive is a powerful choice too. (Kerfluffle can't use Parting Shot or we go +4 SpA, Mandibuzz or Corviknight can't use Defog or we go +2. Intimidate is countered again as a bonus, not as the goal like with anti-Scald)

Overall, we want our secondary ability to increase the range of who we counter rather than just be second choices for beating up on things we already hit hard. We have high physical attack, Bug STAB, NGas, Slowking is already dead. We need a reason to take this secondary ability, and "it counters Slowking" is not a good reason to pick burn mitigation over universal ability mitigation that already counters Slowking.

 

[escarlata]

Guts, Flare Boost, and Poison Heal all have a clear and present drawback; as shown in the case of Snaelstrom, a mon that has to come in multiple times a game (we absolutely do) that is relatively easy to force out (we are), and is SR weak really does not make much use out of an item that precludes Heavy Duty Boots.

Obviously Guts users work best with a status Orb, but we don't necessarily have to run an Orb to take full advantage of it. Unlike Poison Heal which necessitates Toxic Orb, Guts can be useful solely from the pressure it puts on Slowking and Toxapex. Much like how NG strongly discourages blindly clicking Teleport, Guts works as a way for CAP28 to discourage blindly clicking Scald or Toxic without giving full immunity to the type. Note how NG is one of those self-declaring abilities, so the lack thereof alone is able to put pressure on aforementioned pivots to be cautious about spreading status.
The fact that we are also weak to SR means Flame Orb Guts is less likely to overshadow HDB NG as the main set, but HDB Guts is still something that doubles down and nullify the effectiveness of our targets in a different way.

Edit: Oh, speaking of abilities that doubles down on the same targets, there's also Trace. Now that our stat spread is out and we are viable at mixed attacking, Trace becomes very interesting on a special attacking set by allowing us to come in, tank the Burn/Toxic and sustain ourselves via the Traced Regenerator to always absorb momentum from those defensive pivots.

 

[theotherguytm]

Ok, I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I would like to share an OLT finals replay that caught my eye:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-516897
In this game, Empo brings pivot spam feat. Future Sight Slowking ie: the exact type of team that our concept is aimed at defeating. Eo on the other side gives a masterclass in defeating this type of strategy, with the silent star of the show being Eo's Neutralizing Gas Weezing-G. It cripples Magic Guard Clef in the earlygame, forcing Empo to sac it, and repeatedly is able to prevent Tangrowth regaining heath by Regenerator while crippling it with Toxic Spikes. After that, it's a simple matter of outplaying the Volt Switch spam and Eo's Urshifu-Single Strike is able to cleave through Empo's crippled defensive core.

So what does this replay tell us?
Are we on the right track with regard to our concept? Yes.
Is our interpretation of the concept feasible? Yes.
Is our Stealth Rock weakness 100% crippling? No, just look at how much work Weezing-G is able to put in despite being Tricked a Sticky Barb Turn 1, while still finishing with over half its health.
Do we need another Ability? Well...
Possible abilities: Levitate, Neutralizing Gas, Misty Surge
Would a second competitive ability help CAP28 accomplish its goals of being a "roadblock"?
Maybe. Neutralizing Gas is an amazing ability... When it works. But it's also very targeted. The key thing I worry about is not pulling our weight when we don't encounter these Regen-heavy/pivot spam teams. With Clefable currently banned from CAP, probably the most Neutralizing Gas can do in certain matchups is force Levitating mons to take Spikes damage (of which only Stratagem is on our C&C list and it probably can't switch in). In the case of Weezing-G, Levitate usually overshadows it as the Ability of choice. So a second ability would have to be good enough to pull weight in certain matchups, while not being so good it overshadows our primary ability.

Which abilities from the Secondary Ability List would help CAP28 further?
First, some suggestions that I think are not quite there.
Sticky Hold is what I see as "the too safe option". It still won't let us switch into Rillaboom (which is honestly sad), but it does let us take Knocks from more defensive mons like Tangrowth, Ferrothorn and Toxapex. There has to be a better way of doing this though...
Shield Dust is another "safe" option. Realistically it's inferior to everything that makes us immune/resistant to Burns outside fringe cases like Discharge (We aren't staying in on Ice Beam, Air Slash, Rock Slide, Hurricane etc).
I think Snaelstrom has already given us a way to evaluate Poison Heal as a "no". What people seem to forget with Poison Heal is the only two "real" Pokemon that get it are Gliscor and Breloom, two Pokemon that are absurdly good even without Poison Heal and are naturally hazard-resilient. It's a very good Ability, but it still needs the correct user and isn't something any Pokemon can make work.
Give a 135 Atk Pokemon with two physical 120 BP STABs Guts and it will use Flame Orb. Obstagoon should be a go-to example here: a potential pivot with Parting Shot, a balanced stat distribution, a strong Ability in Defiant and an extremely diverse movepool that includes a pre-nerf King's Shield clone that drops Def and it can also flex STAB Reckless Double-Edge... Wait it gets Guts? Slap that Flame Orb on.
The concept of a mixed attacker with Download is also slightly scary. Anyone remember having to EV their mons so Genesect wouldn't get a SpA boost and then it turning out to be a Shift Gear set anyway? I'm not saying we're about to make a BoltBeam spamming pivot or anything, but just in general Download+mixed offenses is close to Intrepid Sword levels of busted since it doesn't matter on which side you get the boost. The only other user of Download is Porygon, which has no mixed capabilities to speak of and gets Adaptability on its final evo anyway.

One Ability I would like to support is Flash Fire. It's along the same train of thought as Thick Fat, but I haven't seen anyone seriously discussing switching into Kyurem or Syclant with it! Rather than removing a weakness we'll never switch into even neutrally, it makes us completely immune to Fire. Heatproof follows similar logic, but we trade a total immunity for halved burn damage, which I think is very useful. Burns do still half our attack, so this Ability fits mixed/special sets that don't fear burns better.

Another Ability that I think can complement Neutralizing Gas is Sand Force. Left-field, yes absolutely. Does it make sense? Yes 100%. It will never overshadow Neutralizing Gas outside dedicated Sand teams and allows us to clobber Toxapex with boosted coverage. I'm down for that. Sand Rush is a bit of a yikes though, considering we're faster than Excadrill!

Finally, I would like to lend my support to Synchronize. Another left-field option, but given most of the things that are inflicting us with burns aren't immune to them... Share and enjoy.

 

[Wolf134]

I would like to lend my support for Stakeout as a secondary ability principally because of its inherent synergy with any damaging phazing moves should we implement them. This is on account of the fact that Stakeout doubles the power of CAP28's moves (if it were to wield such an ability) whenever an opposing pokemon switches IN on us (which is quite favorable for us, barring type immunities, given Teleport's -4 priority and phazing moves' -6 priority). This means that Stakeout would help us to punish Teleport without overshadowing Neutralizing Gas. This also ensures that our artists can at least breathe easier in redesigning their work.

 

[quziel]

(this is a slightly polljumpy argument, but I think assuming Outrage is quite safe)

252+ Atk Choice Band Stakeout Heracross Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 188-222 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 94-111 (28.1 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

66.4+33.2+12.5 (SR) = 112.1

vs a 4x Bug resistant Fairy:
252+ Atk Choice Band Stakeout Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Togekiss: 153-180 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stakeout Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kerfluffle: 187-221 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Stakeout is too strong given our 135 attack stat, and means that there is not a single safe switchin to this mon barring 4x bug resistant fairy types (assuming we get Outrage + some Bug STAB). Choosing it would require cutting coverage and STAB moves to such a degree that the Neutralizing Gas set would be completely crippled. I do not think Stakeout is feasible. Analytic is still a bit worrisome, but doesn't have that sheer nuclear power, so maybe its feasible and maybe it wouldn't require gutting offensive options.

Flash Fire ignores why I think Thick Fat is so nice; beating Krilowatt (sorta), and focuses entirely on beating Astrolotl, which, while admirable, is a reduction in scope that I don't think is necessary. Because it gives up on Kril, I don't support it. Heatproof ignores that matchup as well.

 

[G-Luke]

I don't get why so much pro Stakeout arguments are suddenly popping up..... after we now have a 135 Atk stat. After I tried arguing that this ability is pro concept, that it deserves to be slated, and even if its a bit extreme, Analytic is a worthy replacement, it fell on deaf ears. Only for now to be leading secondary ability discussion with our current star outline? I thank quziel for dropping these Stakeout calcs, because Stakeout post statline is simply dumb as bricks. Analytic is probably still safe though, as everything with Analytic has similar attacking stats (around the 130 - 140 ramge).

Man Bug/Dragon sucks ass. I'm this close to throwing out the towel and argue Quiver Dance and U-turn lol.

 

[jas61292]

Analytic is probably still safe though, as everything with Analytic has similar attacking stats (around the 130 - 140 ramge).

Personally, I am against damage boosting abilities in general, as I feel they will either be too powerful and overshadow Neutralizing Gas, or they will not be good enough and will be a waste. But with that said, I am especially worried about comments like this one, as I think it outright ignores just how dangerous these abilities can be. Analytic in particular is one that we have experience with, and we know just how terrifying it can be. Volkraken has it, and with a Choice Specs attached, that thing practically had no switch ins. Now, I say had because the removal of Hidden Power was very much a hinderance for it, but even still, this is a mon that, with just a few layers of hazards on the field, can't even be switched into safely by Blissey, despite it using neutral hitting special attacks.

All this is to say that abilities like Analytic are freaking dangerous, and should not be taken lightly. Yes, most existing mons with it have high offenses, but with the exception of Volkraken and its terrifying power, they all lack something: a combination of that high offensive stat with high BP STAB moves. Magnezone technically has Thunder, but its typically going to be relying on Thunderbolt and Flash Cannon. Porygon-Z never uses Analytic, because it has better abilities, but even if it did, its best STAB is the 80 BP Tri Attack. Beheeyem has lower SpA and has to rely on Psychic. Starmie has Hydro Pump, but it also has only 100 SpA. And Watchog is Watchog. Literally the only mon even close to comparable to us with our stats and typing is our own Volkraken, and that mon is still incredibly difficult to switch into, even when it is not a great meta choice. And unlike Volkraken, there are no mons, bar Shedinja, that boast immunities to one of our types. As far as I'm concerned something like Analytic would force us to consider not granting the most powerful moves of our typing, and require us to be ultra conservative with coverage moves, which would drastically hinder Neutralizing Gas sets.

I honestly can't see any good way for us to have any offensive boosting ability that affects our physical attacks without this kinda stuff being an issue, but especially not one with as big a boost to as many moves as Analytic.

 

[earl]

And unlike Volkraken, there are no mons, bar Shedinja, that boast immunities to one of our types.

uh, fairy-types

Oh you meant no immunities for Bug. Regardless, still a very easily resisted type (I'd imagine every team has at least 2 resists, probably 3) and with our 2 STABs having very redundant coverage this CAP with have to heavily predict with coverage to properly punish switch-ins. I can't see Analytic being too strong on this.

 

[psykokitty]

I would like to lend my support for Stakeout as a secondary ability principally because of its inherent synergy with any damaging phazing moves should we implement them. This is on account of the fact that Stakeout doubles the power of CAP28's moves (if it were to wield such an ability) whenever an opposing pokemon switches IN on us (which is quite favorable for us, barring type immunities, given Teleport's -4 priority and phazing moves' -6 priority). This means that Stakeout would help us to punish Teleport without overshadowing Neutralizing Gas. This also ensures that our artists can at least breathe easier in redesigning their work.

Just as a note, Teleport has -6 priority, not -4. As much as I was/still am a fan of Stakeout (yes, even with our high attack stat), this argument kind of falls flat. I doubt it will make the slate anyways, as it didn't for Primary Ability.

 

[jas61292]

uh, fairy-types

Oh you meant no immunities for Bug. Regardless, still a very easily resisted type (I'd imagine every team has at least 2 resists, probably 3) and with our 2 STABs having very redundant coverage this CAP with have to heavily predict with coverage to properly punish switch-ins. I can't see Analytic being too strong on this.

Yes, I did mean Bug. And while its true, there are a lot of Bug resists, a lone resistance is really not enough. You really need a double resist for that kind of power. Astrolotl? 2HKOed by Megahorn. Equilibra? Potentially 2HKOed without significantly higher than normal Def investment. Rotom-H? 2HKOd. Dragapult? Chance of a OHKO.

And while there are a decent number of double resists out there, unless that double resist is Togekiss, its a big risk to switch in. Tomohawk for instance gets blasted by Outrage. And Kerfluffle is frail enough to lose over a third of its health to a double resisted move, and potentially be OHKOed if we have a strong enough neutral hitting coverage move.

Now, I'm not saying that such a Pokemon as this with Analytic would be impossible to handle. But what I am saying is that this kind of power would be impossible to ignore, and could greatly limit the kinds of stuff we can allow in movepool, hampering what we can do with our primary ability.

 

[Voltage]

Gonna comment on some of the abilities I've seen brought up.

WRT Stake Out vs. Analytic. Quziel really showed it best, that doubling power on the switch in general is really dangerous anjd I'm hesitant to say that it's a safe secondary ability, even with Fairies resisting one of our STABs and being immune to the other. I'm personally much more comfortable with Analytic since the multiplier is only 1.3x. I still think both abilities aren't great for this concept as a whole, but I'm much more of a fan of Analytic than Stakeout.

I think Sand based abilities are a really interesting niche and I'm glad Deck Knight brought them up. I will say that as a voter and player, I think I prefer Sand Force over Sand Rush given our speed being higher than Excadrill at the moment, but I would gladly enjoy seeing more discussion of these two abilities as a whole since they bring a really interesting discussino of how weather might be used to stop pivots as well.

I know there's been a lot of discussion around immunity-granting abilities and I was genuinely curious if people think that abilities such a Storm Drain, Water Absorb or Volt Absorb would overshadow NGas a a whole. I know that wthere's been discussion already on why it would or wouldn't be useful, but I haven't seen much talk about whether or not they'd actually pull a Cawmodore here.

Anyways, keep it up folks :]

 

[earl]

Sand Force sounds pretty worthless. The only real benefit I can see is soundly 2HKOing Toxapex with Earthquake, but in the process of losing NGas CAP28 can no longer hit Equilibra with the now-boosted Earthquake. Sand itself is a nice way to chip down a few pivots, but I don't think giving CAP28 a glorified Sand immunity is the way to encourage it on Sand cores. Can't see it being used over Neutralizing Gas, considering it makes you anti-Steel coverage useless against a popular Steel-type, and the other 2 boosted types are very redundant with our STABs.

 

[quziel]

I'm sorta thinking it through, and I'm not convinced that Sand based abilities are any good for us for a couple reasons.

The first is simple; I am not certain that sand would prefer Sand Rush CAP 28 over Neutralizing Gas given its need to sorta clear out stuff like Slowbro and Tomohawk to win game. Given that we're primarily physical, and I suspect any Sand Rush CAP 28 to be almost entirely physical, nullifying Tomohawk's Intimidate is worth legitimately so much for us. Neutralizing Gas vs Slowbro is pretty clear cut, and removing that basically opens up the game for Excadrill. There is a case where we get physical setup, and we run Sand Rush 28 as a sweeper for sand teams, but I am unsure of that given the limitations that NGas places upon us regardless w.r.t. movepool.

The second is a bit more complex; I do not think that Sand would be a relevant playstyle if Sand Rush ends up being good on 28, so the question of whether its worth running Sand Rush over NGas is sorta sidestepped; we're buffing a playstyle that even post buff is unlikely to be strong. So I'm just left with the issue of Sand Rush vs Neutralizing Gas on sand being a 50/50 (sand really hates Slowbro), and Sand not being good enough to justify the focus.

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Neutralizing Gas is pretty damn good, and I really doubt that Storm Drain, Water Absorb, or Volt Absorb will overshadow it. Neutralizing Gas is so good that its a reason to use the mon on a team all by itself, as seen by OU and Weezing-Galar teams. While Storm Drain, Water Absorb, and Volt Absorb are all good abilities, and definitely help shore up our matchups vs threats we should beat, they aren't at the team defining level of NGas. For that reasons these small defensive buffs are minor enough that they're safe, but similarly to the above, I'm unsure they're good enough.

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Punk Rock is the offensive boost that I feel is most safe at the current time. I've played a few games on the test server vs Mx and it felt, well whelming. Its a minor boost to Bug Buzz, and opens up a few sound moves eg Overdrive, which are really just minor buffs to existing coverage options (Overdrive's 104 BP vs Thunderbolts 90 BP, Sparkling Aria's 100% accuracy vs Hydro Pump's 100). Overall it felt like it opened up a bit better Pex matchup, allowing 28 to directly switch into Pex, which is something it struggles a bit now. Very minor, and again, unlikely to see use.

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I don't think there's ever a world where you use trace. Shutting off Regenerator is worth so much more than copying Regenerator, and similarly copying Chlorophyll is worth only slightly more than shutting it down. This ability is functionally a very minor buff to your weather matchup at the expense of sacking your incredibly strong ability to choke Regen spam.

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Rattled feels very difficult to actualize, but I imagine it would play similarly to Motor Drive; instead of getting +1 speed from Volt, you get +1 speed from Knock Off. The issue sorta being that you get to do this legitimately once before dying. Other Knock Offs are used by regen mons (Tangrowth, Toxapex) so you'd prefer to have Neutralizing Gas, and Intimidate is imo a bit of a wash. I guess I just don't see it being impactful enough to be run, whereas Motor Drive definitely could be (Volt Immunity is worth a ton).

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I think Sturdy may have real potential as a silly but worthwhile option. If we want an ability that prevents Slowking from going into something frail, something that would otherwise threaten an OHKO, there's few abilities that do this better. This is perhaps the only ability I can think of that makes Slowking itself want to stay in and click scald, and failing that to go out to a mon like Tomo instead of Zeraora/Urshifu. This also like, is the ability that is most focused on the short game (where Ngas struggles), so it has a compelling use case there.

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My main takeaway is that any secondary ability we give it barring literally like Stakeout or Analytic (both of these scare me) is going to be a niche and very minor buff that helps 28 out on very specific team structures, or really just makes its Pex matchup a bit better (this is very valid). Under these criteria the secondaries I like the most are:

Punk Rock
Competitive
Motor Drive
Storm Drain

 

[dex]

This is a mega post, detailing my opinions on pretty much everything that's been subbed.

I tested every ability on 3 qualities:

1. Is it concept-relevant?
2. Would it overshadow Neutralizing Gas?
3. Would it be at least somewhat used despite how good Neutralizing Gas is?

That being said, these are the submissions I think are exceptional and should be slated.

Thick Fat - I love this a lot, maybe because it's great on CAP28 and it's something I would never have thought of. Improving the matchup is a big boost for this ability, and while I don't know if it helps into as much as it has been made out to, it still does somewhat. All in all, an excellent change of pace ability to keep the opponent guessing before CAP28 gets sent out.

Competitive - Competitive is more, uh, competitive than Defiant because of CAP28's already ludicrous Attack stat. Boosting SpA from Intimidate makes CAP28 a feared check, which is one avenue of pivots CAP28 could still struggle in. Also, I would like to note that Competitive would make CAP28 exceptionally good on Sticky Web teams, which have some merit in dealing with pivoting, so I think this ability provides CAP28 with a more expanded niche.

Storm Drain - Pretty much the "no u" of abilities, the idea is that CAP28 comes in on a Scald from a hoping to burn it, only to realize just what a huge mistake it's made. I like it for how it changes the matchup, and could see it getting situational use if the team already has some mons that pressure on it. Additionally it really helps the matchup, which is quite important since N-Gas isn't as helpful in the face of Recover.

Download - A lot has been said about Download in this thread. It's concept relevant like no other ability, but given our stats it may be a little too powerful. I still haven't decided quite how I feel about it, but for now I still support it. There's great counterplay involved when dealing with a Download mon, and I don't think it is so powerful as to overshadow Neutralizing Gas. It does, however, preclude some boosting moves from being allowed, which is unfortunate. This is the ability I would least mind if it didn't get slated of these 5.

Skill Link - People have been pretty quiet about Skill Link, but I think there should be some discussion into it, since people seem to be favoring offensive abilities for this. Skill Link gives a small boost in power (BP 120/80 -> BP 125/125) which could never be construed as being broken. It works very well with setup, an option that has been discussed at length as being good for CAP28, and gives the small added bonus of tearing apart substitute. I could see Skill Link being used here and there as a surprise factor.

These are some that have gotten some support that I really don't like.

Rattled - This has been talked about Ad Nauseam, but CAP28 cannot take more than a couple physical hits with its stats. Rattled shouldn't be an option purely for that.

Anti-Contact - Same as above.

Motor Drive/Volt Absorb - We picked a Dragon typing for a reason. Part of it was for the Electric resistance. I do not see how this is more valuable than Storm Drain.

Stakeout - Just way too strong. Way, way, way too strong.

Flash Fire - While I appreciate what it does for the matchup, I think Thick Fat is better here for its added bonus of helping out against

Sand Abilities - I fail to see the concept relevance of these. Additionally I don't see a situation on a sand team where Neutralizing Gas isn't better.

Trace - Trace would be a cool ability... if Neutralizing Gas wasn't our primary. Neutralizing Gas is almost always better in the war against pivots.

Synchronize - A burn on a Slowking or Toxapex really doesn't matter, and a Toxic on a Blissey matters even less.

Guts/Quick Feet/Flare Boost/Poison Heal - This precludes CAP28 from wearing HDB, and would open it up to a ton of chip damage that would would hurt its ability to be an anti-pivot.

These are the ones I think are meh. I'd be ok with it if one or two of these abilities got slated.

Sticky Hold - Sticky Hold is, well, not great. It's nice to be able to keep HDB, not nice because all Knock Offs will be boosted into CAP28's weak physical defenses.

Shield Dust - Man I wish Shield Dust was better. It's definitely my favorite of the ones listed as meh. I just acknowledge that Storm Drain is probably the better choice.

Analytic - Analytic has the potential to be very strong, but I don't think it would be so strong as to eclipse Neutralizing Gas in usage.

Sturdy - The idea of this is interesting, albeit hard to stretch it into concept relevance. My question for this ability is this: will CAP28 KO back without access to good priority? Also how does this help against , a common user of Rocky Helmet?

Punk Rock - Yeah, yeah, Punk Rock is a cool ability, death to the artists, I get it. If Punk Rock ends up winning, there needs to be a serious conversation about what the sound moves provide in terms of coverage and whether or not that's balanced.

Natural Cure - It's just ok. I think giving CAP28 Refresh during Moves would be a better option.

Sheer Force - It's sorta good? Not being able to run LO kinda sucks, but Bug and Dragon don't have too many moves with added effects, so I could see this staying in its place as a secondary ability to Neutralizing Gas.

Compound Eyes - Man this would be cool. This introduces Sleep Powder sets to CAP28, which would be a great, different way of punishing switches. Better Megahorn, usable Dragon Rush, and potential access to Hurricance and Thunder make this ability attractive.

Water Compaction - I know I subbed this and no one talked about it, but it does present some interesting ideas. The main reason Storm Drain is good is that it punishes the Scald from a trying to burn our beefy Attack CAP28. Water Compaction is a different way to punish Scald, patching up CAP28's weak physical defense and potentially entrenching itself on the field for the long haul with Leech Life. I don't see this being broken or even outpacing Neutralizing Gas with the existence of , , and in the metagame, but it would be a great way of stopping the pivoting and forcing the opponent to stop switching around and deal with you head on.

 

[Dece1t]

Guts/Quick Feet/Flare Boost/Poison Heal - This precludes CAP28 from wearing HDB, and would open it up to a ton of chip damage that would would hurt its ability to be an anti-pivot.

I completely disagree. You can still run HDB sets and discourage toxic/scald spread with those abilities. They're still very pro-concept abilities. If someone fails to run HDB in place of the various orbs, in my opinion that's a net loss that isn't worth running in the current hazard-heavy metagame

 

[quziel]

I completely disagree. You can still run HDB sets and discourage toxic/scald spread with those abilities. They're still very pro-concept abilities. If someone fails to run HDB in place of the various orbs, in my opinion that's a net loss that isn't worth running in the current hazard-heavy metagame

The issue is more that the best way to play around a Guts/Flame Orb abuser that is likely using contact attacks is to directly pivot into Rocky Helmet Tomohawk. Basically rather than discouraging pivoting it instead incentivizes it. As for why I'm assuming Flame Orb? opening up facade as a coverage option is worth a metric ton, and its not so difficult to keep the field clear for a bit. Guts definitely helps vs Slowking but imo is a bit of a distraction from our goal of choking out pivoting options. Basically I don't think this ability provides enough of a sidegrade from Neutralizing Gas to be worthwhile, has a chance of overshadowing, and its interaction with Flame Orb / Heavy Duty Boots is worrying. Giving a 1.5x damage mod on our attacks is also worrying, and would require a bit of constraints on our movepool stage. I think you can probably argue that Flare Boost and the speed boosting options are a bit better, but ye. Poison Heal would run Toxic orb as seen by Snaelstrom.

 

[flying moose]

My thoughts on some abilties I feel strongly about:

Skill Link: I like this one a lot. Like, really a lot. It provides clear advantages that provide a solid alternative to NG without being clearly better than it. It gives its STAB moves a big boost in reliability without making them powerful enough to necessitate a different list of counters. Pin Missile becomes a better Megahorn, while Scale Shot grants it physical Dragon STAB that is more powerful than Dragon Claw, doesn't lock like Outrage, and can be used as a decent set-up move. This last point is the main one that may incentivize use of Skill Link over NG--It consolidates a setup move into its STAB, but without being a broken set-up option. With no attack boost, most Fairy and Steel counters won't notice a difference in answering it, and CAP28 will have a harder time dealing with things like Tomahawk and permanently ousting Slowking, but in exchange, it becomes better at facing the offensive switchins that the pivots enable like Zeraora and Urshifu. This is Skill Link's main tradeoff with Neutralizing Gas--the improvement in Bug STAB is mostly icing. If desired, we could also use SL to unlock coverage options that would be unavailable to NG sets. We can also still choose to give CAP28 traditional setup moves, all of which would be better than a single speed boost, further preventing SL from running away as the favored ability. In short, Skill Link gives us excellent control at crafting two different groups of CAP28 sets.

Compound Eyes/ No Guard: Their obvious benefit is also to improve move reliability, but this is only good enough to warrant them if it they provide a compelling alternative tech to NG. And as dex18 mentioned, they would do so by introducing reliable sleep moves as an alternative method for punishing pivots. For this reason I greatly prefer No Guard, even though the flavor isn't as cool. If we give Sleep Powder to CAP28, everyone will just run NG and suck it up with the 75% accuracy, but No Guard enables a unique Hypnosis set that also carries the benefit of affecting Tangrowth, Amoonguss, and other Grass types.

Sheer Force: I like this one too, but the fact that it doesn't mesh well with our STABs makes it harder to get the full mileage out of it, so Skill Link or Punk Rock are probably better offensive abilities.

Punk Rock: I begrudgingly admit this also provides solid alternative sets, this time by improving its special attacking prowess. Pain to the artists, but otherwise an excellent choice for a secondary ability.

Analytic: Power against switch-ins as an alternative. I think its power level is reasonable.

Thick Fat: Now we're starting to get into uncertain territory. While giving 28 a new, alternative group of pokemon it can confidently face, I'm not sure this is enough to lose the benefits of Neutralizing Gas. Still worth consideration (though my inclination is also lower due to art reasons).


Some Abilities I really don't like:

Rattled: I really, really, don't see how sacrificing our precious HDB for a one-time speed boost is a reasonable strategy to build a set around when you're as physically frail as us and so easily countered by Fairies and Steels.

Contact-punishing abilities: We don't have the defense for it. Plain and simple.

 

[shnowshner]

I'm a bit hesitant on abilities which increase our overall offensive potential for the simple fact that raw damage might overshadow utility. So my support for the likes of Analytic, Sheer Force, and even more niche options like Punk Rock or Skill Link is quite low. If we want to explore a secondary ability to compliment our primary, it needs to both solve problems Neutralizing Gas doesn't while also being a more utility-based ability, one that doesn't have major effects on the power of our STABS.

These are the abilities I'm comfortable with in that regard:

Rattled: I don't love nor hate this. The ubiquity of Knock Off + U-Turn gives it a lot of value. Yes, we want to avoid Physical attacks, but there's a lot of Pokemon which just run these moves with no intent of dealing damage, and I think any means we have of discouraging such actions is useful in some sense, even if a in a limited way.

Compound Eyes/No Guard: Obviously I subbed the latter and I won't hide my bias, No Guard is one of my favorite abilities out there. We trade the ability-disrupting power of Neutralizing Gas in exchange for reliability in hitting moves, but also an opening for disruption with our moveset. Bug and Dragon both have strong attacks with imperfect accuracy, some more noticeable than others. What No Guard does that Compound Eyes doesn't is give us a larger list of moves we can use without worrying about a potential miss, with the inherent drawback of being hit by anything that might come back at us as well.

Shield Dust: I think this is super safe. It solves the Scald burn issue handily while also protecting the CAP from a variety of other crippling moves. The most relevant interactions this helps in are Scald, Discharge, Poison Jab/Sludge Bomb, and Lava Plume, all of which are moves with a good chance to inflict status. Our ability to stay in on our targets without worrying about the Slowking/Rotom/Toxapex getting a lucky status off is very useful. You also get some interesting benefits like not always dying to Astrolotl's Fire Lash combinations, becoming immune to flinches, and gaining a general immunity to hax. We lose some of our ability to torment pivots, but they too lose some of their options to torment us.

Water Immunites: These are nice but also veer into the "overshadow category" a bit. Would you rather remove Regenerator or become immune to one of the better types in the game while gaining HP/+1 Special Attack? At the very least, we don't have to concern ourselves with our secondary ability being useless. Having a way to punish Scalds so effectively, to the point where the user has to fear even using the move in the first place, can give a lot of room for 28 to work with.

Water Compaction: Hilarious and almost practical. What I like about this one is that it doesn't straight-up give us a powerful immunity, but still punishes mindlessly clicking Scald and calling it a day. It improves our ability to sit in-front of weaker Physical attackers, like Zeraora, along with defensive Pokemon just trying to wear us down, but I don't see how this stops many others from just mowing through our poor Defense like nothing. Perhaps that's a good thing?

Electric Immunites: Does a lot in the whole anti-pivot concept, yes we resist Electric but damage is damage, and if we can change damage into no damage, that's always useful. This is less of a matter of "it being immune to Electric valuable" as it is "should we be immune to Electric," seeing where we are now.

Not much else to say, but I did just remember Shed Skin exists. It's a strange mixture of the benefits Shield Dust/Natural Cure give us. We may get burned by Scald while switching in, yet also simply lose that burn immediately after should Shed Skin activate, making it as if we had Shield Dust anyhow. However, we also get some protection by direct status, like Toxic, Wisp, TSpikes, TWave, Spore, and so on. It's not a reliable effect so I'm not really confident in it, but it is interesting and opens up some fun shenanigans with Rest.

 

[Wolf134]

Just as a note, Teleport has -6 priority, not -4. As much as I was/still am a fan of Stakeout (yes, even with our high attack stat), this argument kind of falls flat. I doubt it will make the slate anyways, as it didn't for Primary Ability.

Oh yeah, scratch that on the Stakeout thing.

Alternatively, I would vouch for Compound Eyes as an ability because it would provide for a 100% accurate Megahorn, and a usable Dragon Rush on top of that, without interfering with Neutralizing Gas. Admittedly, this does have cause for concern with regards to such moves as Sleep Powder or Hypnosis that could effectively affect Grass types such as Tangrowth, Amoongus, etc. so we may need to be careful there.

Modedit: Removed flavor reasoning.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I may be the minority here, but I personally don't think that we need a second Competitive ability. I'm not necessarily against having another, but at this stage, I haven't really been convinced by the arguments in favour of receiving one. Neutralizing Gas is an incredibly powerful offensive ability, only really needing a few powerful coverage moves *cough* Earthquake *cough* to supplement our Stab combination, to be able to achieve what we are aiming for. As such, I think any other ability will almost always be outclassed, and will do little more than potentially limit what we can gain as coverage (particularly in the case of damage modifiers such as Mega Launcher and Punk Rock).

I think that immunity abilities such as Motor Drive and Storm Drain are particularly dangerous as secondary abilities, as far as creating an uninteractive Pokemon, because as we have seen with Equilibra, when an outclassed immunity ability is present, even only as a bluff, it can take the opponent by surprise or force them to play suboptimally and decide the match. In addition, Cawmodore is a pretty clear example of how immunity abilities as secondaries run the risk of outshining primaries. While Neutralizing Gas announces itself and is therefore harder to bluff, and discouraging a Krilowatt or Zeraora from clicking Volt Switch before CAP 28 comes into play is pro-concept, I think that they would needlessly complicate the remainder of the process.

 

[Mx]

Given that we already have a powerful primary ability and very powerful stats, I think this is a good stage to start scaling down. For this reason, I think I'd prefer either something niche or just No Competitive Ability. Neutralizing Gas is already punishes other bulky pivots that depend on their ability like Tomohawk, Amoonguss, and Toxapex, so we don't need anything else to accomplish on concept if we just get a few good moves. I think that most of the time, trying to further expanding our reach with this stage is going to end with either an ability that is fully outclassed by our primary ability or one that requires us to restrict the moves that Neutralizing Gas sets can get. That said, there are some options that I wouldn't mind getting:

Competitive: While a +2 to SpA is massive, this ability is unreliable enough that getting that boost is going to be very challenging, as Defog Mandibuzz is the only common mon that could proc this reliably, other than double switching into a predicted Tomohawk's Intimidate. This means that while the reward for activating this ability is great, it's not easy to activate and in some matchups it might not even be possible. This balance between difficult requirements but good reward makes me think this is the kind of ability I'd like to see for our secondary ability

Compound Eyes/No Guard: These abilities have some fringe benefits like boosting the accuracy of Mega Horn, but I think their main selling point is having access to superior special coverage. A more reliable Thunder in particular could be very beneficial to us, as Electric has been one of the best coverage for CAP 28 on testing. These abilities have their uses but don't interfere with Neutralizing Gas sets, as they only affect a handful of moves, which is something I value a lot.

Punk Rock: This is another ability that manages to land on the zone where I'd consider a good pick here. Boosting Bug Buzz really nice for special sets and options like Overdrive could also be interesting coverage without having to get in the way of sets with our primary ability.

Now onto the abilities I don't like:

Sheer Force/Analytic/Download: While they are cool, these are the kind of abilities that would restrict us in really unfortunate way during movesets, as moves that might have been fine with Neutralizing Gas could become very dangerous after the boosts these abilities give.

Skill Link: This ability is in a weird place, because on one hand most of the moves it boost are frankly not worth it except for Scale Shot, which provide not only a very powerful and reliable physical Dragon-type STAB, but also and incredibly dangerous Speed boost. I think that trying to balance this would severely limit our options on Neutralizing Gas sets, as the coverage that might be needed on those might be broken on Skill Link + Scale Shot sets. For these reasons, I'd rather stay out of this one.

Water and Electric Immunity Abilities/Rattled/Contact Punishing: While these are very different abilities I'm grouping these because to me they all fall into the same category of "this is never going to be used over Neutralizing Gas", so I don't really see a point in neither of these.

 

[Voltage]

Hey there CAPers. Since we want to be a little quicker with the process while still leaving time for our artists, this will be you 24 HOUR NOTICE! Given that we're nearing the end of the second ability stage, I figured I'd give a tentative slating list in order to express where I think the community is at for this stage. Please also note thata, again, this is not the final slate and I would absolutely be open to altering it from a last minute push for or against.

Tentative Slate:

• No Competitive Ability
  • I don't think this is surprising anyone? Neutralizing Gas has been seen as a very potent ability and there's been support for exclusively focusing on this ability. Furthermore, Neutralizing Gas already accomplishes plenty on its own, so there are some who might feel that adding a second competitive ability might move us into "overkill" ranges on usefulness.
    
    
• One of Volt Absorb / Motor Drive / Water Absorb / Storm Drain
  • As seen in the previous round, there is a direct way to discourage common moves used by pivots that would give an immediate negative effect to he opponent if activated. Motor Drive and Volt Absorb obviously punishes Volt Switch while Storm Drain and Water Absorb lets us come in far more easily on Scalds. the reason I say one of these is only because there's been a lot of disuccusion of the two together and ideally I'd like to see this narrowed down to choosing one. That said, if there are more valid points for a second from this being slated, I'm not opposed to doing so.
    
    
• Thick Fat
  • This ability recently got a lot of traction as it helps with Krilowatt, Rotom-H and Astrolotl matchups quite well. I also think it would be very useful in expanding our list of checks, while not totally overshadowing the utility of Neutralizing Gas.
    
    
• One of Punk Rock or Sheer Force
  • This again boils down to seeing general support for this type of ability, though in this case I have some issues differentiating the two. In my parsing I found that a lot of the time, the reasons that Sheer Force was offered up over Punk Rock were based on flavor. Are there any competitively oriented reasons why one should be slated over the other?
    
    
• Compound Eyes / No Guard
  • As MX just posted, there's a lot of merit to these abilities, and I think that they would allow for strong additional coverage to be used, while not overshadowing NGas. Furthermore, there's been support for these as well, though I would encourage any final posts to rea`lly choose one or the other here.

That's the slate I have working right now. Fringe abilities that I'm still wary on (based on user support), but still considering given a strong recommendation are: Skill Link, Analytic, Rattled, and Competitive. These four abilities all have seen their share of support and concern and I wouldn't mind getting one last "room test" on them just o in case there's some last minute vocal support for one of these four to be on the slate over others.

That said, I welcome any additional posts and hope to see some interesting and thoughtful last minute posts!