CAP 29 - Part 10 - Moveset Discussion

quziel

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CAP 29 So Far

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With MDS's stat spread of 85 HP / 85 Atk / 115 Def / 115 SpA / 100 SpD / 100 Spe being voted in, its time to finally discuss our moves and movesets. SHSP will be leading this stage, so we'll be handing it over to him now.

In this stage, we are determining the required and disallowed competitive moves by creating a list of approved movesets. The movesets will be decided based on the competitive needs and limitations of this project. We are not submitting full movepools at this time. There will be a later stage for movepool submissions (level-up sets, egg moves, etc) once the required and disallowed moves have been determined via the accepted movesets.

Moveset Discussion Rules & Guidelines

There should be five kinds of posts in the thread:
  • Moveset Archetype Submissions
  • Moveset Submissions
  • Moveset Edits/Option Submissions
  • General Commentary
  • Section Leader/Topic Leader Announcements/Updates
This means that no moves can be suggested or commented on unless they are part of a full competitive moveset submission or suggested as a additional option for one or more previous movesets. Any recommendations to disallow certain moves should only be in reference to moves contained in previously posted movesets.

The general flow of this thread should go like this:
  1. People post moveset archetypes.
  2. People post moveset submissions for these archetypes in a prescribed format (see below)
  3. Other people suggest to add/remove moves or other options to previously posted movesets (see below)
  4. Other people propose edits to the descriptive information with previously posted movesets
  5. Other people comment on the competitive pros and cons of previously posted movesets, additions/removals, and proposed edits
  6. Continuously over the course of the thread, the movepool leader updates the first post in the thread with the "currently accepted" movesets and other information related to the status of the intelligent community consensus (see below)
By the end of this discussion thread, we should have the following outputs:
  • The top post in the thread (maintained by the Movepool Leader) will contain a list of all edited, approved movesets
  • The top post will list controversial movesets and/or optional moves that need to be voted on by the community
Prohibited Moves:
Legendary Signature Moves are banned from discussion unless one (or more) is specifically allowed by the combined consensus of the TL and the Movepool Leader. The following moves are considered Legendary Signatures:

Aeroblast
Behemoth Bash
Behemoth Blade
Blue Flare
Bolt Strike
Crush Grip
Core Enforcer
Dark Void
Diamond Storm
Doom Desire
Dragon Ascent
Dynamax Cannon
Eternabeam
Fleur Cannon
Freeze Shock
Fusion Bolt
Fusion Flare
Geomancy
Glaciate
Heart Swap
Hyperspace Fury
Hyperspace Hole
Ice Burn
Judgement
Jungle Healing
Land's Wrath
Light of Ruin
Lunar Dance
Luster Purge
Magma Storm
Mist Ball
Moongeist Beam
Oblivion Wing
Origin Pulse
Photon Geyser
Plasma Fists
Precipice Blades
Prismatic Laser
Psycho Boost
Psystrike
Relic Song
Roar of Time
Sacred Fire
Searing Shot
Secret Sword
Seed Flare
Shadow Force
Spacial Rend
Spectral Thief
Steam Eruption
Surging Strikes
Sunsteel Strike
Techno Blast
Thousand Arrows
Thousand Waves
V-Create
Wicked Blow


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Moveset Submissions

Movesets should be posted in the following format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Energy Ball
Move 4: Earth Power / Focus Blast
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest
  • Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
  • Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut and Toxapex very hard.
  • Energy Ball allows CAP X to break through common Ground-types which may look to switch into its Electric-type STAB, most notably Seismitoad and Hippowdon.
  • Earth Power lets CAP X hit Pokemon such as Excadrill, and Aegislash extremely hard, however, Focus Blast is also an option that allows CAP X to deal with Pokemon such as Equilibra and Ferrothorn if desired.
  • Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
  • Timid is preferred as it allows CAP X to outpace Dragapult after it has used Agility, but Modest can be used for more breaking power, notably allowing CAP X to OHKO Toxapex.
Code:
[B]Moveset Submission[/B]

Name:
Move 1:
Move 2:
Move 3:
Move 4:
Ability: (optional)
Item: (optional)
EVs: (optional)
Nature: (optional)
[LIST]
[*]
[*]
[*]
[/LIST]
Please keep to the above format so the movepool leader can easily see which posts in the thread are proposing new moveset submissions, and can easily locate the information when updating the top post in the thread.

Ability, Item, EVs, and Nature are optional. All that is required are four moves, a name, and some descriptive information (in bullet form).

Any suggested moveset posted without any reasonable description will be deleted by the moderators. People should not spam movesets, post without checking the movesets already submitted, or post movesets without thinking them through.

Although we are not posting movesets in the full C&C analysis format, you should generally adhere to C&C standards where it makes sense. While there will not be excessively strict moderation on this, use common sense. Don't get too slash-happy with moves, no stupid names, use proper spelling and grammar, etc. These movesets will be put on the CAP subsite immediately at the end of the CAP for the playtest.

If you are unsure of the optimal ability, item, EVs, or nature -- you can leave it out and it can be edited in later over the course of the thread. By the end of the thread, every accepted moveset should be filled in completely. That doesn't mean we need to be 100% sure of every aspect of the moveset. It's fine if we go with our best guess and leave it to the playtest to optimize it.


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Moveset Edits/Option Submissions

Edits/options should be made by copying the most recent version of the moveset and description into an unattributed quote tags ([ QUOTE][ /QUOTE]). Then make any edits, additions, or replacements in bold text, removals should be in strike-through text. The most recent copy should taken from the top post or from the original submission post, depending on whichever one is most current.

Posters can and should comment on the reasoning and background for any proposed edits outside of Quote tags. Simple wording or spelling corrections do not need any explanation or commentary.

Additional move proposals must be made in the context of one or more movesets. The user cannot simply post "I suggest we add Taunt as an option to all non-choiced movesets", for example.
 
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Now that we've got a spread, lets get back to looking at what's gonna be a really unique moves stage. Now, we already have a bit of this handled thanks to Defining Moves- we know we're absolutely getting Calm Mind, some sort of 50% recovery, Sludge Bomb and Dark Pulse. Even with that sort of shell set in place, though, the field of what is possible to us feels quite open, and as we learned in some discussions in Defining, there's quite a few routes we can take.

I want to start with a bit more of a conceptual look at the core Calm Mind set we've been building towards throughout this project before we launch into any specific move(set) submissions or other archetypes. We have a sort of an idea of what we want this to look like, but its not particularly well defined, so I want to get us on the same page at least conceptually before we start debating the minutia of specific moves. What fits on this Bulky CM Set? Does the interpretation from Defining Moves- CM, Recovery, 2 Attacks- still hold up, or does this need to be revised? To reiterate, we are not discussing specific moves to add to CAP 29, just what the CM set should look like- lets not jump immediately into suggesting coverage types/moves/etc.

As a final note before we open the floodgates, I plan on being particularly stingy with additions in this stage. I don't want to create a situation where this already somewhat ambiguous mon has an abundance of options and becomes brutal to prep for or play against.
 

MrDollSteak

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What fits on this Bulky CM Set? Does the interpretation from Defining Moves- CM, Recovery, 2 Attacks- still hold up, or does this need to be revised?

From testing, the main CM variants that were seen were the standard Calm Mind, Recover, Two Attacks. As far as the actual attacks themselves, there is a lot of diversity, but the key of course was having decent two move coverage. The most successful in my testing was using at least one STAB move, and another coverage move to complement it, ideally with some utility effects. That being said, from other replays I did notice people having decent success with 0 Stab options and 2 Stab options as well.

Furthermore, some mono attacking Calm Mind sets saw decent success, with one of the moves being replaces with Substitute to avoid being crippled by Toxic. While these sets did see some success, I think they were strictly less viable than 2 Attack sets because they completely surrendered the mirror matchup, and were easier to wall in general once the single coverage move was scouted. Taunt is an option on a mono attack set instead of Substitute as it does have the benefit of preventing Toxapex and Blissey setting hazards, recovering or Teleporting while you turtle up.

While three attack Calm Mind sets were viable on some of the other spreads, I think with our final stat spread it won't be particularly effective due to our Speed tier. That being said, while I realise that this isn't the best way to respond to the Calm Mind set, there was some decent success found with a three attack set with Recover that might be worth pointing out as another potential set at a later point.
 
What fits on this Bulky CM Set? Does the interpretation from Defining Moves- CM, Recovery, 2 Attacks- still hold up, or does this need to be revised?

I think that the bulky CM Set hits its peak with the original CM, Recovery, 2 Attacks set, making the cap last the time it did on the field by virtue of powering up it's bulk. The recovery-less could fit moves to hit different opponents such as the Toxic, Taunt, and mono attacking sets but generally these sets performed worse than the original set, not to mention that most of these divergent sets came from spreads with high speeds than the one present in the current spread.

If I had to note down something that could change from the original bulky CM Set is that in the majority of cases strength sap has outclassed the performance of recover as the recovery move.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-240
In this replay, zephyr's 29 managed to 1v1 melmetal for a long time using the combination of ssap and sub. Similar stories can be seen with garchomp and rillaboom, and while the strength of sub has declined with the lower speed of the final spread, ssap could make 29 pose a more legitimate threat against slower teams.
 
Because most people were testing CM/recover/two attack sets, I mostly tested with various 3 attack sets. Out of that experience using both LO 3 attack/recover sets and Leftovers 3 attack/CM sets, the latter performed quite well. While that sort of set as a whole doesn't interact as much with Color Change, CAP 29 is going to appreciate the extra coverage that 3 attack sets provide more than most mons given the lack of STAB. Therefore, I think 3 attack/CM sets should absolutely be included in our interpretation of a bulky CM user, if only for the coverage and variability it provides.
 

Birkal

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TL/TLT ANNOUNCEMENT

This has almost nothing to do with movesets, but I thought it would be worth announcing somewhere; it certainly doesn't merit its own thread. I just wanted to loop you all in that Tadasuke (our Ability Leader) and I are officially confirming that CAP29 will not have a secondary ability, which includes NCA and flavor abilities. This is a conversation that started in Concept Assessment 2, where we decided as a community that having another ability would detract from the concept and make focusing on Color Change, which is a pretty wild ability, even more difficult. Ultimately, we stated at the end of that thread that we'd build CAP29 with the presumption that CAP29 has only Color Change as its sole ability, but we left the metaphorical door open just a crack in order to give us flexibility should the process change.

Tadasuke and I have been closely monitoring CAP29 in relation to a potential secondary ability, and we've had several conversations about it along the process. We both are in agreement that any additional abilities would allow CAP29 to copout of Color Change, and our typing and stats are both created specifically for interacting with this ability and no others. We're now officially closing that metaphorical door completely, so from here on out, you can 100% presume that CAP29 will only have one ability: Color Change. To be frank, I think most people presumed this already, but I thought it prudent to confirm it in writing for the sake of thoroughness.

That's it! Carry on with answering SHSP's questions above.
 

Birkal

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Furthermore, some mono attacking Calm Mind sets saw decent success, with one of the moves being replaces with Substitute to avoid being crippled by Toxic. While these sets did see some success, I think they were strictly less viable than 2 Attack sets because they completely surrendered the mirror matchup, and were easier to wall in general once the single coverage move was scouted. Taunt is an option on a mono attack set instead of Substitute as it does have the benefit of preventing Toxapex and Blissey setting hazards, recovering or Teleporting while you turtle up.

While three attack Calm Mind sets were viable on some of the other spreads, I think with our final stat spread it won't be particularly effective due to our Speed tier. That being said, while I realise that this isn't the best way to respond to the Calm Mind set, there was some decent success found with a three attack set with Recover that might be worth pointing out as another potential set at a later point.
I think this about sums up my opinion on the CM + Recover + 2 Attacks model we're operating within from defining moves; I'd predict that this model will be CAP29's bread and butter. I like that there's some flexibility here to either add or drop an attack though; since our speed tier is more manageable than some of the other spreads, I think we can afford to consider options that would make a mono-attacking set more viable as well, in terms of both support moves (Sub / Taunt / etc) and what our mono-attacking move might be, especially since CAP29 is already used to not having STAB in the first place. Conversely, I do think it's worth exploring coverage moves for a potential 3 Attacks variant, although I think this is a bit trickier than mono-attacking. CAP29 seems to really want Recover to get longevity to accompany its bulky boosting. I think if we go as far as to make a Recover + 3 Attacks set viable, then we probably went to far with regards too how much coverage we gave out.

Bulky boosting becomes less viable if CAP29 already has a plethora of high-powered coverage moves, so I think it's worth pursuing moves of moderate power that still need to be boosted, and strong utility moves that could support a mono-attacking set variant.
 
I agree with the general consensus that CM + Recover + 2 attacks still holds up fine. I think it's technically possible to run off-sets such as those with Substitute or something like 3 attacks + Recover, but I do question their ability to perform consistently. I feel that these sets are especially easy to make work in the environment which we have been testing in, where CAP29 has had a large degree of variability and people's preparation methods for CAP29 are fairly skewed from what they'll be after release. After CAP29 is finalized, I really do worry that these sets simply won't hold up in a less "wild west" metagame, so I would prefer to center our focus exclusively on CM + Recover + 2 attacks, which is a predictably strong foundation for any bulky CM user. It's fine to start exploring alternative niches or off-sets eventually, but I think it's imperative that we nail down bulky CM user before jumping into those options, so I believe CM + Recover + 2 attacks should really be our sole focus until we have a solid grasp on it and can then move on. I believe our main goal right now is just determining what the optimal two move coverage will be for us, since the other half of our set is already figured out.

I'm also fully behind the decision to be stingy in this stage. Realistically, any move outside of CM + Recover + the two or three "optimal" attacks is nonessential to our success. And while we'll obviously want a slightly broader scope than just four-five moves, we still really don't need much at all right now. I think this is probably the simplest moveset stage in recent memory just because of how much is already nailed down and how little we need. I'm sure this is a conversation we'll revisit later in this stage so I won't get too deep into it, but I just wanted to express my support for being stingy at this point in the stage.
 

quziel

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Minor post, but I believe that 2A+CM+Recover is a fine framework for us to operate under, and while 3A+CM is definitely going to exist, I don't think it necessarily has to be a focus for us in order to exist. I think our main concern now is going to be figuring out exactly which coverage typings are necessary to include, which ones are nice to include, and which ones are unnecessary. Our STABs are actually like, really good coverage together, so I would be interested in exploring just how much more we need.

In other words I think we should be a bit stingy with the actual coverage typings we include.
 
3 Attacks sets should come naturally from working with CM+Recovery+2A. I feel this is a one-way relationship in that our ability to run Calm Mind effectively may be compromised should we focus on running 3 attacks, as its harder to justify Calm Mind + 3A than it is for Recover/Strength Sap + 3A, and if we build 29 around 3 attacks than Calm Mind + recovery + 2A would be disadvantaged on the offensive front. If we can nail using both our setup and recovery moves with just 2 slots open for damaging moves, than we shouldn't have to worry about if sets with 3 attacks are viable.

As far as attacks go I do think we stand to gain the most from having one move more geared towards sweeping and the other towards midgame plays and status fishing. Our STAB does already accomplish this as Dark Pulse is good neutral STAB on most things and its flinch chance can be the catalyst for starting a CAP29 sweep, while Sludge Bomb is less potent offensively due to the many resists and Steel Immunity, but it does cover Dark well thanks to hitting Fairies and the 30% Poison chance is useful for wearing down the opponent. I feel this is a great way to move forward with how CAP29 operates: too much offensive power and it might be a bit overbearing to face off against, too much utility and its probably just going to start haxing everything to death instead as Calm Mind may not be worth it anymore. Finding a happy medium between the two lets it both play a role throughout the game while also giving it a shot at cleaning up later on.
 
Alrighty, seems like a clear consensus that 2 Attacks+Recover+CM is still our go-to framework, with some other options like 3 Attacks working as well. Now that we have that initial frame nailed down, lets get a bit broader: What set archetypes would be best to pursue for CAP 29? Really, what this question is asking is what options we should have outside of this main or primary CM set. What other roles fit our chassis well so far? Additionally, is there anything we should look to avoid? To use a few examples of Miasmaw's process to illustrate what these archetypes should entail, its archetypes were Disruption Stallbreaker, Physical Wallbreaker, Special Wallbreaker, and Support. What we decide here is what will broaden the scope of this stage and get us to a point where we can nail down our movesets well- once again, we're not discussing specific moves or sets quite yet. Thanks for the great discussion so far, let's keep it going moving forward.
 
Our M.O with 29 is to use color change to generate free turns, and I believe we do that successfully, While using those free turns ourselves should always be the main goal I feel both a BULKY PIVOT and some sort of HAZARD SETTING/CONTROL are both options that available to 29 lesser but still viable fashion.
 
Given the movepool discussed so far, I think it is not unreasonable to see 29 as a Pivot, although I'm not sure whether to describe it as an Offensive Pivot or as a Defensive Pivot. What I had in mind was something that switches in, tanks a self-resistant move, then dispenses utility via a move such as Scald, Sludge Bomb, or Knock Off which are all in our Allowed or Mandatory list from earlier for a short list of possibilities. I would say this type of pivot is traditionally defensive (Toxapex can also Scald Burn/KO/Poison in the same set), but we do have a pretty large SpA stat, higher than Astrolotl who is classified as an offensive pivot.
 
I think that this mon might work fairly well as a defensive offensive hybrid pivot a la Slowking-G or Heatran. 29 Has solid bulk and a strong defensive typing for at least a turn or two, while at the same time having a solid offensive presence, that gives it the ability to soak weak or resisted hits and dishing out chip damage and status.
With access to Sludge Bomb and possibly Scald or Knock Off, it should be able to offer all of offensive pressure and defensive as well as offensive utility.
In general I think it could work out with other options like cleric tools or hazard control, but I feel like that would lead to unnecessary movepool bloat. I think between spreading status, removing items and being a set up sweeper, the only thing that I think could be a cool option as well, are tools to work as a stallbreaker/sweeper similar to bulkyrona (which sometimes run safeguard), such as taunt, as its archetype should be a solid fit for fat teams that appreciate the ability to power through other bulky builds with status and boosting.
 

Birkal

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A pivot does not necessarily need to have pivoting moves, and I'm personally a bit concerned with the idea of CAP29 getting a pivoting move (Voltturn or Teleport). Optics is one thing: we've spent the past few months building a Pokemon around the concept of a bulky boosting sweeper. Calm Mind (and potentially Coil) are still our primary focus, and those moves do not mesh well with pivoting moves. Using those pivoting moves won't necessarily fail the project, but they will take it in a different direction than how we set our course at the start. I think it's best for us to "stay in our lane" like Amamama pointed out, and look into options that provide further team support (spreading status, utility options to make boosting a dangerous mixup, and offensive moves that also provide support, like Scald and Knock Off). Hazards might be worth discussing, as would other item manipulation through Trick/Switcheroo. But overall, I don't think we should venture far outside of those niches, as being a wallbreaker (choiced) or a priority user could be really awkward on a Color Change mon and doesn't play to CAP29's strengths.
 
I definitely understand the concern about pivoting moves. U-turn plus the right (or wrong) combination detours us into maining supportive pivoting roles.

I however look at adding a pivoting move as both a fail safe and a test. When we discussed what to do with the free turns we generate with color change we chose bulky set up, primarily because it’s one of the more challenging and least explored options.

Adding back in the pivoting move now 1. Gives us something to fall back on even if we failed to make a mon that wants to use calm mind or coil ( which would probably mean ws gave it to many supportive options)

2. We make Viable set up sweeper and pivot is used secondarily to cm/coil or ran in tandem with them at the cost of either healing or our second attacking slot. (So something more in the lines of some landorus cinderace slowking tornadus sets we’re seen.

I totally understand wanting to leave it off, but I don’t believe u-turn alone could steer us entirely away from wanting to set up, in my eyes it would take a third (recovery and uturn + ) really viable supportive move to push us towards a solely pivoting role
 
We definitely should not have a pivoting move. However, this Pokemon feels as thought it can be used as a Defensive Pivot nonetheless, purely through its bulk through stats and ability, and its strong supportive options. Whether or not it is something we want to actively pursue as a backup here, or something we want to just passively allow to happen in the background, is what I think is worth discussion. Should it be left on the side like 3 attacks + CM as mentioned earlier?
 

quziel

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I feel as if U-turn/Volt Switch/Teleport are just being mentioned as a "why not" thing here. They do not work with, but work around our ability (aka shedding a bad typing instead of fishing for a good one), they frankly seem like just strong options that are here because of a fear that the mon will be too weak (frankly I doubt it is).

I am more in favor of Hazard Setting just because well, if we're gonna be recovering up to get a free turn, why not spend that free turn making progress (aka CM or setting Rocks/Spikes/Tspikes/w.e.). I don't believe that this role conflicts with Color Change as an ability, and although I don't believe it synergizes as much as bulky boosting, it still does synergize.
 
I'm fully in favor of a pivot able to come in and shift momentum to get full mileage of Color Change for that one turn, but man U-Turn & co just feel out of place given what we have been trying to achieve. They look like an easy way to make progress while avoiding Color Change consequences which is fairly uninteresting and generic to me.

There is one interesting move that hasn't been mentioned: Rapid Spin in that it is the only utility moves that kind of directly help us setting-up. We are sitting at a decent speed tier and will likely invest there so we can outspeed most common threats at +1. This is mostly relevant for Landorus-T and Zeraora. This isn't likely to break anything but that's a fancy tech imo. The utility is great as well even though we don't have good match-ups against most common SR setters (Spikes are a different story, Ferrothorn and Astrolotl most notably can't do much against us).

All in all, I think that Hazards (setting / removing) are what will be the most distinct from our expected movesets and the ones most likely to eschew CM (that and Phazing now that I think of it). That's not necessarily a bad thing but this is definitely something we will have to actively think about before going into submissions imo. On the other hand, other supportive moves like Taunt or maybe even Disable might come more naturally as these are moves that can help set-ups.
 
Yeah I've got to agree with quziel here. Giving CAP 29 a pivoting move would completely remove the downsides of Color Change, as we could just pivot out of any unfavorable matchups. It would just turn CAP 29 into a worse Cinderace, which would be really boring.

I think any other set archetypes that CAP 29 should pursue should be utility based. I really like quziel's suggestion of hazard setting, but I also want to bring up the possibility of Status Spreading. Like hazard setting, status spreading doesn't conflict with Color Change and allows us to make progress.

Another idea for a set archetype that is more niche (but I really love) is a Trick/Switcheroo + Choice Item archetype. This one is really interesting because IMO it synergizes perfectly with our ability. For example, let's say CAP 29 is up against a Heatran, and it uses Lava Plume on us, changing our typing to Fire. CAP 29 could then Trick/Switcheroo the Heatran its Choice item, which would lock it into only being able to use a resisted move on CAP 29, basically forcing it to switch out and allowing us to make progress.
 
I feel as if U-turn/Volt Switch/Teleport are just being mentioned as a "why not" thing here. They do not work with, but work around our ability (aka shedding a bad typing instead of fishing for a good one), they frankly seem like just strong options that are here because of a fear that the mon will be too weak (frankly I doubt it is).
I think that’s just a fundamental difference in how people view the interaction between U-turn and color change.

After switching into a Rillaboom grassy Glide (or really any choiced move we resist after color change) we’ve now forced a switch we can use to either heal, set up, place hazards or punish the switch in by pivoting out all of these effectively use color change and the momentum it can generate. I don’t think 29 is fast enough to use Uturn as a way to circumvent color change and would instead have to use uturn as an extension from the situation color change puts it in.


That being said I totally understand the reservations, even if I feel like it’s a proper call back to the base of the concept (using color change to generate free turns and then maximize those turns).
 

Brambane

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After testing this mon throughout the stats stage, teambuilding, theorycraft, etc etc, I think CAP29 should stick to two archetypes: Bulky Special Sweeper and Status Spreading "Pivot". That's it.

We already have the bulky sweeper going with CM + Recover. Status spreading comes naturally to this mon since one of its moves is Sludge Bomb, Scald as an optional, and I honestly wouldn't be opposed to paralysis or even Toxic Spikes (although TS in a playtest meta where the mon being tested absorbs TS is probably not going to feel good.) Knock Off is fine because it supports both sets. I don't think CM + Knock is totally out of the question with a move like Scald, since you can fish for burns and knock early-midgame and then switch to sweeper mode once the Scald resists have been weakened. But that's really all this Mon needs.

Yeah we can give it Spikes, U-turn, Rapid Spin, etc, but honestly it feels like just giving it good moves for the sake of having good moves. CAP29 is going to be perfectly effective using Color Change to generate safe turns to CM, click its status move or more importantly heal back from the turns where CC is being used against it. I don't think Stealth Rock or Spikes would really get used when there are way more consistent rockers and spikers available. And I don't like the argument "well then whats the harm of adding them" because it both distracts from the focus and also, from a purely aesthetic standpoint, it makes our creation look cluttered and filled to the brim with options because we could add them, not because we should. As for the Bulky Physical Sweeper route, I don't see that being viable unless used as an absolute wincon with Coil+Power Trip similar to those old CM/Acid Armor Reuniclus, except more vulnerable to Toxic. I am not opposed to that idea, but I don't think its a particularly interesting or optimal direction for CAP29.
 
I still strongly believe that “getting in and then out after we benefit from color change but before the opponent has an opportunity to manipulate it to their advantage” is totally pro-concept... for our initial concept. U-Turn and the like don’t just negate our ability; it mitigates the downsides while still letting us take advantage of the upsides. Turning a negative ability into a purely positive one is totally pro-concept... for our initial concept.

But that twice-repeated qualifying statement is key. Our initial concept was just a color change mon benefitting from our ability. The direction we took from there was a bulky setup sweeper. And while U-Turn and the like are great for a color change ‘mon, they run contrary to our intended role as a set-up sweeper. I still think we would have been better off as a utility pivot but since we’ve chosen this path we should stick with it.

As such, I say we don’t include pivoting moves.
 
I really don’t think pivoting moves are healthy for our intended role or even necessary to diverge to defensive pivoting sets, that have been described previously.
29 can serve as a defensive pivot through sheer bulk, as it is basically as bulky as Toxapex:Toxapex: if invested in defense.
And while 29 doesn’t have regenerator or a consistent defensive typing, it has an actual offensive presence and is really hard to 2hko if the opposing mon doesn’t have the necessary 2move coverage.

I also don’t believe, that hazards are going to be particularly practical, as we have trouble consistently beating hazard removal options without boosts. The same goes for removal optionsas we have even more trouble beating common rockers and don’t do particularly well with Rocks or spikes.
Rapid Spin migh still be interesting, but for the boost it can provide, rather than its utility.
Compressing utility and Set Up or damage is something that fits decently well on 29 and while it is strapped for moveslots i could see it working out with the right combination of moves.

Other than Set Up and Defensive Pivoting, I only see merit in disruptive utility (taunt, Sub, encore, trick and status), which can fit on both of these archetypes.
 
While I agree that hazards aren't a great option for this CAP given that the common spinners and defog users of the tier have some form of advantage into CAP 29 without CM, I think removal, specifically Defog, could be fine as an interesting niche pick while not overshadowing or affecting the CM sweeper role.
 

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