That was the reason behind the second line~ Also the statement that it was mostly as a flavour thing. :)
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CAP 29 - Part 3 - Concept Assessment 2
- Thread starter Mx
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Just gonna echo the consensus of the thread and say I firmly believe that Color Change should be CAP29’s only ability.
I completely understand why Jordy posited the idea of an additional flavor ability that adds no competitive value or limitations. From a lore perspective, it’s always fun to see what different abilities a Pokémon is capable of having, and from a competitive perspective it can be interesting to see how they make it work.
However, the whole point of CAP29 is to take an ability that would be a hindrance in any other circumstance, and find a way to make it play to our advantage. If we have a nothing ability like Illuminate, what’s going to stop players from just running illuminate to circumvent any drawbacks from Color Change? I think if we were to give it a secondary ability, we would be severely underestimating the amount of people that would cop out and go for the alternative at no cost. This completely invalidates the concept of CAP29, since no ability is not bad ability made to play to our strengths. This concept is a tricky one, and if we’re going to go all out with this, we need to do it right. Keeping Color Change as the sole ability is the best and only way to do this, in my eyes.
I completely understand why Jordy posited the idea of an additional flavor ability that adds no competitive value or limitations. From a lore perspective, it’s always fun to see what different abilities a Pokémon is capable of having, and from a competitive perspective it can be interesting to see how they make it work.
However, the whole point of CAP29 is to take an ability that would be a hindrance in any other circumstance, and find a way to make it play to our advantage. If we have a nothing ability like Illuminate, what’s going to stop players from just running illuminate to circumvent any drawbacks from Color Change? I think if we were to give it a secondary ability, we would be severely underestimating the amount of people that would cop out and go for the alternative at no cost. This completely invalidates the concept of CAP29, since no ability is not bad ability made to play to our strengths. This concept is a tricky one, and if we’re going to go all out with this, we need to do it right. Keeping Color Change as the sole ability is the best and only way to do this, in my eyes.
Color Change is one of those abilities that should not have a secondary ability for flavor reasons, and there's no point in adding an ability you don't want people to use when you aren't forced to add one for flavor reasons. Meanwhile other equal or worse negative abilities are so equally dominating that you cant translate a Color Change mon to them if they were chosen for a secondary abil. We literally wouldnt learn or explore anything with those abilities in the secondary slot
Any secondary ability at this point would need to be something outright worse than Color Change in order to not throw the entire thing off the rails. A key factor of the abilities we've discussed is how many of them do something different to achieve the same sense of "having a negative ability." Color Change is wholly unique in its approach, as it causes us to have little control over our own typing and instead give it to our opponent. This becomes an argument of equality versus equity, in a sense: both are equal that they are perceived as negative abilities, but they are not equal in how they go about this negativity.
In a vacuum, I feel something like Defeatist (halves damage at low health) and Color Change (change typing on hit) both have equally bad outcomes, but depending on the direction we take with CAP29, one can easily end up much better than the other. Consider this example: something fast that employs hit-and-run tactics would be so much better with Color Change than Defeatist as its rarely going to take more than one attack before switching out, while an already passive wall wouldn't really be bothered by Defeatist if it relied on status and utility attacks to wear down the opponent, but could be easily exploited by opponents if it had Color Change. In this limited sense, both abilities are equal in that they would make one Pokemon pretty bad at its job and add nothing of real value to the other, but the reasons why they are bad are vastly different.
Realistically speaking, the only way we could have a Secondary Ability is with something so awful that Color Change would be preferable a majority of the time, factoring in the multitude of different ways that CAP29 can exist, to which the only ability I can confidently say is this broadly awful is Truant. Any other ability is extremely dependent on what our stats, typing, and movepool consist of, stages that we have not gotten to nor have the ability to discuss in any larger capacity. I do not think Truant would add anything meaningful to this project for similar reasons as before. Seeing as the only safe route for a Secondary Ability at this point would have to be Truant, that means that anything besides it or No Ability are unsuitable, and if I had to pick between the two No Ability is leagues better. As our only option for an Ability we can focus all of our efforts in later stages with Color Change in mind without the distractions of a second ability to consider, and allows us to explore the ways Color Change can hinder or benefit CAP29.
In a vacuum, I feel something like Defeatist (halves damage at low health) and Color Change (change typing on hit) both have equally bad outcomes, but depending on the direction we take with CAP29, one can easily end up much better than the other. Consider this example: something fast that employs hit-and-run tactics would be so much better with Color Change than Defeatist as its rarely going to take more than one attack before switching out, while an already passive wall wouldn't really be bothered by Defeatist if it relied on status and utility attacks to wear down the opponent, but could be easily exploited by opponents if it had Color Change. In this limited sense, both abilities are equal in that they would make one Pokemon pretty bad at its job and add nothing of real value to the other, but the reasons why they are bad are vastly different.
Realistically speaking, the only way we could have a Secondary Ability is with something so awful that Color Change would be preferable a majority of the time, factoring in the multitude of different ways that CAP29 can exist, to which the only ability I can confidently say is this broadly awful is Truant. Any other ability is extremely dependent on what our stats, typing, and movepool consist of, stages that we have not gotten to nor have the ability to discuss in any larger capacity. I do not think Truant would add anything meaningful to this project for similar reasons as before. Seeing as the only safe route for a Secondary Ability at this point would have to be Truant, that means that anything besides it or No Ability are unsuitable, and if I had to pick between the two No Ability is leagues better. As our only option for an Ability we can focus all of our efforts in later stages with Color Change in mind without the distractions of a second ability to consider, and allows us to explore the ways Color Change can hinder or benefit CAP29.
This discussion reminds me of Equilibra's Flash Cannon debate - do we include Flash Cannon (when clearly "that'd be used over Doom Desire"), or not? Which better fulfils the concept?
My stance at the time was that the risk wasn't actually a problem (and anyone who says Equilibra didn't fulfil concept is... objectively inaccurate), because I had full faith that CAP had already made a Pokémon capable of using Doom Desire by that point - and it let us prove "we've made a good user of Doom Desire, rather than a Pokémon that just has no other Steel STAB".
The question of adding Illuminate etc. is similar to me - however, there are caveats. The first caveat is conceptual, in that this concept is not dependent on using the Ability over other abilities in a way that Doom Desire's concept was - it's valid for us to say "No thanks!". The second caveat is timing - we collectively went in favour of Flash Cannon during the last competitive step, where we weren't trying to look into the future.
From those experiences + my understanding of the concept, I sort of lean towards the following positions:
In short: If one of the reasons to go for Colour Change is because of it's potential benefits, then there is value in - towards the end of the project - being able to ask if we've managed to find them and bundle them onto CAP29. But to immediately go into Secondary Abilities feels waaaaay too early.
My stance at the time was that the risk wasn't actually a problem (and anyone who says Equilibra didn't fulfil concept is... objectively inaccurate), because I had full faith that CAP had already made a Pokémon capable of using Doom Desire by that point - and it let us prove "we've made a good user of Doom Desire, rather than a Pokémon that just has no other Steel STAB".
The question of adding Illuminate etc. is similar to me - however, there are caveats. The first caveat is conceptual, in that this concept is not dependent on using the Ability over other abilities in a way that Doom Desire's concept was - it's valid for us to say "No thanks!". The second caveat is timing - we collectively went in favour of Flash Cannon during the last competitive step, where we weren't trying to look into the future.
From those experiences + my understanding of the concept, I sort of lean towards the following positions:
- Ruling out a discussion that the concept asks for rubs me the wrong way. See the question below;
Immediately ruling out any Secondary Ability at all is something I think would not be positive overall for discussion. I might be more inclined to agree with an immediate "this is too obvious rule it out" line if we had Defeatist or Slow Start, which are strictly worse than nothing, but I don't think that applies to Colour Change, based on the arguments that were in favour at the time. - If we are to add a secondary ability, it should be the last competitive choice that we make - after movepool, stats, and so on. And we should be perfectly willing to say "No, we don't want any other abilities" at that point if that's suitable for the direction of the concept without thinking of it as a knock against the concept - we should base no part of the CAP on aiming for/against a specific alternative ability.
- Distracting from Colour Change with a second traditionally-negative ability I think makes it less a tightrope for CAP to walk across, as much as it leaves a single fraying thread. I think adding a negative second ability early on would be a distraction for the concept.
In short: If one of the reasons to go for Colour Change is because of it's potential benefits, then there is value in - towards the end of the project - being able to ask if we've managed to find them and bundle them onto CAP29. But to immediately go into Secondary Abilities feels waaaaay too early.
We should absolutely NOT give 29 a secondary ability, the whole argument of giving 29 a flavour ability also seems terrible to me. You see, at this point, we aren't entirely sure how beneficial color change is, so if we find that color change is way more detrimental than we thought of and we give him a useless ability (let's say illuminate) we would make the Mon completely disregard the ability it was build upon, which will result in the entire process being invalidated. Even then, in the perspective of flavour, we are more encouraged to put only color change as 29's ability, as adding a flavour ability when we clearly do not need will lead to unnecessarily confusing flavour.
Edit: after further discussion on discord I think that whatever we decide with the ability would be better left after the competitive stage of the process. Right now we have no incentive to give 29 another negative ability.
Edit: after further discussion on discord I think that whatever we decide with the ability would be better left after the competitive stage of the process. Right now we have no incentive to give 29 another negative ability.
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I want to echo this and partially of what Jordy said. I don’t think it’s the worse idea to revisit the flavor ability idea once the rest of the process has run its course. I think we can make a much clearer idea as to how good of a job we did by then, and it may carve other unique niches. Dogfish44 also brought up a good example with Equilibra’s Doom Desire + Steel STAB. I don’t think we know enough yet to make a confident conclusion. While at the moment I lean towards no secondary ability at all, I appreciate the sentiment of being patient and seeing the rest of the process play out first to make a more informed decision.
in my opinion cap29 should not have a secondary ability as it would defeat the entire point of this concept centering around a pokemon playing around its ''defective ability and would give it a cheap way of doing so
I don't think there's really a reason to put a second ability. If we want our mon to revolve solely around one ability, then keeping it as its only one is the easiest way to not only make it work with it, but also to keep a focus in the current project.
I 100% agree what dogfish says here. Right now we need to hyper focus on Color Change, since only that will allow us to fully understand it and flesh out its redeeming qualities, while trying to minimize its detriment to CAP29. ANY Additional ability right now would distract from this goal and be detrimental to the process and our understanding of our chosen ability.
But as the quoted question from quziels process goes to show, comparing our detrimental ability to another ability is an intended part of the concept and while we don’t necessarily have to answer all questions posed by the concept, I believe it would be beneficial for our learning process to have a -in scientific terms - control group, to which we can contrast our finalized product.
I think we should not shy away from this, especially since now -with the playtest - we have the tool to quickly counteract unwanted or even unhealthy elements within our CAP designs.
That’s why we should look into adding a secondary ability (be it competitive or flavor) again later in the process.
Reading up on the discussion: I think people are divided on how to fulfill this concept. Should this Pokemon be a Pokemon that works around its bad ability, or should this Pokemon work with its bad ability? And most people's initial reaction is that it should work around the bad ability.
If we want to make this Pokemon work with the bad ability, I wanna echo what Dogfish is saying from a process sort of view. In this case, we should be given the chance to fail. Otherwise, we're limiting ourselves from learning if we truly made the bad ability worthwhile. Being able to answer that question is much more rewarding than cutting ourselves off from being able to test it.
If we want to make this Pokemon work with the bad ability, I wanna echo what Dogfish is saying from a process sort of view. In this case, we should be given the chance to fail. Otherwise, we're limiting ourselves from learning if we truly made the bad ability worthwhile. Being able to answer that question is much more rewarding than cutting ourselves off from being able to test it.
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I don't think there should be a secondary ability for CAP 29.
There is an argument that people have tried pushing w.r.t. Equilibra having Flash Cannon alongside Doom Desire to justify giving CAP 29 a NCA; this is an apples to oranges comparison that doesn't deserve to hold any weight here. In my eyes, anyone that thinks or thought Doom Desire was a bad move and that Equilibra thus needed something to fall back on was just not experienced enough with delay moves during the creation process to understand 1) their actual viability and 2) how the presence of a delay move dramatically changes gameplay for those couple turns. There is no inherent need to establish a guardrail of sorts for CAP 29 just to gauge whether Color Change was successfully created around; it should be evident by the end whether or not CAP 29 is any good. Sure, we can look at this (the addition of a NCA) as a way to prevent overcompensation, a la Equilibra, but I feel that isn't overly necessary; I think that designing CAP 29 to successfully use Color Change should be the goal as opposed to seeing whether it uses Color Change over a useless ability.
There is an argument that people have tried pushing w.r.t. Equilibra having Flash Cannon alongside Doom Desire to justify giving CAP 29 a NCA; this is an apples to oranges comparison that doesn't deserve to hold any weight here. In my eyes, anyone that thinks or thought Doom Desire was a bad move and that Equilibra thus needed something to fall back on was just not experienced enough with delay moves during the creation process to understand 1) their actual viability and 2) how the presence of a delay move dramatically changes gameplay for those couple turns. There is no inherent need to establish a guardrail of sorts for CAP 29 just to gauge whether Color Change was successfully created around; it should be evident by the end whether or not CAP 29 is any good. Sure, we can look at this (the addition of a NCA) as a way to prevent overcompensation, a la Equilibra, but I feel that isn't overly necessary; I think that designing CAP 29 to successfully use Color Change should be the goal as opposed to seeing whether it uses Color Change over a useless ability.
D2TheW
Amadán
Going against the grain a bit here, but I believe that it is important that we do make a decision on whether or not we should have a secondary ability. I'd also like to preface this by saying that I am firmly against a secondary defective ability and since I've seen no support for such, I will be discussing secondary abilities on the assumption that they'll be non competitive abilities (nca)
Before that though, I agree with Quan that we should first come to a decision on whether we intend to create cap 29 with the intention of it working around colour change or with colour change.
If we choose the former than I am of the opinion that we shouldn't have any secondary ability, even if it as an nca. Realistically, it's not that hard to create a mon that can work around colour change. You build something like Magearna, something with good stats, a defensive typing that let's it hit the field often, some stupid moves to throw around, particularly coverage moves as we'll frequently lose stab and maybe some set up options and recovery. Magearna would obviously be worse off with colour change but it would likely still be a functional mon in the cap meta. However, if it had to choose between cc and a nca like illuminate, nine times out of ten it would simply choose the nca, for consistency if nothing else.
Now, if we choose the latter option and try to work with colour change, (which is the more interesting option in my opinion and also seems more popular), then this question about a secondary ability is more important. Creating cap 29 is a fundamentally different process if we have a secondary nca or not.
No secondary: A more open process, with more freedom to package generically good traits with some traits that help take advantage of ccs unique attributes.
With a secondary: A process that is more focused on ccs advantages and squeezing every last drop of potential out of it. Less generically good traits as they would lead to the magearna situation above where it would usually just prefer the nca. In this version we are making a cap that actually wants to use cc, not one that has to. This is my preferred option rn fwiw.
The secondary nca focuses the project more and, as has been pointed out, acts as a measuring stick to see whether or not we've succeeded at the end. Whether or not this measuring stick is a good thing is clearly up for debate, but my point is that we need to make a decision on it now or at least soon because knowing whether or not there will be a measuring stick, during the process, will actively change the process. I am of the opinion that it's a good thing but what matters is that there's a decision made now, not at the end of the process as some people have said in this thread.
TL;DR:
- We need to make a decision on working around colour change or with colour change.
- After that we need to decide now, not later, whether or not we'll have a secondary nca.
Before that though, I agree with Quan that we should first come to a decision on whether we intend to create cap 29 with the intention of it working around colour change or with colour change.
If we choose the former than I am of the opinion that we shouldn't have any secondary ability, even if it as an nca. Realistically, it's not that hard to create a mon that can work around colour change. You build something like Magearna, something with good stats, a defensive typing that let's it hit the field often, some stupid moves to throw around, particularly coverage moves as we'll frequently lose stab and maybe some set up options and recovery. Magearna would obviously be worse off with colour change but it would likely still be a functional mon in the cap meta. However, if it had to choose between cc and a nca like illuminate, nine times out of ten it would simply choose the nca, for consistency if nothing else.
Now, if we choose the latter option and try to work with colour change, (which is the more interesting option in my opinion and also seems more popular), then this question about a secondary ability is more important. Creating cap 29 is a fundamentally different process if we have a secondary nca or not.
No secondary: A more open process, with more freedom to package generically good traits with some traits that help take advantage of ccs unique attributes.
With a secondary: A process that is more focused on ccs advantages and squeezing every last drop of potential out of it. Less generically good traits as they would lead to the magearna situation above where it would usually just prefer the nca. In this version we are making a cap that actually wants to use cc, not one that has to. This is my preferred option rn fwiw.
The secondary nca focuses the project more and, as has been pointed out, acts as a measuring stick to see whether or not we've succeeded at the end. Whether or not this measuring stick is a good thing is clearly up for debate, but my point is that we need to make a decision on it now or at least soon because knowing whether or not there will be a measuring stick, during the process, will actively change the process. I am of the opinion that it's a good thing but what matters is that there's a decision made now, not at the end of the process as some people have said in this thread.
TL;DR:
- We need to make a decision on working around colour change or with colour change.
- After that we need to decide now, not later, whether or not we'll have a secondary nca.
Adding a NCA just to prove that it wont be used seems to have 0 reward to it whatsoever. Its not adding anything to the mon if its successfully avoided, and lots of bad things if we do add it- at best, 10% of ladder players will be using NCA anyway, as well as we're forced to break precedent of Color Change being a standalone ability like Comatose and Stance Change. At worst, its a better ability (either situationally or always) and the concept exploration is wasted whenever its used. Bear in mind there are plenty of valid ways (probably almost all of them) to explore Color Change without making it fully superior to a NCA, and its hard to ever make it fully superior thanks to its built-in, near unavoidable flaws.
You can get basically all of the benefits of adding the NCA at the end by simply comparing the NCA to Color Change at the end of the product or testing it on the test server, and holding yourself to the principles of wanting to outclass a NCA throughout the process. You dont need to tack it on permanently to have that discussion/make that comparison. And there's nothing pressuring us to add a secondary ability like with Libra being pressured to have Flash Cannon due to the vast majority of FE Steel types having Flash Cannon as well as it being on pro-concept sets. Its not like the regular NCA that fills out the expected 3rd ability that most Pokemon have- NCA is always anti-concept here. Its never a neutral component to the concept as it replaces the concept. Just like adding anti-concept, viable qualities to other CAPs, its not something we should start doing now.
You can get basically all of the benefits of adding the NCA at the end by simply comparing the NCA to Color Change at the end of the product or testing it on the test server, and holding yourself to the principles of wanting to outclass a NCA throughout the process. You dont need to tack it on permanently to have that discussion/make that comparison. And there's nothing pressuring us to add a secondary ability like with Libra being pressured to have Flash Cannon due to the vast majority of FE Steel types having Flash Cannon as well as it being on pro-concept sets. Its not like the regular NCA that fills out the expected 3rd ability that most Pokemon have- NCA is always anti-concept here. Its never a neutral component to the concept as it replaces the concept. Just like adding anti-concept, viable qualities to other CAPs, its not something we should start doing now.
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tl;dr:
CAP29 should work with CC
CAP29 should have no secondary ability
However, practically every mon with a bad ability that has been viable in a tier worked because their stats, movepool and general viability is not offset by their bad ability: ADV Slaking, ORAS Archeops and USM Golispod were good and worked in spite their ability rather than using it. In other words, they worked around their ability, rather than using their ability.
I do understand why most people want CAP29 to work around the bad ability, we really don't know whether such a concept can even work without making an OP or viable mon that is hindered by its ability. If we choose to have the mon work around Colour Change, the process is much easier rather than making the brawler work with its bad ability.
If we make CAP29 synergistic with CC, we have to accept the chance of failure that such a concept may not even work in any way. Moreover, we have to ask ourselves whether this mon is an experiment that may fail horrendously or an attempt to make a mon that is CAP viable and works around the ability.
Personally, I want to make a mon that works with the ability, as I believe that
Given my take on the matter, I also think that a secondary ability, even something like Illuminate or Pickup, ruins all the work of this concept. We should push CC to be an integral part of CAP29, rather than a burden of sorts. Having Illuminate completely removes this aspect of the mon, so I, alongside basically all of the thread before me, is firmly anti-Secondary ability
CAP29 should work with CC
CAP29 should have no secondary ability
I feel working with the bad ability is a lot harder, but it will be truer to the concept of CAP29.
However, practically every mon with a bad ability that has been viable in a tier worked because their stats, movepool and general viability is not offset by their bad ability: ADV Slaking, ORAS Archeops and USM Golispod were good and worked in spite their ability rather than using it. In other words, they worked around their ability, rather than using their ability.
I do understand why most people want CAP29 to work around the bad ability, we really don't know whether such a concept can even work without making an OP or viable mon that is hindered by its ability. If we choose to have the mon work around Colour Change, the process is much easier rather than making the brawler work with its bad ability.
If we make CAP29 synergistic with CC, we have to accept the chance of failure that such a concept may not even work in any way. Moreover, we have to ask ourselves whether this mon is an experiment that may fail horrendously or an attempt to make a mon that is CAP viable and works around the ability.
Personally, I want to make a mon that works with the ability, as I believe that
- A concept employing CC is far more of an ingenious concept than a mon that basically ignores CC. Employing CC in a way that isn't gimmicky requires one to really rack one's brains. Is CAP29 going to use CC to switch in and using its resistances to act as a counter attack, or using CAP29 as a wall, similar to the Kecleon in ADV NU. The possibilities are limitless here; it's very very unique as a theorymon
- I believe the goal of CAP29 should be and always was to see if a mon that is viable with a trash ability, a concept which hasn't been explored in the main series at all, rather than making another Zapdos or Swampert or Zarude, a mon that works well without an ability. Their stats, movepools and typing works fine enough to not really mind the lack of a usable ability. They'd be viable if they didn't even have an ability altogether. A mon that works with a bad ability to be more effective than what is seen at first glance (aka a mon that works with their ability) has the potential to greatly reward the trainer using them by allowing them completely change usual dynamics by capitalizing on aggressive but calculated plays and hard reads (
this is why a good defensive typing in order to make CAP29 easier to switch in is preferredpoll jumping). This is the crux of CAP29, using CC in ingenious ways rather than ignoring it altogether and hoping it doesn't screw you over a la Defeatist.
- An ability like this might not even work out in a competitive way. Is the chance of failure something that we are all fine with? This is a genuine question, is pumping resources into such a mon that could be hit or miss worth it?
This is what CAP is really all about, making new concepts and seeing how they'd actually work in practice. From what i have seen in my frankly limited gameplay with the CAP metagame, Kitsunoh, Auromoth and M-Crucibelle have failed their goal of their concept to some degree, either due to the meta not being well suited for them or them simply being too OP where their skill accept is basically negated. And that's absolutely fine imo,we have to learn from our mistakes.
All of this acceptance of failure is fine, but we really have to ask if this is something that we are fine with sinking resources into it. I'm more of a theory guy, so I don't actually have much of an idea about this, which is why I am being cautious instead of loudly proclaiming that we MUST have CAP29 work with CC, I want to hear the opposing arguments, to improve the quality of CAP29
All of this acceptance of failure is fine, but we really have to ask if this is something that we are fine with sinking resources into it. I'm more of a theory guy, so I don't actually have much of an idea about this, which is why I am being cautious instead of loudly proclaiming that we MUST have CAP29 work with CC, I want to hear the opposing arguments, to improve the quality of CAP29
- Making a Swampert is far easier than making an Aeigaslash, or in other words, making a mon that can ignore the ability is leaps and bounds easier than making a mon that centers around an ability. Alongside the former point, it's just a lot more stable of a concept to have a mon that works around CC.
Given my take on the matter, I also think that a secondary ability, even something like Illuminate or Pickup, ruins all the work of this concept. We should push CC to be an integral part of CAP29, rather than a burden of sorts. Having Illuminate completely removes this aspect of the mon, so I, alongside basically all of the thread before me, is firmly anti-Secondary ability
Frankly speaking, at this point we don't have much, if any information of how good Color Change is, as it is on one pokemon that has never been above NU ever, and got Protean in gen 6, which completely displaces Color Change (The only real info we have there is that Color Change is worse than Protean there).
With other abilities (Defeatist, Slow Start) I don't think we'd even be having this discussion as they're so clearly worse than a NCA, but with Color Change we simply do not have much information at all. At this point there simply is not enough information to know whether CC fits into the category of "worse than a NCA on everything" or "worse than a NCA on most things" and adding a NCA at this point is saying that it falls into the latter category before examining it. That is not to say that we cannot have a viable product out of it, but simply that making such a strong statement at this stage is foolish. We simply do not have the information to know whether a pokemon that is built for Color Change in every stage would prefer Color Change or Illuminate, and making that decision now will worsen the process.
Do not add a NCA to this pokemon.
At the same time, delaying the decision to the end of the pokemon is, well, still a fairly foolish idea. We should ideally be able to create a balanced pokemon with Color Change, and adding a NCA at the end is functionally just a buff (how minor or great will be decided by the process), which we could just buff it in a manner that works with Color Change rather than one antithetical to Color Change.
With other abilities (Defeatist, Slow Start) I don't think we'd even be having this discussion as they're so clearly worse than a NCA, but with Color Change we simply do not have much information at all. At this point there simply is not enough information to know whether CC fits into the category of "worse than a NCA on everything" or "worse than a NCA on most things" and adding a NCA at this point is saying that it falls into the latter category before examining it. That is not to say that we cannot have a viable product out of it, but simply that making such a strong statement at this stage is foolish. We simply do not have the information to know whether a pokemon that is built for Color Change in every stage would prefer Color Change or Illuminate, and making that decision now will worsen the process.
Do not add a NCA to this pokemon.
At the same time, delaying the decision to the end of the pokemon is, well, still a fairly foolish idea. We should ideally be able to create a balanced pokemon with Color Change, and adding a NCA at the end is functionally just a buff (how minor or great will be decided by the process), which we could just buff it in a manner that works with Color Change rather than one antithetical to Color Change.
CAP 29 should not have any abilities outside of Color Change.
Our concept is to make the most out of a negative ability (which Im excited Color Change won). Trying to build the CAP out of 2 abilities sounds like a massive pain. If you give the mon a useless flavor ability like Friend Guard, people can just ignore Color Change/concept by picking a flavor ability.
This CAP should only have 1 ability and that is Color Change.
Our concept is to make the most out of a negative ability (which Im excited Color Change won). Trying to build the CAP out of 2 abilities sounds like a massive pain. If you give the mon a useless flavor ability like Friend Guard, people can just ignore Color Change/concept by picking a flavor ability.
This CAP should only have 1 ability and that is Color Change.
I feel the need to intervene, because Quanyails posted a "reframing" of my question above that users are now starting to respond to. As the Topic Leader, I worded my question in the OP precisely how I meant it, and the conversation that has blossomed from it has been awesome. I think Jordy brings up a really smart point about NCA that is worth us discussing the pros and cons of in this thread. That's the topic I'd like to focus on for now: whether or not CAP29 should have a secondary ability at all, so thank you for those of you who are choosing to keep on-topic. There is a lot to unpack from that question alone (as you can see from the 40+ replies we've already had), which is why I posed solely that question.
However, I feel some clarification is in order. I personally didn't think asking "are we going to work with Color Change or around Color Change" was a particularly interesting question, because we've already had that discussion in Concept Submissions, Concept Assessment 1, and Primary Ability Discussion. Our current operating view of CAP29 is that we are to work with Color Change, because anything else would be us circumventing the concept. We've been through this: a Slow Start mon with big Special Attack would be circumventing the concept; a Truant mon with Entrainment would be circumventing the concept; a mon with a "good" ability that just doesn't have the tools to use it would be circumventing the concept. Making a Color Change CAP29 that is strong/broken enough that it completely ignores its ability is antithetical to the original concept, and not in line with any of the previous discussions we've had.
If anyone disagrees with this line of thought, or you think I'm being presumptive, do let me know, because I'm happy to pose it as a discussion question. I thought we were all on the same page, but if anyone truly thinks we should make CAP29 work around Color Change in order to be viable, sound off. My future questions (starting tonight) will pertain to what advantages and disadvantages CAP29 has now that we know its ability is Color Change, specifically in relation to other viable mons in this metagame from the CAP VR thread. But otherwise, I'd like to continue moving forward discussing whether or not we should have a secondary ability. Thank you!
However, I feel some clarification is in order. I personally didn't think asking "are we going to work with Color Change or around Color Change" was a particularly interesting question, because we've already had that discussion in Concept Submissions, Concept Assessment 1, and Primary Ability Discussion. Our current operating view of CAP29 is that we are to work with Color Change, because anything else would be us circumventing the concept. We've been through this: a Slow Start mon with big Special Attack would be circumventing the concept; a Truant mon with Entrainment would be circumventing the concept; a mon with a "good" ability that just doesn't have the tools to use it would be circumventing the concept. Making a Color Change CAP29 that is strong/broken enough that it completely ignores its ability is antithetical to the original concept, and not in line with any of the previous discussions we've had.
If anyone disagrees with this line of thought, or you think I'm being presumptive, do let me know, because I'm happy to pose it as a discussion question. I thought we were all on the same page, but if anyone truly thinks we should make CAP29 work around Color Change in order to be viable, sound off. My future questions (starting tonight) will pertain to what advantages and disadvantages CAP29 has now that we know its ability is Color Change, specifically in relation to other viable mons in this metagame from the CAP VR thread. But otherwise, I'd like to continue moving forward discussing whether or not we should have a secondary ability. Thank you!
This guard rail thing makes no sense to me. In the context of CAP 29, traditionally non-competitive abilities like Ball Fetch are not only useable, they're incredible. We run an incredibly high risk of failing to make them worse than Color Change, because Color Change is very bad. We're likely forced out by any mon clicking U-turn, for instance. Even if we manage to make Color Change more useable, the metagame could easily shift in favor of mons that could more readily abuse it (they are not few and far between), and then Ball Fetch becomes standard and we have utterly failed our concept.
Do not risk us making CAP29 into Keldeo or whatever (useless but not hindering ability). That's not what we're here to do.
Do not risk us making CAP29 into Keldeo or whatever (useless but not hindering ability). That's not what we're here to do.
I think we shouldn't have a second ability. The only way to keep to concept is if the second ability is equally bad, which then leads to us having to do extra, more complicated work to make the mon viable, since we'd have to consider both bad abilities during the process. I think our process will be more streamlined and easier to understand if we leave it at Color Change.
You know, I think it’s really interesting how the discussion has changed here. I did mention earlier that I’d support a secondary ability but it was mostly mentioned in passing, but I think giving CAP 29 No Competitive Ability could be more pro-concept than a lot of you realize. I personally am in the camp that we’d be making CAP 29 work with Color Change. Remember, the original concept of CAP 29 is that it manages to maybe even be better because of its negative ability as opposed to being good in spite of it. I think that NCA would help us have a metric to ensure that CAP 29 prefers Color Change. I think that designing the CAP while actively trying to make Color Change sets outclass itself with NCA sets is about as pro-concept as it gets. That’s just my two cents.
I understand what you're saying, but you're operating with the base assumption that making Color Change better than an NCA is possible. What if it's just not? We've never had a useable Color Change mon. Situations will absolutely exist where the mon is better off for having Color Change. But situations will absolutely also exist where it's worse off for it. At this point we just don't know if we can make the ability better than an NCA, and if we can't, we no longer have a mon that uses a defective ability, and we've utterly failed the concept. To my mind, it's just too risky for relatively little payoff.
To decide whether we should have a Secondary Ability and/or a Flavor Ability, I think we need to remember a few fundamentals of Create-A-Pokemon:
Our Concept is NOT "Let's make a Color Change mon". Color Change was the first step and first choice we have made in building around a concept centered on defective abilities. And although the Concept does mention "Ability" in the singular, not the plural -- I think we are free to elect to have multiple abilities, if we want. That's kinda the whole reason the TL made this thread.
But whatever abilities we choose, they need to align with the Concept, which means they need to be "defective". If we choose a Secondary Ability that is "not defective", then it is anti-Concept. If we choose a Secondary Ability that is "less defective (ie. better) than Color Change", then it isn't a Secondary Ability.
Can we choose a Secondary Ability that is defective, but useful, without muddying the water too much for Color Change? I don't know. I tend to think any other defective-but-potentially-useful abilities out there will require many other steps to align with it. And trying to juggle that with the needs of Color Change is an awfully tall order. Maybe an ability like Mimicry could fit in, because it is in the same space of Type-changing and all that. But let's be honest, are there really enough abilities out there that fit that bill, to even make a real Secondary Ability poll?
I'm fine with having a discussion about viable Secondary Abilities, and I'm fine with having the discussion later in the process, if that's what people want -- but if we know the result will be a "poll" of, at most, one or two real choices, then why even take the time for it? If it's a good discussion and we decide there isn't enough meat on the bone to proceed to a poll, that's fine too. Because good discussions are good. But discussing and choosing (ie. polling) when there really is no choice, that's bad.
I think it will all depend on how well we are able to make a pokemon that really WANTS to run Color Change. If we don't achieve that, then Secondary and Flavor abilities aren't gonna happen. Well... perhaps I should say they won't happen IF we are being true to CAP principles.
We try to build a cohesive pokemon, and that "cohesion" is provided by the chosen Concept. Although our pokemon is built in steps, EVERY step is expected to enhance or help us achieve the Concept. Sometimes, after the fact, we might realize we made a choice that turned out to not help the concept or even contradict it completely. But we NEVER make an intentional anti-Concept choice.
The Secondary Ability on all CAP pokemon is expected to be something that helps achieve the Concept, albeit with lesser or more niche competitive capability than the Primary Ability. If we choose a Secondary Ability that is competitively better than the Primary Ability, then it ISN'T a Secondary Ability at all. Also, if we intentionally choose a Secondary Ability that is so bad that it will never be used competitively, then it ISN'T a Secondary Ability because it isn't being chosen to achieve our competitive Concept.
The Flavor Ability/NCA on all CAP pokemon is expected to be something that is almost never used competitively. Typically, the reason the Flavor Ability isn't used competitively, is because it doesn't have any substantial impact in battle. But, in this case, if the fact that a Flavor Ability doesn't have any meaningful battle impact actually makes it useful competitively (because it is in some ways better than the negatives of our Primary Ability), then it ISN'T a Flavor Ability/NCA.
Our Concept is NOT "Let's make a Color Change mon". Color Change was the first step and first choice we have made in building around a concept centered on defective abilities. And although the Concept does mention "Ability" in the singular, not the plural -- I think we are free to elect to have multiple abilities, if we want. That's kinda the whole reason the TL made this thread.
But whatever abilities we choose, they need to align with the Concept, which means they need to be "defective". If we choose a Secondary Ability that is "not defective", then it is anti-Concept. If we choose a Secondary Ability that is "less defective (ie. better) than Color Change", then it isn't a Secondary Ability.
Can we choose a Secondary Ability that is defective, but useful, without muddying the water too much for Color Change? I don't know. I tend to think any other defective-but-potentially-useful abilities out there will require many other steps to align with it. And trying to juggle that with the needs of Color Change is an awfully tall order. Maybe an ability like Mimicry could fit in, because it is in the same space of Type-changing and all that. But let's be honest, are there really enough abilities out there that fit that bill, to even make a real Secondary Ability poll?
I'm fine with having a discussion about viable Secondary Abilities, and I'm fine with having the discussion later in the process, if that's what people want -- but if we know the result will be a "poll" of, at most, one or two real choices, then why even take the time for it? If it's a good discussion and we decide there isn't enough meat on the bone to proceed to a poll, that's fine too. Because good discussions are good. But discussing and choosing (ie. polling) when there really is no choice, that's bad.
I think it will all depend on how well we are able to make a pokemon that really WANTS to run Color Change. If we don't achieve that, then Secondary and Flavor abilities aren't gonna happen. Well... perhaps I should say they won't happen IF we are being true to CAP principles.
I agree with Doug fully on the basic argument that any second or third ability that is not itself defective (and we ruled out NCAs as not being defective) is anti-concept. The ONLY option that should be getting discussed at all is whether we can feasibly create a CAP that has 2+ defective abilities, and there I think the answer is no.
This is partially because secondary abilities should not be intended to outshine primary abilities. Therefore any ability that is less detrimental to a Pokemon will inherently improve it. Since Color Change is really quite bad, that leaves open precious few abilities that are even worse, and thus even harder to design around. Frankly I think it's impossible, and we should commit to having just this one ability.
This is partially because secondary abilities should not be intended to outshine primary abilities. Therefore any ability that is less detrimental to a Pokemon will inherently improve it. Since Color Change is really quite bad, that leaves open precious few abilities that are even worse, and thus even harder to design around. Frankly I think it's impossible, and we should commit to having just this one ability.
I don't believe that the presence of a secondary ability should be used as the yardstick to determine whether our concept is successful. It is nothing like Flash Cannon in Equilibra's process, which even then I don't think is a productive way to think about it because as we know, it has always been possible to run both because they provide different effects and impact despite sharing a typing. In this case, it is a purely binary choice that is effectively an indictment on whether or not Color Change is actually bad, which we have already decided it is by the very nature of voting for it as our bad ability.
Even if we are to successfully design a Pokemon to utilise Color Change, the unreliability of the ability to work how we want it to might make a secondary NCA more appealing for consistency and completely eradicate the points of our discussion without offering any tangible pro-concept benefit. As quziel said, Color Change is very hard to gauge because it is exclusive to an NU Pokemon, and providing ourselves with a way to circumvent it strikes me as accepting that we won't be able to work with the ability meaningfully. It severely restricts our power budget as we will no longer be able to safely explore things such as a vast movepool to compensate for the loss of STAB, or a potent defensive typing that we know we will have to lose.
Although some seem to be arguing that giving CAP 29 these sorts of tools are 'working around the ability,' I believe it is precisely the opposite, really these discussioms are going to be invaluable in ensuring that we can maximise the benefits to use Color Change, a pretty decisively negative ability. If it means making a Pokemon that looks strong in other areas, that shouldn't be considered a problem because it is always going to be held back by its negative ability.
Now as far as choosing another defective ability, as others have pointed out, very few if any from the slate synergise with Color Change whatsoever and will effectively ruin every other meaningful stage by forcing us to consider two wildly different drawbacks. Color Change is more than complex enough to guide our project without needlessly introducing another element.
Even if we are to successfully design a Pokemon to utilise Color Change, the unreliability of the ability to work how we want it to might make a secondary NCA more appealing for consistency and completely eradicate the points of our discussion without offering any tangible pro-concept benefit. As quziel said, Color Change is very hard to gauge because it is exclusive to an NU Pokemon, and providing ourselves with a way to circumvent it strikes me as accepting that we won't be able to work with the ability meaningfully. It severely restricts our power budget as we will no longer be able to safely explore things such as a vast movepool to compensate for the loss of STAB, or a potent defensive typing that we know we will have to lose.
Although some seem to be arguing that giving CAP 29 these sorts of tools are 'working around the ability,' I believe it is precisely the opposite, really these discussioms are going to be invaluable in ensuring that we can maximise the benefits to use Color Change, a pretty decisively negative ability. If it means making a Pokemon that looks strong in other areas, that shouldn't be considered a problem because it is always going to be held back by its negative ability.
Now as far as choosing another defective ability, as others have pointed out, very few if any from the slate synergise with Color Change whatsoever and will effectively ruin every other meaningful stage by forcing us to consider two wildly different drawbacks. Color Change is more than complex enough to guide our project without needlessly introducing another element.
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