CAP 29 - Part 15 - Post Play Lookback

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Birkal

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CAP 29 So Far

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In this stage we will first reflect on the process so far, discussing what we've learned from this process, how this well we have fulfilled its concept, and what impact CAP29 had on the metagame. After that, we will discuss some possible minor tweaks to the product in order to better fulfill our goals. Please follow the Topic Leader's instructions and don't propose any specific changes until they say so.

Changes allowed:
  • Move additions and removals
  • Changes to secondary ability
  • Small stat changes
Changes not allowed
  • Typing changes
  • Changes to primary ability
  • Large stat changes
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Hey everyone! I hope you've been enjoying using Chromera as much as I have! I think it's safe to say that this mon has a fairly unique learning curve, both playing with it and against it. This is the last chance we have to make any adjustments to Chromera before officially releasing it into the CAP metagame. Before we start discussing specific additions or removals, I'd like to pose the following questions for your consideration:

1) What can we learn from Chromera, its concept, and its execution? What's something new you learned specifically?​
2) Do you personally think that Chromera works with Color Change, or in spite of Color Change? One of the key questions prompted in Concept Assessment was whether or not CAP29 would choose to run Color Change over a non-competitive ability. Do you think it would or wouldn't, and why not? Do you think your answer determines whether or not CAP29 succeeded at its concept?​
3) Below are a list of mons from B- tier and up that we predicted CAP29 would have a natural advantage against due to Color Change. Are these all Pokemon we thrive against? Why or why not? Which one did we most miss the mark on succeeding against?​
:Astrolotl::Slowking::Hydreigon::Melmetal::Rillaboom::Ferrothorn::Latios::Barraskewda::Pelipper::Mandibuzz::Jumbao::Kartana::Kyurem::Tapu Lele::dracozolt::Suicune::Regieleki::Syclant::Tapu Koko::Torkoal::Urshifu::Victini::Zeraora:
4) One of our earliest goals with CAP29 was to give it the primary team role of a bulky setup sweeper. Do you feel that Chromera's primary role is a bulky setup sweeper? Why or why not? If you answered yes, do you still feel that being a bulky setup sweeper was the best way to fulfill CAP29's concept? And if you answered no, do you still feel that CAP29 fulfilled its concept?​
5) How well do you feel that Chromera performs in the metagame? These stats (pulled by 2spoopy4u ) indicate what moves Chromera is favoring in the playtest tournament, and how much it's being used in general. Below are stats from the playtest tournament, all of the replays from the playtest tournament (so far), and the April ladder statistics for Chromera specifically. Do you think these stats are indicative of Chromera's normal usage and best sets?​
Code:
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | [Chromera] (Tour)       |   53 |  57.61% |  56.60% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Calm Mind               |   29 |  54.72% |  44.83% |
| 2    | Recover                 |   24 |  45.28% |  66.67% |
| 3    | Scald                   |   15 |  28.30% |  66.67% |
| 4    | Ice Beam                |   10 |  18.87% |  60.00% |
| 5    | Boomburst               |    9 |  16.98% |  66.67% |
| 5    | Thunderbolt             |    9 |  16.98% |  33.33% |
| 7    | Knock Off               |    7 |  13.21% |  85.71% |
| 7    | Taunt                   |    7 |  13.21% |  71.43% |
| 9    | Sludge Bomb             |    4 |   7.55% | 100.00% |
| 9    | Dark Pulse              |    4 |   7.55% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Toxic                   |    3 |   5.66% |  66.67% |
| 12   | Thunder                 |    2 |   3.77% | 100.00% |
| 13   | Destiny Bond            |    1 |   1.89% |   0.00% |
| 13   | Sludge Wave             |    1 |   1.89% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
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Code:
+----------------------------------------+
| Chromera (Ladder)                      |
+----------------------------------------+
| Raw count: 1048                        |
| Avg. weight: 1.0                       |
| Viability Ceiling: 92                  |
+----------------------------------------+
| Abilities                              |
| Color Change 100.000%                  |
+----------------------------------------+
| Items                                  |
| Leftovers 64.027%                      |
| Life Orb  6.393%                       |
| Choice Specs  4.771%                   |
| Shuca Berry  4.485%                    |
| Black Sludge  2.672%                   |
| Rocky Helmet  2.004%                   |
| Focus Sash  2.004%                     |
| Assault Vest  1.718%                   |
| Expert Belt  1.718%                    |
| Air Balloon  1.527%                    |
| Choice Scarf  1.336%                   |
| Weakness Policy  1.050%                |
| Red Card  1.050%                       |
| Silk Scarf  0.763%                     |
| Other  4.485%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Spreads                                |
| Timid:0/0/0/252/4/252 15.649%          |
| Bold:252/0/252/4/0/0  6.775%           |
| Timid:4/0/0/252/0/252  4.676%          |
| Timid:252/0/0/4/0/252  4.580%          |
| Timid:252/0/140/0/0/116  4.485%        |
| Bold:252/0/252/0/4/0  4.103%           |
| Other 59.733%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves                                  |
| Recover 65.363%                        |
| Calm Mind 62.882%                      |
| Scald 45.134%                          |
| Dark Pulse 38.168%                     |
| Boomburst 34.351%                      |
| Sludge Bomb 31.870%                    |
| Ice Beam 27.863%                       |
| Thunderbolt 15.935%                    |
| Sludge Wave 15.553%                    |
| Knock Off 11.832%                      |
| Destiny Bond  7.156%                   |
| Taunt  7.061%                          |
| Toxic  6.489%                          |
| Extreme Speed  6.202%                  |
| Toxic Spikes  3.817%                   |
| Acid Spray  2.099%                     |
| Other 18.225%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Teammates                              |
| Dragapult 27.767%                      |
| Tomohawk 23.473%                       |
| Equilibra 22.901%                      |
| Jumbao 19.847%                         |
| Colossoil 19.561%                      |
| Heatran 16.508%                        |
| Slowking 14.313%                       |
| Arghonaut 14.218%                      |
| Rillaboom 14.027%                      |
| Astrolotl 13.359%                      |
| Miasmaw 12.882%                        |
+----------------------------------------+
| Checks and Counters                    |
| Revenankh 50.930 (76.09±6.29)          |
|     (41.3% KOed / 34.8% switched out)|
+----------------------------------------+
Since this stage is a bit newer in the scope of the entire CAP process, let me provide a brief timeline of events. These next five days will be to answer the above questions. Then we'll take about ten days (a week and a half) to propose and necessary buffs and/or nerfs to CAP29. Then we'll spend a few more days reviewing and discussing the proposed slate before sending it over to voting. I'm eager to read your thoughts!
 
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1) What can we learn from Chromera, its concept, and its execution? What's something new you learned specifically?​
2) Do you personally think that Chromera works with Color Change, or in spite of Color Change? One of the key questions prompted in Concept Assessment was whether or not CAP29 would choose to run Color Change over a non-competitive ability. Do you think it would or wouldn't, and why not? Do you think your answer determines whether or not CAP29 succeeded at its concept?​
3) Below are a list of mons from B- tier and up that we predicted CAP29 would have a natural advantage against due to Color Change. Are these all Pokemon we thrive against? Why or why not? Which one did we most miss the mark on succeeding against?​
:Astrolotl::Slowking::Hydreigon::Melmetal::Rillaboom::Ferrothorn::Latios::Barraskewda::Pelipper::Mandibuzz::Jumbao::Kartana::Kyurem::Tapu Lele::dracozolt::Suicune::Regieleki::Syclant::Tapu Koko::Torkoal::Urshifu::Victini::Zeraora:
4) One of our earliest goals with CAP29 was to give it the primary team role of a bulky setup sweeper. Do you feel that Chromera's primary role is a bulky setup sweeper? Why or why not? If you answered yes, do you still feel that being a bulky setup sweeper was the best way to fulfill CAP29's concept? And if you answered no, do you still feel that CAP29 fulfilled its concept?​
5) How well do you feel that Chromera performs in the metagame? These stats (pulled by 2spoopy4u ) indicate what moves Chromera is favoring in the playtest tournament, and how much it's being used in general. Below are stats from the playtest tournament, all of the replays from the playtest tournament (so far), and the April ladder statistics for Chromera specifically. Do you think these stats are indicative of Chromera's normal usage and best sets?​
1) This is quite a tough question for me to answer, because I wasn't really around for this CAP until right when things were really just starting to wrap up. That being said, I think it would benefit both me personally, and the community at large, if I tried to answer this question to the best of my ability, since it's arguably the most important question posed here.

I think one of the most important conclusions that we can come to with this project is that effective leadership is what navigates us through a storm of change. Just looking back through the threads, there was quite a lot of things that changed right in the middle of our process. We have had the process order changed completely (Primary Ability Discussion before Typing Discussion), a grand total of three tier changes (Magearna, Spectrier, and Cinderace were all banned in the middle of the process), the ongoing nerfing process of Astroltol, and Defining Moves being delivered upon us mid-project by the PRC. You could also argue that there was somewhat of a split of interest towards the end with the CAP Buffing Process getting kicked off the ground, as our interest would sort of be divided between creating Chromera and buffing Voodoom. But despite all of that, the TLT did a fantastic job at keeping everyone on course, and as such we got an amazing end product despite these weird circumstances.

I would say that another thing we can really take away with this is that it's important for us to always to really look deep into the many different tools at our disposal, and that we shouldn't judge a book by its cover. This Concept is interesting because it sort of forced us to have to do that, as we knew right away that we would have to go into it with an ability that on surface glance would be awful, and we had to really think about how we could not only make it work, but actually use it to our benefit. I think in general this lead to some pretty good discussion on the early stages and really showed how critical thinking is a very important aspect to CAP as a whole, and I think that sort of reinforcement is great for the Project as a whole.

2) Chromera definitely works with Color Change, not in spite of it. Many of the setup oppurtunites that Chromera creates, or on stallbreaking sets, many of the walls it is able to defeat, come from how Color Change lets Chromera change its type into something that would be more benefical to the Pokemon that it is currently pit up against. I think positive aspects of Color Change would give it reasons to use the ability over something that does nothing like Honey Gather or Pickup, and I personally think the answer to this question would be very important to determining whether or not we truly succeeded as a concept. While I would consider making a Pokemon that works in spite of its negative ability to be somewhat of a success, I would consider making a Pokemon that works solely because of its negative ability (and obviously some other aspects as well) to be a massive success. And just as a project overall, I think we can learn a lot more from massive successes or massive failures than minor successes, minor failures, or just mons that were sort of middle of the road. Before I end my answer to this section, I would kinda like to propose my own question to the thread.

Which replays from the Playtest Tournament (Or any replay that showcases Chromera really) do you think highlight the positive aspects of Color Change the best, and why do you think that? Do you think the game would have ended in a similar manner had Chromera just had a non-Competitive Ability? (This could be anything up to, and including the person who won that match changing)

3) Most of these mons are stuff I would say we thrive against, again just due to how the combination of their typical movesets not working well with Color Change and Chromera's defensive capabilities make it a very reliable answer to them. The ones we probably missed the mark on the most are probably Hydreigon and Latios. Hydreigon is sort of a weird case, since right in the middle of the project the optimal set for it turned from the Defensive Defog set (Which we generally have a positive matchup against) to just a general offensive mon (Which we generally have a negative matchup against). What also doesn't really help,, and this is a large reason of why I think we dropped the ball against Latios, is that Color Change despises Pokemon who uses Ghost and Dragon moves, thanks to those moves being super effective against themselves. Hydreigon and Latios both essentially can use Color Change in a way that lets them ignore the downside of Draco Meteor and secure enough damage onto Chromera to take it out.

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Chromera: 179-212 (47.8 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Chromera: 185-218 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

While I wouldn't call them counters, as neither of them really wants to switch into an Ice Beam or Boomburst, it's pretty clear that we aren't going to be checking these mons like we hoped we would.

4) This is sort of a tough question to answer. On one hand, there is definitely some merit to the Calm Minds sets, as in both my personal experience and within the tournament, it seems to be doing alright. But on the other hand, it seems that, atleast in the Playtest Tour, stallbreaking sets have been more successful overall (Taunt has a 71% win rate compared to Calm Mind's 44% win rate). I guess we can say that we definitely have a bulky setupper sweeper as one role we can take on, but whether or not that will be Chromera's best set moving forward (and hence its primary role) will probably just be determined through time. That being said, I think the answer to this question is irrelevant as to whether or not we would have fufilled our concept, as at the end of the day, our concept was "Make a mon that manages to work around a bad ability", and both of these sets not only work around the limiations of Color Change, but they can actually use the ability to its advantage. So I guess I would say that our primary role being as a bulky setup sweeper is yet to be seen, but regardless of the answer, we have still succeeded in our concept.

5) I think Chromera preforms pretty well in the current metagame as far as it currently stands. It doesn't seem like it would be problematic anytime soon, but at the same time it is very much a threat that now has to be considered when building a team for CAP. Going forwards, I think that the current stats are fairly well representative of how Chromera's typical usage will be in the future, although it's possible that Calm Mind might see a small dip in usage due to the appeal of Chromera as a stallbreaker and a general utility mon.
 

MrDollSteak

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
1) What can we learn from Chromera, its concept, and its execution?

I think that Chromera is actually by far and away the most balanced CAP that has been made in Gen 8, and arguably even since the start of Gen 7. To a large extent I think this is as a result of the specific drawback indicated by the concept. Whereas previous projects have either tended to go way above or below expectations, because of Chromera's incredibly lackluster ability it was able to have a reasonable power budget in the other corresponding changes that have worked to compensate for its pronounced weaknesses. In this regard, I personally think that CAP needs to learn from the success that occurred with a specific focus on balancing limitations with possible strengths rigiht from the earliest stages of the process.

2) Do you personally think that Chromera works with Color Change, or in spite of Color Change? One of the key questions prompted in Concept Assessment was whether or not CAP29 would choose to run Color Change over a non-competitive ability. Do you think it would or wouldn't, and why not? Do you think your answer determines whether or not CAP29 succeeded at its concept?

I think that Chromera actually achieves both. From the wealth of replays and testing that has been done with Chromera, it is clear that in certain matchups Chromera is able to leverage Color Change in primarily positive ways (even with the consistent problem that is a loss of STAB) while in others it is primarily a hindrance and often stops Chromera from achieving what it needs to. That being said, the wide toolkit that Chromera has, means that even in matches and matchups where Color Change can't offer a lot, Chromera is still not complete dead weight. I think this is honestly as close to optimal as we could make a Color Change user.

3) Below are a list of mons from B- tier and up that we predicted CAP29 would have a natural advantage against due to Color Change. Are these all Pokemon we thrive against? Why or why not? Which one did we most miss the mark on succeeding against?

:Astrolotl::Slowking::Hydreigon::Melmetal::Rillaboom::Ferrothorn::Latios::Barraskewda::Pelipper::Mandibuzz::Jumbao::Kartana::Kyurem::Tapu Lele::dracozolt::Suicune::Regieleki::Syclant::Tapu Koko::Torkoal::Urshifu::Victini::Zeraora:

I want to once again say that it depends. I think from this list the only Pokemon that we consistently beat are Rillaboom and Zeraora, but that is really more than enough utility in and of itself due to their presence. With many of the other Pokemon, it is somewhat dependent on opposing team composition and definitely relies on what offensive moves Chromera is running. Slowking is something that for the most part isn't too problematic, unless of course it is in fact paired with Rillaboom, and Astrolotl, while not particularly threatening, can still Spike up on us. Other Pokemon like Mandibuzz and Jumbao are a toss up based on their items or access to Toxic. Nevertheless, I think this is something that is overall quite positive, because as mentioned previously, Chromera is a very dynamic Pokemon that can always achieve something even if it doesn't necessarily 1v1 as many Pokemon as it was intended.

4) One of our earliest goals with CAP29 was to give it the primary team role of a bulky setup sweeper. Do you feel that Chromera's primary role is a bulky setup sweeper? Why or why not? If you answered yes, do you still feel that being a bulky setup sweeper was the best way to fulfill CAP29's concept? And if you answered no, do you still feel that CAP29 fulfilled its concept?

I think this is a difficult question to answer as Chromera is still a recently new Pokemon and experimentation still occurring. Whether or not its Calm Mind Bulky setup sweeping set will continue to be its main set, it is clear from the matches and tests that have taken place so far that it is under the right conditions incredibly potent. Although I didn't originally think that bulky sweeping was the most logical way to take it, instead thinking a more general defensive utility set would be the way, of which Chromera can also succeed, it has in practice been amazing from an actualisation point of view, with Calm Mind working perfectly to offset many of the penalties imposed by Color Change. I think the fact that Chromera has access to two different roles that both utilise Color Change excellently is a testament to its success in fulfilling its concept.

5) How well do you feel that Chromera performs in the metagame? These stats (pulled by 2spoopy4u ) indicate what moves Chromera is favoring in the playtest tournament, and how much it's being used in general. Below are stats from the playtest tournament, all of the replays from the playtest tournament (so far), and the April ladder statistics for Chromera specifically. Do you think these stats are indicative of Chromera's normal usage and best sets?

I think these stats are fairly accurate if not slightly inflated due to its popularity as a recent release, as well as the fact that I think certain trends particularly in the moves data are easy to skew, particularly in regards to Calm Mind (as it was likely to be present on movesets with both the low performing and high performing moves). I also think that the data demonstrating the success of the Taunt stallbreaker and other miscellaneous utility sets which aren't as common will have some influence in future rounds and could easily become the standard, as its Speed tier and bulk suit the role pretty perfectly. Once again, I don't think this should be taken as a project failing if it does indeed eclipse Calm Mind sets, because Calm Mind sets are still viable, and in an almost mathematical status of equilibrium, will become more powerful again the less common they are from the surprise factor alone.

Most importantly, in regards to Chromera, is that irrespective of its sets, the ratio between its usage and win percentage demonstrates that it is actually an incredibly well-balanced Pokemon, only slightly underperforming from 50%. This assessment is further reinforced by the VR council's decision to place it in the solid B ranks, because of its need for team support to really succeed.

With all of this in mind, I would personally like to state that at this stage I will not be supportive of any changes to Chromera, and want to once again stress my belief that it is one of the best designed and balanced CAPs in recent memory, and something that we should actively try to emulate in future projects.
 

Brambane

burn the midnight oil
is a Contributor Alumnus
1) What can we learn from Chromera, its concept, and its execution? What's something new you learned specifically?

1) Color Change is bad, but not nearly as bad as I thought
2) Boomburst is an amazing move, its distribution has just always been ass
3) I think Chromera's stat and movepool discussions were well-lead and well-discussed, and it managed to avoid both under- and overperforming. I think we could have easily undershot Chromera's stat spread, but identifying that it would need a fairly meaty stat distribution with good physical bulk early on was critical to its success. I think the stat slate diversity was great too; MDS' spreads higher special bulk compared to other spreads I think proved to be very relevant for setting up against stuff like Zapdos, Heatran, and Equilibra. And I think we dodged some bullets with movepool that would have overshot, especially Earth Power.

2) Do you personally think that Chromera works with Color Change, or in spite of Color Change? One of the key questions prompted in Concept Assessment was whether or not CAP29 would choose to run Color Change over a non-competitive ability. Do you think it would or wouldn't, and why not? Do you think your answer determines whether or not CAP29 succeeded at its concept?

Chromera does what it can with the tools it has. It can sometimes make interesting plays that would be impossible without Color Change (mostly revolving around the opponent using Earthquake/Earth Power, occasionally getting stuff like STAB Tbolt or Scald.) However, I am fairly certain Chromera would run an ability that does nothing (Illuminate) or even Klutz (Chromera is a decent Knock switch-in anyways, and Klutz means you are immune to Trick Scarf) over Color Change if it could. Dark/Poison is such a baller typing that Color Change is a balancing factor for Chromera imo; without CC it would be a staggeringly good Pokemon due to the combined traits of being a bulky Dark-type while also being able to threaten Clefable/Jumbao AND dodge Toxic. The base typing of this Pokemon, combined with its great stat distribution, do a ton of work with Color Change, so without it Chromera would be exceptional.

With that being said, I think Chromera still succeeds with its concept. It does interact with its own ability, and often forces the opponent to interact with it too. Does Chromera LIKE its ability? Of course not; at the end of the day, Color Change is taking away one of its best traits. But it works with it, does the best it can with it, and can often succeed in spite of it. And it does so while striking the perfect balance note: strong enough to have to worry about, but not too strong its too demanding to prepare for during teambuilding. That is success imo.

3) Below are a list of mons from B- tier and up that we predicted CAP29 would have a natural advantage against due to Color Change. Are these all Pokemon we thrive against? Why or why not? Which one did we most miss the mark on succeeding against?

:Astrolotl: Encore makes you very sad, as does Fire Lash -> Stomping Tantrum. Knock Off Chromera fair a bit better since Astro really likes its shoes, but generally speaking I don't keep Chromera in at all vs Astro. Too likely it has a tool to mess you up.

:Slowking: Yes, they can Scald -> Teleport -> Rillaboom or something, but you should be prepared for such plays if you are using Chromera. If the opp doesn't have a Pokemon to capitalize on Scald -> Teleport, this is a very free switch-in and set-up. Getting burned by Scald means you can't get hit by Toxic later; I have lost to a burned Chromera before. Slowking also doesn't care for the Knock / Toxic sets.

:Hydreigon: Draco -> Draco is a pretty clean KO. NP breaker sets scare Chromera out too. You can easily set-up on the defensive Hydreigon sets though. I ran into both during testing, so I would say this MU goes either way.

:Melmetal: If you have Taunt + Scald you have a 30% chance to make Melm pretty sad, otherwise Melm just EQs -> Toxics you. Melm is one of those Pokemon that make Chromera run Scald; getting a burn on it makes the mon so much more managable later.

:Rillaboom: If Rilla is already locked into Knock or its Grass-type move, Chromera is great. But switching into a Rilla without knowing what move its going to use next is terrifying. Getting hit by a Choice Band U-turn is such an awful swing for momentum; Chromera now is in the position where it wants to Recover but you can bet your opp has something to capitalize on Bug's multitude of weaknesses.

:Ferrothorn: Taunt sets make Ferrothorn cry, but other sets have to worry about Toxic; Pokemon like Ferrothorn can easily drop of move for Toxic to catch stuff like Chromera, Zapdos, Tomohawk, and Mandibuzz.

:Latios: Draco -> Draco means ur ded. Latios can't come in on Chromera, but Chromera most certainly cannot come in on Latios unless its already locked into Psychic or something.

:Barraskewda: :Pelipper: I didn't face much rain with Chromera; when I did it felt eh, watch out for Zapdos and Krilowatt; also Pelipper U-turn into Zapdos Hurricane is like watching your dad get beat up.

:Mandibuzz: Another Pokemon that clicks U-turn on you, but Chromera can drop a nasty Toxic or Knock Off on Mandibuzz with the support set. This a decent mon to squeeze in a CM against: the U-turn is doing piss damage, and many special attackers with SE coverage against Bug are going to struggle to break through Recover. Watch out for shit like Specs Pult Fire Blast or Victini tho.

:Jumbao: LO/Specs Moonblast kinda hurts, but if you can get a Calm Mind off then its pretty ez. This is also one of the mons that makes support sets run Sludge Bomb; losing to Jumbao as Chromera feels really bad.

:Kartana: I thought I was clever until one of these Sacred Sword -> Psycho Cut me and then I realized it was I who was the fool. I wouldn't bring in Chromera against it until you figure out the set or you are running an extremely physically bulky spread.

:Kyurem: If you have +2 SpD its pretty much smooth sailing for Chromera; otherwise, I would be pretty careful vs Kyurem. Without boosts, Draco Meteor will 2HKO, if not OHKO. Specs Ice Beam can even 2HKO 252/4 spreads with rocks up regardless of Color Change.

:Tapu Lele: How much do you believe its going to click Psychic? Specs Mooblast stings. CM wins if it already has set up.

:dracozolt: I didn't see a single one, but the calc says Draco -> Draco is a 2HKO, and Bolt Beak -> EQ probably doesn't feel nice either.

:Suicune: Its going to burn a ton of your PP in the process, but I think CM Chromera has the better shot thanks to CC making you resist Scald. Taunt + Toxic obviously crushes Suicune.

:Regieleki: Chromera can't remove screens and its just gonna explode. You can set up on it, at least. Pretty funny if it gives you STAB Boomburst tho.

:Syclant: If it clicks Icicle Crash/Ice Shard you are pretty happy; if it clicks U-turn or EQ you are not.

:Tapu Koko: Just another screener, but this one can click Taunt to keep you from setting up. Chromera is decent into the offensive sets, but those are pretty rare these days.

:Torkoal: Another one of those jank ass mons that can run Toxic to ruin your day. Taunt + Toxic makes Torkoal a sad turtle tho.

:Urshifu: If it clicks Surging Strikes/Aqua Jet you are pretty happy; if its click U-turn ot CC you are not.

:Victini: U-turn and Trick can be pretty annoying, and CB V-Create does a ton still, but Chromera is one of the better Victini switches out there.

:Zeraora: Probably one of the best Pokemon for Chromera to come in on, you absolutely sit on this mon unless its Bulk Up, in which case you better start smacking it earlier than usual. These are starting to run Toxic again, be careful of that.

I would say in general Chromera is pretty suboptimal against most of these Pokemon. There are way safer switches out there that are less vulnerable to pivoting moves than Chromera. A number of them cannot answer Chromera when its already set-up, but thats true for a wide range of special attackers. Chromera's ideal opponents tend to be weaker special attacking support mons, like Tomohawk and defensive Zapdos, which it can set up CM -> Recover -> CM -> Recover.

4) One of our earliest goals with CAP29 was to give it the primary team role of a bulky setup sweeper. Do you feel that Chromera's primary role is a bulky setup sweeper? Why or why not? If you answered yes, do you still feel that being a bulky setup sweeper was the best way to fulfill CAP29's concept? And if you answered no, do you still feel that CAP29 fulfilled its concept?

I would say Chromera is equal parts CM and support, with a splash of offensive Taunt in there too. The support set feels more consistent overall; Taunt, Toxic, Knock Off, Scald, and Sludge Bomb are generally nice tools on a support Pokemon; it also highlights Chromera's 4MSS. You are running it for its raw stats, ability to switch-in on Zeraora, and bait in stuff like Argh and Chomper. On a lot of teams support Chromera is going to be outdone by other support mons. The surprise factor of Toxic/Taunt Chromera is a big deal.

The CM set feels more explosive, but compared to the alternative that isn't hard to achieve lol. It is a great Pokemon for leaving mons like Heatran and Equilibra at low health, and Chromera can catch the opp off-guard with its coverage (Ice Beam is pretty dumb on this mon.) With that being said, the CM set is a lot easier to prep for than support sets. It is vulnerable to Toxic if it doesn't run Taunt; if it runs Taunt, then it loses key coverage. There are a number of Pokemon that can easily fit Toxic in their movesets, as well as other common Toxic users like Blissey. Arghonaut is a huge pain for pretty much every CM set. Against bulky offense teams, CM can be very potent; I find it doesn't do much against more defensive teams or HO however. Playing against CM with balance bulky offense is like playing against the clock; you have a set number of turns to change its type and either Toxic/threaten it out until it reaches critical mass and starts Boombursting you to oblivion.

Non-CM offensive sets combine the power of Boomburst with the utility of Taunt or Toxic. I expect there to be more experimentation with these kinds of sets. I think there might still be some potential for CM 3 Attacks due to how strong Boomburst is, but pretty much every other set should run Recover. It is how Chromera gets to most mileage from its ability.

5) How well do you feel that Chromera performs in the metagame? Do you think these stats are indicative of Chromera's normal usage and best sets?

Its strong, but not exceptional. During practice games and roomtours, I often thought (or said) "this team would be better if I had X over Chromera." Chromera feels more like a Pokemon to build around than something you are using to patch-up a weakness on your team. I think there are better bulky, set-up wincons on most teams (Dragonite and Volcarona immediately come to mind) but Chromera can get the job done. Useable? For sure. Viable? Definitely. Optimal? Much harder to say. I do think the stats are indicative of the best movesets and items, although I think the EV spreads are not. Chromera's stat spread allows for a wide range of interesting EVs, and I am eager to show off some of the ones I have come up with after the Playtest Tournament.
 
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1) What can we learn from Chromera, its concept, and its execution?
Chromera was a pretty streamlined CAP, despite its janky nature. I think thats because CAP does best with these styles of concept: focusing in on something less abstract, and with a clear defined route from the get-go. Previous examples of similar things are Mollux, Crucibelle, and Stratagem's concepts. Subverting regular metagame standards in typings and abilities, as well as stats and movepool (the latter two are mostly unexplored still) make for good concepts and I think overall have more success than trying to explore meta roles which perhaps people have different interpretations of and casual CAPpers might not have a good grasp of. We did actually theorize a lot about Color Change, and we also got to see whether those ideas came out as we expected or not.

Another takeaway regarding execution I think should be about movepool stage. This is the fourth(?) consecutive CAP where Im hearing suggestions of removing unnecessary moves quickly after release, and the 3rd where some of these moves are not being removed as a hard nerf but just because they are movepool bloat. I think we can do cleaner movepool releases with less fluff in the future. While its fine to remove later, it makes it more awkward and less ppl are interested in getting involved once the CAP is finished, and there always seems to be an uphill struggle to prove that a move needs to be removed when it should have perhaps required more solid proof when it came to adding it in the first place. Often a bloated movepool doesnt do much for viability but causes counterplay to become sloppy and matchup-fishy which is not only annoying to play against but annoying to argue about regarding cleanup.

2) Do you personally think that Chromera works with Color Change, or in spite of Color Change?
In the end, I have to say it works in spite of Color Change. Color Change ended up being a lot worse than planned and it didnt mesh as well with CM as originally expected. Its very hard to use Chromera as a CM sweeper, as if the opponent knows the set and the coverage moves the path to counterplay is usually quite simple and its easy to lean on counters that Chromera can never progress on like Arghonaut or Bliss. It often gets tantalisingly close, often spending many turns in, but falls short due to crits, toxic, shuffling, typing being manipulated, or just being finally overwhelmed as a last mon after being forced out repeatedly during the game. To this point, I dont think Ive ever seen a CM Chromera achieve a full sweep. That being said, the true power of Chromera has come from its good 600 BST stats and movepool, making the most of early turns instead of getting muddied down by typing changes. Its base form as a Posion/Dark with strong stats and recovery means it trades hits nicely, is hard to switch into, spreads Toxic, and can keep itself healthier than the opposing team with Taunt and Recover.

3)Are these all Pokemon we thrive against? Why or why not?
We can have a good 1v1 matchup against most of these mons. In a 6v6, it becomes a lot more difficult, and only gets harder the more passive the Chromera set. Toxic and Offensive sets can find more success because they can toxic and deal universal damage to switchins. more passive CM + 2 atks sets usually get walked over more as their setup is very slow and Color Change is very abusable and makes it annoying for Chromera to switch in.

4)Do you feel that Chromera's primary role is a bulky setup sweeper? Why or why not?
No, because of the reasons above. Mono attacking is the defensive CM set that I would kinda vouch for, and you can create teams that specifically opens holes in defensive teams that the Chromera train can potentially roll over at a snail-like pace. But overall I think it does better as a tanky offensive "stallbreaker"-ish mon, though this set is also somewhat hard to justify putting on teams.

5) How well do you feel that Chromera performs in the metagame?
Overall its pretty hard to say. While I don't find CM to be strong by itself, respecting the Toxic/Taunt/alternative sets with various powerful coverage moves makes it feel a lot scarier when its set hasn't been scouted. When Ive been using Chromera, it has always felt like a luxury mon that would be the first to be swapped out, and it definitely requires the team to patch a lot of holes to justify its placement. If you play on ladder, Chromera is very capable of getting 6-0 sweeps because it requires specific counters. That being said, those specific counters are easy to put on any team that has been thought about, and those counters dont wear down easily. Chromera proves to be really unreliable defensively, as many switchin "opportunities" change your typing in a very unfavorable way, or pivot out. In fact Chromera, despite being bulky, almost never appreciates switching in and losing its typing. This is a very awkward situation for it, requiring a CM boost to even reach the power it would have with STAB. But hey, I think making a bad ability pokemon was very informative and we learned a lot about Color Change. Im glad we didn't make Chromera too strong because I don't think there is much of a safe area for it to have landed in.
 

Birkal

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I'm going to take some time and answer my own questions based on my opinions. This isn't a community consensus, just me giving my open takes on the CAP29 process and Chromera's actualization into the CAP metagame.

1) What can we learn from Chromera, its concept, and its execution? What's something new you learned specifically?
I'm going to approach this more from a process-perspective, and dig into the metagame aspects of CAP29 in a later question. CAP29 was a difficult beast to lead from a process standpoint for several reasons. One, it was the first concept we've ever had that required us to select the ability before the typing, which led to some fascinating conversations that we've never had before. Two, this was the first time we hosted a Defining Moves stage, which gave our stat submitters a bit more wriggle room to work with without polljumping. Three, we had to deal with several metagame bans and nerfs throughout the process, which shifted the goalposts around several times. Four, we took our time with having several concept assessments to sort of "pump the breaks" and see how CAP29 was doing as an overall process.

I am proud of how CAP29 turned out, and I think a big takeaway that the CAP Project can have from this one is to be flexible and go with the flow. I think we sometimes get so caught up in the process, that it can stifle our creativity. It's ok for us to take risks and try something new, similar to how Necturna's process based around Sketch eventually turned out. My advice to future TLs is that if something feels 'off' about the process, don't be afraid to host another Concept Assessment to reassess what's going on.

Finally, this CAP saw more playtesting during the actual process than any CAP before it. I'm not sure if that's a positive or negative thing, but it's a trend I've been noticing. It might be worthwhile for the PRC to address this growth in pre-testing and see if it needs to become an official part of the process. Thankfully, we didn't have a Flame Charge Smokomodo situation with CAP29, but there's currently no safety net to prevent people from playing a few test games and then tanking an idea based on such a small sample size.

2) Do you personally think that Chromera works with Color Change, or in spite of Color Change? One of the key questions prompted in Concept Assessment was whether or not CAP29 would choose to run Color Change over a non-competitive ability. Do you think it would or wouldn't, and why not? Do you think your answer determines whether or not CAP29 succeeded at its concept?
There's an interesting aspect to this question that I don't think was considered much throughout this process: would CAP29 be banned to Ubers if it didn't have Color Change? A defective ability is certainly a nerf, but I don't think we talked much about how they can take a Pokemon that would normally be banned and put them on a level playing field with other OU mons. I think Chromera fits that mold, in that its combination of insane bulk, Recover, and access to powerful moves could see it potentially being banned. Thankfully, Color Change gives the opponent a might weapon against CAP29: Toxic. If you're able to land this on any CM set, you've basically stopped it from sweeping, since it often needs a few CMs to attempt a sweep. And thankfully, Toxic is plentiful enough that many competitors are running it on their teams already. If Chromera didn't have that weakness to Toxic, I could see it being potentially too strong for the current metagame.

Ultimately, I don't think there was ever a way for CAP29 to use Color Change over a non-competitive ability; there's just too many disadvantages to losing your STAB and to letting your opponent dictate your typing. However, I firmly believe that Chromera does utilize its ability well, since its shifting ability does generate free turns, which it uses well to set up Calm Mind. As MDS stated, I think CAP29 both works with its ability, and in spite of it.

3) Below are a list of mons from B- tier and up that we predicted CAP29 would have a natural advantage against due to Color Change. Are these all Pokemon we thrive against? Why or why not? Which one did we most miss the mark on succeeding against?

:Astrolotl::Slowking::Hydreigon::Melmetal::Rillaboom::Ferrothorn::Latios::Barraskewda::Pelipper::Mandibuzz::Jumbao::Kartana::Kyurem::Tapu Lele::dracozolt::Suicune::Regieleki::Syclant::Tapu Koko::Torkoal::Urshifu::Victini::Zeraora:
CAP29's weakness to Toxic changes how several of these matchups play out. But for the most part, I think we as a community hit our mark in having good matchups against several of these Pokemon. I personally wish this list was a little bigger, or at least more air-tight. But I think we did the best we could have with what Color Change offers to CAP29.

4) One of our earliest goals with CAP29 was to give it the primary team role of a bulky setup sweeper. Do you feel that Chromera's primary role is a bulky setup sweeper? Why or why not? If you answered yes, do you still feel that being a bulky setup sweeper was the best way to fulfill CAP29's concept? And if you answered no, do you still feel that CAP29 fulfilled its concept?
I have a pretty negative outlook on this question: I do not think that Chromera's primary role is as a bulky setup sweeper. I do think the two-attack CM movesets are pretty good, but at the moment, Chromera has a lot of other tools that are just too tempting to pass up. Taunt and Knock Off in particular are great options. Taunt is a move we didn't discuss much, but it synergizes really well with our concept and forcing our opponent to interact with Color Change. It also lets us circumvent Toxic and a litany of other status moves that would hamper us. Knock Off is some solid team support, and gives Chromera a reason to come out early on in the game. As we approach the next phase of editing Chromera's competitive movepool, these are the two moves I think we should look at the most. I'm not sure they need to go, but I think we need to justify their inclusion still.

5) How well do you feel that Chromera performs in the metagame? These stats (pulled by 2spoopy4u) indicate what moves Chromera is favoring in the playtest tournament, and how much it's being used in general. Below are stats from the playtest tournament, all of the replays from the playtest tournament (so far), and the April ladder statistics for Chromera specifically. Do you think these stats are indicative of Chromera's normal usage and best sets?
My personal prediction is that mono-attacking CM sets and outright no-CM sets are going to continue to rise as people continue to anticipate what Chromera can accomplish. I think it's a solid mon, but I also don't see it currently as a top tier threat. It's difficult to rank sweepers in viability ranking, because people tend to prefer a select few and neglect others. I think CAP29 fits in that pantheon of viable sweepers, but in time, with no edits, my hypothesis is that people will prefer to run CM Tapu Fini, QD Volcarona, and others over CM Chromera.

-----

Feel free to continue answering the above questions, responding to my predictions, or proposing your own questions, but I'm now going to open the floor up to CAP29 edit proposals.

6) How balanced do you feel Chromera is in the current metagame? Is any part of its design detrimental to the metagame?​
7) Does Chromera need any competitive changes? Why or why not? What evidence do you have to support your opinion?​
8) If Chromera needs changes, which ones would you propose?

This discussion will run for at least one week, so take your time formulating your opinion and responding to others. As a final note, I know there are flavor implications to Chromera's 600 BST and lack of pre-evolution. I want to remind everyone that CAP is a competitive project, first and foremost. If, through this thread, we decide that CAP29 needs to have its stats buffed, nerfed, or redistributed for its competitive needs, then those options will absolutely be allowed and supported. Flavor teams can always come in afterward and make any edits, changes, or resubmissions to Pokedex or other stages as needed. If we end up with a 605 BST, for example, due to the results of this conversation, then that's not a problem. Let's try to preserve flavor when we can, sure, but if we need to change Chromera's speed tier or its offensive/defensive capabilities, we will move forward with those edits.
 
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quziel

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4) One of our earliest goals with CAP29 was to give it the primary team role of a bulky setup sweeper. Do you feel that Chromera's primary role is a bulky setup sweeper? Why or why not? If you answered yes, do you still feel that being a bulky setup sweeper was the best way to fulfill CAP29's concept? And if you answered no, do you still feel that CAP29 fulfilled its concept?

This question is sorta beyond the point. We used the framework of bulky CM sweeper as it was my initial guess of how we'd best use the strengths of Color Change, but if it turns out that Color Change also works for a stallbreaker, then honestly that's entirely fine. Its difficult to determine the exact set of a mon before release, barring literally Equilibra, so if we have meaningful emergent play patterns, and those patterns are not what we expect, then that's totally fine. Stallbreaker sets still try to leverage the free turns generated by CC to well, inflict damage, rather than setting up, and are very able to circumvent one of our biggest drawbacks in Toxic.

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1) How balanced do you feel Chromera is in the current metagame? Is any part of its design detrimental to the metagame?

Franky the mon is nearly perfectly balanced, if potentially a bit strong. Its currently in the B-ranks, and given that its a difficult mon to use, I expect it to only get better as we explore how to properly support it, and how to use it to properly support teammates. I think the only real issue with the mon is the sheer wealth of like, strong options lol, aka Chromera does not need to have Scald + Boomburst + Ice Beam in its movepool. Of these I think Ice Beam, as like, the worst option in general, but the most able to reverse otherwise solid matchups, should be the one to go.

2) Does Chromera need any competitive changes? Why or why not? What evidence do you have to support your opinion?


3) If Chromera needs changes, which ones would you propose?

The mon has too many random tech options that deny counterplay.

Remove Ice Beam so I don't get annoyed at a Chromera randomly OHKO'ing my Garchomps. This move is not a generally strong option, and is not one I expect to make it onto "mainstream" sets, but its existence needlessly complicates its counterplay. I dont really think the mon needs any other removals. That said, add Heal Bell so I can run Chromera as a Cleric imo. This move is basically strictly worse than Taunt for our purposes, but would let me run Rillaboom as a Slowking answer.
 
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MrDollSteak

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6) How balanced do you feel Chromera is in the current metagame? Is any part of its design detrimental to the metagame?

As I and others have noted previously, Chromera's win rate and position in the metagame viability rankings would suggest that Chromera is a very well balanced Pokemon. In terms of feelings to play against, I don't personally feel like it is particularly overwhelming as there are a range of different strategies that consistently check Chromera, particularly through clever play that manipulate its typing to be exploitable.

7) Does Chromera need any competitive changes? Why or why not? What evidence do you have to support your opinion?

I personally don't believe so. I think its position in the metagame is pretty ideal and can't really see the need for any removals or rebalances at this stage in time. While I don't disagree with Quziel's point about Ice Beam being potentially superfluous as the Calm Mind BoltBeam set is outclassed, I can't say I support removing it solely for streamlining purposes as Ice Beam is still one of Chromera's best moves even if it comes with an opportunity cost (in running the far less effective Thunderbolt or Dark Pulse)

8) If Chromera needs changes, which ones would you propose?

As mentioned previously, I really do not believe Chromera is in a situation where it needs any changes at all. I think that the statistics show that it is a Pokemon that is performing well without being overbearing and with pronounced weaknesses that don't make it impossible to play around.
 

dex18

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How balanced do you feel Chromera is in the current metagame? Is any part of its design detrimental to the metagame?

Chromera I feel is in a great place at the moment in the metagame. The niche of bulky CM sweeper was pretty much only held by Clefable and Tapu-Fini, and Chromera provides a nice third option for that role which plays distinctly differently than the other two. While at its release I thought it would be quite annoying to play against, there is a lot more meaningful counterplay for it than I originally thought, and I find it quite a fun mon to use and play against.

Does Chromera need any competitive changes? Why or why not? What evidence do you have to support your opinion?

One aspect of Chromera that I do find to be a little uncompetitive is the sheer amount variability in what coverage it can run. Being able to pick at a whim between Sludge Bomb / Dark Pulse / Scald / Boomburst / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam can make the mon incredibly difficult to know how to play against it if a team is lacking a solid counter. I would like to see this variability cut down just a tad, as one of Chomera's biggest benefits is its coverage, but the state it is in now is not the best.

If Chromera needs changes, which ones would you propose?

As stated above, I think that one of Chromera's coverage options should be removed, specifically one of Thunderbolt or Ice Beam. In all honesty, I would prefer the latter to be removed as it can nullify some of its more usually consistent checks such as Toxic Landorus and TankChomp, so I would propose that Ice Beam be removed from Chromera's moveset.
 
Posting at the request of Birkal.
The roomstaff in the CAP Project Showdown room ran a poll on Chromera. The poll ran for approximately one week, ending today (May 25).
Screen Shot 2021-05-25 at 1.02.58 PM.png

This is not a particularly rigorous poll, so we can't take any hard statements about Chromera's viability from this. However, of the people who participated in the poll and played with/against Chromera, a majority think it doesn't needs changes, and many of those people think it's either fine or more on the strong side (without needing a nerf).
 
Sort of a general response to all three questions here - I agree with the sentiment that chromera is incredibly well balanced, although it can definitely be tough to evaluate at times. On one hand, there are often games where it accomplishes very little because it's not being utilized properly, has a really unfortunate matchup, or its ability is simply too debilitating for it to overcome in that one instance; however, in many other games, sets like taunt+mono attacking will tear through fatter teams, an opponent flounders against it because they didn't pack sufficient counterplay / aren't taking the correct lines against it, and its inherent unpredictability can give it enough of a leg up to lure something useful. Its objective viability is sort of hard for me to pinpoint because it's a very weird mon to use + play against, has so many sets, and is definitely a bit reliant on matchup. I will say that in my personal experience chromera has felt very balanced and incredibly fair, but I understand that's not always the case with other people, and it seems like the mon's perceived strength differs wildly across the community because it often performs at the extremes of good and bad.

My one gripe with chromera definitely relates to its unpredictability/variability. I think the mon forces a lot of 50/50s to play against, because you have to maneuver yourself very carefully to exploit color change, and you're banking on them making certain moves the whole time in order to pull it off. A lot of chromera counterplay relies on exploiting its typing with one mon and then using a separate teammate to take proper advantage of it, and it's not always the easiest thing to accomplish. Like, say you get it to be an electric type so you can force it out with your landorus-t, and you try to get it to half health and force it to recover so your landorus can get a safe switchin. There's nothing stopping the chromera user from aggressively ice beaming the landorus as it comes in and just not recovering its health back, and in situations similar to that, there's always a bit of risk and unpredictability involved when you're trying to exploit its typing and get your answer in safely.

Obviously the example I gave above is not perfect by any means but I hope it demonstrates my point well enough. In my experience playing against chromera, the mon really rewards aggressive play to try and catch its checks as you're pivoting around trying to exploit color change. In general, I think this is actually a really neat effect of the mon and it's cool how aggressive play can be rewarded so heavily at times, but its access to ice beam definitely makes it a bit frustrating to play around, and makes the 50/50s feel very unfair if you get one wrong. There isn't really a reason chromera should be able to randomly delete a ground type (especially if it's running something like shuca berry for some reason which is nearly impossible to scout), and the versatility it has in scald/bb/stabs alone is already very high, so axing ice beam is a very easy and sensible decision to make. We could also go one step further and axe tbolt as well, because without ice beam the move would literally just be bloat and removing it would not hurt the mon at all. Anyways, I like the mon a lot despite being very weird to play against if you aren't packing a hard counter, and I think it's in a very good place. Removing ice beam would just make it a lot healthier and less stressful to fight while having a negligible effect on its overall viability.
 

Brambane

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Going to keep this really short and sweet.

How balanced do you feel Chromera is in the current metagame?

Its fine. Generally cuts through fat teams with either Taunt sets or the right coverage + something to beat up Toxic users/Arghonaut for it. Not great vs more offensive teams since they either pivot a bunch to break it with Syclant/Pult/Zera/whatever or just overpower it. Seeing more and more offensive teams, possibly because of Chromera, but also probably because they pressure FuturePort better. Tried offensive Taunt a bit, fairs better vs offensive teams due to raw Boomburst power but not exceptional.

Does Chromera need any competitive changes? If Chromera needs changes, which ones would you propose?

Yes, I also think Ice Beam should be removed. I didn't like Ice Beam back during the movepool stage, and my stance hasn't changed. I think Chromera has no business teching Garchomp so hard while also hitting Zapdos, Tomohawk, Dragapult, Landorus, Rilla, Dragonite, and Hippowdon. I don't care if Thunder(bolt) stays; move is pretty much useless atm outside of getting STAB on it from Zera volt switch, which is more funny than actual useful. I think we can cut Ice Beam and still maintain what Chromera is best at: punishing reactive play and fat teams.
 

Voltage

OTTN5
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But for real, I think of the discourse done here, I don't have too much new to add. Chromera's a great product. It's not too overpowering, but it absolutely has a niche as a CM + Taunt mon that plays significantly differently from Clefable or Tapu Fini. I really like where it sits right now from a competitive standpoint. My one gripe, which is similar to most people's, is Ice Beam. I don't think Chromera has reasons to be able to really threaten common Dragon, Flying and Ground types based on the standards we established earlier one. After using it and playing against it, I dislike the fact that Chromera gets Boltbeam coverage just because it really feels a like gimmicky and unpredictable in terms of what can and cannot switch in, even with smart play through Team Preview. And I advocate for removing Ice Beam as opposed to Thunderbolt since Ground types like Landorus-T, Garchomp, and even Hippo are still threatened by Scald, which we still commonly see.
 
Gonna Follow Voltages original idea of keeping it really short:

Chromera solidly viable.
Cut Ice beam because it makes counterplay iffy.
Maybe Cut Tbolt to reduce movepool bloat, since it’s unviable without ice beam.
 

Birkal

We have the technology.
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I think we're approaching our revision poll. From the feedback I've seen in this thread, it will probably look something like this:

No Major Changes​
Remove Ice Beam​
Remove Ice Beam and Electric-type Coverage​

If anyone has any final thoughts on this draft slate, let us know! I'm happy to include any additions if people have them. I'd refer you to 2spoopy4u's post above to see a compelling argument on why Ice Beam is potentially negative on CAP29. MrDollSteak started the conversation above on why some might find Ice Beam to be balanced enough to not remove. And others have mentioned that Electric-type coverage is meant to pair with Ice-type coverage, meaning that the removal of Ice Beam would mean we can remove Electric-type coverage to reduce movepool bloat.

Finally, for the sake of thoroughness, I wanted to bring up all of the moves from Movepool Submissions that SHSP and I denied movepool submitters from putting on their movepools. These moves were seen as too competitive to be allowed as flavor, but now seems like a good time to discuss them and if they have any merit on CAP29's movepool. I personally believe that we made the right call to disallow any of these moves, but if any of you feel that we made a misstep and should add any of these moves to support CAP29's concept or design goals, let us know in this thread.

Coil / Bulk Up​
Nasty Plot​
Power Trip​
Disable​
Encore​
Glare / Thunder Wave​

Some of these would be minor additions, but some would be considered major. If you have an argument to bring up for the addition of any of these moves, please state whether you believe it to be major or minor, and why. Again, I am not personally advocating for any of these moves to be added -- I was part of the team that specifically disallowed them in the first place. But they didn't receive a lot of discussion after stats were decided, so I wanted to open the floor up to these moves one final time before we give our final seal of approval on Chromera.

If you have any thoughts on the current slate, the list of disallowed moves from Movepool Submissions, or any other final buffs to champion (are we content with our stats?) or nerfs to propose (are we content with Knock Off, Taunt, and Toxic?), now is the time to bring up any final points. This thread will close in roughly 72 hours, maybe 96 hours, depending on scheduling. Thanks y'all for your continued participation!
 
Im on board with removing extra moves, although personally I think Ice Beam is great coverage, and it can beat Garchomp anyway without it and something like Scald fishing burns would be better to chop. But if it comes down to that slate, Ill vote for removing Ice Beam and Electric coverage so its not hitting every single mon SE. Its coverage is just nonsensical atm to me.

When it comes to re-adding moves, I cant really say Im for it. A lot of these moves just provide it with more weird options to scout for, especially Encore/Nasty Plot/Coil/Disable. If it wanted to really lean into its strengths and agree that it works successfully with utility sets, have we considered moves like U-turn, SR, Defog, Heal Bell etc? Some of these seem more up its alley and could even worm their way onto CM mono-attacking sets.
 
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Of all the moves up for inclusion Power Trip is the least harmful. Using it alongside Calm Mind is way less effective than running the Special Attacks you're designed for. Even versus Blissey it offers very little, 252 Sludge Bomb does more damage than Trip even after 4 Calm Minds, while also potentially causing Poison. The only argument against its inclusion alone is that it's superfluous, which honestly is a great argument.

If we added Bulk Up or Coil however there would be a case for Power Trip being an issue.

I'm all for removing Ice coverage in order to make our answers a bit better defined, but think Electric can stay. It does lose out on its partner Ice Beam, which strips a lot of its value away. However, players should have the option to threaten common Water and Flying types in a single slot if they really want it. Being able to hit Corviknight, Tomohawk, Toxapex, Arghonaut, Tapu Fini, and more for SE damage in a single slot might be valuable to have as time goes on. Its not helping us bypass the problematic Ground and Dragon Pokemon like Ice did either, so its more of a flex option rather than having your opponent's Garchomp die for thinking it could switch-in safely. Really if its not overbearing but not completely worthless I don't see an issue, especially when its something we already have.
 
Will there not be an option to keep Ice Beam and remove Electric-Type coverage? I would rather keep Ice Beam than the electric bloat if I had to choose between the two.

As for additions... I think that going the Coil route is a bad move. Its far too late to be going for a physical route. Instead, I think the options worth looking at here are either Nasty Plot (if we want to ramp up more and be more offensive) or Disable/Encore (to give us a different breadth of utility alongside existing Taunt/Scald sets.)
 

Dj Breloominati♬

it takes a lot of balls to golf the way i do
is a Tiering Contributor
im in favour of No Major Changes as of right now

only major point brought up so far was "i want my chomp to switchin without fearing the potential ohko". While i do agree this is a fair argument, i think this is more of something that looks threatening on paper rather than in practice. I think even with ice beam gone it still doesnt make chomp a safe switch in because it must fear the looming threat of a scald burn. that + i believe having the option to run ice beam is good , since it makes u choose between cost vs benefit in the builder itself ( ice beam hits wayy lesser things than scald )
 

Birkal

We have the technology.
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We'll move forward with the following slate. Electric-type coverage without Ice-type coverage is not very effective, and doesn't tamper with any of the threats from our previous discussions. Everything else brought up in Movepool Submission does not seem worth adding or voting on at this time. Make sure to vote in the upcoming poll.

No Major Changes​
Remove Ice Beam​
Remove Ice Beam and Electric-type Coverage​

Thank you all for your thoughts. To the polls!
 
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